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A12919 A discourse wherin is debated whether it be expedient that the scripture should be in English for al men to reade that wyll Fyrst reade this booke with an indifferent eye, and then approue or condempne, as God shall moue your heart. Standish, John, 1507?-1570. 1554 (1554) STC 23207; ESTC S117827 41,170 164

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were then writen in the hertes of the faythfull but sone after when through synne it begāne to wax colde then was writing for the simples sake to preserue theyr faith and yet that not withstanding the authorite of the church the fundacion of all treuth of as greate strenght as it was before the new testament was all writen For were there not heretikes I pray you which denyed diuerse bokes of scripture as Martion and other wherewith were they subdued euyn with verities not written Marke wel that Moyses saith Origene greatly passed not for the letter writen when he dyd breake the tables nor Christe when he sayd to the Iewes the scripture shal be takē from you spake of the letter whiche they kepe styl but of the sense Wherfore awaye with the englishe damnable translation and lette them lerne the mysteries of god reuerently by hert and lerne to geue as muche credit to that whiche is not expressed as to that which is expressed in scripture Knowing that in .iij. pointes thautoritie of the churche is aboue the aucthoritie of scripture One is in fortifieng verities not writen to be necessary to saluation as plainly appeareth by manye verities in this probation another is for that the church receyued the gospels of Luke and Marke whiche Marke neuer saw Christ and did reiecte the Gospels made by his high Apostels Thomas and Bartilmew as for the gospell of Nicodeme which yet was familiar with Christe I speake not of The thyrde is bycause the church in all doubtfull causes and matters of controuersie must euer be iudge of the trew sense of scripture For she alone hath euer the true sēse of scripture So that by her authoritie onely Ireneus did conuince Valētin Tertulian Mertion Origen Celsum Ciprian Nouatum Nicen councell the Arians Hierom Iouinian and Augustine the Donatistes with many other And no meruell for so muche Christ him selfe made his Churche the Iudge ouer scripture when he sent the Apostels disciples to preache sayeng He that heareth you heareth me And also when he sayd Who so would not heare the Churche should be reputed and taken as an Ethnycke or Publican Seyng then that God thus appointed who wyll refuse to seke the trew vnderstandynge of scripture at that iudge whome Christ appointed hymselfe Surely none but selfe willie heretykes And here nowe to speake a worde or two of the Saboth and of mixtinge water wyth wine in the chalice whereof I should haue spoken before when I recited manye verities not written and firste concernynge the Saboth Albeit the matter of the precept be morall and the daye legal so that it myght be chaunged yet the church would neuer haue done that without speciall ordinaunce of God beinge made iudge in the cause And likewise it is to be sayde of mixtinge water wyth wyne in the chalice The Ghospel speaketh of wine onely tourned into Christes precious bloude who durste then mixte water therewith But the church is so assured of Goddes pleasure therein without any scripture that they dare not only put in water but also dare not leaue it oute And wherby knewe the church these thinges but by Christe and hys holy Apostles whiche taught in their time And so in these thinges and manye other moe went it furth from age to age continuinge in the churche tyll thys daye begonne by Christ in the beginninge withoute mention made in scripture written The .iiij. probation Some desire to haue it in the englyshe tongue only for knowledge and this is but curiositie some only for vain praise this is but vain glory to be sene learned Some only to taunt poore priestes and other therewith and this is but deuelishnes so that for none of these it ought to be in english Nowe where some would desyre it in english only to be edified thereby for this desyre only is to be embrased treuth is they may be sufficiently edified by sermons and holsom doctrine of the scriptures expounded vnto theym by such as haue the key of knoweledge as ofte as they shall well requyre and herewith a godly minde wyl be content knowing that the contrary is against the catholyke church So that euin the good and catholyke people which would doe good and noo