taketh vpon him to preach is a preacher nay according to the first Demonstration and others of this chapter and his interpretation of it none be The hauing a Reader debarreth not from seeking to a Preacher and therefore it is better to haue readers then none at all As for parrat Preachers it is better to haue a discreete Reader then one of them who are bolde and hambolde to speake but speake not to the purpose or else speake schismatically and therefore are turned out The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is impossible to haue preachers euery where Demonstration ergo readers Answere of the Demonstrator This is a disgrace to say it is impossible and yet to say all is well and to violate the Lordes decree He that is challenged so to say by you Remonstrance with reply saith it is not possible as the state is nowe to haue such supplie in euery free chappell or place of seruice of a preacher there is some difficultie in compassing of this But to depraue other mens word is your speciall grace as for breaking Gods decree you must better proue it then you haue or else neuer say that the parte of a ministers dutie to reade in the Church to be thus vnlawfull In the feare of God be it spoken we will thanke God for our freedome both to reade Gods word and preach and pray for her Maiesties gratious continuance for so much quantitie of dominion no such plenteous preaching is in all the world as in her Maiesties dominion God increase the number of learned and well aduised preachers The 4. Obiection of the Demonstrator It were vncharitablenes to turne bare Readers out Demonstration for they their wiues and children should begge Answere of the Demonstrator Better 3. or 4. begge then damnation of 1000. Yea it were iniustice and impietie to turne them away Remonstrance with replie because they cannot preach for they can exhort and teache and minister the sacraments no such feare of damnation of a 1000. But it is your preiudice and condemnation to auouch that by their ministerie God cannot saue soules I doubt not but much better by sundrie mens labours being but simple in learning then by the most of that crue their vaine verball babling which with griefe of heart I knowe the most of your humour to vse in sermons for set aside a fewe resonant ill applied wordes culled together to astonish the simple a litle for that time what order what learning or any thing else tending to the building of the inward man in spirituall knowledge is to be founde in most of their speakings or exercises So that I see no difference betwixt such vnlearned talkers and the ignorant ministers whome with great disdaine they terme neuer better then Dumbe dogges but that these because they cannot preach will not and therefore are lesse impudent the other in truth cannot barke but yet will be bolde to be balling though it be but against the Moone or with running riot How much different is S. Hieroms iudgement from yours he saith thus It is a fault in some Bishops Hierom. 〈…〉 19. 〈…〉 that chuse not into the Clergie those who be the best but who talke the best non meliores sed argutiores and thinke simple and harmelesse men to be vnliable for the ministerie The 2. Assertion of the Demonstrator That the Church ought not to be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Demonstration and Chancellors The 1. Demonstration They who are no elders ought not to haue any thing to doe in the gouernment of the Church 1. Tim. 5.17 Those Chancellors Commissaries Officials are no elders whether you take elder for a minister or assistant ergo To the Maior The Maior proposition is intricated both with schisme vntruth Remonstrance and treason For the Queenes Maiestie is no elder no minister no priest and yet hath and ought to haue the gouernment of the Church whereas such elders as you meane haue nothing at all to doe in the Church either by precept or president The conuersion is false which the Demonstrator would haue gathered Elders gouerne well ergo they that are no Elders doe not gouerne others may gouerne in the actions of the Church who are no pastorall elders which is the answere to your Minor For Chancellors Commissaries Officials they are assistant to the pastorall elders or doe gouerne in foro litigioso and yet many of them also pastorall elders and ministers It is a loude lie to say none of them are ministers Well the griefe is that euery minister may not gouerne and rule without checke of all superiors not onely bishops or their substitutes but any other This is a wise Demonstration which is a paralogisme consisting all of negatiues and is like to this viz. No bishoply authoritie is lawfull none eldership is a bishoply authoritie ergo none eldership is lawfull The 2. Demonstration They who must gouerne the Church Demonstra must haue a warrant for so doing from Christ But the Chancellors c. haue no warrant from Christ ergo The Maior is false if you meane immediately from Christ Remonstr or especially and positiuely warranted otherwise then as all superiour power is of God It is sufficient to be warranted from the Christian