Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	authority_n	church_n	expound_v	3,134	5	9.6969	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A57666	The new planet no planet, or, The earth no wandring star, except in the wandring heads of Galileans here out of the principles of divinity, philosophy, astronomy, reason, and sense, the earth's immobility is asserted : the true sense of Scripture in this point, cleared : the fathers and philosophers vindicated : divers theologicall and philosophicall points handled, and Copernicus his opinion, as erroneous, ridiculous, and impious, fully refuted / by Alexander Rosse ; in answer to a discourse, that the earth may be a planet.	Ross, Alexander, 1591-1654.	1646 (1646)	Wing R1970; ESTC R3474	118,883	127

wit That is true which is affirmed by divine authority rather then that which is guessed at by humane infirmity For there he speakes of Philosophicall points which seeme to be contrary to Scripture but you are mistaken when you say that God descends to our capacity in naturall things and conformes his expressions to the mistake of our judgements as he doth apply himselfe to our apprehensions by being represented like a man There is infinite oddes betweene God and naturall things wee that are corporall cannot understand spirituall things much lesse that infinite Spirit but by familiar expressions yet such as doe in some sort represent his attributes to us as he is said to have eyes hands c. by which are signified his knowledge operations c. But for naturall things there was no such necessity because naturall men by natures light are able to understand naturall things so wee know what a circular motion is and if the Earth did truely move we should as soon apprehend the motion of it as we do the Suns motion therefore there was no need why God should descend to our capacity in affirming an untruth because wee cannot understand the Earths motion God then doth not conforme his expressions to the errour of our judgements for our judgements doe not erre in this but he speakes according to the truth of the thing which wee judge and apprehend as it is We apprehend the fire to be hot if you were of an opinion that it were cold which you may as well maintaine as the Earths motion you would doubtlesse tell us that the Scripture in saying the fire is hot applies it selfe to the vulgar errour or mistake of our judgements thus you may make the Scripture to serve you for defence of any absurdity by using such a subterfuge and running into such a starting hole 4. You examine those particular Scriptures which are urged to prove the Suns motion and you tell us that they are spoken in reference to the appearance of things and the false opinions of the vulgar and in the 75. pag. of your Booke you say it is a frequent custome for the holy Ghost to speake of naturall things rather according to appearance and common opinion then the truth it selfe I would 1. know if this consequence be Logicke the holy Ghost speakes of naturall things according to appearance frequently and of some ergo continually and of all or particularly of this to wit the Earths immobility The Scripture oftentimes speakes of God according to mens opinion and capacity as that he is angry that he repents c. Ergo the Scripture speaks still of God thus and so when the Scripture sayes that God is a Spirit or just or infinite or eternall that may be understood if your Logicke be good according to opinion or appearance this will prove a dangerous kind of reasoning 2. Why doth not the holy Ghost tell us in plaine tearmes that the Earth moves if it doth move what end hath hee to tell us that it is immoveable Is it because we are not capable to understand such a high mysterie that is ridiculous For is it a greater mysterie then Christs Incarnation Resurrection Ascension c. which are set downe in plaine tearms but indeed it is no mysterie it 's easie to understand the Earths motion if it did move Or is it because the holy Ghost would not give offence to the world in telling them plainly that the Earth moved being an opinion so repugnant to sense and reason Then doubtlesse he would not have told us that the Sun and Moone stood still at Ioshua's command or that the Sea was divided by Moses Rod and those other miracles of holy Writ as much repugnant to sense and naturall reason as the Earths motion is the holy Ghost useth not to hide or mince the truth for feare of offending men 3. There is great oddes betweene asseverations and allusions betweene the affirmation of a truth and an allusion to a fiction The Scripture speaking of perverse men that will not heare Gods word alludes to the fiction as you call it of the adder stopping his eare ergo when the Scripture speakes of the Earths immobility it speaks according to common opinion A goodly consequence as if you would say the Scripture speakes figuratively of Christ when it calls him a Lamb a Doore a Vine ergo when the Scripture speakes of the beheading of Iohn Baptist it speakes according to common opinion if there be no better Logicke taught