dyd because thei had so receiued of their predecessors and fathers whose wysedomes thei had not to suspect yet you were not content with the licence grauÌ„ted vnto you of disputyng with them but you would allso apoint vnto them what order thei should take in the matter And for all their possession yet you would dryue them to shew their euidencies What if thei had lost their writinges or could not fynd them presently or wold not shew them to such as you were ys their silence or refusall in that behalfe to be accompted for a losse of their cause But thankes be to your Bishoperickes when you be now well placed you are content that the plaintyfe shoulde first and formost shew his euidence And now it ys against reason that the possessor should take the person of a plaintyfe which before this tyme would not be grauÌ„ted whiles your selfes were out of all possession But how say yow if the Catholikes doe continually yet keepe their possession for the Bishopes of Fraunce Spaigne Germanie and Italy are not yet dryuen out of their chaires and places of the Apostells And as long as they keepe their romes you can not enter in to the churche as it were a house forsaken and destitute how then will you dryue them out by force vi armis In deede it ys one of the cheifest wayes by which the new ghospel hath proceded which if you can not as yet folow thoroughly you must then either lett them alone which you do not as appeareth by your sermons writinges or els bring furth your euideÌ„ces against them which be in possession But no reason shall preuaile except it make for you and therefor you passe not vpon the possession which the Catholikes hold and keepe in the world but you wyll dryue them to the prouyng of such articles as doe offend you and for your owne part you will stand vpon the negatiue The resting vpoÌ„ which because you say it ys mistaken lett vs heare your expositioÌ„ how it must be vnderstanded M. Iuell say you perceauyng vs to make this auauÌ„t that the church hath taught as we doe these xvC yeares dyd both wyselie and lernedly see that there was none so fytt way to dryue vs from it As to rest vpon this true negatiue that we haue no sufâ—icient proufe out of the authorities of scriptures fathers or councells But Syr how can your wysedome serue you to think that because you will haue vs to proue our doctrine therefor we must do it Yf euerie Catholike Bishope in the world should in his owne conscience haue mislyked the vse of the Catholike church in sundrie articles yet for the reuerence which they owe vnto antiquitie they should not without euident and manifest reason haue lightly geauen ouer their old orders for the strength of tradition ys so great that allthough I could see no reason why I should defend it yet I should not contempne their authoritie from whom it was receiued For lyke as in the Epistle vnto the Romanes which epistell traditioÌ„ teacheth me to be S. Paules I must not blott out euerie sentence which vnto my iudgemeÌ„t may seeme either vntrue either vnprofitable but reuerently thinke that all ys well allthough my vnderstandyng be very euill so when the churche of Christ doth generallie receaue and folow a custome I ought to iudge the best of it allthough I were not able to proue it To dispute of that which the whole churche thorough the world doth vse it is sayeth S. Augustyne a poynt of most insolent madnes Yf therefor being able to geaue no other reason for my beleife then only traditioÌ„ I should not rasshely depart from it shall my aduersary require of me a cause of my doinges in wryting and except I shew it owt of hand pull me away from my religion Lett me suppose that you browght M. Iuell vnto me and that he should find me standing in this poynt of the Catholike faith that it ys not of necessitie required in a Christen man to receiue vnder both kyndes What might he thinke you say vnto me either wysely either lernedly agaynst me you would make hym I know to speake after this sort that I haue no sufficient proufe owt of Scriptures Doctours or Councells to make for me Yes Syr would I answer and please you I haue sufficient authoritie for my beleife therein but I am not disposed to tell you of it and I would not care to take a blowe for so answering a Bisshope Yes Mary shall he saye if you had any you would alleage it and except you tell me of one or other you shall be accounted to make only an auaunt and in deed to haue nothing And here I trow if all Catholikes should hold their peace in lyke manner as I do it should be declared at Paules crosse the next sunday folowing that the papistes haue no one sentence or word to make for them in all Scripture Doctours and CouÌ„cells Well Sir then allthough this be to much iniury and oppression because the Catholikes were not disposed to refell your negatiue therevpon to conclude that they are able to say nothing I will yet goe further with you and graunt for disputation sake that which for truth sake is to be denyed And what is that forsoth that I haue no other cause in all the world for defence of the article which I mentioned but only this one that it hath very long and quietly continued How say you in this case wyll you stand still vpon the negatiue which for trying of your wysedome I graunt vnto you And to keepe your negatiue wil you deny that receiuyng in one kynd only hath not ben long vsed in the church No verely that can you not doe because it is so playne and euident that receiuyng in one kynd hath continuance of tyme and approued practise of Christendome for it that your selues doe crye out and gapple in pulpites that many hundred of yeres togeather before you were breathed owt in to the worlde all Christendome as in sundrie other pointes so in that allso was miserablie deceaued How then you will perchaunse proue vnto me that my argumeÌ„t is not good because all the world hath hytherto ben seduced And truly what other thing you might say I can not tell For when I shold yeld vnto you that I haue no Scripture Doctour or Councel for coÌ„munion in both kyndes and when you should not well call me vnreasonable for dwelling against you in that article and opinion alleageing the coÌ„sent and vse of Christendome for me either you must declare that reason of myne to be nothing worth the staying vpon or els you must hold your peace as hauing no more to saye vnto me or els you must repete your begynning againe and harpe madlye vpon one string in telling me that I can shew no sufficient sentence exaÌ„ple or authoritie why coÌ„munion should be geauen vnder one kynd only Now as you haue to muche varietie
owne institution shall neuer be broken of the church and when you be deliuered of this feare see whether you can proue any better then you haue done hitherto that the necessitie of cumpany to receiue with the priest is determined in scripture And if it be not determined expreslie it standeth as a thing indifferent by your owne vayne principle and then it is no breache of Christ his institution to vse sole receyuing How saye you then Will you forsake that fonde principle of yours that nothing is of necessitie to be credited but that which is expreslie in the scriptures No you will not I know your harte is so great against traditions Make then no more a doe but graunt that the obseruing of number and cumpanye is no more requisite then the obseruing of the tyme place kynde of persons and other circūstances which the Ghospell sheweth to haue ben vsed at the institution of the Sacrament No saye you that Many circumstances of place person and tyme maye be altered c. we graunte you but that cumpanye in receyuyng is one of those circumstances that we can not graunte as well for the reasons before declared as allso that we haue none example of the Apostles or primitiue church that we maye so doe Consider I praye you Syr the maner of your reasonyng We cōclude vpon your owne principle which againe we must call vayne leste anye should thinke that we doe allow it that cumpanie in receiuing is by expresse scripture of no more necessitie then the circumstances of tyme and place which Christ vsed in the delyuering of his sacrament and you answer that it is not founde in the example of the Apostles or primitiue churche that the cumpanie in receiuing was omitted as tyme and place are founde to haue ben altered in which saying you doe but enlarge your vayne principle vpō the graunting of which our argument proceeded Cumpany in receiuing in respect of the sacrament receiued is no greater matter then the circumstance of tyme and place ▪ but yet of sole receiuing saye you we haue none examples of the Apostles or primitiue church as though nothing might be vsed otherwise then as of former example it maye be gathered which addition if you thinke good to vse to make your foresaid principle vayne absolutelye lett it be so then and according to this reformed principle our argument shall thus come against you What so euer Christ did at the institution of the sacrament which we fynde not to be altered by the authoritie or example of Apostles or primitiue churche that is of necessitie to be obserued But