mens precepts So that as Saint Peter hath censured you 1. Pet. 2.18 Yee are not redeemed from the vaine Traditions of your Fathers Besides you chuse rather to make the Fathers to contradict themselues as I haue shewed in the preface of this treatise than to acknowledge with vs as the trueth is that the Traditions mentioned by the Fathers are no parts or points of the Catholike faith But doeth your Church practise all those Traditions which are deliuered by the Fathers to be either Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall Papist Yes and although she did not yet is the Churches authority sufficient to abrogate or admit which she pleaseth Protestant 13 Indéede you take that libertie to your selues without all warrant either of Scripture or Fathers For S Hierome which is one of the Fathers alleaged by you for Traditions Dialo coÌ„tr Lucif ca. 4. deliuereth it as an Apostolike Tradition On the Lords day and throughout euery Penticost neither to pray on the knées nor to fast The temper of milke and honie giuen to them that were newly baptised Tertul. de Coro Milit. Nu. 3. is confirmed by Tertullian who likewise reckoneth vp a number of Rites grounded vpon Tradition As that the baptized should abstaine from washing a whole wéeke after Baptisme with much crossing at euery going out at euery steppe at euery comming in at putting on of apparel at putting on of shooes at washings at tables at lights at beddes at seates c. all these are deliuered as the Apostles Traditions which yet the Papists themselues obserue not And if these be not Apostolike Traditions what warrant haue we for any of the rest For as for the Churches authority in abolishing of these you may say as much of the holy Scriptures for you haue said before That Traditions vnwritten Conc. Trid. Sess 4. were of equall authoritie with the Scriptures But doe you thinke the authority of the ancient Fathers to be a sufficient ground to leade vs to accept of all the Doctrine deliuered by Tradition and that whatsoeuer is deliuered by them is to be receiued without exception Papist Yes the ioynt consent of the Fathers Sta. prine doctr li. 7. ca. 13. li. 1â— ca. 5. Hart. â— ag Ray. ca. â— diui â— is an absolute Rule being indeede the Churches exposition Protestant 14 Then must you wholly relinquish all your doctrine and Traditions vnwritten for all the Fathers doe with ioint consent yéelde all their authority to the Scriptures laying it for a Ground that nothing necessary to saluation is to be beléeued without the authoritie of the Scriptures nay that themselues are not to be credited without the scriptures as shal manifestly appeare by the testimonies of these Fathers following yea S. Augustine is so absolute for vs in most of his bookes * Aug Ep 19 ad Hiero Epi 48 Vincent Ep 111 Fortunatiano Epi 112 to Paulina Cont. FastuÌ„ li 11 c. 5. Contr. Cres gram li. 2 ca 11 32 De Bap coÌ„t Don li. 2. c. 2 De merit remiss peccat cont Pelag. lib 3 cap 7. De natur gra ca. 61 De gracia Christi coÌ„tra Pelag cap. â—â— De nuptijs concupisceÌ„t lib. 2 ca. 23. that he would haue the Church sought onely in the scriptures heretikes confuted onely by the scriptures To whose only authority in many places he professeth that he himselfe will be bound So that you must either make these Fathers contrary to themselues Or else grant that Traditions are not of absolute necessitie to be receiued But for that this is a maine point which the Papists insist on I will cleare the same euidently by foure iust exceptions which I referre to the indifferent censure of anie First I will prooue that the Fathers haue attributed all sufficiencie to the Scriptures and haue submitted all their authorities vnto them Secondly That the Fathers haue held diuers errors vpon which it necessarily followeth that if they might erre in one thing they might erre in another Thirdly that they are often reiected by the Papists yea euen the greater number sometimes contrary to their owne rule and therefore may with as great reasoÌ„ be reiected by vs. Fourthly That there are many counterfâ—its bearing the names of ancient Fathers and that often times they are alleaged by the Papists to abuse vs all which particular exceptions I will briefly prooue in order as they lie First Saint Basil saith Tract de fide it is a most certain argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man wil reiect any of those things that are written or bring in any thing that is not written when our Lord saith My sheepe heare my voice and a stranger they will not heare Tertullian saith De resurrect carnis Take away from Heretikes those things which they hold with Ethnikes that they may stay their questions vpon the Scriptures onely and they are not able to stand Saint Augustine saith De doctr Christ li. 2. ca. 9. All things that concerne faith and manners or beliefe and life are plainely written in the Scriptures Chrysostome saith In 2. ad Thessa Ho. 3 That euery thing is cleare and euident by the Scriptures and whatsoeuer things are necessary they are euident In Eusng Ioh. li. 12 cap. 68. Cyril saith That such of the things done by Christ are written as the writers thought to be sufficient for maners and doctrine Epist 11 inter epist August In the controuersie betwâ—xt S. Austin and S. Hierome touching Peters reproofe Hierome alleaged more Fathers on his side and made so great account of them that he desired Austin to suffer him to erre with such men if he thought him to erre Epist 19. To whom Saint Austin replied that peraduenture he might finde as many if he had read much But I saith he haue Paul the Apostle himselfe in stead of these all and aboue these all To him I doe flie to him doe I appeale from all the doctors his interpreters who are of other minds c. Epist 126 ad Euagrium S. Hierome yéelding his opinion to Euagrius a meane man after he had shewed the iudgements of Origen Didimus Hipollitus Irenaeus Eusebius Cesariensis Emisenus Apollinarius and Eustathius saith To bring foorth the witnesses it was my part let it bée yours to iudge of the credit of the witnesses Orig. Hom 1 super Ieâ—em Origen confesseth That their iudgements without witnesse of the Scriptures were of no credit Hierom. in Psal 98. Hierome writeth That all which they spake they were to proue by the Scriptures Hier. in Maâ— 23. and saith in another place That which hath not authority from the Scriptures as easily is despised as approued Saint Basil saith Basil in Ethicis defiâ— 8. If euery thing that is not of faith be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and faith come by hearing and hearing â—y the word of God Ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the Diuine
And Saint Iohn witnesseth that our Sauiour Christ saith Iohn 6.53 Except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood you haue no life in you and many other testimonies which I omit It wil conuince the Councell of Nice of error in decréeing for the worship of Images contrary to the second commandement But what shall I néede to descend to particularities it will conuince your late Councell of Trent and all other Councels in all those points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs if any Papist dare vndertake to bring the controuersies betwéene vs to that triall And surely since they will seeme to bring Scriptures to prooue the authoritie of the church and that the church cannot erre I sée no reason why they should refuse to make them iudge of all differences betwéene vs. But I maruell they vrge these places of Scripture to prooue that the church representatiue cannot erre séeing they are not able to shew that any one ancient Father hath so vnderstood them or that the whole church is represented in a generall Councell Name one Father that is ancient and not counterfeit for your credit sake that hath interpreted these places of Scripture or any other in that case as you doe If you cannot the world may iustly holde you for wranglers and abusers both of Scriptures and Fathers But let vs a little examine the force of those Scriptures which if they were all granted make nothing against vs if they bee rightly vnderstood The first is When two or thrée are gathered together c. This place is as pregnant for two or thrée faithfull men assembled in Christs name as to a Nationall or a Prouinciall Councell Neither doeth it giue any greater priuiledge to a Generall Councell than it doeth vnto them Bellar. li. 1. de Conc. ca. 12. though it bee alleaged by Bellarmine as the ground for the authorising of Councels All which promise notwithstanding your selues grant That both Nationall and Prouinciall Councels may erre The next place is the sixtéenth of Iohn where the holy Ghost is promised to the Apostles to leade them into all trueth which spirit of trueth is promised to the church and to euery particular member thereof for whome our Sauiour Christ prayeth saying Sanctifie them in thy trueth thy worde is trueth Ioh. 17.17.19 20. And againe I pray not for these alone but for them also that shall beleeue in mee through their worde But what maketh this for generall Councels more then the whole church or euery faithfull member thereof For although this prooueth that the holy Ghost shall euer remayne with the church and with euery true member of the same yet must wee not hereof conclude though it bee as pregnant for euery faithfull particular man as for the whole That either euery member of Christ or euerie Pastor that is the Apostles successour cannot erre Neither is this to be restrained to generall Councels or to the Pope neither must wee thinke that any visible Church may challenge all priuiledges that the Apostles had as necessary to the conuersion of the world Rhem. Test Iohn 16. But your Rhemists will tell you that to teach all trueth and to preserue in trueth and from error the holy Ghost is promised and performed onely to the Church and the choice gouernour and generall Councels Vpon which the Papists conclude that if the Church cannot erre the gouernours of the church cannot erre Is not this substantiall reasoning The whole church cannot erre Ergo the Pastors and preachers cannot erre Deale plainely and directly Do you hereby conclude that all Pastors cannot erre or that no Pastor can erre For to say that no Pastor can erre were apparant madnesse and to say that all Pastors cannot erre stands you in no stead neither is this a good argument The whole Church cannot erre that is all and euery faithfull cannot erre Ergo all Pastors cannot erre This is no kind of consequent for some of the faithfull may be directed to the trueth and they no Pastors nor preachers and many preachers may be preserued from error and they no Bishops and many Bishops may kept in the faith and they not assembled And a great number of those that be assembled may be righty affected and yet not the most part of them And the greater side may be well disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome without whose confirmation you hold no Councell lawfull And therefore this argument is very childish The whole Church cannot erre Ergo Generall Councels cannot erre and specially the Pope of whom wee shall speake more particularly hereafter neither hath the holy Ghost filled with the vnmeasurable