Magistrate those who occupie the place of the Apostles else a Maior Sherife and Constable Iustice of peace and maister of an Hospitall should haue an vnlawfull authoritie For a man may no more deale without lawfull warrant in the Common-wealth then he may doe in the externall gouernment of the Church To the Minor Their warrant is out of the worde of God He that gouerneth in diligence Rom. 12. The bishops and others make them partakers of their authoritie by way of delegation and substitution which in Church and Common-wealth is both lawfull for not onely by the equitie but by examples of Scriptures and practise of the Primitiue Church substitution may be approoued lawfull The 3. Demonstration They whose names Demonstration offices and practise be deriued from Antichrist may not gouerne the Church of Christ for who will suffer his wife to be gouerned by the maister of a Brothell house but so are the names c. of our Chancellors because they are grounded in the filthie dunghill of the Canon lawe ergo To the Maior The Maior is of infinite distance from the Minor Remonstrance I answere to the Minor The name of Chancellor is not founde in all the Canon Lawe in that sence it is vsed but in the Ciuill Lawe of the Romanes is vsed for any chiefe assistant sitting intra eosdem tribunalis cancellos cum Magistratu as I haue learned of those who be skilfull and is not repugnant vnto but may be said to be deriued out of Gods lawe if the deriuation be drawne à cancellis to keepe vnbrideled or inordinate men intra cancellos within their boundes So the name of Commissaries by reason of commission or matter of
Demonstration If no particular Congregation haue priuiledge greater giuen then other Demonstrat then must eyther no Eldershippe be at all or else in eurie Congregation But euerie Congregation hath like priuiledge because it is a perfect bodie Ergo To the Assumption No Congregation hath anie priuiledge for Eldership Remonstrance and yet is a bodie perfect of it selfe To adde anie thing to the perfection of Arte is curiositie to the perfection of nature monstruousnes as for the Charter of the priuiledge of your Eldership you haue not shewed it Let our Syllogisme be this If euery Congregation haue like priuiledge then euery one or none must haue Doctors But euery one neede not but where it may be as you say Ergo none must haue a Doctor or else your owne collection is foolish The 4. Demonstration The same warrant that is for an Eldershippe in one place is the warrant to haue it in all Demonstrat for GOD tyeth it not to Churches in cities but to the Churche But there is a warrant to haue in some Ergo in all To the Maior You say the verie trueth Remonstrance for your Consistoriall Eldership is warranted in no place as for pastorall Eldershippe it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expounde it howe you will for towneship or citie although Paul and Barnabas ordeyned them Actes 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through Iconium Lystra c. for the commoditie of the Church To the Minor The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your fansied Eldership appeareth in no place If any man be contentious for it as for a diuine institution the Churches of God haue receiued no such custome for 1550. yeres together The Assertion That the Eldership is perpetuall Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If the causes why Christ would haue an Eldership be perpetual then is the thing it selfe perpetuall but the causes vz. to gouerne the Church by the rules of the worde Ecclesiastically are perpetuall Ergo. The Antecedent is true if all the causes be perpetuall Remonstrance but here is mention onely of the finall cause But a man may atteyne well to the ende of gouernment Ecclesiasticall and peace of conscience without the complot of this Eldership Ergo all this is but a strong imagination Why man cannot the Church be gouerned by the rules of the worde vnder no kind of persons gouernment but of such an Eldership The 2. Demonstration If Christ bee the authour and left it by his Apostles to be established Demonstration then it is perpetuall But Christ is the Authout in that hee gaue giftes for the particular members and the whole bodie thereof So it appeareth 1. Cor. 12.12 And the Apostles not going beyonde their commission established it Ergo it is perpetuall To the Maior It is not necessarily true Remonstrance for Christ by his spirite was the Authour of that which the Apostles established for absteining from blood and strangled yet was not this perpetuall To the Minor The very place which you meane but quote wrong vz. 1. Cor. 12.12 and afore neither prooueth anie giftes giuen to the particular members of any such eldership nor to the whole bodie of it the place is as the body is one and hath many members al the members of that one body being many is but one body so Christ What doeth this proue any giftes giuen either to the particular members or whole bodie of your Eldership The giftes that a litle afore are reckoned to be seuerally giuen to seueral persons are The worde of