run to morowe nexte with the bloude of heretikes as God of his tendre mercie forbid suche hardenes of harte in those that professe them selues to be Christians yeat ought not therefore the cause to be iudged anie whit the better seing that we see the cursed secte of Anabaptistes and haue heard of the wicked Donatistes and knowe beside that the diuell hathe aswell his false witnesses readie to suffer gladlie moste bitter deathe for their conceaued opinions as Christe hathe his true martirs to doe the like for the true catholike faithe Thus muche be saide to M. Nowelles impertinent discourse of copes vestimentes gilted crosses candelstickes c. and to his other idle talcke of the persecution forsothe and martirdome sauing youre reuerences of his deare brethern Nowe at the length he commeth to that whiche he shoulde chiefely haue answered in this place that is of thetrieng of all controuersies by the only scripture To proue that of controuersies rising about the true vnderstandinge of the scripture the scripture it selfe should be the iudge he vseth a similitude wherin he compareth vs to the phariseis and him selfe and his companions to the Apostles And vpon that comparison reasoneth in effecte as foloweth As in the controuersie betwene the Apostles and the Phariseis Nowell fol. 69. a. 1 the question being whether Christe were the true Messias the Apostles affirming the Phariseis denieng if the matter had bene referred to the interpretation and determination of the high prieste and his consistorie we mighte yeat haue loked withe the Iues for Messias to come and as it was no reason that in the controuersie betwene the saide highe priestes and the Apostles whether they had put Christe iustlie or vniustlie to death they shoulde be them selues the iudges who were not onelie accessaries but the principall partes to the murther so must we nowe with the Apostles make the scripture the iudge of oure controuersies and the pope by all reason must be excluded as he that is the sinke of all the abhominations wherewith he that hath but halfe an eye maie see how shamefully the lawe of God is as it was by the Phariseis corrupted Youre similitude M. Nowell halteth and is not able Dorman therefore to go so far as it should For the better declaration whereof it is to be knowen that as sone as Iohn the Baptist Matth. 11. began to preache the Synagoge which had no promise to continue for euer began to languishe and so was at the length weakened that after Christes deathe it came to nothing Christe hauing then established a newe church and made his Apostles the doctours and iudges thereof and Peter the gouernour of all Now see I praye you how this similitude of youres holdeth The Apostles being the true church of Christe referred not their controuersies to the Phariseis which perteined not to the church yea were enemies and persecutours thereof but referred the same to the scriptures and iudged by the scriptures them selues ergo the church of Christe that is nowe maye not be the iudge of controuersies but we must refer the same to the scriptures I denie that consequent M. Nowell You proue it because the Apostles did not referre their controuersies to the high priestes and Phariseis I graunte you for their priestehode and auctoritie was expired When you shal be hable to proue vs Phariseis and your selues the true churche then maie you by this similitude reason that as the Apostles referred not the iudgement of the meaning of the scriptures to the Phariseis which were not the church nor of the church so you will not being the church refer the matter to vs but iudge of the scripture your selues as the Apostles The Apostles being the true churche of Christe iudged of the scriptures did In the meane season as the Apostles alleaged for thē selues the scripture and saied it made for thē wherein they gaue iudgement of the scripture so foloweth it that Christes church which is now the same that was then iudgeth in al controuersies which is the right and true sense Neither can it serue you to saie to the contrarie as you doe sclaunderouslie that the worde of God hauing bene moste shamefully by vs corrupted as he that hath but halfe an eye maie well see it is no reason being parties that we shoulde be iudges therein Seing that thus might the Phariseis haue saide euen of the Apostles them selues and laied to their charges partialitie because they were Christes scholers and disciples and so parties to the cause whiche they mainteined and also for that you haue not as yeat proued nor euer shal be hable to proue that Christes church hath euer erred in the faith or the heade thereof at anie time deliuered to the church any tradition or erroniouse opinion whereby the worde of God hath bene corrupted Which assertion of youres being moste directly against the scriptures bearing witnes so manifestly Math. 14. 16. Ioan. 14. alibi of the continuance of the churche incorrupted so often auouched by you and being the only fundation of this plea of youres that we be the Phariseis and you Christes true Apostles me thinketh you should haue done well once in so often affirming it to haue proued by one sentence of scripture or some approued auctor and not facingly to saye that he that hathe but halfe an eye maie see that it is so or elles till you coulde haue proued it it had bene more for your honestie to haue absteined from suche vnmercifull and vnchristianlike demeanure as you vse towardes bothe the church of Christe and the head thereof Where you saye that I will haue the scripture reiected there you reporte vntrulie of me This I saie that scripture not thorough anie imperfection or insufficiencie that is in it but onelie by occasiō of stubborne wrangling and contentiouse natures who neuer will giue ouer the opinion that they haue once conceiued euerie one being at apoint to receiue no other interpretation thereof thē to them shal seme good is not hable to ende and determine al cōtrouersies moued vpō the lettre thereof and that therfore euen as in the lawes of the realme whiche were to decide all controuersies sufficient so that the lawe being broughte euerie man woulde furthewithe yealde to it because they will not there be iudges by the prince appointed to cut of all altercations and to preserue the realme in quiet who when the councellours bothe of the one parte and the other haue contentiouslie disputed the matter eache of them affirming that the lawe is on his side shall by opening the meaning thereof ende the strife So is it not to be thought but that God forseing the innumerable sectes of heretikes that shoulde trouble his churche of whome there shoulde be no one no not of them that directlie blush not to teache Suencfeldius that there ought to be no scripture at all that woulde not colourablie defende the same by scripture it is not I saie to be
or perhappes the solemne cuppe councell in Martin Luthers house at Wittemberg as I am to defend the couÌ„cel of Nice Ephesus or LateranuÌ„ Well M. Nowell neither shall you at this tyme bring furthe youre Confession of Augspurg or the solemne conclusion agreed vpon at Martin Luthers house nor I wil alleage Howe S. AusteÌ„ renounced the auctoritie of the Nicene councell either the councell of Nice Ephesus or Lateranum but the scriptures c. then I saie you coulde proue hereby that I who trusting vppon the goodnesse of the cause quit for the tyme the alleaging of the councelles were of the minde that the auctoritye of the councelles made nothing for the decision of controuersies And that this was the meaning of S. Augustine to relinquishe onelye for that present tyme the auctoritie of the councell off Nice that the heretike might forsake his schismaticall councell not that he estemed either the councell of Nice or anie other laufull generall councell so lightly as yow suppose bothe this aduerbe nunc nowe whose nature is to limite and restreine whiche yowe fearing lest it woulde marre all the marcket and perceiuing that it woulde be harde to deceiue the learnedersorte with this place alleaged trulie in A lie by omission 65. the latine but left owt in the englishe thinking that youre parte shoulde be well enough plaied if yowe were able to blinde the ignorant and vnlearned bothe dothe this I saie argue the meaning of S. Austen to be as I saie and not as yow pretende and also that he