hurt with the Bible in english yet may not be permitted to kepe it in the english tōge partly lest the infirme and weake thereby should be offended eyther in misiudging or in taking example yf occasion serue to get the same libertie to theyr destruction and partly that no occasion be geuen therby to obstinate heretikes to murmur that they haue it not in english them selues as wel as thother And this answer I geue vnto theym which seme of a godlye zeale to say scripture ought to be in english for the vse and commoditie of such people as with an earnest zeale and deuoute study doo hunger and thurste the simple and plaine knowlege of Gods worde not for contentious bablyng but for innocent lyuyng not to be curious searchers of the high mysteries but to be faithfull doers of Gods byddyngs not to be troublous talkers of the Bible but sincere folowers of Gods preceptes therin conteyned not to be vnreuerent reasoners in holy scripture for vain settīg out of their painted sheathe but to be hūble and louly workers of Gods glory not to be curious disputers in the Gospell for the mayntenaūce of theyr inordinate lustes and carnall libertye but to be vpryghte walkers in holye conuersation of lyfe in the rule of the gospell prescribed The fyfte probation Hauyng the scripture in englysh they presume to know all the scriptures perfitly and that to theyr condemnation contrary to s Hieroms rule which is this Si non succedat idoneus interpres potius nescire oportet quam cum periculo discere c. Yf there be not one present that is mete to expounde the scriptures it is better not to know the mysteries then with ieoperdie and peryll to searche theim c. The syxte probacion The most parte of the people be euyll but Christe wolde none such should haue the handlyng of his secrettes as appereth by that he willeth precious stones not to be caste amongest swine nor holye breade to dogges Therfore scripture ought not so to be lefte that all without anye discretion or difference may hādle it at their pleasures whiche muste nedes be if it be sette at libertie in the vulgar tongue in euerye churche The seuenth probation The moste part of the people be ignoraunt not hable to discerne betwene the letter and the mystery but none suche be mete iudges in suche high matters yet none wylbe more bolde then blynde bayarde therefore the scripture must be kepte furth of the handling of all suche which cānot be if it cōtinue in English as it doth for all men to dispute of it that wyll The eight probation Is not the scripture ful of figures and tropes Shal it then be so lefte that euery one shal be iudge therof The
If Spiridion iustlye reprehended Triphillius but onelye for chaunginge of one worde in scripture cubile for lectū what reprofe are our men worthye Lib. i. Tripere capit x. whiche chaunge many hundred wordes yea sentences and all If holy Basilius wold not suffer one syllable of scripture to be corrupted or altered lib. vii tripert cap. xxxvi but rather would haue suffered many deathes what shall we then say to the great and damnable corruption and alteration that hath been among our men If holy Basilius bad the Emperors coke medle with his cokerye let scripture alone tuū est inquit de pulmētarijs cogitare nō dog mata diuina de coquere lib. vij ●rip ca. xxxvi what woulde he haue sayde to oure men these yeres past The .l. probation Hauinge the scripture in Englishe causeth manye braynles bodies to dispute and reason they know not whervpon and euer to lay scripture for the wickedlye as al heretikes euer did where as in dede in reasoninge with suche scripture wyll not serue Tertull. de praescrip haerettcorū et lib. iiij cōtra M●rtionem For as Tertullian saieth in disputing with an heretike we muste not flee to scriptures nor pitche our battel there for ther eyther neuer or els very hardly the victory shal be gotten Heretikes wylbe ouercome sayeth Sisinius vnto Nectarius in the storie of Socrates li. 9. trip ca. 19 neither with scriptures nor with disputations † Approbata ab ●cclesia nō oportet rursus rationibus fulcire etc. Nam quēadmodū par est spiritui fācto et Cbristo diuinitas ita in suis institutis est aequa authoritas potestas Nec minus ratū est quod eeclesia dictāte spiritu sancto tradidit quā quod ipse tradidit Haec Cypri de Lot ped but only by the authoritie of the churche and by the traditions of the fathers elders So that beside the scripture written we muste receyue manye traditions not written many generall councels in whō the holye ghost did speake and sundrie