abundance of grace any but Christ Iohn 3.34 Iohn 1.16 for God giueth not the spirit by measure to him of whose fulnesse wee all receiue And it may well bee gathered from the Scriptures 2. Cor. 10.13 Eph. 4.7 that though the holy Ghost be giuen to the Elect yet hee hath giuen it by measure as I may say with Saint Paul not to this end that they may not erre but that they may not erre to death For what thing soeuer is receiued of another it is receiued according to the capacitie of that which receiueth it The last is the 1. Tim. 3.15 The Church is the pillar and ground of trueth therefore it cannot erre If this argument were granted would it follow hereupon that general Councels could not erre but this is sufficiently refuted before And you knowe that Peter was a pillar of trueth and yet hee erred and was reprooued by Saint Paul Gal. 2. yea your Diuines of Paris Articuli Parisienses but lately resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him And the very drift and scope of the place sheweth That Timothie is not sent by Saint Paul to the church to learne his duety but to the Scripture These things write I vnto thée sayth hee hoping to come shortly but if I tarie long that thou mayest knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the church of the liuing GOD the pillar and ground of trueth This church then which Timothie was conuersant in is the church of Ephesus called by S Paul The pillar and ground of trueth But this church of Ephesus hath condemned the doctrine of the Popes supremacie Conc. Flor. Sess vlt. Chalcocondylas de Reb. Turc lib. 6. to which other churches of the East haue likewise condescended Therefore if that be true still which the Church teacheth because S. Paul calleth it the pillar and ground of trueth then the doctrine of the Popes supremacie is wicked and Papistrie is heresie yea euen this church notwithstanding it was called the pillar and ground of trueth is now left desolate to Mahomets wicked impietie But let vs sée by some few testimonies of the Fathers how they haue expounded this place and whether they haue applied it to generall Councels as the Papists do and not
you séene briefly A view of the weaknesse of the Grounds wheron the Papists build their Religion which in a word is The Popes good pleasure And notwithstanding I haue in this small Tract layd downe our iust Exceptions both against Fathers and Councels yet would I haue none rashly to censure that we reiect al the Fathers and Councels for we imbrace them as wholesome meanes by which great light hath béene brought to the Church of God both in the Exposition of the Scriptures and the abolishing and confuting of Heresies But wee reiect with great reason the partiality that is now vsed in calling of Councels which must now only be done by the Pope of which he onely must be President and Iudge contrary to the order of the first 4. Generall Councels which Gregory professeth to receiue as the 4. holy Gospels Neither is any thing of force that is now decréed in Councel vnles it be confirmed by the Pope though in the first 4. Councels the Pope was neither President by himselfe nor his Legates neither needed they his confirmation Besides the whole order of Councels are now inuerted by the Popes contrary both to the institution of the Apostles in the first Councel holden by them â—ct 15.22 â—3 and to all antiquity For now none must haue determining voyces but the Bishops and they must sweare and take this oath before they sit in Councel the forme whereof thus followeth â—ecret li. 2. â—r 24. ca. 4. I R.N. will be faithfull from henceforth to S. Peter and to the holy Church of Rome and to my lord Boniface the Pope to his successors chosen Canonically and I will bee an helper to defend against all the world the Popedome or papall superioritie and the rules of the holy Fathers So God mee helpe and the holy Gospel According to that detestable clause annexed to the Decrees of reformation in the Councel of Trent Ses 7. in prooe Seâ— 25. de Reformat ca. vlt. Salua semper in omnibus authoritate sedis Apostolicae Prouided alwayes that the Popes authority be safe and no way preiudiced So that still he will alwaies haue a non obstante notwithstanding any law to the contrary to breake through all lawes to doe what he list But to conclude wee acknowledge according to the Scriptures That there are two sorts of iudgements in the Church of God The one priuate and the other publike priuate to all the faithful and spirituall 1 Cor. 2.15 10.15 Ioh. 4.1 as God calleth them who are willed to iudge of that which is taught and to trie the Spirits whether they be of God Publike to the asssmbly of the Pastors and Elders Act. 15.6 1. Cor. 14. for of that which Prophets teach let Prophets iudge And the spirits of the Prophets are subiect to the Prophets In all which the Scripture is the rule by which the Church must be directed neither hath she other authority than the ministery of giuing iudgement For the Soueraignty of iudgement must rest on Gods word Mat. 22.10 Iam. 4.12 For Christ is our only Doctor Lawgiuer The Lord open your eyes that you may sée the Truth and be thankefull to God FINIS An Abstract of the chiefe Points of this booke FIrst That all the Fathers do with general consent attribute all sufficiencie to the Scriptures making them the Rule of faith and the absolute meanes to determine all doubts and controuersies preferring them before the Church and all other writings of men whatsoeuer and further that the Church is no otherwise to be shewed or knowen but by the Canonicall Scriptures and that themselues and their opinions without the Scriptures are not to bee beleeued but reiected See the Preface and pag. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 45. 46. 47. 52. 2 That the Scriptures are to be expounded by the Scriptures and that we are not tied for the exposition thereof to any Father Councell or Pope And that no Papist can shew the consent of the Fathers that the scriptures are to be expouÌ„ded by any Father Councell or Pope See pag. 88. 89. 90. 91. 3 That the Fathers agree with vs taking the greater part in approouing those Scriptures which the Protestants doe to be Canonicall and in reiecting those which we do for Apocrypha See pag. 4. 5. 4 That the Fathers take the word Tradition sometimes for the Scriptures sometimes for the Customes and Ceremonies of the Church and the Papists which vrge them for matter of doctrine vnwritten and to bee of equall authoritie with the Scriptures doe depraue the Fathers making their doctrines contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues See the Preface 5 That chiefe Papists and pillars of Popery haue confessed that many and most of the doctrines wherein they varie from vs are grounded vpon Traditions And that it is extreame madnesse to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelical doctrine is to bee fetched out of the Apostolike writings and out of that little Booke of the New Testament In which doctrine they goe wholly against the streame of the Fathers and also discouer their abusing of the simplicity of their followers when they make them beleeue the greatest difference betweene them and vs is touching the sense of the Scriptures whereas by this their confession this consequent necessarily followeth That where there is no Text there needes no Interpreter See the Preface 6 That the Papists haue vttered open blasphemy in their bookes against the Scriptures in taxing them of insufficiencie in tearming them a Nose of waxe Inkie diuinitie dumbe Iudges no better than Aesops Fables without the authority of the Church That they take their authority from the Church That sometimes they are to bee expounded one way sometimes another That the Scriptures must folow the Church and not the Church the Scriptures preferring the authoritie of the Church aboue and against the Scriptures All which blasphemies are refuted not onely by the direct texts of Scripture but by the generall consent of the Fathers See the Preface 7 That the Papists vrge the credit of the Fathers for the receiuing of Traditions and though there be many Traditions which by the Fathers testimony haue the same authoritie to prooue them to be Apostolike that the others haue Yet the Papists receiue the one and reiect the other See pag. 12. 13. 8 That the Fathers haue held diuers errors vpon which it necessarily followeth that if they might erre in one thing they might erre in another And that their iudgements are often reiected by the Papists and therefore may with as great reason be reiected by vs and consequently are no perfite Rule to build our Religion on which euen the Fathers themselues confesse See pag. 20. 21. 22 23. 16. 17. 9 That there be many Counterfeits that haue vsurped the names of auncient Fathers wherby it is hard to discerne when a true Father and when a false speakes And though some of these Fathers be censured for counterfeits
the saluation of the faithfull And in his second booke against Cresconius the Grāmarian he saith That there is an Ecclesiasticall Canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles By which bookes we iudge all other writings both of the faithful of the Infidels Hier. sup Agge cap. 1. Hierom sayth Those things which of their owne heads they deuise as though they came by Apostolike Tradition without the authority and testimony of the holy Scriptures the sword of Gods word striketh Infinite be the Authorities of the Fathers which might be brought to this purpose but I will conclude the point with Vincentius Lirinensis whome D.B.P. in his booke against M. Perkins Vincent aduer Haeres beleeueth not to haue any such wordes who saith The Canon of the Scripture is perfect and sufficient and more then sufficient to al things And again Not that saith he the Canon alone is not sufficient for all things These Fathers I hope knew the Scriptures aswell as D.B.P. or any other Papist and yet notwithstanding al his their obiections the Protestāts Achilles as he tearmeth it stands vnimpeacht by any thing that this or any other cauiller hath said And yet notwithstanding these euident places brought by the general consent of all the Fathers against the fundamētal Ground of Popery Your Rhemists wil tel you Rhem. Test 2. Thes 2. sect 18.19 if you wil beleeue them that they haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures all the fathers most euident reasons that wee must either beleeue Traditions or nothing at all And that S. Augustine often writeth That many of the articles of our Religion and points of highest importance are not so much to be prooued by Scriptures as by Tradition But if we aske them where S. Austine wrote this often and that of many articles of Religion and poynts of highest importance it must be returned with Non est inuentus Not to be found in S. Austin But they perceiuing the whole waight of their cause to lie in this Rhem. Test fol. 559. haue marshalled nine Fathers in a ranke to proue that we must either beleeue Traditions or nothing And yet the very same Fathers haue shewed That no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must bee receiued or beleeued without the Scriptures Cypr. ad Pomp. cont epist Stepha Basil contr Eunomium lib. 3. and the