learne from him many new and excellent points This your first reason seemed very iust in your conceit to maintaine your glorious challenge of disputation with some of the learned of our Vniuersities But Campian you had delt a great deale wiser for your self if either you had neuer conceiued thesâ— reasons or streightway vpon the birth smothered them For before by your great challenge you begat a maruelous and wonderfull conceit of your selfe in euery mans mind and now when they shall readâ— those slender reasons of yours they will easily perceiue there is no cause why you should take so much vpon you and they wil tontemptuously deride you as you well deserue hisse you out of their scholes Therefore the counsell which Archidamuâ— gaue to his Sonne headily venturing to right with the Athenians the same doe our Vniuersitie men giue to to you Either adde to thy might or abate of thy mind for no man Campian euer tooke more vpon him and performed lesse than you haue done But let vs see what other things you bring vs. EDMVND CAMPIAN The second Reason which is the right sense of the Scriptures ANother matter that prouoked me to vndertake this enterprize and that enforced mee little to feare these my aduersaries slender armies is the vsuall inclination of my enemie in expounding the Scriptures full of deceite and void of wisdome These things you Philosophers would quickely finde out and therefore I was desirous of your audience Let vs demaund for example sake of our aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is * This is false for we doe not exclude Christ from the Supper excluded out of the mysticall supper If they name the Gospell we ioyne with them the very words they are for vs. a Matth. 26 Mark 14. Luk. 22. This is my bodie this is my blood which words seemed to b Luther in epist. ad Argen Luther so forcible that when he earnestly desired to be of Zuinglius mind because by that meanes he might haue wrought the Pope most displeasure yet notwithstanding he yeelded being ouercome and vanquished by the most plaine text of Scripture and as vnwillingly confessed that Christ is truly present in the most holy Sacrament as the c Matth. â— Marke 1. diuels in time past being ouercome with miracles with outcries confessed that Christ is the sonne of God Goe to then the written word doth fauour vs the controuersie is about the true meaning of the written word Let vs trie out this by the words thereunto adioyning d Luk. 22. Mattb. 22. Corpus meum quod pro vobis datur sanguis meus qui pro multis eâ—lundetur that is My bodie which is giuen for you my blood which shal be shed for many Yet the matter goeth hard on Caluins side and maketh very manifestly and plainely for vs. What say they else Conferre say they the Scriptures together Agreed The c Iohn 6. Matth. 16. Marc. 14. Luc. 22. Gospels make for vs f 1. Cor. 10. 11. S. Paul accordeth also The words the sentences the whole connexion of Scriptures doe often most reuerently repeate the bread and the wine a not able miracle heauenly foode his flesh his bodie his blood Here is nothing figuratiue nothing obscured by doubtfull speeches yet notwithstanding the aduersaries stand stiffely in their opinion and neuer cease wrangling What shall we then doe I hope antiquitie may be heard and that the reuerend hoare head of Fathers of all former ages to Christs time more nigh farther off from the time of these controuersies may be their iudgement determine this debate which we cannot end amongst our selues being suspected one of another * This is false for in this coÌ„trouersie we willingly admit Antiquity as witnesse They cannot away with that they say then they are betraied They crie out for the sincere and pure word of God they vtterlie reiect all mens commentaries trecherouslie and witlesselie done We will vrge them with the word of God they darken it we call the Saints in heauen for witnesses they refuse them In few words this is their drift that vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guiltie there is no iudgement to be had And so they behaue themselues in euerie controuersie betweene vs. As concerning grace powred into vs from heauen inherent iustice the visible Church the necessity of Baptisme Sacraments and sacrifices meritorious works of good folke hope and feare inequality of offences the authoritie of S. Peter the keyes vowes Euangelicall counsailes and other like controuersies we Catholikes in sundrie of our books in our mutuall conference in churches in schooles haue brought forth many and waightie places of Scripture and haue both tried and applied the same They haue scorned at this We haue alledged the interpretations of the auncient Greeke and Latin Churches they haue refused them What say they then marry that M. Doctor Martin Luther or else M. Philip Melanthon or certainelie M. Zuinglius or without doubt M. Caluin and M. Beza haue faithfullie entreated vpon these matters Can I imagine any of you to be so stuffed in the nose that being forewarned cannot quicklie smell out this subtile iugling wherfore I confesse plainlie that I am desirous to haue audience in the Vniuersitie scholes that after I haue called these Ruffian-like knights out of their dark dennes into the open and plaine field I may before your eies discomfite them not by my owne strength which am not to bee compared with the worst of an hundred of our side but by the puissance of the cause and certaintie of the truth which we maintaine WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the second Reason WHat could be said touching the Scriptures wee haue heard wee must proceed to heare what can bee said for the interpretation and exposition of them for our vsuall inclination in expounding the Scriptures saith Campian hath encouraged and incited him earnestly to desire this encounter And we also Campian haue long ago desired to buckle with you herein And at length the Lord hath brought you out of your lurking holes into the broad light that we might trie it out with you but what is our disposition you speake of It is full of deceit say you and void of wisdome Thus you being a man of small reach and lesse discretion do conceite our inclination Assuredly the matter you haue now in hand is a cause of great waight for the force the substance and as it were the soule of the Scripture consisteth in the meaning very well said Hierome The Scriptures are not in the letter but in the vnderstanding Contra Lucifer in 1. cap. ad Gila and in another place a DVR Then Luther and Caluin obtruded a new Gospell vpon the Church when they brought in a new sense of the words such as the whole Christian â—orld knew not yea it had a far other sense of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 138. If this last
be graunted you yet it followeth not that they brought in a new Gospell because they differed from that sense for the sense is not to be sought for among the multitude but we must looke to the Scriptures and to God speaking in them as the men of Berea did not take the sense of the most but searched the Scriptures whether Paul taught things agreeing vnto it The Gospell is not in the words of the Scripture but in the sense They then haue the best end of the staffe and are the best patrons of Religion and truth who find out and keepe the true and natural meaning of the Scripture For the letter or word is plaine all controuersies depend vpon the meaning of the Word The state of the question is then thus whether of vs twaine haue attained the true and naturall meaning of the Scripture whether you Iesuits falsely called Catholikes or we who oppose your opinion and iudgment First therefore in generall and in few words we will see what is your opinion and iudgement then we will answere to your cauils Now it is most cleere that you make both the Scripture it selfe and the interpretation of it to depend vpon the authority of the b DVR Js it some haynous offence to require the iudgement of the Church in interpreting the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 142. We contemne not the iudgement of the Church but highly esteeme it as profitable to the well interpreting of the Scriptures But we contemne the iudgment of your Church which hath not any thing which a true Church should haue DVR Whither then should we goe to finde the sense WHIT. Euen whether Christ biddeth vs go search the Scriptures Iohn 5.39 And this vse they haue saith S. Paul 2. Tim. 3.15.16 Church And the Church you call not the whole multitude of Christians and faithfull men but you restraine both the name and nature of the Church vnto your c DVR You reprooue vs that vvee giue the interpretation of the Scriptures to Bishops they verily ought to deliver the true sense they haue receiued from their predecessors to the people WHIT. pag. 144. S. Paul alloweth all Ministers of the Gospell this power to interpret the Scriptures 1. Cor. 14.29.30 who ought aswell to deliuer the true sense as Bishops Besides you must know that the knowledge of tâ—â— Scriptures and the gifts of the spirit are not hereditarie or to be deliuered from hand to hand Bishops But your Bishops may differ touching the sense of the Scriptures so shall we be vncerteine and shall not resolue which of them to beleeue But you can helpe this generall d DVR Great and many controuersies haue been decided by Councels WHIT. pag. 145. It followeth not hereupon that the interpreting of the Scriptures is to be sought for of theÌ„ or if good Councels by the true interpretation of the Scriptures haue taken away some errors and heresies that thereâ—ore all interpretation is theirs or that we must looke for the same from impâ—ous and vnlearned Councels Councels must decide and determine all questions and controuersies Shall we then rest in them no more then in the other for the e DVR And why not seeing no Councell is of any authoritie which was not confirmed by the Pope WHIT. pag. 146. This is false for the sixt African Councell and the Calcedon Councell haue their authority without him And Emperors Patriaâ—kes and Bishops haue confinued Councels And the Councell of Constantinople by letters desired the confirmation of the decrees from Theodosius the Emperor DVR .. God set ouer the Iewes one High Priest Deut. 17.11 Then would Christ neuer neglect his Spouse but leaue her a chiefe iudge vpon the earth WHIT. pag. 151. Yet that iudge was to determine according to the Law Deut. 17.11 But the Pope maketh interpretations not out of the word written but out of his owne braine Againe it followeth not if ouer one little nation God set one chiefe iudge Christ must set but one ouer the whole world Besides the Iewish iudge was a type of Christ Lastly it followeth not that Chriâ—â— hath left his Church no iudge iâ— he haue not leâ—t it one only for euery Church haâ—h her Pastor to teach her and to dâ—â—ermine questions in her Pope must be iudge ouer the Councels So in the conclusion the whole interpretation of holy Scriptures is transferred to the Pope and must be fetched out of his brest yea and as a proper right he so challengeth the power of interpreting of the Scripture that whatsoeuer he thinketh that must be accounted the sense and meaning of them This is your constant and perpetuall propertie and disposition in interpreting the Scriptures full of dotage error and falshood void of aduise knowledge and wisdome For what an absurd and horrible thing is it that the sense and meaning of the holy Scripture should depend vpon one mans iudgement and voice specially being such a one as commonly the Bishops of Rome haue been vnlearned wicked hereticall And hence haue proceeded all those goodly interpretations Take Eate that is you Priests say priuate Masses Dist. 31. Tenere Drinke yee all of this that is only the Priests must drinke Be yee holy for I am holy f DVR Which oâ— the Popes or what Catholike â—riter euer collected this out of that place WHIT. pag. 159. Pope Syricius did first of all so collect and after him Pope Innocent as you may reade in Graâ—â—an Dist. 31. cap. Tenâ—re Dist. 82. cap. propâ—suisti cap. plurimos therfore it is vnlawful for the Minister of the Word to marry a wife Giue yee not holy things to dogges therefore the people must be forbidden to reade the Scriptures What should I number vp innumerable moe of your interpretations by which you doe nothing but peruert and wrest the Scriptures Is this indeed Campian the right interpreting of Scripture or must all Christians receiue this exposition as the oracle of God But what should I speake of the constant tenour you keepe in the interpretation of Scripture for you make the sense of Scriptures so changeable so diuerse and inconstant like to a nose of waxe and a leaden rule Pighius that at all assaies it may euer serue your turne So writeth g DVR Cusanus hath written very rightly for there are diuers senses of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 162. What rule then can be more vncerteine then the Scriptures or what can be spoken more vilely of the Scripture how then is the Scripture one rule Phil. 3.16 how is iâ— firme induring for euer 1. Pet. 1.25 how no deceitfull ballance Augusâ— dâ— Baptis cont Don. lib. 2. cap. 6. Nicholas Cusanus a Cardinall of Rome Nicol. Cusan Epist. 2. Epist. 7. to the Bohemians This vnderstand that the Scriptures are fitted to the time and diuersely to be vnderstood so that at one time they may be expounded according to the common customable course but change that and the sense is
370. When did I euer grant Campian so much I should certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury if I should adiudge them for Campian who are so farre different from him And for your kindred with them it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children for if you were the children of the Fathers you would hold the faith of the Fathers For the Scribes and Pharisies were not the children of Moses because they sate in Moses chaire Neither are they the children of the Saints who hold the places of the Saints as Hierome Neither haue they the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter as Ambrose neither ought faith to be tried by persons but persons by saith as Tertullian hath written We verily loue and duly reuerence the Fathers yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen and one teacher which is Christ And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers why doe you forsake many of their opinions therefore are these Fathers wholie on your side what is this else but dotage and to speake without witte or feare Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the diuell Ambrose whether any euer said it or no I neuer knew neither is it greatly materiall the best most righteous men may sometimes be so farre bewitched as they doe not in some things perceiue the truth and you doe too openly bewray your malice by labouring to raise an euill opinion of him and to make vs infamous for such speeches as may haue a good construction though at the first they seeme odious Certeinly I haue read many Papists and heard of some all passing shamelesse and malepere but more impudent then your selfe in all my life did I neuer know any There is no end of your lying you feare no mens censure there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speake Euen now you set vpon Beza with a fresh lye He you say hath written that Hierome is as surely damned as the diuell because he was iniurious to the Apostles a blasphemous a wicked and an vngodly man That Beza affirmeth not these things I protest and aâ—ow let any man that will see the place if it be otherwise let me be accounted very infamous For as for those first words that Hierome was damned aswell aâ— the diuell either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of some other place as all the rest are or altogether forged as the most In the place alledged there is no such thing Concerning that he saith of Iniury and Blasphemy I will set downe Beza his owne words that all men may know your impudency Euen Hierome Beza in annot noui Testam in Act. Apost cap. 23. saith Beza if it be true that Erasmus vpon this place saith of him is not only iniurious to the Apostle in that hee findeth want of moderation in this speech wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but also is openly blasphemous in that euen in Christ himselfe he hath found some signe of imperfection Thus far Beza the matter of his complaint is about S. Paules sharpe answere vnto the high Priest in which Hierome as Erasmus testifieth in his Dialogues against Pelagius findeth some want of moderatioÌ„ not only so but euen in Christ himself he looketh for some imperfection of piety which reports of Hierome if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth why might not Beza iustly esteeme him in the one iniurious to the Apostle in the other so blasphemous against Christ For what can bee deuised more vnworthy the Apostle then that in his answere to the high Priest he should shew too much spleene or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ theÌ„ that the grace wherewith he was indued was imperfect But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes in wresting the Scriptures wherein he hath most iust cause of complaint for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures or they are so weake and easie of themselues as they may be any way turned And truly he must be very desperate that should defend Hieromes interpretations Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin then of a thousand Augustines Luther is not moued though a thousand Austens Cyprians Churches be against him The answere is ready whosoeuer speaketh truth in that respect is more to be esteemed then a great multitude that could not discerne the truth They therfore that haue obserued the errors of the Fathers either those you haue named or the rest which heere also you recken vp Optatus Athanasius Hilarie Cyrill Epiphanius Basil Vincentius Fulgentius Lee and Gregory of Rome and haue admonished the Readers of them are so farre from malepertnes herein as that coÌ„trary they haue performed a work for the Church needfull profitable and acceptable to all good and godly men For as the true expositions of Scriptures are to bee expounded to the Churches so are the contrary to bee reiected Hierom. Paul August Hierome saith well it is the worst kind of teaching to depraue sentences of Scripture and to draw them perforce to serue our turnes Wherefore we professe with Augustine All writers and their sayings must bee i DVR That trial must not be made by Apostate Monks but by lawfull Pastors and doctors WHIT. pag. 372. And why not I pray you is it because they are Monkes I thinke not or because they haue departed froÌ„ you That is the matter as it none might touch reade examine the scriptures but those who haue plight their troth to you neuer to assent to the Scriptures though they directly coÌ„tradict popish doctrin we would willingly harkeÌ„ to lawfull Pastors examining interpreting the Scriptures such as you haue none Because with you examinatioÌ„s must not be made by the rule of the scriptures but after the wil of the Pope and all your Pastors haue tyed theÌ„selues to the iudgemeÌ„t of the Romish Antichrist that that which they see they wil not see if it displease the Pope by whose spirit they are guided iudged according to the holy Scriptures the authority wherof is more excellent then the whole nature of man is able to conceiue not that I disallow the opinions of the most worthy Fathers but I follow those that come nearest vnto the Scriptures and when the Scripture it selfe is manifest I embrace it before them all Whereas then we consider the sayings of the Fathers and examine them by the light of Scriptures we do here nothing vnwonted nothing boldly or arrogantly but you haue alwaies been fliers of the light of Scriptures as Tertullian speaketh Tertul. de Resurrect and therefore do so diligently prouide for lurking holes in the Fathers that you may alwaies haue some place of refuge For seeing Scriptures faile you what remaineth but that you seeke aide from any euen the meanest But you tell vs why we do so much anoid the Fathers I had rather you would tell vs why you doe so carefully auoide the Scriptures For say you they that cannot away with set times of Fasting must needs be