interpretations vpon scriptures made by the holy fathers beinge replenished wyth Gods spirite ¶ The conclusion of this simple discourse SEing now these probations which be euident against the scripture in Englishe seing also the great hardnes that is in scripture with the causes therof and how many waies the letter doth kyl And seing againe that the vniuersall churche of Christ hath vtterly forbid the scripture to be in the vulgare tongue consideryng the manyfolde inconueniences that ryse therof as great numbres of heresies disobedience and contempt of powers with fleshely libertie c. And finally seing that by no meanes so soone as by the scripture in english heresies do both spryng daily and be also mainteined wherin should good men be more diligent than in thexter patiō hereof wherfore it shal be euery faithful christians duetie being in authoritie to lay to his healping hande to the taking away quite that with al spede the Englishe translations with all hereticall Englishe bookes whiche no doubt haue been the greatest occasion of all the mischeifes we haue hadde in this realme of late dayes Through these our newe founde religion hath euer strongly been mainteined and vpholden Our new found religion I say which ye must nedes confesse to haue ben starke nought and damnable because the beginnyng was aduoutry the continuaunce extortion the ende plaine treason Yea euen from the beginning their procedinges for so they termed them beyng rather worthy the name of retrocedinges were styll from synne to synne Fyrst Peccatū quod per paenitētiā nō deletur suo pondere ad aliud peccatū grauius trabit Et hoc suppliciū domini longe omniū est grauissimū quād● vnū peccatū per aliud p●nitur quod peccatur quum in profundu ●enerit contēnit forsaking the head of the churche falling from the vnitie therof then despising all generall counselles all ordinaunces frō the beginning kept through out christendome After this spoyling pollyng pylling robbing and stealing all landes ornamentes goodes of the churche being more fearse then euer was Iulian thappostata without mercy or pitie And finally spytefully contemninge all the holy sacramentes with all censures and iudgementes of the churche and fathers vpon scripture only sticking to their own what pleased them to phansie O lorde was not this a tyme most miserable Iesu be mercyfull vnto vs and graunt vs neuer to fall againe into the lyke palpable darkenes ¶ Of Masse all other diuine seruice in the churche to be in Latine and not in the vulgare tongue ANd here note further I beseche you that like as it is nowe spoken of scripture not to be in English euen so is it ment that as vnlawful it is yea and more too if more may be that the high mysteries in the sacrifice of Masse or other diuine seruice should be in English where as the preist is a comon person and offereth vp for al the people beyng the meane betwene God and them so that his communication is to God and not to the people What cause is there then why diuine seruice should be in Englishe except ye thynke that God vnderstandeth no Latine Neither the Italians nor Greciās haue diuine seruice in their vulgare tongue Moreouer at that tyme of diuine seruice all the comen people then present shuld onely put their whole affiaūce in fide ma●ris ecclesiae in the fayth of oure mother the catholyke churche like as our beleif is in the baptisme of infantes Yea note further that it was not without great mystery the writyng of Christes tytle at his passion in Hebrewe Greke and Latine Also it was not without great mysterye that many wordes were neuer translated as Alleluya Osanna Amen Sabaoth Kirieleison c. And that Christ praied in secret silence alone the head for the whole bodie to signifie vnto vs thereby that the priestes office is likewise to doe the same the cōmon minister for al the people being meane betwene God them As for that of Paule to the Corinthians i. Cor. xiiii which might appeare to the simple to make for theyr purpose to haue all in the vulgar tonge yf ye marke it well it is onely spoken for them whiche doe preache expounde or interprete scriptures in the church that is to saye that their sermons their expoūdinges or interpretatiōs of scriptures they beinge authorised therevnto must euer be made in that tōge whiche the hearers doe vnderstande and perceyue And this ye know well bothe is and euer hath ben vsed And therfore here now further A man might demaunde a questiō wherfore ye com to the Churche I suppose ye wyll saye as ye muste no doubte yf ye tell the treuthe that the chiefe intente of your comming is or ought to be to pray though sermōs and diuine seruice and the ministration of the holy sacramentes be causes also seing that Christe called the Church the house of prayer