in the Universities of the Moone we will never send our Sons thither 3. It is a rule in Saint Austin that we should expound Scripture as the Saints have expounded it before us Quomodo bac verba intellexerunt Sancti sic utique intelligenda sunt But name me that Saint that ever expounded these Scriptures which speake of the Heavens motion and of the Earths immobilitie according to appearance and common opinion Of St. Austins minde was the sixth generall Councell prohibiting any man to interpret Scripture otherwise then the Lights and Doctors of the Church have hitherto expounded them by their writings which Canon is confirmed in the eleventh Session of the third Lateran Councell 5. The ancient Fathers warne us that we doe not deviate or depart from the literall sense of Scripture so long as no absurdity doth follow thereupon now no absurdity doth follow upon the literall sense of the Earths immobilitie but upon your sense and exposition many absurdities follow therefore we must not depart from the literall sense 6. Where the holy Ghost speakes obscurely and figuratively in one place hee doth in another place open himselfe in plaine tearmes as Saint Hierome observes but speaking of the Earths immobilitie he useth still the same phrases neither doth he explaine himselfe otherwise in any one place which doubtlesse hee would have done if he had meant otherwise then hee spoake 7. I absolutely deny that the holy Ghost speakes of naturall things otherwise then in truth and reality and not as you say according to common opinions As for your expositions of these Scriptures which are for us and your instances against our opinion they are wrested and false and impertinent and of no soliditie as we will shew by our answer or reply to each of them severally 1. It is usuall with you to cut your throate with your owne sword and to bring passages against your selfe for you would prove that the Scripture speakes of the Heavens motion in reference onely to the Vulgars false opinion because The Sunne is in his glory like a Bridegroome and in his motion like a Gyant I answer if the Sunne be in his motion like a Gyant then sure the Sunne hath motion for how can that which is not be compared to that which is Similitudes cannot illustrate non entities 2. If the Sun were not a glorious creature David had not compared his glory to without motion he had not compared his motion to the motion

about a hundred years before Pythagoras who live about the time that Brutus was Consul who drove out the Kings as Solinus witnesseth and Tullie Livie saith that he flourished in the time of Servius Tullus Neither doth Plutarch affirme that Numa was scholar to Pythagoras but because their institutions were much alike it was supposed by some saith he that Numa had familiarity with Pythagoras It is true that Numa built a round Temple not in reference to this opinion of the Earths motion as you dreame for he was not of this opinion but in reference to the roundnesse of the world as Plutarch saith And he placed the Vestall fire in the middle not to represent the Sunne in the center of the world that is your glosse but to represent the site of the elementary fire which he conceived to be in the midst of the world 7. Sure Brag is a good dog with you for you tell us that there is scarce any of note or skill who are not Copernicus his followers and more there are of his opinion then all the rest put together and yet you tell us but of one Cardinall Cusanus and sixe more to avoide tediousnesse But in this you speake by the figure Antiphrasis by contraries You name but one Cardinall on your side and within three leaves after you tell us of two Sessions of Cardinalls on our side who condemned this opinion are not twelve more then one and shall not the judgement of so many be preferred to one How many more can you picke out of the whole Colledge of Cardinalls that were of your opinion beside Cusanus who was knowne to be a man that affected singularitie But I think you looked through a multiplying glasse when you concluded from the induction of five Copernicits that there were more of his opinion then all the rest put together Are you not like him who thought that all the ships and goods that came into the Pyreum were his owne And yet of these five which you muster up for your defence there was one even the chiefest and of longest experience to wit Galileus who fell off from you being both ashamed and sorry that he had been so long bewitched with so ridiculous an opinion which was proved to him both by Cardinall Bellarmine and by other grave and learned men that it was contrary both to Scripture Divinitie and Philosophie therefore Galilie on his knees did abjure execrate and detest both by word and writ his errour which you maintaine and promised with his hand on the holy Evangil never to maintaine it againe the other five are men of no great note except in your Bookes 8. You advise us out of Aristotle and Ptolemy to speake that which is most likely to entertaine that which is most agreeable to reason to frame such suppositions