Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	authority_n	church_n	infallibility_n	4,945	5	11.7584	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64381	A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison.	Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715.	1687 (1687)	Wing T723; ESTC R18602	49,387	102

to assign the Holy Scriptures To which A. P. reply'd that there were c two things incumbent on the Doctor to prove 1. That the Books which he called the Scripture were truly such 2. That when so prov'd they were of themselves a sufficient Rule But to the second Point nothing was said To the first the Doctor replied that their Bible had been handed down from the Apostles A. P. desired to know by what Hands The Doctor answered by the Testimony of d all the World Turks Jews Gentiles and Christians But A. P. urging to know from what immediate Hands the Church of England had received them when she began to reform The Doctor answered From the Universal Church and that he meant by Universal Church all those e different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians Then A. P. demanded Whether those different Bodies of Christians made one true Church or no Or whether some one Part of them were so The Doctor tho much press'd would specify no Part which he acknowledged free from Corruption Upon that A. P. desired to know how the Doctor could make out that his Bible was the pure and uncorrupt Word of God if all those from whose Testimony he took it were corrupted and consequently false Witnesses and what Assurance he had f the sense of Holy Scripture being as he said depraved the Letter remained pure Here g a pleasant School-Master diverted the Auditory with a Picture as he said of the Blessed Trinity and offer'd it A. P. with wry Mouths and Antick Gestures But A. P. saying he saw no Reason why God appearing to Daniel under the Figure of an old Man might not be so painted provided one meant not to delineate him specie propriâ He return'd to the Doctor and press'd his forementioned Argument but the Schoolmaster continuing to give Diversion to the People and throw in impertinent Questions A. P. desired him to be silent saying he came not to dispute with a Buffoon but a Doctor which was ill taken Dr. T. read a Lesson of Charity upon that occasion endeavouring to prove that A. P. had violated the Holy-day And when Mr. M. said in A. P's Defence that h S. Paul had used as sharp Language in a like occasion The Doctor replied that if A. P. was St. Paul he might so do When the Doctor had done his i Harangue A. P. returned to his Argument and much importun'd the Doctor to make out how he was assured his Bible was the pure Word of God and not as full of Corruption and Falshood as he believed those to be from whom he received it Here the Doctor call'd k Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire that no Body might argue against the Doctor but himself and instead of answering the Difficulty began a private Parly with Mr. M. And l A. P. could never obtain any thing like a Satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty propos'd In the end he answer'd the calling the Authority of Scripture in question disposed to Atheism A. P. reply'd he believed it might in their Principle who having taken all Infallibility from the Church could assert none for the Scripture This Debate lasted upwards of 2 Hours when the Doctor threw in several By-questions about St. Peter's being at Rome m which when A. P. was ready to prove n the Doctor passed to the Real Presence and Transubstantion A. P. demanded of the Doctor whom he would be judg'd by not being able at this time to obtain any Answer to the first and chief Query The Doctor replied by the Universal Church A. P. demanded whether by the Universal Church now in being or by that which had been in the four first Centuries The Doctor said that of the four first Centuries A. P. asking how we should know the Judgment of those Times The Doctor answered by the Testimony of the Fathers then living Then A. P. naming several and proffering to begin with which the Doctor pleased o he desired to hear St. Ambrose A. P. thereupon read one out of his 4th Book de Sacramentis which the Doctor noted down and required A. P. to put his Hand to it which he refus'd for the present but said as soon as he had produced his whole Evidence he would then sign it But the Doctor plainly refused to hear any more saying that the rest would prove like that which he believed to be of a Spurious Author To which A. P. replied that if he doubted of that Work he would cite another of the same Author 's to the very same Intent of an unquestionable Work. But the Doctor refused absolutely to hear it And continued to press A. P. to subscribe He answered that he would when all his Witnesses were heard and with much ado after about 3 quarters of an hour after twenty endeavours he obliged the Doctor to hear of Justinus his