authoritie in causes of the Churche that without checke of our Soueraigne yea with her Maiesties good lyking wee doubte not we heere maintaine and defende the same by the scriptures and ouerthrowe your proude Prelates vsurpation thereby Yee shoulde therefore haue done that heere dealing with her 〈◊〉 at least which you and your Author going by supposition lightly neuer doe to wit haue shewed who this supreme Pastour is and haue proued the Pope to bee hee In the meane whyle as we graunt the supreme chiefe Pastor in Christ his Church supreme and chiefe authoritie in causes of the same so insteede of your Romame Pope wee ascribe that title and office to Jesus Christe alone by the warrant of GOD his ho-spirite and word which call him Archpastor or chiefe and Supreme Pastour and finde not that title imparted in the newe Testament to any in Churche Ministerie much lesse to the Pope of Rome If you nowe finde as good warrant for your Pope in God his booke lay it vs downe and wee wil yeelde But that neither haue you hitherto done neither yet shall yee be able to doe wrangle as long and as much as yee will your best daies are past For the rest wee reporte vs to any indifferent bodie whether it bee more to God his glorie and beseeming God his people the Churche to holde with the Scriptures that Iesus Christe alone the sonne of God is the Arche and chiefe Shepheard or without warrant of Scripture to giue the same to the Pope Nowe Syr and when the Lawes of this Realme giue to the Princes heere their Soueraigntie and require the subiects to acknowledge the same in this Church and Realme and the Kinges and Queenes from time to time challenge and accept the same neither doe the one professe to giue nor the other to take Gods place or Christes from them nor yet so much as to incroch vpō the Church ministerie in taking authoritie to Preache administer Sacraments and execute other Church Ministeries functions yea by meanes of your malicious interpretation the contrary is protested but according to dutie from God to maintaine and see those thinges doone by Pastours and suche as to whome those charges likewise from God do appertaine not admitting therewhilest which is your griefe the immunities that the Popes aforetime haue giuen Cleargie men in exempting them from the ciuil authoritie and iurisdiction What haue faithfull subiects heerein to repine at What haue they to plaine of Yeelde with vs vnto it and yee shall finde wee haue all great cause to praise God for her Maiestie and for ciuill authoritie wee denie then that any forraigne Prince and Potentate Ecclesiasticall or Ciuil if yee will is aboue her Maiestie and her people in these her dominions in any manner of causes or haue to deale here but vnder her by her leaue liking And to God his glory our cōforts haue we still w t all thākfulnes to obserue that her Maiestie doeth not sit in mens consciences nor professe to make lawes to binde the same as your supreme pastour doth but leaueth cōscience to God Christ his spirite and worde to be ruled and framed thereby without further pressing the same then the expresse woordè of God doth in so much that for her Maiesties owne respect in matters 〈◊〉 vnto her soule and conscience she yeeldeth her selfe obediently to heare receyue and obey as euery other christian the voice of God and Christ speaking vnto her in y e holy scriptures by true pastours and other ministers meere Church gouernours leauing to them there seuerall charges whole without diminishing any part therof as reason is Nowe sir if the Pope and Popelings namely her Maiesties natural borne subiects especially by their vnnatural styrres to the danger of her Royall person and the state of the Church and Realme haue caused any lawes to be made that be preiudiciall to their attempts let them thanke themselues and leaue their busie and perillous practises neyther pretend conscience where no good consciēce cā be nor thinke y t the Prince hath to giue ouer her Royal prerogatiues or to altar the state for their pleasure this is the very state of this matter If this can not call you home nor content you we say further that the supreme pastour yee haue made choise of for it is not hard to guesse at your meaning though your wordes be doubtfull is a woolfe or woorse then a wolfe To giue your Pope supreme authority in this Church besides that it is treason against her Maiestie and the state it is to commit the poore lambes to no better then the rauening wolues keeping Howe many good lambes hee and his whelpes deuoured here in a very fewe yeeres when he had last to doe with this sheepefolde the memory and smart is yet freshe and before 〈◊〉 eyes The more haue we to praise God for our dread soueraigne y e in tender care of God his sheepe and lambs and her maiesties shee hath eased our neckes and shoulders of that yoke and hell like bondage Besides this M. Howlet where you giue to the Pope as supreame Pastour supreame authoritie in causes of the Churche yee had neede to explayne this some what playner for your owne religions sake and those of your side as whether the Pope bee aboue the Counsell or the Counsell aboue the Pope Also what ye call Churche causes and whether yee denie his supremacie aboue Emperours Kinges and so foorth in other then Churche causes or yee subiecte him to them Whether as Peter his Successour yee giue him all Peter his Patrimonie and priueleges c. and so because as one Pope sayeth and your Cannon lawe approoueth Christ committed to blessed Peter no where in deede the right both of worldly and heauenly Empire will yee abridge that or no What should I speake of your Reliques yee may say of all as yee doe of one a seely paire of beades seely and single stuffe surely Why make yee such accompt of this seely ware that is but tromperie and trashe cast such baggage from you and there is an ende of all troubles for that Yee talke of the Catholike religion and of your owne religion saying my religion Lieth the Catholike religion and yours in these pointes in deede M. Howlet yee heere name will yee needes lie in perpetuall prison leese goods landes and life for the same After by eareshrift to your Ghostly father yee bee discharged of lawfull and duetifull obedience to our Soueraigne as vice gerent in God his place to whom yee owe obedience for conscience sake as to God him selfe whose roome she possesseth as the substitute and Angel of God thus speake ye some tymes to yeelde the same to a Priest and proude prelate to a forrainer and forerunner to Antichrist if not himselfe rather to the Pope of Rome that hath nothing to doe with Englishe subiectes after this inuerted and peruerted othe and bowe You call it your reconciliation Lieth your religion
Councell No verily Let matter with matter saith he cause with cause Reason with reason pleade by the authorities of the scriptures not proper witnesses of euery bodie but common to both c. This am I the bolder with the Reader to set downe that we may see your skill and trust in citing the fathers If one should followe all he should make great volumes which I doubt whether for your pleasures it bee necessarie For the diuels talke with Christ how I pray you did our 〈◊〉 confute him was it not by the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 afore I sayde Augustine did the heretike Yes yes still and all by the scriptures so necessary and profitable 〈◊〉 are they say or thinke you what you will Though we finde not for that which followeth the wordes in Hierome where ye sende vs to seeke them yet because it may be the fault of the Printer I presse it not you shoulde haue prooued and shewed vs to be heretikes before ye should haue applied that to our seruice supposition is a bare proofe and serueth not The strange howling as of wolues and bellowing noyse of mad Bullockes that in your Synagogues you make by your piping and singing in a strange tongue in that you call your diuine seruice seemeth to bee liuely expressed by Hierome both in this sentence and elsewhere also when vppon these wordes of the Prophet Amos Take from me the confused noyse of thy Hymnes I will not heare the musicke of thy Organes that worde doeth Hierome set downe according to the Septuagints translation The Prayer sayth he of the Iewes and the Psalmes whiche they sing in their Synagogues and the heretikes curious and set hymne or prayer as one would say artificially done with descant and quauering is a trouble vnto the Lord that I may so speake it is the grunting of a hog and the braying of Asses c And in the new Testament vpon these wordes of the Apostle Singing and making melodie vnto the Lord Let them heare saith Hierome whose office it is to sing in the Church that God is to bee sung to not with voice but with heart and that their throate and iawes are not to be annointed and cleered with oyntmēts like players that measure and stagelike noise and songues maye by hearde in the Churche but in feare in deede in knowledge of the scriptures although there be some man as they are wonte to speake of an euell brest or voyce If hee haue good woorkes hee is a sweete singer with God Let the seruant