ninth probation The vniuersal church of Chrst did neuer allowe nor approue Scripture to bee in the vulgare tongue weying the manifolde inconueniences that haue issued thereof but euer from tyme to tyme amonge other errours did tread that doune suppresse it If we therfore according to the article of oure Crede beleue the vniuersal Churche we must not admit the scripture to be in our Englishe tongue knowing that as S. Ciprian sayeth that whiche hathe been done and ordeyned by the church the holye ghost being the guyde is of as great weyght as that whiche was done by Christ him selfe The tenth probation Scripture is coūted to be somtimes meate somtimes drinke Greg. lib. i. moral drinke in light places meate in obscure places which in expoūdinge is as it were eaten being broken It was not therefore withoute great mysterie that Christ caused the Apostles to breake the breade to the multitude of the people whom he fed with v. loaues signifiynge the spirituall breakynge of the bread of the soule amonge the people euer to bee done by the ministers diligentlye and that it should not be complayned vpon by the Prophet Hierem. Thren iiii sayinge my children haue desired bread and there was none to breake it to them and likewise by Amos there is a great hunger sayeth he not of lacke of bodily foode but of hearinge the worde of God And also by Esay the nobles did perish for lacke of mete and the multitude for lacke of drinke Esay v. By these it maye well appeare that the common people shoulde not presume to expounde the scriptures thē selues nor to be iudges therof whiche yet they wyll doe as experience sheweth yf they haue it in the vulgar tongue Therfore away with it The eleuenth probation There be diuers and sundrie senses in the scripture as bothe Origen and Augustine doe declare whiche be not for euerye simple brayne to finde out Orig. homil 2. ● 11. in Ge. Aug. de vtilitate cre ad honor cap. 3. The mysterie oft is hidde the well of scripture is depe puteus altus est euery ones strength is not hable to drawe vp the water of lyfe furth of the botome of it Therfore the welle muste be couered lest the yonglinges fall into it and so be drowned The xii probation Paule thought not the Corinthians hable to haue the mysteries opened vnto them i. Cor. iii. saying I feede you with milke yet our most ignorant people wyll murmur if they may not fede thē selues with the highest mysteries of all euen in theyr owne natiue language Paule s●●th he fedde the Corinthians as younge children whiche yf they fede thē selues wyl defile slober their clothes And do not these nowe in oure dayes defile theyr weddinge garmente with presuming to feede them selues with spiritual fode of the soule And marke here I prai you that it was not without cause that Paul vsed here this similitude seinge children not suffered to fede them selues ofte strike the meate throughe frowardnes furth of the nources hande ofte forsake it and tourne awaye euen as doe styl the wicked whiche woulde feede them selues spirituallye with the englishe translation of scripture to theyr vtter poysoning after the maner of children which being permitted to fede them selues may gather vp poyson or ven●m and fede thereon not that I meane that in scripture shoulde be any poyson but that a medicine ministred by the Phisitian oft healeth which takē by your selfe not knowinge how where nor when to take it poysoneth and kylleth The Bee and the Spider gather on one floure the one honye the other poyson the floure ministring no occasion thervnto but onely their owne natures Where vpon S. Augustine sayeth Aug. in psal xlviij omnia diuina eloquia salubria sūt bene intelligentibus periculosa ijs qui eam volūt ad sui cordis peruersitatem detorquere all holye scriptures be holsome and moste profitable to them that vnderstande them aright but they be perilous to al suche whiche wyll wrast them after the frowardnesse of theyr owne heartes O lorde howe manye haue wrasted the scripture amisse throughe the wicked libertie of hauinge it in Englishe these many yeares The xiii probation Christ sayd to the Saduces ye do erre not vnderstāding the scriptures Math. xxii Ioseph lib. 2. de bel Iud. et li. 18. de antiquit the cause was that thei receyued no interpreters vppon scripture not muche vnlike vnto our men which only