Apology to Antoninus Pius p but that the Doctor would not note down or hear one word more which seeming unreasonable to Mr. M. he asked the Doctor using his own Instance whether or no if one should come to pay him a q a Sum of Mony and the first piece might appear somewhat dubious he would refuse the rest upon that account especially if the Party was content to change it in the very place Now this Paper it is which has made all the great Noise as though the Doctor having summ'd up the whole Discourse A. P. should refuse to sign what he had asserted In this Debate the Parties rising up the Doctor was pleased to say that r the Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word and proved against A. P. thus You believe yours to be the only saving Church but you are bound to save all you can therefore you are bound to break your Word given in your Paper of Rules of your Schools of not tampering with your Scholars in Matters of Religion A. P. replied that it was a very injurious Assertion and prov'd no more against him than his Majesty which he thus proved His Majesty believes his to be the only Saving Church but his Majesty being Head of his People is bound to endeavour to save them as much as A. P. to save his Scholars therefore according to the Doctor 's Argument his Majesty is bound to break his Word given to his People of not forcing their Consciences This Reflection was ill taken and A. P. said he was willing to believe the Doctor spake it not with any such Intention but added that it was ill done to vent such Propositions whence naturally and unavoidably ensued so bad Illations Then A. P. answered directly that no body was bound always to do all the good possible And that to teach gratis Learning with the Fear of God was very well done although one medled not with Religion and defied the Doctor to bring the Scholar where note that the Boy on whose account the Dispute was held was no Scholar that ever heard him touch a

first Christians received the Canon of the old Testament Mr. M. catch'd at the words and said D. T. builds his Faith on Jews D. T. answered That that was not fair and that he should take his words in their coherence and make the best of them He continued and said That by this way of Universal Consent we were by way of external inducement as sure of this Books being the Bible as of Cicero's Offices being his Book Mr. M. said we were not infallibly sure of that D. T. added That the Consent of the World removed all doubt and that for the Holy Bible when men came to consider the Prophesies and their Events the Characters of Christ the History of Christ and things in those Books most worthy of God and use of pious means in humility of Soul they had further assurance begotten in them Mr. M. asked D. T. how he proved that inward sense D. T. said it could satisfie the persons themselves Then Mr. P. began again to ask Questions about the Bible How from what Churches Copies c. we had received it It had been no difficult matter to have perplexed him by asking from what Copy of the O. T. St. Peter had what Copy of the New he gave to Linus and he to the rest and where and by whom Linus was ordained and in what form c. but he only ask'd him upon what motive he believed Infallibly that St. Peter was ever at Rome seeing the Scripture had not said it Mr. P. said all the world knew that D. T. ask'd him whether all the world were good witnesses for this and not for the Bible Then Mr. P. said something of Thou art Peter and upon Thee will I build my Church D. T. said that he made no distinction between the masculine and feminine Gender and that the Text ran not upon thee Peter or this Peter but upon this Rock 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Feminine tho admitting that our Saviour did build upon him for by him he opened the Kingdom of the Gospel to the Jews at Jerusalem and to the Gentiles at Cesarea yet seeing there were Twelve Foundations Christ promising that he should be one did not exclude the other Eleven Hereabouts upon Mr. P's citing this place and that other Hear the Church c. and D T. desiring to fix upon something and opening an English Bible and Mr P. denying it to be the Bible and D. T. desiring to send for a Greek Testament one was produced by the Company but not used Mr. P. saying he would allow the Translation of the places to be true Mrs. R. in this talk about St. Peter being nigh Mr. P. said softly 't was St. Peters Confession on which Christ built his Church Hereabouts also Mr. P. spake about a Church at Rome spoken of by St. Paul and D. T. taking up the Bible and desiring to show how that matter stood was not permitted after three or four offers For Mr. P. turned all off by general discourse about the Bible and Rule of Faith and began again to ask Questions and to say that the Greeks of whom D. T. spake were all Lyars being Hereticks and that the Catholicks meaning Romans were said by him to be a corrupt