dothe euerie where against the Donatistes alleage Concilium plaenarium totius orbis the Lib. 1. de baptis contra Donat. cap. 18. Epist 118. ad Ianuar. fo 72. a. 3. S. Austen beelied â—â— Howe the scripture is iudge and howe it is not iudge of aâ— controuersies full councell of all the world and saieth of councelles quorum est in ecclesia saluberima auctoritas whose auctoritie is in the churche moste wholesome It is not to be forgotten in this place that where S. Austen calleth the scripture by the name of a witnes yowe conclude that he calleth the scripture iudge Which if he had done might easelie haue bene answered to be true also when the churche hathe declared what the scripture ment As the lawes of all countries are the iudges of suche controuersies as rise there but not the iudges alone because they be subiecte to wrangling interpretations and therefore requier an other iudge to iudge their meaning But seing S. Austen calleth not the scripture iudge but witnes yowe haue delt vntrulie by concluding more vpon his wordes then is in them To the places brought here by yowe owt of Chrisostome Fol. 72. â— â–ª I answere that we saie as muche in the commendation of holie scripture as he doeth For none of those places make holie scripture the onelie sufficient triall of all controuersies Therefore where as they saie we muste beleue scripture rather then men that if we woulde beleue them we shoulde fall in to no errours we graunte it to be true in scripture as it is deliuered by the fathers and expounded by the church For the first place of S. Hierom he there reiected an allegation of vncerteine auctoritie commonly called ApocriphuÌ„ about the person of that Zachary which was slaine betwene Matth. 23. the teÌ„ple and the altar which because he knewe was not receiued by vniuersall tradition there remained no other grounde of prouing it but by scripture where sith it was not he might well saie it is as easely contemned as proued M. Nowelles ignorance in the writâ—nges off the fathers The laste place non adferamus stateras dolosas c. is not S. Hieromes as yow trusting ouer much Gratianus to whom belike yow haue recourse for youre auctorities owt of the doctours to auoide either furder paine either elles because yow delight not muche in suche companie reporte it here Lib. 2. de baptis cap. 6. to be It is taken owt of S. Austin M. Nowell a token that manie a man speaketh to vse the olde Englishe prouerbe of Robin hood that neuer shot in his bow and maketh nothing against me who wishe you would in dede way thinges with lesse deceitefull waightes of scripture theÌ„ you doe The places here noted owt of S. Austen and Chrisostom B. 14. touching the conference of one place of scripture with an other of the darcke and obscure with the clere and light are brought to proue conference to be good and proffitable which we denie not But that which we denie and therfore yow shoulde haue proued neither those places nor anie other that yow haue alleaged doe proue First that allwaies suche conference can assure vs of the true meaning of the scripture secondarily that in this conferring of places there is no difficultie varietie or vncerteintie which we affirme and proue to be because to one man to the Lutheran it semeth that hoc est corpus meum this is my bodie and verbum caro factum est the word is made flesh are places of like phrase and speache to yow M. Nowell it semeth that Ego sum vitis vera I am a true vyne is like to this This is my bodie Why yow will saie I haue proued this by Chrisostome who saieth Ad ipsum diuinae scripturae scopum accedamus quae Chrisost in 2. cap. Gen. Homil 13. seipsam interpretatur and againe Sacra scriptura seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Let vs come to the marcke of the holie scripture whiche expoundeth it selfe The holie scripture expouÌ„deth it selfe and suffereth not the hearer to erre I knowe that these be Chrisostomes wordes I knowe that they make nothing for your purpose I knowe and be it knowen to all men that they are most shamefully by yowe abused and mangled For whereas Chrisostome confuting the errour of those that grounding them selues vpon this place of Genesis inspirauit in faciem eius Gen. 2. spiraculum vitae and he breathed vpon his face the breathe of life mainteined that the soule of man was off the same essence withe God where I saie Chrisostome specially in this pointe saieth that the scripture expoundeth it selfe you make him generally to saye that the scripture dothe so in all doubtes The whiche to persuade the better whereas the laste of those two sentences of Chrisostome by yowe alleaged hathe thus quamuis sacra scriptura quum nos tale Chrisostomes wordes mangled by M. Nowell quiddam docere vult seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Allthough the holye scripture when it wyll teache vs anye suche thinge expoundeth it selfe and suffereth not the hearer to erre yowe mangling the sentence cutt awaie the middle wordes quum nos tale quiddam docere vult when it will teache vs anie such thing lest by those wordes the reader might vnderstande that Chrisostome gaue there no general rule but spake onely of that special pointe
or some other like vnto it If this were not youre meaning M. Nowell why cut you of the worde quaÌ„uis at the beginning and these other in the middest Tell vs some other cause if you can Next after these auctorities you alleage a treatie of one fo 73. a. Borowed of the coÌ„fession of wittenberge Tit. de Eccles that you set furth Rhetorically calling him an auncient auctor printed withe Chrisostome and of long time taken for him to proue that the churche must be tried by the scriptures To this place I answere that whether it be Chrisostomes owne worcke from whence it is taken or no this is a thing moste certeine that it is to be warily readen as the boke which hath thrust into it if it be Chrisostomes owne or anie other catholike mannes by some false Arrian heretike manie poisoned and perniciouse sentences for the maintenaunce of the Arrians heresie Emongest other to note to you one or two euen in the. 48. homilie whiche is the verie nexte before this that you alleage here the Catholikes for mainteining the equalitie of Christe with God the father are nombred emongest heretikes and in the. 45. they are called heretikes that holde that the blessed trinitie is equall of like substance and auctoritie And therefore in suche places as this auctor who so euer it be dissenteth from the common faithe of Christes churche we haue iust cause to suspect that there this heretike who hath it appeareth ouerronne the whole hath dipped in his fingres and therefore that we reiect As in this place it is likely that he thought to make a waie for his heresies by chalenging to be tried by the scripture onelie the common request of the Arrian heretikes because the worde they saide Homousion was not to be founde in the scriptures But nowe if these wordes were Chrisostomes owne and not put in by the heretike yeat foloweth it not that because the churche is to be tried by the scriptures onelie that therefore all other questions maie be decided by the same alone For God whose wisedome diuised whose holie spirite brethed whose finger wrote the scriptures as for heretikes that coÌ„temne the auctoritie of the churche he hath so disposed them as Tertullian writeth that they might ministre them Lib. de praescript aduers haeres matter so hathe he againe for them that shal be content humblie to rest in the lappe of the same made that matter by the scriptures so clere that a catholike man maie be bolde to prouoke an heretike yea all the heretikes in the worlde to dispute by scripture onelie of that question whiche and where is the true churche And suerlie so was it expedient that it shoulde be that the churche whiche shoulde iudge of the true sense and meaning of the scriptures shoulde by the scriptures be so euidentlie proued that about that their might be no wrangling As it is not to be merueiled therefore if anie catholike man giue councell to proue the church by the scriptures the scriptures speaking of the churche as hath S. Austen more plainelie then they â—narrat in psal 30 doe of Christe him selfe and therto being writteÌ„ so euideÌ„tly that the textes making for the trial therof nede no interpretatioÌ„ Lib. de vnitate ecdes