remedy but that we must needs grant all this to be true he taketh occasion to triumph and to frame a bitter inuectiue against our Religion and liues so concluding his wordy preface with an exhortation to his Reader to forsake vs our Religiō to ioine againe with thē in theirs All which because it is nothing but the vaine malitious wordes of a foolish aduersary without proofe or shadowe of proofe which therefore I am sure the wise Reader will make no reckoning of I might very well let passe with this onely answere that whatsoeuer he hath here said braggingly either in the commendation of his Religion Church or to the disgrace of ours is vtterly false and that I haue plentifully proued it so to be in sundry places of this my answere Howbeit seing this is not only his brag but the brag also a nūber of times of Iohn de Albine in the booke following indeed is in effect the only thing by taking whereof granted most subtily they all their fellowes seeke to beguile their simple readers it shal not be amisse because here first we meete with it least otherwise the Reader should be too ready to suffer his hart to be sorestald with this false principle to the preiudice of the truth somewhat to say to make both the vanity falshood hereof to appeare to euery one First therefore it is worthy the marking that the mā though as hee plainly sheweth hee had here a full purpose at least in wordes to giue as great countenaunce as he could to his cause that yet he seekes to giue it credit but by the testimonie of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time in the meane time omitting that which is to be preferd before all these namely the testimony of the vndoubted word of God reuealed set downe in the scriptures wherein he hath dealt but as the nature of his cause requires which hath no countenance from thence and as the fashion of other of his companiōs in this case is For hereupō it is that there is nothing more cōmon in their discourses then to labour by all meanes they can the disgrace of the written word of god and to establish the credite of a word vnwritten which they count to be the traditions or ordinary practise of the Church of Rome To this ende they bestowe so much paines as they doe at least to make shewe of proofe that the scriptures are so darke and obscure so insufficiēt for the direction of the Church in all matters and of so vveake authority of themselues without the authority and testimonie of the Church to countenance them that without the foresaid vnwritten word no man could either fully or certainly be setled and established in the truth So that herein this is their drift that they indeed being without all sounde warrant out of the canonicall scriptures for those thinges which wee count erroneous in thē they yet may make their followers beleeue that they haue as good ground as need be for them in that they can proue thē by the tradition of the Church which they call the word of god vnwritten and which they hold to be not onely aequal vnto the other that is written but also far more full and certaine for the determining the trueth of all controuersies And therefore Soto contra Brentium Canisius cap. 5. of his Catechisme and Lindan lib. 5. cap. 10. of his panoplie are not ashamed to confesse reckening almost all the pointes in controuersie betwixt them and vs that they haue their ground and warrant from tradition not written in the scriptures And hereupon it is that there is nothing more common with any of them then when wee presse them with this that the opinions for the which we striue with them haue no warrāt in the scripture yea that the scriptures rightly vnderstoode are flatte against them therein to flye to tradition which is the cause that this fellowe him selfe was so busie before to abuse Irenaeus for the countenance of that onely foundation of their Religion For this cause we may doe say of them that iustly by their owne confessiō as Tertullian saide of the hereticks in his time they cannot stand if they be driuen once to determine al their controuersies by the scriptures de Resurrectione Carnis cap. 3. Now as for vs Christian reader for all this lewde bragge of his we appeale to these scriptures of god and onely wee allowe of them as of a most perfect touchstone whereby to trye in all matters of Religion the pure golde from the counterfait crauing no further liking nor allowance in any thing then by them wee are able soundly to proue and confirme that which we say and teach And the ancient holy fathers and so the Christian regions in al ancient prescription of time which are the things that he here brags of as it appeares in all sound monuments of antiquity euer since these scriptures were written for the determining of controuersies in their times haue alwaies taken this course to cōfute confound all aduersaries to the truth As for their owne authority or the authority of any other before them no further credit they craue then as they are foūd to agree with these scriptures otherwise the more that haue couseted the lōger they held the worse This I haue made manifest by plētifull testimony of the ancient fathers thēselues cap. 3.5.23 And therfore whiles he sends vs thus to the fathers Christian regions consent prescription of time he sēds vs but about the bush for when we come to thē they will send vs backe againe to the scriptures But whiles they take this course in seeking rather countenance for their cause any where else then at or by the canonicall scriptures in the iust iudgement of god they plainly bewray themselues to euery simple mā to haue but a bad cause that they so shun the light and refuse the most certaine most indifferent triall of it which questionles is by these scriptures whose neither authority nor indifferecy without blasphemy may once be called in question Indeed I read that whē they were pressed with the authority of these scriptures the Marcionites pretēded for the defence of their heresy their paraclet or cōforters visiōs instructiōs that likewise the Mōtanists did fly to their prophecy the Valētinians to their dreams of their Aeons the Manichees to their fundamētal Epistle the Iewes to their Talmud the Turks to their Alcaron belike lest these should be foūd vnlike these their predecessors they will thus fly from the vndoubted authority of god speaking in the scriptures to the vncertaine and variable authority of man Yet if this were true that he saith that they haue the auncient holy fathers the common consent of all Christian regions pre scriptiō of time of their side it were sōewhat some likelihood it were that things were with thē as he saith I must needs cōfesse
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
disgrace Canus may tearme them a dead iudge which can neither heare nor speake in his Chapter booke before named in like sorte others in the following of this comparison with your good allowance shall may call them incken diuinity what else they list as we ofteÌ„ haue shewed you and them the onely rest vpon them scripture men or men whose Religion and diuinity lieth in rags skins of beasts because of such things the bookes are made wherein they are conteined Many beastly blasphemous speeches and assertions thus tending to the disgrace of the Canonicall scriptures any man that list may finde LyndaÌ„s three first bookes of his panoply Hosius booke de expresso Dei verbo his triple dialogue Cusans 2. Epist ad Bohemos 7. Andradius Florebellê° Priereas almost all your famous writers of these later daies euery where full oft where they haue any occasion to weaken those arguments that we vse against you either for that you are in your positions wherein we dissent froÌ„ you without warrant of scripture or that they are contrary to scripture And wheÌ„ we vrge you that of what credit soeuer the tradition of the church be that you so pleade for yet if it be the word of God aswel as the scripture then it must needes be that it agreeth with the scripture is not contrary vnto it for as much as God is alwaies one selfesame and therfore alwaies agreeing with himselfe therefore presse you with that which by the wordes circuÌ„stances of the text of the scripture we are sure is the true sence thereof therfore the vndoubted word of God theÌ„ you euen the greatest of you are driueÌ„ to these poore base shifts to cry out with Cardinal Hosius in his 4. booke against BreÌ„tius in his booke de expresso Dei verbo before named that scripture as it is alleaged of Catholiques it is the word of God but as it is alleadged of heretiques the expresse word of the Deuill or as he saieth also in the later booke if any haue the expositioÌ„ of the RomaÌ„ church of any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whither how it agreeth with the words of the scripture yet he hath the very word of God And when all comes to all though sometime you would make the pore simple people beleeue that in expounding the scriptures you will follow the vniforme consent of holy fathers and councels yet both this Cardinall Hosius in his triple dialogue and Cardinal Cusan in his 2. Epist ad Bohemos tell vs teach vs plainely to vnderstaÌ„d you that you meane no other sence theÌ„ agreeth with the present practise of the RomaÌ„ church when thaâ— sence is giueÌ„ not once blushing to confesse that according to the variablenes of the fashioÌ„ and practise of that church the scriptures must be vnderstood and therefore Cusan coÌ„mends that obedience that is yeelded thereunto simply without reasoning as the Oxe or Asse obeys his master For whatsoeuer sometimes you talke of Popes not erring of the not erring of generall couÌ„cels or of the authority of the fathers none that haue any thing craueiled in tracing you into your starting holes wheÌ„ otherwise you see you must needs be pinched takeÌ„ to your shaÌ„e but he easily seeth that in trueth none of these no nor all these togither with the scriptures themselues are of any credit and authority with you against the present practise of your RomaÌ„ Church One father or the present Pope if he speake hold with that though all the fathers beside are of another minde thogh neuer so many of his predecessors held otherwise yet farewell they in this case you will and must preferre this one before all the other These things being most true notoriously knowen to all men that with any indifferency haue traueiled in the controuersies betwixt you vs euery one hath cause to see howsoeuer somtimes you would seeme to yeeld some thing to the authority of the scriptures that you are at a flat point that neither they nor any authority els of maÌ„ or men old or new shall or may retaine any sence of force against the present practise and receaued opinioÌ„ of your sinagogue And as loÌ„g as you are at this point whatsoeuer you haue said of heretiques abusing of scripture as though you were the only men that had care rightly to vse them vnderstaÌ„d them euery simple body may see that of all men you are they by the variablenes of your Romish church practise which are most likely to make a nose of waxe and leaden rule both of the letter of the scriptures and sence thereof And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirme that to draw the scriptures by violeÌ„ce into a wroÌ„g sence is the maner of interpreting the scriptures called at this day the pure word by those that haue professed as long as they liue to be enemies to the trueth most fitly may be vnderstoode of your selues for you are so in loue with the present practise fashion and opinion of your RomaÌ„ church that though that vary neuer so often euen so ofteÌ„ must the scriptures will they nill they vary and alter their sense Howbeit I am not ignoraÌ„t but that in so writing you meant vs though I am sure you shall neuer be able to proue vs either to haue professed at all any enmity with the truth or so to vse to wrest the scriptures But because this is a matter of great importaÌ„ce and therfore such as caÌ„not be determined either by your yea or our nay it shal not be amisse vpoÌ„ this occasioÌ„ to coÌ„sider what souÌ„d rules of interpreting there be that by the same it may be tried whither your interpreting of the scriptures or ours deserue thus to be called a drawing of the scriptures by violence to a corrupt sence The vniforme consent of doctors you would ofteÌ„ seeme as I haue saied in this case to make reckoning of as of a souÌ„d and Apostolicke rule of interpreting them by but this is but for a fashioÌ„ for you haue giuen vs doe daily manifest proofes that wheÌ„ but one or two against all the rest of theÌ„ hold with your curraÌ„t and present practise of your Roman church that now is that that one or two of them ouer wey with you al the rest And besides if this were a necessary rule then none could be interpreters of the scriptures but those that had all or the most part of the doctours to peruse few or none then ancient doctors writers there haue beene so many their names are so vnknowen to most could be sure when they had the consent of the most and best on their side and so neuer should be sure of the sence and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes haue they writen Though therefore we will not shunne the trial of our interpretations with you by this rule yet we account
