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scripture_n	authority_n	church_n	err_v	2,923	5	9.8588	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A18690	A mirrour of Popish subtilties discouering sundry wretched and miserable euasions and shifts which a secret cauilling Papist in the behalfe of one Paul Spence priest, yet liuing and lately prisoner in the castle of Worcester, hath gathered out of Sanders, Bellarmine, and others, for the auoyding and discrediting of sundrie allegations of scriptures and fathers, against the doctrine of the Church of Rome, concerning sacraments, the sacrifice of the masse, transubstantiation, iustification, &c. Written by Rob. Abbot, minister of the word of God in the citie of Worcester. The contents see in the next page after the preface to the reader. Perused and allowed.	Abbot, Robert, 1560-1618.	1594 (1594)	STC 52; ESTC S108344	245,389	257

of eating and drinking Iob. 6. are not to be vnderstood properly but by a figure sect 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 30. That the Doctours of the Romish church by the defence of Transubstantiation haue bene driuen to most impious and damnable questions and assertions sect 29. That the place of the Gospell Luc. 22. 20. which they so much cauil vpon out of the Greeke maketh nothing at all for Transubstantiation as by diuerse other reasons so by the confession Bellarmine himselfe sect 31. That the assumption of the virgin Mary is a meere fable sect 33. That the Church hath no authoritie after the Apostles to authorize any scriptures and that we seclude no other bookes from the canon of the bible then the old church did sect 34. How wickedly the Papists deale in mangling and martyring the writings of the Fathers sect 35. That our doctrine of iustification before God by faith onely is the verie trueth which both the scriptures and out of them the Fathers haue manifestly taught that it maketh nothing against good workes that the place of S. Iames cap. 2. maketh nothing against it sect 36. May it please thee gentle Reader first of all to take notice of these two places of Chrysostome Gelasius which haue bene the occasion of all this controuersie for thy better satisfaction I haue noted them both in English and Latin though otherwise to auoyd both tediousnesse of writing and vnnecessarie charges of printing I haue thought good to set downe the places alleaged onely translated into English The place of Chrysostome against the vse of water in the cup of the Lords table CVius rei gratia non aquam sed vinum post resurrectionem bibit Chrysost in Math. hom 83. Perniciosam quandam haeresin radicitùs euellere voluit eorum qui aqua in mysterijs vtuntur Ita vt ostenderet quia quando hoc mysteriū tradidit vnum tradidit etiam post resurrectionem in nuda mysterij mensae vino vsus est Exgenimine ait vitis quae certè vinum non aquam producit In English thus But why did Christ after his resurrection drinke not Water but Wine He would plucke vp by the rootes a certaine pernicious heresie of them which vse water in the Sacrament So that to shew that when he deliuered this Sacrament he deliuered wine euen after his resurrection also he vsed wine at the bare table of the Sacrament Of the fruite of the vine saith he which surely bringeth foorth wine and not water The place of Gelasius against Transubstantiation CErtè sacramenta quae sumimus corporis sanguinis Christi diuina Gelasius cont Eutych Nestor res est propter quod per eadem diuinae efficimur consortes naturae tamen esse non desiuit substantia vel natura panis vini Et certe imago similitudo corporis sanguinis Christi in actione mysteriorum celebrantur Satis ergò nobis euidenter ostenditur hoc nohis in ipso Christo domino sentiendum quod in eius imagine profitemur celebramus et sumimus vt sicut in haenc scilicet in diuinam transeunt sancto spiritu perficiente substantiam permanent tamen in suae proprietate naturae sic illud ipsum mysterium principale cuius nobis efficientiam virtutemque veracitèr repraesentant ex quibus constat propriè permanentibus vnum Christum quia integrum verumque permaenere demon strant In English thus Verily the Sacraments which we receiue of the bodie and blood of Christ are a diuine thing by reason whereof we also by them are made partakers of the diuine nature and yet there ceaseth not to be the substance or nature of bread and wine And surely an image or esemblance of the bodie and blood of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries It is therefore euidently inough shewed vnto vs that we must thinke the same in our Lord Iesus Christ which we professe celebrate and receiue in his image that as these namely the bread and wine do by the working of the holie Ghost passe ouer into a diuine substance and yet continue in the proprietie of their owne nature so they shew that that principall mysterie the efficiencie vertue wherof these do represent vnto vs doth abide one Christ because whole and true those natures properly remaining whereof he doth consist M. Spence hauing had