of Heaven as be most simple and you tell us that Rheticus and Keplar wish that Aristotle were alive againe But your advice is superfluous and their wish is ridiculous for we speake and intertain that which is most reasonable if we do not prove it that we may amend our errour Our suppositions of Heaven are not so simple as could be wished but we were better content our selves with them then move the earth with you for that is ex fumo in flammam to leap out of the frying-pan into the fire Now to wish Aristotle alive or to thinke that he or Clavius would ever be of your opinion are meere dreames and phancies And though Clavius had found that Ptolomies Hypotheses had not beene so exact as should be yet he would not have beene so mad as to beleeve the Earths motion and the Suns rest And though some have fallen off from Aristotles and Ptolomies opinion to Copernicus that will but little help your cause for in all professions there have ever been some unconstant and giddy-headed men many have fallen off from Christianity to Mahumetisme from Calvinisme to Anabaptisme will you condemne therefore their former professions so some have revolted from Copernicus to Ptolomie You challenge then too great a priviledge when you say that none who having bin once setled with any strong assent on your side that have afterwards revolted from it besides that it is false there was never any profession that could brag of such a priviledge not Christianity the best of all professions And though some men reject that opinion in which they were nursed and have approved for truth and now embrace your absurd Paradox which is condemned in the Schooles yet it will not follow that yours is the righter side for will you say that because many Christians become Turks and Jews many Orthodox men have become Arians Nestorians Eutychians Macedonians that therefore these Heretickes were in the right There are too many wavering Spirits shaken like reeds and carried about like clouds with every winde of doctrine unsetled and instable in all their wayes You tell us that most of those opposers of your opinion have been stirred thereunto either by a partiall conceit of their owne inventions for every one is affected to his owne brood or by a servile feare in derogating from the ancients authoritie or opposing of Scripture Phrases or by judging of things by sense rather then by reason Answ. The first of these reasons will be retorted upon your selfe for the partiall conceit of your owne inventions and the affection you carry to your own brood have made you fall off from that ancient and universall truth to embrace an errour and this was it that moved Copernicus to oppose Ptolomie Alphonsus and the other famous Astronomers Therefore Tycho did not oppose Copernicus to make way for his owne Hypothesis as you say but to maintaine that truth which had so long continued in the world As for your second reason I answer that we should not without extraordinary and urgent cause derogate from the authority of the ancients much lesse from the meaning of Scripture phrase which the Church of God from the beginning hitherto hath delivered to us neither doe we adhere to the meaning of Scripture phrase out of a superstitious feare of the supposed infallible Church as you say but out of a filiall feare to the true Church our Mother the ground and pillar of truth If wee heare not the voice of this Mother we cannot have God for our Father A wise son honoureth his father but he is a foole that will despise his mother Why should we thinke that you or Copernicus can better understand the Scripture phrase then the Church of God from time to time hath done this was the proud conceit of Nestorius that he onely understood the Scripture phrase as Vincentius complaines of him That which you call the new Creed of Pius the Fourth that no man should assent unto any interpretatione of Scripture which is not approved by the ancient Fathers is indeed the old Creed of the Church as Vincentius sheweth let us no wayes no wayes

saith he depart from that sense which our holy Fathers and predecessours have maintained And againe whatsoever saith he the Catholique Church hath of old retained that onely shall a true Catholique maintaine and beleeve therefore he shewes that it is the trick of Heretickes to delight in novelties and to reject and despise old doctrines Us profanis novitat bus gaudeant antiquitatis scit a fastidiant If then the Jesuites in reverence to the Churches authority and to the ancient Fathers doe oppose this opinion they deserve commendation and so did these Cardinals that called it in and punished the defenders of it Thirdly you say that we judge of things by sense rather then by reason but indeed you have no reason to say so for although that sensitive things such as the Earths stability and Sunnes motion are to be judged by sense yet we have many reasons for us whereby we judge it must be so as I have shewed heretofore But I confesse we judge not by your reasons because they are but shadowes of reason and no way satisfactory neither doe we so