fathers themselues For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles because you saw that was too slender and that no man would iumpe with you in that point you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers Now the strength and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this a DVR Campian doth not dispute so but say he do what reproue you for he speaketh not of one Father but of the consent of all vvho flourished in one age whom Saint Paul saith Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church Eph. 4.11 WHIT. pag. 408. Then as you confesse I swarued not much from his sense But thinke you the reason is of force The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation If iâ— hold in the Fathers why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they vvhich if you once grant you ouerturne your owne cause And though they were Pastors of the Church yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church vvho either vvrit nothing at all or their vvritings are perished so that vvhat they deliuered vve possibly cannot knovv vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas vvhose bookes came to our hands Besides the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs except it vvere in the most corrupt ages Lastly the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church vvere men such as might erre and vvho had no promise to be kept from error if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures The Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures they haue attributed the chiefe place to these therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures and without sinne wee may desire no better This either is the sense of this place or else there is no sense in it And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie that I can hardlie discerne their scope for what I pray you can bee spoken more loosely The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers which all may well be false but more then one of them cannot be true I will giue you one example for a thousand b DVR VVe confesse euery Father may errâ— but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error which vvas contrary to faith WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith vvhether S. Paul lyed or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble and after confirme it vvith a lye both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine But particular dissentions you stand not vpon you desire to see some generall vvhen you grant euery particular may erre vvill it not follovv that all may But see an example In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon yea and by a third Councell held in Germany this decree vvas againe condemned One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued Againe haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome other Bishops of the Church did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants vvhich error continued a long time in the Church Thinke you these are not points of faith S. Paul writeth Gala. 2.11 that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face what a kinde of opposition this was you would know but cannot of your selfe find it out You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter one Apostle another and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it you goe to the fathers you enquire of Hierome August Hieron in Epistol and of Augustine two very famous lights of the Latine Church What do they tell you Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly If you approue the one you must needs reiect the other for you cannot consent with both Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you I know how sayth Hierome otherwise to account of the Apostles then of other writers Hieron in Epist. ad Theophilis They euer spâ—â—kâ— the trâ—â—â— these as man haue erred in some things Yet they read the Scriptures they were conuersant in them and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust and our defence most equall and iust I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations so you will confesse they are men extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens where they are now free Denizens I could wish that that which they constantly did either you would do search the Scripture or suffer vs to do then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice and commended to our diligent search you flie from and abhorre as theeues doe the gallowes you abandon them out of mens sight and yet you haue neuer done searching for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried mens inuentions decrees of Popes the corruptions of Churches fained and forged bookes diriges scrappes dreames and fables but the holy Scripture you touch not at all lest as I suppose they would make against you At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after and search the Scriptures c DVR VVe allow all to read the Scriptures as many as can vvell and safely do it And then vve account the search good and sound vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads but by the authority of the auncient Fathers WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature that you will not reproue that which is well done But may none else reade the Scriptures but men qualified as you write then very few must spend their labour in them But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life and desire to know Christ Joh. 5.39 and not the learned only as Christ hath commaunded Origen in Isas hom 1. and the ancient fathers haue done And would to God as Origen writeth we all would doe that which is written Search the
but because he was forced to follow a fellow that rode a wilde goose chase The benefit of which epitomie may be this If you reade the summe of euery answere before you reade each particular answer it will well prepare you to conceiue of the answere it selfe if after which I could wish also you would doe then it will present to you the whole as it were in a mappe When you haue read both and the whole booke if at any time you remember some thing you would see more particularly and can but tell or make some nie coniecture in what answere it is laid downe with reading of one page you may finde in what 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 be found Finally let it incourage you the â—â—ther to reade this Treatise because you shall finde in it whatsoeuer is by our late Papists in their Pâ—â—phlets and Treatises which they haue audaciously sent abroad in these few last yeeres when the lawes haue been laid asleepe and the iust seueritie of them greatly qualified I say whatsoeuer is in them either obiected against our Church and doctrine or spoken in their owne defence is here to be found and a solid answere giuen vnto them if any thing would giue them satisfaction If you bee but well exercised in this one booke out of it you may gather some smooth stones as out of a brooke by which though you should not be enabled to hold any long warre with a cunning Papist yet you may smite him in the forehead and fell him groueling to the earth 1. Sam. 17. as Dauid did the vncircumcised Philistine The Apostle exhorts that we earnestly contend for the maintenance of the faith Jude vers 3. which was once giuen vnto the Saints A naked and vnarmed man may well contend but shall neuer be able to maintaine any thing committed to him but it will soone be taken from him so may I say for the truth it is not words but weapons and weight of diuine reason that must defend it therefore must euery Christian souldier that thinkes to haue the crowne take to him such armour as Gods Armourie will affoord him Now those weapons if so be you cannot fetch so readily in the word of truth it selfe because of your infirmitie they are here brought to your hand and you withall are led by the hand to the particular places where they are in the word it selfe Now the Lord of hosts strengthen you in the truth and arme you with his grace that you may be able to stand against all the enemies of your saluation 2. Tim. 4.7.8 and that you may fight a good fight and finish your course and keepe the faith that you may obtaine the crowne of righteousnes which the Lord the righteous Iudge will giue at the last day vnto all those that loue his appearing Yours euer in the Lord Richard Stock The summe of the answere to the first Reason which is holy Scripture 1 PApiste account themselues disarmed if they must fight onely with the scriptures Page 24. nota 2 Of the number of the Canonicall scriptures that Luther and Caluine and their followers haue put out none which antiquitie and the purest Churches haue receiued Page 26 3 Campian was an Apostata not Luther Page 26 4 Luther onely thought not basely of the Epistle of S. Iames but antiquitie also Page 27 5 All Protestants highly reuerence this Epistle of S. Iames. Page 28. 30 6 Luther neuer writ so contempteously of the Epistle of Saint Iames as Campian affirmes Page 29 7 S. Paul and the Fathers haue taught iustification by faith alone Page 30 8 The place of S. Iames expounded and prooued not to be contrary to the doctrine of iustification by faith onely Page 31 9 Not Protestants of late but the Fathers of old haue put out of the Canon Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of Machabees and diuers other bookes Page 32. 33 10 The Papists cannot defend the Articles of their religion by the Canonicall scriptures but are forced to flye to the Apochrypha Page 34 11 Duraeus contrary to the Councell of Trent denieth traditions to be of equall authority with the scripture Page 34 12 Protestants haue denied no one booke or word of any booke of Canonicall scriptures Page 35 13 Angels do defend the elect but their hirarchy and degrees are without warrant of the word and their worship flat against the word Page 35. 36 14 Man hath no frâ—â—will by nature Page 37 15 The bookes of the Machabees are reiected by diuers Fathers and the Laodicene Councell ibid. 16 Neither prayers to the dead nor for the dead are lawfull Page 38 17 Seâ—â—en bookes of the Apochrypha were put out of the Canon by Hierome a thousand yeares before Caluine was borne Page 39 18 The 3. and 4. bookes of Esdra sometime were highly accounted by the church of Rome Page 39 19 Protestants haue not cut out of the Canon sixe epistles of the new Testament but honour them much neither haue the Lutherans Page 40 20 Augustine and Hierome in their difference for the number of the Canonicall bookes reconciled Page 41. 42 21 Meliâ—o Bishop of Sardis though he put the booke of Wisdome in the Canon yet he excludeth all the rest Page 43 22 The Laodicene Councell forbiddeth the reading of those bookes which are without the Canon and alloweth only the reading of thâ—se which we put in the Canon of the old and new Testament 43.44 The Councell of Carthage allowed them only for manners nota for three hundred yeares these bookes were not in the Canon so confesseth Duraeus nota Page 43 23 The Councell of Carthage denied the Pope to be vniuersall Bishop Page 43 24 The Papists crueltie farre surpasseth the Protestants iust seueritie Page 45 25 The scriptures haue in themselues many proofes that they are the word of God but the certaine infallible and sauing assurance is from the spirit of God Page 46. 47 26 Campian scorneth the iudgement of the spirit in respect of the iudgement of the Church as if they were contrary Page 46. 48 27 The Church can make no writing Canonicall neither doth the authority of it depend on the Church It hath in it selfe his owne authority Page 48 28 Without the spirit a man may haue some knowledge of the scripture but no faith The testiments of the spirit as not 〈◊〉 confute others but confirms our selues Page 45. nota 29 The Lutherans did not onely surde somewhat lacking in the Apocalyps but ouen antiquitie receiued it not you reâ—ected it Page 50 30 Luther preferreth the Gospell of S. Iohn and Paules Epistles before the other Gospels and why Page 50. 51 31 What a Gospell is and who especially is an Euangelist Page 51 32 Campian slandereth Luther as touching S. Lukes Gospell Page 52 33 Beza hath no more offended in charging S. Luke with a solecisme then Hierome did in charging S. Paul Page 53 34 The words of institution in the Supper of the Lord a little examined
256. nota 68 A belieuing man may haue remission of his sinnes though the Minister who pronounceth it intend no such thing pag. 256 69 It is not the dutie of the Minister of the Gospell to reade prayers by the houre but to giue diligence to reading exhortation and doctrine pag. 257 70 Christians are bound to obey the lawes of Magistrates but are freed from the religion of them Their particular lawes binde not the conscience though men must obey their gouernment for conscience sake pag. 267. â—58 nota The summe of the ninth Answere touching the sophismes of the Aduersarie 1 Iesuits be chiefe Sophisters and kings of all other in the kingdome of Poperie pag. 263 2 The sophismes of the Papists by which they would ouerthrow the marriage of Ministers and Deacons pag. 264 3 Pope Innocent thought marriage dutie to be an vnholy thing ibid. nota 4 Their sophismes for the Popes supremacie and his excellencie aboue the Emperor that he is not to be reprooued that he cannot erre pag. 265. 266. 267 5 Though one Pastor haue rule ouer one flocke it followeth not one must haue ouer all ibid. nota 6 Their sophismes for priuat Masse the Priests communicating alone that the people must haue onely one part pag. 267 7 Their sophismes that prayers must bee in an vnknowne 〈◊〉 us that the people may not reade the Scriptures pag. 268 8 Their sophismes that the bread is Christs bodie and that it is to be worshipped that election is for merit ibid. 9 Their sophismes that the sicke should bee anoynted that marriage is a sacrament That a Monkish life is warrantable by the examples of Elias and Iohn Baptist but it is vnsound pag. 269. nota 10 Their sophismes that there are seuen Sacraments that images must be set vp in Churches That we are iustified by charitie and not by faith ibid. 11 Their sophismes that men haue free will that Christ deliuered the Fathers out of Lambus that the authoritie of the Church is aboue the Scripture pag. 270 12 Their sophismes that all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation That men passe thorough the fire of Purgatorie to eternall life pag. 271 13 The place 2. Thes 2.15 doth not establish traditioÌ„s ibid. nota 14 The 1. Cor. 3.15 doth not prooue Purgatorie ibid. nota 15 Some sophismes of Campians ibid. 16 It is no sophisme from the commendation of mariage to ouerthrow the vow of virginitie pag. 272 17 The Prelates haue spoken most basely and impiously of mariage like to the ancient Heretikes pag. 273 18 They prefer virginitie before it without any Scripture and yet they make it a Sacrament and virginitie none pag. 272. nota 19 Mariage is honourable in all and impure in to degree pag. 273 20 Protestats vse no sophisme in disputing against merits ibid. 21 Papists teach that their merits dipped in Christs blood doth merit saluation that is that Christ hath merited by his blood that men might merit saluation pag. 274 22 That good works cannot merit is proued ibid. nota pag. 275 23 Neither Angels can nor Adam could merit any thing ibid. nota 24 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against worship of Saints ibid. 25 Saints are not to be worshipped or prayed vnto 275. nota 26 Duraeus saith the Saints are in farre distant places at once 276. nota 27 Papists blasphemies touching the Virgin Mary ibid. 28 Protestants vse no sophisme in disputing against the Masse and Purgatorie 277 29 Neither Masse nor Purgatorie is to be found in the scripture neither the names nor the things are there ibid. 30 In the Supper thâ—re was no sacrifice neither now can be nor vnbloodie sacrifice 278. nota 31 There is neither the name nor the office of a Priest in the new Testament appropriated to any one kinde of men 279 32 There is no sacrifice in the Gospell but that which is common to all to offer 280 33 The Church hath lawfull power to chuse her Ministers 280 nota 34 The Papists choise of meate and their set daies of fasting are ridiculous and superstitious 281 35 The examples of Elisha Daniel and Iohn Baptist will not warrant Popish fasts 282. nota 36 S. Paul reprooued the Galathians for obseruing dayes and times because they accounted it necessarie to saluation as Papists doe now teach 282. nota 37 Papists fastings condemned by the 1. Tim. 4.23 and differ from the old Christian fast ibid. 38 Aeâ—â—â—s was not condemned of the Church as an heretike for iudging of fasting as Protestants doe 283. nota 39 Auncient Christians fasted voluntarily not by canon or precept ibid. 40 The word Sacraments are the true notes of the Church 283.284 41 The Fathers in the greatest matters are wholy the Protestants 285. nota 42 Papists preferre the Fathers before the Canonicall Scriptures ibid. nota 43 By Aquinas his iudgement things are necessarily prooued by the Scripture but only probably by the Fathers ibid. The summe of the tenth Answere touching all manner of Witnesses 1 It is Campians witlesse kind of reasoning wheÌ„ an enumeration of all kind of witnesses to coÌ„clude all are on his side 299 2 They only find the way spoken of Isay 35.8 who are taught by Christ and be holy 300. nota 3 In visible particular Churches are good and bad not in the inuisible Catholike Church ibid. nota 4 No Iesuite nor any Papist can be in heauen because they haue the marke of the beast 301 5 Many Bishops of Rome are in heauen but neuer a Pope ibid. 6 Ignatius was not on the Papists side because he taught that a Bishop was aboue a King for Protestants hold the same for the administration of the offices of a Bishop Yet the King aboue him in commaunding him to doe them and in puâ—â—shing him if he neglect them 301.302 7 Protestants receiue Traditions so long as they agre with the writingâ— of the Apostles ibid. 8 Neither Telesphorus reuiued nor the Apostles ordained the fast of Lent ibid. nota 303 9 The decretall epistles of the Pope were not framed by them but by their parasites ibid. 10 Iâ—enaeus allowed not the succession of Bishops in Rome but while there was succession of truth with it ibid. 11 Victor could not make the Churches of Asia keepe Easter after the manner of the Romane Church but the Councell of Nice preuailed more ibid. nota 12 The Church of Smyrna neuer gathered the bones of Polycarpe for reliques but to burie them 304 13 Cornelius the Pope could neuer abolish the error which Cyprian and the Church of Affrike did hold ibid. nota 14 Sixtus was no more on the Papists side then on the Protestants because he had Deacons to help him to celebrate diuine seruice ibid. 15 Helenâ— iâ—â—he found the Crosse yet she worshipped it not as Pâ—pâ—â—tâ— do aâ—d thâ—t with â—aâ—râ—a 305. nota 16 Monâ—â—â— deâ—ired not to be sacrificed for at the Mâ—â—â—e for remission of sinne but to be
cannot long continue But you now begin to presse your aduersaries somewhat more forceably and you demaund of them for example sake by what authority they maime and robbe the corpes of the Bible I answere we offer no violence to this body neâ—ther do we cut off any which doe appertain to the substance and perfection of it we dash out no part of it we pull away no member For to vse your owne words we do not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures but cull out such as are not Canonical but foisted in and counterfeit But you would know who shal be iudge you make Caluin to answere for vs the holy Ghost and you suggesting that he giueth this answere to escape the iudgement of the Church if you enquire how we know these writings which we call Scriptures to be heauenly and giuen by the inspiration of God that is by what testimony we are perswaded that those writings are holy Scripture which are so called I would aske you with as much reason another question how know you the sonne is the sonne or how ye come not to doubt that God is God for we verely haue as much certeinty that thâ—se bookes are the sacred Scripture commended of the Lord to the Church written by the Prophets and Apostles proceeding from diuine authoritie as that the Moone is the Moone yea as wee are sure of any thing else which by vndoubted knowledge we are full assured of this answere Caluin also hath giuen you Iustit lib. 1. cap. 7. sect 4. cap. 8. toto writing that many things might be produced which would easily proue that if there be a God in heauen the Law the Prophets and the Gospell came from him yea and with many words at large he vrgeth it with most strong arguments such as may satisfie any reasonable man touching the authoritie and credit of the Scriptures There are in the bookes themselues proofes enough both certeine and perspicuous which will proue and demonstrate the credit of the Scriptures that no man need boubt of them But because the sense and reason of man is often times weake and easily distracted into diuers and doubtfull cogitations the inward and hidden testimony of the spirit must be had that men may firmely rest in the Scriptures For though outward testimonies will so conuince vs that for shame we cannot deny the Scriptures to be the word of God yet then only do we attaine a certeine and sauing ful assurance when the same spirit which writ and published them doth perswade our harts of the credit of them And this is that spirit which the Lord hath promised to his Church and which dwelleth in the harts of the faithfull and is as a seale vnto them he that hath not this spirit shall euer in himselfe be vncerteine and doubtfull though he heare the Church a thousand times What is the fault then you find Campian Caluin say you doth make the spirit Iudge thereby to escape the iudgement of the Church by whose authoritie all spirits are tried The iudgement of the Church ought not to differ from the iudgement of the spirit the same spirit gouerneth the whole h DVR What an absurd thing is this that you contemne the voice of the Church and allow your common people to iudge rather of the Scriptâ—res and giue all to the spirit when the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes WHIT. pag. 109. We contemne not the voice of the first Church wherein these were written and from theÌ„ commended to succeeding Churches But pag. 108. we much regard not the voice of your Romish Church for as we know there is a God though it tell vs not so much so that the Scriptures are the word of God though it be silent and by the same grounds that your Church knoweth the Scriptures to be the Scriptures by the same proofes may euery priuate Christian know them pag. 111. If you know not that the grace of the spirit is necessary to discerne the Scriptures then reade these places John 14 26. 1. Iohn 2 26 27. 1 Cor. 2 14 10. Esay 51 16. Now the same spirit who wâ—it them seales them vp to vs without which some knowledge may be had of them bâ—t no faith we may acknowledge them but not certeinly beleeue them without the spirit And if the Fathers haue obiected the Church against heretikes in the like case we will do the same For the testimony of the spirit is not of validity to confute others but to confirme our selues Church and euery particular beleeuer But your Church knoweth not this spirit no maruell then if it dislike the iudgement of the spirit yet I would haue you take this for an answere once for all that the authority of the Scriptures doth not depend vpon the iudgement of the Church for let the Church iudge what it will yet can it neuer by all the authority it hath make the Canonicall bookes to be no Canonicall and that those which are not Canonicall should be had in reputation as Canonical The Scripture hath it owne proper authority in it selfe not borrowed froÌ„ another And as little can the Church add authority to the Scripture as it can to God the authour of it But say you how commeth it to passe that the Caluinists spirit alloweth six Epistles which the Lutheran spirit doth disallow you go in a ring making only the repetition of the same things without any proceeding Those Epistles the Lutherans i DVR That the Lutheâ—anâ— do not like these Epiâ—iles tâ—ey of Magdeburg Centur. 1. lib. 2. cap. 4. tell vs plainely WHIT. pag. 117. What is that to vs who thinke as honorablie of them as you do but if they by the example of auncient â—hurches haue spokeÌ„ somewhat hardly of those Epistles is there heere any such difference of â—pirits All things are not reueâ—led to all a like all haue not the like measure of the spirit If any be otherwise minded God will in his time reueâ—le â—t to him doe not reiect nor dash them out of the new Testament yea they acknowledge them they make vse of them in vnfoulding of controuersies they expound them in their schooles and churches and they reade them both priuately and publikely vpon many of them Luther hath written k DVR By the same reason if Luther should comment vpon certeine of Aesops fables and Illyricus vpon al then by their spirit they are certeinly receiued into the Canon WHIT. pag. 117. And why may not Aesops fables be in the Canon if your Church please seeing your VVolfangus Hermannus affirme the Scriptures are of no more authority then those fables without the authority of your Church But I adde if you would haue seene it that they vsed them in preaching in expounding Scriptures in deciding controuersies and did interpret them both priuately and publikely Commentaries Illyricus vpon all That of the authority of those Epistles in times past the Catholike Church made some doubt they