ca. 16 so can you not reason that all other controuersies in semblable wise must be tried by the scripture because the scripture is more ambiguouse in other maters and because the church is proued so plainelie that it might afterwarde hauing the continuall assistence of Goddes holie spirite and being the piller of truthe assuer vs being in doubte of the true meaning of scripture And thus muche for answere to your long place alleaged to so little purpose out of that auncient auctor printed withe Chrisostome and of long time takeÌ„ for him By whose auctoritie lest the worekes of S. Clement making so muche against youre newe A sleight of M. nowells doctrine might get anie credite being here alleaged by this auncient auctor printed with Chrisostome and of long time taken for him you toke youre pen in to youre hande and cut that sentence clene awaie Hauing nowe spent youre store of testimonies brought fo 74. b. 9 by you to proue that the scripture alone ought to be the iudge of all controuersies you returne to youre olde plea so often auouched and neuer proued that we be the phariseis and therfore can not be the true churche of god that you alleage scriptures against vs as the Apostles did against the phariseis of whom and vs you saye furder as foloweth And I am suer that the high prieste withe his Iuishe churche Nowell b. 29. was able to saye as muche for the ordinarie succession of the highe priestes his predecessours euen from Aaron vntill his time for antiquitie for consent and for vniuersality against Christe and his Apostles so fewe in comparison and as it semed latelye start vp as yowe are able to saye for youre churche or againste vs. But yeat we doe thinke that the worde of God as it was alleaged by Christe and hys Apostles againste the saide high prieste and his churche so maye it and ought it allso to be alleaged by vs againste youre highe prieste and youre churche cet What so euer the Phariseis had to saye againste the Apostles Dorman for them selues they had not this to saye whiche we haue againste you that theire churche was by the testimonies of the Scriptures promised to continue for euer The Apostles proued to them the contrary oute of the scriptures if you can doe the lyke to vs and shewe by euident scriptures that the churche of Christe shoulde for the space of fiftene hundred or nine hundred yeares either be ouerthrowen and at the length restored by a newe Messias we renounce the benefite off succession we giue ouer antiquitie consent vniuersalitye and what so euer elles Thus alleaged the Apostles the worde of God against the Phariseis Thus must you alleage it against vs if you will alleage it at all And whether you be so or no the true church of god seing it Nowell fol. 75. a. 23. is in question and a greater doubte and controuersie emongest men I am suer then can be aboute the sense of anye place off the scripture yow shall neuer be hable to make anie exception to the scripture as no competent iudge in controuersies but we shall be able ten tymes more to make exception to youre Pope and his churche as no indifferent nor meete iudge We make no exception nor euer did againste the scripture Dorman as of it selfe an incompetent iudge to determine controuersies This we saye that the frowardenes of men addicted to mainteine their once receiued opinions maketh that the scripture is not alone sufficient to decide the same till the church haue giuen sentence betwene those that shall thus contende which is the true meaning of the scripture How the scripture decideth controuet
secte or elles be compelled to recant youre wordes Nowe for answere to youre scripture moste vntruly applied I saye that in that sense which Christe forbiddeth vs to call men oure fathers that is as oure chiefe and speciall fathers either carnall or spirituall the Benedictines Cistertians Carmelites c. neuer called anie man their father acknowledging allwaies and confessing that that father is but one god him selfe which is in heauen M. Nowell marching on lustely in his lies and vntrue application of scripture addeth And continuing and accōplishing the schisme first begonne in Nowell fol. 55. a. 1. 1. Cor. 1. S. Paules time after the example of those who saied I am off Paule I of Cephas I of Apollo saing I am of Dominicke I of Benedicte I of Frauncis who also maie directly answere S. Paule asking was Paule or anie other sauing only Christe crucified for yow Yea maie the franciscanes saie S. Frauncis was crucified for vs of his familie and beholde the woundes in his side handes and feete It lotheth me to see howe shamefully yow abuse the Dorman moste holie and sacred scriptures The schisme that was emongest the Corinthians was in a most necessary pointe of doctrine to witte about the grace conferred in the sacrament of baptisme eache of them thinking that the vertue thereof depended vpon the excellencie of the ministre that ministred it as bothe by the texte it selfe and the iudgement of S. Austen thereupon is moste euidently to be seene Nowe is this diuersitie of professions in religiouse De praedes Sanctorum cap. 5. lib. 3. contra Crescon Grammat cap. 1◠men not in doctrine or faithe as was theirs but in maner and trade of life which all though it be in some streighter in other some looser yeat because all tende to one ende that is to the perfection of the ghospell allthough not by one meanes and agree beside in the three substantiall pointes of their profession chastirie pouertie and obedience yow can by no meanes call them schismes It is a fowle lye therefore M. Nowell that yow labour here to colour with the pretense of goddes worde to saie that religiouse men doe folowe the example of those who saide I am of Paule I of Cephas c. Who agreing all in one faithe and doctrine how euer they differ in certeine outewarde obseruations saye not neither as yow also vntruly reporte I am of Dominike I off Benedicte c. But I am of that ordre that S. Dominike was that is to saie I haue professed to serue God in suche sorte as S. Dominike while he liued did and so of the rest none of them in the meane season preferring their patrones the one before the other or iudging them selues to be the better for folowing this rule or that but leauing the iudgement thereof to him who in the daye of the reuelation of his iust iudgement shall giue to Rom. 2. Six lies in 8. lynes euery one according to his worckes To conclude therfore you haue here in eight lines made no fewer thē six lies The first is in calling the diuerse orders of religion that are in the churche popishe schismes The seconde in saing that the professours therof haue forsaken Christes religiō The. 3. that they haue forsaken his name The 4. that they haue chosen to be called religiouse The 5. that they haue chosen to be so called by a speciall name of a seuerall religion is a lye if you meane as it is to be thought you doe for otherwise it is no schisme by the worde religion religion in faithe ot in maners or trade of life The sixte that you charge thē to folowe the exāple of the schismatikes of S. Paules time betwene whome there is no maner of resemblaunce at al as hathe bene declared So that now hauing quit your selfe like a propre man in these fewe lines you will take a conscience to lye anie more for a while and therfore you dare not precisely affirme that the franciscanes doe saye that S. Frauncis was crucified for them but saie that they maie saie so Blessed be God you can not charge them M. Nowell that anie suche thing they doe saie whiche seing you can not how holdeth the argument I praie you whereby you proue them schismatikes suche as were in S. Paules time because they maie so saye Nowe M. Nowel what maie not you saye and so proue yourselfe not only a schismatike but also an heretike if all thinges whiche you maie saye you should be also charged in dede to saye You maie saye for some of your schoolefelowes haue saide so much Lucas Sternberger of omuluke in Morauia Staphil in Englishe fol. 112. a. Instit li. 3. cap. 23. before you that to worship the name of the blessed Trinitie is to imagine falsely three Goddes you maye saie and must saye if you will folowe your Maister Caluin that God is the auctor of their damnation that are damned woulde you nowe be contented because you maye saie thus and yeat woorse toe if worse maye be that one shoulde