byshops and cleargie in a prouince and if Cyprian will neyther allow of the title of archbyshop nor of the authoritie and office but in playne wordes speaketh agaynst both we may conclude that M. Doctor hath done very vnaduisedly to lay so great waight of the archbyshop vppon S. Cyprians shoulders that wâ—ilnot only not beare any thing of hym but which hath done all that coulde be to make hym goe a foote and hand in hand with hys fellowes There are other reasons which M. Doctor vseth as thys a notable one S. Cyprian speaketh not of the vsurped power of the byshop of Rome therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbyshop and metropolitane It is hard to call thys argument to any head of fallation for it hath not so much as a colour of a reason I thincke it can deceiue no body but your self An other reason is that all the godlyest best learned meÌ„ do expound the place of Cyprian in the 3. epist. of the first booke of an archbyshop The vanitie of thys saying that the godly learned wryters so expound it I haue shewed before and heere it commeth to be considered agayne I will not say that no godly nor learned wryter expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authoritie of an archbishop But first I desire M. Doctor to set downe but one and then I will leaue it to thy consyderation gentle reader to thincke whether M. Doctor hath red any learned or godly mans exposition to be suche when he hath not red those which are nearest hym I meane our owne countrey men I say he hath not red them because I woulde thinke charitably so of hym rather then that he shoulde haue red them and yet speake vntruely of them and father those things of them which they neuer speake M. Iewell the byshop of Sarisburie expounded thys place and yet dyd neuer expounde it of the office and authoritie of an archbyshop of all the byshops and clergie of the prouince but cleane contrarywise applyeth it to the authoritie that euery byshop had in hys diocesse hys wordes are these Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only byshop that is generally spoken of all byshops is a guilefull fetch to misseleade the reader and no simple nor playne dealing Heere you see that M. Iuel doth not vnderstande thys of any archbyshop but of euery byshop M. Nowel Deane of Poules hauing occasion to speake of this place sayth on thys sort So that when he speaketh meaning Cyprian of one byshop one iudge in the churche for the time or of the byshop whych is one and ruleth the church absolutely he meaneth euery byshop in his owne diocesse wythout exception If he speake specially he meaneth the byshop of the citye or diocese wherof he entreateth whether it be the byshop of Rome Carthage or any other place M. Fore also expoundeth thys of euery byshop wythin hys owne churche or diocese You heare the iudgement of these three wryters that can not picke out neyther the name nor the office of an archbyshop out of Cyprians place and yet I thinke you wil not deny but these were learned and godly wryters Now I haue shewed you three I aske once againe of you one godlye and learned wryter that expoundeth it as you doe And by thys time I suppose all men vnderstande what a small friend S. Cyprian is eyther to the name or office of an archbyshop Let vs heare whether Ierome make any more for the archbyshop then did Cyprian The Hebrues doe deriue the name of time of a verbe whych signifyeth to corrupt because in dede it doth corrupt all and as the times are so are meÌ„ which liue in them that euen very good men carye the note of the infection of the times wherin they liue and the streame of the corruption therof being so vehemeÌ„t and forcible doth not only driue before it light things but it cateth also and weareth the very hard and stony rockes and therfore there is not to be loked for such sinceritie at Ierome his hand whych we found in S. Cyprian considering that he liued some ages after Cyprian what time sathan had a great deale more darkned the cleare light of the sonne of the gospell then it was in S. Cyprians time For as those that came nearest vnto the apostles times because they were nearest the light â–ª did see best so those that were further of from these lightes had vntill the time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke and cloudy and consequeÌ„tly did see more dimly whych is diligently to be obserued of the reader bothe the better to vnderstand the state of thys question and all other controuersies whych lie betweene vs and the papistes And although Ierome besides his other faultes might haue also in thys matter spoken more soundly yet we shall easely perceiue that he is a great deale further from eyther the title or office of an archbyshop or else from the authority that a byshop hath with vs then he is from the simplicity of the ministery which ought to be and is commended vnto vs by the worde of God. And heere I must put M. Doctor in remembrance howe vnfitly he hath dedicated his boke vnto the churche whych hath so patched it and peeced it of a number of shreds of the doctors that a sentence of the scripture eyther truely or falsely alledged is as it were a Phenix in thys boke If he would haue had the church beleue hym he oughte to haue setled their iudgement and grounded their faith vpon the scriptures whych are the only foundations whervpon the church may build Nowe he doth not only not geue them grounde to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes whych they can not folowe nor come after him For except it be those whych are learned and besides haue the meanes and abilitye to haue the bokes whych are heere cited which are the least and smallest portion of the church how can they know that these things be true whych are alledged and as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay them selues vpon and quiet their conscience in allowing that which M. Doctor would so faine haue them like of Therefore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto the learned and riche whych haue furnished libraries Ierome sayeth that at the first a byshoppe and an Elder whych you call priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed that one should rule ouer the rest Now I say against this order that the bishop shoulde beare rule ouer all that which our sauioure Christ sayth vnto the Pharises from the beginning it was not so and therefore I require that the first order may stande which was that a byshop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie agaynst the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian sayth vnto you
in hys Diocese hath the ordering of all matters within the circuite thereof and therfore the meaning of the Councell to bee that if there be any affaires that touche the whole Churche many lande that the Byshoppes shoulde doe nothing without making the Metropolitane priuy as also the Metropolitane myght doe nothing without making the other Byshops a counsell of that which he attempted which maister Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if thys authoritie which the councell geueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authorytie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father thys Canon which was ordayned in thys councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsly of the name of the Apostles to geue creadite vnto thys Canon doth cary with it a note of euill and of shame which they woulde haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie And in the hundreth twentie and three page to that which Maister Bucer sayeth that in the Churches there hath bene one which hath beene cheefe ouer the rest of the mynisters if he meane one cheefe in euery particulare churche or one cheefe ouer the mynisters of dyuers churches meeting at one Synode and cheefe for the time and for such respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is And if he meane any other cheefe or after any other sort I deny that any such cheefety was from the Apostles tymes or that any suche cheefetie pleaseth the holye ghoste whereof I haue before shewed the proufes And wheras M. Bucer seemeth to allow that the name of a byshop which the holy ghost expresly geueth to all the ministers of the word indifferently was appropriated to certen cheefe gouernoures of the church I haue before shewed by dyuers reasons how that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the end great hurt to the church And if M. Doctor delyght thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holy ghost and to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluin doth openly misselyke of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certayne which the holy ghost maketh common to moe And whereas of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honor in the mynistery M. Doctor would gather an archbyshop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euangelist an Euangelist aboue a pastor a pastor aboue a doctor and he aboue an elder that ruleth only he needed neuer to haue gone to the popish Hierarchie to seeke hys dyuersities of degrees which he myght haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines words which sayeth that Paule was one of the cheefe amongst the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an archbyshop amongst the byshops he should haue remembred that S. Paules cheeftie amongst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoritie or domynion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more then the rest and in giftes more excellent then the rest Now where as hee sayeth that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule myght be in oure handes and we myght doe what we list and that we seeke to wythdraw oure selues from controlement of Prince and Byshoppe and all Firste hee may learne if hee will that wee desire no other authoritie