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
nisi mittantur Howe shall they preach except they bee sent as â—t is written in the tenth to the Romanes and sent by them which haue authoritie to sende Did not Saint Paul for that purpose leaue Titus in Creete Did hee not also giue Timothie charge to laye handes too quickely on no man To these that bee thus lawefullie ordeyned and called to haue cure and charge of soules yee are bounde to giue an eare by these yee must bee ruled in matters of Religion and as obedient children to their spirituall fathers And this biddeth Saint Hierome writing to Nepotian o True and necessarie as long as the pastour is such as Paul wilde Titus to ordeine but this helpeth yours little Esto subiectus pontifici tuo quasi animae parentem suspice Bee subiect to thy Bishop and reuerence him as thy soules father The same lesson teacheth Chrysostome in an Homylie De recipiendo Seueriano where hee beginneth thus Sicuti capiti corpus cohaerere necessarium est ita ecclesiam sacerdoti principi populum As it is of necessitie that the bodie cleaue to the heade so it is likewise of necessitie that the congregation cleaue to their Priest and spirituall ruler and the people to their Prince And within a fewe wordes after hee alleadgeth for the confirmation of this matter the Apostle writing thus to the Hebrewes in the thirteenth Chapter p This rule is not general without exception For Christ hath saide take heede of false Prophets c. Obedite praepositis vestris obtemperate eis quia ipsi peruigilant pro vobis quasi pro animabus vestris rationem reddituri Obey them that haue the ouersight of you and doe as they woulde haue you for they watch for your sakes as they which shall giue accomptes for your soules This obedience doeth our Sauiour require of all men saying Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee This obedience to Christes Church hath continued thoroughout all Christendome time out of minde And if the authoritie of the learned and holie fathers ought to beare sway and preuaile as of right it ought to doe indeede Arrogantium enim hominum est maiorum suorum authoritatem aspernari se illis ingenio vel sapientia anteponere For it is the manner and property of proud arrogant persons to contemne the authority of their elders to prefer themselues before theÌ„ in wit or learning If the consent of all christian Regions should be regarded probâ—bilia saieth Aristotle in the first Chapter of the first booke of his Topickes quae videntur omnibus vel plurimis Those things are probable which all men or at the least the most part doe iudge to be so If the long continuance of time must be of importance In his enim as witnesseth S. Hilarie vpon the hundred and eighteene psalme tanquà m in coelo verbum dei permanet in quibus hoc verbum non offenditur In them doth the word of God abide among whom that worde is not offended a This is but a vaine brag that you haue these three as shall appeare I hope sufficieÌ„tly in the answer to Albines treatise For you haue not one of them in such sort as that thereupon you may conclude as you doe If these three I saie The authority of the learned Fathers The common consent of Christian Regions The long continuance of time may be a sufficient testimonie for the verity we haue the true Gospell the true sence of it b These are but shamelesse beggings of the things in question and onely your bare and therefore vaine words for none of them you shal euer proue true Our Religion is the very Christian Religion The order of Ceremonies that the Catholike Church doth vse is the right order Our fasting and praying is according to the Scriptures Our Church is the true and lawfull spouse of Christ from the which as many as seperate them selues they are no sheepe of Christes folde they are reprobate persons they are the children of Belial they are impes of hell c What then is the president of our next last fathers yea though for some hundred or more yeares such as we may not vary from The vanity of this argument see cap. 38. of my answere You knowe what order your fathers kept howe they liued and howe they beleeued You are not ignorant how you haue beene brought vp instructed and trâ—â—ned in the lawes of Christ Whosoeuer goeth about to infringe or breake any part of that d You must proue the order godly and laudable or else your assertion is false godly order of that auncient custome and laudable vsage he is an hereticke an enemy to God a murtherer to mans soule a disturber of the common wealth a subuerter of all honest discipline and therefore most vnworthy to liue among men I e This complaint hath most iust apparant ground especially amongst men of your owne faction though it cannot be denied but that euery where there is so lamentable cause thereof but yet this preiudiceth our religion which condemnes all imoiety no more then you would haue it to doe yours haue heard read and seene many things yet can I not reade beare or see any world more contaminate and prone to al kinde of vices then this our age is And howbeit afore our daies there haue beene in all times and ages men and women very vitious and monstrous in their liuing yet then vertue was vertue and vice was vice But now in our corrupt time wee haue lost the true names and vse of all things and vertue with vs is taken for vice and contrarily vice is counted for vertue They that bee studious of modesty obseruers of temperancie and louers of sobrietie they be now a daies called Pinch-pennies and such that hunger droppeth out of their noses f This is false amongst vs if by catholique you vnderstande as you should sounde and true religion If any be vertuous followers of the Catholike which is the true Religion they be called Pharisies papists The discreete man he is called an hypocrite and the small talker a foole and an ignorant person On the other side they that leade their liues in all kinde of riote they be called handsome men men of the right making and such as can tel how to keepe honest mens companie Againe the statelier that one goeth the â—igher that he looketh and the stouter and malapertlier that he speaketh be more is he praised among the worldlings for a wise man who will not â—uffer himselfe to be ouertroden and made a laughing stocke to euery rasâ—all With such vaine glorious praises be such proude Thrasoes extolled â—nd magnified of the more part and no small number are giuen to flatâ—erie and enhausing of Clawbackes that neuer could that saying of Teâ—ence be better verified then it is now Obse quium amicos veritas oâ—odium parit To holde vp mens yea and their naye in holding with
quickelie forsake your popery and ioyne with vs. to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours standing to that that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught not to turne at euery blast Vpon this matter one * Lib. con haer Vincentius Lyrinēsis who florished aboue a thousand yeares agone he saith thus If anie mā perchāce demaund saying Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine b Yea and more then sufficient saieth he Marke he graunts the rules of the scripture to be sufficient how is then that true which your Andradius saieth the greatest part is left to tradition not writen sufficient of thēselues And what neede haue we thē of the authority of the Church He answereth For that saieth he that the secrets misteries of the holy Scriptures are such that euery mā doeth not vnderstand thē interprete thē after one sort but that of one place this mā that mā shal seeme to maintaine their opinions being cleane cōtrary one to another so that looke how many mē so many interpretations For one way it is interpreted by Nestorius another way by Arrius another way by Sabellius so forth according to diuers heresies that haue risen from time to time And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the trueth among so many errours to draw the c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule vnderstanding as he doth that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that sence which hath the consent of the Prophets Apostles and Catholique Church for no other sence we giue of the Scriptures right line of the Propheticall Apostolical interpretatiō according to the rule true sense of the Catholicke Church This is the learned opinion of this anciēt father Vincētius Lyrinensis The III. Chapter IN the 3 Chapter you say as little to the purpose as in the second For vnderstanding by the Church the true catholique Church indeede and not your late Synagogue of Rome falsely by you so named because neither it nor the faith thereof is vniuersall neither in respect of time nor person whatsoeuer you haue writen therein we confesse to be most true and sure we are it maketh more for vs then for you For we neuer denied the ministry of the true Church to be needefull according to Vincētius rule to finde out the true sence of the scriptures and certaine we are that we are farre better able to iustifie our interpretations thereby then you are yours and he liuing a 1000. years agoe as you write we boldely affirme that you shall neuer bee able to proue that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and pastours before or in his time taught the errours and heresies now taught by yours for the which wee account yours Antichristian And yet as in the former Chapter most beggerly you begged this principle that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith so here in this you begge this also that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church But you must vnderstand howsoeuer your owne frendes will giue you at your first asking both these that yet we will graunt you neither of them both And therefore writing as you would seeme purposely against vs you should not thus miserably alwaies haue begged them at our handes but by sound and iust proofe at least haue endeuoured to proue that you had iust right thereunto and then with some more honestie and credit might you haue gone on in this supposall that they are yours This also you must vnderstand that when it is in question which is the trueth of Religion yea euen in the fundamentall points as indeede it is betwixt you and vs it is alwaies also in question which is the Church of Christ For as both parts imagine they haue the trueth so will they perswade themselues that they are the true Church Your frendes also and all others must bee aduertised that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church of the doctours thereof least through too much simplicity they think streight that you haue al these things on your side because you haue them so much and so often in your mouthes For as Cyprian writeth Epist ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis the Nouations after the fashion of apes challenged vnto themselues the name of the Church and all other they called heretiques And we reade that in the time of Arius Macedonius and Donatus these heretiques accounted themselues the onely Christians and that the true Christians indeede were counted by them Homousians Macarians Caesarians and Caecilianists So doeth Tertullian de Prescrip aduersus haereticos testify that the heretiques did in his time So did the Donatists saieth August Contra Epist Parm lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist 161. and he writeth Cōtra Epist Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees there was great brags of the trueth Bernard also in his 66. sermon vpon the Cāticles speaking against certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage and superstitiously absteined from meates yet saieth that they gloried that they alone were the body of Christ bragging also that they were the successours of the Apostles and Apostolicke the Church of Christ And indeede wee finde nothing more vsuall with the ancient hereticks then to boast that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their sides And very vsuall we finde it also with them to stand much vpon fathers in the defence of themselues and their heresies For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action that Eutiches bragged that he had reade Cyprian and Athanasius yea that then and there he confidently saied for his defence that he had so learned of his ancient predecessours and that he had beene baptized in that faith had liued and hoped to die in it And we reade in the 4. Action of the same councell that Carosus an Eutichian heretique saied stoutly I beleeue thus according to the exposition of the 318. fathers and so was I baptised Dioscorus also in the 1. Act of that Councell cried and saied I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyrill on my side I go not from them in anie thing I am cast out with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrines I haue their testimonies euen set downe in their bookes for me And as we reade in August contra Cresconium the Donatist 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17. he cited for himselfe Cyprian and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretique against whom August wrote vsed to alleadge for his defence the councell of Ariminum and therefore Augustine saieth vnto him Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice against thee neither oughtest thou to obiect that of Ariminum against me 3. booke 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it these things considered for you and your fellowes then to carie away the simple vnder the bare titles of Catholique trueth Catholique Church
