the perpetuity of the Church be imagined to mean a continuance of this exterior Body in the same condition without undergoing any alteration or a constant equal succession of Priests People Sees and Councils This might be admitted if all this exterior body were the true Church of Jesus Christ if that were not mixt with worldlings and wicked men who change the Church as to outward appearances or if it's Ministry were sure to be always intrusted in the hands of good men But the case being otherwise these Promises must be confined to the true Believers and the Church conceived to subsist for ever in this mixture of wicked persons and consequently that it shall subsist sometimes among the publick corruptions of the Ministry to which Almighty God sets bounds as his wisdom sees fit for the preservation of his Children We must not any longer believe a supream visible and speaking authority in the Church to be necessary for putting an end to differences and disputes nor upon this pretence allow Ecclesiastical Assemblies to be infallible or forbid the faithful to examine their determinations This might pass if the Church were I reserved as Civil Societies are by rules of humane policy or if some temporal advantages were the only thing enquired after or if the matters so determined required only an outward compliance as those in Civil Societies do But now that the Church is under a protection infinitely more effectual than all the wisdom of Man now that Salvation is the thing in question and a submission of Conscience the thing required it must be confest that since Divine Revelation ceased there is no further need of any other supreme infallible Authority besides that of the Scripture which is the Churches Law its Oracle and perpetual Rule a Rule plain and clear in what it expresses in all things necessary to be believed plain and clear in its silence with relation to other things not necessary to be believed It must be owned that since God does not call men to Ministerial functions immediately and by himself it may happen that these Functions may generally be exercised by Reprobates and to suppose that such people as these who can challenge no share in God's Promises to his Church are infallible would be the most palpable absurdity in the World We must acknowledg that since it is so uncertain whether the men that make up these Assemblies are themselves really of Jesus Christ's Church it would be not only rash but wicked to receive their Decrees implicitly and submit to them without any Examination at all because this were really to put our Salvation upon the venture which ought to be infinitely dearer to us than any thing in the World and which if once lost can never be made amends for again Lastly we must not upon these pretended Principles take up Prejudices against the Protestant Churches nor tax them with Novelty because they are not united to this visible exterior Body which was before the Reformation or because they do not shew that uniform succession of Sees and Councils and the profession of the same Religion without any alteration at all and every thing as was practised before nor pretend they have subverted a Tribunal necessary for the subsistence of the true Church because they refuse to acknowledg the Church of Rome's Authority and to comply with her determinations These several charges upon us might be tolerably well laid if a man could assert that the Church consists of all this exterior body as it might be asserted if a Civil Society were the matter in question But being that body must be distinguished into two parts the one consisting of good the other of ill men the one of good Corn the other of Tares the Protestant Church cannot be called new if it only oppose this latter part which had gotten possession of all the outward advantages to wit the Ministry the Sees the Churches the Councils the Schools and in one word the Exterior Profession and which had changed and corrupted all these For is there any necessity that a Church should groan under the same oppression in order to being the same with a Church that was before Is there a necessity of lying under the Tares that choak'd and encompassed the Corn in order to being of the Corn And are not men the same Children of Jacob without being among the same strangers among whom that Family hath been The Protestants have not one jot the less really and truly a succession of Sees of Councils and the profession of Religion for not having that part of them which was earthly and unclean I acknowledg they have given quite another aspect and appearance to the House of God by this cleansing but still there is the same Ministry the same Sees the same Assemblies the same Profession not with respect to the corruptions that appeared in them but in regard of the Christian Order which still continued under all this filth and nastiness The vessels of the Temple are still the same only they are washed made clean and restored to their natural use And as for that pretended Tribunal of the Romish Church which the Reformation has subverted it never having any more foundation than what was imaginary and merely humane there is no reason to complain of the Protestants for not submitting to it because they would thereby have done wrong to that of the Scripture which is Jesus Christ's true Tribunal fixed and to continue for ever in the midst of his people But this shewing the many differences between the Church and Civil Societies is not the only method of confuting these Gentlemen's Principles Take which way you will their falsity and weakness is easily discovered and they are likewise attended with this inconvenience that as soon as one of them is overthrown all the rest fall with it Overthrow for instance but that one principle that the true Church must be an exterior visible Body even to the pointing out of the particular persons whereof it is composed and at the same time you overthrow all those definitions they give of it which include bad men as well as good and make reprobates to be no less members than the Elect you overthrow their application of God's Promises to this whole Body you overthrow its perpetuity in this Condition by virtue of those Promises you overthrow the necessity of this pretended external Succession upon which they lay such mighty stress you evacuate the supreme Authority and Infallibility of Church Assemblies and the blind obedience required to their determinations The case is the same with all their other principles particularly which must of necessity either all stand or all fall together I might truly say that you can no where observe a Systeme more effectually destroyed in the several parts of it than this is in the Book now published by me For there is not any one of the propositions that help to make that Systeme but I have confuted it substantially by Arguments that
Scripture and in what we must renounce these in deference to a higher Authority Whether Councils and their pretended Infallibility ought to silence all even the most just scruples against whatever they shall please to determine or whether Almighty God have not ordered the matter so that without some recourse had to our private Judgments even These cannot be received as a Rule of Faith to us but all imaginable care and an impartial examination of the thing always presupposed the decisive voice does of necessity belong at last to a mans own self M. de Meaux we see took a great deal of pains by a previous discourse upon this Topick to prepare his Proselyte for the ensuing Conference and he was no doubt in the right to pitch upon this as the main Argument for her Conversion It being indeed the very foundation and support of all the points in dispute between us the best and most cunningly contrived expedient to make men first embrace and then persevere in Error and Superstition For Protestants are usually apt to be squeamish and cannot digest Opinions contrary to Sense and Reason they sometimes grow so bold too as to question their Adversaries integrity Now what can be more satisfactory in such Circumstances than to be invited into the Communion of a Church which you are told in all even her most absurd Decrees is continually assisted with the unerring guidance of the Holy Ghost and put under a happy impossibility of deceiving her Members tho illnatured people should imagine her so wicked