then that which is to the edifying of the church and which is grounded of the word of God which if any mynister shall abuse to hys gayne or ambytion then he ought to abyde not only the controlement of the other mynisters yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the faulte And seeing you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the mynisters and clergy came to the byshops and archbyshops when as the Pope dyd exempt hys shauelinges from the obedience subiection and iurisdiction of the Princes now therfore that we be ready to geue that subiection vnto the Prince and offer our selues to the Princes correction in things wherein we shall doe a misse doe you thincke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to bee disburdened of the byshops and archbyshops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes And in the. 207. page vnto the middest of the 214. page thys matter is agayne handled where first M. Doctor would draw the place of Galathians the second to proue an archbyshop and that by a false translation for hoi dokountes which is they that seemed or appeared he hath translated they the are the cheefe although the place of the Galathians may be thought of some not so pregnant nor so full agaynst the archbyshop yet all must needes confesse that it maketh more against him then for him For S. Paules purpose is to proue there that he was not inferioure to any of the Apostles bringeth one argument thereof that he had not his gospel from them but from Christ immediatly therfore if the apostles that were estemed most of and supposed by the Galathians others to be the cheefe had no superioritie ouer S. Paule but were equall wyth hym it followeth that there was none that had rule ouer the rest And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler ouer the rest there seemeth to be no neede that one byshoppe should rule ouer the rest But that I run not backe to that I haue handled before I will not heere so much vrge the place as I will not doe also that of the Hebrues which followeth and yet the argument is stronger then that M. Doctor coulde answere For if the wryter to the Hebrues doe proue our sauiour Christes vocation to be iust and lawfull because hys calling was contayned in the scriptures as appeareth in the 5. and 6. verse then it followeth that the calling of the archbishop which is not comprehended there is neither iust nor lawfull For that no man sayth the apostle taketh that honour vnto hym selfe but he that is called of god c. But I say hauing before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which ouerthrow the archbyshoppe I will let passe these and other places answearing only that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them He sayth therefore afterwarde that although one man be not able to be byshop ouer all the church yet he may be byshop ouer a whole diocese or of a prouince Now if I wold say the one is as impossible as the other for proofe thereof alleage that which the Philosophers say that as there are no degrees in that which is infinite so that of thinges which are infinite one thing can not be more infinite then an other so there are no degrees in impossibilitie that of thinges which are impossible one thyng shoulde bee more impossible then an other If I shoulde thus reason I thincke I shoulde putte you to some payne
is mentioned of one Theodotus who is sayd to haue seperated or excommunicated Apollinaris but it doth not appeare there that he alone of hys owne authority dyd excommunicate hym And there be great reasons in that Chapter to proue that he dyd it not of hys owne authority for immediatly after his heresy was knowne Damasus bishop of Rome and Peter bishop of Alexandria caused a sinode to be gathered at Rome where hys heresy was condemned Now for so much as the custome of synodes and councels is when they condenme the heresyes to excommunicate the heretickes it is to be thoughte that that councell dyd excommunicate hym and that Theodotus byshop of Laodicea dyd execute that decree and excommunication And in deede Sozomene doth so expound hym selfe when immediatly after he had sayde that he dyd excommunicate him he addeth acoinonetoh auton apophainei whych is that he declared him excommunicate whych in deede properly belongeth to the minister when the excommunication is decreed by those to whoÌ„ it appertaineth Whych thing may yet better appeare by the manner of speache whych is vsed in an other place where speaking of â—ictor excommunycating Theodotus he vttereth it by thys apekeryxe whych is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence whych was decreed by others As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor yet he was neuer commended for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone and if he dyd excommunicate him himselfe alone yet hys fault was the les for so much as he being desirous of an eldershyp could not as it semeth by hys complaint which I haue spoken of before â—â—â—aine one And although the storyes doe not make mention y there were others whose authority came into thys excommunication yet it followeth not y there were no other And how often wil you stomble at that which you do so sharply reproue in others whych is in making of arguments of authority negatiuely And if you will not grauÌ„t thys manner of reasonyng in the scripture in matters pertaining to the gouernment of the church whych are all comprehended in the scripture how would you reason of a common story whych neither can nor dothe professe to speake all those things whych fall into that matter whych it wryteth of But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of hys owne authoritye but by the authoritye also of others will you then confesse that he is commended of all those whych wryte stories for so doing and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue church was far from thys that is nowe For proufe whereof I will geue you a place whych Ambrose the best wytnes of thys matter hath in one of his epistles wher he sheweth that assone as the murther whych Theodosius had caused to be done at the citye of Thessalonica was heard by and by the byshops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode where also Ambrose sayeth that hys communicating wyth Theodosius coulde not absolue hym for that as it myght appeare the byshops in that synode had in excommunicating hym ordained that he should not be absolued vntill suche tyme as he had done repentance whych he did afterward with confessyon of his faulte before the congregation and asking forgeuenes of it So it appeareth that that whych he did he did it by the sentence of the synode and not of hys owne authority alone In the. 220. 221. pages he speaketh of thys thing a fresh but hath no newe matter but maketh a bare rehersall of the places of the admonition asking after hys accustomed manner of confuting what maketh thys or what proueth that only wheras he sayd before and proued as he thought that the minister had only to do wyth excommunication being pressed there by the admonition either to defend or renounce hys Chauncellors c. he had rather deny bothe the truth and himselfe then he wold haue any of that horrible confusion and prophanation of the holy discipline of God brought in by popery threatnyng the ouerthrow of the whole church seruing for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idlenes of a fewe driuen out of the church Of the whych I will vpon occasion speake a word if first I shewe that the vse of the auncyent church hath bene not to permit the excommunication to one but that the sentence therof should come from the gouernors and elders of the church vnto whome that dyd especially appertaine Although I can not passe by that which M. doctor sayth that for so much as the authors of the Admonition had alledged the words tell the church to proue the interest of the church in excommunication that therefore they could not vse the same to proue the interest of the pastor as who should saye that the pastor is not one of the church But of the absurdity of this I haue spoken sufficiently before and how all men do see the vanity of thys reason that because that people haue an interest by thys place therfore the pastor hath none But I come to shew the vse of the primitiue church in thys matter wherof we haue a manifest testimony in Tertullian If sayth he there be any whych hath committed suche a faulte that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church and from all holy matters or affaires there do beare rule or be presidents certaine of the most approued auncients or elders whych haue obtayned thys honor not by mony but by good report And that the auncients had the ordering of these things and the peoples consent was required and that if the case were a very difficult case it was referred vnto the synodes or councels and that the ministers dyd not take vpon them of their owne authority to excommunicate and that those whych dyd receiue the excommunicate wythout the knowledge consent of the churche were reprehended it may appeare almost in euery page of Cyprians Epistles and namely in these whych I haue noted in the margent In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the church was required for in the third boke agaynst the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the party both afrayde and ashamed that he be excommunicated or anathematised as he calleth it by all the churche and in hys bookes de Baptis contra Donatistas in diuers places he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man that he semeth to fal into the other extremity whych is to make the estate of the church to populare and the people to haue too great a sway For there he sheweth that if the most of the people be infected wyth the fault whych is to be punyshed by excommunication that then no excommunication ought to be attempted for because a sufficient numbre of voyces will not be obtained