my bookes to peruse these places sent me in writing this answere to them SIr I right hartily thanke you for the willing minde you hau● towards me Truly I should be verie vnkinde if I knew m● selfe vnaffectioned to so much good will I am in prison and pouertie otherwise I should be some way answerable to your friendlinesse In the meane season good will shall be readie for good will Touching the words of S. Chrysostome He would plucke vp by the rootes a certaine pernicious heresie of them which vse water in the Sacrament c. Read the 32. Canon of the sixth Councell holden at Constantinople and there you shall find vpon what occasion this golden mouth did vtter these words and not only that but also mention of S. Iames and S. Basils masse or sacrifice left to the church in writing The words of the Canon begin thus Because we know that in the country of the Armenians wine onely is offered at the holie table c. The heresie therefore against which he wrote was of the a Vntruth For neither doth Chrysostome intimate any thing against the Armenians or such as vse wine only neither was it heresie in thē that did so Armenians and the Aquarians the first whereof would vse onely wine the other onely water in the holie mysteries Against which vse being so directly against both the scriptures and custome of the primitiue church he wrote the same which he saith of pernicious heresie as before I cannot doubt of your hauing the Councels or some of them Your other booke conteining the words of Gelasius I wil not yet answere being printed at Basil where we suspect many good works to be corrupted abused But if it proue so to be yet the whole faith of Christs church in that point may not be reproued against so many witnesses of scriptures and fathers b Neither scripture not Father auoucheth the contrarie auouching the contrarie Nay what words should Christ haue vsed if he had meant to make his bodie blood of the bread and wine as we say he did other then these This is my bodie which shall be giuen c. And gaine for this is my blood of the new Testament which shal be shead for many for remission of sinnes Marke well the speeches and they be most wonderfull as most true All the world and writings therein c The Gospell it selfe is sufficient to perswade him that will be perswaded ●nforming vs of a true and naturall bodie of Christ and not of a fantasticall bodie in the fashion quantitie of a wafer cake cannot

not that because Christ taking y● bread said thereof This is my bodie therefore the bread was turned into his bodie And this is so good Logicke that diuerse great maisters of his side haue plainly confessed that the wordes of the Gospell notwithstanding the aforesaid consent do not enforce Transubstantiation as I told him before and he answereth nothing to it Yea Bellarmine himselfe who hath taken vpon him to be the Atlas of Popery at this time after that he hath sweat and trauailed to proue it by the scripture when he hath all done is content to confesse so much For being vrged that Scotus and Cameracensis do say that there is no so expresse place of scripture that it can enforce to admit of Transubstantiation he answereth a Bellar. tom 2. contr 3. li 3. cap. 23. This indeed is not altogither vnlikely For although the scripture which I haue alleaged before seeme to vs so cleare that it is able to force a man that is not ouerthwart yet whether it be so or not it may worthily bee doubted for that most learned sharpe witted men such as Scotus especially was do thinke the contrary It is sufficient for our discharge that the Iesuit confesseth that it may iustly be doubted whether Transubstantiation may be proued by the scripture or not and that it is likely that indeed it cannot The matter then is come to this passe that Transubstantiation must be beléeued because of the authoritie of the Church of Rome but otherwise that it cannot be prooued by the authoritie of the scripture But we dare not trust the Church of Rome so farre as to receiue any doctrine of her without the warrant of the scripture For we are of Chrysostomes minde b Chrisost in Psal 95. If any thing saith he be spoken without scripture the minde of the hearer halteth or hangeth in suspense But when there commeth out of the scripture the testimony of the voyce of God it confirmeth both the minde of the hearer and the words of the speaker They must prooue it vnto vs by the scripture or else wee cannot bee assured of it But they cannot agrée how to expounde the wordes of scripture for it and the scripture it selfe is manifestly against it Christ saith This is my bodie The word This doth demonstrate and point to somewhat And what may that be One of them saith one thing and another saith another thing in fine they cannot tell So that we must suppose that Christ said This I know not what is my bodie Bellarmine commeth after all the rest to resolue the matter and he telleth vs that we must vnderstand it thus c Bellar. tom 2 cont 3 lib. 1. ca. 10. 