wisedome the worde of knowledge faith giftes of healing the working of great or miraculous workes prophesie discerning of spirites diuersitie of tongues and interpretation of tongues If enery of these be a seuerall gift for a seueral officer in your Elderships then in steede of three vz. Doctors Pastors and Elders for I think you now haue learned of the French discipline to exclude Deacons you haue nine officers in al. To runne ouer therfore but those officers you are hitherto agreed on which of these seuerall giftes shall the pastour haue which the Doctour and which the Elders He that hath the worde of wisedome shall he not haue the worde of knowledge nor faith and he that hath faith the last of these three shall he be knowne by it as by a specificall difference from the rest and haue neither of the other and hee that hath knowledge shall he neither haue wisedome nor faith Here you had neede to haue Ariadnes threede to winde your selues out of this Labyrinth and how will ye accommodate the other sixe giftes and to whom the most whereof if not all are long agone ceassed I knowe you cannot shew an ocular demonstration of these sixe giftes remaining and atchieued not by industry but without all ordinary meanes as it was then in any Eldership or Synode in the world nor euer shal be able if you liue out Methuselah his yeeres You see then the grosse absurdities that followe your appropriating and tying of seuerall giftes to your seuerall and peculiar officers yet is it almost the onely reason in substance which with a little diuersitie of dressing you serue out in twentie seuerall dishes And you may with confusion of faces acknowledge your licentious boldenesse in abusing the Scriptures both here and elsewhere to make shewe of seruing your turnes Which ariseth hereof that you bring not your senses to the scripture but draw the Scripture that is not of priuate interpretation vnto your owne fantasticall senses and vnderstandings The 3. Demonstration Whatsoeuer is commanded and neuer repealed the Church must receiue that as perpetuall But such is the gouernment of the Church by the Eldership Demonstration in that S. Paul mentioneth them and are to be esteemed as commandements of the Lord. 1. Cor. 14.37 Ergo To the Maior One instance vndoeth this to absteine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from strangled Remonstrance was a commandement neuer repealed yet not binding vs nor perpetuall To the Minor That is not the meaning of S. Paul Whosoeuer is a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the Lords commandements what for a presbytery or eldership where is any such commandement in S. Paul if it be we embrace it as the Lords The wordes alleadged are spoken of those Prophesyings in course by any Christian to whom it was reueiled which was an vse of the primitiue Church yet not retained now in any the reformed Churches and is condemned euen by our Consistorials in the Barrowists a broode of their owne hatching At Geneua Caluin once erected such prophesyings at which a learned Phisition woulde often speake against the course of the doctrine of Predestination in that sort as Caluin taught it whereupon Caluin caused that Exercise to be strangled in his swadling clothes so that a more pregnant place could not be brought to proue some commaundements of Christ vnto the first Church to be such as cannot be
faultes if the persons did not like you I knowe your disposition where I dwell The 4. Demonstration That which is contrary to naturall affection and worketh the trembling of the very heart Demonstration may not be done but in extremitie So is excommunication Ergo. Why are not you afraid in your owne cause sith many of your crue stand excommunicate Remonstrance and yet like prophane Esau or Lucian the dogge make a ieste of it if you esteeme it not because Bishops doe inflict it we will and may vpon better ground contemne yours that lay elders determine whensoeuer you set vp shoppe The 2. Assertion of the Demonstration Excommunication must be done by the Elders Demonstration not by one man The 1. Demonstration That which Christ commaunded to bee done by the Church may not be done by one man but Christ commaunded so 18. Mat. 15. Ergo. What force is in your Maior Remonstrance The Church must pray for princes Ergo no one man may Christ commaunded at one time the Apostles to preach Ergo all must preach together and no one of them To the Minor This is most absurde for then hee commaunded to be done and ouerdone that is both done and vndone viz. both by the Presbyterie and then by the whole Congregation for so you teache If in those wordes Tell the Church the Church is the Eldership then the rest of the Congregation hath not any warrant to giue consent or to deale in it which else-where you require For when the Church that Christ committed it vnto haue once determined the matter what haue those to doe further that were not meant nor thought of by him And if hee that tels the Eldershippe any thing telles it to the Church what neede any moe bee acquainted with that belonges not to them For if