Fathers often times by Traditions vnderstand matters contained proued out of the scriptures that in regard the same was deliuered also by word And many times by Traditiōs they vnderstād ceremonies and customs Now chuse whether you will grant a flat contradiction in the Fathers or reconcile them thus and conclude with vs Ergo the Traditions they meane be no parts or points of the Christian faith For we haue their plain confession That all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures you produce them to witnes That your Traditions be not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your owne deponents wee conclude That your Traditions be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the Catholike faith Looke wel to this Issue They must either dissent frō you or from themselues Now if you will compare the late doctrine of the Romish Church with these Fathers it shal be euident That they haue not only dissented frō them but also vttered open blasphemy against the sacred Scriptures First Cardinal Cusanus intituleth his booke De authoritate ecclesiae Cōcilij supra contra scripturam Of the the authority of the Church Coūcel aboue against the scriptures Syluester Prierias master of the Popes palace Contr. Luther cōclusi de pot Papae saith That indulgences are warranted vnto vs not by the authority of the scripture but by the authority of the Church and Pope of Rome which is greater Boniface the Archbishop of Mentz saith That all men so reuerence the Apostolike See of Rome that they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religiō from the Pope than from the holy scripture This saying the Pope hath so approued that he hath caused it to be inserted into the Cannon lawe Dist 40. c. Si Papa Another saith whosoeuer resteth not on the doctrine of the Roman Church and B. of Rome Syluest Prier contr Luther as the infallible rule of God à qua sacra scriptura roburtrahit auctoritatem from which the sacred scripture draweth strength and authority he is an heretike Eckius saith De Ecclesia Scriptura nisi ecclesiae auctoritate non est authētica The scripture is not authētical but by the authority of the church Cardinal Hosius saith De expresso verbo Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome concerning any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whether and how it agreeth with the words of the scripture notwithstanding he hath ipsissimū verbū Dei the very word of God Cardinal Cusanus saith Nicol. Cusan ad Bohem epi. 7. It is no maruel though the practise of the Church expound the scriptures at one time one way and at an other time another way for the vnderstanding or sense of the scripture runneth with the practise And that sense agreeing with the practise is the quickening spirit Henric. doctor Magister sacripalatij Romae ad Legatos Bohemicos sub Felice Papa 1447. Ad Bohem. ep 2. and therefore the scriptures follow the Church but contrariwise the Church followeth not the scriptures Another saith The Pope may change the holy Gospel and may giue to the Gospel according to place and time another sense To conclude therfore with Cardinal Cusanus This is the iudgement saith he of all them that thinke rightly that foūd the authority vnderstanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authority of the scriptures I will not mention others that haue blasphemously said Vid. Chemnit exa par 1. pag. 47. That the scriptures without the authority of the Church are no better than Aesops Fables Thus you see how the Grounds of our Religiō are iustified by the Fathers against these blasphemies of the Romish Church And for that I knowe it commonly obiected that we refuse in disputation conference to handle the groūds of Religion I haue thought good in this smal Tract to examin though briefly the Grounds of your Romish Religion dialogue-wise to the end the truth may be the more liuely discerned by the obiections and answers Wherein if I haue not truely laid downe the Groūds of your Religion for the substance therof Or that they haue either bin mistaken by me or that vsing that breuity I haue done they might be more strongly or effectually vrged on your side or that the reasons vrged on our behalfe be either falsly alleaged or not truly handled I shall take it as a speciall grace done vnto me an argumēt of
obiections of the errors of Popes and Councels refuted So can I whensoeuer you shall instance any such particular refutation which may ease you of some paines if it be so sufficiently performed referre you to some of the authors of our side where the same reasons haue been with no lesse sufficiencie handled and replied to assuring my selfe That neither any of you haue or can make any obiections against the doctrine we professe that hath not beene already obiected and likewise by vs answered And if any will shew me the contrary I will be beholding to him neither will I shut mine eyes against the trueth If this which I haue sayd may any whit preuaile with you to make shew of that great learning whereof in your Letter you haue boasted by your liberall vndertaking to proue so many particulars which hitherto as great Clerkes as your selfe haue failed in I shall be ready and willing to performe whatsoeuer I haue herein promised Otherwise I pray you returne the booke as you receiued it and you shall see that some such course shal be taken as shal make you blush to haue censured so rashly Your friend in Christianity and Charitie T. V. A briefe view of the weaknesse of the Grounds of Popish Religion as is euident by these seuerall Obiections and Answeres following Protestant 1WHereupon doe you ground your Religion Papist Vpon the word of God interpreted by the Church which cannot erre Protestant 2 What do you vnderstand by the Word of God Papist The Scriptures and Traditions Protestant 3 What doe you vnderstand by the Church Papist Stapl. princi doct l. 7 ca. 10. l. 11 ca. 5 Hervaeus de potest pap R. Cupers Petrus de Palude de potest papae Aâ— 4. The Church is sometimes taken for the auncient Fathers sometimes for generall Councels Sometimes we preferre the head of the Church the Pope before both Protestant 4 Well that we may procéede orderly in the handling of these particulars Doe you receiue all the bookes of the Old and Newe Testaments with equall authoritie Papist No but following the Tradition of the Church we distinguish betweene the Canonicall and the Apocrypha Protestant 5 Which are the Bookes which you call Apocrypha Papist Wee hold as Apocrypha The prayer of Manasses the third and fourth booke of Esdras Also others that are not vsuall in your English Bibles as an Appendix to the booke of Iob The 151. Psalme A preface to the Lamentations of Ieremie The third and fourth booke of Maccabees Protestant 6 Well we agrée with you in the reiection of these Bookes And we likewise consent with you That all the bookes of the New Testament as they stand are to be receiued of all for Canonicall Scripture What are then the Bookes that are in question betwéene vs Papist There be 7. Chapters of Hester certaine Stories annexed to Daniel as Of Bel and the DragoÌ„ Of Susanna Of the three childreÌ„ Also the Epistle of Baruch ioyned to Ieremie Then the books of Tobie Iudeth The Wisedom of Salomon Ecclesiasticus Two bookes of the Maccabees These we repute as Canonical both by the testimony of the Fathers and by the authoritie of the Church Protestant 7 Well Since I shall haue cause hereafter to speake of the Church I wil but briefly giue a touch to the reason of the refusall of these Bookes All Canonicall Scriptures in the old Testament were written by the Prophets We haue a sure word of the Prophets 2. Pet. 1.19 saith Saint Peter And Saint Paul calleth them The Scriptures of the Prophets Rom. 16 2â— But none of those Bookes afore named of Tobias of Iudeth and the rest were written by the Prophets Therefore none of those Bookes are Canonical All the Bookes of the olde Testament that were Canonicall were acknowledged of the Iewes and Hebrewes and written in Hebrew But the Iewes receiued none of these Books into the Canon of the Scriptures though to them were committed the Oracles of God as Saint Paul sayth neither were they in the Hebrew tongue Ergo they are not Canonicall But to the end you may sée how well the Church of which you boast agrées with the testimonies of the Fathers both ancient moderne Hier prol galeat Eâ—i ad Pauli in praefat â—i Reg in praefat in â—ro Salom. I wil giue you this taste briefly S. Hierom saith The Church readeth those bookes but receiueth them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures The summe of all which is confirmed by these testimonies following whose particular spéeches to this purpose for breuitie sake I omit referring you to the places themselues as they are here following set down As Rufinus in his exposition vpon the Créede Cyril of Hierusalem in the 4. of his Catechisme Athanasius in Synop. Sacr. Scriptur Nazianzen in Carminis Epiphan li. de Mensur ponder Cyprian vpon the Créed Damasâ—en ca. 49. Hugo de Sanct. Victor de Sacram. in prol li. 1. ca. 7. Radulphus in Leuit. li. 14. c. 1. Lyra in prol in li. Apocry Hugo Cardina in prol Iosu All these contradict the opinion of the Papists in this controuersie yea Arias Montanus a chiefe Papist in his Hebrew Bible writeth in the forefront principal leafe of the booke There are added saith he in this Edition the bookes written in Gréek which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckoneth amongst the Apocrypha The Councel of Laodicea Can. 59. Constantinop in Trul lo Can. 2. allured by a general Councel of Constantinople in Trullo did set downe the same Canon of the scriptures which both the old Church had our church doth hold commandeth Ne aliqui praeterea legantur in auctoritateÌ„ recipiaÌ„tur That none besides be read receiued into authority I omit many seueral contradictions in al or most of the books which we reiect they allow wherby they may be conuinced not to be written by the spirit of God which is alwaies one the same Sée the 4. Esdras 10.20 2. Maccab. 2.4 1. Mac. 1.6 8. touching Antiochus yea we wil confesse with Bellarmin Bellar. de ver Dei li. 1. cap. â— That the scriptures may be proued to be the Word of God by the constant perpetual truth of the Prophecies By the wonderful harmony consent of the holy writers of the Scriptures By the Spirit of God which is a principall witnes vnto vs By the scripture it selfe 2. Tim. 3. Lastly by the many great miracles wrought by the Prophets Apostles which do testifie for the truth thereof To the which touchstone if the Scriptures whith wee reiect were brought to the triall they would easily bee conuinced to bee but drosse and vnworthy to stand in the rankes of those that are Canonicall But how doe you knowe which are the Scriptures and in them which be Canonicall which be Apocrypha Papist I knowe by the testimonie of the Church which be the Scriptures and in them