with the Englishe translation though it be neuer so false so corrupt and dampnable woulde take vpon them the full vnderstandynge of scriptures The .xiiii. probation Saincte Peter testified as it is in my fyrste chapter that many thynges in S. ii Pet. iii. Paules epistles were hard to be vnderstand which the vnlearned did then peruert to theyr destruction as they dyd other places of scriptures And yet for all this dare our vnlearned men be styll desyrous to haue the same scriptures in theyr owne speache to peruerte to they re owne condemnation The xv probation Dyd Christ ofte testifie that it was not for euery one too knowe the high mysteries and yet dare the blynde so presume styll onely with theyr English translation It was not wtout great cause that Christ woulde not his mysteries to be published to al people For the comen sort neuer vsed them well And therfore many hyghe mysteries there be sayth S. Basyl which neuer were wrtten but in the heart of the elect And. S. Hierom vpon Labia sacerdotis custodiunt scientiam Malach. ii sayeth that the ministers of Christes Churche whose duty is to teach the scripture must not styll vtter but kepe Tertull. in lib. de praescript haeret in medio libri tribuit omnibus apostolis arcana cognoscere quae ignobili vulgo nō licuit ▪ that in tyme and place it may be published Theyr office is this to do not for euery mā to searche the secretes Christe wold not euery one to be a medler when he sayde to his disciples it shall be youre office to know the mysteries and to Nicodeme Art thou a Master in Israell and knowest not this gere as who should saye it belongeth to teachers to be rype in scriptures and for other to be hearers iiii Esd xii God said to Esdras speakyng and declaring hygh misteries put these secretes surely vp and teache theym to the wise mē that be hable to vnderstande theym iiii Esd iiii as for the lewde he rebuketh theym as vnmete to knowe suche highe secretes and mysteries Euery Idiote can beare stones to the building of a house and lay a hepe together but none can couche theym as they ought to be in theyr places but the mason euery foole can reade and bable of the scripture but only the godly learned teachers can play the spirituall masons parte in couchyng the lyuely stones in the spirituall buylding of Christes house The .xvi. probation God sayth by Malache
Therfore God hathe ordeined that like as in temporal gouernaūce none is made ruler but beynge outwardly sent and appointed by men euen so in the spirituall functiones Wherfore nowe to conclude seing the only remedy to redresse this damnable errour of theym whiche teache secretly and do● much hurt in corners through the english translation is to take it awaye for by other meanes it wil not be stopped it can not be permitted that the Bible shoulde continue in english Here in this I might haue had iust occasion to speake against preachers which hadde authoritie wickedly geuen to preache and did comenly preach vnderstandinge not the latine tonge as it was saide but were called some from one occupation and some from another and some frome plaieng the vices parte in enterludes but I wil not medle with this matter The xl probation Hierom. in Ezech. 44. S. Hierom saith Alta profunda dei mysteria non sunt monstranda vulgo nec proferenda ad populum ne si maiora se audierint maiestatem scientiae ferre non possint quasisolido suffocentur cibo qui adhuc lacte infantiae nutriendisunt The depe and profounde mysteries of God are not to be shewed to the common people nor to be vttred to thē lest they hearinge greater thinges then they can beare be not hable to atteyne to the knowledge therof and be as it were choked with harde meate whiche yet oughte to haue been fed but with milke of infancie The .xli probation It helpeth well and is a good probation against the english Bibles that Christe euer vsed paraboles to the rude vnlearned sorte yea and that the wordes of the gospell do testifie that ofte when he spake they vnderstode hym not Nihil inquit horum intellexerunt but yet he saide to his disciples and theyr successours Vobis datum est nosse mysteria It belongeth to you to knowe the mysteries Yea and whan he would teache theym high secretes he ascended into the mount from the comen people wherof Esai hadde spoken Esay vi Ye shall heare with youre eares and not vnderstand c. In expounding which place S. Hierom doeth vtterly dryue awaye the comen people from medling or handlyng the mysteries of scripture Agayne doeth not Christe showe in the Gospell