they be of the Church they knowe it already Et qui certus est amplius non debet certiorari if they be not then let them pacifie themselues but if the whole Congregation be theremeant then hath not the Eldershippe therein authoritie giuen by that place And if the Church be the Eldershippe then the one is the other idem numero conuertuntur so that he that is not of the Eldership is none of the Church To auoide these absurdities they will say the Eldershippe is called the Church because it hath herein the authoritie of the Church This is strange Shall they bee the Church it selfe that haue herein the Churches authoritie then he is a king that in some thing hath the kings authoritie Well let it goe Those that with vs doe excommunicate haue the Churches authoritie also and let them shewe a reason out of the worde of God why the Church may not giue her authoritie to one aswell as to many If this bee one of your essentiall pointes that the Church cannot giue it to one for shame finde some Scripture for it If you say that the Church being a collectiue must needes bee more then one true but yet one or a fewe may haue the authoritie of many committed to them as one man may bee Syndic or Legate for a whole common weale If it cannot bee represented but by a number then two may serue else shewe by howe many and both of these by Scripture or confesse your gouernement not to be grounded on Scripture And when such authoritie is giuen to many shew that any thing may bee done except euery of them agree for if you say as you practise that the most voyces ouercome the fewer shewe Scripture for that and howe the odde voyce that makes the greater number hath such a power as to make that to bee the determination of the Church which otherwise were not so And if in such case one odde voice perhaps of a very odde fellowe may haue such force why may not a Byshops voyce bee of as great force in this matter where the Church committes it to him That by this place the power generall of excommunication is not established may thus appeare For if this be the very warrant and cōmission that it hath then may none excōmunication proceede in any other matter then vpon priuate offences originally and onely by the same degrees that there bee propounded otherwise the commission were violated That an Eldershippe as is fancied shoulde haue that power here giuen to them cannot be entended for if Christ had ordeyned them afore this time then their authorities whatsoeuer were no doubt giuen withall vnto them but wee reade no such thing The pollicie of the Iewish Synagogue had still his continuance and Christ had not yet setled the Church which hee was in gathering That by these wordes at this time it was erected it coulde not be for neither were the officers afore ordeyned of which it consisteth viz. of Elderly doctor and Pastor vndoctorly and vnpastorally Elder and of deacons nor yet were they here ordeyned For the Apostles could neuer out of this single worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church haue picked this great varietie and distinction of officers and their authoritie which they had neuer heard of afore But Christ speaketh hereof to them as of a thing knowen whereunto in like case resort might bee had But if it were here appointed consisting of Christ and his Apostles then was Christes headshippe of the Church taken from him and hee ranged with his Apostles as his collegues in the Eldershippe Then also must they either say that Christ was not perpetuall president in such eldership but as it fell to his lotte or choise as they now practise in Synodes and conference albeit the Pastor in their Elderships be the President perpetuall or they must haue a perpetuall president in all their Synodicall assemblies to be conformable to this being the best and first It will also hereof followe if your Elders mind to be successors of the Apostles in an eldership here they must be ministers of the worde and Sacraments as the Apostles and all the first Elders were Then also cannot your Eldership haue any other parts of authoritie then Christ at this their institution here bestowed vpon them as namely you must abandon ordinations depositions and other gouernment Lastly if he ment to erect an office or authoritie that afore was not the wordes would haue bene praeceptiue and dispositiue for such purpose not imperatiue commaunding onely a course to be holden before such a tribunall as was not afore erected or heard of for it woulde thus or in some like forme haue beene conceiued let such and such Church gouernours bee erected to whome you may alwayes tell it If therefore to auoyde these inconueniences it wil be said that he made allusion to the Iewish Sanhedrim or College of 72. in vse with them and wel knowen to them with insinuation that as the Iewes had so hee would haue established in his Church which should after be gathered of the Iewes and Gentiles Besides that it is likely the name of Sanhedrim would haue