our Sauior delyuered the sacrament at night and the Apostles with the primitiue churche of their tyme haue no example or manner to warrant vs to doe otherwyse ergo we must of necessitie receiue at night But it is vnreasonable to bring in such a necessitie ergo it is a vayne principle which maintayneth such absurditie And what you might aunswer vnto this I can not diuise except you will take examples of the primitiue church which folowed the Apostles But then remembre what you be wonte to saye out of Tertullian how that is best which was fyrst and agayne out of S. Cypriane Christ is most to be followed which was the first of all And consider allso whether the church of Corinth dyd not receiue the sacrament at night and reade in the actes of the Apostels whether there was not breaking of bread at night and fynde if you can in all scripture that ministring of the sacrament was vsed in the mornyng Are you wiser then Christ can you better dispose the tymes then the maker of tyme hymselfe Did not the Corinthians receiue at night Is there anye mention in scripture of receiuing before none These loe be your common places which if I would follow I could make as great exclamations at the breaking of Christ his institution in the tyme as you doe make for the lacking of communicantes For it is no matter to vs whether you do bring two or three causes wherefore the receiuing at night is or maye be altered for if good causes would haue preuailed you would neuer haue plaied so madd partes in crying out against sole receiuing but all thinges you saie must be brought to the institution of Christ and as he gaue example so must we follow and wherfore then might not one first breake his fast and afterwarde come to the Lorde his table And if busynes lett a Merchant all the daye why might he not receiue at night If you can dispense with one thing you maye do the lyke with all If you alter the tyme you maye alter the maner the place the bread the wyne and all that Christ did This kynde Syr of Rhetoryke and Logike we learne of you which if you do greatly myslyke when you heare it of an other besides your selfe looke then vpon your selfe better and correcte that vayne glorious principle which hath a shewe of learning and pietie but is in deede most rude and wycked when you saye that nothing should be necessarylie obserued which is not expreslie in scripture or nothing thereof might be altered without auctoritie or example of the Apostles and primitiue church Which example of Apostles or primitiue church you neede not to passe vpon in this kynde of matter For if you be most surely persuaded by the very text of the scripture that companye to receiue with the priest is of the substance of the sacrament allthough example might be founde in the primitiue church of sole receiuing or receiuing vnder one kynde you would yet condempne that example by the playne institution of Christ as you would take it what good then should an example do to you which although it were neuer so playne yet you would not be persuaded but that the cumpany at the communyon is allwaies of necessitie But of our examples we shall speake hereafter in the meane tyme what bring you to shewe that the hauing of company is of the necessitie of the sacrament And marke that we aske you not of companye whether it be laudable conuenient or honorable at the celebration of euerie masse but whether it be necessarie Of necessitie our question is and of expresse commaundement and you tell vs of the Paschall lambe of the Iewes and applye it vnto our Sacrament that lyke as cumpanye was of necessitie to the eating of the Paschall lambe so that it should be as necessarie to the receiuing of the sacrament After which argumēt you triumphe without victorie and aske of vs VVyll you saie that companye to eate vpp the Paschall lambe was not of the substance of the sacrament c. If you meane by the worde sacrament in this place the Paschall lambe it selfe cumpanye you know was no more of the substances of the lambe thē you with your bydden gestes be of the substance of your meate when you haue prouided for your selfe and them a fatt goose and
with staÌ„ding in two sundry external thinges geaue the communion of them to his Disciples This letteth nothing our beleif which do know as well as you that Christ gaue his body and bloud vnder two formes of bread and wyne and yet notwithstanding one Christ was receiued vnder both formes of bread and wyne But therefor he deliuered hymselfe vnder those two kyndes and not one that we might the better consider his passion in which the bloud was separated from the bodye Therfore the fayth of the communicantes in the one parte receiueth the body trusting to Christ his promises the same fayth in the other parte receyueth the bloud beleiuing also our Sauior his wordes therein You haue not to proue that in the one part the body was receiued but that the bodye onlye without bloud is receiued And then further where you say that the faith of the communicantes receiueth the bodie doeth it receiue it as a dead carkas shame to thinke it or else as the bodye of the soune of God Christ our Sauior saieth The flesh profiteth nothing it is the spirite which quyckeneth How then doth the communicantes faith receiue such a sole body which hath neither bloud neither lyfe neither diuinitie in it The forgeauenes of synnes commeth only from the Deitie but the cheif instrument by which God worketh is Christes our Sauior most dearlye beloued Humanitie Which if a man conceiue as separate from his Diuinitie then trulye as it is emong all creatures most excellent so yet is it but a creature and very lytle auayleable vnto vs mary as it is the bodye and bloud of hym which was not only man but also God most glorious his body and bloud doth releiue vs through the presence of his maiestie You therfore which do diuide Christ and by your faith which no wyse man doth euer trust make a receiuing of a body without all bloud lyfe or diuinitie doe most playnelie take the fructe of their redemption from the people and make them to hang vpon grosse imaginations of a bodye without bloud and bloud without a bodye to their exceading losse and iniurie But now if all other argumentes fayled vs and if your deuise were not so obscure and vyle as it is yet the authoritie of the church is no small thing emong Christians againste which you speake so lyke a madd master as though you knew the voyce of Christ better then the church of Rome which yet doe not know whether there be any Christ or no except it were for the authoritie of the church of Rome And whereas you buyld all your institutions and articles vpon the textes of the scripture and your priuate interpretations and coÌ„tempne your mother Church yet except you folow the voyce of the church of Rome you can with no reason defende that this which you holde is scripture And here againe you call vpon vs to remembre S. Cyprian which in all that epistle of his vnto which you do referr vs doth so make against them which ministred only in water that he coÌ„futeth also them which minister onlye in wyne prouing both by the old and new law that wyne and water both should be mengled togeather in the misteries But as concerning tâ—e receiuing vnder one kynde of which we haue to speake what aunswer you vnto the place of Tertullian or vnto S. Cyprian his authoritie You saye that our argumentes taken out of them are but coniectures and the same very vncertayne for often tymes in the Doctors where one kynde is mencyoned both are vnderstanded as after shall more appeare Let the wordes of the authors them selâ—es trye it whether you or we do vse the vncertayne coniectures Tertullian in his second booke vnto his wyfe where he telleth her of the sondrye faultes and inconueniencies into which those women do bring themselfes which after their husbandes death do become wyffes vnto infidell and heathen rulers or gentlemen theÌ„selues being Christians emong which this is a verye principall one that in the houses of paynyms they shall not well be able to keep the orders of Christian people he sayeth after other persuasions Shalt thou not be espied cùm lectulum cùm corpusculum tuum signas c when thow doest blesse thy bedd and thy bodye with the signe of the crossâ— when thou doest spet out with exuâ—flation some vncleane thing when also thou doest aryse in the night tyme to praye and shalt thou not be thought to worke some witchcrafte Shall not thy husband know what thou doest taste secretely of before all meate And if he know it he beleiâ—eth it to be bread and not that which it is said to be Of these wordes you gather that in the name of bread is vnderstanded also wyne and why so Mary because that some tymes emong the Doctors of which hereafter we shall speake more both kyndes are vnderstanded when but one is expressed ergo Tertullian in this place is in lyke maner to be construed But our collection is otherwise that because we reade but one kynde specifyed therefore without any necessitie we doe not make coniectures that he meaneth both And we see that Tertullian in this booke was not in