ouer And therefore good Reader thou maist see by this little what thou must expect hereafter That when hee hath shewed the flawes and maladies of my Treatise as hee supposeth and disgorged himselfe of some carping exceptions against some mistaken questions if any such happen to occurre The substance of the Booke will stand sound and firme against all the cauelling Champions of the Romish Synagogue And so wishing them all increase of knowledge to Gods glory I bid them Farewell in Christ Tho. Vdall A briefe Replie of Thomas Vdall Gentle to a short Memorandum or shew of answere against his Booke Intituled A briefe view of the VVeake Grounds of Popery By B. C. student in Diuinitie according to the order proposed in the Preface B. C. Sect. 1. BEeing thus dispatched of Master Rogers it remaineth to speake a word or two of another Booke which was not long since sent me and is Intituled A briefe viewe of the weake grounds of Popery compiled together by one Master Vdall a lay Gentleman of diuers English Controuertists as himselfe seemeth to insinuate and in all probabilitie cannot otherwise bee thought and so no maruaile if the waters bee not sound when they were drawen from corrupt fountaines and who can euer looke for a well shapen garment made after a crooked measure Grapes are not gathered of thornes Mat. 8.16 nor figges of thistles as our Sauiour saith yet doth it so much please Master Vdall that hee doth seeme to take great heart of grace for that hee was not answered with that expedition he expected The more haste hee maketh the more he vrgeth his owne disgrace if malice haue set him a worke but if it be true zeale of truth and sauing his soule as he pretendeth I despaire not of his conuersion wherefore either for the spirituall profit of himselfe or the commoditie of other or common good of both I will now present him with a short sample of such foule flawes as bee in his booke minding afterward with more full hand to prosecute that subiect T. V. IT séemes at the first entrance of Master B. C. Memorandū That he would willingly extenuate the matter of my Booke by tearming me A lay Gentleman insinuating to his Popish dependants That they should not so much weigh what is spoken as who speakes though all men of iudgement weigh rather the speech then the speaker And so I hope will not inquire so much what I am as what I say The generall scope and drift of my whole booke may bee thus deduced That Religion which hath weake and vncertaine grounds cannot bee the true Religion But Popish Religion hath weake and vncertaine grounds Ergo Popish Religion cannot bee the true Religion The Maior is euident and the Minor is prooued throughout my whole booke in the Refutation of euery particular grounde of Popery Against my Booke Master B. C. reasoneth thus That which is drawen from English Controuertists cannot be sound But Master Vdalles Booke is drawen from English Controuertists Ergo Master Vdalles Booke cannot be sound How Master B. C. hath quit himselfe for the proofe either of his Maior or Minor I leaue to the censure of the learned But I pray you let me aske you this question May not truth bee drawen from English Controuertists What will then become of Hardings workes the Rhemes Testament Cardinall Allens Parsons Raynolds Bristowes and your owne with many others Surely if the feathers you haue borrowed from Harding Stapleton and others were pluckt from you your whole booke would be as naked as Esopes Crow If I haue takē great heart of grace for that I was not answered with that expedition I expected I may doe so still for any answere I haue yet made you neither doe I see any cause now to discourage me since that after almost two yéeres méeting with one so sharpe sighted as your selfe I find nothing answered to any purpose For I truely protest I sée not neither I thinke doe you What spirituall profite to my selfe or what commoditie to other or what common good to both the short sample of such foule flawes as you present me with should procure either to other or to me But you mind hereafter you say to prosecute that subiect with a more full hand you had neede for this is very barren and emptie And if your promises hereafter prooue no better then these supposed flawes now presented you may well chaunge your opinion And say you dispaire altogether of my conuersion B. C. Sect. 2. IN his Preface to his deerest Cousins whom with poyson lurking vnder sugred words he laboureth to inuenome hee accuseth vs of open blasphemie against the sacred Scriptures which I thinke will rather proue a grosse vntruth on his part and where is this blasphemie contained in a booke as he telleth vs of Cardinall Cusanus which is intituled De authoritate c Of the authoritie of the Church and Councels aboue and against the Scriptures But I beseech him did he euer see this booke which so confidently hee alleageth if he hath then should he haue done well to haue noted where that the Reader also might haue found it seeing it is not amongst the three Tomes of his workes set out at Basill In the yeere 1565. neither mentioned by Trithemius who hath diligently gathered together the workes of learned writers nor yet by Posseuinus who hath lately entreated of the same matter In the yeere 1565. If he hath not what indiscretion is it in so weightie a point to relie vpon the credit of others Verily wold such as read Protestants bookes but vouchsafe sometime to examine the quotations it were not possible that they could bee so pittifully deceiued as they daily be Cusanus is abused he neuer wrot any such booke This vntruth it may bee borrowed from Master Iewell Detection lib. 5. pag. 410. who doth not onely cite that booke but also as though hee had knowen it very well quote very many places out of the same as hee is charged by Doctor Harding which argueth that out of true bookes hee could haue proued any thing for himselfe that out of one which was neuer written found so many testimonies to serue his turne I would not wish Master Vdall to imploy his time so badly as with the touch of his credite and perill of his owne soule to retale the vntruths of such grosse Merchants T. V. THat which you call Poyson is rather an Antidote against the infection of such poysoned spirits as yours But to the matter it is true that in the Preface of my booke I haue charged the Papists iustly with blasphemie The force of my reason there may be thus deduced Those which haue published blasphemies in print against the sacred Scriptures haue vttered open blasphemie But the Papists haue published blasphemies in print against the sacred Scriptures Ergo the Papists haue vttered open blasphemie The Maior is euident and the Minor is prooued by Cardinall Cusanus Syluester Prierias