Luc. xii that he is a good stewarde which geueth in measure to the seruauntes they re meate in dewe season what a wicked stewarde were he then whiche withoute all measure or discretion obseruing no order regarding no mans person or bloode wold set on the table before all men indifferently were he Lord or lorell master or seruaunt all kyndes of disshes at ones bothe grosse and fyne The .xlij probation Chrisosostom vpon Chrisost lib. iiij de sacerdotio Intende lectioni i. Ti. iiij sheweth thoffice of Bisshops to be to studye the scripture thoffice of the laitie to know the scripture by they re teaching and preaching sufficient for theyr saluation The .xliij probation S. Augustin sheweth certen places of scripture to be for pregnaunt August epis● Volusiam wittes and certen for the rude dolardes But how then can the scripture be in thenglish tongue for all indifferentlye to reade The xliiij probation O how many Englyshe readers doe take hurte of the Prophetes and canticles not knowwing the mysteries nor when it is a trope not knowyng when it is to be taken to the lettere and when the letter doth kylle The .xlv. probation Gregorius Nazianzen saieth I is conuenit de rebus diuinis disserere lib. i. suae theol ▪ qui contemplandi acumine coeteris antecellunt c. It is mete for theym too intrete of Gods mysteries whiche doe excede and passe other in excellencie of gyfte c But then it shall not be lawfull for euery one to haue it in the vulgare tonge The xlvi probation S. Hierom saith that the Iewes dydde not permitte any to reade the beginning of Genesis In proaemi● E●echielis nor the canticles neyther the beginning nor the ende of Ezechiell before .xxx. yeares And the Romayns suffered none to rede the bokes of Sibylla but onlye the tenne commissioners named decemviri Fenestella lib i. capi xiii and before theym the .ij. commissioners named duumviri So muche reuerēce they gaue to theyr boke And shall we christians suffer the hyghe mysteries to be miserably tormoyled of all handes But ye wyl say S. Hierom and Chrisostom also in certein places seme to allow the laitie vnto reading of scriptures And. S. Hierom did translate scripture vnto the Dalmatians Truth is many thīges for a time haue ben permitted of deuotion but after seing the successe nought they haue been taken awaye After the beginninge maydes wiues boyes and men kept vigils together aboute martyrs tumbes and Vigilantius for reprouing it was sharply taunted of S. Hierom yet afterward for inconueniēces it was taken away Euseb lib vi cap. xxxiij And at the beginninge the bodie of Christ was geuen to the laytie in their handes to carye home c. But thorough witchecraftes and other abuses cōmitted that custome was taken awaye Likewyse the laytie receyued once vnder bothe kindes whiche custome throughe offenses and perils that chaunced and that might chaunce still is iustly prohibited and taken awaye vtterlye And likewise answere is to be geuen to all them that make these forsayde obiectiōs to haue the scriptures in englishe The .xlvii. probation If that which Eusebius doth testifie in his time to be trewe had been nowe verified in these our daies we neded not then to be so ferd of hauinge scripture in euery mans hand Libro eccl cap. xvi His wordes be these Imperiti obseruant ne disputare audeant de ijs quae ignorant et de illis testimoniū perhibere quae nesciunt The vnlearned euer obserue this that they dare not once dispute or reason of those thinges that thei be ignoraunt of nor beare testimonie of those thinges whiche they know not But alas nowe the more ignoraunt the more obstinate in madde boldnesse so that by no meanes thenglish translation maye be suffered The .xlviij. probation ▪ Scripturarum intelligentiam non ex propria praesumptione sed ex maiorū scriptis autoritate sequebātur quos et ipsos ex apostolica successiōe intelligendi regulā suscepisse constabat Haec Eusebi lib. xi Eccl. cap. ix The example of Grego Nazian and Basil be to faythfull christians a sufficient rule to folow which if we do we wyl say awaye with thenglishe Bibles away they can not be abiden For the readers therof passe of no expositions of the fathers but onlye stycke to theyr owne bare taking of scripture as thei phancye it and as they please where as these .ii. holy doctours studied scripture together not presumptuously folowing their owne imaginatiō but folowing the doctrine and authoritie of the elders whom they knew to haue receyued the vnderstāding of scripture euyn by succession from the Apostels The xlix probation