bad harper harpeth alwayes on one string My answere is as vnto the 7. 8. Demonstrations 1. Cap. Or I answere with concession because it is nothing to the question and therefore your fight is with no body but with the foolish feare of your owne shadowe Or I answere by distinction thus Direct warrantie is either immediate from the voyce of God or which is mediate by direct consequencie gathered out of the worde of God Such is any calling in the Church of England by what name soeuer it be named deducible from the worde of God The 3. Demonstration If Corah Dathan and Abyram were punished hauing no warrant of that they tooke in hand Demonstration then is euery calling generally warranted out of the worde and particularly layde vpon the parties But the first is true Ergo the second Nomb. 16. This is well concluded Your consequence of the Maior no way followeth Remonstrance except the want of warrantize had bene the only cause of their punishment You confesse a trueth before you are aware in the Minor your owne feters shall serue for your owne feete If Corah Dathan and Abyram were swallowed vp aliue for insurrection against Moses and Aaron the high Priest Retortion for ambitious seeking to be all high Priestes not contented with the ministerie of the Tabernacle as inferiour Leuites and for scismatical assertion Is not the whole Congregation holy Hij omnes sunt sancti are not all these holy that is sanctified to the Lord Num. 16.3 both intruding into the office and obtruding to the people the office of the high Priest at that time Must not the scismatikes of our time whose contradiction is the same perish also in the same contradiction Pares culpa pares paena like fault like punishment without the mercie of God But the Antecedent is true Ergo the consequent is together true For these doe the very same against those who are set ouer them in the Lorde Plus satis arrogatis vobis Inter eos est Iehoua quare ergo effertis vos super Congregationem Iehouae You take too much vpon you amongst them is the Lord Is not all the Congregation holy Why doe you aduance your selues aboue the Congregation of the Lorde Are not all holy all Ministers alike and ministeries Is not the laytie a holy presbyterie to the Lord Are not the Congregation interessed in the gouernment of the Church Nemo de vobis vnus excellat Omnem exuperantiam virtutis oderunt Tusc quest lib. 5. Euery of vs is as good as other These be as the voyces of old scismatikes were The 4. Demonstration That which giueth cōfort in trouble must haue a warrāt out of Gods word Demonstration But euery lawfull calling doeth so Ergo. The Argument lyeth at Cowards warde Remonstrance We denie not but that all lawful callings haue warrant of Gods worde but not particularly or totidem verbis For where findeth he a Master of an Hospitall a Printer a Cartwright a Salte-peter man a shirte-maker a gunne-maker an Attorney in all Scripture Ante diem clauso componet vesper Olimpo From morning vnto night Stans pede in vno you may demonstrate thus The 5. Demonstration That which helpeth forwarde in godlinesse Demonstration must haue a warrant out of Gods worde But euery lawfull calling helpeth forward in godlines Ergo. These and such other like Arguments Remonstrance are like to the Islands in Archipelago 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lying in the middle way to be surprised of any man or as the prouince of Iewry and Syria where of Tullie saith Iudaei et Syri ad seruitutem nati De prouin consul bound to serue all turnes and pay tribute vnto all who will make them tributarie Wastewordes of the Demonstrator They confesse all this to bee true Demonstration but denie the Archbyshop and LL. B B. c. to be distinct Ministers which we holde to be distinguished and by sixe Demonstrations doe prooue it first thus The 1. Demonstration Those things which haue diuerse efficient causes Demonstration are diuerse Our L L. B B. and the Ministers of the worde haue diuerse efficient causes the one the ordinance of God the other of humane policie Ergo. Wee holde their ministerie of the worde to be as others Remonstrance and there in equall but for order and policie of the Church a Superioritie in gouernement censures and ordinations in which respect they are B B. So much Beza and Caluin also confesse in effect speaking of Patriarkes Archbyshops and Byshops in the Primatiue Church To the Maior This must be true in naturall or in artificiall and ciuill things or true in neither For some things haue diuerse efficients and are the same things other are diuerse thinges and haue the same efficient Ergo. It is true in neither The braine of an Anabaptist and the braine of an asse haue one efficient and yet are diuerse things Sol et homo generant hominem Sol et asinus generant asinum vnlesse you make an Anabaptist the foale of an asse The soule of Nouatus and the soule of T.C. haue but one creator and yet are indiuiduated and diuers things vnlesse you holde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 transmigration into T.C. of Nouatus soule Againe if wee might beleeue your selues Moses made the Sanedrim of olde or authorised it Christ in your eldership made or authorised the Sanedrim of the