which be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Protestant 8 How do you know which is the Church And by what meanes may it be knowen that the Church hath authoritie to determine which be Scriptures and which of them be Canonicall and which be Apocrypha Papist There be many notes and markes reckoned vp by the learned of our side by which the Church may be knowen But we insist chiefly vpon these Antiquitie Vnitie Vniuersality Succession and the power of Miracles And for the authority of the Church it is prooued by the Scriptures Protestant 9 This answere is common to all Heretikes for they alleage somtimes the a Author ope Imper. in Mat. Ho. 48. Church sometime b Iren. adu Haere lib. 3. cap. 2. Traditions sometime c Aug. coÌ„tr Maxim Ariâ— episc li. 1. Councels sometime d De Bapt. c. 6. li. 3. Fathers sometime e In Ioh. ca 2. tract 13 Miracles sometime f De vnit eccle c. 16. Visions sometime g Epist 65. ad gener Succession of Bishops yea h Act. 19.27 Demetrius pretended Vniuersalitie And the i Act. 17 18 19. Philosophers Epicures and Stoickes Antiquity And k Vinc. Lir. ca. 6 ca. 4. Vincentius Lirinensis disproueth Vniuersalitie by the example of the Arrians and Antiquity by the example of the Donatists And for their l In Chron. Suput Rom. prat Sigon de Regn. Ital li. â— Vnitie let that appeare in the seuerall oppositions of their Popes one condemning the decrées of another and decréeing one contrary to another And therefore this is no sufficieÌ„t reason for a man to ground his faith and Religion if we beléeue the m StapletoÌ„ Fortresse Hart. ag Ra. pag. 118. Papists in the like cause for it is a common obiection by them that because Heretikes alleage the Scripture therefore they are no suffieient rule Moreouer this answere passeth the limits of the proposition for it presupposeth the authoritie of the Church to be prooued by the Scriptures and the Scriptures to be prooued by the authority of the Church which is Ignotum per ignotius Idem per idem A proofe of a thing vnknowen by a thing lesse knowen and so no proofe at all Therefore to procéede to the next part of the diuision what doe you vnderstand by Traditions Papist I vnderstand Apostilicall doctrine commonly called vnwritten verities and as D.B. P. in his booke against M. Perkins diuides them Some are Diuine some Apostolicall and some Ecclesiasticall all which according to the Councel of Trent are to be receiued with equall reuerence Conc. Trid. Sess 4. and religious affection as we do the Scriptures Protestant 10 How doe you proue Traditions or vnwritten verities to bee Apostolicall doctrine and that they be Diuine Apostolicall and Ecclesiasticall and that they are to bee receiued with equall reuerence and religious affection as we doe the Scriptures Papist 2. Thess 2 15. I proue it by the Scriptures interpreted by the Church Saint Paul saith Hold the Trations which yee haue learned whether it bee by word Conc. Trid. â—ess 4. or by Epistle which by the Churches exposition proueth vnwritten verities to be receiued with equall authoritie to the Scriptures and to explane the same D.B.P. aforesayd affirmeth that Diuine Traditions come from our Sauiour Christ Apostolicall Traditions from the Apostles And the Decrees of the Church hee tearmeth Ecclesiasticall Traditions which are likewise of equall authoritie with the Scriptures Protestant 11 This is a common fault with you to vse this point of Sophistrie called by the Logicians Petitio principij for you wil stil take it for graunted that you are the Church though you neuer prooue it And this is a necessary consequence That if the trueth be doubted of the church must néedes bee much more doubted of because the Church is the number of men professing the trueth And how can the professors of the trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question Therefore the supposing your selues to be the church when your faith Religion should be tried is fond vain But if S. Paul in that place by Deliuered Tradition meane nothing but the doctrine deliuered to them by word of mouth yet comprised in Scripture too then must you graunt that you are deceiued to thinke that vnwritten Traditions are approued by S. Pauls Traditions Now what the things were which S. Paul deliuered by word to the Thessalonians is shewed in the 17 of the Acts saying Now as they passed thorow Amphipolis and Apolonia they came to Thessalonica where was a Synagogue of the Iewes and Paul as his maner was entred in vnto them and thrée Sabbath dayes hee discoursed vnto them out of the Scriptures opening and alleaging That Christ must haue suffered and risen againe c. In which wordes it is opened both what Paul deliuered to the Thessalonians by word and from whence From whence Out of the Scriptures What That it behooued Christ to suffer and rise againe Besides Saint Paul witnesseth both to small and great that hee said no other thing than that which the Prophets and Moyses did say should come Act. 26 22 The Traditions therefore that Paul doth exhort the Thessalonians to hold is the Tradition of the Gospel as Saint Ambrose writing vpon the same place calleth it very well which the reason also doth prooue that Saint Ambrose noteth that Paul doth there gather saying God hath raised you to saluation by our Gospel therefore stand ye fast and holde the Traditions which ye haue learned whether it be by word or by Epistle Now I hope there is none so impudent to denie that the Gospel is written But here another difficultie incounters vs If it were granted by the Churches interpretation that there were doctrines or Traditions Diuine Apostolicall or Ecclesiasticall deliuered by word of mouth vpon what sure grounds might wee be assured which be the Traditions that were so deliuered by Christ his Apostles or the Church Papist The ancient Fathers chiefe Papists doe plainely teach that many points of doctrine wherein you varie from vs as halowing the Font the blessing of the oyle the anointing the Baptized Exorcismes Fastes Festiuities prayer for the dead prayer to Saints worshipping of Images the oblation of the Sacrifice their Annealing their Primacie of Rome their fiue pretended Sacraments the merit of workes their satisfactions the numbring their sinnes to the Priest their Real presence their halfe CommunioÌ„ c. See the preface for Priests and See Master Middletons booke called Papisto-Mastix Sect. 5. almost all these things which you defend against vs are proued by the Fathers to be deliuered by Tradition Protestant 12 This sheweth euidently that you are guilty of the same fault that the Pharises were Mark 7.9 by Christs owne reproofe saying You cast aside the commaundements of God to maintaine your owne Traditions Mat 15.9 teaching for doctrine
sée it the Sepulchâ—e opened for his sake and the body assumpteâ— into heauen he saith not one word of these conceits Nay he rather saith against them for he noteth namely That Iames was also present the brother of the Lord and Peter the chiefest and ancientest top of the Apostles And it is not likely he would haue noted two if they had beene all present here is no lesse than seuen lies in lesse than sixe liues Now let vs sée how Damascen your Portesse agréeth For DamasceÌ„ saith The Angels sung almost thrée dayes The Portesse thrée whole dayes Damascen saith The rest of the Apostles would shew to one of them who was absent the bodie The Portesse saith Thomas who was absent would worship the bodie Now what thée Damascen was let your owne doctors tell you who except against him for his tale of Gregory the Pope â—anus locoâ—m Theol 〈◊〉 11. â— Hessels â—nsure de â—stor sanct â— 3. â—erm de funct in 〈◊〉 and Traiane the Emperour Thus Damascen reporteth That Gregorie while he went ouer the market place of Traian did pray for Traians soule to God and behold a voice from heauen I haue heard thy prayer and I pardon Traian but see thou pray no more to me for the wicked These be good places to prooue prayer for the dead and yet it is against popish doctrine that prayer can deliuer any out of hell And if he had béen in Purgatory the Pope could haue dispatched that of himselfe without praying The next is Athan in Euang. de deipara who speaks not one word of your miraculous fault And yet is the same Athanasius reiected for a bastard in your owne edition In edit Petr. Nannij Louan praefat ad episcop Atiebat The last is fiue sermons of S. Barnards in all which likewise there is not one worde of that miracle So that vnlesse they were disposed to lie for the whetstone it is to be wondred how they dare thus abuse their Readers both with the names of counterfeit Fathers and false forgeries If I should collect all such like stuffe it would growe greater than this smal Tract But let the Christian Reader iudge of the rest as hee prooues these to be truly brought against them And if any desire further proofe of the Rhemists sincerity in alleaging Fathers let him obserue these places viz. The constitutions of Clement Luk. 4. Sect. 1. Ignatius Matt. 4. Sect. 2. 1. Peter 2. Sect. 6 Dionysius Areopag Act. 8. Sect. 6. Hypolitus Mat. 24. Sect. 5. Policarpus Act. 6. Sect. 1. Miltiadi Fabian Act. 8. Sect. 6. S. Andrew S. Martiall Hebr. 10. Sect. 11. The Masses of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome 1. Cor. 11. Sect. 10. Clicton for Ciuil Ioh. 11. Sect. 1. and Paulinus Ioh. 9. Sect. 2. All these are counterfeit Fathers and vrged by the Papists vnder the names of true Fathers to countenance their corrupt doctrine And therefore no maruell if popish leaders instruct their followers to get vs into the plaine field of their Motiues out of our weake and false castell of onely Scripture as Bristowe the Licentiate tearmeth it Brist Motiu 48. And it is no maruell that they haue such store of the Fathers and that our new masters as they tearme vs cannot compare with these Fathers in the doctrines they deliuer when they bring vs onely the names of fathers I could giue instance likewise how the Fathers are often contrary one to another yea contrary to themselues Thus I hope it is plainly prooued by these foure iust exceptions that the Fathers iudgements are no infallible rule for a man to build his faith on though it be imbellisht with the churches exposition And yet wee reuerence and honor them as men that haue brought great light to the vnderstanding of the Scriptures But what doâ— you vnderstand by intituling the ancient Fathers with the name of the church Papist I meane Harâ—â—g Rai that the ioint consent of the Fathers in all doctrines deliuered by them is the doctrine of the Church Protestant 15 What doe you meane by the ioint consent of the Fathers Papist I mean by the ioint consent of the Fathers that which all or the most part of them doe deliuer for trueth wherin if there be any difference the greater number is to be followed for a fewe may bee deceiued more easily than many Protestant 16 This rule séemes to be very vncertaine for you knowe that king Ahab was deceiued by the consent of false prophets 2. Chron. 