wrytings and paraphrases vpon the scryptures are estemed comparable in that kinde of paraphrasticall wryting wyth any whych hath laboured that wayes And if any mennes wrytings were to be red in the church those paraphrases whych in explanyng the scrypture go least from it and whych kepe not only the numbre of sentences but almost the very numbre of words were of all most fitte to be red in the churche Seeing therfore I say the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church and contented it selfe wyth the scryptures it can not be but a moste dangerous attempt to bryng any thyng into the church to be red besydes the word of god Thys practise continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times as may apeare by the second Apologie of Iustin Martyr which sheweth that theyr manner was to read in the church the monuments of the prophets and of the apostles and if they had red any thyng else it is to be supposed that he would haue set it downe consydering that hys purpose there is to shewe the whole order whych was vsed in their churches then The same may appear in the first Homilye of Oregine vpon Exodus and vpon the Iudges And as for M. Bucers authoritye I haue shewed before how it ought to be wayghed heere also it is suspitious for that it is sayd that hys aduise was when the lord should blesse the realme wyth moe learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilyes whych should be red in the church vnto the people As if M. Bucer dyd not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme whych were able to make homilies so many as the volume of them myght easely haue exceeded the volume of the Byble if the multytude of homilyes would haue done so much good And if the authority of M. Bucer beare so great a sway wyth M. Doctor that vpon hys credite only wythout eyther scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those whych are now he dare thrust into the church homilies then the authorities of the most ancient best councels ought to haue ben considered whych haue geuen charge that nothyng should be red in the church but only the canonicall scriptures For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea the nothing shuld be red in the church but the canonicall bokes of the olde and newe testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterward as corruptions grew in the church it was permitted that homilies myght be red by the deacon when the minister was sicke and coulde not preach and it was also in an other councel of Carthage permitted that the martyrs liues might be red in the church But besides the euill successe that those decrees had vnder pretence wherof the popishe legende and Gregories homilies c. crept in that vse and custome was controlled by other councels as may appeare by the coūcell of Colen albeit otherwyse popishe And truely if there were nothing else but thys consideration that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs liues into the church and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not only by thys meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teach all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure And if any man obiect that by thys meanes also is shut out of the churche the forme of ordinary prayers to be sayd I say the case is nothing lyke for when we pray we can not vse the words of the scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so muche as the churche prayeth for diuers thyngs necessarye for it the whych are not contained in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some thyngs whych we haue neede of whereof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needefull that there be a forme of Prayer drawne forthe out of the scrypture whych the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasyon of the time dothe require whych necessity can not be by no meanes alledged in the reading of Homilies or Apochrypha Wherevpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordained in the churche of Englande where bothe Homilies and Apochrypha are red especially when as diuers chapters of the bookes called Apocrypha are lyfted vp so high that they are sometime appoynted for extraordinary lessons vpon feastes dayes wherin the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall scripture as certen chapters of the Apocalipse quite left oute and not red at all Vnto the two next sections I haue answeared before where I haue entreated of holy dayes and of kneeling at the Communion it followeth to speake vnto the section contained in the. 183. and. 184. pages ALthough it will be hard for you to proue that thys worde priest commeth of the Greke word presbyteros yet that is not the matter but the case stādeth in thys that for so much as the common and vsuall speach of England is to note by the word priest not a minister of the gospel but a sacrificer which the minister of the gospell is not therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the gospell priests and that thys is the Englishe speache it appeareth by all the English translations whych translate alwayes hiereis whych were sacrificers priests and do not of the other syde for any that euer I red translate presbyteron a priest Seeing therfore a priest wyth vs and in our tonge dothe signifye both by the papistes iudgement in respect of their abhominable masse and also by the iudgement of the protestant in respect of the beasts whych were offered in the law a sacrificing office whych the minister of the gospell neyther dothe nor can execute it is manifest that it can not be wythout great offence so vsed The next three sections I haue before answeared wher I haue spoken of the abuses in baptisme crossing and interrogatories it foloweth to speake vnto the section contained in 194. 195. 196. pa. IF it be M. Bucers iudgement whych is alledged heere for the ring I see that sometimes Homere sleapeth For first of all I haue shewed that it is not lawfull to institute new signes and sacraments and then it is dangerous to doe it especially in this whych confirmeth the false and popyshe opinion of a sacrament as is alledged by the admonition And thirdly to make suche fonde allegories of the laying downe of the money of the roundnes of the ring and of the mystery of the fourth finger is let me speake it wyth hys good leaue very ridiculous and farre vnlike hym selfe And fourthly that he wil haue the minister to preach vpon these toyes surely it sauoreth not of the learning and sharpnes of the
A REPLYE TO AN answere made of M. Doctor VVhitegifre AGAINSTE THE ADMONITION to the Parliament By T. C. ISAIE 61. ver 1. For Syons sake I will not holde my tonge and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest vntill the righteousnes therof breake forthe as the lighte and the saluation thereof be as a burning lampâ— Ver. 6. 7. Ye that are the Lordes remembrancers keepe not silence and geue hym no rest vntill he repayre and set vp Ierusalem the prayse of the world The Printer to the Reader SOme perhaps will maruel at the newe impression of thys boke and so muche the more will they wonder because they shall see that with great confidence boldnes notwythstanding our most gracious Princes late published proclamation procured rather by the Byshops then willingly sought for by her maiestie whose mildnes is such that she were easyer led to yelde to the proclamation of the highest then drawne to proclaime any thing against hym were it not for the subtil perswasions and wicked dealings of thys horned generation as by their false doctrine and cruell practises is to bee seene and by the speciall motion of Gods spirite and hys protection it hath bene both attempted and ended But cease to muse good christian reader whosoeuer thou art and learne to know that no lawes were they neuer so hard and seuere can put out the force of Gods spirite in hys children nor any cruelty though it stretched it selfe so far as to sheding of bloud from which kynde of dealing the Byshops are not cleare as the Prysons in London the Gatehouse at Westminster c. can witnesse the Lord for geue them and vs our sinnes can discharge the sayntes and seruauntes of the Lord from going forwarde in that which is good For the profite therefore of the godly and their instruction haue we hazarded our selues and as it were cast our selues into suche daungers and troubles as shal be layed vpon vs if we come into the haÌ„ds of the persecuting Bishops From the which pray the Lord if it be hys will to delyuer vs if not yet that it woulde please hym to geue vs both patience to beare what so euer he shall geue them power and lyberty to lay vpon vs and constancy also to contynue in hys truth and the profession thereof vnto our lyues end Farewell in the Lord and prayse God for thys worke I. S. Faultes escaped Page 2. line 14. for arme read army pa. 60. line 30. for thys spirite read hys spirite Page 39. line 41. for when read whom pa. 39. line 47. for against them read agaynst hym Page 26. line 37. for appose read oppose pa. 23. line 31. for ioipon read loipon and for proegoron read proegoros pa. 10. li. 41. for kairoutiche read kairou tyche pa. 69. for dioceris diocesis Page 9. line 16. put a comma at speache and a full poynt at vse Page 106. line 12. for to breake read doe breake Page 118. line 31. in the ende therof adde whych thyng also M. Doctor graunteth Page 127. line 6. for I beleue read I wil beleue page 127. line 8. For the apostles read For the false Apostles page 129. line 51. for and more in the read and more to in the. Page 130. line 41. for sole meditation read sole mediation page 137. line 49. for and that it is read and it is page 138. line 4. for ingenium read ingenuum page 138. line 