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
haÌ„ging in S. Markâ— church at Venice sheweth that Pope AlexaÌ„der the 3. himselfe treading vpon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. caused thâ—se words of the Psalm Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the Adder tread the Cockatrise vnder thy feete which are properly to be vnderstoâ—â— of Christ to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his whereby appeareth that the Pope himselfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers That of Paul by him vnderstood of those that follow the directioÌ„ of the old maÌ„ and are led in their doings by the flesh They that are in the flesh caÌ„not please God Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope also interpreteth of theÌ„ that liue in the estate of mariage A Bishop must be the husbaÌ„d of one wife saieth Paul 1. Tim. 3. that is by their interpretatioÌ„ of one benefice and so his house and children that he must well order and gouerne there also spokeÌ„ of be his parish and parishioners Who so would vouchsafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell he should there finde store of such interpretatioÌ„s for the maintenaÌ„ce of images so ridiculously alleadged as euer were any And how is it possible that the Church of Rome holding those principles that she doeth but that you must needes be as violent wresters and rackers of the Scriptures as euer were For both Cusan Epist 2.3.7 Hosius de expresso Dei verbo in his triple Dialogue doe teach that the scriptures must alwaies be interpreted according to the practise of the Church so that how oft soeuer that change the sence of the scripture must change also For still the sence thereof must be fitted to the time and in no case it may be thought to retaine a sence contrary to the practise of the Church And now you are fully come to this whatsoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures doctours or councels your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority to interprete all as one hauing authoritie so to doe for his owne sence So that in deede and trueth neither Scriptures doctours nor councels how plaine soeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church shall cary awaie any sence to ouerwharte you at all but will they nill they they shal be caused by your Pope to speake on your side And therefore these thinges considered you are the men and not wee that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king that you speake of in your twenty three Chapter and decke the image of a dogge or of a foxe therewith that is according to your owne application which take the wordes of the Scripture and by wresting of them make them serue to countenance your heresies For heresies wee holde none â—â—ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures but in his true sence 〈◊〉 by these rules before mentioned we are alwaies readie to proue â—nd therefore for all your saying to the contrarie the Scripture as it is alleadged by vs shall proue euen that word of God that shall iudge you and condemne you if you repent not the sence that you force vpon it shall proue but the deuise of man false doctrine yea your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde heresies For with the Ebionits you will not be iustified by faith onely Euseb lib. 3. ca. 24. but also by your owne workes inhereÌ„t righteousnes as the Catharists haue taught you Isidor Etymolog lib. 8. cap. de haeresibus Of the Manichees you haue learned your ministring in one kinde Leo serm 4. de Quadragesimâ Marcus that heretique who by his inuocatioÌ„s made his followers beleeue that in the Eucharist he turned the wine into bloud hath beene your first schoolemaster for your doctrine of traÌ„substantiation Epip haeres 34. And your multitude of images your worshipping of them the Carpocratians haue taught you as to appeares Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. 24. when you commit these idolatries you haue learned to excuse your selues to torment your selues and to light candels at noone daies of the ancient idolaters LactaÌ„tus lib. 2. cap. 2. lib. 1. cap. 21 6. cap. 2. As the Messalians restrained the force of baptisme to former sinnes witnesse Theodoret diuin decret cap. de baptismo so doe you As Montanus taught of purgatory oblations and praiers for the dead and limbus patrum Tertullian de coronâ militis euen so doe you As the Collyridians sacrificed vnto the Virgin Mary and worshipped her Epiphan haeres 79 so doe you As the Angelists and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels Epiphan haeres 38 so doe you As Montanus and the Manichees deuised lawes for superstitious fasting Euseb lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13 so doe you As the Tatians Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony crying out that it was a carnal life therefore forbad it to their elect and to them that would be perfect amongst them August Epist 47 likewise doe you And as the Pelagians denyed that to be sin which ariseth not from reason and wil August contra Iulianum lib. 3. cap. 5 so doe you for the very same reasons deny concupiscence of it selfe without consent thereunto to be sinne as there further it appears they ascribed to the natural powers strenght to doe spirituall things and affirmed that a man is to be saued for and by keeping the law so doe you Of the Valentâ—nians also you learned to haue in such price as you haue the signâ—â—f the Crosse and to abuse places of Scripture for it as God forbiâ— that I should reioice in any thing but in the Crosse of Christ Irenâ—us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 2. haeres 31. Of the Heracleoâ—nites you learned your extreame vnction and other ceremonies you vse to the dead Epiphan lib. 1. Tom. 3. haeres 36. Of the Macionites Pepusians Aug ad Quod. cap. 27 you learned to giue women leaue to baptise Epiphan haeres 42. Of the Hemerobaptistes and of the Ossenes you learned your holy water holie salte holie oile and holy bread Epiphan lib. 1 Tom. 1. cap. 17. 19. And of the same Ossenes you haue learned also your superstition about reliques and to pray in an vnknowen tongue as Elcai their great Pope taught them Epiphan haeres 19. Thus if a man in reading Augustine Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others that haue laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques would diligently marke what heresies and fonde things they held and vsed he should by and by by comparing their doings opinions with yours finde that you haue reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned heresies and that you haue learned most of your Ceremonies of them And yet as though you of all men were freest and furthest from all heresie still you crie out he retiques heretiques But it is but policy that you haue learned of some theeues who the better in an hew cry to escape ride crying out of theeues theeues But for all
and would haue quoted these not in his name but in Ambroses But yet then you took your mark amisse also For he hath no bookes neither that simply cary these titles Indeed he hath writen fiue de fide ad Gratianum and one de fide orthodoxâ contra Arrianos and a booke he hath writen de his qui initiantur mysteriis and fiue de sacramentis but in no seuenth nor eleuenth Chapters of any of his bookes de fide or symbolo hath he any thing to serue your turne Neuer man therefore was so abused as you Master Albine were I thinke in taking so few quotations of credit I would therefore henceforth aduise you vnlesse you be euen resolued vtterly to leese your credit trust no more thus either other mens eies or fingers Well Basil and Arnobius are yet behinde let vs see if you hit any rightlier of your places out of them you cite Basils 15 and 75 Chapters de Spiritu Sancto and Arnobius vpon the 27 Psalme Neither of which you haue rightly quoted For there are but 30 Chapters in al Basils booke de Spiritu Sancto as Erasmus hath translated him caused him to bee published and Arnobius vpon the twenty seuen Psalme hath not at all mentioned any ceremony about baptisme Basil in his fifteene and twenty seuen Chapters of that booke and Arnobius vpon the seuenty fiue Psalme make mention of abrenuntiation of some other ceremonies before mentioned by the other fathers but yet neither these nor all the other laied togither that you haue named either in the places mentioned by you nor any where else mention al the ceremonies which you vse by far though you would by your lowd bragging make your reader beleeue they doe Thus you see vnlesse you had beene disposed vtterly for euer to shame your selfe you could not in so few quotations especially not set on your margent but in your lines as they are the better to preuent wrong applying of them haue beene taken with thus many grosse ouersightes May not any man worthilie thinke you hereby iudge that howsoeuer the names of the fathers are familiar with you that yet you are a verie stranger in their workes indeed Of twenty places you haue alleadged aright and to the purpose scarse fiue and of seuen fathers belike because you would not deale partiallie with them your happe hath beene one waie or other to erre in quoting of euerie one of them Surelie you are worthie to bee trusted vpon your bare word without any further examination of your quotations an other time you haue dealt so faythfully and vprightlie in these And to conclude this point withall as though you had most rightly quoted and that they most pregnantlie had iustified all your Ceremonies as you vse them you confidently tell your reader that if hee will reade these places hee shall finde that they did vse the verie Ceremonies that you doe vse and wee so much myslike Thus yet you coulde set a good face on the matter though you could doe little else But in good earnest is it your meaning by these places to make mē before that none are to be accoūted rightly baptised vnles vnto him all these your ceremonies which you talke of be vsed What say you then to Christs baptisme and the multitudes baptised by Iohn in Iorden and after by the Apostles sometimes in one day in water that was next to hād Sure I am that none of your ceremonies that you striue for here so much which we mislike was vsed then to anie of them and yet I am sure neuer were any with these ceremonies of yours better baptized then these were Nay to presse you a litle further if these ceremonies were so necessarie as you pretend how chāceth it that aboue 600. yeares after Christ that is long after any of the fathers you haue named to countenance them withal we read in Bedaes story so often mētion as we do of so great multitudes here in England by famous Bishops baptised in one daie in common riuers It is vnpossible that they should baptise so many in so short time as that story shewes they did and yet vse to euery one all the solemnity of ceremonies that you here thus pleade for It is cleare thē by that practise that for all this and whatsoeuer else any where either these or any other doctour before that time had writen hereof that then there was no such danger imagined to bee in omitting of these as your Tridentine coūcell now would make men beleeue there is But for a general answere to al that you or any of your side haue or can alleadge out of any father either for the iustifying your kinde of vsing these your ceremonies or any of the other three points that follow in this Chapter as long as you are not able to warrant your doings and opiniōs therin by the scriptures which we are sure you shall neuer be able to doe by the fathers leaue though they were as pregnant for you as you pretend which they are not neither that by the direction and aduise of the best of themselues we will may chuse for all their writings whither we will like any whit the better of them or no. For Hierom saieth that all things which mē seeke out and inuent at their owne pleasure without authority and testimony of the scripture as though they were the traditions of the Apostles the sword of God cutteth of Vpon the first of Aggei And Origen in his first homily vpon Hierom confesseth that their iudgements without witnes of the scripture were of no credit And Hierom againe vpon the 98. Psalme writeth that all which they spake they were to proue by the scriptures and vpon the 23. of Mat. he saieth plainely that which hath not authority from the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And Chrysostome vpon the 2. to Tim. Hom. 9. saieth if there be any thing either to learne or to be ignorant of we shall learne it in the scriptures And as for all other authority Hilary saieth in his 7. booke of the trinity that it is short darke troublesome And as for Augustine he of all the rest hath most plainely taught vs this in his 19. Epistle to Hierom and also in his 111. epistle to Fortunatian where he plainely shewes that hee gaue no further credit to any mans writings then he found them agreeable to the scriptures and therefore de baptismo contra Donatistas li. 2. cap. 3. he refuseth to be pressed either with the authority of Cyprian or any other man or councell further then by the canonicall scriptures their iudgements are approued and he teacheth Paulina in his 112. epistle not to follow his authority or to beleeue a thing because he hath said it but to beleue the canonicall scripture We saie therefore with him lib. 1. cap. 22. de peccatorum meritis remissione let vs yeeld cōsent vnto the holy scriptures which can neither deceaue nor be deceaued