but as if you had said It is no heynous thing to conceiue and bring forth an Infant Therfore it is none to deuoure it after it is borne heynous act It is therefore a figuratiue speech commanding vs to communicate in the Passion of the Lord. Doe you thinke this reuerend old man dotes or hath he not giuen a iudicious interpretation wel agreeing vnto the iudgement of the auncient I thinke matters yet goe worse on your side then they did before but perhaps you will say these are too auncieÌ„t to serue your turne heare then some of latter times Theod. Theodoret a Gretian and a learned man writeth thus in his Dialogueâ— x DVR Theodorets meaning is that the signes haue not lost their naturall properties though their nature be changed WHIT. pag. 214. If the naturall properties remaine then certeinly their natures must for esseâ—tâ—all properties can neuer be separated from â—heir natures yea in the words follow ng in this very place Theodoret affirmeth that the nature remaineth The mysticall bread saith he remaineth in the nature it first had in the figure and in the forme Mysticall signes doe not lose their proper nature This very speech quite ouerthroweth your Transubstantiation for if their proper nature remaine without doubt nothing can be Transubstantiated or changed Now the bread keepeth his proper and old nature therefore there can be no Transubstantiation but I will ioyne to Theodoret Marcarius whose homilies Morelius had out of the Kings Librarie and hath published them in Greeke and I suppose that you being a Frier will not reiect the testimony of so auncient a Monke he writeth thus In the Church saith he Marcar homil is offered bread and wine y DVR An antitype or resemblance of the type is not the type or figure but the substance signified by that type or figure WHIT. pag. 217. An antitype is neuer properly the substance of the type though sometime it be another type answering to it and both of them are but similitudes figures of the substance And sometimes a type and an antitype are both one and the same as Heb. 9.24 The Tabernacle is called an antitype of heaueÌ„ being the substance signified by the Tabernacle and no answering type to the Tabernacle And in this sense doe diuers of the Fathers vse the word Antitype as Basil Nazianzen Theodoret Chrysost antitypes or resemblances of his body and blood What saith he bread and wine but bread is already turned into flesh and wine into blood Ought a Monke to speake after this manner giue you them so slender a name as similitudes Pardon mee Campian this Monke was neuer vsed to speake after your manner neither was your Transubstantiation as yet come abroad what say you now are you pleased with this reuerend hoare head of the Fathers If you rest not heere it shall be free for you to appeale to any one of the whole reuerend company of the holy Fathers not one of them no not any one of them do I except against For I make no doubt but if they may be iudges you shall euer haue the worst From henceforth therefore do not cast any such calumniâ—â—ions vpon vs and boast your selfe of the bare names of the Fathers for the Fathers both in this controuersie and in many others are firme on our side As for the Fathers of whom you name many but I beleeue haue read but a few I thus answere you We are not the seruants of the Fathers but the sonnes When they prescribe vs any thing out of the Law and diuine authoritie we obey them as our parents If they inioyne any thing against the voyce of the heauenly truth we haue learned not to harken to them but to God You as Vassals and base seruants receiue whatsoeuer the Fathers saie without iudgement or reason being affraid as I think either of the whippe or the halter if euery thing they speake be not Gospell with you In few words say you this is their drift vnlesse thou wilt stand to their owne iudgement that are guilty there is no iudgement to be had Verily this fits you a great deale better then vs for you will receiue no iudgement but the iudgement of the Pope and Church of Rome which Church and Pope wee haue proued long agoe to be guilty of most heynous crimes and there hath been a perpetuall variance betwixt him and vs. Is there any equity then in your demaunds that we should stand to his iudgement who 〈◊〉 both a person guilty and an aduersarie to vs And well should we deserue to lose the cause if we would be so witlesse contenders Much truer speaketh Augustine Let one matter encounter with another Contra Maxim lib. 3. c. 14. one cause with another one reason with another by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures which are not proper to either side but common z DVR How foolishly do you alledge Augustine who maketh the Scripture a witnes of the truth not a iudge as you would haue it WHIT. pag. 243. If the Scripture be the witnes where shall we find a iudge answerable to this witnes Is it the Church Then must it be of more authority then the Scripture which heere you affirme not neither may it be graÌ„ted for the Scripture is the word of God therefore he that is the iudge of it must be the iudge of God himselfe To deny the Scriptures then the preheminence in iudging is to thrust God out of his throne Therefore as God so the Scripture the word of God hath the authoritie both of a witnesse and a iudge DVR Augustine euer thought that the Popes iudgement was the highest tribunall â—pon earth where all controuersies must be decided WHIT. pag. 244. Augustine neuer thought so but writ the contrary De ciuitat Dei lib. 15. â—ap 3. The Lord saith he hath penned the Scripture which is callâ—d Canonicall because it is of highest authoritie yea hee neuer once pressed the Arrians either with the authoritie of the Pope or of the Councell which vndoubtedly he would haue done neither could he haue done better if the highest iudgement had been in the Church witnesses for both And to their iudgements would we haue you to stand not ours As for other things you speake of I passe them ouer for you will reserue them for vs till another place and wheras you say you haue cited many and worthy places of Scripture we haue weighed those places in their ballances and haue found them to light to proue what you proposed And it is your vse indeed rather to take them by number then by weight But you charged vs with scorning at this and shifting them off we did nothing lesse all we did was to free them from your cauils We haue say you alledged the interpretations of the Greeke and Latin Churches I confesse it but we haue wrung all those weapons from you and haue by them battered all your holds But say you what say they
fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with Toâ—y Matthew and wâ—â—led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which â—e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Preâ—â—â—s vpon strange signes and marnâ—â—â—â—us â—â—â—racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkesâ— multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel coÌ„iecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpoÌ„ And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the
but indeed many of your Schooles defend him saying the kingdome of heauen is prepared for them vvhich haue merited it by their good works therefore hee chuseth no man to life eternall but with respect of merits S. Iames commaundeth that sicke persons should be anointed Å¿ DVR The sicke vvant health novv as vvell as then and therefore must novv haue the same helping remedie WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a signe of healing in those times of extraordinarie giftes in the Church your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health and so is friuolous therefore we must now euer and anon anoint the sicke This is a great mysterie t DVR The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte WHIT. pag. 764. Nay he himselfe expoundes it of the mysticall vnion betweene Christ and the Church therefore Matrimonie is a Sacrament Elias and Iohn Baptist liued in the wildernesse u DVR These men left a famous example of Monkish life WHIT. pag. 765. The Monkes life is not proued by their examples for Elias was commaunded to goe into the desert during perill they doe that without both precept and perill John Baptist indeede liued in the desert but wherein men did dwell to whom also he preached and there were many cities and townes in that desert Josh 15.61 what is this to idle Monkish life therefore they inuented the manner of life and discipline of Monkes There are seuen deadly sinnes x DVR Name him that thus disputeth WHIT. pag. 766. It is Iohn Lâ—dâ—vvicke in a booke intituled The golden vvorke of true contrition leafe 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church c. therefore there are iust seuen Sacraments God made man after his image y DVR Pope Adrian proueth not the vse of images by this place but saith it vvas signified by it WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confesse he alleageth that Scripture to proue the vse of images was signified by it and who but a superstitious doctor would haue done so therefore images must be set vp in Churches The chiefest of these is charitie z DVR The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest vertue WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things preferre charitie before faith but onely because it indureth in the life to come when wee shall not neede faith as Chrysostome expoundes it now faith onely apprehends Christ our righteousnesse and therein excelleth charitie Lastly you erre grossely in effect ascribing our iustâ—fication to the merit of vertue in vs vvhich onely is merited by Iesus Christ therefore we are iustified more by charitie than by faith I will goe Osea 5.15 saith the Lord to my place vntill they ponder in their heart and seeke my face which indeede he spake a DVR Do you thinke that God calleth men to repentace ironically WHIT. pag. 799. No but when men will not seâ—k God being called thereto by his bountie no maruaile though hee withdraw it from them and as it were laugh at their madnes of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures ironically and after the manner of men therefore men may be conuerted vnto the Lord by their owne meere will and disposition The Lord commaundeth vs to doe many things b DVR Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thinâ—s WHIT. pag. 770. Hee expoundeth his owne meaning that Adam before his fall could and that we in heauen shal be able to keepe all Gods commandements but he often saith that no man in this life can fulfill the Law of God DVR Men vse not to make lavves impossible to be kept WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans Againe when these lawes were first giuen man could performe them and vvee must not looke that God should alter them to fit our corruption DVR God could not iustly punish lavvbreakers if they could not keepe it WHIT. pag. 771. Answere then Eusebius Euangelicall demonst lib. 1 who saith that Moses Lavv vvas impossible to be kept of any man And Thomas Aquinas vpon Gal. 3. sect 4. saying Moses commaunded many things vvhich no man could fulfill therefore those things may be performed of vs. Christ descended to the dead therefore he deliuered c DVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel but to deliuer the Fathers from Limbus WHIT. pag. 772. Nay first proue you that he did go so to hel as you thinke for my part I beleeue it not but that his soule went presently to heauen Againe you begge the question saying he went to hell to deliuer the Fathers DVR I proue it by these Scriptures Zac. 9.11 Psal 68.18 Heb. 9.8 WHIT. â—acharie speaketh only of the Iewes deliuery from the captiuitie of Babylon Dauid speaketh of Christs ascending into heauen and triumph ouer his enemies and you childishly inferre hereupon therefore he descended to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes from Limbus but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrewes the true sense whereof is that we are not reconciled to God by the Iewish sacrifices but by Christ therefore you inferre that none of the Patriarkes vvent to heauen vntill Christ came out of hell and opened heauen by his bodilie ascension the Fathers out of Limbus The Church discerneth the Scriptures d DVR Catholikes say not so WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth and constraineth all Christians to rest therein bee it neuer so false and contrarie to the Scriptures else it doth condemne him for an heretike therefore the authoritie of the Church is greater than the authoritie of the Scriptures Saint Paul commaundeth the Thessalonians 2. Thess 2.15 that they keepe the ordinances which they had learned therefore e DVR What error find you in this argument WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent first you cannot proue hence that the things which S. Paul spake by word were not the same in effect which hee wrote to theÌ„ secondly if he wrote not all to theÌ„ which he had taught theÌ„ it followeth not that hee taught something which is not written in the Scriptures thirdly admit many things were left vnwritten yet it followeth not that all things necessary to saluatioÌ„ be not written nor do the ancient Fathers say so all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation 2. Cor. 3 15. Hee himselfe shall bee safe yet as it were through fire f DVR Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it selfe sheweth that it cannot bee meant of any such fire for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault but in your Purgaâ—orie faults are not consumed but you say punishments are sâ—ffred for fâ—uâ—â—s 2. S. Paul saith euery mans worke be it gold or wood shall be tried but you cast nothing but wood hay and stubble into your fained Purgatory 3. S. Paul saith euery mans worke shall be
but that he might vvith more liuely sense of his brethrens miserie humble himselfe to God as for John Baptists coÌ„tinuall diet it vvas locusts and vvild hony nothing like your fasting It is meere dorage and superstation to call abstinence only from some delicate meates fasting though other as delicate be eaten as you doe no Prophets nor auncient Christians in the Church euer fasted thus froÌ„ flesh may at his pleasure glut himselfe with all maner of dainties Or who can suppose that the Fridayes fast is holier then the Wednesdayes fast but he must too much sauour of Iudaisme If S. Paul reproued the Galathians Gal. 4.10 because they did obserue dayes and y DVR This is an auncient cauill of heretiks long since ansevered by Ierome and Augustine that vve obserue not the same dayes that Ievves and Gentiles did WHIT. pag. 824. The Church in thâ—ir time did not bind mens consciences to the obseruation of daies as you doe and as did the Galathians iudging it necessarie for Christians to fast at your set times which if it had done yet the authoritie of men must not preuaile more than Scripâ—ures moneths and times is it likely he would endure our Papists which erre more grossely and shamefully If he forewarned the Colossians that they would not be intangled with their superstition Colos 2.21 which thought that some certaine meates were not to be z DVR Saint Paul reprooueth there the practise of Ievvish ceremonies WHIT. pag. 8â—6 True and all other like them which are mans ordinances and doctrines as he saith plamely verse 22. of which sort yours are else shew vs Scripture for them touched not to be tasted not to be handled would he allow the papisticall choice of meates If he determined long since 1. Tim. 4.2.3 that it was diuelish and a DVR You sight against vs vvith the Manichees vveapoâ—s vvhom Augustine aâ—svvered against Faust lib. 30. cap. 5. That true Christians abstaine from certaine meates and fruites more or lesse as they please and are able to tame the bodie and humble the soule against sinne not as though thâ—se creatures vvere vncâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 817. Thus you make Saint Paul a Manichee but indeed he there condemneth them and all that forbid to cate meates vnder paine of damnation which you doe and that place of Augustine plainely sheweth how your fasts differ from the Christian fasts in his time first they were to tame and humble men yours doe not so secondly they thought no meates vncleane you say men are polluted by eating some forbidden thirdly they abstained from sith and fruites as from flesh in their fasts you doe not so fourthly they fasted as they thought good and could but you make generall lawes of fastings to binde men thereto hypocriticall to absteine from certaine meates if he were now liuing would he change his doctrine and command this abstinence to a Christian We truely for our parts do alwayes and very highly commend a true fast whether it be priuate or publike neither do we commend them only but also we vse them as this yeare last past may most plentifullie witnesse for vs during which publike fasts were most religiously obserued in very many places As for those fasts of Moses and Dauid Helias and Iohn Baptist and the Apostles wherein were they any whit like vnto yours for if fasting do consist in choyce of meates and in appointing set dayes as you resolutely iudge it doth informe me if you can that they either at any time b DVR The auncient obseruation of Lent of VVednesday and Fridates fast and of the Ember daies might haue informed you hereof WHIT. p. 828. 829. You play the Sophister here in graine for Moses Elias Dauid â—ohn Baptist and the Apostles nouerkept those fasts neither did they nor any of the auncient Fathers preferre fish before flesh in theirâ— fastings as you doe DVR Aeriuâ— vvas counted an heretike vvho taught the same doctrine of fasting vvhich you do Epiphan haerel 75. WHIT. pag. 829. 830. The auncient Church disliked Euslathius his eagernes against Aerius in this point as witnesseth Socrates l. 2. c. 43. Sozomen l. 3. c. 13. Aerius might be an Arrian and so an heretike but of fasting he taught the same with Augustine Epist. 86. that there were no certaine times of fasting appointed by the Apostles Tertullian contra Psychicoâ— witnesseth that in the auncient ChristiaÌ„ church meÌ„ vsed to fast voluÌ„tarily freely not by CanoÌ„ or precept Epiphanius defeÌ„ded Eustathius against the churches iudgmeÌ„t in this point touching Aerius preferred fish before flesh or vsed inioyned and yearely set fasts For Iohn Baptist vsed continually to fast in his manner and the others fasted as the times and present occasions required in which their fasts they absteined as well from fish as from flesh Therefore in one word to wipe away your imputation of Homonymie I denie that we vse any For in that that we require the spirituall fast we dislike not the externall 〈◊〉 Tim. 4.8 howsoeuer this outward fast be nothing profitable without the spirituall But this deceitfull argumentation if there were any such here is rather by inferring a weake consequeÌ„t then by Homonymie or equiuocation how beit what the truth is we haue sufficiently ciscussed You haste forward and ioyne vnto these a fourth manner of deceiptfull disputation Circulatio named Circulation which is when one after a few words to no purpose returneth againe to the same and beggeth the question I acknowledge it to be a grosse and vnsauorie kind of sophistry so to do but shew me an example of our so doing You propound one example namely about the true notes of the Church for heere you say we alwayes make circuits and rounds and vse that very same thing for an argument wherein the question lieth But how prooue you that forsooth because we say the notes of the Church be the word of God and the Sacraments And so we say truly for they who haue these haue a Church of Christ but they who altogether want these are vtterly without both the Church and Christ Let vs contend about these notes that it may be discerned whether you or we haue them Tell me in what Court shall we try this title before what Commissioner before what Iudge shall we commence our plea I suppose the word of God must be consulted with But you say you haue alreadie consulted with it and you now fauour our cause lesse then you did before But I say Campian we rest vpon the word of God and not on your iudgement Yea but say you prooue vnto me that this is the word of God nay it were more meete that you should proue it is not And I also require of you that you will do the same thing which you commaund me to do namely that you will proue your word and Sacraments to be the very same which Christ hath commended vnto his Church Wherefore this