14. for necessary read necessarily page 141. line 15. for there is greater read there is a greater Page 142. line 32. for and other read an other page 144. line 7. for herevpon read herevnto Page 144. line 51. for celebrating in one kinde read celebrating it in one kinde Page 146. line 18. for the other vsed in the other vsed only in pa. 160. li. 23. for tute read true Page 163. line 43. for there were many read there were very many page 174. line 3. for Ambose read Ambrose page 188. line 29. for in England or in Ireland read and in England Page 189. line 8. for vicarse read vicares page 1â—8 in the margent for Concil Valense reade Concil Vasense page 201. in the margent adde to that of August lib. 2. de consolatione mortuorum cap. 5. page 207. line 42. read for catexochen read cathexochen Page 205. line 21. for possessed read dysposesssed Page 210. line 46. and other thyngs and do other thyngs pa. 214. li. 15. for iabon read labon Page 215. line 20. for or so much deceyued of read or so much as deceiued A short Table of the princypall poyntes entreated of in thys boke made according to the order of the Alphabet A  M. Doctors Anacletus counterfait 92. M. Doctors Anicetus counterfait 92. There are now no Apostles 63. The churche was established in the Apostles tymes 51. Apostles appoynted no archbyshoppes but byshoppes 92. Corruptions entred into the church immediatly after the times of the apostles 96. Apparell of the mynisters 71. c. Apparell of mourners is either hypocriticall or els daungerous to prouoke excessiue sorrow 201. Archbyshops archdeacons names vnlawfull 82. c. Archbyshops names are not so auncient as they be supposed 88. c. Archbyshops and archdeacons offyces vnlawfull 83. c. Archbishops offices as they were in times past haue now no place with vs and of the small prerogatiue which they had then aboue other byshops 122. c. Archbyshops not spoken of by Cyprian nor bishops such as oures is but of S. Paules bishops 98. c. Archdeacons in times past how much they differed from oures now 96. Arguments of authority negatiuely or affirmatiuely out of the scripture good the vse of theÌ„ when they be drawne from men 25. B  QuestioÌ„s about Baptisme answered 172. c. QuestioÌ„s ministred to infaÌ„ts in Baptisme 169 Crossing in Baptisme wherof it rose 170. c Basile a poore Metropolitane 94. Byshops in tymes past most vnlike oure byshops now 106. c. General faults of the Boke of coÌ„mon prayer 131. Prescript forme of prayer at Burials inconuenient 200. Les lamenting the dead and les charges about Burials permitted vnto vs then to those vnder the law 200. c. Buryall sermons inconuenient 201. c. Buryall places where they were in the olde churches 69. C  Cathedral churches in times past those which are now greatly differ 204. Cathedral churches rightly called dens do hurt the good which they might do if they were conuerted into colledges or houses of study 205. â— â–ª Ceremonies must be tried by rules in the scripture and by which 27. Ceremonies making in the church belongeth vnto Ecclesiasticall persons 192. Difference betwene placing Ceremonies in the church which were not besâ—â—e tollerating those which are already placed 25. Chauncelers iurisdiction vnlawfull 188. c. Church hath not power to ordayne whether preaching or ministring of the sacramentes shal be priuate or publike 28. Church must not be framed vnto the common wealth but the
we teach nothing les thē that there is no true church but in Englande If the churches be considered in the partes whether minister or people there is none pure vnspotted and this is the faith of the true Church and not of the Donatistes If it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outward pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I know if men would labor to purge it The Donatists vaūted them selues to be exempted from sinne and what likelyhode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansy of the Donatists To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of religion denying it to be true I reserue the further answer to another place To the next section Salomon sayth the the beginning of the words of an vnwise mā is folishnes but the later end of thē is mere madnes euen so it falleth out by you for whilest you suffer your self to be caryed hedlong of your affections you hurle you know not what nor at whome what so euer commeth first to hande speake things that the eyes and eares of all men heare see to be otherwise Whilest you compare them to Anabaptists Donatists some frend of yours myght thinke you said truely because such alwayes seking darke and solitary places might happely haue some fauorers whych are not knowen But when you ioyne them with y papists which are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they impugne as wel as you whose marks badges they can les away with then you whose company they flie more then you whose punishment they haue called for more then you for your part haue done and therfore are condemned of them as cruell when you oftentimes cary away the name of mildnes and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commaundement in the scrypture to put heretikes to death when I say you ioyne them thus with papistes you do not only leese your credite in these vntrue surmises wherein I trust with the indifferent reader you neuer had any but you make all other thyngs suspected whych you affirme so that you geue men occasion to take vp the common prouer be against you I will trust you no further then I see you After you haue thus yoked them wyth the papistes you go about to shew wherin they draw wyth them Wherin first I aske of you if all they that affirm or do any thing that the enemies of the church do are forthwith ioyned and conspired wyth them against the church what say you to s Paule that ioyned with the * Pharisies in the resurrection with the false apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians to oure sauioure Christe which spake against the Iewes whych were then the only people of God as the Gentils did whych were their ennemies wil you say therfore that either S. Paule ioyned with the Pharisies or false Apostles against the church or that our sauioure Christ ioyned against the Iewes wyth the Gentiles but let vs see your slaunders particularly To the first They do not deny but there is a visible church of God in England therfore your saying of them y they do almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so much as any outward face shew of the true church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you which vpon one word once vttered contrary to the tenure of their boke course of their whole life surmise this of thē and how truly you conclude of that word skarce it shall appeare when we come to that place To the second I haue answered this in the 2. article of Anabaptisme the you charge vs with To the third Thys also is answered in the thirde To the fourth I answer that they do not condemne it wholely but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing wyth the word of God. To the fifth All men shall perceiue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their words to an other sense then they spake them In the meane season it is enough that they confes that reading in the church is godly To the sixth I haue answeared in the tenth Article of Anabaptisme To the seuenth I answer that * Doeg when he sayd that Dauid came to Abimelech said nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christe that he sayde * destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe sayde nothing but that our sauior Christ sayd But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses because the one spake it of minde to hurt the other vnderstode it of an other temple then oure sauioure Christ ment it So although you doe in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning whych myght easely appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can be free from these faultes vnles it be done ignorantly whych I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wil desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with papists against the church The papistes mislyke of the boke of common prayer for nothing els but because it swarueth from their masse boke and is not in all poynts like vnto it And these men mislike it for nothyng els but because it hath too much likelyhode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned wyth the papists whych would haue no communion nor felowship wyth them neither in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they whych forsaking their doctrine retaine parte of their ceremonies and almost their whole gouernment that is they that seperate them selues by three walles or by one they that would be parted by the brode sea from them or which would be deuided by narowe water where they may make a bridge to come in againe and displace the truthe of the gospell as they haue done in times past They that would not only vnhorse the Pope but also take away the stirrops whereby he should neuer get into the saddle agayne or they which being content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies hys gouernment especially as stirrops whereby he may leape vp againe when as occasion serueth They that are content only to haue cut the armes and body of the tree of antichristianitie or they which wold haue stumpe and roote all vp The last section After you haue all to be blacked and grimed wyth the inke of Anabaptisme Donatisme and Papisme those whome you found cleare from the least spot or specke of any of them you whet the sword and blow the fire and you will haue the godly magistrate minister of your choler and therfore in stead of feare of leesing the multitude of your liuings forgoing your pompe and pride of men and delicacy of fare vnlawfull iurisdiction which you haue and heereafter loke for conscience religion and