occasion serueth wee are farre before you how short soeuer wee come of you in allowing your auricular confession which is the onelie kinde of confession that you plead here for For looking first into the scriptures and then into the ancient fathers these are the onely kinds of so confessing agrees on by one consent of them needful to be practised First that euery one of Gods people shoulde by the due meditation dailie of his lawe so bring all his sinnes originall and actuall small and great publicke and secret to his remembrance that in trueth hee may saie with Dauid Psalme fiftie one in respect of them all in some good measure I knowe mine iniquities and my sinne is alway before mee that so with a contrite heart hope of Gods mercy and purpose of amendment hee maie confesse them vnto God both priuately and publickely generally and particulerly also vpon iust occasions we all with the Scriptures and fathers allow teach and practise For it is well knowen in respect of this kinde of confession of sins wee teach with Salomon prouerb the twenty eightth hee that hideth his sinnes hee shall not prosper but he that confesseth them and forsaketh them shall haue mercy And therefore beside our often confessing our sinnes vnto God against our selues in priuate in all our ordinary prayers either at home in our families or in publicke in our assemblies and congregations especially before the receiuing of the sacrament we make humble confession of all our sinnes and vnworthinesse generally vnto God Thus did Dauid Psalme thirty two and fifty one thus did Daniel Daniel the ninth and Ezra Ezra the ninth yea thus did the publican Luke the eighteenth they that were baptized of Iohn in Iordan Matthew the third and the beleeuers that we read of Actes the nineteenth vers eighteenth and nineteenth confesse their sinnes before God This we count a necessary fruit of repentance a good meanes to humble vs in the presence of God and a way to aduaunce both the iustice and mercy of our God And to this we knowe both the Scriptures and fathers all with one consent exhort vs but especiallie amongst the fathers Chrysostome is earnest to perswade this kinde of confession of sinnes to God aboue all other as it is to be seene in him vpon the fifty Psalme hom 2 vpon Matthew hom 3 vpon Genesis hom twenty and vpon the twelfth of the Hebrues hom the thirty one and else where often in his works As for particulerly confessing of our sinnes vnto God in the presence of the congregation as I sayed before also vpon iust and due occasion that is vrged taught and practised amongst vs. But then it is but when one falleth into some such notorious and great sinne publickely knowen to the offence of the Church for the which hee deserueth to bee excommunicated And this is either voluntarilie yeelded vnto and done by the partie that hath so offended to shew the better his repentance or it is by authoritie imposed vpon such for the terrour of others and satisfaction of the congregation offended And hereof in Scripture we haue example For Achans sinne that so troubled the congregation once being knowen and so publicke by Iosua hee is commaunded to giue glorie to God and so before Iosua and the people hee confesseth his sinne at the appointment of Iosua Iosua the seuenth it seemeth likewise that the incestuous Corinth did driuen thereunto by the authoritie and force of that censure that Paul and that Church layed vpon him 1. Corinthians 5. and 2. Epist second and seuenth Chapters And at the rebuke of Samuel the people particulerlie confessed their sinne in desiring a king 1. Samuel and twelfth and at the rebuke of Ezra we read also voluntarily they came that had contrary to the law of God maried strange wiues and publikely confessed their sinnes and amended that fault Ezra the tenth of such examples of particuler publicke confessing of notorious knowen faults the ecclesiasticall stories are full whereof some yeelded thereunto voluntarily who were alwaies best liked of and others by order of ecclesiastical censures were brought thereunto And for this kinde of publicke confessing of our sinnes to God also it cannot bee denied but herein wee are far beyond you in conforming our selues therein far more then you to the ancient presidenes thereof found both in Scripture and other antiquity Indeede I must needes confesse that I finde in the writings of the fathers especially in Cyprian sermone de lapsis in Tertullian de paenitentiâ and in Origen vpon the thirty seuen Psalme that they counted it a commendable thing and an argument of greater feare of God and loue if men would not onely thus confesse their notorious publickely knowen sins but also their secret notorious sinnes yea then very purposes onely to haue committed such sinnes But withall I finde that they saw such inconueniences to arise hereof that first they counselled such therein to be directed first by some godly discreet minister when they should so doe and when not and secondly are long they were driuen to thinke it needfull for the prouenting of some inconueniences onely to enioyne them some publicke punishment concealing the particularity of such their sinnes and thirdly I finde the by Leo his time this was thought to much also For he in his seuenty eight Epistle and as he is alleadged by Gratian de paenit Distinct 1. Cap. Quamuis sheweth his flat mislyke thereof determining it to bee farre better that the confession bee made onely to the minister But in the Greeke Church long before Leo his tyme as it appeareth in Zozomen libro 9. cap. 35. historiae tripart this publishing of sinnes by publicke confession or by enduring of some enioyned punishment publickely was giuen ouer and one appointed in Constantinople to heare the confessions of such as came vnto him which order also as it there appeareth was by Nectarius bishop there caused to be giuen ouer by occasion that a noble womaÌ„ confessed that she had lyen with a Deacon there in the Church whiles she was doing there the things y her coÌ„fessour had enioyned her So that to go on by these and other such places more in the fathers I finde that secret confession of sinnes to a minister indeede is ancient and also I must needs confesse I finde the fathers often exhorting-men so to confesse their sinnes but yet then good Christian reader thou must vnderstand that it was â—either vsed nor vrged but in certaine cases as when otherwise the party could not tell how to comfort himselfe vnder the burden of his sinne or to get out of the snares and fetters thereof It was neither taught nor vrged then as an ordinance of God to bee kept vnder paine of damnation as it is in the Church of Rome neither yet were they vrged to make such an exact enumeration of all their sinnes and the circumstances thereof as that Synagogue now teacheth For then durst not Nectarius as is aforesaied haue
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
nor scriptures giue it any credit or couÌ„tenaÌ„ce at al. For first whereas now they pray al in Latine a touÌ„g not vnderstood of most that heare vse their prayers it is a kinde of praying flatly condemned because it is without edification to such by Chrysostome Ambrose vpoÌ„ the 14. of the first to the Corinthians Augustine also de Genesi ad literaÌ„ li. 12. Cap. 8. ioines with them herein aduouching that no maÌ„ is edified by hearing that which he vnderstands not And the descriptions of al the auncient lyturgies in the Church shew that alwaies they were vsed in such a tongue as the people vnderstood aswell as the minister there is such mentioÌ„ of intercourse of speech one to the other as any man may see that perused the descriptions thereof yea writers both old new do plainely testify that the ancient long coÌ„tinued vse of the church hath bene to haue her publicke liturgy in the knowen vulgar tongue of the people For OrigeÌ„ coÌ„tra CelsuÌ„ lib. 8. writeth that the Grecians name God in greeke the Romans in the latin tongue and euery one in their natiue and mother tongue pray sing Psalmes vnto God And Hierom to Eustochuim describing the solemne funeral of Pacta elsewhere to Marcella testifieth that though to BethleeÌ„ there was coÌ„course of very many seueral nations yet euery one there praised god praied vnto him in their owne laÌ„guage Insomuch that eueÌ„ Lyra vpoÌ„ the 14 of the first to the Corinthians coÌ„fesses that in the primitiue church al was done in the vulgar tongue And no loÌ„ger ago then InnoceÌ„t the thirds time in the LateraÌ„ couÌ„cel held in his time 1215. c. 9. order is takeÌ„ that where in one cuntrey there be people of diuers laÌ„guages there the Bishops should prouide them ministers to celebrate theÌ„ diuine seruice to minister theÌ„ the sacraments according to the diuersities of their rites laÌ„guages Yet further that thou maist see Christian reader in this point that the maÌ„ blusheth at nothing vnderstaÌ„d that by the coÌ„fession of their own frend Eckius in his coÌ„moÌ„ places the South IndiaÌ„s haue their liturgy in their mother tongue by the coÌ„fessioÌ„ of another one SigismuÌ„d writing of the Moscovites that they likewise haue theirs And Petrus Bellonius writing of the Armonians testifies the like of theÌ„ yea Aeneas Siluius who after was a Pope in his history of the BohemiaÌ„s c. 13. plainly shewes that a Pope was admonished by a voice from heauen to graÌ„t Cyril that conuerted Russia Moralia to say diuine seruice amoÌ„gst theÌ„ in the Shlauon tongue which was their vulgar tongue How haue they theÌ„ as he bragges these things considered either the ancient holy fathers consent of al regions or such prescription of time as he preteÌ„ds for this maner of praying of theirs in a tongue not vnderstoode of most And who can read the 14 of the first to the Corinthians vnlesse he bee disposed wilfully to be blinde but he must needes there see that this maner of praying is directly there condemned Chrysostome Ambrose Haymo Lyra and so expositours both ancient and nevv take it howsoeuer our late Rhemists in their notes would faine vvrest the place from any such meaning And in this respect suppose othervvise their prayers vvere faultles who seeth not that they giue God occasion againe to renue his olde complaint Esay 29. This people drawe neare vnto mee with their lippes but their hart is farre from mee of most people vvhich through their tyranny onely pray thus But in this poynt onely there is not vanity and falshoode in his bragge for othervvise if vve consider vvell their maner of praying vve shall finde both grosse vntrueth in his speech and horrible faultes in their prayers For how can it bee true that consent of fathers and the rest that he bragges of doe countenaunce that set forme of church-seruice that now they are in possession of seing neither the ancient fathers nor yet one quarter of Christendome vvas euer acquainted with it There owne authours and namely Polydor de inuentoribus rerum lib. 5. cap. 10 doe shevv hovv it came in and vvas deuysed piece after piece In the one thousand tvvo hundred yeares after Christ it vvas not grovven eyther to that full forme or credit that it is at novv For the forme of masse novv vsed commonly called Saint Gregories masse with much adoe got to be first in these westerne partes receiued in Pope Adrians time 790 yeares after Christ witnes Durand Nauclere and Iacobus de voragine and yet euen then and long after Millayn continued the vse of a forme of liturgy receiued from Ambrose Benedict the 3 that succeeded next Ioan the harlot about the yeare 857 first inuented brought in the dirge as most authors write though Gregory the 3 had done soÌ„what about it before The first allowance of the