to desire and endeavour it This then being fixed as a first principle the understanding is sufficiently subdued for humane reasonings to interpose afterwards would be impertinent and sawcy and so the harshest and most unpalatable Doctrines go glibly down by the help of this excellent Vehicle the Churches Authority and Infallibility The same method is observable among the Missionaries here in England who after having tried us first with general schemes of the disputable points and then endeavoured to establish some of them particularly to little or no purpose do now at last take sanctuary in the Churches Despotick power and begin to seem sensible that either this or nothing must stand them in any stead The debate upon this Head first began to grow warm upon occasion of the Royal Papers which because bad money is not priviledged to pass unquestioned tho it have the King's stamp upon it were considered with a Judgment and Modesty becoming both a sincere zeal for Truth and a dutiful honour for the Person whose Royal Name they bore The several Answers Vindications and Replies upon this Subject have since been followed by M. de Condom's account of his Conference as suiting very well the business then in hand And when once the World had seen That it was so reasonable Mr. Claude should be heard what he could say for himself that I should not think this Translation needed any Apology or Introduction were it not for some Objections which I foresee it may be liable to These therefore I am concerned to remove that so the Book may be read without prejudice and not expose men to mistaken notions of things for want of a short but necessary Advertisement In the first place I desire the Reader to take notice that it is not to be expected Mr. Claude should in every circumstance express himself as the Church of England would do at this day The necessity of reforming from the Corruptions of Rome was easily discerned in several Countries and each National Church having sufficient power to reform it self was just and wise in asserting that rightful Authority upon so emergent an occasion But tho all did the thing yet all not conferring together they did it not by the same methods nor with like moderation and prudence It was enough that they all agreed in the main points and for the less material ones that they maintained such a Charity as not magisterially to censure or exclude one another for these little differences This was the very way whereby the Communion is still preserved inviolable among the Protestant Churches in all Nations and is a mighty argument that they retain the true spirit of Meekness and Christian Candor Therefore in the writings of Forreigners we must always make allowances for the Genius of that particular Church whereof they are Members and not be extremely nice and critical except where we find a disagreement in some very substantial point The Reformed Gallican Church and we are perfectly of one Judgment in all the most considerable parts of this dispute concerning the Authority of the Church As That she hath no right at all to require an absolute and implicit obedience to her determinations That the Scriptures are the only aud perfect Rule of Faith That every Man is concerned and obliged to examine by this Rule whatever is imposed upon him as an Article of Faith and if he finds the Doctrine conformable thereto readily and heartily to embrace and adhere to it but if evidently repugnant by all means to reject it That no Councils even the most General are to be received any further than they proceed in correspondence with this Diving Word That they may and actually have erred in deviating from it and consequently their Decrees ought to undergo some Examination before a Man complies with them But that notwithstanding this possibility of failing we ought to entertain very reverend and charitable presumptions in favour of such Assemblies and as not to cast them off without the clearest evidence of their having perverted the Truth so where no such evidence appears to submit with the most respectful humility imaginable looking upon them as excellent means for the preservation of the Christain Faith in its Vnity and genuine Purity After so punctual an agreement in matters of the greatest consequence what can it signify if in some few others of less consideration and more remote from the main business there seem a small disparity Mens Judgments must have some room left to exercise freely in and diversity of Opinions in Circumstantials like Divisions in Musick may very well be admitted without breaking the main Cords or doing the harmony any prejudice at all 'T is confest the Divines abroad have taken up some notions distinct from ours and particularly concerning the Church its Visibility Ministry Constitution and Discipline and it might well seene strange if Mr. Claude should so far forget his Education and Country as not to scatter some of these in his Writings But I hope Englishmen may enjoy the benefit of his Discourses without being obliged to subscribe every sentence or espouse every punctilio contained in them Whether the Gentlemen of the Romish perswasion relying upon the Authority of M. de Meaux his name called in so potent an Auxiliary from beyond the Seas out of a just diffidence of their own strength here They best can tell This I am sure of that it was but Justice to Mr. Claude and the Cause he
of the Church The Church is the Body of Jesus Christ according to that of the Apostle for His body the Church whence it is evident that such as are not accounted his Members cannot obtain Salvation Now the Members of Jesus Christ are united by Love both to one another and to him their Head A little further answering the Donatists Cavils against the Catholicks for having persecuted them for having burnt their Bibles for having sacrificed to Idols I return the same answer says he which I have often done already That what you say either is not true or if it be it concerns not Christ's good Corn but the Chaff The Church does not perish for this which shall be throughly purged from these men at the last exact judgment I enquire after the true Church That is where she is that hears the words of Jesus Christ and does them that builds upon a Rock that thus hearing and doing does yet bear with those that hear and do not and so build upon the Sand. I enquire where the Corn is which must grow among Tares till the Harvest Matt. 13. not what the Tares have done or do I enquire where Christ's Well-beloved is she who is among the wicked Daughters as the Lily among Thorns Cant. 2. not what the Thorns have done or now do I enquire where the good Fish are Matt. 13. which till they are drawn to shore must be content to lye in the same Net with bad ones not what the bad Fish have done or now do Afterwards again Seeing both good and bad administer and receive the Sacrament of Baptism and the good only are spiritually regenerated become his true Members and make up the building of Christ's Body 't is plain that Church consists of the good only to which it was said As the lily among thorns so is my beloved among the daughters Cant. 2. For it consists of those that build upon a Rock that is that hear the Word of God and do it For this Reason when St. Peter acknowledged Jesus to be the Christ the Son of God he said unto him Matt. 16. And upon this Rock will I build my Church This is not therefore those who build upon the Sand i. e. they that hear Christ's Words and do them not For the same Christ hath said Matt. 7. He that heareth my words and doth them I will liken him to a wise man that built his house upon a rock And a little before the end of the Book There are many who communicate with the Church in the Sacraments yet are not in the Church Else if when one is excommunicated visibly he be then only separated from the Church when he is restored to the Communion we must say that he is actually stated in the Church again But suppose his return be hypocritical That he bring a heart inveterate against the Truth and the Church must we own that such a one is perfectly reconciled and become a true member of Jesus Christ because the outward formalities of receiving him in have past upon him God forbid As therefore he is not really of the Church tho readmitted into the Communion so if before Excommunication he had a Soul at enmity with the Truth