is no more our fault then yours the controuersie is about the word of God You contend that you haue it I contrariwise defend that we haue it if you like not my iudgement why may not I dislike yours But you say we expound the word c DVR You doe so for you proue the sense of Scripture vvhich you alleage neither by authoritie of Fathers nor by decrees of Councels nor by the rule of faith that is the common vse and custome of Christians WHIT. pag. 831. The meaning of the Scriptures in matters necessarie to saluation is plainely taught in the Scriptures as the Fathers themselues confesse and may bee found out by religious conferring of easier and harder places and such like meanes and so we proue the true sense of them The Fathers expositions often erre and varie one from another as their writings witnesse and you vvill confesse the auncient Councels expound little of the Scriptures as for the vse and customs of the people it is no rule of faith at all nor must vvee expound the Scriptures thereby amisse I againe auouch that it is false which you say Whither are you now come at last go one foote further forward if you can Why say you I haue the testimonie of fifteene hundred yeeres This is nought else but a friuolous a foolish and an insolent bragge You haue not I say you haue not Campian You are euer heere deceiued and turne round againe as it were into a circle and are faultie in that same very thing for which you reprooue vs. Touching the Fathers I haue answered you alreadie In the questions of greatest waight they are wholly on our d DVR Jf it vvere so you vvould not extenuate their authoritie nor refuse to stand to their iudgement as you doe WHIT. pag. 833. We giue the Fathers their due but rely more vpon the Scriptures which are infallibly true you are driuen from the Scriptures and rake vp euen out of the Fathers ouersights whatsoeuer seemeth to fauour your errors neither doth it follow that the Fathers are not on our side in many and the greatest controuersies because wee say with Augustine that all controuersies of religion must not bee determined out of the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures side in those of smaller moment their iudgemeÌ„ts are diuers and they make for you in very few and those of least importance How much better would it stand with wisedome that as Augustine sometime wrote of Councels neither you should obiect Ierome against me nor I Augustine against you Aug. contra Maximian lib. 3. cap. 14 thereby to preiudice each side but that matter might be tried with matter cause with cause and reason with reason by the authority of the Scriptures Aug. Epist 111. ad Fortunatian For indeed as the same Augustine hath elsewhere taught vs we must not haue any mens disputations howsoeuer otherwise they be meÌ„ of sound iudgement and worthie praise in like estimation as the e DVR No Catholike euer esteemed any mans vvittings to be compared vvith the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 834. But Papists not onely compare them with but also preferre them before the Scriptures for they vvill not haue controuersies tried by the Scriptures but by the Fathers and they sooner allovv a sentence of one Father than many Scriptures so did not Angustine nor Thomas Aquinas Canonicall Scriptures Such an vnderstander saith he am I in reading other mens writings such would I haue other men to be of mine And because you haue mentioned Thomas Aquinas The. Aquinas 1. p. 1. q. 2. Art learne of him what manner argumeÌ„ts may be taken out of the Fathers writings Diuinity or holy learning saith he vseth authorities of Canonicall Scripture to proue or disproue a thing necessarily but it vseth the authorities of other f DVR VVe say not that the iudgement of one or tvvo of the Fathers but that the common consent of the Pasters and Doctors of the Church is the strongest argument to confute you WHIT. 833.835 Augustine and Thomas spake also of all men opposing onely Scriptures vnto them so that apparantly they taught that the consent of all Fathers and Doctors could bee but a probable reason and that the Scriptures onely yeeld necessarie arguments vvhich no consent of men though neuer so learned Doctors and Pastors can confute Further I say pag. 854. that you haue the common consent of all the Fathers in no one cause against vs yea that all the auncient Fathers doe together with vs vvith one voyce condemne your halfe Communion Transubstantiation reall presence sole Communion bread-vvorshipping externall reall sacrifice seruice in strange language your Popes absolute iurisdiction and many other such like Doctors of the Church to dispute of a thing probably These forsooth ô you truly learned Vniuersitie students are those so notorious sophisticall errors which Campian could finde worthie his censure in our mens writings I could wish you might haue this so famons a Sophister to canuas awhile at home in your Schooles then verily would it easily appeare how much truth excelleth falshood and how farre sound learning preuaileth against vaine bragging words for I know well such Sophisters as this is can neither any whit affright nor greatly perplex you EDMVND CAMPIAN The tenth Reason which is all manner of Witnesses THis shall be to you a direct path so that the simplest that bee neede not wander out of it For who is Esay 35. though he be but of the meaner sort of common people so senselesse so that he haue an eye vnto his soules health that cannot see if he looke but a little about him the path of the Church so plainely trodden that cannot keepe it if he dislike of by-wayes that lead him through brambles and ragged roches and places that cannot be passed These things shall be well knowne euen of those that be ignorant as Esay hath prophecied and therefore most manifest vnto you If you will * Campian bringeth nothing in this place but a continuall begging of the question let vs take a view of all things that are any where to be seene let vs trauerse ouer euery thing wheresoeuer it be All things do minister matter fit for our purpose Let vs ascend into heauen by imagination there may we finde such as through martyrdome Coelites are as ruddie as the red a August Serm. 37. de Sanct. rose and also such as for their innocencie while they liued do glister as beautifully as the white Lilly There may we see I say those * Of which not one was a Papist three and thirty Bishops of b Dam. in vit Poâ—â— Rom. Rome which for their faith were immediatlie murthered one after another There may we see such Pastors as throughout all nations vpon the earth shed their blood for the testimony of Christs name There may we see the stock of faithfull people that tread the steps of their Pastors There may wee see
that which shall not be vttered out of their shops must by their brain-sicke decree be reiected as a thing most rude and loath some They that are driuen to this horrible and detestable shift though their Armes be blazed neuer so farre abroad by their owne disciples though they buy and selâ— benefices though in their Sermons they cry out against Catholikes though they procure them the sword racke and gallowes yet are they ouercome naught set by horrible in mens sight and quite ouerthrowne For as much as the taking vpon them the authoritie of Censorors and sitting as honorable Iudges do dash out at their pleasure such holy Scriptures as they found would not serue their turne is there any body though neuer so simple which can feare these subâ—tle sleights of the Aduersaries who assoone as they should enter within your assemiblie that are learned men and flie vnto such their vsuall snifts as it were vnto their familiar spirit should though not with reproach full words yet at the least with trampling of your feet be thrust out of your schooles I would demaund of them for example sake bâ— what authoritie they mayme and robbe the corpes of the Bible They answere they doe not cut out any true Canonicall Scriptures but cull out only such as are not Canonicall that haue been forsted into the Bible and are indeed but counterfeits Who shall be iudge the * Campian refuseth the holy Ghost as Iudge holy Ghost for this very answere doth o 1. Lib. Inst. cap. 7. Caluin giue thereby to escape the iudgement of the Church by whose authoritie all spirits are tried why then do some of you cut off certaine bookes and others of your crew allow the same seeing you all vaunt of the self-same spirit The Caeluinists spirit alloweth of six Epistles which the Lutheran spirit doth dâ—sallow and yet both of you as you say haue the holie spirit The p Xistus Sen. lib. 7. Anabaptists doe call the historie of Iob a fable interlaced with tragicall and Comicall meeters how know they that by the spirit that instructeth them q Praefat. in Cant. Castalio that lecherous varlet made no more account of that mysticall booke of Salomon commonly called Cantica canticorum which the Catholikes do as highly esteeme as a Paradise of the soul as that heauenly food Manna which was laid vp and kept in the tabernacle and as delicate dainties in Christ then he did of a * This is falsoe for Castalio in his preface hath no such word baudie song and ribaudous taâ—be of a Courtly wayting mayd with her louer where had he this of the spirit In the Apocalyps of r Epist. ad Paul S. Iohn euery little title whereof S. Hierome affirmeth to containe some high and notable mysterie yet neuertheles these Å¿ Praef. in Apoc. seuere Iudges Luther Brentius and Kemnitius find I know not what lacking shooting all at this marke that the booke might be defaced and be of no authoritie whom did they aske the spirit * This is most false reade the answere to it Luther vpon a prepostorous zeale casteth a bone amongst the g Praefat. in nouum Test. foure Euangelists and preferring S. Paules Epistles farre before the three former Gospels in the end concludeth that the one only Gospell of S. Iohn is from henceforth to be taken for the gay for the true and the principall Gospell as one that asmuch as in him lay would gladly haue made the Apostles also partakers of his brawling in religious matters who was his Tutor the spirit Besides this that peeuish u Ser. de Pharis Publican Fryer was so malapert as to endeuor to make * This is false for Luther neuer spake saucily of S. Luke S. Lukes Gospell to be suspected to be written in a wanton style because therein good workes are often commended vnto vs whom hath he consulted with the spirit Theodorus Beza was so bold as to reprehend that mysticall word taken out of the 22. Chapter x Luc. C. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of S. Luke Hic est Calix nouum Testamentum in sanguine meo qui calix pro vobis fundetur This is the Cup of the new Testament in my blood which Cup shall be shâ—dde for you as very corrupt and euilly placed there because this sentence cannot admit any interpretation but of the * This is false for by no meanes can he endure thiâ— exposition wine of the Cup changed into the very true blood of Christ where learned he that of the spirit Finally when euery man committeth euery thing to his priuate spirit they belie the name of the holy Ghost most blasphemously Do not these fellowes which deale thus bewray themselues and shew what they are are they not easily confuted are they not in the assemblie of such men as you of both the Vniuersities be quickly perceiued and soone represt Ought I to feare disputations with these in defence of the Catholike faith who with much falshood haue handled the very word not of man but of God himselfe Here I passe ouer such things as they haue depraued in their false translations though there be intolerable matters wherewith I may well charge them I am very loath to take away any part of the matter either from my old Colledge fellow Master Gregory Martin a man of excellent great knowledge in the three tongues y Latin Greeke and Hebrew which will handle this matter farre more learnedly and copiously then I can or from some others which as I vnderstand haue already vndertaken this matter The matter that I now write of is farre more heynous and horrible There were lately discouered certaine pettie Doctors that vpon a drunken pange laid violent hands vpon the diuine Scriptures and haue condemned them as corrupted as maymed as falsified as craftily foisted in in sundrie places some parts thereof they haue corrected some they haue raced and some they haue quite pulled out And lastly they haue changed as the fortresse of this authenticall writing of Gods owne hand wherewith before it was fenced vnto certaine Lutherane spirits as though it were into vaine bulwarkes of their owne imaginations or into bare painted walles least peraduenture they should haue bin mum for want of matter when they should stumble at such places of Scripture as are plaine against their heresies Of which neuerthelesse they could no sooner shift their hands then suppe vp hot coales or eate hard stones Then this first reason seemed to me vrgent and iust which when it had euidently laid before mine eyes that the Aduersaries side was but counterfeited and feeble truely it incouraged me much being both a Christian and also somewhat beaten in this kind of studie in defence of the euerlasting Kings Charter to encounter with the remnaunts of these discomfited enemies WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the first Reason THat Campian which made you most cheerefull in the cause you haue vndertaken and
the fatte would be in the fire Campian if you had not one fit of rayling at Luther for this is to shew your selfe a right Iesuite as indeed you are shamelessely and audaciously to breake out into rayling and specially to teare Luther with most bitter reproches This is your facultie and profession this you haue vndertaken to do whatsoeuer youâ— leaue vndone surely he is an happy man whom the Lord thus honoreth with the enmitie and hatred of such wicked men for he cannot chuse but be an excellent man whom wicked men do so deadly pursue But you obiect against Luther his Apostasie look to your selfe Campian if you may not bee more iustly accused of this crime for doubtlesse you are either an Apostata or you were a cunning hypocrite But if it be Apostasie to forsake Apostataes then was Luther such an Apostata For hee abandoned theeues heretikes Apostataes and separated himselfe from that Curch in which that daily Apostasie from religion 2. Thess 2.3 which the Apostle did foretell was now come to the height they then who would not be Apostataes must flie from the Apostasie of your Church But say you Luther spake not so reuerently of the Epistle of S. Iames as was fitting It is well all you can challenge him with is touching this Epistle only he neuer did by any one word impeach the Gospels of Matthew Marke Luke and Iohn neither the Epistles of Saint Paul or Saint Peter only a little he taxed the Epistle of Saint Iames. Is Luther alone in this crime hath all Antiquitie receiued this Epistle of S. Iames Luther only reiected it vndoubtedly no neither was Luther ignorant what censure the auncient Church gaue of this Epistle * Lib. 2. c. pa 23. Eusebius adueÌ„tured to write expresly of this Epistle thus b DVR But Eusebius onely saith that this Epistle vvas thought of diuers not to be vvritten by S. Iames and denies not the canonicall authoritie of it For after hee saith It was receiued of many Churches WHIT. Pag. 12. You wrest both the words and sence of Eusebius for he alleageth not other mens opinions but his owne direct iudgement But if wee admit that you say it must the rather bee counterfeit for if Saint Iames did not write it and yet hee calleth himselfe James the seruant of God and of our Lord Iesus Christ must it not bee forced â—aue the pen-men of the Scripture vsed to take other mens names vnto them If you deny it to bee written by Saint James you must needes confesse it to be Apocrypha and so after your sense Eusebius hath reiected this Epistle which thing to him that readeth Eusebius will manifestly appeare And that hee saith many Churches receiue it and not all must needs proue that he thought it was not Canonicall Be it knowne to all men that this Epistle which is fathered on Saint Iames is counterfeit what can be written more plainely it may be you will except against Eusebius But tell vs why therefore not to stand with you Hieronym in Catalogo will you heare what Hierome saith who as you well know was an Elder of the Church of Rome The Epistle of Iames is held to haue been published vnder his name by some other The one saith it is counterfeit the other writeth that it was thought to be published not by the Apostle but by some other Why then are you angrie with Luther whom you see not vnaduisedly and rashly to doubt of the authoritie of that Epistle but therein followeth the iudgement and censure of the auncient Church for from hence it is very cleare c DVR Doth hee therefore doubt of the authoritie of this booke what shall vve then say to Caluin vvho hath plainely denied that the Epistle to the Hebrues vvas vvritten by Saint Paul and if you had not been a deceiuer you vvould haue alleadged Hierome vvholy for it follovveth Though by little and little in succeeding ages it obtained authoritie WHIT. Pag. 16 He that saith It is thus held and neither dislikes nor refures such a suspition sheweth he not himself also doubtful of it Caluin had some reason because that Epistle was not published in the name of Saint Paul as this was of Saint Iames. What comparison is there in these two the Epistle of Saint Iames hath his name in the beginning of it as the author of it so hath not the other the name of Saint Paul so that hee that denies that to bee written by Saint Iames must needes make it counterfeit But no such thing here Therefore may this be held to be canonicall though it be denied to be written by Saint Paul If you had read but a few lines more you should finde that I vsed no deceite neither had you causâ— to be so bitter And these words of Hierome prooue directly that the authoritie of this Epistle was sometimes doubted of that the first age of the Church doubted somewhat of the credit and authoritie of this Epistle But you will say it was afterwards receiued and Hierome witnesseth as much I inquire not how iustly that might be receiued in a succeeding age which once was reiected that the credit and authoritie it had not in the beginning it might gaine in time by mens calmnesse in iudging neither will I contend about the authority of this Epistle Let it be as great as euer any booke had we verily receiue it and put it in the Canon of the Scriptures for whatsoeuer Luther or any other may conclude touching this Epistle or lessen the credit of it any way yet all our Churches willingly imbrace it and iudge it written by the Apostle or some Apostolike man and in it do vndoubtedly acknowledge the doctrine and spirit of an Apostle * Caluin in argument in Epist. Iacob I saith Caluin willingly and without controuersie receiue this Epistle because I see no iust cause to reiect it Therefore obiect no longer vnto vs other mens sharpe censures and hard speeches whereof we are no wayes guilty for what is it to vs what other men thinke of this Epistle who dispraise no part of it neither detract any thing from the authority thereof But where I pray you writ Luther any such thing which you make mention of let vs see the place that we may perceiue how faithfully you deale You tell vs of a Preface he writ vpon the Epistle of S. Iames such as I thinke few men know for it is no where to be found amongest Luthers workes yet by accident I light vpon that preface and read it from the beginning to the ending in which not any of those things is to be seene which you mention so that we may easily coniecture what we are like to find of you in the sequell when in the beginning you are not ashamed to lye so palpablie For Luther begins his preface thus The Epistle of S. Iames though reiected of Antiquitie I much commeÌ„d hold very fitting profitable And in