sequences in the masse is attributed to Nicolas the first that succeeded this Benedict In Alexander the 2 time Alliluiah was first suspeÌ„ded out of the church in â—eÌ„t time which was aboue 1000 yeare after Christ Our ordinary here in England secundum vsum Sarum began 1076 yeares after Christ and that as our stories shew by occasion of a bloody quarel betwixt the Abbot of Glassenbury his monkes The 7 canonical houres came in first by Vrban the second in the yeare one thousand ninety But Gregory the ninth that monstrous enemy of Fredericke the second first brought in that blasphemous canticle Salue regina one thousaÌ„d two huÌ„dred yeare more after Christ And howsoeuer these patches in the ende grevve in these partes to bâ—â— sovved togither yet the other partes of the vvorld vnder the Cyprians time about the yeare 255. when Corneliu Bishop of Rome vnaduisedly coÌ„trary to the good policy of the church and after him Stephanus tooke vpon them so to admitte of fugitiues out of Africke at Rome that not only they receaued them into their communion but tooke vpon them to labour their restitution they being before for their iust demerits excommunicated and deposed in Africke Cyprian wrote vnto them both to Cornelius in his first booke of Epistles Epistle 3. and to Stephanus in his second booke and first Epistle wherein earnestly he reproueth them for so intermedling in his iurisdiction the iurisdictioÌ„ of other his collegues in Africke shewing theÌ„ that they ought not so to do for they in Africk had as ful Bishoply autority as they at Rome and therefore were both able and the fittest to heare and determine such cases as fell out amongst themselues But seeing for all this the Bishops of Rome still were too busy in meddling further then they should after this in the counsell of Nice cannon 6. their authority and the Patriarches of Alexandria are made equall about the yeare 320. And yet the better to stay and keepe the Bishops of Rome within their due limits after this in most counsels for 300. yeares after
Fredericke the second Emperours Philip the faire and Carolus Caluus of Fraunce Henry the first and second Richard the second and king Iohn of England with sundry other Emperours and kings did notably and openly resist them therein and that they had alvvaies many learned fathers and Bishops to take their partes But to leaue this matter and to go on to others because the author of this preface and brag that I novv am in aunswering in his brag maketh speciall mention as you haue heard of their order of ceremonies and manner of praying and fasting bosting that for these they haue the holy fathers the consent of all christian nations and prescription of long continuance yea for the tvvo last the very scriptures let vs first see if wee can finde out the originall and vvithall the iust reproofe and condemnation of these First for their ceremonies none that hath but redde Platina or any other story of the liues of their popes but he hath red when how and by whom they were deuised for there is few of them for many hundred yeares together that thought as it should seeme by the vvriters of their liues that they had worthily sate in that place vnles they had deuised some newe rite and ceremony more then was before But if one goe no further then to Polidor de inventoribus rerum there shall hee finde when and by whom they had their originall whereby also it shal appeare that for many of thē they are of so late devising they cannot pretend either the testimony of ancient fathers or prescriptiō of any long time for very few of them whatsoeuer he bragges can they truly alleadge consent of all Christian regions for as they haue most of them beene deuised here in these parts of the worlde by bishops of Rome so few of them in comparison haue beene or yet be receaued in the other parts of Christianity that were vnder the other Patriarches of Constātinople Alexandria Antioch yea euen here in these parts all their rites ceremonies were neuer yet vniuersally receaued of euery cuntry alike no nor yet of euery part of any one cuntry But they being in number so many in nature a number of them so childish and foolish yet hauing beene vrged as they haue to be vsed with such opinion and holines S. Pauls reprehension of those that were in his time so busy with the Colossians in vrging thē to keepe their ordinances the keeping whereof lay in touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. is both a bewraying when such like ceremonies as these that he brags of first began and also a iust and a full condemnation of them Read also S. Augustines 119 epistle ad Ianuarium and you shall finde there how earnestly he hath enueied against the multiplying and bringing in so vrging of such vnnecessary rites and ceremonies shewing how few the simplicity of the gospel is contented withal And yet as it is wel known he liued 1000 years ago and that since his time there are 1000. new rites ceremonies deuised in the Romish church that he neuer had heard of yet thē he complained that there were so many and they so seruilely were vrged that the Iewes state was in that respect far more tolerable what would he haue said then if he had liued in these daies and had seene the curious infinite and foolish rites and ceremonies but of one popish priest formally doing his masse Indeed fasting is a thing and so is prayer that hath countenance of scriptures fathers Christian regions and of all ages and times but so hath not either the popish fasting or praying For their fasting is tyed superstitiously to set daies and also lyeth especially in abstinence from one meat rather then from an other their end therein being not onely to chastise the body that it may be brought the more readily feruently to obey the holy direction of the spirit as the word of God teacheth onely it should but euen thereby to satisfie either for some sin past or to earne or deserue somewhat at the hands of God Such fasting as this was that of the hypocritical pharisies wherof Christ warn◠his disciples Mat. 6.16 the first fathers teachers hereof are those spirits of errour that S. Paul speakes of 1. Tim. 4. and so you may there see both who first in the church of Christ found out practised your kind of fasting who by by spied it condēned it for hypocritical the doctrine of deuils But if you would haue vs to search further we tel you that after Christ his Apostles times Eusebius reports in his 5 booke 16 chapter out of Apolonius that Montanus the heretique prescribed lawes of fasting he is the first that we read of that tyed fasting by law to prescript daies times which is there reckoned vp by that Apolonius as one of his heretical deuises This Montanus was about the yeare of the Lord 145. And it appears in Augustines 2. booke 13. cha of the manners of the church of the Manichees that it was the fashiō thē of those heretiques to thinke vpon their fasting daies that they fasted excellētly though otherwise they had neuer so daintyre so they abstained from flesh wine for the which Augustine doth deride thē And cōsequently herein Apolonius Augustine haue shewed their dislike of that popish fasting If yet it should be replied as it is by some of their side that their fasting is not altogither like the condemned abstinence of these ancient heretiques others for that they abstained frō flesh vpon an opinion that flesh was an impurer creature then fish how will they thē excuse Durand li. 6. ca. de ieiunijs who giueth this as a reason of their abstinence vpon fasting daies rather from flesh then from fish because al flesh was accursed in the daies of Noe not all fish Now touching their māner of praying for al his brag neither fathers consent of all Christian regions prescription of any long continuāce of time nor scriptures giue it any credit or coūtenāce at al. For first whereas now they pray al in Latine a toūg not vnderstood of most that heare vse their prayers it is a kinde of praying flatly condemned because it is without edification to such by Chrysostome Ambrose vpō the 14. of the first to the Corinthians Augustine also de Genesi ad literā li. 12. Cap. 8. ioines with them herein aduouching that no mā is edified by hearing that which he vnderstands not And the descriptions of al the auncient lyturgies in the Church shew that alwaies they were vsed in such a tongue as the people vnderstood aswell as the minister there is such mentiō of intercourse of speech one to the other as any man may see that perused the descriptions thereof yea writers both old new do plainely testify that the ancient long cōtinued vse of the church hath bene to haue
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
deal with such an one as he had thē to approue his calling by miracles wheras ours in this is far more substātiallie iustified by the scriptures frō whēce our doctrine hath warrāt that hath wrought this effect then it could haue by miracles For as whē the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof it was needful because thē it was new that Moses credit the publisher therof the law it selfe should be cōfirmed by miracle but whē in the raigne of Iosiah Hilkiah the priest foūd the booke of the law which had lien hid before a long time so did but reuiue or renue the same law that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles he wrought no miracles neither was there any called for or looked for at his hāds for it was needles Euē so whē the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias what new gouernment sacraments he would haue in his house it was necessary that miracles should be wrought to confirme the ministry of thē that should teach these new strange thinges first vnto the world but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently cōfirmed by miracles we comming in these later daies of the world and not taking vpon vs to preach any other doctrine then the former and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times had lyen in great part hid no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for Indeede if it could be proued but once that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine as you often in wordes charge vs that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by were any other but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church there were yet some colour of reason why they should bee thus called for at our handes But seeing wee stand vpon that point and haue alwaies done that our religion is the very same and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments by them left for the same purpose vnto the church there is no reason at all in matching vs thus as you doe with Moses and in requiring miracles of vs as of him And vntill you can proue by the scriptures that the doctrine that we preach is false which you neuer shall be able to doe the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 29. vttered by him to admonish the people in his time to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced with the false and lying Prophets that were in those daies make nothing at all against vs nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand which was to proue that seeing we worke no miracles therefore our commission cannot be good in taking vpon vs to reforme you For in these places euē by the words as they are set down by your selfe it most euidently appeares that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets as prophecied falsly in the name of God hauing no vocation from him and labouring to seduce the people by false visions naughty diuinations southsayings and their owne dreames whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word and neuer vse but alwaies abhor the vse of all these meanes that they vsed to seduce the people by But herein most certaine it is that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be For you be they indeede that were neuer sent of Christ but of Antichrist and that preach false doctrine as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting but by the contrariety of your doctrine in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world more relied vpon false visions diuinations southsayings fond dreames for indeede they are the best most vsuall pillers grounds of your Popish doctrine For what is more common with you then to the ende these may haue place to complaine and by long rhetoricall discourses to make what shew you can of the obscurity vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen that so with some colour you may shew the triall of your doctrine by that touchstone and all because in your owne consciences you know that it cannot be iustified thereby And then when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning what you may the credit of the scriptures to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten traditions and liuely practise of the church that so by that window you may thrust in and out to the Church whatsoeuer pleaseth you be it neuer so fond a visiō diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads But yet once againe for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand whither we be sent of God or no for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs you thinke you may pleade simplicity and ignorance for your excuse as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially you say seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit and seeing you reade that the Angell of darknes will sometime trāsforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light c. But withall you must remember that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. so to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the mā of God wise to saluatiō thorowly to furnish him to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue that not only our calling is of God but that also we teach the trueth according to the same and that therefore notwithstanding we worke no miracles yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance as Abimelechs was but either wilfull or of an idle peeuish negligence and therefore such as cannot excuse you in refusing to beleeue vs. And as it is writen that sathan will so transforme himselfe as you write and that we should take heede what way we take for there is a way that seemeth good and yet leadeth to destruction so you must remember that still the due consideration of the writen word is the meanes to preserue vs frō the dāger of both For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe whereby else shall a young man learne to frame his waies aright but by taking heede thereunto according