he was in truth separated even then And thus it is that the good and I bad seed grow together in the same common Field until Harvest that is the Children of the Kingdom and the Children of the wicked one If after all this M. de Condom shall still maintain that an outward profession and participation of the Sacraments are sufficient to make men members of the Church we may take the confidence to tell him that his Authority is not yet advanced so far with us as to be reckon'd of equal weight with St. Augustin's In his Book against Cresconiâ—s Good and bad men he says may baptize but God alone who is eternally good can purifie the conscience The wicked are condemned of Christ without the Churches knowledg as having an evil and a polluted conscience and are not even now in Christ's body the Church For Christ cannot have such for his members as are condemned and therefore they Baptize even while they are out of the Church themselves God forbid such monsters should be reckoned among the members of the only Dove God forbid such should enter into the inclosed garden whose keeper can never be imposed upon In like manner does this holy Father speak in his Book of the Christian Doctrine Tichonius the Donatist haveing busied himself in laying down some Rules for the understanding of Scripture St. Augustine takes them into examination and this is what he says to the second of them His second Rule concerns the twofold Body of Christ that is an improper term for in reality none are his body who shall not continue with him for ever He should rather have exprest it concerning our Lords true or mixt body or true and counterfeit or some such like term For though hypocrites seem to be of the Church they are so far from being with him to all eternity that they are really not with him now He might then be allowed to lay down this Rule but he should have phrased it concerning the mixt Church And afterwards Tichonius his seventh and last Rule is concerning the Devil and his body For the Devil is the head of the wicked and they in some sort his members appointed to undergo with him the punishment of everlasting fire as Christ is the head of the Church which is his body and appointed to eternal glory with him As therefore in the first Rule entituled Of the Lord and his body when the Scripture speaks of one and the same person we must distinguish carefully what belongs to the Head and what to the Body so as to this last Rule we shall find things spoken of the Devil which do not so much belong to Him and his Body Now that Body of his is composed not only of such as are visibly without but those also who though in truth they belong to him yet continue for a time mixed with the Church I make no doubt but so many passages of St. Augustine together with those other proofs I instanced in before for the resolving this question may make M. de Condom a little uneasie though he think never so well of his own principle But in short it concerns not only this Bishop but all others that take this dispute into consideration to know once for all what mighty difficulties they must overcome before they can establish the pretended Authority of their Church That is to say in one word it is fit they know that in order to compass this design they must triumph over Scripture triumph over Reason triumph over the Fathers but above all they must declare open war with St. Austin particularly The Throne of Rome's Hierarchy is never capable of being set up but upon these foundations or to speak more properly upon
Churchmen the Pulpits more zealous for Tales and Legends than the Word of God The Schools busying themselves with ridiculous Questions and Curiosities the Sacraments burdened with strange Ceremonies the instruction and edification of mens Souls wretchedly neglected and in a word the Gospel liberty changed into a temporal slavery This is what we mean by the state of the Church being interrupted this the ruine and desolation we bewail The Church hath not ceased to exist nor did she perfectly lose her visibility or her Ministry God forbid But both she and her Ministry have seen the natural state they ought to continue in changed and interrupted VIII Apply these principles now to our Reformation and then Sir you will discern that granting this supposition to be true that the Body of the Prelates invested in the ministry of the Church in our Fathers days and assembled in the Trent Council supposing I say that they delivered such determinations in points of Faith as are incompatible with Salvation Granting it to be true that they took away Christian Liberty by Anathematizing all who should refuse to believe and submit to those determinations as they did and by adding to all this violence and compulsion our Fathers had reason to look upon them as Ministers that had justly deprived themselves of all right to exercise their Ministry over them by such ill conduct and to give that power of the Ministry to others They had reason to look upon the party that adhered to these Prelates with such obstinate stiffness as a Body or Society of which a man could not positively say That is the particular Body wherein God nourishes and cherishes his Faithful and Elect. IX Hence likewise it follows that our Fathers are wrongfully charged with making a Schism and separating from the Church For it being sure that the Church consists of the Faithful only and besides that we are of opinion the Trent Bishops themselves broke the band of external Communion with sound Believers and brought things to such a pass that our Ancestors could not possibly joyn with them in the same Assemblies it is evident They were the Beginners of the Schism the Authors and makers of this lamentable division X. It signifies nothing to alledg that they were possest of the Ministry by an exterior and ordinary succession for the Ministry is not such a thing as men when once possest of can never forfeit their right to tho they abuse it never so much They enjoyed it by an external succession 't is confest but this succession with respect to mens persons continues no longer than we can say The faithful are under their Ministry When we cannot be sure of that any more from thenceforth the Prelates have lost their right and such a succession afterwards would be but as the succession of death to a disease or of night to twilight I do not say the Ministry it self is extinct God forbid but I say in such a case it devolves of right to that other part of the Society where the Faithful are The reason of which Truth is this That the Ministers are naturally the Church Representative And all their Authority is derived from the Body of the Faithful When therefore it happens that they break the band of external communion which joyns them to those Faithful it is plain they represent them no longer and the holding their Authority over them afterwards is a force and usurpation XI Lastly From the Principles we have established it appears how vain and ungrounded a scandal it is which the Controvertists of the Romish Communion are continually upbraiding us with of setting up a new Church For being the Church according to Scripture sound sense and the opinions of the Fathers is nothing else but the Society of true Believers To have set up a new Church we must have brought in a new Faith different from what Jesus Christ delivered to the World If they can convict us of being guilty in this point we are heartily content they should not only say we have formed a new Church but that we have formed a false perverse naughty Society and draw all the consequences against us that can be naturally drawn from that Concession But if we on the contrary have only rejected new Doctrines a worship that Christian Religion never was acquainted with and Errors brought into the Church since it was first established if we have only refined the Ministry and restored the Gospel to its natural lustre they ought to be just in acknowledgment that God hath made use of us for the preservation of his true Ancient Primitive Church and the rescuing it from oppression If it be true that the Trent Council have made Articles of Faith of such Doctrines and Practices as were never revealed to us by Christ may we not say that That hath set up a new Religion and consequently a new Church Let us judge of one another by this Rule of right reason and conscientiously examine the