of Christ so sing that not the voyce of the singer but the wordes that are read may delight and please c. Thus much out of Hierome whome ye cite vpon occasion of wolues howling and the bellowing noise of mad bullockes that the reader may see whether the same and the like agree better with your curious pricksong and descant in your latin seruice or with our moderate and plain singing of Dauid his Psalines in the mother tongue Hee that is desirous to see more how fitly your wanton and fleshly melodie or roring rather in your Popish Churches is represented by Hierom. Let him looke vpon Cornelius Agrippa Erasmus Polidore Virgil and such like who euen in our time so great plained of y t vnreasonable brutishe disorder in your popish Churches and namely heere in England for that is by expresse wordes noted of Erasmus Yee cite Augustin here twise together and still of the Donatist Heretikes it was the first place ye cited in the entrance of your discourse how litle to purpose we there examined wee tel you againe again we are neither donatists nor other heretikes that shoulde you haue bent your selfe first to haue prooued that these testimonies might haue seemed to haue beene 〈◊〉 applied as that vnprooued and so is like to remaine they iustly maye nowe bee applyed to you Betweene your two places here alleadged out of Augustine the same Augustine vpon the words of Dauid I cryed vnto the Lorde sayeth well and that to the Donatiste Crye you to the Lorde not to Donatus So say we to you popishe Heretikes Crye to the Lorde not to this Patrone and that which you haue made to your selues not to this canonized Saint of your Popes nor to that whereof some like ynough are farre from heauen and so from helping of you Take the lustie prelate of Englande Your S. Thomas Becket for example if ye will or some such like Saint of your making wee say as Augustine sayde in his dayes according to the perpetual doctrine of the sacred scriptures Crie vnto the Lorde not to any creature wee adde furder with him euen in this place Let no man be thy Lorde for the Lorde hee meaneth in steade of the true Lorde of heauen which vnder the Lorde woulde not bee thy fellowe seruaunt Whether it bee in heauen Let God in prayer be 〈◊〉 per se A as they say Or vppon earth to shut out your Lorde god the Pope and to bring him to bee but a fellowe seruaunt with other Let that God of heauen keep his prerogatiue or else bee you in exalting and setting vp that man of sinne Heretikes with the Donatistes Briefly to shut vp this place finde no fault with our seruice for that it hath the scriptures and put a difference between the Iewes Heretiks and the diuelishe peruerting and abusing the same and the right vse thereof with reuerence to our instruction and learning that through pacience and comfort we may haue hope which is an ende the Apostles setteth vs down the same to be written for Let it in all things be A lanterne to our feete and a light to our path as holy Dauid speaketh For which causes also the same is nowe published and made common vnto vs by her Maiestie and the State Marke the great benefite the Churche of God here hath reaped thereby and still doth and yee shall shewe your selfe besides your impietie to Gods worde very vncharitable and enuious to grudge vs the Scriptures or to reproche the same vnto vs. Nowe whether wee be Heretikes that sticke to the scriptures and to the sincere plaine and sure interpretation therof by themselues that one place may sufficiently expounde another that wee neede not run to men to haue the true sense but to let the holy 〈◊〉 euer expounde himselfe Or you that cannot nor will not bee content with this but call for this doctours exposition that doctours sense and so foorth rouing and running at randon if the worlde may not be iudge yet I pray you let your owne Cannon Lawe be iudge betweene vs Wee must take the sense and meaning of the Truth out of the scriptures themselues sayth Gratian out of Pope Clement And yet furder out of Hierome Whosoeuer otherwise vnderstandeth the scripture then the sense and meaning of the holy Ghost by whom it was written requireth Although he be not departed
by your doctrine And one looke well it will not be harde to finde nine and moe too so shall we haue no ende nor keepe any measure if wee followe you herein Your seuen sacraments as you recken them heere are these Baptisme Confirmation Priesthood Matrimonie Extreme vnction Penance the sacrament of the Altar The grace of Baptisme you leaue vntouched not deniyng but wee enioye it moe of your 〈◊〉 for sacramentes of Christes Church properly to speake doe not wee acknowledge But in steed of your counterfaite sacrament and Idol of the Altar wee haue restored vnto vs the sacrament of the Lords Supper or of the body and blood of Christ instituted by this our good master him selfe As for mariage we esteeme it honourable among all and a bed vndefiled as the Apostle speaketh and say with him on the other side that whore mongers and adulterers God will iudge So then wee repute it as the institution of the holy God and his order to liue in according to his worde in his feare A sacrament as holy Baptisme and the Supper are doe we not repute it to be none depende therein on your doctrine In steede of your 〈◊〉 Priesthood haue wee among vs such Church 〈◊〉 as Christ also hath left vs by his institution and worde as namely Pastours or Ministers of the worde and Gospell In stead of your dumbe ceremonies and Popishe confirmation haue we a continuall Catechising of the youth and ruder sort in the principles of Religion As for your extreeme vnction we shut it out as a thing deuised by your selues for saint Iames place maketh nothing for you If priesthood be a sacrament the other orders lesse and great will claime the like priuiledge euery one so shall we haue a great many moe particular sacramentes in number than seuen and euery one in kinde seuerally from other the sacrament of 〈◊〉 the sacrament of subdeaconship of reading also of exorcisme or coniuring c. Where and when shall we crie ho and stay As euery one here can tell you wee haue visitation of the sicke counsaile and prayers with him and for him to his comfort as the rule of Charitie prescribeth Repentance is continually taught here and perswaded publike confession of sinnes is made in our assemblies vnto God dayly The power and authoritie of binding and loosmg or the keyes as you speake of the church are heere by the ministerie of the worde and preaching as occasion serueth more faithfully and vprightly vsed then with you In steade of your Ashewednesday ashes and displing on mens bare heades and womens bare hands c. we haue some forme of publike discipline and correction though not such and so perfect as were to be wished Nowe let the Godly iudge of the gaine that you bragge is to bee had by the profession of your popishe religion and haunting your Antichristian Synagogue and the losse that you imagine is to be had in the profession of the Gospel and our religion ro in haunting our Church assemblyes you that are blynded partiall and take no tryall of our Church meetinges no maruel though ye corruptly iudge of the whole For the authoritie of the true Church of Christ there is no greate strife betweene vs there is more for your Pope and Popish prelates and Clergie for their appropriating and abusing of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for taking away the key of knowledge neyther entring themselues forbidding them that came in Sauing that euen in the Churches authoritie wee denie that our 〈◊〉 Christ did at his departure as you speake heere leaue all his authoritie with his Church which he had receiued of his father hee hath not resigned his authoritie to any he liueth raigneth and continually guideth and gouerneth his Churche himselfe prouiding for the same as our onely king high priest lawegiuer prince of pastours so forth after a farre better manner than any mortall man can or will performe that office yetin the meane while hee hath appointed vnder him offices and officers such as he thought requisite keeping the Soueraigntie in the Church still to himselfe of which offices and officers yee may see to the Romanes Corinthians Ephesians c. Whose offices are limitted and bounded so as they may not goe without their compasse That which you confesse Christ to haue giuen to his Church let no man take from the Church Let no creature vsurpe ouer the same keep well to the Church that ye here speake of the Churches authoritie Concerning Confession in that place which ye 〈◊〉 out of the Acts or out of your Gratian rather as appeareth you put in of your selfe that they came to the Apostles it is not in the text though your Gratian haue it there was none of the Apostles there but Paul that wee reade of to whomsoeuer the confession was made it was publique as of the fruites it is reported that immediatly many whiche vsed curious artes brought their bookes and burned them before all men You cite vs a long place out of a bastardely booke cast for credite vpon Augustines backe for the former place maketh nothing for auricular confession