Therefore you see there is no reason why for this cause Luther should either find fault with or feare the Epistle of S. Iames. And thus Augustine hath reconciled these two Apostles Iames and Paul that you may see that we are not broachers of any Noueltie Wherefore saith m DVR Augustine maketh nothing for you but against you WHIT. pag. 50. Augustinâ— affirmâ—th directly that S. Iames speaketh of a vaine and fayned faith which is as much as we here produce him for Augustine Aug. quaesâ— 85 quaeâ—t 76. the iudgements of the two Apostles S. Paul S. Iames are not contrarie each to other when the one saith a man is iustified by faith without workes and the other saith that it is a vaine faith which is without workes because S. Paul speakâ—th of workes which goe before faith Saint Iames of workes which follow faith at S. Paul himselfe sheweth in many places Therefore the Apostle S. Iames would not neither ought to detract any thing from the doctrine of iustification which Luther learned from S. Paul Yea all Papists and Iesuits shall sooner be torne asunder then this iudgement of Luther touching faith alone shall either quaile or be ouerthrowne From Luther you turne the edge of your speech to the whelpes of Luther for so you as an vncleane dogge terme men famous and flourishing with all good qualities But why you should so call them I well conceiue not vnlesse it be for that they neuer cease barking against your Bishops and Monkes and other Church robbers like your selfe But let vs heare what heynous thing those whelpes haue committed They haue on a suddaine put out of the true Canon of the Scripture Tobias Ecclesiasticus the two bookes of the Macchabees and many other bookes Say you of a suddaine Campian Is it true indeed that you are such a stranger in the writings of the auncient Fathers that you know not that long agoe these bookes were raced out of the Canon Looke I pray you into Hierome and out of him call to mind what antiquitie hath done That we may know saith n DVR Hierome saith that the former Churches did not receiue these bookes for Canonicall but denies them not to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 52. Hicrome affirmeth not only that these bookes were not receiued of the fore-going Churches for Canonical but himself oâ—ten times denies them to be such and plainely cals them Apochâ—ypha bookes which he wâ—uld neuer haue done if the Church then had taken them for Canonicall yea and as Duraeus confesseth they were not so taken vntill â—lmoâ—t 70â— yeâ—res afâ—er Christ Hierome Hieron iâ— Prologo Galiato Whatsoeuer bookes are more then these they are to be accouÌ„ted among the Apochrypha Therefore Wisdome which commonly is called the Wisdome of Salomon and the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach and Iudith and Tobias and Pastor are not in the Canon Will you that are but a Frier put these bookes in the Canon which Hierome following the iudgement of the auncient Church and the truth it selfe denieth to be in the Canon marke well his owne words They are not in the Canon You say that we haue dashed them out and why should we not so doe For saith Hierome they are not in the Canon Desire you any further testimonies Epiphanius saith as much as Hierome who after he had recited diuers bookes which you say we haue put out of the Canon he thus writeth as Cornarius renders his words out of the Greeke These bookes verily are profitable and helpefull Epiphan in lib. de mensur Ponder but they are not reckoned in the number of those which are receiued Therefore they are not to be found in Aaron neither in the arke of the Couenant But see out of Hierome more manifest and pregnant things Hieron praefat in lib. Solomon As therfore the Church readeth the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Macchabees but accounteth them not Canonicall Scripture so also these two bookes he meaneth Wisdome and Ecclesiasticus it reades for edification of the common sort not for confirmation of any doctrine of the Church If Campian you be ignorant of these auncient testimonies you are but a young souldier in that kind of fight where you would be thought a well experienced Captaine but if you know them you are too vniust and iniurious vnto vs to obiect to vs I know not what desporation because wee admit not those bookes in the Canon of the Scripture which Antiquitie tels vs directly were neuer admitted neither are to be admitted Caietan in cap 24. Mattb. And verily Cardinall Caietan feares not to auouch that he that writ the booke of the Macchabees in a certeine prophesie of Daniels was a lyer but the holy Ghost was neuer wont to be deceiued in the interpreting of the Scripture Now wheras you imagine that we are conuinced by those Oracles as often as we dispute against the defence of Angels as often as we dispute against freewill as often as we dispute against praying to Saints You must fiâ—st before you can conuince vs proue that an argument will conclude necessarily out of those bookes to confirme the doctrine of the Church which Hierome demeth and you shall neuer be able to proue though you call all the Iesuits to a consultation And seeing you obiect desperation to vs see hoâ— you bewray your owne miserable â—esperation who cannot establish the Articles of your faith by the Canonicall Scriptures but you she to the Apocâ—ypha whose authority hath bin and for euer shall be doubted of in the Church The Lord hath commited his Will and Woâ—d to writing and commended it to his Church Those writings with all diligence and piety we receiue and reuerence we are content with them and we maintaine theiâ— sufficiency let goe then these questionable obscure and Apochrypha bookes and out of these contend with vs about religion But your religion long agoe hath passed beyond the bounds of the sacred Scripture and hath broken forth into many superstitions And hence it is that you doe the thing than which nothing can be more malapert and intolerable that is make of like authoritie with holy Scripture not only the Apochrypha bookes but euery o DVR Pag. 5â— â—â—e do not affâ—me Traditions to be of the same authority with the holy Scriptures WHIT. pag. 59 Though Duraeus heere denieth it yet the Councell of â—rent doth with the like holy affection and reuerence receiue and honor them as it doth the bookes oâ— the old and new Testamâ—nt See Decâ—et 1. Sess 4. vnwritten Tradition whersoeuer you come by them at the second or third hand But what do I telling you of these things who shamefully haue aduentured long since to violate and infâ—inge all the lawes both of God and man Take this from me if you can demonstrate that we haue condemned or reiected any one booke or any p DVR Pag. 64. You haue raced out these words out of S. Iohn Euery spirit
â—hich diuideth Christis not of God â—nd the historie of the adulterous woman Iohn 8.3 WHIT. pag. 65. We haue not raced it out of the â—cripture for it is not to be found in the moâ—t auncient Greek copies but as we read it 1. Ioh. 4.3 Cyprian also l. b. 2. cap. 8. testim contra Iudaeos so reads it and Augustine also ad Poâ—â—ent lib. 2. cap. 7. reads bo h. The history of the woman taken in adultery we race not out though some of the auncient haue done and Beza though he demurred about it veâ— neuer dashed it out part and portion of any booke which appeareth to haue bin written and confirmed by diuine authoritie I will neuer contend any longer but yeeld you the day and giue vp our weapons to you But if we haue euer most faithfully kept the whole corpes of the Scriptures and haue seuered the true bookes from false and haue defended the heauenly truth of God and preserued it vncorrupt why doe you poore silly Fâ—ier cry out of our desperation when your selfe is so farre plunged in desperation it selfe that there is no certainty of your saluatioÌ„ but by the deprauation and corruption of the holy Scriptures Now in that you affirme we are conuinced by those oracles As often as we dispute of the defence of Angels of freewill of praying for the dead and of praying to Saints they are thing which we haue discussed a thousand times and haue exactly determined them out of the true oracles of God The defence of Angels is taught vs in the Scripture where we are taught that God hath set his Angels ouer certaine people Dan. 10. 12. â—sal 91.11 places and men and of this in general we nothing doubt but that Angels haue that commission from the Lord that they must prouide for mens safety and saluation So that we deny them not some kind of ministration yea we attribute as much to them as the Lord hath taught vs we should And as for your q DVR Denys â—as S Pauls disciple and he hath manifested such mâ—â—teries WHIT. pag 68. Why did not S. Paul who waâ— rapt vp into the third heauen and saw such great things declare vnto vs the hierarchy of Angels did he burâ—e it in silence and his disciple tell it abroad But Denys was not the disciple of S. Paul as shall in another place be proued Hierarchie and manifold degrees of Angels we are willingly ignorant of them and no whit enuy your knowledge who haue had the reuelation of such great mysteries from your Denys who hath that I may vse the words of S. Paul aduaunced himselfe in those things whic he neuer saw But it is another patronage of Angels which you defend and hold that we ought to worship them and call vpon them which the Scripture in plaine words forbiddeth for r DVR Saint Paul forbids onely the offering vp of sacrifice to Angels and making of them nevv mediatâ—rs WHIT pag. 70. S. Paul foâ—bids all worshipping of them and so prayers a swell as sacrificeâ— they being a part of worship pag 71. Chrysost in Coloss 2. hom 7. in these words Occumen in Coloss 2. whom you alledge do not interpret them for you but for our opinion and as the truth is S. Paul condemnes Worshipping of Angels Coloss 2.18 And the Angell once and againe called S. Iohn from this kind of worship Å¿ DVR Saint Iohn did nâ—t worship the Angell but tooke the person of those who held that Angels were to be worshipped with sacrifices that he being forbidden they might be reproued in him WHIT. pag. 72. John did not as you say for neither offered he any sacrificeâ— neither affirmeth he that he dissembled but saith directly I fell downe to worship before him You on the coÌ„trary say he fell not downe to worship And your Thomas vpon Apoc. 19. saith S. John intended to worship with Dulia And vpon Apocal. 22. with Latria See thou doest it not Apoc. 19.10 22 9. Tob. 12. I am thy fellow seruant and one of thy brethren worship God As for Raphael in t DVR The auncient Fathers haue cited the booke of Toby aâ— Irene Cyprian Hâ—la WHIT. pag. 73. Then will it follovv thâ—t out of what booke soeuer the Fathers haue alledged any testimony it must be of the Canon â—o the 3 4. bookes of Esdra for Augustine Cyprian Ambrose cite them yet your Church reiecteth them DVR Hierome putteth them out of the Iewish Canon not of the Canon of the Church WHIT. pag. 74. It is strange those Fathers should make them Canonicall when iâ— Hieromes time long after them they were not no they were neither in the Canons of the Church nor of the Ievves Canon Hieron in Prasat in lib. Salom. DVR Your English Synagogues reade Toby very much WHIT. pag. 76. And other Apochryphaeâ— but accounteth them not in the Canon Tobie we passe not greatly neither do acknowledge those seauen Angels of whom he speaketh All that which was spoken of Raphael or which he speaketh of himself iâ— far differing from the holy Scriptures and it sauoureth strongly of superstition The place of Ecclesiasticus doth not much trouble me neither should I the sooner beleeue u DVR pag. 76. If you deâ—y free wilâ— to man by nature aâ—d that be cannot but sinne you establish the Fate of the Sâ—â—ickes WHIT. pag. 77. No more then vvhen vve say Angells necessarily doe good and diuels euer euill Againe vve deny not mans freewill to naturall and ciuill actions but to the duties of faith because till the sonne hath made him free he must needs be a seruant of sinne free will though he an hundred times should repeate that sentence Ecclesiast 15.17 Gen. 6.5 before man is life and death seeing that the x DVR The Scripture doth not teach that men haue lost free will by nature WHIT. p. 78. What then meaneth it 1. Cor. 2.14 If man cannot vnderstand the things of God and eternall life how can hee will them or doe them Phil. 2.13 The will and deede is wrought in vs by God Gen. 6.5 If hee can thinke nothing but euill where is free will Scripture teacheth that man lost his freedome by sinne the same thing teach the y DVR The Fathers doe not deny free vvill WHIT. pag. 79. August Enchirid cap. 30. Ambrose de vocat gent. cap. 9. Bernard de libr. arbâ—t doe deny it Fathers also and euery mans owne experience howsoeuer these words may be vnderstood of mankind as he was sometime in Adam For thus he writeth a little before Ecelesiâ—it 15. vers 14. He made man from the beginning and left him in the hand of his owne counsaile if he speake of the first condition and state of man and of his perfect and vncorrupt nature wherein he was created of the Lord he speaketh very true but if he made it now free for vs as we are naturall men to chuse or
light and euidence of the storie hath wrung this from you But tel vs who made question of them Did heretikes onely Then account Eusebius Hierome amongst heretikes who haue reported to vs their owne iudgement of these Epistles with the iudgement of the Church Can you prooue that they were accounted heretikes in the first and pure ages of the Church who tooke out of the Canon these Epistles For the Epistle of Saint Iames I haue answered sufficiently we neither reiect that nor any of the other Epistles which you falsely accuse the Lutherans to haue cut out this is no fauit of ours whom you knowe to be farre from Lutheranisme quarrell then with them as for vs we neuer cunningly shifted off the testimonies and allegations of those Epistles Can you in equitie require any more of vs At length then forbeare to vpbraide vs with I knowe not what desperation frowardnes and presumption wee willingly admit receiue and allow of your owne bookes which your selfe make vse of in disputation to their iudgment will we stand if you can conuince vs by these you winne the field That which you adde of the booke of Ester and of almost three whole chapters of Daniel is nothing but cauilling The booke of Ester we account Canonicall as much as by Gods authoritie is written in b DVR As if the Hebrevv tongue were the rule of the Canon and of diuine authority WHIT. pag. 90. No booke is a part of the new Testament which is vvritten in Latin yet is not Greeke the rule of the Canon Hebrew but those fragments which commonly are annexed to that holy history of Ester we cannot so highly account of as for those three chapters they are none of Daniels of which read if you please c DVR Hicrome to Ruffinus seemeth to approue those three chapters of Daniel WHIT. pag. 92. Erasmus noted that Hierome delt craftely hauing in his preface shevved he thought othervvise Hieromes preface vpon Daniel And there you shall find that not the Anabaptists only but the auncient Iewes haue reiected and derided them But Campian why doe you trifle thus were you wont to build much vpon the authority of those bookes did you in these lay the foundations of your faith why then do you seeke to make vs odious by these bookes which if they were neuer so Canonical would further your cause neuer a whit the more Now you much commend Augustines modestie VVho August de doctrin Christ. lib. 2. cap. 8. say you hath made a Catalogue of the bookes of holy Scripture farre better then either the Iewes or Sectaries I could wish you Iesuits had a little more modestie that ye might be more like Augustine for all men speake and cry out of your male pertnes and insolency But Augustine counted those bookes Canouicall which we do not true I deny it not but what of that is not Augustine opposite to Hierome for Hierome expressely denies those bookes to be nuÌ„bred in the Canon And Augustine setting downe the whole Canon of the Scripture doth annex these to it It seemeth there is a great difference in their iudgements for those which Hierome denies Augustine affirmeth to be Canonicall both famous men and such as haue deserued well of the Church of God how then may we satisfie Augustine whom Campian obiecteth vnto vs No otherwise then as the truth is The termes of Apochrypha and Canonicall Hierome vseth in one sense and Augustine in another Hierome accounted all these bookes Apochrypha which were not written in Hebrew Augustine though in deed and in truth he differed not yet he gaue this name especially to those bookes which were not fraught with fables and lies such as those times afforded very many For so he writeth lib. 15. cap. 23. de ciuit Dei Though there be some truth found in the Apochrypha bookes yet they haue no Canonicall authoritie there being so many lies in them Therefore he names in the Canon the booke of Iudith and Toby and Ecclesiasticus other of that sort because there was more truth and sinceritie in them then in those common and diuulged fables Therefore Augustine vseth the terme of Canonicall Scripture more largely then Hierome and of Apochrypha more strictly vnlesse happily we will suppose that of set purpose Augustine would differ from Hierome in a thing of that moment Besides the Romish Cardinal Caietan in fine comenta in histor veter Testameuti of whom we spake before writeth that certeine Councels with Augustine accounted these bookes Canonicall because they were rules for manners not for faith and doctrine And what reason Augustine had to plead for the booke of Wisdome De predest Sanct. c. 24. least it should be turned out of the Canon let him looke to it himselfe this very booke Hierom whom you Iesuits vsually preferre before Augustine hath by name excluded and from the selfe-same place where Augustine confirmeth the authority of this booke euery man may gather that it was not commonly receiued in the Canon for when Augustine cited a testimony out of that booke He was taken away Wisd 4.11 least wickednes should alter his vnderstanding many of the brethren who were present cried out It was not alledged out of a Canonicall booke d DVR But you reuiue not Augustines ansvvere and hovv he obiected against them the consent of all Bishops faithfâ—ll Laitie c. WHIT. pag. 97. Augustine doth not accuse them of impudency or sacriledge for denying it nor reprouâ—s them much only he saith it is better then other treatises vvhich I acknovvledge And the consents of the former he alledged to proue that a sentence of this booke is not lightly to be reiected seeing many Churches did reade it though all did not receiue it as himselfe saith de ciuit Dei lib. 27. cap. 20. Now it is like they neuer would haue reiected the argument and testimony of this speech if the authoritie of that booke had been Canonicall in the Church And yet I denie not but that Antiquitie might thinke more reuerently of this booke then of other of the bookes of Apochryphaes For I obserue in Eusebius that c DVR Melito affirmeth this booke to be Canonicall WHIT. pag. 98. Be it so yet he reiectes all your other and what haue you got by it But by the name of Wisdome some thinke he meaneth the Prouerbs of Salomon Melita the Bishop of Sardis in a certeine Epistle written to Onesimus wherin he setteth downe exactly the number of the sacred bookes of the old Testament and accounteth this booke as one of the Canon yet he mentioneth not one of the others which we call Apochrypha neither Toby nor Iudith nor the Macchabees nor Ecclesiasticus nor yet any of the rest for which you striue so much yet he affirmeth that he tooke great paines to know exactly those auncient bookes and professeth that he fully attained his end Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. After saith he I had learned exactly what