Church and that therefore the Protestants depended upon Lyars for their Bible Here first began a strife about the word Catholick and of the Popes being the Catholick Bishops and D. T. asking Mr. P. whether the Ancient Bishops of other Sees did not stile themselves the Catholick Bishops of this and the other place Mr. P. yielded it and this word-bate ended Then D. T. in Answer to his Argument said to this effect First That the Greeks were not all Lyars and Hereticks and that the Missionaries had Misrepresented them Secondly That when all the World of all Ages conspired in a testimony about a book or such a City as Rome or Jerusalem tho some might be ill men and in some particulars Lyars yet we could not believe them Lyars in their Universal Consent because they could never be in a Confederacy to vend such a Lye. Thirdly That tho we took in part the Testimony of the Roman Church yet from her Authority the S. S. could not be prov'd because she went about to prove her Being and Authority out of the Scriptures and therefore could not do it till it was first proved that the Scriptures were the Word of God and the places cited were infallibly proved to carry that sense which the Romanists put upon them D. T. remembers not that any thing was said to the two last but upon the first Mr. P. charged him with joining with the Greeks in the Herefie of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father by the Son Mr. D. A. C. not known before to D. T. interposed and said That that was a dispute about Phrases and that they were agreed in sense And when Mr. P. wondred at that saying and had said there would in a fortnights time come forth a Book which should sufficiently show what the Greek Church was D. T. referred him to Father Simons Book called Histoire Critique de la Creance c. des Nations du Levant published three years ago in which that Learned Romanist show'd how the Missionaries had slandered the Greek Church and made those Hereticks who were not so and raised a dust about words when they agreed in meaning Mr. P. did not own his knowledg of this Book Since the Conference D. T. hath seen a Second Book upon the like Argument lately published by the said Learned French man and he perceives by it that as times Change men can do so too Here abouts D. T. offer'd to fix upon something and to speak to the Text cited by M. P. viz. Hear the Church but Mr. P. did not suffer it for some time but said The Church was a City on a Hill and always visible and ask'd Where such a Church as ours was visible in all Ages And how and where c. And clap'd his Hand with great force upon the Table and a while after said If he could not shew the visibility of his Church and we could that of ours he would be hang'd D. T. when Mr. P. beat the Table said smiling Sir I would not by any means come under your Ferula Mr. P. replied very calmly I use none D. T. does think that he ought to have spared those words as seeming to reflect upon that Profession which he very much Honours as one of the most useful in the World As likewise those used by him upon Mr. P's talking of being hang'd it being somewhat severe But in heat of talk D. T. did say Mr. P. you use a very scurvy word and you put me in mind of a saying of the late Lord Faulkland You are apt to hang and to damn but if they whom you hang were no more hang'd than they who you damn were damn'd few men would fear either your hanging or your damning After this there

kept my Word of sending my first Copy to you and have not sent abroad one single Line but after your Receipt of this seeing you have begun on this manner I will let the World know the whole Truth so far as my Memory with all due helps will serve me and from Truth I would not willingly swerve a Tittle For the Story of my going to the Savoy to ask your Pardon it is made very common though I do not charge you with it and if you be curious about Places and Persons I will name some of them to you I never said I came to give you a second Challenge Nor did I come to beg of you to forbear your talking of this Matter in your Pulpit but to Expostulate with you about the unfitness of that way and to understand whether you would keep to the Method you agreed on at the end of our rambling Talk rather than Conference and to tell you that in my Judgment it was most becoming The Jesuit your Witness did not differ from me in this Opinion nor Doctor Claget who was mine I did purpose as I told you to send something to you about your Account but having perused it I perceived you might by comparing it with mine see what you omitted what you mistook and what as to me it seems you sometimes added I will therefore save you the trouble of my Notes upon your Narrative though perhaps in due time I may help others who may not carry my Account in their Heads with such Animadversions I believe in this as you do that it may be fit to Print the whole for the quieting of People who are as yet in