11. This that is conteined vnder the formes is my bodie But the question is the same againe what is that conteined vnder the formes To say it is the bodie before all the words of consecration be spoken they themselues will not allow But except the bodie it can be nothing else but bread It is bread therefore to which the word This is referred perforce must the words be thus taken This bread is my body which again must néeds haue this meaning This bread is the signe and Sacrament of my bodie and consequently ouerthrow Transubstantiation Moreouer what Christ brake bid his Disciples take and eate that they did take and eate It was bread which he brake and bid them take and eate for the words of consecration were not yet spoken Therfore it was bread which they did take and eate But that which they did eate Christ called his bodie Therefore Christ called bread his bodie and meant This bread is my bodie So likewise as touching the other part of the Sacrament we say that what Christ willed them to drinke that they did drinke But Christ willed them to drinke wine saying Drinke ye all of this and this was wine because there was yet no consecration Therfore they did drinke wine That which they did drinke Christ called his blood The words therefore of Christ must be thus meant This wine is my blood And so he expoundeth himselfe immediatly when he calleth it This frute of the vine shewing hereby to what we must referre the word This when he saith This is my blood namely to the frute of the vine that is to say wine To auoyd these things thus plainly gathered from the circumstances of the text many blind shifts haue bene deuised but one especially most worthy to be noted d Tho. Aquin. pag. 3. q. 78. art 1. that the Euangelists doe not report these matters of the institution of the Sacrament in that order as they were spoken and done by our Sauiour Christ Thus to serue their turne the Euangelists must be controlled and vpon their word we must beléeue that these things are not so orderly set downe as the matter required I might adde hereunto how the scripture vsually calleth the Sacrament c Act. 20. 7. 1. Cor. 10. 16. 11. 26. 27. 28 bread euen after consecration in the breaking distributing and eating thereof then which what should we require more to assure vs that in substance it is bread indéede And of this spéech they can giue no certaine reason neither but are carried vp and downe from fancie to another as appeareth by Lanfrancus saying f Lanfran lib. de sacram Euchar● It is called bread either because it was made of bread and retaineth some qualities therof or because it feedeth the soule or because it is the bodie of the sonne of God who is the bread of Angels or in some other maner which may be conceiued of them that are better learned but cannot of me They care not what they say it is so that they grant it not to be that that it is in truth But thus do they deserue to be led vp and down from errour to errour and follie to follie as it were after a dauncing fire who refuse to be guided and directed by the cleare and shining light of the euident word of God By this that hath bene said it may appeare sufficiently how litle hold the Answ hath in the consent of the Euange lists for the proofe of his Transubstantiation euen by the confession of his owne fellowes to whose wisedome and learning he doth greatly trust But yet once againe to proue it by the Gospell we haue another argument wherein the Answ as a sawcie fellow taketh vpon him to censure controll M. Beza and M. Fulke in a matter of Gréeke construction as he did M. Caluin and B. Iewell in other matters before But what may it be that he presumeth so much on Forsooth the Gréeke in Luc. 22. is so plaine against our doctrine and for proofe of Transubstantiation that Beza was greatly troubled there with and was faine to say that either S. Luke spake false Gréeke or else that somewhat was foisted into the text This argument Gregory Martin and others haue runne out of breath

A Mirrour of Popish SVBTILTIES Discouering sundry wretched and miserable euasions and shifts which a secret cauilling Papist in the behalfe of one Paul Spence Priest yet liuing and lately prisoner in the Castle of Worcester hath gathered out of Sanders Bellarmine and others for the auoyding and discrediting of sundrie allegations of scriptures and Fathers against the doctrine of the Church of Rome concerning Sacraments the sacrifice of the Masse Transubstantiation Iustification c. Written by Rob. Abbot Minister of the word of God in the Citie of Worcester The contents see in the next Page after the Preface to the Reader Perused and allowed TC VIRESSIT VVLNERE VERITAS LONDON Printed by Thomas Creede for Thomas Woodcocke dwelling in Paules Church-yard 1594. TO THE MOST REVEREND FATHER IN GOD THE L. Archbishop of Canterbury his Grace Primate and Metrapolitane of all England and to the right reuerend Father in God the L. Bishop of Worcester R. A. wisheth all abundance of grace and peace with euerlasting life REuerend Fathers it may seeme perhaps some presumptiō in me to be thus bold to vse your LL. names for