And yet woulde I the learned reader woulde conferre Gratian and you together from whome you tooke this but you thought good more strongly to confirme it with Hob Nobs authoritie of whom for answere I say as that learned man in his Censor before the same booke sayth A Praters talke neither learned wise nor eloquēt what faces or minds had they y t put vpon vs such writings in Augustines name For the matter of your forged Auricular cōfession to a Ghostly Father that is a popish Priest and so foorth you might haue found that your owne doctors agree not some thinking confession with the mouth to man not necessary for forgiuenes of sinnes some thinking otherwise and good authorities are by your M. Gratian that mooueth the question alleadged against y t kinde of cōfession how euer you doctorlike decide the matter to the contrary as though all the world must goe with you one way that is a Popish way Doeth not your he owne glose vpon Gratian where he bringeth in mens authorities to proue confession as he doth also against it say alleadgeth meaning Gratian for the other parte to witte that sinne is not forgiuen one of yeeres of discretion without confession of the mouth whiche yet sayth the Glosse is false For our Churches doctrine in the matter of confession of sinnes though we condemne your 〈◊〉 order and the butcherly straitnes of reckoning vp all our sinnes particularly in the priestes eare c. Yet with the scriptures wee teach and exhort men to acknowledge their faultes one to another And where either the church publikely or any man priuately is offended there for reconcilement we teach that it is necessary not onely that ones fault bee acknowledged but farder testimonie also giuen of repentance and sorrowe
need to brag of your obedience towards your superiors But while you frame a good scholasticall argument to mainteine your Popish religion that teacheth and practiseth disobedience and rebellion against our common Soueraigne and Queene which will be a good while to I hauing spoken thus much in generall will further and more particularly therewhilest enter to speake of your doctrine and demeanour heerein Then will I so much as shall be necessarie answere to those particulars ye obiect here against vs our religion And yet here entring into a large fielde to rip vp your corrupt doctrine and rebellious demeanour towardes princes there is so much matter to treate of that in suche plentie it is harde to keepe measure to giue ouer and come out againe wherof notwithstanding I must haue special regarde and minde so to doe This haue I to desire you not to bee offended with all If I be any where founde in the matter to vse the same lawe towardes you that you doe towardes vs. For your doctrine therefore of obedience and demeanour also first I must admonishe without you were better that we may not call you that bee the children of the Pope and Popishe religion at this day to the Apostles doctrine and their rule and practise set vs downe in the scriptures at the beginning the things bee too vnequall and we may be no bolder with you then so farre as your Churche teacheth you and your supreme Pastors voyce that is the Pope calleth you herein and yet here fal some good words from you contrary to the rest of your doctrine set vs down in your bookes and your demeanour at this day towardes our soueraigne I heare what glorious shewe your words haue and I see you set vs downe in your margin Rom. 13. Which heauenly doctrine we receiue we teach we stedfast ly holde and practise The Scriptures are the foundation and grounde of our profession we can not we may not we will not refuse them our bookes as publique recordes testifie the same Euery soule must bring euery mothers child of yours to be subiect to our Soueraigne Queene as to the chiefe it is not spoken to lay men as your glose vpō the decretals expoundeth it* But I see you sende vs further in your margin to Saint Thomas and om Doct. that is all your doctors there is a Vide afore it that is a watche worde to looke vpon the matter As for Augustin Chrysostom Ambros. that come after your D. Tho. om Doct. They teache all one doctrine heerein with the Apostles and therefore trying that they say by that rule finding it conformable wee receiue it w t their iust cōmendation They are no Popishe teachers but better expoūders of the scriptures morefaithful sounde in this point the your late schole Doctors bicause M. How bidsvs looke I wish the reader that vnderstandeth Latin to looke and see their Popishe doctrine of the authoritie of a King or Emperour in the Decretalles hee shall see howe the Pope playeth legerdemain falsefieth the Scriptures and doeth worse if worse may bee shewing what spirite hee is ledde with If that chapter and the glose were in English it would lothe any Christian eares And again looke Dist. xcvi And yet many of that age are somewhat more indifferent teachers and dealers than you whot and bad Catholikes bee for the most parte nowe adayes that so grossely folowe the Pope and Poperie that by writings dooings ye stirre him vp and raise sedition against our natural Soueraigne Prince and yours and this State and Realme too vnnaturally vnduetifully and vnchristianly Iwis I haue looked syr as your Authour whome you followe willeth vpon the place of your S. Tho. wee are sent vnto In seeking I finde neuer a word of this matter of Magistrats and obedience there as which deuided into three Articles treateth of the vsing of Gods name in adiuring which belongeth to the thirde commaundement but you following your Authour in citing and quoting places who for his greate haste in wryting had not tyme to suruiew or reede any parte of his treatise ouer againe and is therefore according to his request to bee borne withall it may bee you were deceiued also with him But let that goe as a small matter Tell vs your selues to what place of D. Thom. you sende vs rather than to that you name In the meane while as you and your Authour say and set vs downe one and the selfe same thing So your D. Thom. by your leaue where in his summe he treateth of that argumēt disagreeth from you both which that the reader may some what perceiue thogh I lyke not to be so occupied I wil shortly set down both your words some parte of his also Thus your Authour whome you follow The Catholyke churche hath alwayes taught her children that how hardly soeuer their Prince should deale with them yet are they bounde to beare it patiently obay him for conscience sake as substitute of God placed in that roome for their punishement if he rule not wel which apertaineth not to the sub iect to iudge of Good wordes howe cōmeth it to passe that you Catholikes vse not your selues thus towards her Maiestie then how commeth it to passe that your fellowes in their bookes printed abroade teache otherwise stirre vp sedition here then Ye shewe your selues to bee another Baalams or Cayphas children whose mouths must serue the holy Ghost at this time to vtter y e trueth though the instrument meanes be very vnfit the whole serue your side to litle purpose who elsewhere teache practise the contrary Be not angrie at the comparison your owne side 〈◊〉 Popish Prelates to Baalam Cayphas But your D. Thom. to whom you send vs disputing whether mans law put necessitte on vs in the Court of conscience and hauing obiected to the contrarie as his manner is out of the tenth of Esay Wo be to them that make vniust lawes c. Hee answereth and saith that that place speaketh of a lawe that laieth an vniust burden vpon subiects whereunto the order of power graunted of God streacheth not it self Wherfore in such cases man is not bounde to obay the lawe if hee bee able to resist without Scandale that I may keepe his word and your treatises or greater detriment And againe wee must say that a man is bound so farre to obay secular princes as the order of Iustice requyreth And therefore if they haue not iust but vsurped principalitie or if they commande vniust things their subiects are not bounde to obay them except peraduenture by some accident for the auoyding of scandale or danger and can yee make that obedience for conscience sake Againe in another place agreeing with the Decrees and alledging the authoritie of Pope Gregory the seuenth hee wryteth as perillously for her Maiestie and this state and all one with that which y e wicked