such hast that he needed to speake by figures vnto his wyfe or to number syx for the dozen Then by common reason we see that wyne in so lyttle a quantitie as ones parte commeth vnto in the distributing of the mysteries was not to be reserued of any person because of the quyck alteration of it Allso we beleiue that vnder one kynde Christ wholye is geauen and therefor that the gouernors of the church were not so folysh or scrupulous as to make a necessitie of both And whereas you perceyue by this testimonye that sole receyuing was then vsed which by your sayeing Christ his institution doth not permit we had no iust occasion to mystrust the receyuing vnder one kynde which we know to be of no greater force then the receyuing with company And you also if you had good wyttes might for good cause feare least you were deceyued in the question of receiuing vnder both kindes whereas in the controuersie of sole receyuing you be so openly confounded which yet you doe as earnestile endeuor to proue as you doe shifte to vnderstand both kyndes in Tertullian whereas he mencioneth but one Note further that when Christ said This is my bodye you will haue no bloud to appertaine vnto it and when any Doctor doth speake onlie of bread you will at your pleasure make wyne to be vnderstanded Iniurious in the one and superfluous in the other Therefore let it be tryed which of our two sydes doth vse more vncertaine coniectures Now as concerning S. Cyprian When a certayne woman saieth he assayed with her vnworthye handes to open her cheste in the which SanctuÌ„ Domini fuit the holy dody of our Lorde was she was made afrayd by fyer arysing from thens that she durst
by the worde of God there is no cause lefte to reiect it but in this case when one shall say here is Christ in Geneua an other saie here is Christ in Wyttenberge an other saie behold he is 〈◊〉 the wooddes of Bohemye euery faction pulling the symple vnto it here loe to trye such voyces whether they come of God or no the sure waye is to harken vnto the practyse and doctrine of the most part of Christendome as it hath ben for hundreds of yeares togeather And continuance of tyme in one doctrine with multitude of folowers doth make a very good persuasion to reiecte the vpstart and vnaccompanyed religion Naye say you if continuance of tyme and multitude of persons might be rulers to gouerne mens consciences then would that argument serue For the Israëlites against the Iewes for the priestes against the prophetes for the Iewes Gentiles against Christ his Apostles for the Turkes against vs Christians at this day See loe how you be deceyued For I would saye first not that a multitude of Turkes are better then a few Christians or that a long cōtynued Idolatrie is better then a new religion but in cōferring Turke with Turke Iew with Iew Christian with Christian and so furth I saye if the Mahometes law were good and that schismes and diuisions should aryse emong the professors of it that then the surest waye should be so to vnderstand and receiue that law as it hath ben taken of longest tyme before and of the most parte of all Turkes And in lyke maner when so euer emong vs which professe one Christ diuisions and taking of partes doe trouble mens consciences the best waye is by all good reason to folow that syde which hath longest continued and which hath most voyces for it And so it a Turke or panyme would alleage continuance of tyme to proue thereby his religiō to be good the next and wysest waye to aunswer hym is not to call him vnreasonable and folysh for the bringing of that argument for vndoubtedly vnto our naturall and common reason it is no tryfeling persuasion to see contynuance and multitude of folowers to be with vs but the right waye of cōuerting or confounding them in that argument is either to shew that naturall reason is against them as it was in their worshipping of stockes and stones either by myracle to persuade them as the Apostles in their dayes haue done or as good and religious persons doe in this our tyme emong the Indians or else to shew that it is no wonder if the religion of which thei be hath allreadie long contynued and shall from hense forward encreace daylie because it geaueth libertie vnto the flesh and vnto all bodely pleasures But the continuance and multitude of folowers which commend the doctrine of the church are so notable and myraculouse that except the finger of God were here it is vnpossible it should be regarded For prescript fastinges watchinges prayers preferring of virginitie before wedlock submitting of our owne willes vnto the cōmaundemēt of others confessing of our secrete faultes quiet suffring of harde penance these are verye much against the nature and appetyte of our flesh on the other syde that which the church teacheth of sainctes of sowles departed of seuen sacramentes and especiallye of that one in whiche allmightie God is receyued all this is so farr beyonde the capacitie of carnall reason that except fayth be infunded it is neuer rightly beleiued Yet this religion so repugnant vnto naturall appetyte so much surmounting all reason hath ben embraced of the poore and ryche the symple and the learned the stout and the tender the beggers and the Cesars and in spite of the dyuell the world the flesh and heretikes hath contynued these .xv. hundred yeares as we beleiue and as you be sorye for it these nyne hundred yeares togeather It is no wonder if a Turkyshe religion be much made of and cherisshed for they are permitted to haue here carnall pleasures for the worlde to come they are promysed to haue their full of them Againe I doe not maruayll if many follow Luther the Father or anye of his euyll fauored broode and children for the flesshe doth well allow it to eate what it will at all tymes to be free from earely rysing to haue short seruice in the churche to haue matrymonye no sacrament to be bounde to no ceremonye and to be subiect vnto none other authoritie then the expresse scripture But that the Catholike religion which is so exacte so deuout and so graue that it maketh the carnall men to wyssh that it were out of the worlde should haue cōtynuall folowers of it and before so long tyme preserued it is not for flessh and bloud to bring it to passe but it is the verye worke of God whom nothing can resyst and withstande Consider also their lyues and maners which haue ben emong other the maynteyners of it And because none are more odious vnto the world then prelates monkes and fryars I wysh that some of them were rightly considered For if you can beleiue historyes and monumētes what fault do you fynde in S. Francys and S. Dominike if you will reade their bookes what can you saye against S. Bernard S. Bonauenture S. Thomas of Aquyne Rupertus Anselmus Dionysius the Carthusian with a numbre of such holy and reuerende fathers whose writinges sufficiently declare how much they remembred Christ how diligently they did reade the scriptures how freely they reproued faultes and lamented the euill lyfe of Christians how much they were acquaynted with the sweete spirite of God and practysed in fightyng for the sowle against the dyuell The doctrine therfor of our church hath not only contynued meruaylouslye but contynued in many and in those many no few haue ben excellent and in such sort excellent that if not before it might our religion haue ben now alowed because such godly and graue heades did vse it Whereas on your syde if your inuentions were tollerable yet those Apostles of yours whō in these latter dayes you say God hath styrred to reproue our vice and irreligion and to reuyue his truth and testament haue ben so vyle themselues that vndoubtedly God dyd neuer sende them and a reasonable man should neuer folow them What an Apostle was Luther who gaue hym leaue to break his vow which those holye men whom euen now I named did keepe vnto death who moued hym to lye with a noune If he lyued chaste being yet within his ordre what spirite trow you was that which could not afterwardes keepe hym chaste when he was selected to preache a Ghospell Then if he lyued abominably when he was kept in Cloyster was he a meete instrument for God to worke the redemption of his church so long deceaued And if God had forgeauē his former great offences that he should be more humble in preaching of grace and mercie would he so sone haue forsakē hym that in