disciplyne no church For they deny we haue the word or sacramēts because we hold not theyr word sacrifice but if there be that so reason yet these men that you charge haue neyther any such antecedent or such a consequent for they neuer sayde that there is no ministerie in Englande nor yet do euer conclude that there is no worde no sacraments no dysciplyne nor church For in saying that the face of the church doth not so much appeare for so the whole proces of their booke doth declare that they meane when they say that we haue not scarse the face of the church they graunt that we haue the church of God but that for want of those ornaments which it shuld haue and through certayne the deformed ragges of poperie which it should not haue the churche doth not appeare in her natiue colours and so beautifull as it is meete she should be prepared to so glorious a husband as is the sonne of god Say you certaynly and doe you beleue that the authors of thys booke are conspired wyth the papystes to ouerthrow thys church and realme Now certaynly I will neuer doe that iniury vnto them as once to go about to purge them of so manifest slaunders nor neuer be brought by the outrage of your speaches to proue that noone day is not mydnight And therfore as for you I will set your conscience and you together The reader I will desire not to thinke it a strange thing For it is no other then hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same relygion which they dyd as it appeareth in Ieremy whiche was accused of certayne of the Israelites that he had conspyred with the Babylonyans their mortall ennemyes and layde to hys charge that he was going to them when he was going to Beniamin To the. 36. 37. 38. page IT maketh for the purpose whiche is alleaged out of the first of the actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chosen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that suche a one must be chosen as hathe bene contynually conuersant with our sauioure Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherein he ascended into heauen he ment nothing els but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had bene contynually a scholer of our sauioure Christe and therefore fitte to teache and to witnes that which they had seene and whose godly conuersation was notoriously knowne Besides that albeit those two Mathyas and Barsabas were therefore set vp in the myddest that the church in the prayer that was made for their election myghte by seeing them pray the earnestlyer for them yet it was also as much to say that if any could obiect any thing agaynst them that he should preferre hys obiection And whether they were examined or no the matter is not great neyther when it is sayde that a tryall should be had it is ment that when the parties are famously knowne to those whych haue the right of trying as that there shoulde be alwayes necessaryly an apposing and examyning so that the sufficiencie of doctryne and holynesse of lyfe for the whych cause the tryall and examynation is commaunded be knowne and agreed vpon by them that choose it is enough And so these two being notoriously knowne and consented of by the churche to bee fitte men myght happely not be examyned but yet the wordes of S. Peter declare playnly that in the choyse of them there was regarde had to both their abilitie to teach and honesty of conuersation And although there be certayne thinges extraordinary in this election as that such a one must be chosen which hadde bene conuersant with our fauioure Christ and that there were two put vp for one place and that it was permitted to lottes to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two as if the Lord should by the lottes from heauen tell who should haue it yet it followeth not to say that the rest of the things that are there vsed should not be practised in ordinary callinges for as much as they will well agree with them And M. Caluin in the place you alledge sayth that the ordinary callinges somwhat differ from the calling of the Apostles and after sheweth wherein that is in that they were appoynted immediatly of God and by his mouthe whereby it appeareth that for the residue of those thyngs whych are there mentioned he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elections And where you saye that the sixt of the Actes because it speaketh of Deacons is nothyng to the matter me thynke you shoulde haue easely vnderstanded that if a triall be necessary in Deacons whych is an vnder office in the church and hath regard but to one parte of the church whych is the pore and is occupied in the distribution of money much more it ought to be in an office of greater charge which hath respect to the whole church and is occupyed in the dispensing of the holy word of God. But in the ende you agree that they shoulde be tryed so that nowe the quection standeth only howe and by what meanes wherein you for your part saye that the booke of ordering mynisters is a suffycient and good rule I haue red it and yet I can not commende it greatly But you will say not wyth iudgement or indifferencie I will promise you with this indifferencie that I wyshed that all that is there were good and conuenyent and such as I myght say vnto so be it Wyth what iudgement I doe disalow it I leaue it to all men to esteeme vpon these reasons First that the examynation of hys doctryne wholely and partly of hys life is permitted to one man For consydering of the one parte the greatnesse of the charge that is committed vnto the mynisters and the horrible pearill that commeth vnto the church by the want of those thinges that are required in them and of the other parte wrighing the weakenesse of the nature of man which althoughe he seeth many thinges yet hee is blynde also in many and that euen in those thinges which he seeth he suffereth hym selfe to be caryed away by his affection of loue or of enuie c. I say considering these thinges it is very daungerous to commit that to the view and searche of one man which may wyth losse danger and more safetie be referred vnto dyuers For herein the prouerbe is true plus vident oculi quam oculus And almost there is no office of charge in thys realme which lyeth in election committed so sleightly to any as that vpon one mans reporte of hys habilitie all the rest which haue interest in the election will geue their voyces so that if we were destitute of authoritie of the scripture the very lyght of reason would shew vs a more safe and weryer way But there is greater authoritie for S. Luke in the first
red that there are now Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruelles if you proue that as you say you will if any denye it I denye it proue you it And that you may haue some thing to doe more then peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these words I will shew you my reasons why I thinke there ought to be none nor can be none vnles they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of thys worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God being sent of God but to the ambassadoure of any Prince or Noble man or that is sent of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the scripture by the trope of Synechdoche for the twelue that oure sauior Christ appoynted to go throughout all the world to preache the gospell vnto the whych number was added S. Paule and as some thinke Barnabas whych are seuered from all other ministers of the gospell by these notes First that they were immediately called of God as s. Paule to the Galathians proueth him selfe to be an apostle because he was not appoynted by men Then that they sawe Christe whych argument S. Paule vseth Am I not an Apostle haue I not seene Christe Thirdly that these had the fielde of the whole worlde to Till where as other are restrained more perticularly as to a certen ploughe lande wherein they shoulde occupye them selues Wherevppon it followeth that as we conclude against the Pope truely that he can be no successor of the Apostles not only because he neyther reacheth nor dothe as they did but because the Apostles haue no successors neither any can succeede into the office of an Apostle so maye we likewise conclude against those that would haue the Apostles nowe adayes that there can be none because there is none vnto whome all these three notes doe agree as that he is bothe sent of God immediately or that he hath seene Christ or that he is sent into all the world And althoughe some Ecclesiasticall wryters do call sometimes good ministers successors of the Apostles yet that is to be vnderstanded because they propound the same doctrine y they did not because they succeded into the same kinde of function whych they could not doe S. Paule doth vse this word Apostle sometimes in hys proper and natiue signification for hym that is publikely sent from any to other as when he speaketh of the brethren that were ioyned wyth Titus whych were sent by the churches wyth reliefe to the pore church in Ierusalem and Iewrie and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle But that is wyth addition and not simply as in the first place he calleth the brethren the apostles of the Churches that is not the apostles of all Churches or sent to all churches but the apostles whych certaine churches sent with the reliefe to other certaine churches and Epaphroditus he calleth not an apostle simply but the apostle of the Philippians that is whych the Philippians sent wyth reliefe to Paule being in prison at Rome as it appeareth in the same Epistle And as for Andronicus and Iunius whych are by you recited belyke to proue that we may haue more apostles because it is sayd of S. Paule that they were famous and notable amongst the apostles it cannot be proued by any thing I see there whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no. For S. Paule calleth them hys kinneffolke and fellowe prisonners and dothe not say that they were his fellowe labourers and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the apostles and well knowne vnto them whych is no apostle And if the apostles would haue had this order of the apostles to continue in the church there is no doubt but that they would haue chosen one into Iames hys roume when he was slaine as they did when they supplied the place of Iudas by chusing Mathias and so euer as they had died the other would haue put other in their places So it appeareth that thys function of the apostles is ceased You aske farther that if a man should not preach before he haue a pastoral charge what they will answere vnto Phillip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they be no pastors yet they may be euangelists whych goe about the countrey heere and there â–ª But this office is ceased in the church as the apostles is sauing that sometime the Lord doth raise vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the churches whych are falne downe pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somewhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons First for because all those that the scripture calleth precisely Euangelists which are only Phillip and Timothe had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is like that Titus and Syluanus and Apollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same manner confirmed but there is no such miraculous confirmation nowe therfore there is no suche vocation For allbeit those that God hathe raised vp in those darke times and ouerthrowes of the church wherof meÌ„tion is made before as M. Luther c. had not their â—allings alwayes confirmed by direct and manifest miracles of hearing or raising vp from the deade yet the maruellous succes and blessing that the Lord gaue vnto their labors were sufficient seales vnto all men that althoughe they had no ordinarie calling nor by men yet they were sent of God That I speake nothing of the miraculous deliuerances that some of them had out of dangers by warning geuen of pearils by those whych were neuer seene before nor after and by such like wonderfull meanes as are to be seene in stories Nowe againe if there should be any Euangelist who should ordaine him you will say the Bishop But I say that cannot be that the greater shoulde be ordained of the les For the Euangeliste is a higher degree in the churche then is the byshop or pastor And if he be so whye hathe he not hys estimation heere in the Churche aboue the Byshop or Archbyshop eyther for the Archbyshop is but a Byshop or whye dothe not he ordaine Byshoppes as Timothe and Titus did whych were Euangelistes being one poynte of their office as * Eusebius declareth Againe if there be in euery churche a pastor as S. Paule commaundeth what should the Euangelists do for either that pastor doth his duetie and then the Euangelist is superfluous or if he do it not then he is no lawfull pastor and so ought he to be put out an other to be put in hys stead And where the pastor doing hys duety can not suffice there the scripture hath geuen him an ayde of the doctor which for because his office consisteth in teaching doctrine to thys ende y the pastor mighte not be driuen to spende so muche time in propounding the
we shall hold out of the church the vnwrytten verities of the papists for my part if it be true that you say I can not tell what to answer vnto them For our answere is to thē the apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the church wrytten and therfore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet because they are superfluous and more then neede Now this degree of archbishop being not only not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is too bold and hardy a speache that I say no more to fetch the petegree of the archbyshop from the apostles times and from the apostles them selues But all thys time M. Doctor hath forgotten hys question whych was to proue an archbyshop wheras all these testimonies whych he alledgeth make mētion only of a bishop and therfore thys may rather confirme the state of the byshop in this realme thē the archbyshop But in the answere vnto them it shall appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbyshop mentioned so except only the name of a bishop there shal be found very little agreemēt betwene the bishops in those dayes and those whych are called byshops in our time with vs. And consequently although M. doctor thought wyth one whiting boxe to haue whited two wals by establishing our archbyshop and byshop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shal be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieroms reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimony of men that is only to be regarded whych is spoken eyther wyth some authority of the scripture or wyth some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speake wythout eyther scripture or reason he is as easely reiected as alledged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedy vnto schismes how so least euery man sayeth he drawing to him selfe to breake the church in peeces But I would aske if the church be not in as great danger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one caryeth all into error as when one pulleth one peece wyth him another an other peece and the third hys partalso wyth him And it is harder to draw many into an error then one or that many should be caryed away by their affections then one whych is euident in water whych if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but being much it is not so easely But by thys ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the cause of discord and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals them selues And admit it were so yet the peace whych is wythout truth is more execrable thē a thousand contentions For as by striking of two flintes togither there commeth out fire so it may be that sometimes by contention the truth whych is hidden in a darke peace may come to light whych by a peace in naughtines and wickednes being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare If therfore superiority domination of one aboue the rest haue such force to keepe men from schismes when they be in the truth it hath as great force to kepe them togither in error and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many thys power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keping them in error if they fall into it as in the truth if they are in it Moreouer if it be necessary for the keping of vnity in the church of England that one archbyshop should be primate ouer all why is it not as meete that for the keping of the whole vniuersall church there should be one archbyshop or byshop ouer all and the like necessity of the byshop ouer all christendome as of the byshop of all England vnles peraduenture it be more necessary that there should be one byshop ouer the vniuersall church then ouer the church of England for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept and schismes be auoyded in the vniuersali church then in the particulare church of England If you say that the archbyshop of England hath hys authority graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas whych was Emperor of all christendome did graunt him hys authority ouer all churches But you will say that it is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therin as you do in diuers poynts here But admit it to be a lie as in dede it is touching Constantine yet I say further that it may come to passe it hath ben that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes whych haue churches What if he then will geue that authority to one ouer all that one king graunteth in hys land may any man accept and take at hys hand such authority and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority tel me what fault you can finde in him whych may not be found in them It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a byshop vnto all the whole church neither is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole church of England For when those which haue ben most excellent in knowledge and wisedome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue found enough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he whych absent is able to discharge hys duety toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as by Archdeacons Chauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what doe you else say then the Pope whych sayeth that by hys Cardinalles and archbyshoppes and Legates and other suche like he doeth all things For wyth their hands he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euerye where and wyth their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therfore least if they haue a common defence wyth the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer wyth hym in the cause then peraduenture they be aware of Truely it is against my will that I am constrained to make suche comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersity betweene the Popedome and the archbyshoppricke but because there being greate resemblance betweene them I meane hauing regarde to the bare functions wythout respecting the doctrine good or badde whych they vpholde that I say there being great resemblance betweene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betweene the parsons that execute them The whych good opinion conceyued of them I we moste humbly beseeche them by the glory of God by the libertye of