make mention of and suche as your Authour or you seeme to promise shall followe and to shewe that the proceedings of your Catholike part bee not so quiet modest as is in wordes to her Maiestie heere pretended neither they such important a stay in euery of her Maiesties Countries as is heere iollily bragged Though vppon occasion I haue beene rounde in this matter and it may seeme sharpe that I here vtter yet let the matter bee well wayed and I shall not bee founde I trust to haue exceeded the bounds of truth and charitie I protest that I meane not to excite or stirre vp my Soueraigne to any crueltie or the State or any of authoritie heere though on the other side I bee so farre of from disliking of iustice and execution of wholesome lawes that though the same turne to the hurt and mischiefe of some yet I like that better then that an inconuenience should grow to the publike state Let mē looke to themselues but that it is not requisite or needefull nor my part to deale in prescribing nor yet in aduising the wisedome of those that rule this State I am so farre of from hastening any particular mans vndoing that I wold wishe which I am assured is without mee thought of and sought that all meanes might bee vsed to the recalling of men home conferrence and other before execution especially of death And is it not so I doe but preuent the aduersaries cauill and shewe my purpose and meaning I neede not nor list not to wade any further heerein The particular rebellions in the North Irelande and such other sturs from time to time by your Catholike part as to well knowne to all men I here omit Further to diduct and come now to answere that which is obiected in this behalfe to vs by the aduersarie whiche generally consisteth as the former in doctrine and demeanour For our doctrine of Magistrats obedience as we professe no other then that which is set vs foorth and plainly layed vs down in the holy scriptures So I marueile agayne that M. Howlet beyng an Englishe man leaueth out those publique testimonies and wrytinges of our 〈◊〉 in this matter whiche to the viewe of the worlde are published by this Church both in Latine and Englishe to expresse their iudgement herein and chargeth our doctrine with particular mens bookes and teachings of late yeres to bring hatred and displeasure or spitefully to wrecke and reuenge himself vpon some one man if he can doe no more where of though some be aliue yet others are dead so can not answere for thēselues but their books must be their clering to all y t world If the godly doctrine we professe here had bin by you read with a single heart before rash iudgemēt wel weighed as in y e bookes aforesaid is declared you would haue forborne I take it these words y t our final end is as our doctrine declareth To haue no gouernour or ruler at all Whence you tooke this doctrine you y t are so ful of quotatiōs here quote vs nothing And we tell you plainly y t things deuised by your brame or picked out of your fingers ends be none of our doctrine wee say it is a great and vntrue slander ye charge this Church with Her Maiestie though diuers times disturbed in her State by you false Catholiks hath raigned in a Gospelling time nowe aboue twenty yeres as chiefe gouernor by y t doctrine of y t Gospel ruler ouer y t professors thereof in much honor great quiet highly to Gods glory her Maiesties singular cōmendation y t exceeding comfort of all true harted englishe mē her Maiesties natural most bonden subiects and many moe yeres may shee raigne we dayly do beseech y t almighty to y t promoting of Christs holy Gospel y t benefit of his Church her own comfort honor Though it be to y t regret renting of all popish Catholike hearts in Christendome To charge our doctrine about Magistates w tall you set vs down three or foure sentēces takē out of three worthie men Christes faithfull souldiers and seruantes in their time The first is M. John Wickliffe one of our progenitours say you one of the singular instrumentes that it pleased God in his time to vse for the aduauncement of his Gospel say we and so rare a one that hee might iustly bee counted among the rest a bright starre shining and giuing light to a great many to their inestimable comfort he opened long since such a wicket as greatly profited the postetitie in Gods matters The seconde whom you alleadge is Doctor Martin Luther whose rare and excellent giftes euery way mightily both astonished the highest of your side in state Ecclesiastical and 〈◊〉 and no lesse furthered and profited Gods cause and encouraged all the godly by his godly and learned writings and otherwise The thirde is that odde and incomparable man of our time The reuerende Father and most painefull and faithfull Pastor and Teacher in Christes Church M John Caluin Whom thogh your heart swelt you can not discredite among Gods seruantes nor iustly staine his trauailes and writings left among vs for the benefite of Gods Church so hath it pleased his maiestie to blesse this good mans labours The Diuell I confesse as in other hath beene very busie in his instruments to deface and disgrace this excellent man diuers wayes but euer their mischiefes returned vpon their owne pates and they euen as many as haue risen and bent thēselues against him haue had the foyle to their shame Although wee highly prayse God for these men and for his great gifts in them as in others giuing them likewise their due cōmēdation as reasō is yet would I y t you M. Howlet and your fellowes shoulde knowe we make none of them nor them all our Pope to depende of them and their authoritie ne yet the Authours of our religion as you do the man of sinne at Rome But we reserue this priuiledge to Jesus Christ alone w tout being addicted to any mans doctrine or writings for faith and religion further then he shal teach vs by canonicall scriptures All these men are dead gone ye might haue let them rest in peace w tout slanderously charging them if it had so pleased you M. Howlet But it shall not be amisse to enter into particular examination of that ye say first therefore let vs see what it is yee charge M. Wickliffe withall and howe you doe it Iohn Wickliffe say you one of their progenitors teacheth that a Prince if he rule euill or fal into mortal sinne is no longer prince but that his subiects may rise against him and punish him at their pleasures If Wyckliffe should haue holden any errour the times wherein he liued considered it were not greatly to be marueyled at God rather is highly to be praysed that in so corrupt and blinde times he sawe and helde the truth in
his iudgement in that matter ye should haue repaired and sent vs to y e place where at large of purpose he ētreateth thereof which he doth in the twentie or last chapter of the fourth booke of his Institution expressely handlyng there the heauenly authoritie of Magistrates and the duetie of good and obedient subiectes whiche Chapter is written wholly of Politique gouermnent Wherein M. Howlet prooue him if you can to haue written vngodly seditiously or vntruely No as hee writeth very godly and with great authoritie of scriptures and reason so doth he very reuerently and modestly also if any other writer old or new as they say doe so after another manner and sort then eyther you here doe to her Maiestie for all your flattering floures or then your sort haue of late or now doe of Princes and 〈◊〉 els where I woulde wishe the godly and christian reader to bee well acquainted with this M. Caluins writings and I doubt not to affirme to bee true here that was else where saide Let him thinke he hath greatly 〈◊〉 in matters of religion who is brought into a loue and liking of Caluins writings And yet I make neither him my God nor his writings my Byble for all this reuerent thinking and speaking of him and his writings Euen in this matter of Magistrates I praye thee gentle reader looke but into that last Chapter and thou shalt see it shal be hard for thee to read else where 〈◊〉 or profoūder iudgement of a diuine for the excellent dignitie of ciuill Princes and Magistrates or for subiectes and priuate mens obedience to thy satisfaction and contentmēt and to be able with all to confute whateuer M. Howlet or his side can cauill against this seruaunt of GOD or Christes religion here 〈◊〉 I will not nowe stande in diducting this matter but note thus much by the way and nowe come M. Howlet to answere your glenings and pyckings out of his writings In the 10. Chapter of the 4. booke of his Institution he treateth of the authoritie of the Churche in making lawes and of the Popes and popishe Prelates tyrannie ouer mens consciences in that behalfe and namely handling this question whether it be lawfull for the Church by her lawes to binde mens consciences he freely inueigheth against your popish Churches licentiousnes in that behalf without any whit preiudicing politique order onely reseruing mens soules and consciences free to bee spiritually guided by God Christ and his holy woorde in the matters appertayning to the soules health and saluation Nowe M. Howlet if this doctrine mislike you that mens soules and consciences should be aboue the cōpasse of mens authoritie and lawes then condemne our 〈◊〉 Christ the Prophetes and Apostles with M. Caluin who make one spirituall Judge King Lorde and Lawgiuer ouer mens soules that is able to saue and destroy willing vs so to giue to Ceasar those thinges that are Caesars that we giue to God the thinges that are Gods to feare him that hath authoritie to cast into hell and to destroy both soule and body there Whereas men what power soeuer they haue ouer the body afterwarde can doe nothing more nor are not able to kill the soule Againe Yee are bought with a price be not the seruantes of men Stande in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made vs free and be not intangled agayne with the yoke of bondage In the kingdome of God there