conclude against you that you be a schismatike or an heretike And yeat who seeth not that suche a conclusion were muche more liker to be true youre felowes and Maister hauing taught suche opinions before then this wherewith you burden these pore Franciscanes of whome there was neuer yeat anie I beleue that had so idle a braine as to imagine so vainely of S. Frauncis and wickedly bothe as you haue done You procede in your pastime and saye If S. Paule aske againe is Iesus Christe diuided Yea maie a false Nowell Hypocrite one of the secte of the Iesuites saye for we haue the one parte of Iesus therof called Iesuites and haue left the other parte Christe to the seely soules abroade to holde them selues cōtented therewith and with the name of Christians therof deriued When you speake off a secte of Iesuites I knowe not Dorman what you meane I maie gesse that you meane those religiouse men that are called of suche as knowe them The cōpanie or societie of Iesus If that be your meaning what haue you to saye to them Mary saie you one of that secte maie saye Iesus Christe is diuided And you maie not you also saye so if you list M. Nowell Who doubteth but that you are in as good possibilite to saye so as they or anie other Why then because bothe you and they and all other maie saye so are you therfore and they and all other schismatikes hipocrites and so furthe But why maye they saie so more then anie other For so the because they are called Iesuites For so the they be not so called truly Loke in the decrees of the The profession of the clerkes of the societie of Iesus Late councell holden at Trent and there you maie learne how they be called They beare the name as I saide of a companie gathered together in the name of Iesus to serue him wholly and
That whiche foloweth is but a common place of railing wherein because you talke but in youre facultie I can the lesse blame you And to reason sadlye with an outragious rayler were but you wot well to preache to frantike Tom of Bedlem The foundation you saye of altars belles banners candels Nowell fol. 67. a. 3. c. leaneth to this reason of mine It was so in the shaddowe therfore it must be so now in the body in the truth in our church This reason you thinke you saie that I like as well as the former reason of one heade and that reason it is that so I shoulde thinke No M. Nowell you are fouly deceaued if you write as Dorman you thinke But what It semeth to me that you foregtte yourselfe Will you I praye you on high dayes when you distribute those holye misteries of youres weare no cope Or if you doe muste the foundation of the wearing thereof be grounded vppon the Iuish ceremonies No you will answere I weare it because the Quenes Maiesties iniunctions will haue me doe so And oure priestes weare them because the lawes of the churche will haue them doe so Iff of youre doinges the Princes lawe maye be the grownde Whie maye not the churche be the same of oures Now if the Prince may commaunde the ministre to weare a cope Why maye not the same commaunde the bishop to weare a mitre albes and tunicles Whye maye not by the same commaundement altars belles banners candels plentie of golde and siluer be brought into the churche And then if the Prince maye commaunde it why maye not the churche of Christe doe as muche Thus reteine we these thinges as commaunded by the church not as vsed by the Iues. Who euer vseth them so is a Iue who so vseth them so sinneth deadly Neither is the reason like why I should reason from ceremonies in the lawe appointed but for the while as you woulde haue me to that by whiche I argue from thinges foreshadowed in the Synagoge to continue in the church for euer You procede and after my maner of reasoning you aske Nowell a. 13. why you maye not also reason for the scriptures to be had in a language that the people do the vnderstande For priestes to haue wiues for images to be taken awaye seing that in the Iuish churche all the people men women and children had the scripture in a language that they did well vnderstand the Leuites and priestes had wiues and children seing that in that church there were no Images especiallie when reason beside the lawe proueth that it ought to be so Who can denie suche a frende his requeste Will yow Dorman gladlye learne why my argumente shoulde holde and not youres Listen a while and you shall knowe Firste for the Scriptures I take not here vpon me to resolue that question whether it be expedient that they shoulde be in the vulgare tonge or no. For I knowe it is impertinent to oure matter But to youre question I answere that whereas you saie that women and children had the scripture in a language that they did well vnderstand that is once false for firste that Hebrue tongue wherein the scriptures were written was not the common tongue that the people vsed emongest them selfes but suche as being peculier to the learned coulde not beinge vttred by the prieste be vnderstande excepte he did firste expounde and interprete it Nexte beinge writen without pointes that is without anye vowell at all noted in the texte as we haue it nowe pointed when or by whom it is not certeinlie knowen but by the learned Iues them selues as it is thought beinge gathered together in a councell at a towne called Tiberia it foloweth that the vnlearned coulde as euill reade it as vnderstande it beinge readen till it were expounded And for this cause the 72. elders had onelie power and auctoritie to interprete the scripture and to reade it to the people as here in the Chapiter by yow alleaged Moyses dyd This beinge Exod. 24. most true as for the first point we haue the testimonie of that learned bishop Theodoretus the B. of Cyrus for the nexte that of longe time the hebrue tongue remained vnpointed the consent of the beste stories howe had then the people of the Iuishe church men women and children the scripture in a language that they did well vnderstande being readen by other The wordes of Theodoretus are these Vocem Hebraicam arbitroresse sacram Quemadmodum enim In quaest in Gen. q. 60 in templis Graecorum quidam sunt literarum characteres peculiares quos sacros appellarunt Sic deus omnium per Moysen donauit hanc linguam non naturalem sed ad docendum aptam Siquidem cum reliqui omnes loquantur lingua gentis suae in qua nati fuerint nati in Italia Italorū vtantur vòce qui in Graecia voce Graecorum qui in Perside Persarum qui in Egipto lingua Aegiptiorum loquantur nihilominus nulli pueri Hebraeorum reperiuntur qui statim hebraica lingua vtuntur sed eorum apud quos nati sunt Deinde cum parum adoleuerint docentur literarum characteres discunt literis scripturam diuinam hebraica voce scriptam That is to saie The hebrue tonge I thinke to be holie for as in the Greke temples there be certeine peculier characters of lettres whiche they call holie euen so the God of all by Moyses hathe geuen this tongue not naturall but apte to teache for whereas all other do speake the tonge of theire owne nation wherein they were borne and they whiche be borne in Italie vse the Italian tongue being borne in Grece speake the greke tongue in Persia the Persian and in Egipte the Egiptian tongue yet notwithstandinge none of the children of the Hebrues be founde whiche from the beginninge vse the hebrue tongue but their language emongest whom they be borne Afterwarde when they waxe somewhat bigge they be taughte the caracters and letters and learne in lettres holie scripture writen in the Hebrue tongue Yowe here M. Nowell that the hebrewe tongue wherin the old lawe was written was no naturall tongue that the characters and letters were peculiar that is to saie not to be vnderstande of euery man and for that cause called holy as those were that the Grekes had in their temples Yow here that it was not learned by nature as are the Englishe french Italian and other vulgare tongues but by arte as are the latine Greke and Hebrue with vs. So that as the readinge of scripture in latine helpethe nothinge the vnlearned Englishman no more did the reading of the lawe in the Hebrewe tongue proffit the vnlearned till the reader did expounde it For whiche cause by the lawe the people was commaunded to Malach. 2. demaunde the lawe at the priestes mowthe who kepte it And thus much for the lawe for your reason that they that are bounde to obey goddes lawe ought to vnderstande it