red more of him then you For I haue red ouer his boke of Martyrs and so I thinke did neuer you For if you had red so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue ben hasty to snatch at this place he would haue taught you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetch your authorities and would haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitanes bishops and other degrees whych you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times somtimes you can not tell whē were not in Higinus time which was a. 180. yeres after Christ I perceiue you fear M. Foxe is an ennemy vnto your archbyshop and primate therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupt hym wyth hys praise and to seeke to drawe hym if it were possible vnto the archbyshop and if not yet at the least that he would be no ennemy if he would not nor could not be his frend You make me suspect that your praise is not harty but pretended because you do so often so bitterly speake against all those that will not receiue the cap and surplice and other ceremonies wherof M. Fox declareth his great misliking For answer vnto the place because I remēber it not nor meane not to read ouer the whole boke to seeke it I say first as I said before that there may be some thing before or after which may geue the solution to this place especially seeing M. Foxe in another place prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfet he vseth thys reason because the fifthe Canon of the sayd Epistles solemnely entreateth of the difference betwene primates metropolitanes and archbyshops whych distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauor more of ambition thē persecution Moreouer I say that M. Foxe wryting a story doth take greater paine and loketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whom then how iustly or vniustly how conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sincerity of the gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whych hath trauailed so much and so profitably to that end will not haue hys authority or name therin to bring any preiudice Now wil I also wyne with you and leaue it to the iudgement of the indifferent reader how well out of the scriptures councels wryters old and new you haue proued either the lawfulnes at all of the names of archbishops patriarches archdeacons primates or of the lawfulnes of the office of them and of byshops whych be in our times And for as much as I haue purposed to answer in one place that which is scattered in diuers I will heere answere halfe a shete of paper whych is annexed of late vnto thys boke put forthe in the name and vnder the credite of the B. of Salisbury Wherin I wil say nothyng of those byting sharpe words which are giuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth archbyshops and archdeacons nouices partly in the end when he calleth them children and the doctrine of the gospell wantonnes c. If he had liued for hys learning and grauitye and otherwyse good desertes of the church in defending the cause therof agaynst the papistes we coulde haue easely borne it at hys handes nowe he is deade and layde vp in peace it were agaynste all humanitye to dygge or to breake vp hys graue only I wil leaue it to the consideration of the reader vpon those things whych are alledged to iudge whether it be any wantonnes or noueltye whych is confirmed by so graue testimonyes of the auncient worde of god Vnto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alledged he answeareth cleane contrary to that whych M. Doctor sayth that we haue nowe neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor Prophets wherevppon he wold conclude that that place is no perfect paterne of the ministery in the church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it nedefull that wee should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a time so that the wante of those nowe is no cause whye the minysteries there recited be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church nor cause whye anye other minysteries should be added besydes those whych are there recyted Afterward he saith that neither byshop nor elder are reckned in that place The pastor is there reckened vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and byshop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifye one thyng And as for those elders whych doe only gouerne they are made mention of in other places the apostles purpose being to recken vp here only those minysteries whych are conuersant in the worde as I haue before alledged and therefore the byshop and elder whych wyth gouernment teache also are there contained After that he sayeth there is no catechista if there be a pastor or as some thynke Doctor there is one whych bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther doth it pertayne to any other in the churche and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion then vnto eyther the pastor or doctor how so euer in some times and places they haue made a seuerall office of it And where he sayth that there is neyther deacon nor reader mentioned for the deacon I haue answeared that s Paul speaketh there only of those functiōs whych are occupyed both in teachyng and gouernyng the churches and therfore there was no place there to speake of a deacon and as for the reader it is no such office in the churche whych the minister may not doe And if eyther he haue not leysure or his strength and voyce wil not serue hym first to read some long time and afterwarde to preache it is an easye matter to appoynt some of the elders or deacons or some other graue man in the church to that purpose as it hathe bene practised in the churches in times past and is in the churches reformed in oure dayes without making any new order or office of the ministery Where he sayth that by thys reason we should haue no churches pulpits schooles nor vniuersities it is first easely answeared that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all things necessary for the churche but only of all necessary ecclesiasticall functions whych do both teach gouerne in the church and then I haue already shewed that there were both churches and pulpits As for scholes and vniuersities it is sufficient commaundement of them in that it is commaunded that bothe the magistrates and pastors should be learned for he that commaundeth that they shoulde be learned commaundeth those things and those meanes wherby they may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Testament As in the boke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the vniuersity men and those
it were not that M. doctor in asking these questions dothe also answer them and answeareth them farre otherwyse then the truthe doeth suffer I would not be drawne from the causes whych we haue in hand by these roging questions nowe I can not leaue them vnansweared because I see that mayster Doctor dothe make of the holy Sacrament of baptisme whych is an entry into the house of God and whereby only the family of God must enter a common passage wherby he will haue cleane and vncleane holy and prophane as well those that are wythout the couenaunt as those that be wythin it to passe by and so maketh the church no housholde but an Iune to receyue whosoeuer commeth I will answere therfore almost in as many words as the questions be asked If one of the parents be neyther drunkarde nor adulterer the chylde is holy by vertue of the couenaunt for one of the parents sakes If they be bothe and yet not obstinate in their synne whereby the church hathe not proceeded to Excommunication them selues being yet of the church their chylde can not nor ought not to be refused To the second question wherein he asketh what if the childe be of Papistes or Heretikes If bothe be Papistes or condenmed heretikes if so be I may distinguishe papistes from heretikes and cutte of from the church then their children can not be receyued because they are not in the couenaunt if eyther of them be faithfull I haue answeared before that they ought to be receyued To the other question wherin he asketh what if they erre in some poynts of matters of faithe If it be but an error and be not in those poynts whych case the foundations of fayth because they still notwythstandyng their error are to be counted amongst the faythfull their children pertaine vnto the promise and therfore to the sacrament of the promise And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the parentes of the chylde bee vnknowne If they be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promise of seeing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so muche as it is founde in a place where the church is and therefore by lykelyhoode to appertayne vnto some that was of the church I thinke it may be baptysed if the church thinke it good in thys last case Then hee goeth forth in the. 111. page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckned may be baptysed and demaundeth whether a wicked father may haue a good child a papist or heretike father a beleuing child yes verely may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet theyr children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doe first appeare by confession But you say the papist and hereticke be baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme they being cut of from the church maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismael and Esau which albeit they were circumcysed yet being cast out of the church they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the church Now you see the poyson as you terme it which lyeth hyd vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the rest of the section there is nothing but that which he spake of before only the eldershyp is named which commeth to be entreated of in the next section The reply vnto the three next sections concerning the senyors beginning in the latter end of the. 112. page and holding on vntill the beginning of the. 118. page