is neyther Iewe nor Grecian circumcision nor vncircumcision bonde nor free male nor female but ye are all one in Christ he is all in all thinges And yet in place may this distinction bee made and must also be as I noted before Your faulte herein is that yee distinguishe not aright betweene the ciuill and outwarde Courte and the Spirituall Courte of conscience as they speake and Maister Caluin here noteth and else where also howe euer your Fafather and Church haue taken vpon them to deale with mens consctences which is Gods seat to sit and rule there wherein they shewe what they bee yet neither our 〈◊〉 nor other ciuill Princes vsurpe so much ouer Gods right that is proper to Antechrist and your faction Concerning the first Article your corruption and false collection therein are so shamelesse that they may be easily espied I wishe the reader to haue but recourse to the place ye quote to finde out your trecherie or false allegatiō in peruerting the authours woordes and sense to be able to answere the same Excellently well doth M. Caluin in that place defining and treating of conscience reconcile these two pointes togethcr First that mens consciences for their spirituall gouernment are aboue mens reaches reserued only to God which also in time of ignorance as y e said M. Caluin sayth was seene and obserued by your Popish writers though practise were to the contrary as may name ly be seene in your Saint Thomas Next that we must bee subiect to our ciuill Magistrates and that for conscience sake according to the doctrine of the Apostle not so much respecting the thinges commaunded or forbidden by them which of them selues touche not conscience as the generall ende and commandement of the eternall God that hath appointed this order and willed vs by his commandement to be subiect to autoritie And this is it the Apostle tendeth to in his epistle to the Romanes so as leauing your caueling in wordes and syllables if you coulde and woulde distinguishe betwene the ciuill Courte and the court of conscience and betweene generall and particular as M. Caluin speaketh All scrupule auoyded this matter might bee eased and better matter gathered from this godly wryter then you too 〈◊〉 pretende to bee there The booke being both in Englishe and in Latine let the reder iudge of the whole you M. Howlet and your fellowes shall neuer be able to stayne M. Caluin and his doctrine nor cleare your selues from malice c. while you liue if you deale plainely Set vs downe the booke Chapter Section and Caluins wordes for we haue no cause other wise to trust you as you doe your fellowes The second place or article that yee take out of Caluin is so plaine true as I maruell what yee meant to charge him therewith for speaking of Christian libertie hee saith That the consciences of the faithfull are exempted from the power of all men by reason of the libertie giuen thē by Christ so as they are not to be intangled in the snares of constitutions in those things wherein the Lord would haue them free But adde I pray you as hee doth there That as the matter is very worthie and meete to bee knowne so needeth it a large and plaine declaration by reason of the adoe that partly seditious persons partly quarell pickers make as though all obedience of men which is not meant were thereby also taken away and ouerthrowne To preuent this inconuenience doth maister Caluin there a
Oracle according to Christs answere so you beeleeue geuen Fryer Thomas by the mouth of the Image of the crucifixe Thou hast written well of me Thomas Furdermore if one woulde enter into more particular examination of that you say it were not harde to improoue this your subtile exposition and by as good ground to ascribe to the father authority to the sonn natiuitie or with the scripture power grace which you appropriate to the father and the holy Ghost And to the holy Ghost communitie of the father the son vnitie societie charitie or else power which you ascribe here to the father as it may be to both the father and the holy Ghost c. This were not hard for him to do y t were disposed to dally w t the Scriptures and truth of God as you do drawing y t same into diuers vncertain expositiōs too irreligeously Gregory hath not one word of sin against the holy Ghost in place ye quote I graunt you he speaketh of insirmitie ignorance and purpose but euery sinne done aduisedly or of purpose is not sinne against the holy Ghost I pray you sir if these your catholikes did commit a sinne and that a greeuous sinne in haunting Protestants churches which I trust they doe with better and more religious minds than you iudge or hereafter at least will Iudge nothing beefore the time vntill the Lorde come c. and so sinne not at all But serue God faythfully But I say put the case there be some such naughtie men then God amende them But why I pray you may they not be iudged to do y t they do of humane frailtie as did Peter seeing you say they doe it for feare fauour or some worldly cause This is but hard freedome harde election and hardly to be called meere will and malice if al these termes be admitted to define sinne against the holy Ghost Augustines modestie noted by Thomas would haue beseemed you This is a deepe question let the light of exposition thereof be sought for of the Lorde I tel you beloued there is not possible a greater nor a harder questiō in al the holy Scriptures Thus far Augustine Whose description both Petrus Lombardus and Thomas auowe and like better then I doe youres There seeme ywis moe thinges required in the description of it than you heere expresse In your heat you shake vp these your catholikes God make them wise and you shall gaine little eyther by them or by that kinde of handling It is better going to the Popes hell or by his pretended sending thither than by his that is able to destroy both body and soule in hell fire Wherefore let vs feare him that is the eternall God which alone hath power to saue and to destroy I speake not all this while to defend any man in doing against conscience any thing or if these men haue so shaken off al reniorce of conscience that they are lulled a sleepe in securitie I with them to awake to learne a better religion which is ioyned with conscience I answere the aduersaries vniust charge and threat and hope the best of such as communicate with Christes church and religion here professed or shewe them whereto they haue at least to trust I woulde haue none flatter themselues in euill which these men cariyng such a conscience as he here speaketh of or suche a minde and not altering the same doe and are in a dangerous case for nourishing such a serpent in their bosome as is poperie and yet dissemble with all the worlde in pretending to be of another religion The mans talke here hauing been possible abrode a shriuing of many or taken it frō them that haue so done and so knowing their consciences better then we that liue among them and are dayly conuersant with them for that we sift not their consciences may make one doubte there bee manye hollowe harted Catholikes among vs or worldlinges rather and Atheistes for in deed such are vtterly without God haue no cōscience at al. I wishe them therefore to looke about thē men may be damned many a one is damned for other sins thē the sin against the holy Ghost how euer they sinne that greeuously I dare not say they sinne against the holy Ghost for al this or may not ' be good mē in time to cōe Thus make I mine argumēt against y e aduersarie Nothing supposed to be done of feare fauour or other passiō can be iustly called sin against the holy Ghost The Catholikes cōmunicating w t our churches is a thing supposed to be done of feare fauour or other passion euen by this man and other of that syde Therefore the Catholikes communicating with our Churches can not bee iustly called sinne against the holy Ghost Thus far of those that you accompt the worst and to to badde Catholikes I pray God we may find them good Christians And yet if they haue learned any euill they haue learned it of your religion and in your schoole I haue beene herein the longer bicause the whole booke seemeth to be written against this kinde of men God open their eyes they may see knowe and discerne their friendes from their foes bee carefull and watchfull amending at least in time to come that which is amisse The third sort of catholikes or the seconde as you tearm them quite leauing out such as your selfe are agree but in one of the three points I spake of before dissent in two they iudge all religions beside theyr owne say you false erronious damnable this haue they cōmon with other Romane catholikes but they thinke it lawfull for some worldly respect as for sauing their offices dignities liberties credits or the like to shewe themselues conformable men in going to church and other church proceedinges here c. thinking also other too scrupulous that stand in refusal of y e same This make you y e proper difference of these from other catholikes Nowe as they agree with the rest in the first point so in going to church taking othe communicating c. they disagree from hot Catholikes and agree therein with those I haue at large discoursed of euen now te The more I perceiue they acquaint them selues with the Gospell of Christ here professed and receiued the more dutifull they shewe them selues to her Matestie the worse bee they liked of you but the matter is not great Albeit these agree no better with you hot Catholikes but dissent in mo pointes then the other that went afore yet ye thought it pollicie belike hauing so scourged and taken vp those somewhat here to spare these men least you should do your religion too much hurt if you should fal too farre out with all besides your selues In places elsewhere you take them vp very sharply thogh but here thinking good to forbe are least you should want another mayne branche of your tree yee haue thought good to make