tie the meaning of Scripture to the letter of it as you say but that we give freedome to raise other senses whether allegoricall tropologicall or anagogicall so they be not repugnant to faith and good manners But in historicall things Saint Austin tells us that we must chiefly adhere to the literall sense and it is a Maxime in the Schooles that we must not reject the literall sense which is not contrary agendis aut credendis to the Creed or the Law neither is it unlawfull to conclude Philosophicall points from the letter of Gods word seeing there is but one truth in Divinitie and Philosophie But to conclude Philosophicall points flat contrary to the letter of divine Scripture as you doe is too much boldnesse therefore I will speake to you in the words of Saint Austin writing of the Philosophers of his time Quicquid de tuis voluminibus his nostris literis contrarium protuleris an t aliqua facultate oftendamus aut nulla dubitatione credamus esse falsissimum Your assertion of the Earths motion is contrary to the letter of the Scripture therefore we doubt not to say is it most false As for our ignorance of your Astronomicall grounds it is excusable seeing your owne ignorance is the cause of it how can the Scholar know if the Master be ignorant himselfe of these Principles which he undertakes to teach or knowes not which way to make them intelligible How can the blinde lead the blinde Non obtusa adeo gestamus pectora We are not so dull but we can understand other Principles but yours being Chimaera's fictions non entities having no other ground but your owne phansie cannot informe our understandings which have entities for their objects 9. No councell hitherto say you have censured this opinion for an Heresie Answ. The Church by her councells doth not presently censure Heresies she knowes best her owne times and seasons and reasons too The Physician doth not alwayes in the beginning of a disease prescribe purging physicke 2. From the Churches forbearance to censure an Heresie you must not conclude the nullitie of an Heresie for the Heresies of Arius Macedonius Euryches and Nestorius were Heresies before they were censured by the four generall Councells And the Church saith Saint Austin suffers and beares with many Heretickes so long as they doe not pertinaciously maintaine nor maliciously to the disturbance of the Church spread abroad their falshoods Quod si fecerint tune pollantur Many are Heretickes in sore Coeli which are not in foro Ecclesie and he is not onely an Hereticke which denieth an Article of the Creed but he also that gain-sayeth any plaine place of Scripture The broacher or maintainer of any false and new opinion is an Hereticke saith Saint Austin 3. Either you have not read or have not observed the censure of Galilies opinion by the councell of Cardinals who not onely call it a false opinion erroneous in the faith a doctrine contrary to the holy Scripture but also in plaine tearmes they call it Heresie 4. When you say that Fromundus calls it a rash opinion bordering upon Heresie that Paul the Third was not so much offended at Copernicus when he dedicated his booke to him that the Fathers of Trent call Epycicles and Eccentrickes but fictions these are such weake helps to support your cause that if you leane on them they will prove no stronger then reeds or cob-webs if I should insist on them I should but discover your weaknesse in alledging of them And likewise your instancing of Shonbergius who importunately begged the Commentaries of Copernicus was is not rather out of curiosity to see how he could defend such an absurd Paradox then out of true affection to embrace it So Herod desired to see Christ I doubt not but many will desire to see your booke of this subject which I dare presume will never be of your opinion Lastly where as you say It is absurd not to assent to any thing in naturall questions but what authority shall allow of I say it were both absurd and dangerous for mens soules and the peace of the Church if men were suffered to assent to any absurditie against Scripture sense reason and the Churches authority CHAP. II. 1. Wee must beleeve the Scripture not our own phansies 2. The Scripture never patronizeth a lye or an error nor doth it apply it self to our capacity in naturall things though it doth in supernaturall mysteries 3. Wee must stick to the literall sense when the Scripture speaks of naturall things 4. Some particular Scriptures vindicated from our adversaries false glosses as namely Psal. 19 of the Suns motion like a Gyant and Bridegroome to the ends of heaven And of his heat Eccles. 1. Of the Suns rising and setting Josh. 12. Of the Sunne standing still of the midst of braven how over Gibeon and how no day like that Esay 38. Of the Sunnes returning tenne degrees of the greatnesse and meaning of this miracle whether knowne to the Gentiles The testimony of Herodotus concerning this IT were happy for us say you if we could exempt Scripture from Phisophicall controversies And I say It were happy for us if all Philosophicall controversies could be decided by Scripture or if men would be so modest as to rest contented with Scripture phrases and expressions of such Philosophicall points as are mentioned there But what hope is there to end controversies when many are so wedded to their own phansies that neither will they yeeld to Scripture except they may have leave to interpret them nor to reasons except they may have leave to forme them nor will they trust their own senses but will captivate and enslave them also to their groundlesse imaginations The Scripture tells us in plaine tearmes the Earth is immoveable our senses doe assure us and many reasons which I have heretofore alledged induce