the countenancing of this Pamphlet which neither for the matter of it nor for the occasion may seeme worthy of the notice or sight of so graue and learned Fathers Notwithstanding being drawne to the publication hereof partly by the importunity of aduersaries partly by the desire and expectation of friends I thought it very requisite both in respect of the cause it selfe and in respect of mine owne priuate dutie to offer these my simple labours to the protection of your LL. The matter hereof in the beginning was only priuate betwixt my selfe and a Romish Priest one Paul Spence deteined as then in the Castle of Worcester now I know not vpon what occasion liuing at his libertie abroad But when by speech and report it was drawne to occasion of publicke scandall the aduersary bragging in secret of a victory and others doubting what to thinke thereof because they saw not to the contrary I iudged it necessary after long debating deliberating with my selfe to let all men see how litle reason there was of any such insolent tryumph supposing that it might be turned vppon mee for a matter of iust reproofe and blame if my concealing hereof should cause any disaduantage to the truth or any discredite of that Ministery seruice which vnder your LL. I execute in the place where I am Now I must professe that my thus doing is only for the Citie of Worcester and others thereabout for their satisfaction in this cause wherein I know many of them haue desired to be satisfied Your LL. are both by speciall occasion affectioned to the place I know my paines shal be the better accepted with them if it shall be vouchsafed your LL. gracious and fauourable acceptation Moreouer the fauour which I haue receiued of both your LL of the one in commending mee to the place where I am of the other in yeelding me speciall patronage eountenance therein hath bound me to yeeld vnto you these my first frutes though but as a handful of water yet a testimony of my dutifull and thankfull minde And if it shall finde no other cause to be liked of yet in this I doubt not but it shall be approued that it is a iust defense of truth against the vaine cauillations of error The speciall drift of my writing is to approue concerning the matters that are heere in hand our faithful vpright dealing in alleaging the Fathers against the doctrine of the church of Rome Whose proctors for a time vsed the name of the catholick church as a fray-bug to terrifie al mē from speaking against them But when they were perforce vrged to the scriptures they cryed out that wee expounde the scriptures amisse and otherwise then the auncient Fathers did vnderstand them Being further pressed with the testimonies and authorities of the auncient Fathers they stil notwithstanding exclaime that wee abuse them also and alleage them to other purpose then euer they entended A strange matter that the plaine words both of the scriptures and of the Fathers being so expresly for vs yet their meaning and purpose as these men pretend should be altogither against vs. But whilest they endeuour to iustifie this either open exclamation or priuie whispering it is strange to see how strangely and madly they deale a Eccl. 19. 24. There is saith the wise man a subtiltie that is fine but it is vnrighteous and there is that wresteth the open and manifest lawe Verily there is nothing so euident nothing so manifest but these men haue a speciall facultie to turne it out of the way that it would goe and by a distinction of this maner and that maner to set a meaning vppon it which neuer came into the meaning of him that wrote it In which practise and occupation it falleth out with them which Ireneus sayd of the heretickes of his time b Iren lib. ● cap. 1● There is none perfect amongst them but such a one as doth not ably cogge and lye Indeed lyes cannot be defended but by lying and false gloses must serue to maintaine false and erroneous assertions Which is not a litle to be seen in this libell or pamphlet which I haue here to refute the Authour whereof taketh vpon him lyke a cunnyng Alcumist to turne euery thing into what he list as if he supposed vs to be men bewitched and transformed into beastes sticketh not to make such constructions of the scriptures and Fathers sayings as no man that hath but the common reason and vnderstanding of a man can but see to bee leaudly and vnreasonably deuised Wherat I should the lesse maruell if they were only this mans deuise I would impute this folly to him onely But now hee hath taken the most of them out of their learned Treatises forsooth to which he oft referreth me as if they were the Oracle of all truth So that the spirit of this phrensie and madnesse goeth through the heades of them all whereby it commeth to passe that they take delight in those things which they cannot but know to be absurd That their maisters know so much it seemeth to vs apparant for that they forbid their scholers and followers to be acquainted with any of our writings wherein theyr absurdities and falshoods are layd open and wheras we in answearing them propose both theirs and ours indifferently to all men to be iudged of they giue their pupils some libertie to read their bookes but it is damnation for them to touch any of ours Such schollers would be suspicious of such maisters but that they are maruellously blinded with preiudice and selfe will Now as many other by other occasions so I the least of all by occasion offered to me haue taken vpon me for this present matter to shew I will not say how vainly fondly but wickedly and vnshamefastly they deale in peruerting they call it answering