1â— 5 11. euen 400. against Micaiah yea when the Fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decrée that Bishops Priests DeacoÌ„s should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone Sozom. li. 1. cap. 2â— rose vp in the midst of their Councell and fréely contradicted it and preuailed Besides in the third Exception before it is plainely shewed that the greater number of Fathers are by your selues reiected in the diuision of the coÌ„mandements and in the controuersie betwéene S. Austine and Hierom touching Peters reproofe par 1. wherein your selues grant Torrensis confes Aug. lib. 2. cap. 1. tim â— that Austin iudged more soundly What is therefore then to be done that a certaine and sure ground may bee found out Papist Then a better and more sure way is that which by the faithfull Pastors of the Church is decreed in a generall Councell which cannot erre Protestant 17 Indéed I must confesse it is a sure way to build our faith vpon those Councels which cannot erre But how shal we be assured that they cannot erre Papist We are assured by the Scriptures That the Church cannot erre as is euident by these places following Mat. 18.20 Our Sauiour Christ saith That when two or three are gathered together in his name that he will be in the midst And Ioh. 16 13. he promiseth to send vnto his Church the holy Ghost which shall leade them into all trueth 1. Tim. 3. And S. Paul calles it the Pillar and ground of trueth Vpon which places and many other which for breuity I omit wee conclude that the Church cannot erre which to speake as the Schoolemen doe we call the Church representatiue because the whole Church is there represented in a gerall Councell Protestant 18 Take héede what you doe Will you bring the Church contrary to the iudgement of many learned Papists mentioned in the preface of this booke to take her authority from the Scriptures and to be tried by them whether it may erre If you doe it will be the vtter ruine and destruction of your Religion for the Scriptures will conuince the Councel of Constance of error in taking away the cup from the Laitie contrary to S. Pauls expresse commandement saying 1. Cor. 11. Let a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this bread and drinke of this cup. And contrary to the Institution and commaundement of Christ himselfe saying Drinke you all of this Mat. 26.27
rather to the whole Church consisting of the faithfull as the Protestants vnderstand it S. August saith Aug. in Psal 47. in prâ—ef We may not vnderstand the second of the Sabbath to be any other than the Church of Christ yet the Church of Christ in the Saints the church of Christ in those that are not ouercome with the tentations of this wicked world for they are worthy the name of firmament Therfore the church of Christ is called the firmament in those that are firme which is saith hee the Church of the liuing God the pillar and firmament of trueth Aug. de Bap li. 7. cap 3 Tom. 6. The like saying hath S. Augustine in many other places but specially where he writeth against the Donatists Saint Chrysostome expoundeth this place of the verity it selfe Chrys Hoâ— 11 in 1. Tim. 3. and not of the Pastors or Councels as the Papists do For sayth he the verity of the church is both the pillar and the firmament And if you will sée that the Fathers haue vnderstood the church as the Protestants do reade S. Augu. Enchirid. â— Laurent caâ— 56. expounding the Articles of the Créed where he saith that the Church is here to be taken for the whole not for that part onely which is a stranger vpon earth Aug. in Psal 137. Againe he saith There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue the Church beneath in all the faithfull c. Ibid. Psal 90. Conc. 2. Likewise the whole church euery where diffused is the body of Christ and hee is the head of it Not onely the faithfull which are now but also they that were before vs from the beginning of the world and they that shall be after vs to the ende of the world doe all pertaine to this bodie The church is the bodie of Christ not the church which is here or there but which is here and euery where thorowout the world c. And often times in his writings he affirmeth the Catholike church to consist of all the predestinate De ciuitat Dei li. 21. ca. 25. de Bapt. â—i 6. ca. 3. In Iohn Tract 45. which are the members of Christs mysticall bodie and that no wicked men perteine vnto it but only the good holy and iust But to conclude this point with one whom you haue euer reputed your owne Anselmus super hunc locum saith The house in which God dwelleth is the whole congregation of the faithfull who are to be taught diuersly and the same Church is in the perfect a pillar that is sublime streight inconcussible supporting and lifting vp the yonger sort and in the same perfect it is the firmament of trueth because both by words and examples it confirmeth in the hearts of the weake the veritie of faith and Gods commandements Thus you sée the Church is by these testimonies vnderstood to be the congregation of the faithfull and not generall Councels or Pope And it is truely gathered out of these words of Anselmus which are to be taught that the church consisteth aswell of the Laity as the Cleargie Now if you will see how the church may be knowen Chrysostome saith Hom. in Mat. 49 Before it might be shewed many waies which was the church of Christ But nowe it is no way to be knowen but onely by the Scriptures S. Augustine saith as we may truely say of the Papists Let the Donatists saith he shew their church De vnitat eccles ca. 16. not in the rumors and speaches of the men of Africa nor in the Councels of their Bishops nor in their discourses of any writer whosoeuer nor in signes and miracles that may be forged but in the prescript of the law in the predictions of the Prophets in the verses of the Psalmes in the voices of the shepheard himselfe in the preachings and workes of the Euangelist that is in all the Canonicall authorities of the sacred Scriptures And binding himselfe to the same condition he addeth But whether they hold the Church Ibidem let them shew no otherwise than by the Canonical books of the holy scriptures because wee our selues doe not say wee must therefore bee beléeued for that wee are in the church of Christ or else for that Optatus Ambrose and infinite other Bishops of our communion haue commended the church which we hold or because our Church hath béen published in the Councels of our Collegues Chrysost in Mat. Hom. 16. Chrysostome sayth Euen so touching this new Ierusalem which is the Church they that were spiritual Christian men leauing the bodily church which the wicked by violence had inuaded departed out froÌ„ them Or as S. Iohn expoundeth it they rather departed out froÌ„ vs for hee séemeth not indeed to depart from the church that bodily departeth but he that spiritually leaueth the foundations of the Ecclesiastical truth We haue departed froÌ„ them in body they haue departed from vs in mind we from them in place they from vs by faith we haue left with them the foundations of the wals they with vs the foundations of the scriptures we are departed froÌ„ them in the sight of man they are departed froÌ„ vs in the iudgement of God But now after that the spirituall church is come forth the bodily church is left forsaken that is to say froÌ„ the people that séemed to be a christian people was not this people is gone forth that séemed not outwardly but was so indéed notwithstanding as we haue said before they are rather departed from vs than we from them Now let the indifferent Reader iudge by Chrysostomes iudgement whether the Papists or we by this description may be truliest reputed the true church for I thinke it is euident to all that they haue the foundations of the wals and we the foundations of the Scriptures which they so blasphemously speak of we are departed froÌ„ them in the sight of man but they froÌ„ vs in the sight of God who they were that séemed to be a christian people and were not let that be tried by the Scriptures And if you wil know what authority the Fathers giue to the church S. Aug. saith Cont. Crescâ— li. 2. ca. 21. Idem oper imperf in Mat. Ho. 49 The church may not preferre her selfe before Christ neither may we beleeue the true churches themselues vnles they say do those things that are consonant to the scriptures The church may not preferre her self before Christ Idem contrâ— Crescon li 2 cap. 21. for so much as hee alwaies iudgeth rightly ecclesiastical Iudges as being but men are often deceiued Many be the testimonies that might be brought to this purpose but to procéed we make the same iust exceptions against general Councels that we did against the Fathers First we will prooue that they are contrary one to another Secondly that they haue erred And lastly that they are reiected by the Papists Canon 59. The first Exception I prooue
euen by the learned Papists themselues and their Vniuersities yet doe they alleage them against vs in many of their bookes especially in the Rhemes Testament to giue countenance to Popish errors See pag. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 10 That the consent of the Fathers cannot be shewed nay scarce any ancient Father that all controuersies are to bee determined by the Pope or that hee cannot erre or that hee must summon Councels or that they are of no authoritie vnlesse they bee confirmed by the Pope And yet are these doctrines held Catholike by the Papists and reputed the chiefe pillars of Popery See pag. 75. 11 That al those places of Scripture which are brought by the Papists either to prooue the Popes prerogatiue or the authority of the Church or that the Church cannot erre are by the Fathers writing purposely vpon the same places expounded according to the Protestants sense giuen and contrary to the sense which the Papists giue So farre are the Papists from proouing the generall consent of the Fathers in expounding these Scriptures which they commonly obiect against vs as Thou art Peter and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it Or the promises of the holy Ghost to be sent to the Church to leade it into all trueth Or To thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of Heauen Or The Church is the pillar and ground of Trueth Or Tell the Church Or if hee heare not the Church let him be to thee as an heathen or as a Publicane Or whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen Or any other place of Scripture to the sayd purposes to bee on their side as namely that those Texts should be meant of the Pope Generall Councell or the Church of Rome See pag. 66. 67. 68. 69. 70. 12 That Generall Councels haue erred haue beene contrary one to another haue been reiected by the Papists themselues and so are no sure Rule to build our faith on See pag. 48. 49. 50. 51. 52. 53. 54. 55. 13 That the Popes whom they would haue to be supreame Iudges in al Controuersies haue erred iudicially haue been heretikes as maintaining the heresie of the Monothelites subscribing to the Arrian heresie to the Nestorian heresie haue offered sacrifice to idoles haue been Necromancers and Coniurers See pag. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 14 That the Pope can be no competent Iudge and whereunto the Fathers referre vs. See pag. 93 c. LEt me request thee Courteous reader to take noâ—ice that the Texts of Scripture and testimonies of the Fathers cited by me in this Treatise should all haue been set downe in a different letter from the rest of the matter wherewith they are ranked accordingly as you see performed in the Preface and in the later halfe of the booke Now by meanes of my absence and want of direction giuen in this point it could not be discerned by the Printer howe farre the wordes of the Text and Testimonies so to bee distinguished might reach And therefore I cannot but free him from that blame as likewise 2. or 3. literal escapes only excepted from imputation of any the faults hereunder specified some of them being committed in my Copie and the rest through difficulty and darknes of the hand might easily be mistaken In the Text. Page 5. line 7. for allured reade allowed pag. 8. l. 17. Trations Traditions p. 11 l. 19. Priests proofe p. 29. l. â—6 addeth alleageth p. 29. l. 17. tehimony testimony p. 31. l. 2. for 25 15. p. 33. l. 7. fault fable p. 40. l. 9. châ—ice chiefe p. 72. l. 8. cannot which cannot p. 89. l. 1. sense the sense In the Margent Pag. 7. for De Bapt. c. 6. li. 1. reade De Bapt. cont Don. li. 3. pag. 7. prat reade pont pag. 8. 1. Thes 2. Thes pag. 12. 1. Pet. 2.18 1. Pet. 1.18 pag. 20. Aug. in Frut Aug. in Enar. pag. 14. de fulta de falsa pag. 35. li. 1. cap. 22. li 1. cap 23. pag. 36. Tim. Tit. pag. 52. Epist 16 7. Epist 167. pag. 59. against Pope Coelestine C. laudab de conuers Infidel is omitted