thought that he woulde in this case make lesse prouision for his churche then a temporall king will for the due administration of his lawes and the preseruing of vnitie emongest his subiectes Neither is it anie iniurie to the scripture or derogatiō to the maiestie thereof that the malice of men maketh it lesse sufficient to condemne heresies especially seing as Tertullian saieth the scriptures haue bene Lib. de praescript haeretic 1. Cor. 11. by the will off God so disposed as that they might ministre matter to heretikes seing it is writtē that there must be heresies which cā not be withowt the scriptures To this obiection of myne that the scriptures be so written that there was neuer heretike yeat that dyd not alleage scripture for the maintenaūce of the same and that thought not by the scriptures him selfe wel able to defende the same note I besech the good reader that M. Nowel maketh here no answere at al. Onely he maketh against this an other obiectiō that so the pope maye vnder b. 5. the name of the church mainteine and defende all errours and superstitions Whiche if it were true what woulde folowe other of this conclusion but that there shoulde be no iudge at all Is not this a propre kinde of answering trowe you But because the matter shall not remaine in that incerteintie I will M. Nowell answere youre reason although you woulde not answere mine I saye therefore that the pope as heade of Christes churche that is to saye defining or decreeing anye thinge concerning the affaires and busines thereof neuer erred yeat nor euer shall I proue it by auctoritye and by reason By the auctoritie of oure Sauiour him selfe who praing that Peters faithe might not faile coulde Lucae 22. not but obteine Whiche priuileage so obteined seing that Christe builded his churche not to continue for Peters lyfe tyme but for euer we maye not doubte but that it was giuen also to his successours S. Augustine as I noted before Epis 165. applied the wordes of Christ spoken of the Phariseis sitting in Moises chaire Quae dicunt facite quae autem faciunt Matth. 23. nolite facere Loke what they bid you doe doe it but do not as they do to the bishoppes of Rome succeding Peter and addeth that in so doing oure faithe shal be suer and certeine as the whiche being placed not in man but on God can neuer be scattred with anye tempest of schisme You haue the auctoritie of the Scripture you haue the iudgement of S. Augustine that Peters faithe shall continue in him and in his successours that to doe as they commaunde is to make oure faithe suer and defensible against the tempestes of all schismaticall stormes Now harken to reason Christe promised for euer to abide with his churche S. Paule calleth it the Matt. 28. 1. Timo. 3. piller of truthe If Christe be with it it can not erre if it be the piller of truth it admitteth no falsehode if it can admit no falsehode the pope whiche is the heade thereof and appointed by God to gouerne it in earthe can not in the gouernement thereof erre For if the heade might erre then might the whole body which is bound to folow the heade And thus bothe by auctoritie and reason by experience of these 1500. yeares it appeareth that there is greate difference betwene the two likelihodes that you put in the pope and in other priuate men touching the interpretatiō of the scripture And therefore vppon the ouerthrowe of this downe commeth all that you builde thereupon eitherin this place or elles where Hauing nowe taken youre pleasure sufficiently at vs comparing vs with Annas and Caiphas calling vs theeues aduersaries of the ghospell guiltie of manye heresies corruptions of religion and false superstitions you entre in to a common place of councelles whereof you saye as foloweth But the aduersaries off the Ghospell deale thus with vs Nowell b. 20. The Pope and all hys cleargye being guiltie off manye heresies c. and thereof accused doe assemble them selues together in a councell in the whiche nothing maye be moued muche lesse determined but suche as pleaseth the Pope him selfe there is enquirie made of vs who doe accuse them thereoff and offer to proue it and there vnhearde and vnseene we are condemned of our aduersaries c. Yow here note in the margent for the proufe hereof Dorman that nothing maie be moued in the councell but suche as pleaseth the pope Pighius in his 6. booke and first chapitre of his Hierarchie This place yowe alleaged before As I tolde you then so doe I nowe that you haue beelied Pighius Supra fol. 24. b. For he saieth not as you doe here that nothing maie be moued in the councell but suche as pleaseth the pope He saieth Haud feré fit almoste it is not otherwise not denieng as you saye he dothe that it can not be otherwise The wordes of Pighius note rather the greate diligence of the pope whiche is suche that when all the worlde shall meete together in a generall councell they can not for the moste parte name anye thinge to be refourmed or concluded that the Bishoppe of Rome with his learned councell about him hath not before forseene and handled then take awaye libertie from anye man to moue anie doubte to be resolued not considered before by the pope That the pope moueth ordinarily suche doubtes to the councell i st that offende you be angry with S. Peter his predecessour who practised the same first in the generall councell mentioned in the Actes of thapostles You accuse the pope and his and Act. 15. offer to proue it It is in deede the cōmon bragge of you al to saie you can proue vs Phariseis corrupters of religiō that the churche of Christe hathe vtterly failed and so furth The whiche if yow feare to proue in generall councelles yeat yow might me thinketh giue vs a taste of your prouffes in youre poisoned writinges To that that yowe complaine that yow are condemned vnhearde and vnsene we saie as yow gessed we woulde that yow might be hearde if yow listed against the whiche answere of oures yow replie How we are called and how we maie be heard let Iohn Husse Nowell fo 70. a. 2 called by the emperour Sigismunde his saulfe conduct vnder his greate emperiall seale to the councell of Constance with Hierom of Prague who bothe were contrary to the faithe giuen them by the greatest christian prince in the world condemned and burned to asshes be an eternall witnesse yea let their owne decree made in the saide councell which was that no faithe nor promise is to be kepte to anie heretike nor that anie man by anie promise standeth bounde to an heretike c. be a perpetuall testimonye off the same Beholde howe manie lyes in howe fewe lynes Iohn Dorman Husse being called to the councell of Constance brake the conditions of his saulfe conduct
8. cause in the conclusion of my firste boke Reade the discourse annexed vnto the Apologie of Staphilus latelie set forthe in English Reade the fortresse You shall The first parte the last chap. finde there a numbre of your assertions holden generallie of al protestantes to be olde condemned heresies in the first six hundred yeares you shall finde that the doctrine of Iohn Caluin youre Maister bothe in the doctrine of the blessed sacrament of the altar and of baptisme is stuffed with a nombre of olde heresies condemned also in the primitiue churche Discharge youre selues first of these heresies and then saye that we saie onelie that you be heretikes We saie not onely that we be the churche but we proue it also and haue made it moste euident that you can by no meanes be the churche As of late hathe bene proued answere it when you can In some countries if the partie accused pleade not guilty and saye a. 19. Nowell naie to the crime obiected if he by diuerse tormentes enforced to confesse doe still mainteine his naye he is discharged and let goe But it can not helpe vs accused as heretikes to denie the false accusation c. I blame you not M. Nowell though for heretikes yow Dorman clayme the fauour that is wont to be shewed to murderers theues and other malefactours allthough this reason of youres that heretikes the greatest offenders that are for no crime is so greate as the faulte of heresie shoulde haue this fauour because other malefactours lesse offending haue it woulde scarselie be founde sounde if it shoulde be by the rigorouse rules of logicke examined But it nedeth not it hath other faultes enough For allthough in some couÌ„tries the