again in this mysterie his flesh suffereth for the saluation of the people and Cyprian We sticke to the crosse we sucke the blood and fasten our tongues within the wounds of our redeemer and Chrysostome againe Good Lord the iudge himselfe is led to the iudgement seat the creator is set before the creature he which cannot be seene of the angels is spitted at by a seruant he tasteth gall and v●neger he is thrust in with a speare he is put into a graue c. In which maner of speaking S. Hierome saith Happie is he in whose heart Christ is euerie day borne and againe Christ is crucified for vs euerie day and S. Austen Then is Christ slaine vnto Aug. ouaes● Euan. li 2. q. 33. euery man when he beleeueth him to haue bene slaine Doe you thinke that these thinges are really done in the Sacrament as the words sound that Christ indeed suffereth dieth is burted that we cleaue to his crosse c S. Austen telleth you The offering of the De cons dist 2. cap. Hoc est flesh which is performed by the hands of the priest is called the passion death and crucifying of Christ not in the truth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie Séeing then the passion of Christ is the sacrifice which we offer and the passion of Christ is to be vnderstood in the Sacrament not in the truth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie it followeth that that sacrifice is likewise ●o to be vnderstood not in the truth of the thing but in a signifying mysserie and therefore that the sacrifice which you pretend is indéed sacriledge as I haue termed it and a manifest derogation from the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice vpon his crosse As touching the matter of Transubstantiation I alleaged vnto G●las cont ●u y●h N●st you the sentence of Ge●as●●● Bishop of Rome There ceaseth not to be the substance or nature of bread and wine You answere me first that you suspect it to be corrupted by some of ours There is no cause M. Spence of that suspitiō but the shamelesse dealing of some leaud varlets of your side is notorious that way and infamous through all the Church of God Your owne clerkes cannot deny the truth of this allegation as they do not of many other sayings of the auncient Fathers as plainly contrary to your positions as this is Albeit Index Expurg in censura Bertrami they practise therein that which they professe in the Index Expurgatorius where they say In the old Catholicke Doctors we beare with many errours and we extenuate them excuse them by some deuised shift do oftentimes deny them and faine a conuenient meaning of them when they are opposed vnto vs in disputations or in contention with our aduersaries Indéed without these pretie shifts your men could finde no matter whereof to compile their answers But being taken for truly alleaged you say yet the whole faith of Christs Church in that point may not by his testimony be reproued against so many witnesses of scriptures and Fathers to the contrarie Whereas you should remember that Gelasius was Bishop of Rome that what he wrote he wrote it by way of iudgement and determination against an hereticke and therfore by your owne defence could not erre And if it had bene against the receiued faith of the Catholicke Church in those daies the heretickes against whom he wrote would haue returned it vpon him to his great reproach But he spake as other auncient Fathers had done before him as Theodor. dial 1. Theodoret He which called himselfe a vine did honour the visible elements and signes with the name of his bodie and blood not changing their nature but adding grace vnto nature And againe The Dial. 2. mysticall signes after consecration do not go from their own nature for they continue in their former substance figure and forme c. chrysost ad caesarium Monach August apud ●edam in 1. cor 10. Chrysostome thus Before the bread be consecrated we call it bread but the grace of God sanctifying it by the ministerie of the priest it is freed frō the name of bread is vouchsafed the name of the Lords bodie although the nature of bread remaine in it Austen thus That which you see is bread and the cup which your eyes also do tell you De consect dist 2 cap. ●oc est But as touching that which your faith requireth for in ●ructiō bread is the bodie of Christ and the cup is his blood And againe This is it which we say which by all meanes we labour to approue that the sacrifice of the Church consisteth of two things the visible forme of the elements and the