us to beleeve the truth of this assertion and yet you spurning at Scripture sense and reason as if your phansie were instar omnium would have our judgements senses Scripture Church and all regulated by your absurd dictates therefore it is an unreasonable thing in you to desire that the holy Ghost should not be Judge of his owne assertions in naturall truths and that there should be more credit given to your conceits which you call industry and experience then to Gods own words Indeed this travell hath God left to the sonnes of men to be exercised with as a punishment for their sins to toile and labour all their dayes about shadowes imaginations and indeed meer nothing groping at the doore of knowledge like blinde Sodomites all their dayes and cannot finde it so that they who have spent their whole life in Astronomie may with Saint Peter say on their death bed Master We have laboured all night but have caught nothing Thus with Martha they are busie about many things and neglect that one thing which is onely necessary 2. It is but a conceit of yours to say That the Scripture accommodates it selfe to the vulgars conceit in saying the Sunne riseth and falleth c. I warrant you if the vulgar should conceive that the heavens were made of water as the Gnostickes held or that the Sunne and Moone were two ships with the Manichees or that the world was made of the sweat of the AEones with the Valentinians or whatsoever other absurd opinion they should hold you would make the Scripture say so and to accommodate it selfe to their conceits The stability of the Earth and motion of the Heaven are absurd and false opinions in your conceit and yet the Scripture affirmes them You are as unapt I know to beleeve that the Sunne moves as others are that it stands still therefore it 's a wonder you do not begin to call the Scripture authority in question that affirmes the Suns motion seeing you say men would be apt to doe so if the Scripture had said the Sunne standeth c. How shall the Scripture please both parties if it say the Sun moveth your side will except against it if it say the Sun standeth ours will be offended at it Why should the Scripture be more loath to offend us then you except it be because we are the stronger side and we have our senses to witnesse with us which you have not I wish you would conceive a more reverend opinion of the Spirit of truth who cannot lie nor will affirme a falshood upon any pretence whatsoever neither will he countenance a lie to confirme a truth or speake false in one thing that wee may conceive his meaning the better in another thing He needs not such weake and wicked helps as falshoods to make us understand his will his word is strong and mighty in operation it 's the power of God unto salvation a sharp two edged sword his hammer his scepter c. As it stands not with his truth to affirme a lie so doth it no wayes consist with the power of his Word and Spirit to helpe our understanding by a lie 3. You say That if the Scripture had said the Earth riseth and setteth and the Sunne stands still the people being unacquainted with that secret would not have understood the meaning of it Answ. What matter is it whether they had understood it or not For you tell us that these things are not necessary in themselves and that it is besides the scope of these places to instruct us in Philosophicall points Will you have the holy Ghost then speake a falshood for feare lest we should not understand the meaning of a secret which is not necessary for us to know if it be not needfull for us to know whether the Earth stands or not so it was lesse needfull for the Scripture to say the Earth standeth when it doth not stand But you doe well to call the motion of the Earth a secret for so it is a great secret hid from the wise and prudent of this world and revealed onely to such babes as your selfe But why is this a secret If it be a naturall effect it is no secret for though naturall causes doe not incurre into our senses yet the effects doe and if this be a secret effect and not sensible it cannot be an effect of nature but I thinke it be such another secret as the Philosophers stone which never was and never shall be Though it be beside the chiefe scope of Scripture to instruct us in Philosophicall points yet it will not follow that these Philosophicall tearmes are to be otherwise understood then as they are expressed There be many