Luther whom you say doubted not to taxe S. Lukes Gospell Serm. de Pharis Publi as if it were written in a wanton stile because therein good workes are often recommended vnto vs. Was there euer read or heard of the like impudencie audaciousnes and treacherous dealing in any man The place you note in the margent I haue very diligently and heedfully obserued that I might discerne wherin Luther hath shewed such male pertnes but I haue not found one vnholy nor dishonorable terme vnfit to be giuen to S. Luke as being an heauenly Euangelist For that which Luther propounds to himselfe is to take out of mens minds a scruple which S. Lukes often mention of workes might moue in them lest any happilie might thinke that S. Luke by often speaking of works should detract somewhat from faith or place our iustification in our workes And this is as you affirme saucilie to giue S. Luke a wipe if you can tel me of any greater matter I will no waies defend or excuse Luthers malepertnes But what malepertnes is this of yours Campian whom neither the feare of God nor the reuerence of men can restraine froÌ„ writing or diuulging of those things which your owne conscience tels you are most false and you cannot passe by Beza neither without the like Calumnious censure Who say you was so bould as to reprehend that mysticall word Hic est calix nâ—uâ—m Testameâ—tum in sâ—â—guine meo qui calix pro vobis fundetur This is the cup of the new Testament in my blood which cup shall be shedde for you aâ— corrupted and depraued I see well where your error is in following that corrupt and adulterous vulgar translation for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you thus translate a DVR I confesse there is a Metonymy in the cup the cup being put for the blood WHIT. pag. 130. Then this cup is as much as this blood Then see what a sentence you haue made This blood is the new Testament in my blood which is shed for you As if Christ had said This blood is the new Testament in my blood And so heere are two bloods and the one in the other Hic est calix nouum Testamentum This is the cup of the new Testament when the words are rather thus to be placed Hic calix est nouum Testamentum This cup is the new Testament and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being a participle of the present tence you translate by a verbe of the future tence Qui fundetur shall be shed for you for Qui funditur is shedde for you But you dare not goe a haires breadth from the vulgar translation for feare of incurring that curse of the Councell of Trent But heere Theodor Beza apparantly is caught in a haynous crime for he writeth that Luke hath committed a Solecisme what then I pray you a very foule fact and very intolerable Is it so indeed how shall we then defend Hierome who writeth that Paul committed such solecismes in his words that by no good ordering any good sense could be made of them In cap. 3. Epist. ad Ephes If S. Paul might commit Solecismes in his words why may we not thinke S. Luke may doe as much and if Hierome without sinne might accuse S. Paul not to speake properly or scholer-like why might not Beza note some want of propriety of speech in S. Luke for you are wide Campian if you thinke this any thing diminisheth the authoritie dignity of the Scriptures for Hierâ—me construeth it quite contrarie Let vs looke therefore vpon the place of the Euangelist that we may iudge where this fault is The words runne thus This cup is the new Testament in my blood which is shedde for you If you change nothing in the words and exclude all incongruitie then these last words Which is shed for you must be referred to the first This cup. And so this should be the meaning This cup is shed for you But not the cup but the blood of Christ was shed for vs. But you will say the cup is put for the wine in the cup. So that whether you will or no you must acknowledge that in these words there is a trope or figure though you Papists vsually deny the same and vehemently cry out none of them is to be taken figuratiuely But you your selues in these words make two figures first you take the cuppe for the wine in it then the wine for the blood of Christ which in no hand you can do without a figure therefore heereafter stand not vpon words for if you will now stand to the words you must either graunt that the cup was shed for vs or you must admit a solecisme and vnproper speech If we will read them as Basill doth Basil in Eth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which blood is shed for you the meaning wil be plaine when these words which is shedde for you are referred to the blood of Christ These are Campians collectioÌ„s of such things wherein our men haue offended against the authoritie and dignity of the Scripture These he crieth out do euidently open our diffidence and desperation these are those things he propoundeth vnto you that are most learned of the Vniuersity Whose iudgement I am therefore also wel contented to stand vnto because I well know your learning and wisdome together with your studious endeuours in the best authors to be such that this sillie foolish sophister with all his slaunders and lies shall neuer be able to remoue or corrupt you for what matter hath he brought or what inuention which may seeme to sauour either of deepe learning much reading or witty conceit Therefore you shall do wel to set light by the threats of this Philistine and to cleaue with constancy to that holy religion which you haue learned out of the holy Scriptures as also proceed in that course of vertue and learning you haue begun that the Iesuits with all their inchauntments may lose all their labour in seeking to seduce you Hitherto Campian hath busied himself in discoursing vnto vs what he could concerning the holy bookes being desirous also to deliuer vnto vs such things as we haue depraued in our false translations saue that as he saith he reserues this labour for his old Colledge fellow Gregory Martin some others whom he well knoweth will performe it farre more learnedly and copiously then himselfe Therefore if you thinke good we will expect this Martin of whom you speake and whom I shall easily conceiue to be a man of more learning then your selfe vnlesse he be a very doult indeed And I doubt not but we shall be able to maintaine our translations both Latin and English against your Martin and all your Colleagnes And as for those petty Doctors whom you lastly reproach I neither know them nor the nature of their offence But when once your friend Martin shall come abroad who now perhaps is hammering some speciall peece of worke we shall
changed so that it is no maruell if the custome of the Church at one time interpret the Scriptures after this manner another time after that Was there euer the like bouldnes heard of that men would wrest the eternall and immutable word of God which euer hath but one and the same sense to serue the will of the Church that is of the Pope of Rome Thom. 1. â— 1. art 10. besides this you haue made so many h DVâ— The Fathers and Antiquity haue euer made these foure senses of the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 163. To faine such foure senses in euery sentence differeth not much from a learned kind of madnes Allegories I confesse many are in the Scriptures but such as the holy Ghost himselfe hath made but to make other Allegories when the words may be vnderstood without a Trope or when the Grammaticall sense is not absurd and repugnant to sound doctrine I thinke is too great bouldnesse and temerity A Tropologicall sense is not a new sense differing from the Grammaticall but one â—s it were with it Finally if the Fathers as men haue erred must we needs follow their errors The Fathers reiected the errors and false interpretations of their predecessors why may not we deale so with them senses of euery place to wit an allegoricall a tropological an anagogicall sense that by your Ledgerdemaine you haue abolished the true and natiue sense Now Campian since you know that this is the manner of your Church in the interpreting of the Scripture than which what can be more corrupt how dare you presume to reprehend our manner of interpretation But we follow no other course then that which the Fathers haue prescribed and which the thing it selfe argues to be most fit For that is our course which Augustine aduised we interpret obscure places by those which are plainer we obserue the phrase and stile of the Scripture we weigh circumstances we compare scripture with scripture we go not one iot from the Analogie of faith They who take this course adioyning their harty prayers that the Lord would open this sealed booke vnto them and teach them the true sense of the scripture shall neuer need to runne to Rome and enquire of that sacred Oracle of the Pope who himselfe neither vnderstandeth the true sense of scripture neither is able to expound them to others But to returne now to Campian what is the vsuall fault he finds in our dealing with the scripture and what be the arguments by which he doth confute vs Let vs demaund saith he for example sake of our Aduersaries what caused them to deuise this new opinion whereby Christ is excluded out of the mysticall Supper We Campian do not i DVR If you place Christs body and your supper so farre asunder how do you not exclude h m from iâ— WHIT. pag. 168. It is true if things that are seuered could no way be ioyned but by a corporall ouching but without it it may fitly be as all beleeuers are ioyned together though they be farre distant and distracted one from another as Iewes Grecians and all other godly make but one body with Christ what is that bond of this vnion but the power of the spirit Such an vnion is this in the SacrameÌ„t and it hath the some bond exclude Christ out of the Supper neither do we otherwise thinke of the Sacrament then both Christ hath taught vs and the old Church hath prescribed We certeinly affirme that the faithfull in the supper receiue whole Christ God and Man we beleeue and teach that they eate his body and drinke his blood Neither doubt we to affirme but that he that comes to the supper and doth not in the supper partake of Christ that he is in danger of condemnation Doe we now exclude Christ from the supper But whosoeuer includeth Christ in the supper as you doe he faineth and forgeth a new Christ to himselfe he confoundeth heauen and eartâ— together he offereth violence to nature and muâ—â— needs admit innumerable absurdities Wherfore we following the scripture as our schole-masters not taking vp any new opinion place the naturall and humane body of Christ in heauen for so the Apostle Peter speaketh whom the heauens must conteine vntill the time that all things be restered Act. 3.21 yet the k DVR Theâ— is Christ as present in Baptisme and in the word and wheresoeuer your faith seekes for him as in the supper yea as present to the Fatherâ— in the old Testament as now to vs. WHIT. pag. 169. So questâ—onlesse he is vnlâ—sse all men be without hope of life and saluation who are depriued of the Supper For John 6.53 yea all Christians communicate of Christ alike as well such as come to the supper as they who cannot partake in it And that he was present to the Fathers it is proued 1. Cor. 10.3.4 vertue the communion the benefit of this body we exclude not from the supper but stifly maintaine that in the supper whole Christ is present to each mans faith This is the summe of our opinion which I no lesse doubt to be the true sense of the scripture then that Christ is Christ or that to be scripture which is scripture This opinion out of all others which we hold haue you made choice of as an example to impugne and gain-say Let vs see now how scholler-like you acquite your selfe If they name the Gospell say you we ioyne with them The very words make for vs. This is my body this is my blood I acknowledge the words do but I enquire now for the sense of them whether they should be so expounded as your Church teacheth that the bread is Transubstantiated into the bodie and the wine into the blood of Christ or by a Trope and in a mysticall sense that the bread is the Sacrament the signe and symboll of the body and so the wine of the blood of Christ as we interpret them Whether opinion hath more truth in it we will now discusse As for that which you tell vs of Luther I suppose you will not expect any answere from me and vndoubtedly in this thing Luther was farre more opposite to your opinion then ours For he euer condemned your Transubstantiation as it is for an accursed inuention and fiction of Satan Luther we acknowledge was a man who though he saw the truth in many things yet he might erre in some things his good things wee embrace but wee are bound by no law to defend his errors But how shal we find out the meaning of this saying Let vs trie out this say you by the words thereto adioyning Nothing can be spoken more truly nothing more fitly nor more ingenuously And verely I could wish you would alwaies doe as you pretend in this place to doe sist out the meaning of the scripture by the circumstances of the words But what are the words adioyning My body which is giuen for you my blood which is shed for you
profound diuines with what * Two Bishops were taken in adulterie and put to death Illyric deuotion with what lamentations with what abstinence and fasting with what flowers of Vniuersities with what knowledge of strange tongues with what sharpe wits with what studie with what endlesse reading with what store of vertues and exercises was that sacred place replenished I heard with my owne eares Bishops reioyce being men of great birth and very well learned of which one was Anthony Archbishop of Prage who created me Priest for that they had been brought vp certaine yeeres in that famous Schoole so that they acknowledged no benefite that euer the Emperour Ferdinando bestowed on them to whom otherwise also they thought themselues no little beholding to be more princely and bountifull then this was that by him being sent in Embassage from Pannonia they sate in the Councell of Trent together with the rest of the Fathers there present This thing the Emperour full well perceiued who greeted them in this sort at their returne We haue maintained you in an exceeding good Schoole why made the aduersaries no hast hither being promised to goe and come safe that they might openly haue confuted them against whom they croke like Toads out of their hoales They haue broken promise say they with Husse and Hierome who the heads of the Councell of Constance That is a lye Ioh. Huss for they made them no promise And yet Husse had not been put to death if that he false and treacherous villaine as he was not only by an escape which the Emperour Sigismundus had forbidden him vpon paine of death and being taken was brought backe againe but also by * This is false for he broke no conditions breaking certaine couenants which he had made in writing with the Emperor had not lost the benefit of that safe conduct Husse was hedged in for his hastie knauerie for whereas at his countrie in Bohem he had stirred vp barbarous tumults and was therfore commanded to appeare before the generall Councel at Constance he contemned the prerogatiue of the Councell and made suite for a safe conduct to the Emperor The * Note Emperour sealed him one all Christendome which is greater then the Emperour vnsealed it again the arch heretike would not recant and therfore he was burnt Hierome of Prage As for Hierome of Prage he came priuately without any safe conduct at all to the Councell of Constance and being apprehended did appeare and had libertie to say what he could and was verie curteously intreated and suffered to goe abroad at his pleasure Hee was cured of his disease and abiured his heresie hee fell againe and therefore was burnt But wherefore do they so often inculcate and call to memorie this one example amongst sixe hundred Anno 1518 Let them peruse their chronicles Martin Luther one hated both of God and man personallie appeared at Augusta before the Cardinall Caietane and did he not belche forth of his venemouse gorge what poysoned speeches he could and at length being protected with the Emperour Maximilians safe conduct went he not safe away Anno 1521 The same Martin Luther being sent for to come to Wormes though hee had both the Emperour and almost all the Princes of the Empire his Enemies did hee not vpon the Emperours word come and goe safe Finally did not the ring-leaders of the Lutherans and Zuinglians in the presence of Charles the fifth the open enemie to all heretikes Conqueror and soueraigne vpon a truce graunted them exhibit at an assemblie at Augusta August confess Vide acta Conc. Trid. the confession of their faith which before they had so often altered and went they not without hurt away Likewise the councell of Trent prouided for the aduersarie most large warrants to come and goe safe but he would not vse the same He beasteth forsooth of himselfe in corners where when he can vtter three greeke words he may seeme to bee a great learned man He flies from the light which would make a slender scholler to bee accounted learned and so aduance him to seates of great dignitie Let them purchase for vs English Catholikes if they loue their soules health * There is not the same reason such a safe conduct in writing wee will not alleadge Husse for our excuse but make our speedie repaire to the court putting our whole trust in the Queenes Maiesties word But that I may returne thither from whence I digressed All generall Councels are on my side the first the last the rest these shal be my weapons Let the aduersarie expect a well headed dart which he shall neuer be able to shake off God graunt that Satan in him may be quite ouerthrowne and Christ reuined WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the fourth Reason THE next place is concerning Councels not much differing from the former for what is a Councell but the flower and as it were a little modell of the whole Church And therefore whatsoeuer may be said of CouÌ„cels it appertaineth to the nature of the Church but when as these for more plainnes sake are sometimes distinguished I doe easily permit you to propound them distinctly a DVR But you coutemne the authority of the holy Ghost speaking by Councels which al the auncient Fathers haue had in singular respect WHIT. pag. 290. You accuse vs falsely for howsoeuer we assent not with you who make them shoulder the Scriptures with equall authority because we know that both they might and also haue grossely erred in many things as the Fathers haue confessed and yee your selues cannot deny yet wherein they are consonant with the Scriptures we embrace their authority and haue them in singular respect and estination And in preferring the Scripture before them we follow but the example of the Fathers August de Baptis contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. idem contra Maxim lib. 3 cap. 14. de vnitat Eccle. cap. 16. Hieron in Galatas Ambros Epist. 32. Now the name of Councels is honorable their credit singular and their authority of great esteeme and you doe neuer more insolently bragge then in this place for when you doe but name Councels you thinke that you haue sufficiently confuted your aduersaries and promise vnto your selfe assured victory Neither will I go about to extenuate the dignity of Councels woÌ„dering that b DVR Nazianzene dâ—d not iudge inturiously nor writetâ— bitterly of Councels as you suppose but only aâ—fiâ—med that the fraud and malice of the heretikes of those times hindred the assembling of lawfull Councels WHIT. pag. 264. It seemeth you haue not read his Epistle or but very sleâ—gtly â—eeing he therein plainly setâ—eth downe two reasons why he absented himselfe from the Councell when he was called fâ—â—st the weaknes of his body and secondly his iudgment concerning Councels which was that he thought such assemblies were to be auoided because he had seene no good of any Synode and that hereby occasions
suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced whatsoeuer they haue decreed heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels Councels not only may erre but also sometimes haue erred In the Artic of Religion Artic. 21. and that in these things which belong to the rule of piety and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation hath no vertus nor authority vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ouâ— of the holy Scriptures Cite you now these words and then contest as you call it your sweet couÌ„try And in like maÌ„ner this your most deare countrie in which you were borne brought vp and graced doth contest intreat and beseech you by all those things which are vnto you most sweeâ—e and best esteemed that you desist any more in this bâ—dde cause to be troublesome vnto her that you will noâ— corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion that you will make more preciouâ— account of her dignity then of a forraine enemie and that you would at length returne thither from whence you haue straâ—ed And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country if you could euen for a litle space lay aside that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome and brought with you hither into England But let vs heare what is this your contestation If say you you will reâ—erence these fourâ— Councels you will chiefely honâ—r the Bishop of the chiefâ— Sâ—â— that is Peter And so do we ascribe great honour vnto Peter and that worthily neither doe we contend with you about him but this affirme that those things which were proper vnto Peter cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope who was neuer like either Peter or Paul And in truth what madnes is this so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues when in the meane time you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits will thinke that Peters faith piety and all the rest of his vertues haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent from so many other Popes of whom a great number were not men but monsters This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage and fit to be taken away Quouis helleboro dignum with the mad mans purge and as one saith for those diseases reprehension is the best maâ—â—â—r of cure Should I entitle your Gregoriâ— the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome with the name of Peter doth he teach doth he feed Christs sheepe surely he cannot Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle or of a Bishop nothing lesse How therfore doth he demeane himselfe Sitting in the Vatican he prouoketh to warre moueth seditions armeth subiects against their Princes and filleth the whole world with vproâ—â—â—â— Did Peter thus behaue himselfe is this to be Peter can you deny that these things be true and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor that is due to Peter being so vnlike him in conditions But let vs further examine your words You will say you chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea that is Peter but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea or of Peter neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop then that decree of Nicene Synode for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome neither doth it attribute any more to him then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch Alexandria and the rest of the other Prouinces If you please you shall heare the words of the Councell Concil Nicen Can. 6. d DVR This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches For vvhen as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria alleage the custome of the Church of Rome they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome as the mother Church froÌ„ which she hath all her authority And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin The same Fathers likevvise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church because they alleadge her custome and example as you ignorantly inferre seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour as from a superious It is no maruell if Paschasinus being the Popes Legate spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea neither is his testimony to be regarded being a party Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke and not Nicene for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek and not in the Arabian tongue The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that iâ— was counterfeite Let the ancient custome be in force which was in Aegypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity ouer all these things because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome and in like manner at Antioch and in the rest of the Prouinces let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches You see Campian I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders Ruffin lib. Decimâ— And after this same manner doth Ruffinus if you do not credit vs interpret this Canon This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria and in the citie of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe with the care of our Churches which appertaine not vnto his charge And so you see that if you had been well aduised you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell Act. 4.16 But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e DVR The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea that you ca with no shifts auoid it For therein
be quenched But you are alwaies harping vpon this string that they are bound by the lawes of a vowe Cyprian lib. 1. Epist. 1. 1. Pet. 1. therefore let Cyprian make you answere Å¿ DVR The words of Cyprian are not to be vnderstood of Virgins already consecrated vnto God but he willeth those who will not perseuere in virginitie that they doe not consecrate themselues to Christ but rather marry WHIT. pag. 343. Cyprian speaketh plainly of such Virgins as vvere alreadie consecrated for hee reprehendeth such as hauing consecrated themselues to Christ did liue incontinently and vvilleth them if they vvill not perseuere in chastitie to marrie lib. 1. Epistol 11. And Erasmus thought thus as appeareth by a marginall note of his Here marriages are permitted to holy Virgins If they haue by their vowe consecrated themselues to Christ 1. Pet. 1. let them perseuere honestly and chastely without any feined deuises But if they will not or cannot perseâ—ere their best course is to marrie And would Cyprian thinke you Campian haue giuen this counsell to Virgins if he had iudged such marriages wicked or no better than publike incest as you in your intemperate stile tearme it And indeed how much more honest course were it for you Monkes and Friers to auoid your too too publike and notoriously wicked fornication by imbracing chaste marriage for so it might come to passe Plus secund as your olde Pope Pius was wont to say That many of you might be saued in marriage which are now damned in single life But he that is filthie let him goe forward in his filthines vnto his olde age and let him that is holy â—lie vncleanenesse and prefer sanctimonie of life before vice and wickednes And these are the maine matters which you haue deliuered vnto vs in that your graue contestation and haue laboured to perswade by interposing the authoritie of Councels But you might haue considered Campian that the counterfeit names of Councels ought to be of farre lesse authoritie with vs then the most vndoubted truth of Gods word And whereas you further affirme that The Synods of other times and namely that of Trent are of equall authoritie and credit with those first Councels I must tell you I beleeue you not although you promise and take vpon you to proue it when need requires You promise indeed much but performe nothing But here I intreate the godly Reader and beseech all Christians that they would attentiuely marke what Campian here auoucheth to wit that all Synodes and namely that of Trent are equall to the foure generall Councels which foure Councels are by t DVR Gregorie doth not match the foure Councels in equall authoritie vvith the foure Gospels but onely saith that as hee doth vndoubtedly and certainely beleeue the scriptures so also the foure Councels WHIT. pag. 348. Gregorie saith that he doth imbrace and reuerence the foure Councels as the foure bookes of the Gospell Epist libr. 1. Epist. 24. And what is this but to make them equall For if there bee any inequalitie wo cannot imbrace and reuerence them both alike Gregory whom Campian citeth marched in equall authoritie with the foure Gospels from whence it necessarily followeth that all Councels of other times are of the same authoritie and credit with the foure Euangelists I will not vrge this poynt further neither will I now shake you vp as you vsually doe Master Luther but rather leaue you to bee beaten with the rod of mens silent iudgements After this you being shadowed with this impenitrable shield of Councels enter the lists and obserue whether your aduersarie conuaieth himselfe for so great a warrier you are such a skilfull Champion and so fierce in fight that assoone as you but shew your selfe forthwith all your enemies betake them to their heeles and eftsoones you declare how you meane to behaue your selfe in this fight and what a great slaughter you intend to make But take heede Campian least that may worthilie be applied to you which is spoken in the Prouerbes He that is rashly confident before the conflict is commonly a coward in the combate You speake much of the dignitie of Councels which we also acknowledge to be very great but neuerthelesse the holy Ghost is not bound to multitudes of men to stately preparations nor to sumptuous pompe And we may often obserue that in Councels there is much contending amongst contrarie factions and sometimes the greater part preuaileth against the better You say that Luther durst presume to affirme that hee preferred the iudgement and suffrages of two good and learned men before the Councels And in truth why might he not preferre them and who could iustly finde fault with that speech Seeing Gerson the Moderator of the Councell of Constance doubted not to preferre the iudgement of one man before the whole Councell u DVR Gerson did neuer preferre the iudgement of one man before a vvhole Councell WHIT. pag. 349. It is vntrue for he thus writeth We ought rather to bâ—leeue in a point of â—octrine a simple man not authorised but yet excellently learned in the scriptures theÌ„ the Pope Againe a man thus learned ought to oppose himselfe against a generall Councell if he perceiue that the greater part incline to that which is contrary to the Gospel either through malice or ignorance Gers de exam doctr 1. par Considerat 5. We are saith he to giue more credit vnto a man learned in the holy Scriptures alleaging catholike authority then to a generall Councell Tit. de elect can signifiâ—â—sti which also Paâ—ormitan hath confirmed writing in this manner We ought saith he rather to beleeue a simple lay man alleaging the Scripture than the whole Councell together You say further That Kemnisius dared to peise the Councell of Trent in the ballance of his owne giddie braine But Kemnisius did not examine that Councell by his owne square but by the rule of Gods holy word And what gained he say you and answering your selfe in your owne question you say nothing but infamie If Kemnisius haue not your good word it is no great wonder for he hath atchieued that by his learning vertue and industrie that he may seeme worthie of enuie and hatred from such as you are But if true and deserued praise be due to good deeds he hath obtained an honourable reward euen the euerlasting glorie of a good name Yea say you if he take not heede he shall be buried with Arrius But it behooued you Campian to trouble your head rather about your owne then Kemnisius his funerals and take you heede least for your euill deedes there be a sepulchre prouided for you amongst the damned Now here againe you begin more highly to extoll the Councell of Trent as though we knew not the notable carriage and behauiour of that famous and goodly Synode But for my part I easilie allow you to be so farre in loue with it neither in truth will I become your riuall
liued in great distresse yet answered his challenge That subtiltie follie impudency and saucines of Iewel which the fore said writers haue luckily discouered hath done so much good to the coÌ„mon sort of people in England that within my remembrance I dare boldly say there scarcely hapned any one thing more profitable to the afflicted English Church then this ProclamatioÌ„s forth with were set on euery gate that no such * But Bishop Iewel published the whole booke of the Aduersaries that all might reade them bookes might lawfullie be read or kept in their houses whereas Iewels exclamations at Paules Crosse did almost extort the same out of the writers hands But they that came to the scanning of this matter found that the Fathers were all Catholike that is on our side Neither did g Lib. de vita Iuclii Laurence Humphrey conceale this blow giuen him and his fellowes who when he had highly extolled Iewel otherwise noted yet want of * This is false he neuer vpbraided him with any impudencie discretion in him for this one thing that hee for his part had allowed the iudgements of the Fathers in matters of controuersie which when the said Laurence Humphrey without any circumstances plainly protesteth that he neither hath nor will haue any thing to doe I did once also familiarly request Toby Mathew who new for preaching beareth the bell whom for good learning sake and likely seedes of other good vertues I dearely loued that he would plainly tell me whether he that so diligently read the Fathers could be of that side whereunto he laboured to allure his audience He replied no if he both read them and withall beleeued them * This is most false they who giue most to the Fathers are most dissenting from you This his answere is very true and I perswade my selfe that neither hee now nor Mathew Hutton who as I heare is a famous man and bent much to study the Fathers nor any other of the Aduersaries which do the like do otherwise thinke Wherefore yet I might come surely to this combate to encounter with such who as though they had a Wolfe by the eares are inforced to discredit their cause for euer whether they reiect the Fathers or stand to their iudgement For by doing the one they trusse vp their trinckets to flie away and by doing the other they are streightwaies strangled WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the fifth Reason which is the Fathers NOw Campian calleth vpon the Fathers from whom because hee presumes of a firme defence he earnestly desireth a conflict not like those light skirmishes of men in the streets but a serious and constant disputation such as Philosophers vse Campian you see hath a better minde to conuerse with Philosophers than with Diuines for being furnished with Rhetoricke and Logicke and hauing spent most of his time in often declaiming and in inuenting and answering sophisticall captions he doubteth not of a famous victorie if Philosophers were Iudges But Campian these matters are not to be disputed among Philosophers which are otherwhiles deceiued with probabilitie and apparance of truth following that opinion which themselues iudge most agreeable to reason This question in hand must be discusted in the assemblie of most graue and learned Diuines whom no iugling of words no subtiltie in disputation no wit no cunning no youthfull insolent boldnes in quarrelling lying or soolish vaunting can once moue much lesse remoue them from the truth they are perswaded of Here can you not haue libertie to bragge of your counterfeit deuises Philosophie may not sit as iudge in these controuersies neither will those things wherein you chiefely trust be heere of any authority you must leaue your owne erroneous and endlesse walkes and be drawne perforce into the compasse and limits of Scripture and true diuinitie For Christ and his Apostles as that discreete man said in the Nicene Councell commended not Logicke and vaine subtiltie vnto vs Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 8. but a naked opinion consisting in faith and good works And this simple and sincere word of truth will easilie dissolue all your cauils will dispell your artificiall mists and will hold you fast as in a net so that the more you struggle to get out the faster and straiter are you tied But you haste to the Fathers and say If we may once come vnto them the warre is ended Now I must tell you you make too much hast and ouerslippe many things Is the battaile ended say you Why who had the victorie This is verily childish and too ridiculous but yet vsuall in your combats to triumphe before the victorie But I would heare how you haue finished the warre with such admirable expedition For say you the Fathers are as surely ours as Gregorie the thirteenth himselfe the most louing Father of the Children of the Church Giue me leaue to answere you in your owne words My friends who are present can you forbeare langhing What could be affirmed more weakely fondly or absurdly Call you him the most louing Father of the Churches Children whom wee knew to bee their furious and mortall aduersaries And conclude you that other to bee as true as this I graunt aswell the one as the other for both are most false What thinke you haue you not got a famous victorie And thus Campian you vse to make an end of battailes and put to flight great armies of aduersaries What remaineth but that as Conqueror you bee crowned with a Laurell garland and carried with triumph into the Vatican and solace your self many yeeres with your deare Father Gregorie that good old man But now Campian proceed and prosecute the victorie which you haue gotten We haue say you whole volumes of the Fathers which doe fully distincty and purposely declare that Euangelicall religion which we now defend Now you muster and reckon vp your armies whereby you procured this victorie looke well to them you were best and lay sure hold of them lest they reuolt and forsaking you come to our Tents for you force them to bee with you against their wils So that in the most dangerous and important fight they flie vnto vs with speede and doe most sharply assault and batter you But let vs consider your volumes The two fold Hierarchie of Denys the Martyr what orders doth it teach vs what sacrifices what rites Assuredly it teacheth vs nouelties vnheard of in the Scriptures we therefore leaue both them and their author wholy vnto you For though this Denys whosoeuer he were was both for time ancient and in his stile of writing not vnlearned yet that he should be the Arâ—â—pagitâ— whom Paul at Athens conuerted to the Faith is altogether incredible If you aske me a reason of this my opinion I pray you reade diligently and consideratly that which Laurentius Valla and Erasâ—us of Roteradam haue written of him Both of them perswade by no fained surmises but by very weightie reasons and such as I weene you will hardly
away Aeneas take Pius What shal I further recite Petrarch Mantuan and other Poets both learned and famous which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie all things were then so out of order that all sinnes might without controulâ—â—ent both be practised and openly blamed I need not to seeke farre remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine not many yeares agoe at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you though of it selfe it bee little worth Thus he saith Cornel. Bicontin in concil Crident Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition from faith to infidelity from Christ to Antichrist from God to Epicurisme Behold the Marks of your Church suâ—â—â—stition infidelity Antichrist Epicure for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter But Campian the more you defend the integrity of your Church the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it Our aduersaries say you doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church This we confesle and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise which you remember and yet those praises by you mentioned doe not belong to that Church alone but were giuen also to other Churches Rom. 1. â— For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica 1. Thess 1.8 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing Rom. 1.9 so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians 1. Thess 1.3 What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ Rom. 15.29 thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull Rom. 16.19 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes and their obedience was euery where spoken of know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this But we grant you that at this time it was holy what would you more Act. 28. Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint This also wee grant what more 1. Pet. 5.13 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there calling it Babylon We deny not this And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon for I doubt not but it is the same of which h DVR Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ aâ—d persecuted Christians WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. Jâ—â—n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist for when â—e wâ—â—teth Apoc 18. â— who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation the mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth yet I cannot be so easily perswaded that i DVR Yet Oecumenius Hierome Eusebius Tertullian to say nothing of others do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome is as if you should doubt whether euer Romulus Iulius Caeser or Pompeie was there For if Cyprian Eusebius Doâ—oâ—heus Epiphanius Optatus Hicrom and many others may not be beleeued vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied for I desire authority of Scriptures not the opinions of men I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well That whereas the whole gouernment Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men as vpon a rotten threed for what if many Histories say he was there if the Scripture say no such thing what assurance can be of it for matter of faith the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there But who knoweth not that that which one deliuereth at the first may increase by fame and be by many reserued to posterity At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome and him haue many followed since and hence from the common rumors and suspiâ—ions of men sprung vp the Popes chairâ— And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing when there is no place of Scripture for it nay when many places are against it These specially Galat. 2.7.9 Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome for so many yeares it vvas against both his order of life and his faith Act. 28.22.23 Novv they could not be so ignorant if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Epâ—stles and in them spake of many of the brethren but neuer once named S. Peter supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church Galat. 2.1.2 But he ought rather to haue been at Rome as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar Besides the Histories themselues are in such â—ariety of opinions that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv some say he came â—o Rome in the first yeare of Claudâ—us the Emperour some in the second some in the fouâ—â—â— and some in the tenth yeare and it may be that none of these is true sure it is all cannot be true Peter meanes Rome in this place here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus could yet neuer proâ—ue that Peter was at Rome But you take this for granted and as alreadie prooued which if any man once deny then like the Mathematicians you haue done and can goe no further But why may I not reasonably think that Peter meaneth that Babylon which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assiâ—ians in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes Galat. 2.9 vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause I feare I should trie your patience too much In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon and hereafter at your leisure you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered You may not now bee angrie with vs if following Peters example from hencefoorth wee also call Rome Babylon Now I hope at length you will rest and be