the heate of his preachementes he could not but take a noune to his bedfellow And as he was in his doinges so is he in his writinges so shameles so fylthy so vncleane so slaunderous so mutable so presumptious and so desperate that it is wonder that he is accompted for a man much lesse for a man of God I speake these thinges to declare what difference ther is betweene our holy Abbates and your rennegate fryars the folowers of our religion and the founders of yours to enforce you hereby to shew what you thinke of S. Bernard S. Bonauenture S. Denyse and others and to signifye hereby vnto you that as we staye vpon contynuance and numbre so yet we reioyce at the vertues and graces which haue and do appeare playnly in many of this numbre wherefore it is not without cause that we are confirmed in our fayth and doctryne because of such a contynuance of it Note that I saye such a contynuanbe For Turkes Sarracenes and Panymes may alleage contynuance but such a contynuance in which the doctrine taught is greauous vnto the carnall man and yet receyued and the greatest professors of it are hated of all heretikes and yet for conscience and wordlye shame are not cōdemned such a one I say is much to be regarded and such a one is not found but onlye emong the Catholikes whose waies in doctrine if they be not open secure especially so great cumpany for so long tyme going in them with prosperous faring to their iourneyes end then will I neuer trust any waye but be as the cumpany is indifferent to go with euery one vntyll I am wery But thankes be to God he hath better prouyded for vs appointing his catholike churche to be the pyller and staye of true religion Which although it is quyckly to be founde out because it is in deede Catholike yet you thinke it necessarye to examyne what is the church and how it maye be knowen Goe to then we will follow you to the end of your defence in euery conclusion which you make against vs. The Scripture saye you speaketh of the church two waies sometyme as it is in deede before God not knowen allwaie to mans iudgement c. Sometyme the church is taken for the vniuersall multitude of all those which beyng dispersed through the world acknowledge one Christ. c. Sometyme the church is taken for the multitude of those that beare rule in the church You performe more then you promysed We looked but for two wayes and you haue declared three in which the scripture speaketh of the church by which it appeareth that you haue pretye knowledge but you keepe lytle good ordre in setting furth your diuisions Yet goe to as concerning the first sense which you make of the church what make you of her Can it err or no No say you this church is the pyller of truth that neuer continueth in error This church is neuer forsaken of the spirite of God In to this church none be receyued but onlye the children of grace and adoption How might a man then I praye you know this church Verely neither you neither any other can tell For whereas it consisteth of such as be the elect and chosen who can saye either of hymselfe that he is one of them or how can one say that of an other whose hart he seeth not which he can not vnderstand of his owne case which is best knowen vnto hymselfe Therfore as cōcerning the profyt and cōmoditye which they that would might take of this churche which is the pyller of truth we can receyue very lytle of it because she is inuisible vnto man and knowen onlye before God And if you dare saye that this churche may also be knowen vnto man I would you had showen one token or other of her that we might be sure where to fynde the pyller of truthe Now as concerning the church which is dispersed through the worlde and acknowledgeth one Christ and is Through baptisme admitted thervnto and by the vse of the Lordes supper openlye professeth the vnitie therof in doctryne and charitie Is this church trow you the pyller of truthe or what other opinion shall we haue of her This church saye you is resembled vnto a nett which hath good and bad in it it is resembled vnto a field which hath pure corne and cockle also in it You saye herein trulye and you agree now very wel with the catholike church which teacheth vs that in this world the good and euyll Christians are mengled togeather You make also much against certayne heretikes which stand in it stoutly that onely the elect are of the howsehold and familye of God which yet as you haue clerkely defined it can not be so because the good and the badd which acknowledge one Christ and receyue the sacramētes are the true church of Christ. Graunting therefor vnto you that the church hath good men and euill in her I aske now the cause of you wherfore you labor to proue that this church maye goe out of the waye for some part of her you tell vs of Noe of the .x. trybes of Israell of the Prophetes of the captiuitie of Babilon and other such historyes But to what end and purpose yf you wil proue thereby that thei which beare the name of the people of God haue often tymes forsaken his law and destroyed his Prophetes you haue spoken that for proufe wherof I wold neuer haue gone to the flood of Noe hauing so many examples at home to make this conclusion manifest For all they which be Christened doe beare the name of the people of God and the promyses are made only vnto them yet this world maye declare how many coniurars dissemblers wycked lyuers faithlesse ministers lecherous friars and desperate peruerters of all law and honestie doe lyue in the churche But if you would proue that because a great numbre was deceyued therefore the whole churche was subuerted you speake alltogeather without booke For to consider one example for all in the tyme of Elias the Prophet when he good man thought that all had forsaken God besydes hym selfe yet said God vnto hym I haue lefte my selfe seuen thousand in Israell which haue not bowed their knees before Baal And before that it is playne by the booke of kynges that Abdyas the stewarde of kyng Achab his house dyd hyde a hundred Prophetes of God from the sight of Iezabell the quene and fedd thē with bread and water Therefore as it can not be denyed but that they which haue borne the name of the people of God haue not allwayes and wholy folowed hym so yet it can neuer be proued that the visible church of God hath ben in all her partes subuerted And yet in the old law the church was not then so richely endowed as it was afterward in the commyng of Christ and his holie ghost neither were those wordes spokē then which haue
ben spoken sence and now presently doe take place our Sauior faythfully promysing vnto Sainct Peter that Thow art Peter which is to saye a rock and vpon this rock I will buyld my church and the gates of hell shall not preuayll against it So that if nothing might be said to the contrary but that in the olde law the church of God was not to be founde which is vnpossible to be proued yet in this tyme of grace when all nations of the world are in the heritage of Christ as only the Israelites then were and when for figures we haue truthes for Moyses the seruant and his chayer Iesus the soune of God and his lieutenant for the inspirations which came at sondry tymes vpon the Prophetes a continuall presence of the maiestie of the holie ghost for promyses vnder cōdition to tarye with them if they would folow his cōmaundementes most absolute performāce of the spirite of truth to be with vs vntyl the worldes end in this tyme of grace so gloriouse so much made of so deere and welbe loued so defenced so priuileaged to make so harde and pynching rekoning that the light of the world should be couered vnder some busshell and that cytie be vnperceauable which Christ him selfe planted vpon the topp of a hyll it is an ignominious and Iewysh and cruell dysgracing of the church of Christ. But because we maye have a better tyme and leysure to speake against you in this matter if this visible church which hath contynued so long in one maner of doctrine and sacramentes be not the true church of God because the visible church of the Iewes had not allwayes the truthe of doctryne And if it must follow because the kynges of Iuda were some tymes Idolators that the clergie of those tymes agreed vnto them and if some did so in deede that all therefore without exception did it or if because the Prophetes reproued the maners of the high Priestes therefore they condemned theyr doctryne and religyon or if Christ because he was cōdemned of the high Priestes sayed not vnto the people concerning the doctors of Moyses law Doe that which they saye vnto you but doe not after theyr doinges And to be short if all these unreasonable consequēcies which would please you very well should be graunted vnto you tell vs then for conscience sake what church we shall follow If the churche of Rome which hath ben and is so well receyued hath ben and may be vntrulye perswaded maye not that church which you perchanse shall point out vnto vs with your lytle fynger be also with good lykelyhood very fowlie deceyued And maye not one thirde person commend vnto vs an other church which agreeth with none of our two and yet is nothing the better In this doubt which doth so necessarilye aryse what is your ghostly counsell vnto such as are fearefull of conscience The right church therfore as the fold of Christ hath the true worde of God and vse of his sacramentes according vnto the same for the due markes therof After this maner you shall haue some tymes the symple idiotes of the countrey to make answer vnto straingers asking the right waye vnto this or that place which they would come vnto For saye they you must goe by my grandsyres close and then keepe the straytwaye and you shall neuer mysse Or else lyke as a man would sende his seruant to London for a cupp of pure and cleane wyne and tell hym that he shall be sure to haue it there where