Geographicall Historicall and Chronologicall passages in Scripture mentioned incidently and not chiefly to instruct us in such points shall we therefore understand them otherwise then they are set downe or rather the cleane contrary way But when you say the Earths motion is beyond our reach I grant it because we cannot reach that which is not made manifest to us either by sense or reason or divine authority If you can either of these wayes make it appeare I doubt not but our understanding will reach it and if you cannot one of these wayes make it appear to us we will account it a meere nothing For idem est non esse non videri and indeed you say well out of the Glosse that God doth not teach curiosities which are not apprehended easily for your motion of the Earth is an incomprehensible curiosity And it is well said by you againe that the Scriptures authority might be questioned if it did teach naturall things contrary to our senses and therefore if any booke of Scripture should affirme as you doe that the earth moves naturally and circularly I should verily beleeve that that booke had never been indicted by the holy Spirit but rather by a Pythagorean spirit or by the spirit of Dutch beer You condemne Tertullians Heretickes for retching Scripture a wrong way and forcing it to some other sense agreeable to their false imagination and rather then they would forgoe their tenents yeelded the Scripture to be erroneous De te fabula narretur You retch the Scripture a wrong way forcing it to your false imaginations you do not indeed call the Scripture erroneous but you make it to speake one thing and meane the cleane contrary therefore you shall doe well to apply Saint Austins counsell to your selfe and doe not settle your opinion rashly on that darke and obscure conceit of the Earths motion It is true also what you alledge out of Saint Austin that the holy Ghost being to deliver more necessary truths left out to speake of the forme or figure of Heaven c. because hee would not have us spend too much time in these things and neglect the meanes of salvation but you should have done well to have subjoined the following words of that same Father to

the heaven And how can any conceive that the second day there was raine below in the aire and that God by the Firmament did separate that raine from the waters of the sea And though I should yeeld that the aire is called heaven sometime Synecdochically and that raine or clouds being in the aire may be said to be in heaven yet I cannot yeeld that therefore they are above the heaven for to be above and to be in differ much therefore I hold with the ancient Doctors of the Church That there be waters above the heaven which is no more incredible saith St. Austine that there may be waters in the upper part of the great world then that there may be waters in a mans head which is the upper part of the little world If wee look saith St. Ambrose 1. On the greatnesse and omnipotency of God in creating the world 2. On his ordinary power in preserving the world sustaining all things by the word of his might by which he holds up the sea that it may not drown the low land 3. On his miraculous power in causing the waters of the Red-sea to stand upon an heap and Iordan to goe back which miracle he made visible that thou mayst beleeve these things which are invisible then why should wee doubt of these waters which be above the heavens If any aske mee what is the nature use or end of those waters and how they are there St. Austine shall answer for me Quomodo aut quales ibi aquae sint c. how or what kind of waters these be is uncertain but that there be waters there wee doubt not because greater is the authority of this Scripture then the capacity of all humane wit 3. When the Scripture speaks of innumerable starres you say that is to be understood according to the vulgar opinion but I say that it is the opinion of the best Learned that they cannot be mumbred even Clavius whom you cite for you confesseth That though Astronomers have reduced the most conspicuous starres to the number of 1022. yet that there are multitudes of starres besides these that cannot be told Hoc nunquam negabo saith hee I will never deny this and hee saith also That God so enlarged Abraham's sight that hee made him see all the starres of heaven If then you looke in a cleare winters night towards the North if you look on the milkie way if you consider the Stars towards the South pole not discernable by us you must confesse that the Scripture speakes properly and not according to vulgar opinion when it saith That the Starres are innumerable therefore saith Saint Austin Whosoever brags that he hath comprehended and set down the whole number of the Starres as Aratus and Eudoxus did Eos libri hujus contemnit authoritas the authority of Scripture contemnes them But when you tell us That the Israelites did farre execed the number of the Starres that is nothing to our purpose besides wee can easily answer that God did not compare Abrahams carnall seed to the Starres but his spirituall seed His carnall