inuisible flesh and blood of our Lorde Iesus Christ of the Sacrament and the matter of the Sacrament that is the bodie of Christ And that you may not take that visible forme of the elements for your emptie formes and accidentes without substance which and many other things your Censours aboue-named say The latter age of the Church subtilly and truly added by the holie Index Expurgat in censura Bertrami Ghost confessing thereby that these Popish sub●ilties were not knowne at all to the auncient Fathers take withall that which he addeth Euen as the person of Christ consisteth of God and man for that Christ is true God true man because euery thing conteineth the nature and truth of those things whereof it is made By which rule you may vnderstand also the saying of Irenee The Eucharist Iren. lib. 4. cap. 34. consisteth of two things an earthly and a heauenly namely so as that it conteineth the nature and truth of them both By these places and many other like it is euident that albeit in this Sacrament there is yéelded vnto the faith of the receiuer the bodie and blood of Christ and the whole power and vertue thereof to euerlasting life yet there ceaseth not to be the substance nature and truth of bread and wine Which is the purport of Gelasiu● his words By the Sacraments which we receiue of the bodie and blood of Christ we are made partakers of the diuine nature and yet there ceaseth not to be the subsance or nature of bread and wine The force of which words and of the wordes of Theodoret you shall perceiue the better if you know how they are directed against Eutyches the hereticke The hereticke in Theodorets Dialogues by a comparison drawen from Dial. ● the sacrament wold shew how the bodie of Christ after his assumption into heauen was swallowed vp as it were of his diuinitie and so Christ ceased to be truly man As said he the bread and wine before the blessing are one thing but after the blessing become another and are changed so the bodie or humanitie of Christ whereby he was truly man before is after-his ascension glorification changed into the substance of God But Theodoret answereth him Thou art

reply And as for the praier for the dead which p Epiphan haere 75. Epiphanius defendeth against Aerius it was no such as Papists now teach not only for that it was vsed as a testimony of their beliefe that the dead were not vtterly perished but liued with the Lord whereas Papists defend it only in behalfe of them that are in Purgatory but also that it was vsed q Ibid. for the Patriarches Prophets Apostles c. to put difference betwixt Christ and all other men by the honor which is done to him whilest he only is acknowledged to be perfectly iust is worshipped praied vnto al others acknowledged to be such y● they were to be praied for Wheras the church of Rome now praieth not for Saints but praieth vnto them so yéeldeth vnto them that honor which the ancient Church reserued as a special prerogatiue to Christ alone Now as touching this maner of praying for Apostles Prophets Martyres c. which I mentioned the Answ saith nothing at all Only to no purpose he bringeth a spéech of Chrysostom to proue that there was in his time praier for the forgiuenesse of the sinnes of the dead But doe those wordes serue for exposition of that which I alleaged out of Chrysostomes Liturgie If they do then he must say that that reasonable seruice was offered for the sinnes of the blessed virgin If not then were they idlely brought in For I alleaged that spéech as taken from the auncient vse of the Church long before Chrysostoms time which because it importeth only thankesgiuing therefore giueth sufficie●t cause to thinke that in the beginning they vsed only commemoration thankesgiuing for the faithfull dead in Christ howsoeuer by litle and litle through the subtiltie of Montanus his heresie there was added to 〈…〉 ither in Chrysostoms time or before such praiers as he speaketh of and offering● for the be 〈…〉 site of the dead That Chrysostom hath somwhat tending heretal i●●as not denied r Mat. 19. 8. but it is sufficient for our defence that I frō the beginning it was not so And yet that praying for the forgiuenesse of the si●● of the dead if there be nothing more said by Chrysostome maketh nothing for Popish praier for the dead For this resteth only vpon Purgatory torments and is not intended for any other purpose but for deliuerance from thence whereas it plainly appeareth by the supposed Dionysius that the auncienter Church praied in that sort for them of whom notwithstanding they were assured ſ Dionys Areo ●ccles hierarch cap. vltimo that they were come to rest that they were blessed and happie that they were not chaunged to worse but to better state then they had here that they were now compartners with the Saintes which had bene before from the beginning of the world and therefore in so praying thought of nothing losse then Purgatory paines The saying of S. Austen which the Answ vrge this thus t August Ench●r ca. 110. The sacrifices of the altar or of whatsoeuer almes when