he seeth an Iuye garland to hang at the dore or the drawer of the wyne to vse no deceptfull bruyng of it wheras the Iuye garland is no certayne tokē of good wine ready to be solde and euery tapster will easily saie for his owne truth and honestye so you haue tolde vs such markes to know the true church by that as the true church hath them in deede so yet euery mysbegotten congregatiō will chalendge them vnto herselfe Except you thinke that Luther and Zuinglius with all their forked tayles of heresies doe not eche of them stande in yt that they haue the true worde of God and right vse of the sacramētes on eche of their sydes which yet are contrary the one to the other I had thought you would haue tolde of one such marke and signe to come by the knowledge of the true church that in all the controuersies of opinions and all the euill conditions of lyuing we might haue ben directed vnto one certayne and approued staye of our consciences and you to declare your wysedome and vnderstanding haue named two such markes as euery kynde of religion will boldely chalendge vnto her selfe First the true worde of God saye you is one true marke of the church what meane you then by the worde of God for if you meane the volume of the olde and new testament and that wheresoeuer we fynde the byble in any persons handes that we must thereby straitwayes take this for a certayne tokē that he which hath the byble in his hande is one of the right churche so shal you haue not only your selfe but Arrians Anabaptistes and all the rabell of myscreantes to be of the true churche by good lykelyhod On the otherside if you meane by the worde of God the two testamentes not as they are to be solde at bookebynders shopps but as they are expounded of sincere and true preachers what tokē thē shall we haue of you to know readily who is a true preacher And as I haue said of this first marke which you geaue so maye I saye againe of your seconde which is the right vse of the sacramētes Which as I will graunt vnto you to be rightlye practized onlye within the true churche so yet you haue to shewe vs further how I maye know such as doe minister them accordinglye You would proue by S. Augustine S. Cyprian Saint Chrisostome and Origine that the scripture is the true tryall of the churche Yea Syr in one sense that is true in deed as also that the church maketh the tryall and declaration of the true scripture But that euer any good and reasonable man had this meanyng that who so euer would might take the scriptures into his handes and sytt iudge ouer the church I denye it vtterly and I am sure you can neuer proue it For as the scripture declareth which is the true church so doeth the churche shewe the authoritie of the scripture and the scripture and the churche are the better the one for the other of them Do you thinke to make vs aferde by the appealing vnto scripture or doe you labor to moue a suspition that you only haue the Ghospell for you Verely we are content to be tryed not only by the scriptures but euen by those holy fathers which you depraue in this place towardes your purpose The cōtrouersie now betwene vs and you is the same which
was betwene S. Augustine and the Donatistes We seeke for the church and the place where she resteth You say that it hath ben vnknowen defaced obscured and coarcted you saye that it is now in England and before these last .lx. yeares you knew not where she was to be founde On the other syde we beleiue that it hath ben and shall be continually visible tholike vpon the topp of the hill not in gardens or chambers not in corners of countreyes but in the open sight of the worlde And here now at this point we shal haue no other thing but our yea and our nay Yes saye you lett the matter be tryed by scripture So lett it be and because you are so trymlye seene in them that you will make vs altogeather ignorant shewe vs your scriptures to proue your pretie narrow and shamefast churche Yf you can shewe none reade for the truthes sake those places which we shall name vnto you In thy seede all nations shall be blessed Aske of me and I wyll geaue the for thy heritage the Gentyles He meaning the Messias shall rule frō sea vnto sea and from the floud euen vnto the endes of the worlde Agayne The stone which was cutt out of the hyll without handes fylled the whole worlde So it hath ben wrytten and so it behoued Christ to suffre and repentance and remission of synnes to be preached in his name through all nations You shall be my wytnesses in Iury and Samaria and vnto the endes of the earthe But what of all this Marye Syr that you shold reade in these scriptures how playnly it was promysed that the whole world should be Christ his inheritage and that his churche should be sought for not in pelting corners of Africa of Europa or Asia not in wyttenberge Geneua or England but in all nations and in all countreyes of the world And if you myslyke this our cōclusion gathered out of these places of scripture consider then better then you haue done S. Augustins reasoning against Petilian and against all other Donatistes when so euer he wrote against them as in his 162. 166. 170. 171. and other of his epistles In all which places he proueth that it is vnpossible that Donate which was an vpstart heretike in Africa should haue the truth on his syde because the scriptures do so playnlye promyse vs that the church of Christ should be enlarged ouer the whole worlde and because it was so sensibly performed that euery one might see that churche which was extended through all nations Now if you haue any scriptures or authorityes or reasons to proue that the church should not be openly knowen for 900. yeares togeather or that about the yeare of our Lorde God .1500 the light of the Ghospell should begynne to appeare or that the churche may be in one countrey only or that Christ shold leese his inheritage which was promysed hym ouer the world or that all the dryfte of S. Augustyns reasoning against the Donatistes doth not expresly make against you then shall you speake somewhat worth the answering Against which tyme prouyde also to tell vs how S. Cyprian whom you alleage to proue that recourse should be had to the scriptures doth make any thing for you Yea rather he maketh cleane against you and if you had taken but small leysure to consider hym he teacheth you that to come vnto the truth and to be sure of it there is an other and better waye then you haue yet inuented For after those wordes Hereof aryse schysmes because we seeke not to the head nor haue recourse vnto the spring nor keepe the cōmaundementes of the heauenly master After which wordes you make a full point as though you had tolde all his meanyng he saieth further that to proue this there is no neede of long talke or reasonyng Our Lorde spake vnto Peter and sayed I tell the thow art Peter and vpon this rock I wyll buyld my church and the gates of hell shall not overcome it c. And allthough he gaue lyke authoritie vnto all his Apostles after his resurrection and said Euen as my father sent me I also sent you receyue you the holyghost yf you remyt any man his synnes they are forgeauen hym yf you reteyne them they are reteyned yet that he might make playne and set furth an vnitie he disposed by his owne authoritie the head and spring of that vnitie which beginneth of one And a lytle after he sayeth Doeth he beleiue that he holdeth and keepeth his fayth which keepth not this vnitie of the church How then could you bring in S. Cyprian in the commendatyon of anye of your two markes of the church which so expressely warneth you to consider the vnitie thereof and the authoritie which was geauen vnto S. Peter in which vnitie who so euer is not found hath lost all true fayth crake he neuer so much of his sacramentes and scriptures But now because it is not inough to declare that your markes of the church are vncertayne and controuersious except we geaue some better signes which may leade all men vnto the true church therfore it is to considered what we professe openlye in one of the articles of our Crede I beleiue sayeth euery Christian one holye Catholike and Apostolike church and if he knoweth also what he speaketh then shall he neuer be to seeking of the churche For she must be fyrst of all One church that is to saye she must haue one profession of fayth one ordre in sacramentes and one head for her gouernement by which one worde thei be quicklye tryed for no good Christians which can neuer agree vpon their fayth or haue no certayne head or gouernour Secondlye the church is holye in this sense either because none are holye which are out of this church either because she hath ben bought with bloud a deare price either because she is stable and inuiolable Which note doth warne vs to beware of them which haue no contynuance in their religion but are quyckely altered at euery new preachers inuention Thirdly the church must be Catholike which is to say she must goe through the whole world not only in respect of place but also of persons and tyme wherevpon it foloweth that all such religion as lurketh only in particular countreyes or which hath no antiquitie and contynuance at all is to be reiected as a singuler naught and no Catholike or good religion And last of all the true church must be Apostolike by which worde I meane that if they of England now or those of Geneua can by degrees ascende and frō one minister vnto an other go vpwardes in a cōtynual ordre vntyll they do come vnto one of the Apostles whō they will proue to haue ben a father to their religion that then they haue one good signe to commende their doinges But because this is vnpossible to be doone of them therfore they are not