iudge and as many as thereafter and according thereunto list to iudge and as much say I of Schismatikes in Augustines wordes thus if you will whether we be Schismatiks or you neither I nor thou but let Christ be asked that hee may iudge or shewe his Church In the application of this to vs and our assemblies and to your men that haunt the same yee say The communion of the Church confisteth in three thinges that all christians haue one sacrifice one and the selfe same seruice of God There bee greater in warde spirituall thinges wherein the vnitie of the Church doth 〈◊〉 consist In the vnitie of the spirit one heart one minde loue peace consent in one Christian doctrine fayth c. But let vs see these that yee thought made for your purpose What is the sacrifice yee meane If it be that which Christ offered vpon the Crosse to his Father for the redemption of the worlde wee say it is common to all Christians all are partakers of it and we are directed thereunto contially both by doctrine and also by the vse of the Supper among vs. If you meane the Sacrifice of your blasphemous masse thē thank we God y t we are free frō it as frō a most abhominable blasphemie The giuing vp of our bodies A liuing Sacrifice holy acceptable vnto God c. The sacrifice of distributing and doing good the sacrifice of Praise and thankesgiuing c. These grounded on Gods word in vse among vs are belike no sacrifices we haue no sacrifice at al say you none w t you but your massing sacrifice as seemeth we are al made priests though to offer vp these spirituall sacrifices wherewith God is pleased You haue of your selues without all warrant of Gods worde erected a massing priesthood Keep it we bid you to your selues Of Sacraments we haue in deede but two Baptisme and the Lords Supper As those which Christ instituted and lefte in his Church we acknowledge not your number of seuen sacraments for that the word warranteth them not Those that Christ hath lefte the lesse they haue of your superstitions and ceremonies the more neerely they be administred according to Christes Institution the better is God pleased therewith the better are wee contented also Thus speaketh the holy Ghost of the benefite and of the vnitie represented and bestowed on the Church in our sacraments of Baptisme and the Lordes Supper In one Spirit are wee all baptised into one body and haue beene all made to drinke into one spirit And agayne we that are many are one breade and one bodie because we all are partakers of one breade therhood c. Let the reader cōpare your translation with Cyprians or M. Hardings translation if yee will to see your slight then considering all circumstances Let him iudge whether Cyprians time beare anie such orders and degrees as ye imagine to be aboue a Byshop in those times Thus writeth and speaketh Cyprian in the assembly of many byshops in those daies at Carthage in coūsel which is also repeated by Augustine None of vs appointeth him self to be a bishop of bishops or driueth his fellowes w t tyrannous feare to necessitie of obedience seeing euery Byshop according to his free libertie and power is at his own choyse as one that can not bee iudged of another as hee him selfe also can not iudge another But let vs all looke for the iudgement of our Lord Jesus Christ who one alone hath power both to place vs in the gouernement of his Church and to iudge also of our doyng Here is more plaine wordes for the equalitie of Byshoppes in those dayes and against that one Byshop shoulde bee iudge ouer all other Byshops then can be pickt out of the other place for an vniuersall or generall Pastour ouer all or thorough the worlde yea here is plainly shewed there was no one Bishop of Bishops or iudge ouer his fellowe Byshops in those dayes And that the Byshop of Rome was fellowe Byshop and Brother with therest and so reputed and called And let none cauill on that y t this Epistle was written to the Byshoppe of Rome and therfore these words by a prerogatiue are to be vnderstood of him when as Cyprian vseth the same testimonies to shewe the dignitie and authoritie of a Byshop in his owne respect and speaking of himselfe and sayth whence sprang and spring Schismes and 〈◊〉 but hence whilest the Byshop that is one and gouerneth the church is contemned by the proude presumption of certaine men and a man vouchsafed with honour of God is iudged of vnworthie men This Cyprian of himfelfe being Byshop of Carthage whome though Christians seemed then to name their Pope as is reported yet I thinke these men doe not nor will not accompt him general Pastour of all the world nor to haue such preeminence and prerogatiue as they chalenge to the Pope at this day heade of the Church c. For al this Rome must needes haue that alone he nor none els shall haue it It is not the worde of one Byshop wherewith Cyprian here calleth himself much lesse of one Priest as this Reasoners place reporteth that will enforce that he woulde gather or such iurisdiction and authoritie as he imagineth where findeth hee one generall Pastour ouer al the worlde not here sure Is not your general Pastours soueraintie y t you dreame of grounded on Peters supremacie whereof there is not one worde in all the scriptures and doth not this noble Martyre Saint Cyprian aboue thirteene hundred yeeres agoe say thus of the Apostles The rest were that that Peter was endewed with all honour and power and after him another Father speaking of the Byshops sayeth where euer they bee they are of one and the same merite or estimation and of the same Priesthod and Ministerie The whole brotherhood was that particular congregation where hee was Byshop of whom hee treateth were it the Bishop of Rome or any other Bishop For there is one Bishopricke a part whreof is throughly holden of euery one in particular saith Cyprian but let Cyprian and his place goe which is at large answered by other for them that list to see more Let this man if he will gaine his cause against vs reason soundely out of the scripturs and booke of God which he can not doe and that maketh him to seeke these outleapes But when all is sayde the best and surest holde for this generall Byshop ouer all is that wicked Emperour Phocas and his authoritie and gift to Boniface a pope of Rome many C. yeres after Cyprians time Considering the course that this Reasoner holdeth howe easie it is to answere all that he bringeth foorth and that the same is alreadie answered elsewhere by diuers in their bookes and lately by a godly and learned brother for troubling the reader ouer long and not to repeat one the same things
popish Latine seruice infallible good It is cōtrary to ours ours to y t an argumēt taken of the contrary will serue it seemeth your turne that is your seruice is therefore infallible good because it hath no Scriptures or is contrary to the scriptures as it is in deed shewed plainely and plainly if not to you yet to all those that haue any eyes to see eares to heare or heartes to consider thereof The whole Scripture sir is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teache to improoue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may bee absolute and made perfect to all good workes Good is the Scripture nothing but good euery way and most perfectly good As bad as your seruice is yet for shame coulde your men not call it God his or diuine seruice without taking some patches of the Scriptures to commend the same withall If ours haue more scripture and in better order as in deede not dalying therewith at least let it not be blamed therefore finde some other faulte in it Let not the Scripture make our seruice like to wicked seruice for that respect and vs in it to be like Iewes Heretikes and the Diuell and his talke with Christ so ye speake vnlesse yee can make it for some like respect and in such sense as Christes comming to iudgement is to a theeues soden comming and at vnawares And then shall it not be preiudiciall to vs nor to our god his seruice nor auaile or help your cause But I am not carefull to expound your meaning that meane as seemeth very vnhappily I pray you set vs not to make Apologies or prayses of the Scriptures nowe You cite Augustine that it was alwayes the fashion of heretikes to haue scripture in their mouth and to cleaue only to scriptures and to refuse traditions as inuentions of men though