A BRIEFE VIEWE of the weake Grounds of Popery As it was propounded to D. NORRICE Priest by T.V. Gent and returned without answere AT LONDN Imprinted by Humfrey Lownes for Samuel Macham and Mathew Cooke and are to be sold in Pauls Church-yard at the signe of the Tigers head 1606. To my dearest Cousins A. B. C. D. MY dearest Cousins with what zeale and feruencie both in my prayers and other indeuours I haue euer desired wee might be of one mind heart God Act. 6. and mine owne conscience can best testifie and your selues may partly witnes with me For as touching the means to this our atonement namely conference with the learned of ech others side and reading their bookes you know well I for my part haue neuer refused it but euermore gladly imbraced and diligently sought after it that so if truth wherof great vaunts were made had been found on your side my heart first then my hand might readily haue subscribed thereto But when I consider the doctrine of your Rhemists Tit. 3. Sect. and the answerable practise of their disciples forbidding you not onely to reade our bookes but to hold conuersation much more to haue conference with vs who must be Heretikes because they tearme vs so yea when I see they blush not to affirme That we are not to be heard â—fâ—r 3. â—ect 2. no not though we speake the trueth I almost despaire of your conuersion seeing the means are prohibited Now how much meeter it were in a case of such consequence being no lesse than the eternal safegard of your soules to leaue them with their errors and to hearken rather and conforme your faith to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles I referre it to any seeing iudgement For the vniuersall consent of all the ancient Fathers alloweth the Scriptures for the onely Rule of faith as conteining in them all doctrine necessary to saluation And albeit I haue sufficiently among others cleared that question in this smal Treatise following yet will I somewhat inlarge the proofe of it in this place to the end you may better knowe That though you send vs for instruction to to the Fathers yet they send vs backe again to the Scriptures as the onely and sufficient Rule to direct vs. And in handling this point I will not much insist vpon diuine authority since I know you relye chiefly if not wholly on the Fathers Onely I will vrge these few testimonies of Scripture which ought to preuaile more with euery true Christian than all the Fathers how learned soeuer First our Sauiour willeth vs to search the Scriptures for that in them we thinke to haue eternall life Io. 5.39 Mark 1224. And he taxeth the Pharises of error because they were ignorant of the Scriptures 2. Tim. 3.15 16 17. S. Paul likewise affirmeth that they are able to make vs wise vnto saluation that the man of God may be perfite instructed to euery good worke And if this perswade you not I haue no hope that any Father can for as Christ saith Luk. 16.29 30 31. They haue Moyses and the Prophets if they will not heare them neither will they beleeue if one rose from the dead Now as to the Fathers though your side pretend so much to reuerence them yet in this question they wholly reiect them and that indeede not without cause seeing their authority in this one point might proue the downefall of your whole Religion it being confessed by some great Champions on your side That many and most of the doctrines wherin you varie from vs are grounded on Traditions and not on the Scriptures as any that will take the paines to reade may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the fift chapter of Canisius Catechisme in the * In fine fabulae 6. 5 booke of Lyndans Panoply yea * Scripto suâ— aedito tempore Trid. Concil Andradius saith That the greatest part of Catholike Religion is left vnto Traditions of the Church not written â—anopl li. 1. â— 22. demeÌ„â—ssimae insaâ—iae And the said Lyndan saith It is most extreme madnes to think that the whole entire Body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be fetched out of the Apostolike letters written with inke and out of that little booke of the new Testament And therefore so much the more are your leaders seducers to be taxed who perswade their folowers that the greatest differeÌ„ce between them and vs is touching the Sense of the Scripture wheras euery man of common sense wil easily iudge that where there is no Text there needs no Interpreter But let vs briefly see what opinioÌ„ the Fathers were of in this coÌ„trouersie betweene vs and how they haue vnderstood that Scripture which D. B. P. calles the Protestants Achilles which hee onely barkes at without further hurt â— B. booke â—gainst M â—erkins calâ—ed the 1. â—im 3. the â—rot Achilâ—es Hom. 9. Chrysostome vpon the same Text sayth If any thing be needefull for vs to learne or to be ignorant of there meaning in the Scriptures shal we learne it If to reproue falsehood from thence shal we draw it if any thing lacke to be corrected or rebuked which must be had vnto exhortation vnto comfort there also doe we learne it Likewise Ho. 8. vpon the 15. verse he saith The scriptures do teach both what things are to be done what not to be done Theodoret vpoÌ„ the same place saith The scripture is inspired of God Therfore he teacheth the kinds of vtilitie It is profitable to teach for whatsoeuer we know not we learne out of it To reproue It reproueth our wicked life To correct for it exhorteth that they which haue gone astray returne to the right way To instruct in righteousnesse for it teacheth vs the kinds of vertue that the man of God may bee perfit furnished to all good workes All these things doe attribute and ascribe perfection to the God of all Primasius saith Out of the scriptures he that is ignorant is taught Hee that is insolent is reprooued He that erreth is corrected He that can keep no measure is instructed to Iustice to euery good worke not vnto one Oecumenius sayth after he hath rehearsed the particular vtilities to teach all true opinions and good works to reprooue errors vice he concludeth that the man of God may be not onely partaker after a vulgar maner of euery goodworke but perfect and compleate by the doctrine of the scriptures Not to some kind of good worke and to some not But to all and euery good worke saith Theophilact Athanasius saith Atha contr gent. Chrys opeâ— imperf in Mat. Ho. 41. Aug. in Iohâ— Tract 44. The holy scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of trueth Chrysostome saith whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation all that is fully laid downe in the Scripture S. Augustine sayth There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy Ghost sufficient for
Scriptures because it is not of faith it is sinne Saint Hillary Hillarâ—us ad Constan August Séekest thou for faith Emperour saith he to Constantius heare it not out of the late Scrolles but out of Gods Bookes Heare I beseech thée that which is written of Christ lest vnder pretence thereof things not written be preached And in another place pressing his aduersary Thou Idem de Trinitat li. â— saith he that deniest things written what remaineth but that thou beléeue things vnwritten You sée that was counted for a passing absurdity in that age which since the Papists haue established as the surest way to discerne trueth Tertullian refelling the Heretike Hermogenes Tert ad Heade praesci ad Haeres I adore saith hee the fulnesse of the Scriptures let Hermogenes shew me where this that he teacheth is written If it be not written let him feare the curse prouided for adders and diminishers It séemes this Father vnderstood the Text of Deuteronomie and the Apocalypse otherwise than D.B.P. in his booke against M. Perkins Iren. li. 3. â—ap 1. Irenaeus saith The disposition of our saluation we knew by none other than by those by whom the Gospel came vnto vs the which at first they preached by mouth but afterward by Gods appointment they did deliuer it to vs in writing that it should be the foundation and pillar of our faith The mountaines of Israel whereon God promised to féede his flocke Aug. de pastor ca. 11. are saith Augustine The writers of the diuine Scriptures féeding there you féede safely whatsoeuer you learne thence count it sauourie whatsoeuer is besides them refuse it Therefore whether it be touching Christ or his Church oâ— any matter else which concerneth our faith and life dem contr Litt Petil li. 3. ca 6. I say not if we saith Saint Austine but as â—oâ—â—weth in Paul If an Angel from heauen teach any thing besides that which you haue receiued in the Scriptures of the lawâ— and the Gospel holde him accursed But I will conclude this point wherein there is â— multitude of witnesses against you which to auoide tediousnesse I omit S. Augustin teacheth Paulina Epistâ—us Not to follow his authority or to beléeue a thing because he hath said it but to beléeue the Canonicall Scriptures L◠〈◊〉 de piâ— rit câ— We say therefore with him let vs yéeld and consent vnto the holy Scriptures which can neither deceiue nor be deceiued And againe I require the voice of the Shepheard Reade me this matter out of the Prophets De pastâ—â— cap. 14. reade it out of the Psalmes reade it out of the Lawe reade it out of the Gospel reade it out of the Apostles writings And so I ende with this sentence of his I owe my consent De naturâ— gratia ca. 61. without gain-saying only vnto the Canonical Scripture Now let the indifferent Reader iudge of the handling of this first part whether he will beléeue the Fathers speaking for and with the Scriptures or for Traditions without and and besides the Scriptures Surely had these Fathers liued in this age they had béen condemned for Heretikes as we are for holding the same doctrine so well doth this new Poperie agrée with Antiquitie And the Papists had néed to haue these places and infinite oâ—hers to this purpose Deut. 4 â— 12 32. 