striued before SalomoÌ„ one told a long tale of her dwelling in one house togeather with her felowe of her owne and her felowes childebearing of her quicke child taken in the night season from her side and the placing of her companions dead boye in her bosome with other such circumstancies more to moue perchaunse some affections When she had ended It ys not so quod the other woman vnto her as thou saiest but thy soune ys deade and myne lyueth But on the other side Thou lyest saieth she for my soune ys a lyue and thyne ys deade And thus thei striued before te kinge Now what sentence the wise Prince gaue it is commonlye knowen as how he called for a sword and commaunding the quick child to be diuided in .ij. partes sought to find out thereby in which of the .ij. women the naturall compassion ouer her child would sonest appeare Which straitwayes vttering it self brimly in one of them as he wittilie had coÌ„ceiued vnto her he apointed the quicke child and sensiblie dissolued a secrete question Of which example this I thinke may be well gathered that in all controuersies we goe strayt to the quicke of the question and rest not vpon the by matters For in disputing of the Sacrament of the aultar and the necessitie whether some allwaies should communicate thou lyest saieth one thou blasphemiest saieth the other this is an itching folie saieth one this is sluttisshe eloquence saith the other you playe apishe partes saieth one you be like S. George an horsebacke saieth the other and this is no litle sport vnto manie to see how contrarie sides can cutt one the other But this vndoubtedlye is nothing to the question how euen one is with the other For coÌ„cerning such odd wordes as I can not tell hou thei come in and serue to the expressing of affections so let hym take heede which vseth them that thei coÌ„sent and agree with the matter and let other be warned which are the readers or hearers not to gape after such glauncies which happ now and then in sadd writing but to marke aduisedlye what truth is in question and neither by acclamation to the wordlie proceedinges neither indignation against the old faith and Catholike to shrinke in anye part from it Wich is me thinketh to call for a Salomons sword and not to sitt still in iudgement with harkening after such by phrases as are not of the substance of the question The sharpnes of which sword will shew who is the false harlot and who is loth to be inwardlie examined caring not what absurditie he permitteth so that he be not openlie confounded and the nature as I may saye of the question be not espyied And this I speake not onlye for the indifferent reader his sake whom I wisshe to consider the truth ernestly but for our ease allso in this fight with the Protestantes that we might come to some peace and conclusion For to the bokes of Catholikes which of late haue ben printed some of the answers and the most coÌ„mon are these It is an vnlerned boke it doth not obserue the stiles titles which it should doe it nameth hym but Master whom it should call my Lord it alleageth such authorities as we neuer saw it reciteth visions which are not in scripture it hath false Latin in it it is full of skoffes and tauntes As who should thinke the argument were dissolued if the maker of it were reproued for lisping in his vtterance or making a wrie mouth vpon his aduersarie For if these were heighnous faultes and might in deede be so proued against the Catholikes or if there were not a perfect hatred which the holye Prophete boldlye confesseth in louing the persons of his enemies with detesting to the vttermost and defying all their iniquities yet a wise preacher would not speake at all of them or lightlie passe away from such matters and go exactlie to the point of the question and proue that it toucheth not the state of his religion Yet I graunt if a religion were approued by long vse of all Christendome it were inough to tell the people that the contrarie is not to be credited and thei without more wordes ought to be perswaded as bound to folow an vniuersall authoritie of Catholike priestes and Bishopes But when new opinions are brought furth in to open pulpites and thei coÌ„mended by no formar authoritie allso when straunge Ghospells are confirmed by no miracles but onlye by naked affirmations and priuate interpretatioÌ„s that this is true and this we vnderstaÌ„d it or els by no likelie and probable reasons by which the vnderstanding might be sumwhat directed it is no honest and indifferent dealing that when such their wordes and argumeÌ„ts are disproued it should be inough for them to answer againe you lie or you iest or you fauor not the pure and sincere Ghospell I gather by the handeling of other Catholikes what I haue to prouide for about my owne doings A preacher at paules crosse in an euill houre prouoked all the Catholikes in the world vpon manifold articles against him for part of his lying a short confutation was straitwaies put in writing which for the shortnes of it being easelie copied out and for the truth and soundnes of it liked verie well of the Catholikes through much goeing abrode in to manie places and free communicating of it vnto diuers persons it cummeth at length vnto a protestaÌ„ts handes which before that was desirous of it Which to the coÌ„mendacion of his zeale vndoubtedlie although not of his science made with speede an answer vnto it and intitled it An answer in defence of the truth c. Wherin you may note how much in a short time the world is chaunged For at that season simple and familiar letters of Catholikes not framed to such purposes were out of hand answered and put in print Treatisies also which went abrode without name from frind to frind were sought and inquired for curiouslie and set furth in print to be considered Yet now when thei are prouoked againe and againe to make good the crakes sett on their Ghospell thei worke I feare by deceipts and subtelties and haue either no answer at all to make or that which thei haue made is not lyked of their fauorers or els thei will make so manie wordes and so greate a worke that lyke craftie wormes thei maye couer themselues vnder leaues and still mainteine a russhing with creeping yet awaye from the taking or els thei are not so hott in sprite as thei were wont to be But concerning that called Defence of the truth being sent vnto me by a great fauorer of the proceedinges and sent of verye good will and frindshipp that I should be reformed after his desire by it by considering how the Papiâ—â—es are allwayes repelled I taried not long but made a reply againste it the veritie of our cause was so euident and the false demeanure of the aduersarie that I might well defend the Catholike
the vestmentes of Christ full of redd spottes as if he had come lately from the wynepresse he alleageth allso the institution of Christ and the testimonie of S. Paule by which both places he proueth that we should offer vp not water onlye but allso wyne Then he maketh further argument saying that the mixture of wyne and water in the chalice togeather doth signifie the coniunction of Christ and his church and that if wyne be offered vp alone the bloud of Christ is without vs and that if water alone be offered vp then the people begyn to be without Christ. Which reason of his if you wyll cōtempne I am sory that S. Cyprian hath so sone displeased you whom you seemed to make so much of before But as concernyng the argument of that epistle he proueth by those testimonies which I haue touched and by many other waies that in the offering which the priest maketh water and wyne bothe are to be mengled and that it was Christ his institution so to doe and that Christ only is to be folowed therein and that we must do herein no other thing thē that which Christ hymselfe dyd first of all Now Sir then with what face can you alleage S. Cyprian for proufe of your proposition which is generall whereas he speaketh of water and wyne to be mengled when the priest doth sacrifice which us a speciall case onlye And see how the dyuel dyd owe you a shame If you wyll refuse Saint Cyprian in that place then standeth your maior like a miserable proposition without any similitude of defence If you alowe S. Cyprian how standeth your religion in whose communion and Lordes table water and wyne are not mengled togeather which should be so duly and necessarily obserued Will you saie here that the field is not lost and that this is but an ouerthrow of one wing only Do you fight for the victorie and not