parties accused denieng the faulte in suche wise as you saye be vpon their denial discharged and let go yeat is there no countrie where if the partie accused for thefte would confesse the dede but saye it were no faulte he shoulde be be so discharged the lawes coÌ„demning theft by deathe and let go And yeat this is youre case M. Nowell For you confesse the dede You denie for example sacrifice and praier for the deade you stande in defence of it as did Aâ—rius a Epiph. lib. 3. haeresi 75. condemned heretike aboue 13. hundred yeares ago Onelie your denial is that it is no heresie which thinge if it might be laufull for euerye heretike to doe and to escape euerye one giuing to heresie the title of true doctrine howé manye thinke you woulde be condemned Did not Michael Seruetus put to deathe by the procurement of Iohn Caluin at Geneua denye that he was an heretike as you doe Did Caluin anye wrong to him in condemning him who saide he coulde bring as good testimonie of his innocencye oute of Gods worde as you saye you can for youre heresies Did Cranmer any wrong to Ioane of kent because she saide she was no heretike Doe not the Anabaptistes dailye saye the same It is toe greate an absurditye M. Nowell and sauoreth of your cholere ouer much that while you labour to bring the catholikes in hatred as though they showed you lesse fauour then they doe to theeues murderers and other offendours you forget that in so doing you shewe youre selfe M. Nowell playeth the proctour for all heretikes a proctour for heretikes of all sortes and that yeat you misse of your purpose the fauour of the lawes extended to heretikes being greater then is practised vppon anie other trangressours For make the coÌ„parison aright and you shal make it betwene a theefe sorie for his theft or murderer for his offence and an heretike denieng and repenting his heresies Nowe who knoweth not in this case who hathe the greatest fauour the heretike vppon repentaunce being receiued to mercy whiche fauoure other offendours haue not To make suche false and vntrue comparisons as you doe if it procede not of ignoraunce M. Nowell surelye it commeth of malice and that is worse Where you saye A lye 64. b. 6. that I deuise God to be absent that I saye that he is dombe I saide not so Why doe you falsely burden me with that whiche I neuer thought I sayde that he is In my boke fo 9. b not present with vs in suche sorte as that we maye see him and speake with him face to face to be resolued at his mouthe of suche doubtes and questions as shoulde rise emongeste vs. Saie not you the same Doe you call him then dombe or saye that he is absent If you doe not why I more then you Nowell fol. 71. a. vnto fol. 74. a. 26. in which compasse the testimonies brought to proue that only Scripture is sufficieÌ„t to determine all coÌ„trouersies are examined Dorman S. * Depecca merit libr. 1. cap. 22. Ad Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. 32. Augustine contending againste those who doe attribute Goddes grace and giftes to the the worthynesse of mennes merites concludeth thus Cedamus consentiamus auctoritati Scripturae sanctae quae nescit falli nec fallere Let vs giue place to the auctoritye of holy Scripture which can not be deceiued nor deceiue We saye with S. Austen Let vs giue place and agree to the auctoritie of the holy Scripture which can not be deceiued nor deceiue Will not two heires striuing aboute their fathers good des saie as muche as this commeth to of his testament desire that it maie be brought furthe and both of them offer to be tried by it and to stande to it and yeat the wordes being doubtefull require a iudge notwithstanding S. Augustine preferreth the Sriptures before the priuate opinion off Saint Cyprian So doe we toe and before anye other doctour disagreing from the scripture expounded to vs in generall councelles and by common consent of all nations Howe farre this sense whiche you woulde wrest out of Saint Augustins wordes that the church maie not be iudge of the true meaning of the scripture Contra epist fundament Manicheor cap. 5. is from the mynde of S. Augustine his wordes in an other place doe well witnes where he protesteth that he woulde not beleue the Ghospell if the auctoritye of the churche did not moue him thereto How often beside doth Lib. 2. contra Iulian. alibi he in writing against Iulian the Pelagian obiect to him the doctours of the church expounding the scriptures againste his opinion As for that whiche you bring oute of Saint Augustine against councelles it is falselye and vntrulye applyed For b. 10. Lib. contra MaximinuÌ„ 3. cap. 14. Saint Augustins yealding to the aduersaries whome he sawe frowardly bent to stande to the hereticall councell off Ariminum dothe no more proue him to be of the mynde to eneruate and weaken thereby the auctoritye of generall councelles then if I woulde saie to you disputing with you vpon the reall presence of Christe in the sacrament and knowing that you were as wholly bent to mainteine the Confession of Augspurg
warned vs that their propertie is whē scripture is brought to them either vtterly to denie it either elles if they admit it to peruert it with false and vntrue gloses concludeth in this wise Ergo non ad Scripturas prouocandum est nec in his constituendum certamen quibus aut nulla aut incerta aut parum certa victoria est Therefore that is to saye we maye not appeale to the scriptures neither is the strife to be ordered in them by whome either there is no victorie to be gotten either vncerteine or not verie certeine Nowe that you haue done with Pighius you flee vpon Hosius as fierce as a ramping Lion of Cottes holde of whome you saie as foloweth Nowell fol. 87. a. 17. Hosius youre greate estate for learning and vertue c. in comparing the ghospell written in paper and inke with the churche which he calleth the liuely gospell as though the other shoulde be called the dende ghospell goeth as neare to Swenckfielde as foure pence doe to a grote I thinke you will not youre selfe denie if you were well Dorman apposed M. Nowell but that the lettre of the scripture compared with the sense thereof is deade From whiche phrase and maner of speache howe farre wyde are those wordes Ioan. 6. of oure Sauioure The lettre sleeth it is the Spirite that quickeneth Although yowe might if you had not made a vowe to interprete all thinges to the worst haue giuen a more gentle interpretation to these wordes off Hosius It is a true proposition that Hosius vsed that scripture is A. 27. the worde not of God but of the diuell as heretikes doe alleage it Why seing that Hosius toke it out of S. Hierome as yow confesse doe yow not refell and confute it but vsing youre auctoritie barely denie it Why reherse yowe not his M. Nowell alleageth Hosius wordes falsely wordes wholly but cutt awaie these in the middest of the sentence cui absit vt quicquam anteponendum esse putemus before the whiche scripture God forbid we shoulde thinke anie thing to be to be preferred For so hath Hosius Scriptura quomodo profertur a catholicis est verbum dei cui absit vt quicquam anteponendum esse putemus quomodo profertur ab In fine lib. 4. contra Brentium haereticis est verbum diaboli The scripture as it is brought furth by the catholikes is the worde of God before the whiche God forbid we shoulde thinke anie thing to be to be preferred as it is alleaged of the heretikes it is the worde of the diuell Yowe sawe well inough if yowe shoulde not haue cutt awaie these wordes all the grace of the comparison in this pointe had bene marred by Hosius humble and reuerent speaking of the scriptures but so were yow blinded with malice that all other yowe thought woulde haue bene as blinde as yowe and no man haue noted so foule a faulte Yow staie not here but to bring Hosius vttrely out of cōceit and to deface him with all men you charge him withe comparing the scriptures Dauids psalmes withe rymes onlye Nowell fo 88. b. 11 written by princes in oure daies with a blasphemouse derision in matching them with fabulouse poēsies Hosius compareth not the scriptures withe rymes but Dorman Hosius once againe misused by M. Nowell sed by M. Nowell with metres quibus dei laudes celebret to praise God by With suche meetres what contempte or contumelie is it I praie yow to compare the scriptures Are not Dauides Psalmes suche meetres