they are offered for all the dead that haue bene baptised are thankesgiuings for such as are verie good for such as are no● verie bad they are propitiations or attonements for those that are verie bad they are though no benefit to the dead yet some kinde of comfort to the liuing The first part of which wordes confirmeth that which I said before of the auncient custome not of praying but of thankesgiuing for he faithfull departed in Christ In the other two he yéelded too much to those superstitions which tradition and later custome had brought in without the word of God whilest being busied in matters of greater waight and importance he omitted throughly to examine and trie his opinion in this point with the true and euen w●ights of the same word Whereas the Answ telleth me that by this meanes we make no bodie of S. Austen I answere him concerning Austen as Austen himselfe answered the Donatists concerning Cyprian u August cont cresco lib. 2. ca. 31. 32. We do no iniury to him when we distinguish any writings of his from the authoritie of the holy scriptures Whatsoeuer therein agreeth to the authoritie of the scriptures we receiue it with his commendation but what agreeth not therto by his leaue we refuse it and as the s 〈…〉 e Austen answered also to the Pelagians concerning Ambrose w Idem de grat christi cont pel Cele li. 1. c. 23 He was a learned and godlie man but not to be compared to the authority of the Canonical scriptures Shall we be said to make no 〈◊〉 of Dauid because we refuse to follow him in cōmitting adultery and murthers or of Peter because we will not deny Christ or cause the Gentiles to play the Iewes or of Iohn because we will not fall downe and worship an Angell or of Cyprian because we will not yéeld to his errour of rebaptising x August cont Cresco lib. 1. cap. 32 li. 2. cap 32. de vnico bapt cont Petil. ca 13 cont Gandent li. 2. cap. 23. surely as we account our selues incomparably inferiour to these renowmed and famous seruants of God and yet refuse to follow them in that which they thought and did amisse so we attribute excéeding much to Austen we admire his learning we honour his labours we estéeme of his iudgement and yet with that libertie whereunto the Lord hath called vs we deny to follow him in this whereof we cannot haue our consciences assured by the vndoubted warrant of the word of God And as lawfull we hold it for our selues so to do in this point as for the Papists to reiect his y August de bono viduitatis ca. ● ●0 11 sound iudgement of the vnlawfulnesse of dissoluing breaking such marriages as are contracted after vow and protestation of single life But as touching the matter in hand of propitiation attonement for sinne we holde fast that which S. Iohn teacheth vs and g●e no farther z 1. Ioh. 2. 2. We haue an aduocate with the father Iesus Christ the iust and he is the propitiation for our sinnes We beléeue no other merit of the forgiuenesse thereof but only his passion and death in the participation whereof whosoeuer dieth we assure rur selues he is immediatly receiued into Paradise with Iesus Christ euen as was a Luc. 23. 43. Cypr. de caena domini ad finem the théefe who vpon the Crosse began to beleeue in Iesus Christ And to this purpose I oppose against that thrée-membred diuision of Austen another of his consisting only of two parts b ●ugust in Io● ●ract 49. All soules when they goe out of this worlde haue their diuers places of receipt The good haue ioy the euill haue torment But when the resurrection shall come both the ioy of the good shall be greater and the torments of the euill shall be more grieuous when as they shall be tormented

and breaking him as the Prophet speaketh and as it were leading out his armies against him he in the meane time holding fast still vpon God to be his God who would bring him backe from these gates of death when he had finished the worke that was giuen him to doe but yet féeling nothing for the present whereby he might appeare to be his God But what can I say more of this spéech of Christ then Ferus hath said a man by profession of the church of Roome yet in many things not so grosse as Romanists commonly are Writing vppon these wordes of Christ he saith thus r Ferus in Matt 27. Here God the father dealeth with Christ not as a father but as a tyrant although hee be in the meane time of most louing affection towardes him This Christes being forsaken is the dread of our conscience for our sinnes feeling the iudgement of God and his eternall wrath and is so affected as if it were for euer forsaken and reiected from the face of God Christ of his mercie put himselfe into our cause and vndertooke the punishment that we had deserued Therefore on the one side wee see the people reuiling him the Pharisees blaspheming him c. On the other side we see God as an aduersarie forsaking him so that he crieth out why hast thou forsaken me Christ to deliuer sinners set himself in place of all sinners not playing the theefe or adulterer c but transferring vnto himself the stipend and wages the punishment and desert of sinners as colde heate hunger thirst feare trembling the horrour of death the horrour of hell despaire death hell it self that by feare he might ouercome feare by horrour despaire death hell might ouercome horror despaire death hell and in a word by Satan might ouercome Satan Thus by the testimonie of one of their own Prophets it is iustified that Christ Iesus suffered not onely a bodily death but also in his soule the waight of his fathers indignation and the very horrour of hell it selfe when he cried out and complained in that maner as hath béen declared And this is that which the scripture meaneth when it saith that ſ Gal. 3. 