for the veritie so that you may be semed to have somwhat allwaies to saie do you make no conscience nor rekonyng of your vniust and foule plaie Answer directly vnto this one argument or confesse your falsehode or ignorance and geaue ouer your stryuing against the manifest veritie If all thinges are to be obserued in such manner as Christ hath them instituted wherefor haue you no water in the chalice which Christ as S. Cyprian proueth hath so solemply delyuered Now on the other syde if some thinges may be well vnfolowed which Christ hymselfe apointed why make you such a generall stoute proposition which by yourselfe is so quicklye neglected For the mixture of wyne and water in the chalice you can not saie that you haue no authoritie of scripture no example of primitiue church no testimonie of auncient Doctour for in that one epistle of Saint Cypriane of which we speake which you seeme not to haue readen onlye but allso to alow you shall find all those places by which the veritie of this tradition may be proued Where then is your memorie That which S. Cyprian of purpose declareth of the mixture of wyne and water in the chalice you either see not or regard not and that which you put furth of the generall obseruing and keeping whatsoeuer Christ dyd in the institution of his sacrament is not at all in that epistle and yet you can read it there proued at large And here now I haue to saie further against you that you do not rightly interprete not only his mynd but not so much as his wordes For whereas that blessed martir saieth Admonitos autem nos scias vt in calice offerendo dominica traditio seruetur ▪ which is Know you further that we be warned that in offering of the chalice the tradition of our Lord be kept you interprete it after this fasshion Do you know therefor that we be admonisshed that in offering the sacrament of the Lords bloud his owne institution should be kept For examinyng of which your interpretation if you should be brought but vnto a Grammar schole dominica traditio is to shortly Englisshed his owne institution and in calice offerendo is to ignorantly Englisshed in the offering of the sacrament of the Lords bloud so that I beleeue verely if the Scholemaster were not very much a sleepe he would beare softly at your backe doore and make you to remember yourselfe better But if litle regard be taken of construction which is made in scholes yet it is to be prouyded diligently that no false construction be sett furth in print especially in such kind of matter as apperteineth vnto our sowle and is of so great weight and efficacie that it maketh or marreth an heresie You Englissh traditio not tradition but institution And whi rather institution then tradition Verely for no other cause I thinke but for that you abhorr the name of tradition and because you would seeme to the ignorant Reader to be a great fauorer of Christ his institution You Englisshe in calice offerendo after this sort in offering the sacrament of the Lords bloud and whi not rather in offering the chalice as the wordes themselues do signifie You had no litle craft in your mynd when you sett vpon the translating of this plaine sentence and for the word chalice to substitute the sacrament of the Lords bloud it was a deceitfull enterprise For if you would haue plainely saied as S. Cyprians wordes do signifie that in offering the chalice the tradition of our Lord be kept the diligent Reader would haue ben moved to require what tradition that should be which must be obserued in offering the chalice and he should be truly answered that it was the tradition of vsing not wyne alone or water alone but water and wyne both in the chalice togeather which would much disgrace your communion But when you make S. Cyprian to sound after this sense that in offering the sacrament of the Lords bloud his owne institution is to be folowed you geaue occasion to a simple and vnexpert Reader to thinke that hereby it is manifestly proued that the lay people at these daies allso must necessarily receiue his bloud because he in his institutiō of his sacramēt delyuered furth allso his bloud Whiche S. Cyprian yet dyd no more thinke vpon then he feared least any grāmarian should come many hundred yeares after hym and interprete his plaine wordes in such a froward sense as you haue done And so in the Englisshing furth of the selfesame sentence after these wordes and no other thing to be done then that the Lord dyd first for vs hymselue you make a full periode and point whereas it foloweth in S. Cyprian as clause of the same sentence that in deede we should doe as our Lord had done first hymselfe but wherein and how farr trowe you in all thinges and all circumstancies no truly For straitwaies it foloweth in S. Cyprian and it is the limitation of the whole proposition that the chalice which is offered vp in
his knowledge and especiallye with his brother he might and would haue ben so bolde as to reforme his simplicitie and superstitious zeale of mynde towardes the sacrament And if you will ymagine that he was loth to tell his owne brother the perfect truth of thin ges in his lyfe tyme yet at least after his death he should neuer haue praysed hym as he doeth in a most exquysite maner for that which according to your saying was to be tolerated onlye in the quyck and not praysed and commended in the dead Saint Ambrose therfore in a most sadd maner and tyme praysing his good brother which then was departed this world for many and sundrye vertues of iustice clemencie temperancie and chastitie and especiallie commending hym for his fayth and pietie which shewed it selfe in the shipwrack of which we haue spoken how can it be thought that so wise and constant a Bishop would alleage that historie to proue the pietie of his brother which rather after your interpretation was to be wynked at and kept vnder silence least he should seeme to betray vtter his superstitious behauiour and folie You myngle also mylke wyne water soppes moysted lynneÌ„ clothes altogeather as though there were no differeÌ„ce whether one did celebrate in milke alone or wyne alone or as though that if the soking of the sacrament of Christ his bodye in his bloud was by Iulis decrees reproued therefore also receyuing vnder one kynde or sole receiuing should be in lyke case myslyked And yet against water alone or mylke in steede of wyne you haue the expresse institution of Christ and the expresse canons of Bysshops and Councelles but you can bring no such proufe against vs that the sole receiuing or receiuing vnder one kynde is in no case lawful One thing I must coÌ„fesse vnto you that in deed you haue taken paynes to proue that the common maner of receiuing in the primitiue churche was vnder both kindes and in this part you alleage Gelasius Tertullian Iustine Cyprian Ambrose Gregorye Nazianzene Hierome Hilary and Chrisostome learned men all and the most of them Sainctes How well thei serue for your purpose what should I neede to examyne whereas you will coÌ„clude no more by them but that which we graunt without prouing It was a common maner to receiue in both kindes and to receiue with cumpanie but what of that Maye you conclude thereby that it was also the only maner and except you proue that it was the only maner all your reasoning make nothing against vs. Therefor Syr as you fought all this while out of the fyelde and matter proposed so haue you triumphed without any victory at all obtayned And although you laye allmost desperate stubbernes vnto our charge and exhort your readers to beholde the slendernes and feblenes of our reasons yet we will not be aferde to resist you in those pointes against which you can saie nothing and we shall counsell lykewise the reader not to walke vpon other mens feete but by his owne sense and disctetioÌ„ to consider whether that you haue not halted out of the question of which onlye we had to talke prouing vnto vs that receiuing with cumpany and vnder both â—yndes was ordinarie and accustomable in the begynnyng of the church which we grauÌ„t but nothing at al disprouing that sole receiuing or receiuing vnder one kynde may and hath ben vsed without any breach of Christ his institution Thirdly now it foloweth to speak of reseruation of the Sacrament which you thinke that no man hath euer flatlie denyed to haue ben vsed in the primitiue church â–ª how now then are not thei impudent which will speake against it No saie you And why saie ye no Mary because we maye denye Eyther that we haue any testimony in the word of God to iustifye it or that all the holy fathers did approue it Naye verelie this can not excuse some man of impudencie those I mean which are soâ— full of bosting and so voyde of doing that thei stand not vpoÌ„ these two pointes whether it be first in expresse scripture or whether all the Doctors approue it but saie playnlie that we haue not one worde one sentence one example of the primitiue church to proue our assertions Against which kynde of men it is sufficient for vs to shew that the thin ges which we affirme haue ben vsed and that also of good men In deede it is sufficient