truth of what hath been done on both sides for upon such an examination the justice or injustice of taxing us with Novelty will depend THE SECOND PART OF Monsieur de CONDOM's Discourse EXAMINED THUS much I thought fit to say in Answer to the First part of M. de Condom's Discourse The Second will not detain us very long They made me says he some Objections concerning the frequent revolts of the people of Israel who had so often forsaken God the Kings and all the people as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only servant of God till he learnt from God himself that he had reserved to himself seven thousand men which had not bowed the knee unto Baal To this I answer'd proceeds he that for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophesied and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Judah that 't was there under the reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time I shall not say here that the Divine Worship under the reign of Josaphat was not in such great lustre neither but that the Scripture informs us The high places were not taken away for the people offered still and burnt incense in the high places which was a worship forbidden by God But not to insist upon this I say in the first place This instance is a very good proof that the greatest part of this exteriour Society professing themselves to be the people of God that is ten tribes out of twelve were corrupted to that degree that Elijah complain'd he only was left Which shews that we must not always conclude Truth and Purity to be of that side where the number is most nor suppose it impossible for what we call the Visible Church to be corrupted at least as to the greatest part of Professors Secondly I
Argument Mr. Claude returned that this ought not to be called a Jewish Argument because it concluded in favour of Christianity but the contrary principle rather deserved this name because it favoured the Cause and proceedings of the Jews Afterwards Mr. Claude said That if he would have recourse to History it will be no difficult matter to demonstrate that many Councils have fallen into Error and been mistaken in their Determinations Particularly among others the Council of Arimini which condemned the Consubstantiality of the Son that is his Eternal Divinity M. de Condom cried out Whether are you carrying us now Sir To the Council of Arimini When shall we have done if all those Histories must be discust Do not you know that the Council of Arimini was a forced packt Assembly You urge my very argument for me said Mr. Claude which is that a General Council may be packt Here is an instance of one consisting of four hundred Bâ—shops that was so M de Condom answered That those Bishops were compelled by the Emperors Authority who had sent Soldiers among them but afterwards when they were every one returned home they disclaimed what had been done and exprest their remorse for it Mr. Claude replied That many of them it was true did acknowledg they had done amiss but that very acknowledgment of and repentance for a Fault which M. de Condom affirms they shewed is a Confirmation of their committing it and 't is of no great moment to know upon what motives they committed it since it is plain that it was really committed And further every particular man's returning from his Error is a plain Indication that each of them thought himself under no Obligation of acquiescing in what had been determined when they were all met together in Council M. de Condom cried out That there was no necessity of medling with all these Historical Points and that it would divert them too much from the main business There is says he an easier way of deciding the matter The Subject of our Controversy is the first Principle of Faith in particular Persons This in your Opinion is the Holy Scripture in ours the Churches Authority Put the case in a young Child who hath been baptized but hath not yet read the Scripture I would know by what Principle this Child believes the Scripture to be Divine Particularly the Book of Canticles for instance which hath not a word of God in it Now this Child who is a Christian who hath received the Holy Ghost and Faith conveyed into him by Baptism and who is a member of the Church does either doubt of the Scriptures Divine Authority or he does not If he does not doubt then he believes it Divine upon the Churches Authority which is the first Authority he lives under If he does doubt then a man may be a Christian and yet doubt whether the Scripture be true Mr. Claude returned That he could say something to that supposal of M. de Condom That every baptized Child receives the Holy Ghost but was unwilling to stay upon a thing by the by or deviate from the main matter in dispute He would therefore satisfie himself with making a few Reflections upon what M. de Condom urged last The first said he is That the first knowledg of the Catholick Church given by the Holy Spirit to this Child is in all probability given by his Creed where he finds I believe the Holy Catholick Church And yet in the Creed that Article is placed after several other Articles of Doctrine For it begins with God the Father Almighty goes on with the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost and after these comes in the Catholick Church Now this is a manifest proof that the belief of Doctrines is not wholly derived from the Churches Authority for else the Creed ought to be put together after another method and the first thing said should be I believe the Catholick Church and by the Catholick Church I believe in God the Father and so on My second Reflection said he is That you ought not to take it for granted as you do that the first Authority a Child begins to live under is that of the Catholick Church It being manifest That the first Authority a Child lives under is his Father or Mother or if you please his Nurses and that the Churches cannot take place till afterwards but does in some measure depend upon the other The Consequence whereof is That the first Authority which is the Paternal can as well lead the Child to Scripture as it can to the Church Then Thirdly said he It is the easiest thing in the World to retort your own Argument back upon your self thus The baptized Child either doubts of the Churches Authority or he does not if he does not then he believes it upon the Authority of Scripture for there is no other way for him to believe it with a Divine Faith And consequently it is not the Church that induces men to believe Scripture but Scripture that induces the belief of the Church which is the thing we contend for If he does doubt then there is a Christian that hath received the Holy Spirit and Faith conveyed to him by Baptism and is a Member of the Church and yet is in a state of doubt which is that first Authority whereupon all the rest of his Faith depends Now that the Child cannot with a Divine Faith believe the Churches Authority any other way but by the Authority of Scripture I prove thus If it be not by Scripture that he believes the Church and its Authority then 't is either by way of immediate Inspiration and Enthusiasm or by his Fathers or Mothers or Nurses Authority or by Argument taken from the very nature of the Church This could not be by Enthusiasm because the Holy Ghost does not proceed in such a method Nor by his Fathers or Mothers or Nurses Authority for you discern the inconveniences of advancing such kinds of Authority for the first Principle of Faith Nor can it be by proper Proofs and Arguments taken from the nature of the Church because as you in your Argument suppose the Child not yet to have read the Scripture so do I likewise in mine suppose him not to have considered the nature of the Catholick Church and to know no more of it than barely the Name It remains therefore that the Child either believes the Catholick Church by the Scripture which you will not grant or that he does not believe it at all but doubts of it and so you â—all into the same inconvenience as to the Church which you labour to reduce me to with relation to Scripture It may be said very truly That upon this Pinch a man might discern M. de Condom's Wit was not in the condition it used to be and that his natnral freedom of Argument and Repartee plainly slagg'd He put himself upon maintaining that the first Authority the Child lived under was that of the