28 5â— Io. 20.31 2 Tim. 3 15 16 17. to be purged by their Index expurgatorius out of the Fathers lest this thiefe and fundamentall point agréeing so directly with the Scriptures prooue the downeâ—all of all Papistrie Now let vs briefly procéede to the second Exception to shew the errour of the Fathers First Cyprian condemned the Baptisme of Heretikes as vnlawfull wherein a Councell of Carthage of 87. Bishops vnder him erred with him â—ag de ciuitate Dei lib. â—1 c. 17. Origen thought That the diuels themselues should be saued at length Tertullian doeth with Montanus condemne second mariage a In dialog cum Tripho Iud. Iustin the Martyr b Hier. commen in Esay li. 18 in praefat Irenaeus c Euseb hist Ecclesi lib. 3. ca. 36. Papias d De spefidel vt cita ab Hierom Tertulâ—ian e Hier. scrip eâ—cl in ver papias Victorinus f Diâ—â—nar instit lib 7 cap. 23. Lactantius g Hierom. comment in Esay lib. 18 in Psalm Apolinarius h Hierom. comeâ—t in Ezech lib. 11. Seuerus and i Euseb Hist Eccles lib. 7. cap. 23. Nepos did erre in that they thought that Christians after the resurrection should raigne a thousand yéeres with Christ vpon the earth in a golden Ierusalem and there should marrie wiues beget children eate drinke and liue in corporall delights k Irenaeus ad Hier lib. 5 ca. 2â— Irenaeus l Hilar. diuinar instit li 7 ca. 14. Hillarie m Lactant in Matt. Can. 17. Lactantius n Hieron epist 139 ad Cypr. Hierom and o Iust Mâ—rtyr Respon ad Orthod q. 71. Iustin Martyr erred for that they thought that the world should last but sixe thousand yeres which opinion p Aug in Erur Psal 89. de ciuitate Dei lib. 18. cap. 33. S. Augustine doeth reprooue as rash and presumptuous Hillarie erred touching the humanitie oâ— Christ and did not speake of the person of the holy Ghost as the church speaketh Irenaeus erred in affirming That Christ died in the fiftith yeare of his age contrary to the Scriptures Luke 3.23 And Iohn the Euangelist remembreth thrée Passeouers after the Baptisme of Christ and in the third he was crucified as he affirmeth Thus you sée the second Exception iusâ—fified but I will forbeare to enlarge this part any further because I am vnwilling to discouer their nakednes The third Exception is That the Papists themselues reiect the Fathers Bristowes motiues notwithstanding the great brags they make of them as thâ—ugh they were wholly theirs wherein I will bee short as I haue béen in all the rest When we affirme by Saint Hieromes testimony that Pope Liberius subscribed to the Arrians Master Hardin answereth Iewel aga Har. pag 6â— that Hierome was deceiued by a rumour dwelling in the East The Rhemists except against Augustines exposition of these words Vpon this Rocke Mat. 16 sect 8. c. which he expoundeth not of Peters person but of Peters faith Princ. doct li. 6. cap. 3. Also Doctor Stapleton calles the same exposition Lapsus humanus An humane ouersight And yet the same exposition is confirmed by a Gregorie Nissen b Cyril c Chrysostome d Ambrose and e Hillary All agréeing that this Rocke is the confession of Peter Bellarmine reiects S. Augustines interpretation of S. Paul in this place He shall be saued as through fire which Austine interpreteth to be the afflictions or tribulatioÌ„s of this life But Bellarmin expounds it of Purgatory The Rhemists reiect S. Augustines reading Heb. 11. ver 21. who saith 〈◊〉 â—t
the ordainings of Formosus ought to be void And this * Pag 42. 7 Concil Rauen An. Do 898. Sigon de Reg. Itaâ— li. 6. Master Hart against Doctor Raynolds confesseth to be an error in faith And Iohn the ninth in the Councel of Rauenna condemned Stephen and his Councell and therein their new ordainings are forbidden and matched with new Baptizings Pope Coelestine the third did set forth a decrée that when of married persons one falleth into heresie the marriage is dissolued and the Catholike partie is free to marrie againe Mat. 19.9 flat against the Scriptures And Alfonsus Alfon. à Castro aduer Haeres li. 1. ca. 4. a famous patron of the Papacie doeth shewe that he defined it For that Pope Coelestine did erre saith Alfonsus about the marriage of the faithfull of whome one falleth into Heresie It is manifest to all men Neither was this errour of Coelestine such as ought to bee imputed to negligence alone That wee may say he erred as a priuate man and not as a Pope who in defining of any serious matter should aske counsel of learned men For this definition of Coelestine was extant in the olde Decretals which I my selfe haue séene and read Super quart decretal c. quanto de â—iuortijs â— IdeÌ„ siquidem de coÌ„â—ers infid c. audabilem Gratia dist 9. c. in â—omi § â—drian in 4 â—ent de conâ—irma ca. vlt. Gerson Almain Paâ—isieÌ„ses Theâ—logi Decret li 4. â—e diuort â—uanto â— Ibid. praedecessor Decretal li. â— de deâ—oÌ„sa duoruÌ„ 〈◊〉 licet praeter And this is confirmed by Cardinal Hostiensis who noteth the very paragraph of the Chapter in the which it was and speaketh of it as a Decretall And that the Pope may erre in iudgement of faith Gratian Adrian Gerson and Almaine the Diuines of Paris affirme Innocentius the third when he decided the cause confessed that one of his predecessors had decréed otherwise which saith the Gloze was Coelestinus whose resolution was in the old Decretals and it was euill that Coelestinus sayd Alexander the third in a matter of great importance sayd Quamuis aliter à quibusdam praedecessoribus nostris sit aliquando iudicatum Though some of our predecessors haue heretofore otherwise giuen iudgement And if you obiect for you will euer find some shift that these were matters of mariage and not of faith as though the seuering of those whome God hath ioyned did not touch the faith â—e conse â—istin 2. Ego Beren Nicolaus the second in a Councell of 114. Bishops appointed Berengarius to confesse That the very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and bruised in pieces with the téeth of the faithfull And this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishops of Italy Germany and France as Catholike which your owne Gloze saith Ibid. c. dentibus is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outwarde formes of Bread and Wine and not of the body of Christ Honorius the Pope did hold and teach the Monothelites heresie 1. Tim. 3 16 Luk. 22.42 who whereas Christ is made our Sauiour and Redéemer by that he doeth consist of two natures God and man and as of two natures so of two willes agréeable to the natures they say that Christ hath but one will onely and by consequent but one nature The sixt general Councel hath handled the cause of the Monotholite heretikes in 18. actions as they are tearmed In the first action the 8. and the 11. the heretikes alleage in their owne defence that Pope Honorius taught as they do In the 12. 13. his writings are examined his heresie discouered himselfe condemned and cursed In the 16. 17 18. Honor. haâ—retico Anthema the sentence which was giuen against him and the curse are repeated often againe and againe with acclamation of the Councel yea the principal point of his Decrées Vid Raynâ— ver Hart â— diu 2. pag 293. set forth to teach the Church was the Monothelites heresie this is confirmed by chiefe Papists Abbas Vrsâ—erg Ann. 1080. â—aâ—ciculus â—er sciendar â—n vita â—est Hildeâ—randi Pope Gregory the 7. was condemned by the Bishops of France and Germany as the ancient disciple of the Heretike Berengarius and swaruing from the true faith And in speciall words This is Hildebrands Decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and faith Now let the indifferent Reader iudge betwéene you and vs whether the Pope be a competent iudge But how may it appeare that to him is committed so great a charge and that his sentence is so absolute that all authorities of Scripture Fathers and Councels must submit themselues to his Censure Papist The absolute authority of his Holinesse is prooued by many places of Scripture as Thou art Peter Mat. 16.18 and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it â—uk 22.32 and I haue prayed for thee Peter that thy faith faile not and Thou being conuerted strengthen thy brethren and Feede my sheepe â—oh 21.17 Feede my lambes And many other places of Scriptures Fathers and Councels doe conferre this speciall priuiledge vpon Peter and Peters Successours By which means all Controuersies whatsoeuer may be determined Protestant This is strange Diuinitie and stranger Logicke Christ sayd Thou art Peter vpon this Rocke will I build my Church Ergo the Church is builded onely vpon Peter and the Pope The gates of hell shall neuer preuaile against the Church Ergo Peter and the Pope are the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile I haue prayed for thée Peter that thy faith faile not Ergo whatsoeuer is determined by the Pope is not subiect to error And Christ sayd to Peter Feede my shéepe Ergo hée made him supreame head of the Apostles Or thus Christ did charge Peter to féede his shéepe But the Apostles were shéepe of Christ Ergo hee had the charge of féeding them also and so had absolute authority Nowe to make you sée the folly of this manner of reasoning obserue this argument and you shall by that meanes easily discerne the weakenesse of your owne reason Christ did charge his Apostles to preach the Gospel to euery creature But Peter was a creature Ergo they had charge of preaching to him also And this must néedes ouersway your reason if a man would play with words For Christ said not to Peter féede al my sheep but he said to the Apostles preach to euery creature And if these consequents bée good then is it an easie and a safe way to decide all differences and wee might well haue spared all these paines for it will necessarily follow that if the Pope cannot erre in any point of doctrine or discipline of the Church then the Scriptures Fathers Councels are superfluous Act. 15. Neither is that Gloze to any purpose that the Rhemists