to shew that it was then vsed but it is not sufficient that it must therfore be allwayes vsed or all dyd well at that tyme in vsing of it Sir we doe not coÌ„clude a necessitie that it must be vsed because it was once vsed but a possibilitie and lawfullnes that it maye be now vsed that which in the primitiue church was not refused and we saye not that all then dyd well in vsing of it for what can we iudge of all their doinges but if S. Ambrose his brother alone did well it is inough for our purpose against certayne heretikes which make so much a doe about the vse of the Lorde his supper that except theÌ„ sacrament be straytwaies receyued there should be no bodye of Christ at all And if we had no more but S. Câ—rills testimonye against you it is inough for vs. Whom before you answer or rather not answer but denie you make a protestation and tell vs what authoritie you attribute vnto the olde fathers And because your saying should haue the more weight you conclude with S. Augustyne that you do not count any thing therefore true because men of excellent holynes and lerning were of that opinion But because they can persuade you eyther by scripture or good reason that it is not against the truth â–ª which saying of S. Augustyne we gladly admitt and add further vnto it that although scripture and reason be alleaged plentyfully yett that there is a further and greater authoritie by which we ought to be ruled For albeâ—â— that you doe make this obiection against your selfe as it were in our behalfes that men of great holynes and learning would neuer write that which they thought not to be agreable with God his worde by which your obiection it might be suspected that we doe stiffely and stoutly holde with euery saying of the excellent doctors yet the truth is farr otherwise And we know better then you because it was the Catholike churche which hath defined it and not you that Lactantius Cyprian Origen and many others had theyr priuate opinions and errors And if you wil staÌ„d by that which you haue protested why be you not of S. Cyprian his mynde as concerning rebaptisation whereas he wanted neither scriptures neyther reasons for his purpose or why doe ye not holde with Origen Clemens Alexandrinus TertulliaÌ„ and other great clerkes in such their false opinions which they defended with apparant scripture and reason Therfor as S. Augustyne saieth wiselie that he wil beleiue
dissolute fryar be thought worthy of estimation because he hath at these dayes manye folowers are not the religious in deede which continued in great numbre and with much praise in ther orders much more to be regarded If this be the tyme of grace and light in which we may see and lament vowes broken monasteryes ouerturned the landes of Christ and his church alyenated virginitie fasting praying and all rules of good and perfect lyfe coÌ„temned â–ª what tyme was that in which the contraries of all these were highlie commended and practysed The continuance onlye of a religion .900 yeares â–ª without interruption is a very probable argument not lightlie to passe away from it But when it is considered how many learned and godlie men how great Vniuersities how mighty Princes lyued within the compasse of those yeares and that of them all no one of the good and learned did anye thing write or preache against it and none of the Princes either would either could resist it who but vnsensible may thinke that it should not be of God Although that heresies do very shamefully encreace and that there be so many sectes and diuisions emong them that no one parte can euer be greate although the whole world were ouerturned vnto heresie yet at this day moe Catholikes are in Christendome then Lutherans Zuinglians Osiandrians Caluinyans Anabaptistes and all the rest of the lyke making togeather For these heresies are yet God make them narrower but here and there dispersed and Germanye the mother of them is for a great part of it full Catholike Yet as litle place as the new ghospell hath in comparison of Christendome see how much he whom you take for no small fole doth crake and bragg of that lytle Be ye sure sayth he so many free cityes so many kynges so many Princes as at this daye haue abandoned the sea of Rome and adioyned themselues to the Ghospell of Christ are not become madd Loe Syr if this felow might so trulye haue reported that all Kynges all Princes all free cityes of Christendome were of his religion as he doth falselye make an accompt of so many free cityes so many kynges so many princes c. how great an argument would you thinke that he dyd make for your side And againe if he had ben able to proue that for .ix. hundred yeares togeather Kynges and Princes and free cityes had contynued in his fayth without open contradiction how madd would he haue said all such to be as resist a religion confirmed by such authoritie and contynuance But this is your practise to denye all thinges which make presentlye against you and to allow the same againe when hereafter they maye serue for you and so long as you be in danger of law No man must be violentlye constrayned to receyue the religion which his conscience can not allow And when the Prince and power is with you then saye you Hanging is to good for hym which wyll not beleiue as you doe And so in the Apologye of your Englysh church the argument was â—ound and comfortable that because many Kynges had abandoned the sea of Rome therefore they might seeme not to be madd which did folow them and now in this your defence of the truth as you call it when we alleage contynuance and authoritie of .ix. hundred yeares you saye that multitude maketh not to the purpose and you thinke your selfe not a lytle wise in reprouing of our argument But how wise you proue your selfe therein it is worthwhile to consider First you say that the prescription of .xv. hundred yeares the consent of the most part of Christendome the holynes and learning of so many fathers as haue ben these .ix. hundred yeares the age and slender learning of those which stande against you all which thinges we doe bring for our defence These thinges saye you Doe nothing at all eyther feare vs or moue vs to suspect that doctrine which by Christs authoritie and wytnes of the Apostels we know to be true Stode you by the Apostles at their elbowes when they wrote their ghospells or epistles or were you then present with Christ when he walked visibly vpon the earth and by signes and myracles proued hym selfe to be the soune of God Trulye because your eye was not present at the wryting or working of our redemption you must therefor resort vnto such as maye instruct you of all thinges by the eare And because credit is not lightly to be geauen to an historie which is tolde vs of thinges passing reason therfor they ought to be of good authoritie whose wordes we should beleiue in the articles of euerlasting saluation But there can be no greater then the testimonye of all Christendome and they be few obscure and vnknowen whom you would haue to be our masters therefore no reasonable and wyse man will suspect the authoritie of the world and falsely persuade hym selfe that he beleiueth Christ or his Apostles when he hath contemned the voyce of Christendome which caused him to beleiue in Christ and credit his Apostles For how know you what doctryne Christ or his Apostles haue taught in the world Yf you know it by the scriptures what perswadeth you these scriptures to be true For when any new scripture and vnherd of vs before is alleaged or coÌ„mended vnto vs by a few without any reason which is able to confirme it we beleiue not first the scripture but them rather which browght it forth vnto vs. Therefore who told you that these be true scriptures If you name Luther and such as he was you haue done very rashly to beleiue incredible articles at the report of an vpstart rennegate which confirmed his authoritie by no myracle But on the other syde if Luther and you both haue ben content to receiue the scriptures of the Catholikes lest you should be accompted ouer frantyke or scrupulous in doubting whether al Christendome were not deceiued therein by what reason then can you suspect the contynuance pietye learnyng and multitude of Catholikes in the church of God and referr your selfe vnto Christ and his Apostles with contempt of the mysticall bodye of our Sauiour whereas you could not by reason without myracle beleiue in Christ and trust the Apostles except the authoritie of the Catholike church which you see to contynew in the world dyd moue you I wold not beleiue the Ghospell sayeth holye S. Augustine except the authoritie of the Catholike church dyd moue me thervnto Wherfore the contynuance of .ix. hundred yeares is and should be so worthelye regarded that eueÌ„ the authoritie of the church which now is shold by her selfe perswade you to beleiue her But say you our possession which we bragg of hath not ben quyet For in the .600 next after Christ our doctrines were neuer heard of which is a very fowle lye as it hath ben allready here before proued and as coÌ„cerning the 900. folowing they dyd not take