Church and not his Fathers or Mothers Mr. Claude returned That this was a thing too evident to be denied that the Fathers and Mothers and those who take the first pains about educating the Child is the first Authority with respect to Religion and that he must at first of all learn from them that there is such a thing as a Catholick Church into which he must enter himself or such a thing as the Scripture which was from God and to which he must yield Obedience That being upon enquiry by what mean the Child can come to believe the Catholick Churches Authority there is a necessity for fixing either upon Inspiration or the Paternal Authority or the Scriptures which informed him concerning it M. de Condom answered That the Childs Faith in the Churches Authority was a Divine Faith because it was the Holy Ghost that wrought it in him Mr. Claude replied That the question was not concerning the efficient Cause which produced this Faith in the Child but concerning the Motive or Argument by which it was produced If M. de Condom's meaning were that the Holy Ghost wrought Faith in this Child without any Argument or Motive at all this were a sort of Enthusiasm and the Holy Ghost does not Influence People at that rate M. de Condom said there were indeed Motives of Credibility Mr. Claude returned hereupon That if he would allow the Child so much time as to examine those Motives of Credibility for the Authority of the Church and perceive their strength He himself would in like manner allow the same Child time to examine the Motives of Credibility for the Authority of Scripture and perceive the strength of them but in this case he must forego his Argument which proceeds upon a Supposition that the Child never yet read the Scripture But is not this true said M. de Condom That in these circumstances the Child either does or does not doubt of the Scriptures being Divine And is it not as true said Mr. Claude That in these Circumstances the Child either does or does not doubt of the Churches Authority For if you take the Child before he have read the Scripture I will look upon him too before he knows what Motives of Credebility there are for the Churches Authority It is your part to answer my Argument and the very same answer you give will serve me against yours But do you as you think fit I however will not scruple to give a direct answer to your way of reasoning The Child then may be lookt upon with Distinction as to three several times either before his Father have ever shewed him the Bible and informed him that this Book came from God or after his Father have told him thus much but before he himself have read it or lastly after that he hath read the Book himself As to the first of these times which is that your Argument looks upon him in it cannot well be said that then he either does or does not doubt for neither the one nor the other is strictly true according to your meaning Not to doubt of any thing signifies to be well assured of it Now before a man can be said to doubt or to be well assured that any thing is so or so he must first have some knowledge of the thing it self I can neither doubt nor be assured that such a Person is King of Spain unless I first have some knowledg of the Person So that your reasoning is by no means good that a Child either does or does not doubt of the Scripture's being Divine For there is a medium between these two to wit such as consists in a state called An Ignorance of pure negation He knows not as yet what the Scripture is nor hath ever heard talk of it To doubt or not doubt whether Scripture be Divine a Man must have some knowledg and form some Idea of the thing But the Child can never form any Idea of a Book he never heard once mentioned At the second point of time when his Father hath showed him the Bible and told him that Book is the Word of God but the Child hath not yet read it himself he believes it to be the Word of God but this he does not by a Divine but humane Faith because his Father hath told him so And this is the case of a Catechumen At the third point of time when he is supposed to have read the Book himself and felt the virtue and efficacy of it he believes it to be God's World but this he does not now by a humane Faith because his Father told him so but by a Divine Faith because he hath found the Divinity and Efficacy of it upon himself and this is the condition of a Believer M. de Condom laid hold of the word Catechumen and said that this was a Christian one already Baptized and actually admitted into Covenant with God Mr. Claude answered that by the word Catechumen he meant nothing else but a Child after Baptism at the time of his being instructed in the first Rudiments of Religion M. de Condom beat again upon almost the same things that had been said before constantly affirming it to be the Churches Authority that the Child received the Scriptures as Divine and that having received them as such from the Church he did afterwards receive the meaning and interpretation of them from thence also Pray Sir tell me said Mr. Claude then when a Child learns at first of all that there is a Catholick Church Is it barely a general Idea which consists in knowing only that there is such a thing as a Catholick Church without knowing where or which it is or does it determine him to that Church whose publick Assemblies he sees For if it be the former of these this as you would make it is a mighty wild and insignificant principle of Faith I know that there is a Catholick Church to whose Authority it is my duty to submit but I cannot tell where that Church is nor which is she this would be but an odd principle of Faith The Child said M. de Condom does certainly determine this Idea to the particular Church whose Assemblies he sees and in which he himself bears a part and does believe that to be the Catholick Church and not barely that there is such a Church Let us imagine then said Mr. Claude a Child born within a Church that is Heretical or Schismatical the Aethiopian Church suppose the first principle of Faith in this Child will be from the Aethiopian Church looking upon that as the Catholick From this Church then and from her Authority according to your Tenet he will receive the Scripture as Divine from her likewise he will receive the meaning and interpretation of Scripture and he must never afterwards believe himself priviledged to examine the determinations of his Aethiopick Church for fear of falling into the inconvenience and absurdity of fancying it impossible for him a private single
person to understand the true meaning of Scripture better than the whole body of the Church Tell me now Sir whether according to this principle this Child be not obliged always to abide within that Heretical or Schismatical Church Tell me what means you will contrive for him to get out of it It is evident then that your principle would serve as well to continue a Jew in his Judaism a Pagan in his Heathenism and a Heretick in his Heresy as an Orthodox Christian in the true Church To this M. de Condom replied that in the perswasion of that Aethiopian Child we must make a difference between that part which proceeded from the Holy Spirit and that which is the effect of prejudice and humane prepossession That the Holy Spirit 's dictate was in general that there was a Catholick Church somewhere or other but his supposal that the Church in which he was born was that Catholick Church proceeded from humane prepossession It is true he did from this Church receive the Scriptures and belived them to be Divine for no other reason but upon its Authority But afterwards as he was reading the Scriptures the Holy Ghost raised in him some scruples about the Church he was born in and by this means he came off from the Heresy and Schism he found himself insnared in Mr. Claude returned that M. de Condom must of necessity either retract his principle or confess what he now alledged to be utterly impossible Because this Aethiopian neither can nor must be allowed to understand the Scriptures any otherwise than in the sense and interpretation of his own Church by whose Authority it is that he believes them to be Divine and from whose hands he receives their meaning so that when he reads Scripture there can never start up any scruples in his mind against the truth of his own Church because he never expounds any Text of Scripture