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
rest of the Chapter there is nothing but scoffing at Luther and Sleydan ioyned with malitious slaundering of the one to haue bred not onely Coralstadius Zuinglius and Oecolampadius whereof he needed not to be ashamed if it were so but also Muncer the Anabaptist and the other to be a partiall Cronicler which are things easie for you to speake but impossible for you to proue and therefore therein vntil you bring further proofe you are worthy no further answere And therefore as yet for any thing you haue saied you were best follow our counsell and receiue the Gospel which we preach vnto you least the dust we shake off of our feete against you proue a witnesse against you in earnest at the day of iudgement The XXII Chapter ALthough that by the testimonie of your owne doctours ye are condeÌ„ned yet you doe stil maintaine your ill cause saying that ye ought to be receaued to preach the Gospel a Still herein you flatly bely slander vs. extraordinarilie b If the ordinary way be thus by Pastours and Bishops then few or none of your Priests haue entred the ordinary way from whose ordering Pastours haue beene and be vsually shut out that is to saie without the commission of the Pastors Bishops being those that are sent vs by the permission ordinance of God And you saie to maintaine your commission extraordinarie that you haue the holie scriptures which you doe alleage c This obiection you will neuer be able to answere the which alone ought in this behalfe to be of more credit then al the miracles that euer the Apostles did For it mate so chauÌ„ce that by subtle deuises impostures of the deuil miracles maie be falselie counterfâ—â—ted but not the scripture which is the touchstone of the trueth as it shal be seene by experieÌ„ce wheÌ„ the childe of perditioÌ„ otherwise called Antichrist shal come For he to confirme his saying shall shew such great signes and Miracles that the verie elect should be seduced if it were possible Now to answere vnto this which is a notable waie to deceiue the simple and vnlearned d Nay we take not our cause iustified because we alleadge scriptures but because by the rule of right interpreting we be able to shew that the true sence thereof is of our side which heretiques cannot doe therfore we standing vpon this as vpon the foundation of our cause and we being alwaies ready to yeelde vnlesse we can proue we truely alleadge them all that you say in sundry chapters following to proue that heretiques haue alleaged them is needelesse and beside the point I saie that if the alleaging of Scriptures should maintaine you and fauour your cause so much as you doe saie our side were driuen to hard shiftes for then we might bee blamed before the seat of God not onelie for not receiuing your Gospell but likewise for refusing the Gospell of diuers heretikes that haue beene manie hundred yeares before you vvere borne vvhich did al alleage the Scriptures as it doeth appeare by the three passages vvriten vnto the * Cap. 6.10 12. Hebrewes aboue mentioned By the vvhich the Nouatians did pretende to verifie that the mercie of God vvas denied vnto him that did offende after his Baptisme ioined with that that is writen in the first booke of the Kings If man saied the good Helye doeth sinne agaynst man hee maie agree with him agayne but if hee come to offende God who shall hee bee that shall pray for his sinne Did not the Arrians alleage Scriptures to maintaine that Christ vvas not God and man Yes surelie e How or which proue you this as manie places or more then the Catholikes Saint Augustine doeth vvrite in his booke De haeresibus ad quod vult deum That there vvas in his time a certaine sect of heretikes that taught that for a man to be saued hee ought to be gelded And they did alleage the nineteenth Chapter of S. Mat. where Christ doeth praise the Eunuches which haue gelded themselues for the kingdome of heauen And if a man were disposed to forge another heresie like this hee might soone finde scripture to maintaine it beeing ill interpreted for he doeth commande that wee should pull out our eies and to cut off our handes and feete euerie time that through them we are scandalizated for saieth he it were better for one to enter blinde or lame into the kingdome of heauen then to be condemned hauing all our members so that taking these words as they are plainlie writen we ought to cut the members from our bodie f It seemes you haue beene brought vp in this trade of misalleadging the Scriptures you are so cunning in matching herein wicked heretiques Besides this he that would forge an heresie somewhat more pleasant and easie one might soone doe it the which is that for to goe to Paradise we haue no neede of hose shooes or money because that our Sauiour did so commaund it to his Apostles One maie likewise proue by the Gospell that we haue no neede of Magistrates nor other Superiours forasmuch as our Sauiour hath saied that one is your Lord and master namelie Christ Moreouer a man maie proue by scripture that one ought to retaine nothing vnto himselfe if anie other demaunde it forasmuch as it is writen If one demaund of you your coate you ought not onelie to giue it but your dublet also and if one giue vs a box on the eare it is not inough to take it patientlie but we must turne the other cheeke also g And to this heresie you come maruellous neare in your cap. 34. Iouinian a great heretike did teach that a Christian after his baptisme doeth no more offend God yea that hee could not although he would Who would not hate such a blasphemous errour as this yet if the alleaging of the Scriptures ought to suffise he maie be preferred before Master Caluin as more ancient for hee doeth alleage Saint Iohn in his first * Cap. 5. Epistle vvho saieth Wee knowe that hee that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the generation of God doeth preserue him and the ill spirit shall not touch him And in the same h That is a curled glosse that corrupts the text Iohn speaks not of the sacramentall regeneratioÌ„ but â—f effectuall regeneration by the spirit which alwaies accompanies not the other Euery man that is borne of God that is to saie baptized hee doeth not sinne for the seede of God doeth dwell in him and hee cannot sinne for he is borne of God Saint Augustine doeth write in his eightie nine Epist ad Hilarium that the Pelagians and Manichees among other heresies that they did maintaine they saied that it vvas impossible for rich men to enter into Paradise vntill they had solde all their goods and giuen them to the poore and that all things ought to be commoÌ„ The which doctrine is easilie to be maintained
accounted amongst vs a soūd preacher of the gospell hath either sayed that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell or hath attempted so to doe For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches that professe the gospell and so lykewise is their vniforme practise that none be suffered to take vpō them to preach the gospel vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church where hee is ordered he be sufficiently authorished so to doe And wel knowen it is that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed but the order thereof is that none meddle in the ministry therein without commissiō as it pleaseth you to speake either from some conueniēt number of pastours or from some bishop or from both by the order of that church appointed to looke to and to take care of that busines As for the Anabaptists a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter we know that in their fantastical spirit they both hold and practise as here you charge vs but therin and therfore we dislike condemne them as much as you And you know we renounce communion with them we coūt them heretickes therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault which you cānot proue to be ours But you wil say I am sure for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptist his petigree frō Luther that we may worthely so be charged for they are such as spring of and from vs. But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field should haue done him if they had saied that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field had beene there sowed by him because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel there were foūd in the same age springing vp with the same amongst the professours therof Ebionites Cerinthians Nicolaitans Simonists and sundry other fantastical heretickes as Hymeneus Philetus Hermogines and Phygetus was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond cōceits And yet as absurd sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were it is both here with you oft in this your booke vsuall is it with all of your spirit this now for want of better matter against vs by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs our churches and religion But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily but also you lay to our charge that we seeke still to defend an ill cause and an extraordinary commission This you onely say as your maner is but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring neither indeede can you For our cause is the very trueth and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching and confirming the same vnto men that Christ hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth and to be preferred in credit before miracles Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech in that you say we affirme that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles Well this our reason to iustifie our cause and commission you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write For you cannot be ignorant that to confute errour to proue trueth to exhort to vertue and to dehort from vice Christ and his Apostles and so from time to time the ancient fathers what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose did alleadge scripture but your shift will be that these alleadged the scripture rightly which you speake not of and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture but against alleadging it as we doe Then I answer that that you should haue proued that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense but this you haue not once gone about only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretēd for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture and that often very plentifully About this you spend sundry Chapters and withall to shew your selfe to be able if you list to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention all which is to no purpose vnles withall you had proued which you shall neuer be able to doe that we alleadging them doe alleadge them so likewise For we are not so simple or ignorāt that we know not that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged as you write and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 and the doctrine of S. Iohn they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right before they beleeue them 1. Iohn 4.15 we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture is of any priuate interpretation and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane whosoeuer gyues or allowes them that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture the holy Ghost And therefore we hold and teach for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God 1. Cor. 1.15 that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture◠is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning but according to the counsell of S. Iames finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome we exhort all men