Constant Sess 37 and an Heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith One holy Catholike Church Nowe can there bee any doubt that these Popes were neuer comprised in that prayer which Christ made for Peter Or that hel gates haue not preuailed against them When Pope Marcellinus did offer sacrifice to idols as appeares in the Synuessan Councel Pope Liberius subscribed to the Arrians as is testified by S. Hier. confessed by Nicholaus Cusanus and Alfons de Castro both Papists great schoolmen Pope Syluester the 2. was a Necromancer a CoÌ„iurer as Stella Platina Petrus PraemoÌ„strateÌ„sis Nauclerus Antonius do witnes And Pope Anastatius was a NestoriaÌ„ Heretike Li 1. de Haerca 4 as is witnessed by Alfons de Castro And many such instances might be prooued out of their owne stories Thus you sée in what sense soeuer the Papists vnderstand the Church it is proued That it may erre Wherefore are you not singular men to abuse both the scriptures Councels Fathers yea your silly seduced followers with such coÌ„clusions Are these good consequents at Rhemes Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastor of the Lords flocke Ergo none but Peter Euen so may you reason with much more warrant from the scriptures to proue the supremacie to be in Paul For he saith 1 Tim 1. â—â— The glorious Gospel of the blessed God which is committed to me Ergo to none but Paul Yea he saith 2 Cor 11 26 The care of all Churches were coÌ„mitted to him Ergo to none but him This had béen a pregnaÌ„t place for the Papists if it had béen spoken of Peter according to such inferences as they make And to vrge you a little further It is your maner in the Rhemes Test to say often All the Fathers say this and this and I knowe you bragge much of them That you can prooue all the doctrine you hold by them I pray produce their ioint consent to prooue That all controuersies are to be determined by the Pope Or that he cannot erre Or that he must summon Councels Or that they are of no authority vnles they be confirmed by the Pope All this is Catholike doctrine with the Papists and yet I thinke they cannot name any one Father that is ancient and not counterfeit to confirme thus much or to auowe any of these points Is it not strange therefore that you should reiect the Scripture which is the onely rule of faith to build your Religion on such vncertainties as in this small Tract hath béen declared and shewed This Gerson a learned Papist sawe and therefore hée sayth Gers primâ—l part de exa doctrin considerat 5. That there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing them of his side than either to the Popes sentence or to the decrees of a generall Councel This made Cardinal Caietane say In praef coÌ„ment in libr. Moyse That God hath not tied the exposition of the Scriptures vnto the senses of the Fathers And that if he fall vpon a newe sense agreeable to the Texte though it goe against the streame of the Fathers he doth aduise the reader not to mislike it Andrad defensi fidei Trid. li. 2. This made Andradius the defender of the Tridentine Councel to defend Caietan against Canus saying That experience forceth vs to confesse vnlesse we will bee vnthankfull to most excellent wits that very many things in Moyses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly through the diligence of learned men than euer they were before And concludeth that the holy Ghost the onely and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures would haue many things to be knowen to vs which our ancestors knew not And hath wrought by meanes vnknowen to vs knowen to him that the Fathers noted good and godly mysteries out of very many places of the Scripture whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie Thus you sée that if wee bee deceiued Scriptures Popes Councels Fathers and learned and chiefe Papists haue deceiued vs who haue taught the same trueth that wee defend Papist Well What colours soeuer you bring of Scriptures Fathers Councels Popes and learned men of our owne side yet this is an vndoubted position that vnlesse you maintaine that the Church cannot erre and that thereby you vnderstand the definitiue sentence of the Pope you bereaue your selues of all meanes to settle your selues in the vnity of faith neither haue you any meanes to end controuersies For leauing euery man to his owne priuate exposition whiles one expoundeth the Scriptures one way and another another way This sense is plaine in the exposition of the one That sense is contradicted by the opinion of the other there can neuer be end of these differences And therefore there must bee some Tribunall on earth where trueth may bee found at all times and of all men that be willing to seeke for it Otherwise there should bee no stay for Religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to bee trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is truth which were most absurd And therfore since you must of necessitie yeeld to haue a Iudge for auoiding so great inconueniences who can bee fitter than the Pope and the Church Protestant This is Redire ad vomitum and for the auoiding of a lesse fault to fall into a greater Since it is prooued in euery sense where you haue taken the Church That it may erre And therefore how much better were it that there should be continuall disagréement about matters of Religion than to maintaine false doctrine Saint Iude saith It was needefull for me to write vnto you Iude ver 3. to exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once giuen vnto the Saints 1. Cor. 11.19 And Saint Paul saith There must bee Sectes amongst you that they that bee perfect may bee knowen For as wee must respect Vnitie so wee must take héede that it bee Secundum Iesum Christum According to Iesus Christ An vnitie in veritie For better a diuersitie in vnitie than an vnitie in Poperie And therefore wee are commaunded 1 Ioh. 4. 1 Thess 5. to trie the spirits whether they be of God Trie all things and holde fast that which is good Ephes 5. Bee not vnwise but vnderstand what the will of the Lord is Bee renewed in your minde Rom. 12. that you may discerne what the good and acceptable and perfect will of GOD is Phi. 1.9 This I pray that your loue may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all iudgement that you may discerne the things that are best 1. Cor. 2. Hee that is Spirituall discerneth all things These exhortations were not giuen by the Spirit of God in vaine which of necessitie must follow if you debarre all Christians other
for cleane hearts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Idem coÌ„fes li. 13. ca. 23. And againe Wee must not iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it Contr Crescon li. 2 c. 31 And lastly To the Canons of the scripture pertaine certaine books of the Prophets and Apostles the which in any case we may not dare to iudge And this is the reason There may be no iudge of Trueth where no daÌ„ger of Error is And S. Austin saith Idem epist 19. ad Hier. It is wickednes to make a doubt speaking of the scriptures whether there be any error in theÌ„ or not Therfore there may be no iudges of them but the whole Church must be subiect to theÌ„ with all humility beleeue them And yet will the Papists assume vnto themselues to be Iudges of the scriptures appoint which shall be Canonical which shal be Apocrypha A Iudge we grant must haue two things before he be competent namely skill to discerne that he misse not the truth power to command that his iudgement may take place Now if he want either of these he is no fit Iudge And that the Pope hath neither of these thus I proue For the first I haue proued he may erre therfore no man is bound to his iudgment further thaÌ„ it is agréeable to the truth And to adde one proofe more the Councel of Basil saith This priuiledge Conc. Basil epist Syno 8 not to erre hath not been granted by a common or perpetual law to any not to the Angels for many of them fell not to our first parents for they were deceiued not vnto the chiefe Bishops for many of them are read to haue fallen into error and Heresie And as it is absurd to referre the iudgement to one man so is it also to intitle the church of Rome to be The Catholike Church since their chiefe Schoolemen and lights of the Papists Petr. a Soto contr coÌ„fess Wittenburg ca. de CoÌ„cil AlfoÌ„s à Castro aduer Haer. li. 1. c. 8. CoÌ„f. Petric cap. 24. contr BreÌ„t li. 2. Disput adu Luther tom 6. deauthoritat potest vniuers eccles ca. 5. Ibid. ca. 1. Sotus Alfonsus Hosius and Verratus doe witnesse that any particular Church may erre But that the Church of Rome is a particular Church the same Verratus affirmeth nor can the rest deme it And as he may erre so hath he no power to command princes or others but onely to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must and may by vertue of his vocation Further authority by violence to compell or by corporall and external means to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the Lawe of GOD since that belongeth to the Sworde which the Prince and not the Pope beareth Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. as Saint Paul witnesseth and also Peter from whose right the Pope makes claime to this superioritie But me thinkes I still heare them obiect that all this while wee appoint not who shall bee Iudges or at least Discerners of Truth And to that we answer Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe for we find no place nor person to whom the Sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his will but onely to himselfe and the Scriptures And that you may knowe this is not our priuate opinion a slander which you often obiect learne what Optatus S. Aug. hath set downe in this case Christ saith Optat. hath dealt with vs as an earthly father is wont with his children Lib. 5. coni Permenia Donat. who fearing lest they should fall out after his decease doth set down his Will in writing vnder witnesses if there arise debate among the brethren they goe to the testament Hee whose worde must end our controuersie is Christ let his Will be sought in his TestameÌ„t Which reason of Optatus S. Aug. vrging against the Donatists as he doth often We are brethren saith he to them why doe we striue Aug. in Psal 21. exposi 2 Our Father died not intestate he made a Testament and so died Men doe striue about the goods of the dead till the Testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read The Iudge doeth hearken the Councellors be silent the Crier bids peace all the people is attentiue that the words of the dead may be read and heard He lieth void of life and feeling in his graue and his words preuaile Christ doth sit in heauen is his Testament gainesayd Open it let vs reade we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes bee pacified Our Father hath not left vs without a Testament He that made the Testament is liuing for euer He doth heare our words he doth know his owne word Let vs reade why doe wee striue Were not this a silly speach of S. Austin if Traditions were to be receiued with equall Reuerence to the Scriptures or that Councels or Popes had such absolute authoritie But it séemes S. Austin ascribed more to this Testament than to any Pope or Councel whatsoeuer And to conclude this point Optatus in the Question of the Catholikes with the Donatists whether one should be twice baptised Li. 5. contr â—ermen Doâ—at You saith he say it is lawfull Wee say it it not lawfull Betweene your it is lawfull and our it is not lawfull the peoples soules doe doubt and wauer Let none beleeue you nor vs we are all contentious men Iudges must be sought for if Christians they cannot be giuen of both sides for trueth is hindered by affections A Iudge without must be sought for If a Panime he cannot know the Christian mysteries If a Iew he is an enemie to ChristiaÌ„ baptisme No Iudgement therefore of this matter can be found in earth a Iudge in Heauen must bee sought for But why knocke wee at heauen when here we haue the Testament of Christ in the Gospel Belike Optatus and S. Austin were not so wise in those dayes as our Iesuites and Papists are now for they could easily haue put doubts and scruples touching the sense of the Scriptures and could skilfully haue inforced such obiections as these and in all doubts could easily haue assigned their Pope as an Absolute Iudge But it is euident by the iudgement of these two Reuerend Fathers that we can haue no fit Iudge on earth Ioh. 12. God must therefore iudge vs by his word To which all the Fathers doe submit themselues and their writings as is before prooued and alleaged Yea we are warranted by the Prophet Osea to iudge our Mother as it is in the vulgar Translation and to contend with her that she is not the spouse of Christ Hos 2. nor he her husband that she may take away her fornications and adulteries c. as it is more at large in the Text. Thus haue