but in agreement with the sense of that Church about it Now if on the other side your meaning be that this person expounds Scripture of his own head and according to his own judgment so taking it in a sense different from that of the Church you at the same time make him forego the principle that you have all this while been contending for and it is not you only that make him forego it but you do besides maintain that the Holy Ghost himself makes him forego it and all those mighty inconveniences you exclaimed against vanish into nothing He added moreover that what M. de Condom said last justified the measures the Protestants had taken in relation to the Church of Rome for altho that had been believed to be the Catholick Church in the time of our Infancy tho we had received the Scriptures from her and believed them to be of Divine Authority yet must we not be blamed for making a difference between that part of this belief which proceeded from the Holy Ghost and that which was the effect of humane Prepossession and Prejudice We cannot be found fault with for having admitted some Scruples against the Truth of this Church as we read the Scriptures and for having upon this accout withdrawn our selves from her Communion M. de Condom said the Cases did still differ in this circumstance That the Ethiopian when he left his own would betake himself to the Catholick Church whereas the Pretended Reformed have not put themselves into any other Communion at all You courted indeed Jeremy's the Patriarch of Constantinople but he would have nothing to do with you The separation was not from our selves said Mr. Claude and that is enough to shew that we have not separated from the true Church If Jeremy the Patriarch of Constantinople would have nothing to do with us as you say that was to his own loss and he did not do as he should have done in it Upon this the Company rose and the Conference which lasted some time longer grew a great deal more confused several things were then spoken of M. de Condom exaggerated much and pretended to draw a parallel between the separation of the Protestants and that of the old Hereticks particularly the Arrians and Macedonians that set up new Churches by themselves Mr. Claude compared the Protestants behaviour to that of Christ's Apostles when they separated from the Jews that as the Apostles relied on Scripture against the Jews who relied upon Ecclesiastical Assemblies and their Authority the Protestants did the same against the Church of Rome He said the Arrians maintained that the Consubstantiality of the Son of God determined by the Nicene Council was a Novel Doctrine and that many other persons had in truth exprest themselves very unadvisedly concerning the Divinity of the Son among others he instanced in Origea Justin Martyr and the Council of Antioch As for Origen M. de Condom said he was a suspected Author and the Council of Antioch said he was an Arrian Council to which Mr. Claude replied that he was much mistaken for that Council was held before Arrius his time and yet rejected the Term Consubstantial As to Justin Martyr How Sir said he a Martyr speak amiss of the Divinity of the Son of God! I will never believe a word on 't You may believe what you think sit Sir said Mr. Claude but for all that the thing is even so Afterwards M. de Condom put himself upon the Invocation of Saints and Prayers for the Dead For the first of these he told them Mr. Daille had allowed it to be Thirteen hundred years old and Mr. Blondell acknowledged the second to be of great Antiquity Mr. Claude replied it was no great wonder if the Church of Rome which had collected and Cononized the Errors and Superstitions of former Ages had picked up some that were of a good old standing But he ought to have said withal that Mr. Daille had made it appear that for Three hundred years together there was not to be found the least footsteps of Invocation of Saints and especially that there was not any manner of ground for it in Scripture That he acknowledged Prayer for the Dead to be one of the oldest superstitions but there was a mighty difference between the practice of the Primitive Christians and the modern devotions of the Romish Church And after all it was an Error contrary to the principles of Scripture M. de Condom betook himself again to the Comparison between the Protestants and Hereticks of old inferring from thence that they and their Church was new and upstart Mr. Claude shewed him that this prejudice was extremely unjust and of very pernicious consequence Unjust because on one hand it placed the advantage on the strongest side and those that have most of their party whereas the Scripture teaches us quite contrary That we must not follow a multitude to do evil For the strongest side are continually taxing others with making a new Body and a new Church Unjust secondly because a false Antiquity may be
a full and final resolution of the case shall be given by the Word of God and such as refuse to submit to this shall be excommunicated Secondly he produced a formulary of a Letter Missive to the National Synods framed in the Synod of Vitre and which was to be a pattern for all the Provinces to follow for the future by which they promise submission to all the resolutions of that holy Assembly to obey and execute every particular of them as being perswaded says the Formulary that God will preside there and lead you into all truth and equity by his Holy Spirit and by the Rule of his Word Besides that he produced an Act of the National Synod held at Charenton in the Year 1644. where the Independents opinion is condemned who will not allow that particular Congregations should depend upon the Authority of Colloquies and Synods but that every one should be governed by Laws within it self Now this Act expresly declares that that Sect opens a door to all manner of irregularities and extravagances that it deprives men of all means of remedying disorders and would if admitted make as many several Religions as Parishes Lastly he produced an Act of the National Synod at Sainte-foy by which upon occasion of some overtures for a re-union with those of the Ausburg Confession the Synod assigns Deputies to go and confer with them to whom full power is granted to agree upon and determine whatever points should be debated whether in matters of Doctrine or any other thing that might concern the Good and Peace of all the Churches even so far as to consent that their Decisions should be inserted in their Confessions of Faith From all which he inferred That even those of Mr. Claude's Religion did acknowledg a necessity that in order to the preservation of Unity in the Church men should submit their Judgments and pay an entire and absolute obedience to Ecclesiastical Assemblies without leaving themselves at liberty to examine their determinations or judg whether they were agreeable to the Word of God or no and that upon refusal of this Obedience it was just to proceed to Excommunication That this was exactly what the Church of Rome would have and that she desired no more But that we nevertheless in our disputes with her advance a quite contrary Principle He therefore entreated from Mr. Claude a distinct answer to this Point and would quietly hear what he could say to it Adding moreover that Mr. Claude ought to be the more ready to reply upon this subject because no new thing was proposed to him the same Acts and the same consequences that he now deduced from them being to be found in his Exposition of the Catholick Doctrine Mr. Claude first of all replied That although his coming thither was not with intentions to hold a Conference strictly and by rule yet he was extreamly glad that he had now an opportunity given him of testifying to M. de Condom how much he esteemed his person and that having no particular worth of his own he thought it a great honour that a Prelate of M. de Condom's Character should single him out to engage in Controversy with him That he would endeavour to give him satisfaction in each of the points now propounded to him and that if in the following part of the Discourse any expression should escape from him which might be offensive to M. de Condom he protested before-hand that it should be much against his will and design To this M. de Condom replied in very civil and obliging terms and Mr. Claude then resuming the