seed is compared to the sand and dust and so writes Saint Austin Againe when you have found out the true number of all the Starres then tell us whether they or Abrahams seed be greatest in number 4. You prove that the holy Ghost speakes not exactly of naturall secrets for he sets not downe the exact measure or proportion of Solomons brasen sea Answ. I had thought that a brasen vessel had been the worke of art and not a secret of nature that Geometricall proportions are secrets of nature is a maxime onely in your Philosophie 2. I had said that Iosephus held this sea not to be perfectly round You reply That then the disproportion will be greater and that Scripture which calls it round is to be beleeved before Iosephus I answer that I alledged not Iosephus to preferre him in my beliefe to the Scripture but to shew that there could not be an exact proportion betweene the diameter and the circumference in a vessell not exactly round and yet the Scripture doth not say it was exactly round but onely round Every thing that is called round is not of an exact round figure an egge is called round The Rainbow is said to be round about the Throne And the hills to be round about Ierusalem And children to sit round about the table c. Which you will not say are to be understood of an exact round figure But indeed I know not how to please you if I alledge Scripture you answer that Scripture speakes not exactly of naturall secrets that it accomodates it selfe to the errours of our conceits that it speaks according to the opinion of the vulgar c. If I alledge Iosephus or any other Author then you tell us that Scripture is to be beleeved before Iosephus so that you are more slippery then any eele 3. I had said that the Scripture for brevities sake in numbering used onely to mention the greater number and to omit the letter as Iacobs family were seaventy soules which indeede were seaventy five and many other such passages I alledged You answer that this confirmes your Argument For the Scripture is so farre from speaking exactly of Philosophicall secrets that in ordinary numbering it doth conform to common customs Answ. 1. Shew us that this kinde of numbering was the common custome 2. Will it follow The Scripture doth not exactly number sometimes for brevities sake ergo it never speakes exactly of Philosophicall points 3. If this consequence be good then it will follow that you never speake exactly of Philosophicall points for you sometimes in mentioning of numbers omit the lesser number as when you say seaventy Interpreters whereas there were seaventy two Lastly I answer that there is great oddes betweene an historicall narration of the measure of a vessell as it was taken by the work-men who are not still exact Geometricians and a plaine and constant affirmation of a Philosophicall truth He that wrote the Bookes of the Kings sets down the circumference of the brasen sea to be thirty cubites and the diameter to bee ten for so doubtlesse the measure was taken by the work-men but when the Scripture saith The earth is immoveable it records this as a Philosophicall or Theological maxime and not as an historicall passage Concerning the ends and sides of the earth and of heaven we will speake anon 5. That the earth is founded on the waters is not the opinion of common people but rather the contrary for they are led by sense as you use to say and their sense shewes them that the seas are above the earth and reason will teach them That a lighter body cannot be the foundation of a heavier But you bring a ridiculous reason why some thinke the earth to be upon the water Because when they have travelled as farre as they can they are stopped by the

have the same matter so that as there is a transmutation of the elements into each other even so the heavens may be changed into the elements and these into them heaven may become earth and earth heaven this is your admirable learning which passeth all understanding 4. Heaven it seemes by you hath a contrary but you tell us not what that is they are not contrary to one another as fire and water nor are they contrary to sublunary things for they cherish and preserve them neither have they the same common matter 5. Any sensible man may easily conceive that contrariety and corruption are hinderances to a perpetuall circular motion and because as is said the heaven is not capable of them but the earth is it will follow that I argued upon good grounds that the heavens onely are endowed with all things requisit for motion and not the earth and therefore God will have nothing idle as hee made nothing in vaine hee hath made the heavens and the three superiour elements to be exercised with motion and the lowest element with generation and corruption but it were strange if the earth should be subject to all three and the heavens to none but should stand still and be perpetually idle this is not sutable to the wisdome of the Maker 5. I reasoned that all similary parts are of the same nature with the whole but each part of the earth doth rest in its place therefore doth the