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
againe I require the voice of the sheepheard read me this matter out of the Prophets read it out of the Psalms read it out of the law read it out of the Gospel read it out of the Apostles writings in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ gratiâ and according to these bookes of the scriptures we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium The fathers are full of such places whereby any man may see that by their very good leaue we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing not taught in the scriptures vpon their bare authority and therefore these and such like places in them considered if you would haue had their names the places you cite in them to haue in sadnes bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for either should you haue warraÌ„ted them by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant at the least to the same Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader to make him thinke that the fathers you name for these matters are further of your opinion then they be indeede as I haue not refused to examine your opinion and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies so will I for the Christian readers sake take the paines to deale with you for in al your other 3 opinions of confession praier to Saints for the dead with it your seueral quotations set down for the proofe of the same To go on therefore according to my course begun for confession before the receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t you saie first our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn 20. Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession that you speake of you meane your auricular confession wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care that that in the 6 7 and 8 Canon thereof touching this matter it solemnely anathematizeth al those that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation by the law of God saying that it is but the deuise of man Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest of al mortal sins at the least with al their circumstances whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares of both sexes at least once in the yeare and that namely in lent before their receiuing at Easter Now this confession your schoolmen and doctours do teach must be made so fullie and exactly that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be coÌ„cealed for then therby al the labour is lost and the absolutioÌ„ frustrated from al the rest Which doctrine cannot chuse but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of coÌ„scieÌ„ces For first it laieth vpoÌ„ them an ineuitable necessity not onelie to doe that which God neuer required at their hands but also that which either is simply impossible vnto theÌ„ to doe for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof or else impossible for them to doe in such maner as that they can satisfie themselues that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins the circuÌ„stances thereof that they should coÌ„fesse to their remeÌ„braÌ„ce which a nuÌ„ber of your owne side most deuoutly giueÌ„ to doe this in the best maner haue bene enforced to confesse Yet this confession before the sacrament though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures but was as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict 17. art 3. and Anton part 3. histatit 19 doe confesse first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel in InnoceÌ„t the thirds time about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene you here would seeme to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce by two places of scripture co begin withal But your betters haue thought otherwise of this your kinde of confession For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely that it came in rather by some tradition then either by authority of the olde testament or new which tradition he saieth yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it though not the Greekes East Church which haue it not And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof not onely gathered that it was not in vse then but also hee sheweth that he thought it came in after grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times And Soto coÌ„tra BreÌ„tiuÌ„ reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints and for the dead this also amongst the things grouÌ„ded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply honestly if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather then from the scriptures But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there which they could not let vs a little consider how fâ—ly now the places you quote serue your turne You meane I am sure both by your words and quotations that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew John in the places you quote in these words to thee speaking namely in the first place to Peter I wil giue the keies of the kingdoÌ„e of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth shal be bound in heauen whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heaueÌ„ And in the other he breathed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ and saied receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sins yee remit they are remitted whose sins yee retaine they are retained Wherby indeed it is euident that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest after gaue to al his faithful Apostles first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the â—eies of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose and to remit retaine sinnes which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the peniteÌ„t beleeuer and denouÌ„ced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers with all duety as they saw cause vsing the censures of the Church of admonition rebuking suspending and excommunicating though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still not by the helpe of your
doe wee haue assurance as long as wee aske according to his vvill the first of Iohn and the fift because he is mercifull and true and faithfull in all his promises And therefore we thinke it is a sure way to run to him and to trust to him in all our needes and necessities If we would haue an aduocate either of mediation or intercession vnto him wee haue one for all euen Iesus our Lord and sauiour For as Paul first teacheth vs ther is but one God so likewise in the same verse he assureth vs there is but one mediatour betweene God mā which is the mā Christ Iesus 1. Tim. 2. and Iohn ioyning with him in his first epistle second Chapter pointeth him only vnto vs to be our aduocate with the father And he being the 1 fountaine of al grace mercy the 2 authour and finisher of our faith 3 the dore of the sheepfold 4 the way truth life his 5 name being the onely name wherby commeth saluation 6 and he being he but by whom he himselfe hath tolde vs none cōmeth vnto the father 1 Iohn 1. vers 14. Colos 1.19 2 Heb. 12.2 3 Iohn 10.7 4 Iohn 14. vers 6. 5 Act. 4 12. 6 Iohn 14.6 especially seeing he hath allured all that are heauy loaden and weary to come vnto him Mat. 11.28 he being of that property that we know he is not to break a brokē reed nor to quēch the smoking flax Esa 42. ve 3. and yet able perfectly to saue those that come vnto God by him seeing he euer liueth to make intercession for them He. 7.25 We know and are sure we should doe him the greatest wrong that may be considering also that he hath vpon his word assured vs that whatsoeuer we aske the father in his nāe beleeuing we shal obteine it Mat. 21 22. and Iohn 14.13 If wee should leaue him at all one so able and willing euery way to serue our turn alone to run vnto any Saint or Angel of his And therfore as we dare make our praiers to none but vnto God so dare we vse no other mediatour or aduocate vnto him but onely Iesus Christ our Lord and sauiour We are sure it sauoureth strongly of lack of faith in vs in him if not of flat Antichristian blasphemie once but to imagine that any be Saint or she Saint in heauē or Angell wil be readier to take compassion of vs or that we may be bolder to vse any of their intercessiōs to God thē his For in al things he became like vnto vs his brethren that he might be merciful and a faithfull high Priest in things concerning God that he might make reconciliatiō for the sinnes of the people for in that he suffered and was tempted he is able to succour them that are tēpted Heb. 2.17.18 For we haue not a high Priest which cannot bee touched with the feeling of our infirmities but was in all things in like sort tempted yet without sinne let vs therefore go boldely vnto the throne of grace that wee may receaue mercy and finde grace through him in time of neede Heb. 4.15.16 And let vs take heede in this case whiles we follow your example in leauing him and running to Saints to pray for vs we commit not the two euills that the prophet Ieremy chargeth the people of Israel withal Ier. 2.12 13. that is forsake the liuing fountaine a foūtaine of liuing waters to dig vnto our selues pits euen broken pits that will hold no water For as thē he saieth in respect of these two faults O yee heauens be astonied at this bee affraide confounded saieth the Lord so worthily may we say in respect of this your folly and double sinne in this point For though to lessen somewhat your sinne herein you would seeme to plead onely for praying vnto the Saints in paradise to helpe you with their prayers that nothing indeede can help you For not onely for these reasons is euen that abhominable and vnlawful but certaine it is that you in your practise as I haue shewed at large in my answere to your publishers preface most grossely and Antichristianly pray vnto the Saints themselues thorough their merits to procure you the thinges you sue for Yea you are gone so farre that according to the multitude of your necessities the varietie of occupations and the distinctions of regions and cuntries you haue appointed the Saints to their seuerall offices and limits therein imitating the idolatrous heathē who imagining that there were many Gods thought it good to know euery one of their offices that accordingly they might vse them as August de ciuitate Dei lib. 4. 22. noteth And especially as touching the blessed Virgin Mary vnder pretence of your loue and deuotion towards her you haue so forgot your duety Religion towards her son that all the titles proper to her sonne you haue inuested her withall calling her Mediatris Saluatris gate of heauen queene of heauen and your only hope refuge yea you haue not stucke calling vpon her to cry vnto her saying commaund thy sonne vse the right of a mother so shewe thy selfe to haue the authority of a mother And yet if you would confesse the trueth in this point you both should and would acknowledge that you haue learned thus to honour her the other Saints neither of scripture nor of any ancient father but of cursed condēned heretiques whatsoeuer either you here or any of your fellows else where pretend to the contrary For Epiphanius writing first against certaine heretiques called Antidicomarionites lib. 3. Tom. 2. haeres 78. and next against others called Colliridians haeres 79. of the same booke and come he sheweth how that these heretiques exceeded euen as you doe in offering vnto Mary and in honouring and worshipping of her against whom he there at large inueieth bitterly as against most vile idolaters for the same telling them that so to doe was vngodly and wicked and strange frō the preaching of the holy ghost yea altogether a worke of the Deuill and a doctrine of the vncleane spirit for Mary was no God neither was she giuen vs saieth he to be adored though she were a most excellent honourable Virgin but saieth he to forewarnemen of which kinde of too much admiring her Christ saied vnto her woman what haue I to doe with thee And a little after in the latter place he saieth Neque Elias adorandus c. that is neither is Elias to be adored or prayed vnto though he liue nor Iohn nor Tecla nor any other Saint For the olde errour shall not ouerrule vs that we leaue the liuing God and worship those things that are made by him For they worshipped and adored the creature praeter creatorem besides the creator they became fooles Rom. 1. For if an Angell will not be adored how much more will not she that was borne of Anna. And therefore in the ende concludeth Mariam nemo