yow haue therefore once againe delt vnhonestly with Hosius to snatche a parte of his wordes and to make youre vauntage therof leauing those that most manifestly declare his meaning He matcheth not at all the scriptures with fabulouse poesies that is an other lie of you A lye 73. res He saieth that as learned and vnlearned write poêsies euerie where so maie euerie kinge or prince or anie other write to the honour and praise of God without restreint The comparison is not betwene the scriptures and poêsies but betwene the libertie that men haue to write of the one argument or the other And thus is this greate blasphemouse blast God be thancked well ouerblowen The Iues are not suffered by the pope to vtter most horrible A lye 74. b. 27. blasphemies against Christe It is a horrible lye We haue not giuen ouer preaching of goddes worde fo 89. a. 16 Lett those countries where Catholike religion florisheth conuince yow to be a liar Where there are in most meane A lye 75. townes mo sermones in euerie of them in one daie then are commonly in London in three They be ordinarie also thorough oute the whole yeare not bought with monie as youres be We barre not the people from reading and hearing A lye 76. it To that I answered before We saie not that the holie ghoste vseth to come from aboue into oure churche without all helpe of meanes as hearing preaching or reading A lye 77. That is the fistht lie made within the compasse off these fewe wordes Thus yow see good readers I trust euidently that he comparison made by me betwene the protestantes and the Swenckefeldians is in that pointe of building vpon like groundes the one parte to abolishe scripture the other to ouerthrowe the generall heade of Christes churche in earthe like and therefore trulie made The whiche is confirmed the more for that that as I haue shewed before the aduersarie not susteining to trie the comparison by such wordes as I made it leaueth oute their reasons wherein they meete and then crieth Lo Sir yow see a greate likenesse betwene them fol. 84 a. 9. Yow see beside how to compare vs with Swenckfield he hathe wrested mangled and falsified the wordes of Pighius and Hosius and laste of all charged the whole numbre of catholikes with most euident and apparent vntruthes That Cardinall Hosius was impudently beelied and sclaundred by the Apologie of the churche of Englande that M. Nowell continuing the same addeth more matter therto The 25. Chapter ITRVST that who so euer shall reade that conformitie betwene Nowell fol. 90 a. 1. the papistes and Swenckfeldius and bothe theire heresies before declared and specially by the wordes of Pighius and Hosius him selfe shall vnderstande that Hosius was not without cause charged with some affinitie to Swenckfeldius his heresie c. Is the matter nowe come to affirnitie M. Nowell Well Dorman let it be so I nothing doubte the learned readers iudgement euen therein also Although this can not be denied but that your Apologie which yow take vpon you here to defende in the first editiō therof charged Hosius with these wordes Nos inquit ipsas scripturas quarum tot iam non diuersas modo sed etiam contrarias interpretationes adferri videmus facessere iubebimus c. VVe saieth Hosius wil bid the scriptures them selues whereof we see so many not diuerse
haue loked so farre in the 34. and 35. leafe of my firste booke Nowe to the place of Chore Dathan and Abiron of the whiche you saye Nowell B. 5. thus Concerning the reason made by Chore Dathan and Abiron that the people ought not to obeye their gouernours because they be all holye * These wordes and the lorde is emōgest them left oute by M. Nowell Dorman and that therefore the magistrates ought not to lifte them selues aboue the Lordes people it is not oure reason cet No in dede M. Nowell as you haue alleaged it it is not youre reason But if you had trulye reported it it woulde haue gone as nere to your reason as twelue pense to a shilling But you doe here as you did before with the reasons of Swenckfielde that is leaue oute the chiefe reason wherein the comparison is made and then crie oute vpon me for making suche wise comparisons Who seeth not that I compare you hereto these schismatikes refusing to obeye Moises and Aaron not because they saide they were all holy but because they added in ipsis est Dominus and the Lorde is present with the multitude as you refuse that one heade of Christes churche because Christ is present with his churche As for the wordes that you note here in the margent of youre boke multitudo sanctorum and populus domini papae as though you coulde thereby make some shewe that this place might be applyed to Chanon Chore Deane Dathan and his felowes it deserueth to be rather laughed at then answered seing that bothe it is a manifeste lye wherewith you sclaundre the cleargye who neuer called them selues the holy people of the greate Lorde of Rome as you here feine and also it is well knowen that what so euer libertyes and immunities the cleargye had the same were giuen as the faithe encreased by Emperours and kinges them selues and therefore they were moste far from the maner of reasoning vsed by these schismatikes Nowe whereas M. Dorman alleageth the Apologie as thus reasoning Nowell B. 25. that the churche hathe no neede of anie other ruler because Christ is with it truth it is if M. Dormā doe meane one only heade of the vniuersall church For Christe nedeth no suche generall gouernour seing he is bothe present him selfe continually by his spirite as he promised and also for that he hathe in euery peculier countrie and churche his Moises and Aaron that is to saye his feuerall deputies in his steede euerye where here in earth for that no one mortall man can possibly suffice to the gouernaunce of the whole worlde or churche c. If he nede gouernours of euery peculier churche where Dorman he is no lesse present then with the whole why nedeth he not aswell one chiefe heade to gouerne the whole who shall emongest so manie heades diuided into partes euerye one thinking his opinion to be best strike the stroke and preserue vnitie If yowe saie God maie so preserue euerie bishop that he fall not into heresie you put god to worke daily mo miracles then he doth to preserue the chiefe bisshop of all whiche yet you stagger to graunte as a thinge impossible The wordes folowing in youre Apologie that no one mortall man can suffice to the gouernement of the whole fo 96. a. 3. worlde or church I of my accustomed sinceritie omitted yow saye And what haue you gotten by it nowe you haue alleaged it youre selfe Verilie this that you will make all men vnderstande that god is able with you to doe no more then you list to giue him leaue but of this I haue entreated before sufficiently You saye that you are far from rebelling Nowell against youre naturall soueraigne and other gods ministers appointed to gouerne you c. But how farre M. Nowell I Dorman praie you Who made the boke of succession at home Who sounded the two traiterouse blastes against the mōstrouse regiment of women their Quene being a woman From whence were they blowen but from the lake of Gehenna Who grudgeth against the princes ordinaunce in matters indifferent and of small importance no greater then of a square cap Who made warre against their prince in Scotland Who set all Fraunce in an vprore against their king Who but that vnhappy vermine the protestants That which foloweth fol. 96. b. and 97. a. b. is answered before That the waye to ouerthrow Fol. 68. vsque ad fol. 106. heresies is not by the only scripture The 27. chapiter THIS matter hath bene sufficiently handled before in the 21. chapitre And allthough in me it be a greate faulte and highly laide to my charge to alleage thrise one place of scripture yet muste yowe good readers beare withe M. Nowell if he alleage his absurde and wicked assertions more then six times thrise and maie not in any wise twite him with the prouerbe Crambe his that to muche of one thing is naught yea allthough he neuer proue anie of them once But maie yowe not be ashamed M. Nowell so vniustly to M. Nowell repre hending other men for vnreuerent speaking of the scripture speaketh of all other most vnreuerētly him selfe charge Pighius and Hosius with vnreuerent speaking of the scripture when youre selfe in this place applie your prophane prouer be to signifie