new according to your selues These are diuerse efficients yet but one thing The egge of this byrds laying and of another byrds hatching hath diuers efficients but yet is one chicke Diuersities of efficient church wrights and reformers of the state belike must needes breede diuersitie of reformation of the state and diuerse communion bookes as fell out within two yeeres experience thrise diuersely your Presbyteries your Classies and your Synodes seuerally may make or ordeine ministers and these be diuerse assemblies ergo their ministeries be diuers that so diuersly be ordeined and called of them The Minor cannot passe it is passing naught viz. our BB. and the ministers haue diuerse efficients as themselues doe confesse Who euer of vs did confesse the BB. to be a mere humane constitution Therefore let this lie As for the worde and title of Lorde in which limitation they thinke a great aduantage lurketh it is but per accidens as they haue Baronries If it were otherwise why not titles of honour due to them if honour bee due The efficient of BB. in respect they are ministers is God as BB. properlie is also God Omnis potestas a Deo For admit all their authoritie or names were not specifically expressed shall not their power therefore be of God els where be the foure Syndicts of Geneuaes authoritie For there is no such office named particularly in scripture See the 304. page of the defence of the answere to the admonition whose plaine distinction is That great is the oddes to be ordeyned of
Absurditie of the Demonstrator or all finite or infinite number must be chusers and opposers now They who can do no more but render an account or reason of their owne faith if they can do that must heare the audite and reckoning of others faith and trie their skill in high points of diuinitie and so the shepeheard not lead the sheepe but the sheepe the shepeheard for he must teach them the next day that examined him the day afore The 6. Demonstration They whose testimonie the people may best credite Demonstration must examine But the Elderships iudgement the people may best credite being a company of able and sufficient men Ergo All goeth to popular democracie Remonstrance To the Minor This is idem peridem The Eldership is nothing else but a few vnlearned people for the most part can no more iudge of gifts other then volubilitie of speach then a blind man of colours The 7. Demonstration They who can best perswade the people of his sufficiencie must examine Demonstration But the Eldership can best perswade Ergo To the Maior The Maior is false Remonstrance For a craftie Orator may seduce the people and best perswade in a bad matter To the Minor The bishop of the dioecesse and others vnder them can best iudge of the qualitie of learning themselues being learned As for the sillie Eldership they are vncunning to perswade and more vncunning to examine Lord what a confusion barbaritie and indignitie were this to haue vnlearned men examine ministers Can they tell who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that neither know tongues arte liberall or methode nor can tell a Paralogisme when they heare it The sixt Chapter Assertion 1 ALl must be preachers receiued into the ministerie 2 The Church may not be gouerned by Commissaries Officials Chancellors The 1. Demonstration He that may be receiued into the ministerie Demonstration must be able to teach the people all that Christ commanded Mat. 28.20 Onely he that is able to teach the trueth and conuince the aduersarie can teach the people all that Christ commaunded Ergo none must be receiued into the ministerie but such as be able to teach the trueth and conuince gainesaiers To the Maior That whosoeuer may be receiued into the ministerie Remonstrance must be able to teach all that Christ hath commaunded for so is it here propounded vniuersallie is not true for then no man since the Apostles might or can now bee receiued to the ministerie Things that Christ commaunded to the Apostles were of two sortes either things for knowledge or for conuersation what was to be embraced and what eschewed For matter of knowledge it was so eminent in the Apostles being ledde by Gods spirite vnto all trueth as that they could not erre in their doctrine deliuered to the Churches and that the 72. Euangelists or any since were not indued with like measure of it Augustine Hierome with all the olde fathers and learned bishops that haue written haue both erred and therefore were not able to teach all knowledge that Christ had commanded his Apostles to know and in sundrie points of Scripture confesse their ignorance Beza and Caluine whose examples I vse because you doe most account of them doe differ in sundrie interpretations By this rule then the one of them light on whether it will was not able to teach all that Christ commaunded and commended to his Apostles and consequently no minister because none omniscient minister They doubt of some places and some Beza himselfe professeth he vnderstandeth not as that in the Corinthians Propter angelos and I know other places which I perswade my