we bee not bounde to Augustine yet wee aske you where Augustine hath it Yee say against Maximinus wee tell you as wee are inforced still to do that you say vntruly Augustine findeth no fault with y e Arrian Heretike there for citing or vsing y e testimonies of the scriptures but for abusing the same For hee himselfe entreth that combate with the Arrian Bishop and by scriptures confuteth Arrianisme Augustine graunteth that the Arrian Bishop vseth the true testimonies of God his Scripture which is more then we can graunt you Papistes now adayes which for your sluttish handeling false allegation of Scriptures shewe your selues worse then y e old Heretike who corrupted not nor peruerted the holy Scriptures but the faulte that Augustine chargeth him with is that he woulde prooue thereby saith he their false doctrine of Arrius concerning Christe his diuinitie which is not possible to doe God his true scriptures can not prooue any false doctrine The Art of Logicke woulde teache you so much as I tolde you before This is the abuse then that Augustine reprooueth and wee with him yea with God Christe and all the Godly that where Arrius doctrine was directly contrary to the scripture with sophistrie glosing and other shiftes hee woulde goe about to maintaine the same and hale in the scriptures by the haire as they say to seeme to prooue that which they condemne whome and his wrangling Augustine by scripture and by no other meanes confuteth Wee are no Arrians we are not nor will not bee Heretikes shewe that wee doe abuse the scriptures as to ouerthrowe Christs diuinitie thereby or to establishe diuelish doctrines deuised by our selues or taken from other men as you doe or els forbeare to liken vs and our God his seruice to wicked Iewes heretikes and Diuels What you are and your behauiour let your doinges tell whereof as occasion serueth euer and 〈◊〉 I giue the Reader a taste here in this reason is among the rest some sparkes of your modestie commended by your fellowe M. Howlet to the s kie in his Preface to her maiestie to discerne a Sectarie by his spirite and proceeding Because you cite Augustine heere against Maximinus an arrian Bishop and heretike and the first booke I wish y e learned Reader to looke on y e place to see your cunning or sleight rather Augustine pressing the heretike to declare his faith of the father the sonne and the holy ghost the Heretike ranne as to a starting hole to a councell of many Bishops saying hee beleeued as they beleeued this is your maner aright you knowe your diuinitie tale I am sure of the Collier and the great Clarke his scholler commended and set vs downe by your side as some heauenly Oracle Howe beleeuest thou Answere as the Church beleeueth and howe beleeueth the Church answere as I beleeue further woulde hee not goe but still repeate that and this was no table for that great doctour and Clarke to marke and carry away for his vse and to teache other But Austen heere checketh the heretike for that answere and biddeth him expresse his owne faith Howe hee beleeueth and not runne to the councell of Ariminum and name that The words are these Augustine saith to the heretike Tell me thy fayth of the father and the sonne and the holy Ghost Maximin the heretike answereth If you aske my fayth I holde that faith which at Arminium was not onely expounded but also by subscriptiō confirmed of three hundred thirtie Byshops Here was a counsel of a great many moe byshops then were at your Trent meeting Augustine sayth I sayd euen nowe and I repeate the same because thou wouldest not answere me Tell me thy fayth of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost c. And by and by after therfore I sayde thou wouldest not answer because whilest I required that thou shouldest tell me thy fayth of the father and the sonne and the holy Ghost which I yet now aske thou hast not tolde me thy fayth but hast named the Councell of Ariminum I would know thy fayth what thou beleeuest what thou thinkest of the father the sonne and the holy Ghost If thou wilt vouchsafe let me heare it of thine owne mouth Sende me not to those writings which eyther are not nowe heere present and ready or I am not bounde to their authoritie c. No Augustine what not to a Councell and that of so many Byshops No in deede neither to Councell nor multitude but to the scriptures onely And therefore against the same Maximin he sayth afterwardes neither ought I preiudicially to bring forth now the Councell of Nice whiche made for Augustine and was the first most famous generall Councell after the Apostles time Neyther oughtest thou to bring foorth the Councell of Ariminum whiche wee hearde euen now the heretike alleadged for him I am 〈◊〉 bounde to this councels authoritie sayth Austen nor thou to the authoritie of that Nicene Councell No Augustine Againe I say not bound to the Nicene
c. For Idols Idolaters you haue this word in y e very last booke and last chapter of the new Testament ver 15. Reuelatiō 2. Idols twise verse 14. 20. Let this serue to note your vntrue slander To woorship or religiously serue besides God we make the same an Idoll The outwarde representation also thereof or Image is in scriptures called an Idol Hee nameth an expresse place here where we shall find Images for Idols in the very last wordes of the fifth chapter of Saint Iohn his fyrst Epistle First that is but one place and one example which is a very bad proofe to shewe that wee translate Images for Idols throughout the scripture next thus it is read in our Church assemblies at this present what euer this lying quareller dreame euen in the Byble translated vnder her maiesties gouernement and printed with priuilege by her highnes Printer Richarde Iugge 1568. and. 1572. and set into Churches and there dayly read and expounded Babes keepe your selues from Idols Then are you not 〈◊〉 onely but a shamelesse lyer and a slanderer and abuser of the people So is it likewise translated in the english Bible printed at Geneua 1560. in the beginning of her maiesties happy raigne and dedicated vnto her highnes So is it translated in that worthie Theodore Beza his newe Testament dedicated also to our Soueraigne c. But how is it translated in your authenticall translation I pray you that must alone bee approoued and receiued without checke and all other in comparison therof reiected There is that faulte ye charge vs with if that be a faulte as in 〈◊〉 I iudge it to be none or not so greate Idole beeing the Greeke and Image the Latin and English word Then if any English Bybles haue left the word Idols and vsed the word Images in this place of S. Iohn yet is no more done thē you permit your selues and therfore yee need not call it manifest and wilfull corruption c. Except it be to discredite that you account your owne translation If that bee your griefe to see or heare the word Images in I. Iohn the. 5. 21. forbidden though it be not greatly materiall the circumstance considered yet to satisfie and please you if that will serue that word Image is remooued and the Greeke worde Idole kept in diuers of our english translations why mend you not your own common latin translation not here onely wherewith we charge you not but in infinite other places wherein the same is verye corrupt Where you would cleere your church of Idols and Idolatrie by his childish distinction betweene Idols and Images It is so wel answered as I neede adde nothing to that the Godly learned haue here of sayd Ye know it is Hierome his manner on the Prophets to applie to the times and persons vnder Christ that which is spoken of Idols and Idolatrie vnder the Prophets to shewe their are among Christians Idols Idolatours that wee neede not cast the same from vs to the Heathen as though Christendome were free frō Idols and Idolatours Which I would it were if it pleased God but wil neuer be so long as you maintain Images in churches the worship therof which is cleere plaine Idolatry In yours all other religions mans vaine fancie braine idle head is the source fountaine and first-shop to conceiue and 〈◊〉 Idols and Idolatry in afterward the hand is made an instrumēt to fashiō frame an outward forme or picture of that Lye which is there first conceiued c. Call the same a God an Idole an Image a Picture or what you will In grossenes in cunning there may be some diuersitie in effect al is flat Idolatry whatsoeuer we choose Let al y t world iudge who be shamlesse corruptors and wylfull to drawe yea to peruert the scripture to their owne purpose in this point that I talke of to goe 〈◊〉 further now They that heere translate Images as your vulgare translation 〈◊〉 and some other doe But not as I haue shewed the english Byble printed in her maiesties raigne and read at this day in our Churches as yee vniustly slander Or you Papists that for the retaining and maintaining of your Idolatry or Images and Image worship among the people haue quite rased out the second commandement of the ten agaynst Images and Idolatry or if you will haue it gentlier spoken haue left it out of those latin and english primers and bookes wherein the ten commandementes were