AS though M. Doctor were at vtter defiance with all good order Methode of wryting that which was geuen hym orderly by the Admonition he hath turned vpsyde downe For where the Admonition speaketh first of the elders then of that which is annexed vnto them which is the dyscipline whereof excommunication is a part consydering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it M. Doctor hath turned it cleane contrary and first speaketh of excommunication and then of the elders I will therefore that the reader may the easelyer vnderstand that which is sayde follow the order of the Admonition and first of all speake of the elders or senyors which ought to be in the church And in speaking of them I must call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before that is Of those which haue care and which gouerne the whole congregation some there be which do both teache the word and gouerne also some which doe not teach but only gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment vnto those which doe teache Thys dyuision is most manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe where he sayeth the elders which rule well are worthy of double honor and especially those which labor in the word and doctryne where he maketh by playne and expresse words two sorts of elders the one which doth both gouerne and teach the other which gouerneth only These therefore are the senyors which are meant whose office is in helping the pastor or byshop in the gouernement of that particulare church where they be placed pastors and elders Now that it is knowne what these senyors be in entreating of them I am content to answere M. Doctor three requestes which he maketh in the. 125. page where he desireth that one would do so much for hym as first to shew that these senyors were in euery congregation secondarely he will haue it proued that thys regiment is perpetual and not to be altered last of all he desireth to know whether these senyors were lay men and not rather mynisters of the word and byshops Thys last is a fond request and suche as is alredy answeared but he must be followed For the first therefore which is that there were segnyors in euery congregation although M. Doctor in the 114. page and in the. 132. page constrayned by Ambose authoritie confesseth it in playne wordes yet because he requireth it to be shewed and maketh a iest at those places which are alledged out of the scripture to proue it some thing muste be spoken thereof The first place is in the Actes whych is that Paule Barnabas dyd appoynte by election elders in euerie congregation but it is not lyke they dyd appoynt dyuers ministers or bishops which preached in euery congregation which were not to be had for suche a number of congregations as were then to bee preached vnto therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached other elders which dyd only in gouernment assist the pastors which preached And what should we follow comectures heere when S. Paule doth in the place before alledged declare what these elders are But M. Doctor sayeth that there is no mention made of the office of such an elder therefore that place maketh nothing to proue that there shoulde be such elders in euery congregation
be seruauntes vnto the church and as they rule in the churche so they must remember to subiect them selues vnto the churche to submit their scepters to throw downe their crownes before the church yea as the Prophet speaketh to licke the dust of the feete of the churche Wherein I meane not that the churche doth eyther wring the scepters out of Princes hands or taketh their crownes from their heads or that it requireth Princes to licke the dust of her feete as the Pope vnder thys pretence hath done but I meane as the Prophet meaneth that whatsoeuer magnificence or excellencye or pompe is eyther in them or in their estates and common wealthes whych doth not agree wyth the simplicity and in the iudgement of the world poore and contemptible estate of the church that that they will be content to lay downe And heere commeth to my minde that wherwyth the world is now deceyued and wherwyth M. doctor goeth about bothe to deceiue him selfe and others to in that he thinketh that the church must be framed according to the common wealth and the church gouernment accordyng to the ciuill gouernment whych is as much to say as if a man shuld fashion hys house according to hys hāgings when as in deede it is cleane contrary that as the hangings are made fit for the house so the common wealth must be made to agree wyth the church and the gouernment therof wyth her gouernmēt For as the house is before the hangings therefore the hangings whych come after must be framed to the house whych was before so the church being before there was any common wealthe and the common wealthe comming after muste be fashioned and made sutable vnto the church Otherwyse God is made to geue place to men heauen to earth and religion is made as it were a rule of Lesbia to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer Seing that good men that is to say the church are as it were the foundation of the worlde it is meete that the common wealthe whych is builded vppon that foundation should be framed according to the churche therfore those voyces ought not to be heard thys order will not agree wyth oure common wealth that lawe of God is not for our state thys forme of gouernment will not matche wyth the pollicy of thys realme Nowe to come againe to M. Doctors reasons he sayeth in the. 133. page that if they vrge gouernoures because they are spoken of in the. 12. to the Corin. then they may as well vrge the power to worke miracles the gift of healing c. for that they are likewyse reckened vp in the same place But dothe not M. doctor know that although some thyngs be extraordinarye and for a time yet other some thyngs are ordinary and to endure alwayes Will he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarye therefore the teachers whych are there reckened together wyth the gift of working miracles and of healing are extraordinary hath he forgotten that he in deede vntruely made before the office of Apostles and Prophets and Euangelists a perpetual office and yet they are there ioyned wyth these gifts whych were but for a time and therfore it is a very absurde argument to saye that for that some thyng reckened with gouernors is for a time and extraordinary therfore the gouernors be so As for Musculus authoritye whych is that the tymes do chaunge the orders besides that I haue answeared before and besides that he dothe not speake it of the Elders I haue proued that it can haue no place heere for so much as the Elders are necessarye and commaunded in the scripture Vnto the authors of the Admonition saying that it is easier to ouerthrowe by bryving one man then the fayth and piety of a godly company he answeareth that so it should come to passe that the moe that ruled the better estate it shoulde be and so the populare estate should be the best But where do the authors of the admonition say that the more that rule the better it is is it all one to saye that the gouernment of a fewe of the best is better then the gouernment of one and to saye the more that rule the better If it were to the purpose it myghte be shewed both by Diuinitye and by Philosophye whych M. Doctor speaketh of that that estate whych he meaneth is not the best and I haue in a word before spoken of it where I declared that the mixed estate is best bothe by the example of the kingdome of Christ and also of thys our realme It is sufficient nowe to admonyshe you that although it be graunted that the gouernment of one be the best in the common wealth yet it can not be in the church For the Prince may wel be Monarche immediately betwene God the common wealth but no man can be Monarche betwene God hys church but Christ whych is the only head therof Therfore the Monarchie ouer the whole church and ouer euery particulare church and ouer euery singular membre in the church is in Chryst alone Last of all to proue that there ought to be no senyors in the church vnder a Christian prince he citeth Ambroses authority both in the. 114. and. 132. pages whych sayeth that the sinagogue or church of the Iewes after that the church of the chrystians had senyors wythout whose counsell nothyng was done in the church whervpon he concludeth that for as much as they were not in Ambrose tyme therfore they were not vnder a christian prince And heere M. doctor hath in one sentence proclaimed bothe hys great ignorance in the whole storye of the churche and wythall eyther a maruellous abusion and suffering hym selfe to be misled by some vnaduysed prompter or subtile foxe that thought to deceyne him or else a notable euill conscience whych wrastleth agaynst the truthe Hys ignorance doth appeare partly in that he sayeth that because there were no senyors in Amb. church and in those churches about hym therefore there was none at all but moste manifestly in that he sayeth for so much as there were no senyors in Amb. time therefore there was none vnder a christian Prince as though there were not many yeres before Amb. tyme christian Emperors when as betwene the tyme of S. Ambrose being byshop and the tyme of Phillip successor of Gordias the first christian Emperor there is more then a. 150. yeares and betweene the time of Constantine the Emperor and the tyme of Ambrose being byshop there be aboue 80. yeares And if M. Doctor had euer red the ecclesiasticall storyes he mought haue founde easely the eldershyp moste flourishyng in Constantines tyme and other tymes when as the peace of the chrystians was greatest And that the presbyterie or eldershyp endured in the church after Ambrose tyme and in the tyme of peace and as it is very lyke in Amb. tyme although not where he was it may be shewed