whole also You say this Argument would prove That the sea doth not ebbe and flow because every drop of water hath not this motion or that the whole earth is not sphericall because each part hath not the same forme Answ. I have shewed already that the ebbing and flowing of the sea are not essentiall to the sea for in many places the sea doth not ebbe and flow therefore it is no wonder that parts of the sea being severed from the whole lose that motion seeing many parts being joyned with the whole have it not This motion then is caused by externall agents but those qualities which are essentiall to the whole are not lost in the parts Every drop of water is heavy and moves downward because the whole doth every drop of sea water is salt because the whole is 2. I have said already that the earth is not exactly sphearicall and though it were your conceit is nothing for roundnesse belongs not to the earth quà talis as it is earth sed quà tota as it is whole When a thing ceaseth to be whole it loseth the figure of the whole neither are external figures or outward qualities essential to things but common accidents onely Now the qualitie of resting in the lowest place is essentiall to the whole earth therefore to the parts also 6. I said that the Sun in the world is as the heart in mans body but the motion of the heart ceasing none of the members stirre so neither would there be motion in the world if the Sun stood still This you say is rather an illusturation then a proof I grant it for I used it as an illustration to discover with its light the weaknesse and to dispell the darknesse of your opinion And were it not an absurd thing to think that the arteries move but the heart standeth still So no lesse absurd is it to say that the Earth moveth but the Sunne standeth still 2. Illustrations oftentimes are forcible proofs and used they are both by Divines and Philosophers 7. I said that the Sun and heavens work upon these inferiour bodies by their light and motion You say That the Sun and Planets working upon the earth by their owne reall daily motion is the thing in question therefore must not be taken for a common ground Answ. If nothing shall be taken for a common ground which is or hath been in question then there are no common grounds in Divinity and Philosophy for I know no fundamentall doctrine in the one or principall in the other which hath not been questioned by wanton and unsettled spirits 2. I said that the heavens work by motion you inferre as if I had said of a reall daily motion I spake neither of daily nor annuall motion if hee doth not work by his daily doth hee work by his annuall revolution 3. Tell mee if you can from whence proceed the many motions and mutations that are in sublunary things from themselves they cannot from a superior cause then they must and what is that but the heavens and what other media or meanes are in heaven by which they work but light and motion If you can tell us any other besides these wee will be beholding to you 8. I proved that the earth must be firme and stable because it is the foundation of buildings You say That it is firme from all jogging and uncertaine motions Answ. This is a jogging conceit of yours and an uncertain answer as I have shewed already for motion as it is motion is an enemy to buildings be it never so uniforme and a moving foundation can be no settled foundation If a foundation be stable how can it move if it move how can it be stable 9. My ninth Argument was taken from the authority of Divines grounded on Scripture Thy Sun shall no more goe downe c. In the Revelations the Angel sweares there shall be no more time therefore the heavens must rest whose motion is the measurer of time so S. Paul saith The creature is subject to vanity this is the vanity of motion of which Solomon speaks The Sun riseth and the Sun goeth downe c. This you say is but a weake Argument for it is granted that this opinion is a Paradoxe Answ. As it deviates from the opinion of other men it is a Paradoxe but as it is repugnant to Scripture it is a Cacodoxe 2. When you say that Isaiah speaketh of that light which shall be in stead of the Sun and Moon doe you answer any thing at all to his testimony Thy Sun shall no more goe downe c. for hee distinguisheth between that light which God shall give to his Saints and the light of the Sun which shall no more goe downe so that hee doth not confound these two lights which are in God and in the Sun as you would have it A part of the Churches happinesse shall be that shee shall both enjoy the light of the Sun without intermission and also that new inaccessible light of divine vision If then the Sun shall goe downe no more it argues that the Sun useth to goe downe Now if you will have these words understood mystically yet the thing to which they doe allude must be understood properly to wit the going down of the Sun 3. You will have time to be measured by the motion of the earth not of the heaven and this you prove out of Pererius who saith That time depends upon the motion and succession of any duration But