some filthines About the most of which seeing that you haue had an answere made you by him whom you name Reuerend Charke I maruell that you haue returned them to vs heere againe There must needs be great lacke of true imputations seeing that you haue no varietie at all of false ones And seeing that my fellow souldier and companion in Christ William Charke did labour diligeÌ„tly in these things those things which are largely enough confuted by him shall bee run ouer now by mee briefely and shortly It shall bee therefore enough for mee to cut in sunder these your peeces which haue been before so broken in shiuers as that they might seeme able to hurt none Wherefore now spue out these your morsels of reproches And heare ye them If the wife will not or cannot let the maid come A filthie and vncleanely speech as it seemeth Luther wrote a little booke of marriage in the second part whereof hee remembers three causes whereby hee thinketh marriage may be dissolued The first is Impotencie another is Adultrie the third is Desertion Now hee expoundes that to be desertion when as the wilful and obstinate wise can by no meanes bee perswaded to performe the office of due benouelence to the husband for there are some such froward wiues found that although the husband doe fall ten times into whordome yet they regard it neuer a whit Wherefore Luther thinketh it fit for the husband to fray his wife with words and to threaten hir on this manner If you will not another will If the mistrisse will not let the maide come With whom if threats preuaile not let him conuent her before others and bring the matter to the Church But now if she be neither moued with priuate threatnings nor by the publike reproofes of the Church then saith Luther diuorce her and take Ester into Vashties place Only to propouÌ„d these things in this maÌ„ner is a very euident confutation of Campians reproch For who doth not marke what counsaile Luther gaue to the husband not that he should presently take his mayd but that he should propose threats of diuorce to his obstinate wife and breake her stomacke by that meane Now as for this opinion of Luther about this kind of diuorce though I doe not defend yet you cannot accuse it c DVR You are ignorant that vvith vs only adultery is the cause of diuorce WHIT. pag. 688. Nay you are ignorant of your owne Canons for to omit others see what the Tridentine Fathers decreed If any shall say that the Church doth erre vvheÌ„ shee decreeth that for many causes diuoâ—ce from bâ—dde and cobabitation may be had either for a certaine or vnlimited time let him be accursed Do not you now differ from your owne Councell as alâ—o from the Apostle For among you there be infinite causes of diuorce so as in so great liberty of diuorce it is maruaile that any marriage stood in force If Luther had at any time written any such thing as wee reade was written by Clement whom you brag to haue beene Pope of Rome what tragedies would yee haue raised Heare Campian I would haue you marke whereto this speech tendeth d DVR If you had seene some old copies or vvaighed the scope of the Epistle you might easilie haue seene that the place is corrupted WHIT. pag. 689. I can be content you should defend Clement for I easily thinke that Clement would neuer speake so dishonestly But when you father Epistles vpon auncient Bishops such as they neuer writ God would shew your perfidie by manifest demonstrations For copies we haue none whether old or new but from you and many I haue seene and they all haue it Yet remember that you here confesse the Popes decretall Epistles to bee corrupted why 〈◊〉 forged which other where you perempâ—orily deny The common vse of all things Clement Epist 5. that are in this world ought to be to all men But through mens naughtines one said that this was his and another that and so there is a diuision made betweene mortall men Finally one of the wise men of the Grecians knowing this to bee so saith that all things among frieÌ„ds ought to be common Now among al things without doubt are husbands and wiues You may think you heare some Plato discoursing of the communitie of things alleadge some like place of Luthers What theÌ„ followeth after in those patches of yours For because the carnall knowledge of the wife is as necessarie to euery one as meate and drinke and sleepe are e DVR Tertul de Monog Hieron lib. 1. contra Iouinian vnderstand it only of those vvho are married that they might lawfully keepe and haue their wiues still WHIT pag. 690. That which Tertullian writ for the heretike Montanus that you greatly approue of And hee that knoweth not Hierome to bee further carried in the contempt of marriages then the Scriptures do allow of he accounteth the authoritie of Hieromes writings more then of the Word of God But the Apostle reiecteth this interpretation for when he commandeth that euery man should haue his wife to auoid foâ—nication vvho seeth not that this law concerneth the vnmaâ—ried who are forbidden fornication as well as the married And after in the 9. vers he speaketh to the vnmarried If they cannot absteine let them marâ—â—â— for it is better to marrie then to burne Therefore hee doth not onliâ— commaund that they vvho haue vviues keepe them still but that they vvhâ—â— haue not should marrie if they found it necessarie for them to auoid incontiâ—â—â—cie The Apostle commandeth 1 Cor. 7.2.9 that euery one for the auâ—iding of fornication haue his wife and euery woman her owne husband and that they that cannot conteine should marrie They therefore who haue it not giuen to them by God as that they can alwaies be without wiues to such it is necessary that they marry wiues if they will bee honest and chaste For I confesse that marriage is not necessarie for them who may wallow without punishment in all manner of vncleannesse and lust But goe forward Marriage is much better than Virginitie and against this Christ and Saint Paul perswaded Christian men The same things doe not agree to all men and that which is most profitable to some one may be contrarie to the inclinations of others Virginitie is one of those indifferent things which are as they are vsed for it is not simply good for then it were vnlawfull at all to thinke of marriage but after a sort f DVR VVhat is this else but euen the same that Iouinian ansâ—vered vnto Hierome the rest of the auncient Fathers As Augustine shevveth De. Sancta Virginitate cap. 21.22.23.24 WHIT. pag. 691. Whosoeuer will be single for this only end that he may liue so much the more 〈◊〉 â—ase and in the more pleasure and not be troubled with the necessary cares of marriage do deserue to be blamed with Iouinian And this sort
professed themselues Christians if they were Christians they were ours But Helen say you was ours who is euery way famous for finding the crosse of Christ That which Ambrose reports of Helen is very suspitious and Golasius Bishop of Rome calleth these things that were bruted of the inuention of the crosse Dill. 15. Sanct. Romana new reuelations But graunt that Helen found the Crosse for it is not greatly materiall Did she adore it for that is to the purpose Heare what Ambrose saith She found the stile Ambros in Orat. suneb Theodos she worshipped the King not the wood certainly for this is a heathenish error and a vanity of the wicked Wherefore though she found the Crosse that is no reason to prooue her yours seeing she worshipped not the crosse as you do for not finding but adoring of the l DVR VVee giue not Latria diuine worship to the Crosse WHIT pag. 868. The distinction vvill not excuse you for you reach that the Crosse and the Image of Christ is to bee worshipped with Latria or diuine worship Thom. 3. part 25. q. act 3. 4. which is so horrible and pernicious that it exceedeth all the superstition of old Idolaters Crosse makes a Papist Monica is ours who at her death desired they should pray and offer sacrifice for her at Christes altar Monica desired not that the m DVR Shee desired to be sacrificed for and what other sacifice is there but the sacrifice of the Altar to take away the hand a ritiue against vs. WHIT. pag. 870. That I haue answered in Augustines 〈◊〉 words Confess lib. 9. cap. 13. hee only desired to bee remembred at the Altar It was a custome in the Church to make honorable mention of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles the Virgin Mary the Martyrs and Confessors whom they neuer thought to be tormented in Purgatorie but your Masse is offered for those whom you thinke as yet not to be freed from that fire and to be in heauenly ioyes And what a kind of sacrifice it was Augustine sheweth in the same place saying Thy hand mayden kuit her soule by the bond of faith to the Sacrament of that price of our redemption He calleth then the Eucharist a sacrifice which taketh away the hand-writing against vs because it is the Sacrament of that sacrifice sacrifice of the Masse should be offred for her for the forgiuenes and expiation of her sinnes neither did Augustine either pray or offer for his mother in this manner The desire of Monica was only this that at the celebration of the Eucharist there might alwaies be a remembrance of her insomuch as she assured herselfe she was one of the heauenly societie and communitie of saints Augustine indeed prayed for his mother I denie not but this his fact proceeded more of affection to his mother then for any necessitie And the custome of prayer for the dead which preuailed in many places was not deriued from the authoritie of the scriptures but only from an excessiue kind of loue and reuerence of them that liued towards their friends that were dead But that Augustine neuer beleeued his mother to be in Purgatory that his prayers might releeue her there it is manifest for thus he saith Forgeue her Lord forgiue her I beseech thee August confess lib. 9. cap. 13. enter not into iudgement with her ô Lord yea ô Lord I beleeue thou hast already graunted that which I desire but accept ô Lord the freewill offrings of my mouth But if we should graunt that both Augustine and his mother went a little awry you cannot heere inferre that either of them are yours for so much as we are not to giue censure of the Fathers in greatest causes by one particular iudgement but by their continuall and constant opinion You annex hereunto Paula and Paulus Hilarian and Authony I could recken sixe hundred Monks like vnto these whereof not one was a Papist none of them yours All these were Christians louing solitarines that they might more quietly intend the meditation of heauenly things Compare not your Monks with these which are of an other sort and sect of Monks These were holy painefull faithfull full of good works yours are impure idle idolatrous deuourers hogges oxen asles how are those like But how shall it appeare vnto vs that Satyrus the brother of Ambrose was yours Being in danger he leaped into the sea and swimming escaped by the strength of his faith A goodly reason he was a good smimmer ergo n DVR But which of you did any such thing armed thing armed with the Caluinist Supper WHIT. pag. 872. And which of you armed with the Host durst cast himselfe into the sea vnlesse he had learned first to swimme And at that time Satyrus was not only saued but also others who had not the Host yours other pretence you make none Why Nicholas and Martinus should be yours you shew no cause for wearing haire-cloth fasting and watching are no marks of your Bishops Benedict say you was the founder and father of the Monkish profession therefore without doubt he must be yours I could be content to leaue him as too superstitious yet can you not prooue that he was yours or fauoured your religion in all or the most things Heere you say you passe ouer thousands Francis I thinke you meane and Dominicke and those huge swarmes of white Friers and blacke Friers I freely bequeath them vnto you and willingly suffer you to enioy them and all such as were like them They were not of that worth that we should need greatly to striue about them You passe ouer the Doctors in silence which you formerly remembred wherein I commend your wisedome seeing to them you can make no claime without doing them too apparant wrong You demaund of all those before recited whether they were Catholicks or Lutheranes to which I will answere when you haue shewed how Lutheranisme dissenteth froÌ„ true Catholick religion Luther taught no new doctrine he restored and mainteined the auncient Catholicke faith What though he was vnknowne vnto those auncient Fathers as being himselfe of later yeares yet the doctrine he brought was Euangelicall and Apostolick which you had welnigh extinguished which he restored to his former beautie and perfection Answere me Campian this one thing of all those you haue named what one was a o DVR But all these did euer consent in faith and differed only in such things which might be disputed vvithout any hazard of faith WHIT. pag. 873. Be it granted they did agree in matter of faith vvhy then do they not follow all one rule But S. Paul reproued the Corinthians agreeing in faith because they attributed to their Ministers more then was meete vvhilest one had deuoted himselfe to S. Paul another to S. Peter another to Apollo What then shall be done to the Scotistes Thomâ—stes others are the names of Scotus Thomas Francis more holy and lawfull names in their disciples then the
names of S. Peter S. Paul and of Apollo Besides the difference is very great not in the name but in things also As thus Let the question be whether the Crosse and Image of Christ bee to bee worshipped with the same kind of worship that Christ is adored withall Doth not this appertaine to faith But error in this will be plaine Idolatrie And yet you know some of the Schoolemen stand for it some against iâ— what of that question which hath exercised al Churches and Schooles so long Whether the Virgin Marie had originall sinne or was euer pure and without spot And infinite such differences I omit being matter of faith Thomist Scotist Dominican Franciscan or Iesuite when you haue answered me touching those I will answere as touching Luther You call the Throne of God to witnes that if there be any heauen at all it is proper to you In any case auouch this boldly and confidently though he that looks into your lines may wel thinke there is no heauen at all For neither will you enter into heauen your selues nor suffer those that would and the liues of those of your side are such as are far fitter for hell then for heauen I know not Campian what heauen you dreame of if you meane the eternall habitation of God and his Saincts I take God to witnes the maker of this palace and all the heauenly citizens that there no place can be for you Papists false Catholicks Iesuites As you haue deuised a new faith whereby you must enter thither so must you seeke a new heauen in this you may not be God graunt you may returne at length into the right way that leadeth into heauen Now being fallen from heauen The damned you looke into hell I wish Campian you could seriously view those infernall regions and places of the damned for though I do willingly thinke nothing but well of the dead yet I feare you should find too too many of theÌ„ that haue flourished in your Church in those places Certainely to say nothing of the rest your later Popes as those which were called by the names of Boniface Innocent Siluester Gregory Calixt Vrbane Alexander Adrian Pius Leo Paul almost all the rest were such as hardly can any man thinke they could enter into heauen And further I call Christ the only teacher of heauenly doctrine to record that such is your faith and religion that who so maintaines it fullie and wholie cannot raigne with Christ nor be partaker of that heauenly life and therefore not Iewes only Pagans Turks and notorious Heretikes are tormented in that fire that neuer goes out but Papists also of all Heretikes the most vile and odious Infinite are the soules of Christian men which haue been throwne headlong into this most wofull destruction these many hundred yeares by that Antichrist of yours who alone hath more inlarged that infernall kingdome then all Iewes Nerves Mahomets Arians Nestorians Macedonians Eutychians and the rest To you Campian I wish that saluation which coÌ„sisteth in the true knowledge of God and whom he hath sent Iesus Christ and desire from my hart that now at length you will renounce that Romane Antichrist with whom you haue conuersed and returne vnto Christ the onely giuer of eternall life from whom too long you haue banished your selfe But let vs consider what these damned ones will further your cause Jewes The Iewes you begin with and heere you reckon Hierusalem holy places our Sauiours Sepulcher the Manger Crosse and other 〈◊〉 from all which you cannot draw one argument for your purpose I denie not but great concourse of people thronged vnto the Citie partly to heare and see the Apostles whiles they liued and also to behold those places where Christ the Sonne of God had conuersed and at Ierusalem were many things which might moue and perswade men to goe thither that were any thing curiously inclined And although the Church then was too much addicted to these obseruations and as a Spouse exceedingly delighted with any remembraÌ„ce of her deceassed husband yet was she then farre from those superstitious p DVR VVee doe but imitate our fore fathers who did such things not of curiosity but religiously Hier. Epist ad Macel Pailon August Epist ad Clerum Pop. Hipp. WHIT. pag. 878. But Christ saith Joh. 4.21.23 If then I may worship God with great fruiâ—e in mine owne countrie I see not why I should go to Hierusalem or any other place on Pilgrimage And if I haue the authoritie of the Scriptures obiect not vnto mee Hierom or Augustine or any other whoÌ„ I cannot allow to speake without Scripture against Scripture And as for Fathers know you not that Gregorie Nyssen hath with pregnant reason confuted all superstitious peregrinations wâ—it not Bernard Monkes must search for the heauenly not earthly Hierusalem vvhich they must goe vnto not by their feete but by affections pilgrimages and dotings on Images which with you Papists is now vsuall Neither was this often recourse of Christians into those places the cause of the Iewes hatred vnto theÌ„ as you vntruly surmise but the Gospell was the true cause of difference betwixt them and vs. Rom. 11.28 They vrge Moses wee teach that Moses must giue place to Christ q DVR They hate vs not so much for our faith and profession as because wee haue spoiled them of their kingdome and Priest-hood and haue cast them out of their countrie WHIT. pag. 877. But what Christian euer spoiled the Iewes of their kingdome or thus expelled them Did Caligula Titus or Adrian destroy the Iewes for the religion of Christ And if they hated you because you haue bereft them of their Priest-hood why not vs for the Gospell which teacheth that the Priesthood is translated from the posterity of Aaron vnto Christ from hence only proceeds their hatred vnto vs but you are odious vnto theÌ„ in many respects r DVR Many Jevves haue become Catholikes but not Caluinists as Jeuer heard of WHIT. pag. 878. We desire they might be made Christians not Caluinists as our Churches hath many of them I will 〈◊〉 you one of whom it were strange you should not haue heard Emanuell Treâ—â—lius a Iew borne being brought to the religion of Christ whom Caluin loued dearely and his Catechisme he translated into the Hebrew tongue your manifold idolatries continually hindering them from receiuing the Gospell of Christ Remoue your idols that we all that are called Christians may worship God in spirit and truth The Iewes then will ioyne themselues vnto vs and will speedily in great multitudes betake themselues to the sheepfold of Christ The Iewes complaine they haue been destroyed by your Auncestors whom meane you the Romanes who raced the Citie vnder the conduct of Titus These were enemies of the faith of Christ will you be their posteritie or what other Auncestors haue you that haue been author of so great calamitie vnto the Iewes They haue I graunt