selfe verilie he vnderstood not at least not aright and shall not he be allowed with you an able minister Then woe be to your selues of the faction that are of this opinion for you will I hope giue place to Beza for sufficiencie in learning But especially woe to them that neuerthelesse thinke you ministers and receiue as they thinke sacraments at your hands yet in trueth nothing if wee might beleeue your owne doctrines The errour hereof riseth because the Demonstrator folowing the steps of the deuill when hee tempted Christ alleageth this Scripture defectiuelie Math. 4. For it is not teaching them all that I haue commaunded you but teaching them to obserue all that I haue commaunded you What that all nations should obserue all that Christ commaunded the Apostles either to know or to put in practise no but teach them to obserue what Christ commaunded the Apostles to haue obserued for the Apostles were to vse many things as Apostles which are not requisite of euery Christian to bee obserued and kept And as the Apostles knew many hid mysteries and depthes of knowledge which is not necessarie for euery minister to the being of his ministerie in that hie measure to know and as it is not necessarie to the being of euery Christian to haue as manie and as excellent degrees of knowledge as any bishop or minister of the worde else were no difference betweene teacher and scholer so I doubt not but that the Apostles were not indued with knowledge and other gifts all alike and therefore that the like inequalitie may bee of ministers amongst themselues and amongst common Christians in comparison one of another without derogating hereby from them the essence and being either of an Apostle minister or good christian The diuersitie of giftes are in all sortes of men of great multiplicitie and varietie and euery one hath not all but as pleaseth God to dispense There is in Scriptures milke and strong meate rudiments and perfection for a lambe to wade and an Elephant to swimme and yet as S. Augustine saith In these things which are plainly set foorth in Scripture are all things that containe faith or conuersation and maners of men Act. 20. And though S. Paul kept backe nothing of the whole will of God ver 27. from the ministers of Ephesus yet doeth hee expound himselfe afore vers 20. 2. Cor. 12. v. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I kept backe nothing that was profitable but haue shewed you c. For all was not profitable for them as namely he in reuelation heard words not to be spoken which was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lawfull for man to vtter Euery minister cannot bee of perfectest knowledge and giftes as in the pricke of perfection for that which is superlatiue Arist in Topic. agreeth onely to one Are all Apostles are all prophets are all doctors 1. Cor. 12. v. 29 30. do all speake with tongues do all interprete c. Of necessitie therefore the ministers teaching of the people whether in matter of beliefe and knowledge or what to follow and eschew must be according to the proportion of his owne knowledge and gifts wherewith he is endued If notwithstanding all this ioined with the experience of ministers in all times and that which they might find
causes of doctrine or manners so farre as appertaineth to conscience to make lawes and orders Ecclesiasticall without her knowledge or consent to sitte and determine as your selues iudge best without any guiding of lawes to haue your sentences once giueÌ„ to stand in force though they be appealed from vntil they be in the last instaÌ„ce reuersed to excommunicate your Soueraigne consequently to discharge your selues for that time of all actuall obedience to call your Synodes and Classies without her writte and to haue the last appellation not to runne vnto the Prince but vnto a nationall Synode All which being true notes of soueraigntie in iurisdiction are at least 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lordly or Seigneuriall if not tyrannicall ergo that which is by you claimed and exercised is in deede by Christ there condemned Neither is it the bare ciuill title of Lorde which is giuen to bishops without any authoritie in that respect that will helpe you against vs here for the Scripture giueth not lawes to wordes but to the matters themselues Yours is Lordlines in deed when you both practise these things against her Maiesties royall supremacie and will haue her to throwe her scepter downe and to licke the dust of the feete of your Church viz. your Presbyterie an epitome or representation of euery seuerall Congregation or Church The 3. Demonstration They that may not be Lords ouer Gods people much lesse may be Lordes ouer the ministers Demonstration who are aboue the people but the first is true ergo the second To the Maior The Maior with a litle more helpe will make themselues Lordes Remonstrance For I doe assure you this no Bishop is Lord ouer the people but a Lorde in respect of his owne Baronrie It is more to be aboue the people in deede then to be a Lord vnto the people in phrase of speech or obsequious worde