that to muche of scripture maie be nought that anie place thereof maie so often be alleaged that it shoulde become vnsauory By what auctoritie claime yow I praie yowe tell vs suche libertie that yowe maie speake of the scriptures that whiche is vnlaufull and plaine blasphemie and other maie not vse so muche as similitudes or comparisons betwene the scriptures and other prophane thinges Why is it laufull for yow so oftentimes to repeate these heathenishe wordes that it is impossible for one man assisted by gods grace for otherwise we affirme it not to gouerne the whole churche of Christe that we be like to the Phariseis and high priestes of the Iues you to Christe and his apostles that there ought no more to be one chiefe heade to gouerne the churche then one emperour to gouerne the whole worlde that the pope can not be iudge in his owne cause as though goddes cause were his owne priuate cause with suche like absurdities a nombre mo and maie not be laufull for me to alleage thrise the holie scripture of God to proue three seuerall pointes Firste that it coulde not be likely that God prouiding for his chosen The place of Deuter. alleaged by me thrise to three seuerall purposes people the Iues a chiefe and heade gouernour to ende and determine all their controuersies woulde not for his churche whiche he loueth more tendrely where he knewe shoulde be greater nede doe the like nexte to answere thereby youre foolishe reason Christe is heade of his churche and present allwaies withe it therefore there nedeth no other By which reason I saide that God shoulde haue prouided for the Iues no chiefe
Dorman vaine or euill thing neither because the Arrians and Anabaptistes vsed it neither for any other cause you haue therfore beelied me once more I acknowledge it to be bothe A lye 80. proffitable and necessarie only I saie that to ende all controuersies it is an insufficient meanes Because reiecting the determination of the churche you take vpon you as the Arrians did and the Anabaptistes doe to mainteine youre heresies by this pretensed conference of scripture not regarding that suche iudgement belongeth to the churche therefore I call yow and iustly terme you heretikes And as I doe reiect this conference that you talcke of because you vse it to that ende that these heretikes did so doe I refuse all suche scripture toe as is falsely wrested as was that whiche the diuell alleaged In whiche sense because Christe and his Apostles neuer alleaged anie I can not finde faulte with them I can not you saye deuise a waye that shoulde satisfye Nowell a. 20. all heretikes withoute all contradiction or exception on their parte I can deuise no waie in dede M. Nowell to satisfie al heretikes Dorman it passeth my power I cōfesse But God hathe deuised a waye to ouerthrowe all heresies if suche as you are woulde The way to ouerthrowe heresies be no let to his working And that is the thinge that ought to suffice vs. Will you knowe what waye it is Forsothe if this principle and grounde the which I labour to proue that Christes churche here in earthe being but one and visible hathe also one chiefe visible heade to rule and gouerne the same were thoroughly as it ought to be persuaded to all men then the heretike which nowe by coloured argumentes triumpheth ouer not onely the meaner sorte but also oftentimes many of the wiser and better learned the thinge called into question being either suche as is the question of baptising of infantes as whereof we haue no expresse scripture but onelye a tradition continued in the churche from the Apostles time and deliuered from hande to hande to vs either elles so perplexe and doubteful as the aduersarie will for his heresie bring not onely as many but mo textes also that shall seme to make for his purpose then shall the catholike as did the Arrian then shoulde I saye the heretike in al mens iudgemēt although neuer in his owne easely be discomfited and ouerthrowen For then let the Anabaptiste crie as muche as he woulde that the baptisme of infantes hathe no grounde of scripture the meanest man in a parishe woulde be able to tell him Sir the churche whiche I am bidden to giue eare to by the scripture vseth it and hathe done from the beginning this suffiseth me Againe let the Arrian bringe and heape together all the scripture that he hathe let him vse all his shiftes distinctions and gloses when he hathe all done the true catholike seketh after the interpretation of the churche that interpretation to witte that the membres agreing with the heade obserue and haue obserued vniuersally thoroughe out the whole worlde Thus if the more parte of men woulde doe as they ought neither woulde heretikes haue any list to publishe heresies their starting holes being by this wholesome remedie taken awaye neither shoulde they being brought furthe into the light be hable anie while to continue And this call I the ouerthrowing of heretikes and heresies For to persuade an indurat heretike by anye meanes I confesse it to be a thing impossible seing that not euerye man that is a true Christian can by conference of the scripture be by and by persuaded in all doubtes as you here vntruly saye he maye When partes be taken in opinions emongest learned men eache parte forcing the scriptures by conference and otherwise to make for that sense which he hathe conceiued is no man a true Christian but he that cā be satisfied in this case by the scripture Hath it not bene sene that the mainteiners of suche contrary opinions beinge for vertue and learning estemed of the worlde haue made also right good Christians to doubte And what case had Christe lefte vs in if in this perplexitie there were not a churche to directe vs if that churche had not a heade to speake to vs which being in S. Augustine and Prospers tyme Prosper lib. contra Collator cap. 10. Zozimus the Pope as you hearde before shewe vs nowe if you can why Pius the pope shoulde not be the lyke And thus you see M. Nowell I truste that you haue to muche abused bothe the Readers and me in labouring firste to persuade that I mislike the Scriptures whiche I doe in no sense or the conference thereof whiche I doe not simply but in this respecte that you contende that that waye alone is sufficient to ende all controuersies nexte in this that you altre my reason whiche is that because by this pretensed conference of youres heresies can neuer be ouerthrowen while by the subtilitye of heretikes alleaging scripture conferring scripture and that so probably that euen the best learned maye be shaken in their faithe and so heresie mainteined you make the same reason to be because there can no waye possibly be founde able to satisfie all frowarde heretikes Vppon this supposall of youres that I reiect this conference of scripture as no sufficient meane to ende all controuersies because it can not satisfie al men you aske this question And thinketh he that Popes of Rome men of suche lyfe suche Nowell b. 6. Holde the man a bowle for he will vomite partialitie suche ignorance such vntruthe such falsehode such bribery Simoniakes poisonners murtherers shal satisfie all men in all iudgementes of all causes and controuersies yea in their owne verye causes wherein they be parties and that without all exception The diuell they shall and that I may saye truly Non loqueris sed latras you speake not here M. Nowell Dorman but you barcke you reason not but you raile If all these faultes that you here heape together were in one pope at one time yeat shoulde they not be all any let why the same might not and shoulde not giue true iudgement and satisfie all good men To this I haue answered before where Cap. 3. fol. 8. b. 10 fol. 39. b. yow gaue me like occasion thither I remit the reader Yeat this I woulde faine knowe of yowe by the waie and desire yow when yow wright nexte to resolue me therein whether if these popes had the contraries to these vices that is so manie vertues yowe thinke they might giue true iudgement and satisfie all men If yow saie they could not what neded then this odiouse rehersall of so manie grieuouse faultes seing by no meanes they coulde If yowe saie that being good men they might then shewe scripture or bring reason to proue that this auctoritie is lost by euill manners In controuersies rising vpon the scripture the popes cause is not handled but gods and