for such as worshipped them as that thereby it may most clearely appeare that you haue no stay nor moderatiō at all whatsoeuer you say in praying to them Thus then thou maiest see Christian Reader for all M. Albines sending of thee to reade Origen Chrysostome Augustine and Hierom for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradise that not onely they haue quite forsaken him therein but that also both Scripture they and a number of ancient fathers besides haue condemned that their praying vnto Saints for grosse idolatry The most thou seest that any of the fathers quoted by him for this haue saied that hath any soūd the way is that they thought it was not inconuenient to thinke that the Saints in heauen praied for the Saints aliue yet vpon the earth and that therby they did them some good which as I haue shewed thee by good reasons proueth not that therefore they are to be praied vnto thus of vs. But to conclude this matter euen touching this point I would haue thee to vnderstand that the first brochers hereof they of the ancient fathers that most seemed to bee resolued of it yet spake thereof but stammeringly and doubtfully For thou hast heard Origen onely say that he thought it was not incōuenient to think so and vpon the second Chapter to the Romans moouing that question whether the soules of the Saints departed doe any thing and labour for vs as the Angels doe or no he in conclusion determineth that if they doe that yet it is amongst Gods secretes and that it is a mystery not to be committed to paper And Augustine de curâ agendâ pro mortuis inclines to the negatiue and therefore to that end alleadgeth that Esa 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and Israel hath forgot vs. And though Nazianzene seeme with Origen and Cyprian to think they doe pray for vs and procure vs good yet where he shewes himselfe to be most of that mind as in his oration of Basil and in his epitaph of his father he vttereth it not as a resolute trueth whereof he was sure but aduouching it addeth as I think if I be not deceaued or if it be not too much to say so which argueth that he was not perswaded and resolued that it was a plaine trueth taught in the worde but that onelie it was thought to bee a thing probable and possible and therefore this must needes be a weake ground to build so massy and huge a building vpon as the popish praying to Saints cōmeth to To conclude therefore this point in this case notably hath Augustine saied whē the question is of a thing most obscure the certaine and plaine instructions of the diuine authority not helping vs to decide the matter let mans presumption stay it selfe doing nothing by inclining rather to the one side then another De pec meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And againe seeing it is euidēt that they haue no ground for it in scripture which some of the best of themselues confesse with Augustine let vs say both of this and that which they would builde thereon of Christ or of his Church or of any thing else which apperteineth to faith or life if we but as Paul saied if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto you beside that which yee haue receiued in the scriptures of the law the gospel let him be accursed contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And so vpon these premisses boldly let vs conclude and say with him Non sit nobis religio cultus hominū mortuorū de verâ religione cap. 55. let it bee no part of our religion to worship dead men For as he there addeth If they liued godly indeed they are not now in that minde that they would haue such honours giuen them of vs but God they would haue vs worship Now we are come to the last point of your 4 which is praying for the dead for the which you wil vs to read two places in Tertullian one in Cyprian two in Origen one in Chrysostome and three in Augustine which at your request I hauing done though I must needes confesse this your errour in some of these hath more countenance and allowance giuen it then the former had yet I hope by that I haue done with you you shal haue as little cause to brag that all these Doctours teach you your kinde of praying for the dead as any of the former things that you haue alleadged any of them for for some of these your authours in these places you quote doe not so much as mētion praying for the dead at all onely they speake of a certaine purging paine after this life that diuersely some in one sence some in an other But I see in perusing these quotations that your leasure could aford to set downe for this point others that diuers of your side vpon deepe deliberation purpose to handle the matter as seriously as they could haue to this end remēbred that to make a shew of great proofe whē you haue very smal any place that in any sence maketh mention of purging after this life that serueth you woulde make your reader beleeue not only to proue your fained purgatorie but also to proue your praying for the dead and againe any place in what sence soeuer that mētioneth praying for the dead that must needs proue both purgatory your maner of praying to relieue souls there Which because it is the thing whereby both you are abused wherby most fondly yet absurdly in this case you alwaies seeke to abuse your poore simple reader before I proceede any further to examine your quotations I must labour somewhat to acquaint him wt. First therfore let him marke what force there is in this kind of argumēts Origē or some other father speaks of some purging paine after this life ergo of the popish purgatorie Augustine speaketh vnconstantly or very doubtfully of a purging paine or place after this life ergo questionles there is such a third place as the papists imagin such purging there is as they teach And there is such a place ergo they that be there must and can be relieued there by the praiers of the lyuing or in some sort the dead are to be remēbred in our praiers ergo they in that place therby to be releiued For these are the very argumēts which are by the mainteiners of praier for the dead and purgatory cōfusedly iumbled togither out of the fathers Secōdly for the better espying of the weakenes of al these argumēts he must vnderstand how variably vncertainly the fathers haue spokē writē of purging after this life how far frō the popish sēce likewise he must be aduertised how diuers waies remembrance may be made hath beene for the dead by the fathers and yet not in their sence Concerning the first wherof because Origen Augustine are two that Albin hath especially here named by their mentioning of purging after
hence men ouergrowen and oppressed with thornes Sure such as these go straight to hell or else none In the other two places it cannot be denied he both mentions praier for the dead and in some sorte alloweth thereof and holdeth thereby good to come to the dead the places are in his Enchiridion to Laurence cap. 110. and in his booke de curâ agendâ pro mortuis But both in these same places and else very often in his workes as namelie in the 1 4. and 18. Chapters of the later booke in his 23. sermon de verbis Apostoli in his 21 booke of the Citty of God cap. 13. and 24. and to Dulcitius quaest 2 it appeareth that herein and hereabout in his time there was great question some as the common people stretching the vse of praiers for the dead euen to the discharging of the worst sort and some altogither disalowing any kinde of good to come thereby whereupon somewhat too much caried with a desire to appease the commō people he chose the meane betwixt 2 extremities which he thought in this case the safest and so that he seemeth to teach that they were profitable for a mean sort neither perfectly good nor extreame bad And that in this question of the determining the auailablenes of praiers for the dead he was both greatly caried by the sway of the opinions of the multitude and greatly perplexed to finde out of what sins men might be eased therby he himselfe most plainly sheweth de ciuitate Dei l. 21. c. 24. 27. in the first hereof disputing such questions thereabout as he did in the other confessing that though he had searched much for that matter yet he could not be satisfied therein and who so readeth his booke de curâ agendâ pro mortuis hee shall finde it wonderful full of doubts and questions about this matter and before I haue shewed how variable vnconstant he was for the purging fire after this life what a weake and tottering foundation or ground then is Saint Augustines authoritie in this case to build vpon But if hee had beene neuer so confident constant and resolute herein seeing hee confesseth as he doeth that he hath no warrant for it in the scriptures but the Machabees that he laieth the custōe of praying offring for the dead as the verie foundation of his opinion in this point by his owne leaue and rules we may lawfullie without offering him any wrong dissent from him herein as I haue shewed sundry times before For in his 112 Epistle most plainely and honestly he saieth Follow not so my authority that therefore thou shouldest thinke thy selfe of necessity bound to beleeue it because I haue saied it and de vnitate ecclesiae Cap. 10. we must not saieth he agree to catholicke bishops if peraduēture they be deceiued or hold any thing contrary to the scriptures the reason is that as he saieth contra faustum l. 11. cap. 5. such mens writings are to bee read not with necessity of beleeuing but with liberty of iudging For onely to the scriptures without gainesaying saieth he I owe my consent Epist 19. ad Hieronimum This leaue and liberty you take in refusing either him or any other of the fathers in a number of points where you like them not and why should not we then haue leaue to doe likewise in this being able as we are to proue that herein he went further then either he had any warrant for out of the canonical scriptures or out of any vnforged and vncounterfeited president for three hundreth yeares at the least of any ancient father But when you haue made the most of his speeches and writings you can you can neuer without doing of him most grosse iniury make him to allow of your kinde of sacrificing and offering the body and bloud of Christ vnto God the father as a propitiatory sacrifice for the dead For de fide ad Petrum Diaconum Cap. 10. most confidentlie he hath taught bidding vs to hold it most stedfastly and nothing doubt therof but that Christ offered that sacrifice to his father himselfe and that the holy Catholique Church ceaseth not to offer the sacrifice of bread and wine in faith charity which must needs be a sacrifice of thankesgiuing and commemoration of the other onelie propitiatorie sacrifice not an offering of it againe as you imagin◠for quicke or dead Thus at last we haue viewed and scanned all your euidence Master Albine and for any thing we can yet finde vnlesse gaine and commodity that commeth rowling in vpon you by the practice of this point of praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie were a more forcible argument to continue your liking thereof then anie thing saied and taught with anie constancie by anie of these doctours in any of these places or any where else to countenance it withall we might easilie be perswaded that you would quietlie giue ouer stāding any longer in such egre defence of it as you do But indeede this argument hath proued so sweete and strong of your side that vntill we be able to weaken this as we haue done the rest that is to stop the passage of the cōming in of gaine and commodity vnto you this way we shall neuer put you to silence in this howsoeuer we preuaile with you in all other points This is the argument of arguments the first and last middlemost all that in trueth you haue for this of any weight And this we cannot deny to such as you be must needs seeme a most notable argumēt For to make you in loue with it and euen for the sake thereof alone to hold on your plea in this cause purgatory hath so pickt other mens purses filled yours so dispossessed others possessed you and praying for soules there hath so brought in paiments to you pilled and poled the heires frends of the dead that if you wil speake for any thing surely you will speake neuer giue ouer speaking for this Iohānes Angelus a mā of some credit of your side saieth that the soules that are in purgatory are of the Popes iurisdictiō that he if he would could at once euē empty purgatory therfore as it should seeme by his owne right your Pope Clemēt the 6. in his time by his buls cōmaunded the Angels to deliuer thēce so many soules as he thought good But I pray you this being thus why neither did he nor any before him being so holy merciful fathers to their subiects cliēts as you pretēd they are take such compassion of the poore soules there as of charity and compassion to ridde them all thence at once The reason was that this your onely argument of gaine still to grow thereby might continue frō time to time in force For doubtles it is not to be supposed that such a noble rase of holy most holy fathers would haue stayed all this while from doing such a wonderfull worke of