Nowe forsooth the Ministers are aboue the people that is their betters and in authoritie ouer them as this Maior doth import To the Minor Lordlines is one thing in malam partem Lordship is another S. Peter say you forbiddeth it 1. Pet. 5.3 on whome you say we father Lordlines to be Lordes of Gods heritage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nay Peter writeth to the bishops or gouerning pastorall Elders such as himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I a fellowe elder not to tyrannize ouer the flocke but to be example to the faithfull The place of Peter and your collection maketh against your selues Retortion To say ministers may haue dominion ouer the people but Ministers may not haue dominion ouer ministers that is Ministers may rule and not be ruled The drift of the place is Ministers may not tyrannize or haue absolute commaund ouer the people or ouer one another I referre me to the answere made to the second demonstration of this matter The 4. Allegation or Demonstration It is ordeined that euery mans fault must be heard Demonstra Cypr. lib. 1. epi. 3. Remonstrance where the accusers and witnesses are ergo euery Minister had authoritie ouer his flocke The Illatiue is ergo euery bishop hath his limited proper iurisdiction Cyprian complained thus Paucis desperatis minor videtur esse authoritas episcoporum in Africa Certaine desperat companions thought worse of the bishops authoritie in Afrike then else where He founde fault with those that went to Rome out of the prouince not for going out of the Parish with the cause as you insinuate The 5. Allegation Bishops in all the worlde are equall to Parish ministers Demonstrat Luth. aduer Papat à Satana fundat Remonstrance some are of better giftes which giftes cause no Lordship Luther confuteth the supremacie of the bishop of Rome Papam non esse caput christianitatis Dominum mundi And that all bishops whether of Eugub or Rome Rheg or Constantinople Alexand Tauis are equall for the ministerie and heires of the See Apostolike The 6. Allegation The Ministers in the Apostolike Church none aboue other Demonstrat Muscu â—e com de verbi minist were subiect to no Head nor President That is no vniuersall Head otherwise Musculus vpon the 20. Remonstrance of Matth. alloweth Gouernors Presidents Rulers in the church The 7. Allegation A Bishop taking the honour from the Ministers Demonstra Idem super 2. Thess 8.2 was the first steppe to Papacie That is translated from them to erect a newe Ministerie Remonstrance or an illimitable authoritie in the Church which a bishoprike vnder the Gospell is not neither of the 7. steppes to Papacie The 8. Allegation Christ did forbid the Apostles primacie and dominion Demonstraet Confess Holuet That is absolute worldly auaritious ambiti ous dominion Remonstrance not all moderate gouernment and authoritie whatsoeuer Remonstrance The 9. Allegation Equall power is giuen to all Ministers sauing for order Demonstrat Confe Hel. c. 18. Order includeth superioritie and excludeth not dignitie Remonstr Nullus dominium in episcopos vsurpauit The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator Christ 20. Demonstration Matth. 25. v. forbiddeth ambition and not dominion as Musculus doth expound Answere of the Demonstrator Caluine and others expounde it against superioritie but admitte that dominion is ambition because it causeth a man to aspire aboue his fellowe Ministers There is no witte in this misshapen answere Remonstrance with reply the obiection doth not permit so much vnto you dominion in the better part taken for rule is most contrarying to ambition It must be vniust dominion that causeth ambition as to conspire against his superior and to aspire to an higher place or seate your factious study may be called ambition The 2. Obiection of the Demonstrator The Greeke worde signifieth rule with oppression Demonstration which is forbidden Answere of the Demonstrator That is not so Luke 22.25 v. vseth the single verbe to rule the sonnes of Zebedee desired not to oppresse but to rule It is certaine Remonstrance with reply one place must expounde the other the tenor of the text expoundeth all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is one and consignificant termes which is absolutely tyrannously or ambitiously to gouerne and rule or violently to rule and ouerrule or else an absurd interpretation will follow of the word 19. Act. 16. v. 19. Act. 16. v. The man in whome the ill spirite was ranne vpon the vagabond Iewes and ouercame them and preuailed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had violent dominion and maisterie ouer them or 1. Pet. 5.3 v. not as exercising a proude dominion ouer the Lordes heritage If the worde signifie not so S. Peter should forewarne them of that which yourselues say is no fault therefore it is as cleare as noone day the children of Zebedee and the Apostles were schooled for that same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contentious and ambitious desire of ruling and that ciuilly and absolutely The 3. Obiection of the Demonstrator