expressed to be learned of the common people here in times past I know your shift for such forgerie but 〈◊〉 me thinketh haue let the wordes stand and follow in order as God pronounced and propounded the same to his people in the scriptures ten wordes are not many you might haue kept your shift for a better purpose if it so had pleased you For the matter as the scripture telleth vs that such stuffe teacheth lyes is contrary to the doctrine of the same scripture So Lactantius sayth vndoubtedly there is no religion where an Image is Images are voyde of religion c. And the Heathen and heretike charged the Christians in the primitiue Church with this that they had no Images as though Christians had beene too blame for being without Images who if they had had Images coulde not haue beene so charged or might haue answered at the least otherwise than they doe And as one of your owne men writeth out of Hierom almost all the ancient fathers condemned the woorshipping of Images for feare of Idolatry than the which no wickednes can be greater c. Famous is the story of Epiphanius translated into Latin by Hierom who cut in peeces the paynted vaile wherein the image of Christ or some saint was hanging at the dore of the Temple for that it was against the authoritie of the scriptures that a mans image should hang in the Church and against our religion sayth hee And more famous yet is the publike edict of sundry the olde christian Emperours in forbidding Images and the worship thereof not thinking it to pertaine to religion that the Image of any should be worshipped no not of Christ whose Image by name they forbad as in their decree is to be seene c. You see the hanging of Christes Image in the Church or any Saintes the worshipping also of such Images is condēned and forbidden Now would I know of you in what commandement the same is forbidden vnlesse it be in that which forbiddeth Idolatry Idols Plead against those of your side against these anciēt fathers y e emperours c. If ye needs wil Say what ye wil ye shal neuer be able to cleere your Images set vp in Temples from being Idols nor your woorshipping thereof from idolatry which you must doe better than hitherto before you can make vs beleeue the contrary or otherwise of them then the scriptures and antiquitie teach and report
euill day I counsayle you And yet I meane not so much in this world as in that to come God giue vs all his grace Amen Imprinted at London at the three Cranes in the Vintree by Thomas Dawson for Toby Smyth dwelling in Paules Churchyarde at the signe of the Crane 1581. An appendix or addition for aunsweare to the Authors recapitulation in the ende of his Treatise BEfore you conclude vp this first parte of your discourse you gather for 〈◊〉 sake to the vnlearned foure conclusions takē out of y t you haue to fore said which being falsly supposed rather then duely proued might easily haue been heere omitted But it is to the vnlearned You may not bee gaine standed You wil haue no nay You wil not nowe dispute of the matter you say all must be supposed indeede the vnlearned vnstable are easeliest seduced and brought to wrest euen the Scriptures to their owne destruction as blessed Peter reporteth The godlier learned wise wil cal you know for sounde proofe of the matter you thinke to carrie all afore you vpon your owne credite it is no reason it may not be Going to Hereticall assemblies we graunt you is prohibited Christians by the lawe of nature of God and of his true Church not to be dispensed with by any mortall man but where when and how proue you that our Church assēblies be hereticall this would haue beene proued which you put off before you had beene so rash to haue without warrāt or ground pronounced it vnlawfull to haunt our Churche assemblies What it aduauntageth your side to suppose that which you cannot proue and lieth in controuersie betweene vs I wote not but easily may one perceiue that it sauoureth neyther of trueth nor of learning which you so confidently affirme Till you can conuince vs therefore of heresie our assemblies to be hereticall which while we may be hearde to make answere will neuer bee giue vs leaue to turne on your owne heades that which you charge vs with And forasmuch as our men haue prooued Papistes Heretikes and their Idolatrous assemblies heretical giue the Pastors and other godlie Learned leaue to admonish all the faithfull to abstayne therefrom as frō prohibited vnlawfull things where you especially haue nothing to doe or not to commād at least And seeing the case thus standeth nowe betweene these two religious that of the Protestantes and Papists In the meane while till you can more sufficiently then hitherto reproue our Church assemblies let vs craue at your hands to shewe that the whole act of going to Churche is as it is of you Papistes sayde to bee prohibited also Iure diuino naturali that is by the Lawe of GOD and nature For wee holde the contrary not by Supposition as you doe but by good warrant of God his woorde reason and experience to witte that to haunt Churche assemblies is a thing 〈◊〉 on GOD his Lawe Whether we respect the olde Testament or the newe and also on the Lawe of nature as not experience onelye taken from the Heathen and the example of them that haue amongest them any exercise of Religion but reason also sufficiently teache and not to haunt Churche meetinges on the other side or vttetly to abstayne therefrom is a contempt and vtter denying of all Religion If therfore you will needes busie your selfe where you haue no cause and little thanke of autoritye for your laboure shewe eyther your selfe more religious and fauourable in speaking for Churche meetinges or prooue more substantially then hitherto the faultes wherewith you charge the same heere amonge vs especially seeing all the worlde maye knowe and iudge that our meetinges in the excercise of Religion daylye are not onelye voyde of Idolatrye wherewith your meetinges are 〈◊〉 but tende also to the 〈◊〉 and comforte of our consciences vnto the good example of other in making publike confession of our sinnes and the Christian fayth in hearing GOD his holie woorde making publike prayers participating of the holye Sacraments c. which we take to be the principall endes and chiefest vses of Christian assemblies in steede of gasing crooching crossing pyping singing and other ceremoniall fashions in vse among you For the rest whether it bee impossible to bee so that your Pope shoulde offer too her Maiestye to confirme the Englishe seruice vppon condition to recouer his Supremacie heere in Englande whiche hee is farre from and GOD so keepe him still and whether his authoritie be aboue the Scriptures so as hee may dispense with thinges agaynst GOD his Lawe or no I leaue to the Authoures that first inuented such brabbles to occupie mens heades with all Onelye this in perusing of late I remember N. Saunders an Archepapiste among you English Romanists handeling this latter question of the Popes authoritie in dispensing against the woorde of God disputeth whether the Pope may not dispence agaynst the Apostle thus mynceth hee thinges and for his aduantage propoundeth this question and hee affirmeth as one put to his shiftes therein that the Pope may doe or suffer to bee doone sometime otherwise then the Apostle commaundeth and ordereth As for example where the Apostle commaundeth if any brother haue a wife that beleeueth not If she be content to dwell with him let him not forsake her The Pope may for some respect dispēce giue the man leaue to put a way such a wife cōtent desirous to dwell with her husband and further he may giue him leaue to marry an other contrary to the Apostles doctrine and cōmaundement With which he hath authoritie to dispense though the former wife haue committed no fault against her husband after their mariage And why not I pray you when hee hath done still doth and can doe greater thinges then this whereof I enter not now to entr eate vpon this occasion particularly nor to examine Saunders cauilles and meere shifts indeede and no better The Learned know this man of sinne well ynough and the excessiue authoritie he vsurpeth and chalengeth The vnlearned I thinke are sufficiently warned before Let all that are Godlie take heede of dealing with Pope or Papistes in mariage or otherwise In the seconde conclusion you bring no newe matter but turne vs ouer to the olde and therefore I also send the Reader to that I haue before particularly answeared In the thirde conclusion it greeueth you her Maiesties Subiectes bee and shoulde bee so obedient to her godlie commaundements and therefore where obedience for going to Churche is alleadged you call it a A vayne pretence As the holie Scriptures for the grounde of our G O D his seruice were a greate blocke lying in your way wherewith you were troubled before and therevppon trauelled to inuay agaynst the sacred Scriptures So now heere her Maiesties authoritie grounded on the Scriptures and ioyning therein with the Mynisters doctrine and exhortation to call her Subiectes to holie assemblies lyeth in your way agayne and combreth you greately