discourse told him That in general whatever he had alledged just before did by no means infer such a blind and entire submission to the determinations of Ecclesiastical Assemblies as the Church of Rome pretends to impose That we must distinguish between two sorts of Authorities the one supream and unlimited the other limited and depending to the former we owe a full and perfect obedience to the other a conditional one only The former M. de Condom was sensible is by the Protestants attributed to God alone speaking to us in the Holy Scriptures and that the second was it they allowed the Pastors of the Church considered either single and by themselves or met together in a Synod or Council That their Authority being only Ministerial is restrained two ways one is That they must frame their decisions not of their own heads nor after their own fancies but according to the Word of God the other That they must always allow the persons under their Jurisdiction the priviledg of examining those decisions that so they may know whether they be really agreeable to God's Word Whence it follows that the obedience due to them ever goes upon this condition that they have not swerved from the Word of God That the Authority of Pastors and Assemblies composed of such cannot extend further than that of our Parliaments in the State of France who are not empowered to alter old Laws and enact new ones and whom we are priviledged nay obliged to disobey so oft as their Injunctions are prejudicial to the King's Service and the Allegiance we owe him That the Authority of Church-Assembles can at most be but as that of Fathers over Children because both God and Nature have invested Fathers with it The Fathers have a right to Act in their Childrens names because they have a right of Educating and Commanding them and the Scripture frequently enjoyns to Children a readiness to learn and obedience to their Fathers yet does it not follow from hence that Children are not priviledged and obliged to examine their Fathers Instructions and Commands whether they be true or false just or unjust and what shall appear to be false and unjust that to reject That nevertheless the Authority of Pastors and their Assemblies is really very great as is likewise that of Parliaments and Fathers notwithstanding their Authorities are under some limitations That the Pastors are as publick Trustees for the keeping God's Word appointed to study and meditate upon it continually thence to deduce necessary truths for the peoples improvement and to save private men a labour which they cannot always attend to because diverted and perplexed by the business of the World That so long as the Pastors discharged this Duty well the people were obliged to obey and submit to their words but when they deviated from it they were to be looked upon as false and treacherous persons Afterwards he came particularly to those Acts M. de Condom had urged and told him That the Clause of Submission contain'd in the Letters Missive to National Synods must be understood according to this Principle and under these Limitations because grounded upon this Supposal That all things would be managed there according to God's Word For those expressions Being perswaded that God will preside among you and lead you into all Truth by his Holy Spirit and by the rule of his Word do imply a
even of a private Doctor but in as much as both Assemblies and private persons are liable to mistakes a man must not carry on this Judgment of Charity and Humility so far as that he should suffer himself to be blinded by it and when an Assembly or Doctor have really erred not to see it for this would be to stretch things beyond their due bounds For instance said he in the capacity I am in over my Flock it is mens duty to presume favourably of me that I understand the meaning of Scripture better than plain private Persons but for all that they are by no means bound to think me infallible nor fancy it impossible I should ever be mistaken in a point of Doctrine and in such a case a plain private Person is priviledged to think he could understand the Scripture better than I. Private Doctors says Al de Condom are not at all concerned in our Dispute all the World knows private Doctors may err and consequently they can have no title to an absolute obedience The Controversie is concerning the whole Body of an Ecclesiastical Assembly and I expect from you a clear distinct answer to this particular whether you believe single private men can understand the meaning of Scripture better than the whole Body of the Church convened in a Council Mr. Claude replied That he only mentioned private Doctors as an Argument that Christian Humility should not be abused nor made a pretence for men to deny themselves the benefit of their own Eyes that so they might avoid Pride and Presumption For if by M. de Condom's own Confession private Doctors have no right to an absolute Obedience it is neither a proud nor presumptuous Imagination that it may possibly happen we should understand Scripture sometimes better than they tho for the main we are bound to presume in favour of them and that in probability it will be otherwise The case is the same with Assemblies for even these being not Infallible ought not to challenge an absolute Submission and such as God alone hath a just right to That no less a Person than St. Paul hath declared That he had no Dominion over the Corinthians Faith M. de Condom said that quotation was impertinent and desired to know of Mr Claude whether he was not of opinion that an absolute obedience was due to St. Paul The absolute obedience replied Mr. Claude which was due to St. Paul was so to his Divine Doctrines and not his person No more said M de Condom do we pretend that men ought to pay this obedience to the persons of men whereof the Councils consist but to the Holy Ghost by which they are guided according to that profession of the Council at Jerusalem It seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and to us When the Holy Ghost appears in the determinations of Councils as he did in St. Paul's Doctrine and that of the Jerusalem Council then said Mr. Claude this Obedience must be paid never else And this appearance of the Holy Ghost consisteth in the Councils decisions being framed according to the Word of God Still M. de Condom urged that the dispute was not concerning the Word of God but the true meaning of that Word That distinction says Mr. Claude signifies nothing at all because the true meaning of the Word of God and the Word it self are but one and the same thing Then M. de Condom returned to the business of the Independents and urged that according to Mr. Claude's principle there was no remedy for the avoiding Independency nor any prevention that there should not be as many different Religions as Parishes nay as many as there be single persons That the Independents did not cast off Assemblies so far as concerned instruction only they did not allow them in any Authoritative decisions and that in this the Pretended Reformed agreed with them He beat upon this over and over again for a long time together to all which Mr. Claude return'd the same answer he had done before viz. That there was not indeed any humane means of Certainty and Infallibility which could prevent the exorbitant errors of mens minds but there was a certain and infallible Divine one even the Holy Spirit of God imparted to his True Believers That Synods and other Assemblies were means of mighty use and very proper for this purpose and the Independents condemnation was for rejecting these last and not for refusing to Assemblies a full and Absoute Power of determining matters in Controversy That although the Protestants did not allow such Assemblies a supreme and unbounded Authority yet they did allow them as much as the Ministers and Dispensers of God's Word are capable of At this rate said M. de Condom then we shall never have done disputing I ask you therefore once more Sir whether you believe that single and private persons can understand the meaning of God's Word better than the whole Church convened in Council Mr Claude told him he had answered that Question already to wit that it does not usually fall out so and that further 't is our duty to hope the best of an Ecclesiastical Assembly but still it might come to pass that through the prevalency