suspence and seeing you put me in Mind of it I resolve by that way to ease my self of the trouble of transcribing Copies You have my Letters and I yours and your Account and with this I send you mine together with a pursuit of my Discourse about your three first Quotations Do with them what you please and write what you please further and I will take the like freedom My Stationer which I did but just now know of is at Oxford so that I must elsewhere apply my self but this I promise you that as soon as I send any thing to the Press I will give charge to the Printer to conveigh to you by way of due notice the first Sheet that shall be wrought off All things on my part shall be fair and I am not your Enemy unless which God forbid you will account me so for telling the Truth but can still very heratily Subscribe my self SIR Your Friend as far as oblig'd by the Gospel of our Blessed Saviour Tho. Tenison Mr. Pulton 's PAPER sent in his first Letter with Dr. Tenison 's Animadversions upon it Mr. Pulton's Paper AS the concern I had that the Truth might appear to a Soul that was in search of it made me willing to enter on a Discourse of that Subject with you so I humbly beg that nothing but Charity and a true Sense of Zeal may appear in what may happen to be writt by either of us not to the Scandal but to the Edification of all such as may peruse our Papers You having therefore been pleas'd in our late Conference to assign the Holy Scriptures for the Rule of Faith I desired of you the Favour to know what assurance you had that the Volumes you call Holy Scripture are the undoubted Word of God and this having been the main Point of our four hours Discourse I humbly crave a more clear and positive Answer then I could then obtain You were pleas'd to say the Bible had been handed down to you from the Apostles Then I desired the Favour to know who they were that had so handed it down to you you replied the Universal Church Whereupon I demanded what you meant by the Universal Church You answered That you mean't all those several Bodies who make up the number of Christians Then I farther pressed to know whether all these made up one true Church or no. You said there was something true in each of them but would assign none void of great corruption Upon which I replied That the Volumes which wholy relied on corrupted Authority could have no assurance of being the pure true and certain Word of God. And here we stuck near 2 hours I never being able to obtain a satisfactory Answer I humbly therefore crave to be satisfied 10. Whither receiving the Scripture from the Universal Church you have received a Canon common to all distinct Bodies of Christians If not that you farther explicate what you mean by taking the Scripture from the Universal Church 20. How the Universal Church consisting in Members disagreing in Faith can give you a true and certain Rule of Faith. 30. If when you begann you pretended Reformation there was any Church in being which had that precise Canon you have now and explicated it as you do If so be pleas'd to assign where it was and how you took your Scripture from it As for what related to Transubstantiation and Real Presence it having been a Question thrown in by the by I desire it may be remitted to the second place and having cleared the present difficultie where the stresse of the Discourse lay we will then pass to particular Controversies if you please Dr. Tenison 's short Notes upon this PAPER 1. IT calls the Boy a Soul who was in search after Truth whilst at the same time Mr. P. was satisfy'd that the Boy had never acquainted his Father his Master his Minister with his Doubts till after he had been at Mass and was by his Master and Mistress accused of having been guilty of unsufferable lying and neglect of Business and of the growth of both since he had had Conversation with a Romish Apprentice and Mr. P. and others of that way It is not a thing to be easily credited that a Soul that is in sincere and diligent search after Truth of Doctrine should at the same time become more sinful than formerly in the invention of Lyes and more sowre in Nature and more faithless in the duty of his Calling 2 Mr. P calls the Rule of Faith and the proving the Holy Bible to be that Rule the main Point Whereas it was indeed the Point he desir'd to begin with but it was not that which the Boy had mention'd but the inconsistence of Luther about the Sacraments and his pretended Colloquie with the Devil which therefore was in true order to be begun with But in this there is too much Art for the People may be amused by talk about the Copies of the Bible and the Tradition of them and carried into the dark and so be led the more easily by those who with the greatest Confidence call themselves Guides seeing they are not themselves Masters of critical History but they are more capable of more particular Points as Ex. gr of the Communion in one kind which the People can find