13. Christ was made a curse for vs to deliuer vs from the curse For as to be made sinne for vs importeth that he did beare the punishment of our sinnes so to be made a curse for vs importeth that he did beare the burden of our curse that is to say the full measure of the wrath of God that otherwise should haue lighted vpon vs. The fathers thought no lesse when they construed the 88. Psalme or the 87. as they reckon it to be the description of the passion of Christ Where we reade thus t Psal 88. 7. 1. 16. Thine indignation is set against me or lieth hard vppon me and thou hast vexed me with all thy stormes Lord why abhorrest thou my soule Thy wrathfull displeasure goeth ouer me and the feare of thee hath vndone me So is that Psal applied by u Athan. de interpret Psalm Arnob. Hieron in psal 87. Athanasius Arnobius and Hierome Austen also calleth the same w August in Psalm 87. a song of the passion of Christ though turning the wordes alleaged to another intention then they doe manifestly intimate vnto vs. Athanasius referring himselfe to those wordes Thy furie or indignation is set against me saith x Athanas de inter Psal Christ died not for that he was guiltie of sinnne himself but he suffered for vs and in himselfe did beare the wrath that was conceiued against vs for sinne euen as he saith elswhere y Idem in Euangel de pas cruce domi that he took the bitternesse of that wrath which arose by the transgression of the law and swallowed it vp and so made it void So z Hieron in Psal 87. Hierome bringeth in our Sauiour speaking out of these former wordes of the Psalme in this sort Thou hast brought vpon me that wrath and storme of thy furie and indignation which thou wouldst haue powred out vpon the nations because I haue taken vpon me their sinnes Yea Hilarie though a Hilar. de Trinit lib 10. elswhere in heate of contention with an hereticke he séeme vtterly to denie all passion and suffering of Christ whose verie opinion in effect I take it to be which b Ambros in Luc. cap. 22. lib. 10. S. Ambros reprooueth writing vpon Luke yet in his more aduised spéech of Sermon vpon one of the Psalmes he giueth a notable testimony to this trueth Christ c Hilar. in Psa 68. became subiect to the death of the Crosse the waters comming in euen vnto his soule when the violence of all sufferings beake forth euen to the death of the soule By and by after he sheweth his mind more plainly He descended euen to the depth not of the flesh only but of death it self and al the terror of that tempest which raged against vs lighted vpon him Thus therfore it is euident both by the authoritie of the scriptures and by the consent of the ancient fathers that Christ suffered for vs not only in body but also in soule that his suffering in soule was the enduring of the vttermost of that tempest of the wrath of God which should haue fallen vpon vs for sinne Which indéed should haue oppressed vs infinitely and without end because the infinite maiestie of God whom we had offended required an infinite satisfaction for the offence and the same could not be yéelded by vs but by infinite and endlesse bearing of his wrath But it neither would nor might hold Christ in that sort because the infinitenesse of the time was recompensed by the infinitenesse of the person who was not onely man but God also Now whereas it is vrged that one drop of the bloud of Christ was sufficient to redeeme the world I answere that it is folly héereof to conclude that he suffered not in his soule for vs and with as good reason they may conclude that he was not crowned with thornes spitted vpon mocked and reuiled c. Yea the he died not at all nor shed any more but one drop of bloud We are not to stand vpon the fancies of men what they will thinke enough to redéeme vs but wée must learne in the word of God what the Lord hath done for vs that we may accordingly admire his mercie and goodnesse and sing thanks and prayses vnto him Now that thus Christ descended into hell I know that otherwise he descended into hell though I stand not to denie it yet I dare not affirme it Neither is it any pittiful damnable and horrible matter to auouch this but it is a trueth to be professed and comfortable to be beléeued and the Answe in so condemning it doth but as S. Peter saith d ● Pet. 2. 12. speake euill of those things which he knoweth not Now by this descending of Christ into hell