of mens passions and worldly Interests the decisions of such Assemblies might be contrary to Truth You must not run back thus to Interests and Passions said M. de Condom but answer my question in one word by saying either Yes or No. Mens Passions and worldly Interests said Mr. Claude are premised here with a great deal of Reason because these are the main things that occasion erroneous determinations but since you are not willing to hear of them my answer must be with this distinction That God does not suffer it commonly so to be but absolutely speaking it is possible it should be so M. de Condom said that was as much as he desired and that it was the most absurd thing in the World to believe it so much as possible for a single Man and a private person to understand the meaning of Scripture better than the whole Church met together in Council Mr. Claude replied that he was amazed to hear M. de Condom cry out upon That as such a mighty absurdity which resulted merely from the freedom used by God in dispensing his Grace That supposing the Controversy to concern such means of knowledg as are purely humane it would indeed be absurd to say that a single and private person should be wiser than a whole Assembly and that this would be then a principle of pride and presumption But the matter now treated of is the illumination of the Holy Spirit which bloweth where it listeth and God can give it to a private single person and yet not give it to a whole Assembly That of this there was an eminent instance in our Saviours time as he himself said I thank thee O Father Lord of Heaven and Earth for that thou hast bid these things from
these ruins Qu. 3. Whether the Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether both together considered in a different sense and under different respects Thus much I think Sir may suffice to give a resolution of the second question which was whether the Bishop of Condom's definition of the Church upon Earth was a good and sufficient definition viz. A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word or whether it was defective and required something else to be added to it You see the necessity of handling this subject with some exactness for it being our business to know what Society we must be of to obtain Salvation and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church being it concerns us to know to what Society the Promises of Jesus Christ are to be applied and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church The first thing in reason to be done is to form an abstracted Idea of the true Church before it be applied to any particular subject that so this may serve for a Rule and direct us to know at least what that true Church is which we enquire after We know in general that there is one true Church we know also that this Church is a Religious Society but when we come to define it particularly every one knows his own method of doing it This therefore is the first thing to be determined not only to avoid equivocation but to prevent a continual deviation which may otherwise happen through the whole dispute by means of a mistake in the beginning and this having given occasion to the second question the dispatching that already will mightily facilitate our enquiry into the third The thing then to be examined is whether the Society of true believers who only are the Church be visible or invisible or whether both in some senses and respects For the resolution of this Query I shall not say that this true Church being a Society of men and so a body that hath its external order as all other Societies have hath likewise consequent to that a visibility common to it with all other bodies Thus much is necessarily supposed for the Believers are not Angels nor invisible Spirits but in this respect like the rest of mankind But this visibility being supposed we must further enquire Whether there be not yet another which gives it the Character of Jesus Christ's true Church so that a man may say That the body we see and which is the object of our senses as the true Church of Christ In this there would not be the least difficulty had not God's design as to his Church been disturbed by the enemy of our Salvation For since God calls true Believers only and since as we have already shewn such alone constitute the Church were it not for what happens from some other thing there would not be among the outward Professors of Christianity either Hypocrites or Hereticks or Superstitious or worldly or profane persons And thus none but such as are truly the faithful being to be found among them this outward profession would be a sure means and an univocal Character to know the true Faith and Regeneration by and consequently to know the true Church of Jesus Christ as such So that we need say only thus much That although the Church were not immediately visible by its inward and cssential form because none can immediately see mens hearts but God only yet it would be visible by its external form as by a sure distinguishing Character For it might be seen by its Ministery and profession of Faith in Christ and known to such a degree that a man might infallibly and positively say That is the Church But we all know that is Jesus Christ sowed his good seed in the field of the world so to use the expressions in the Parable the enemy hath likewise sown Tares That is that with the true Believers are intermixt vast numbers of men who 〈◊〉 no more than the appearance and outside of Christianity and so make the outward profession to be a note subject to mighty uncertainties and equivocation This God hath permitted for reasons known to his own wisdom and hence have risen on one side false Churches and on the other false members of the true I mean whole Communities who have wrongfully assumed to themselves the title of a Church and single persons who wrongfully assumed the title of the Faithful So that the Church now like all other things liable to hypocrisy and dissimulation cannot be truly known without much difficulty And whereas according to the nature of the thing the Churches visibility and invisibility ought to lye here that its essential and internal from cannot be seen immediately and of it self but may by the mediation of its external form instead of this they do now consist further in a discerning between true and false a distinguishing betwixt that which is real and sincere and that which is counterfeit We must therefore examine how this distinction is to be made because in it consists the visibility or invisibility of the true Church Whether we must make it between several external bodies differing from one another or between several persons externally incorporated into the same Body I bâ—gin with the former and affirm that the discerning between several bodies depends upon some certain marks or characters whereby that body on whose side the true Church is may be distinguished from another where it is not I shall not now shew what those Characters are for this is another dispute between the Church of Rome and us which we need not here engage our selves in It is enough we are all agreed that such marks there are and that by them this distinction must be made That which most concerns us to take notice of and which I desire you would observe with a very particular attention is that after we have found this Body or external Society on whose side the true Church is we may and in reality do form to our selves two notions of it one proceeding from a mere Judgment of Charity the other from a Judgment of Reflection By the Judgment of Charity we look upon all within the Body to be true Believers indifferently For the searching of hearts being not in our power but peculiar to God Charity makes no distinctions but supposes that things are in truth what they should be and upon this supposition we call all that society the visible Church speaking simply and absolutely By the Judgment of Reflection having consulted the Rules of Scripture and the light of Experience we come to know that there are Tares mixed with the Wheat and that it is past a doubt that among these outward Professours are abundance of hypocritical superstitious ambitious and prophane people Hence we correct our first notion and term this Society a visible mixt Church Thus in the same external body we distinguish two different Bodies one of true