Boniface the Arch-bishop of Mentz Hosius Eckius and others Against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus If Cardinall Cusanus neuer writ any such booke then there is no such blasphemie But Cardinall Cusanus neuer writ any such booke Ergo there is no such blasphemie I denie the consequence of the proposition though Master B. C. would insinuate by the question and answere That there had béene no other proofe to iustifie my accusation but that of the Cardinals saying But where is this blasphemie conteined In a Booke as he telleth vs of Cardinall Cusanus which is intituled De Authoritate c. Of the Authoritie c. What In that booke onely And not also in diuers other places and authors Why are all those omitted Why is this one singled out of the heard Surely because this seemed likely to admit some cauill they were out of daunger But is it a iust difference whether the blasphemie be in the Title of the Booke or in the booke it selfe For albeit it were not in the title of the booke as both Bishop Iewell and Doctor Downam affirme it is yet it is in the booke of his Epistles as I haue shewed in the Preface And to conuince euidently this blasphemie of the Cardinals I will shew once againe The Blasphemie mainteined is that they were to receiue the Communion in both kindes according to the Scriptures against which the Cardinall opposeth himselfe in diuers places of his Epistles and for the iustifying of his assertion he vrgeth these words as I haue set them downe in the Preface It is no maruaile saith he though the practise of the Church Nicola Cusa ad Bohem Epist 7 expound the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way For the vnderstanding or sense of the Scriptures runneth with the practise and that sense agreeing with the practise is the quickning spirit And a litle after he concludes And therefore the Scriptures follow the Church but contrariwise the Church followeth not the Scriptures Now that which precedes in authoritie is aboue that which followes and so the Church by their diuinity is auouched to bee aboue the Scriptures And if the Church follow not the Scriptures it is euident if God and his word be both one That he that is not with the Scripture is against it And so the matter of the Epistle is all one with that title of the authoritie of the Church and Councel aboue and against the Scriptures though the Epistle it selfe be not so intituled And that you may know this opinion or blasphemie is not peculiar to the Cardinall or to one Papist onely Eckius in his Enchiridion of the authoritie of the Church Answ the third hath set down that this position The Scripture is greater then the authoritie of the Church is to bee reputed amongst hereticall assertions and that the contrary proposition is Catholique And this blasphemie of theirs is so generall that you shall find this sentence often inserted in the Common Law The Church is aboue the Scriptures The other place of the Cardinals there noted is this This is the iudgement saith he of all them that thinke rightly that they found the authoritie Ad Bohem. Epist 2. and vnderstanding of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Church and not contrariwise lay the foundation of the Church in the authoritie of the Scriptures Now if this bee sound diuinitie then may your proud Clergie assume vnto themselues to bee Lords of the Scriptures For how directly so euer the Scriptures be against them as in this instance of the communion to be had in both kinds it is most directly they may giue it what sense they list yea expound it to day after one fashion and to morrow after another as shall please the Pope and his Clergie which can no way agree with the spirit of God who is alwayes one and the same And if this conuince not the Cardinals blasphemie See the 3. Epistle of the same booke pag. 838. where hee saith When the Church chaungeth her iudgement God also chaungeth his But admit I had failed in this proofe yet had the other testimonies bene sufficient to approoue the truth of my accusation if these and such like may iustly be tearmed blasphemies a Syluest Prier cont Lutheri conclusiones de potest Pap. That indulgences are warranted vnto vs not by the authoritie of the Scriptures but by the authoritie of the Church and Pope of Rome which is greater b Dist 40. C. Si Papa That they rather desire the ancient institution of Christian Religion from the Pope then from the holy Scripture c Eckius de Eccles That the Scripture is not authenticall but by the authoritie of the Church d Henric. Magist Sacr Paâ—atii Romae ad legat Bohem sub Felice pap 1447. That the Pope may change the holy Gospell c. e Vid. Kempnit exam part 1. pag. 47. That the Scripture without the authority of the church is of no better worth then Esopes Fables And because I will bee as charitable to Master B. C. and as full of good wishes though I haue no hope of his conuersion as he is to me I could wish that he would not imploy his time so badly as to colour or iustifie such open and palpable blasphemie And surely would such as read both Popish and Protestants bookes Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no would not the Popish Priests prohibite the reading of our bookes would the Papists therin hold any indifferencie it were not possible that they could be so sedused with Popery B. C. Sect. 3. IN his fourth page thus he writeth Yea Arias Montanus a chiefe Papist in his Hebrew Bible writeth in the forefront and principall leafe of the booke There are addded saith he in this edition the bookes written in Greeke which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrews reckneth amongst the Apocrypha The true sense of Arias Montanus words is corrupted either by Master Vdall or some other from whom he had them by foysting in diuers of their owne That learned man in the edition of the Hebrew Bible Arituerplae ex officinâ— Christoph Plaut 1584. with the Latin interlineall interpretation in the Title page saith There are adioyned to this edition the bookes written in Greeke which are called Apocrypha Hee saith not they bee Apocrypha but that they are so called by some that is the Iewes who exclude them from their Hebrew Canon which he had there set foorth That other addition viz. which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes reckoneth amongst the Apocrypha vpon which the force of his charge dependeth are not in Arias Montanus where Master Vdall had them himselfe best knoweth T. V. IT is true that in the fourth page I haue shewed how the Papists dissent from the Fathers both auncient and moderne The reason there may thus be deduced That Church which dissents from the Fathers both antient
and moderne touching the Canonicall and Apocryphall Scriptures cannot truely boast of their agreement with them in all points But the Popish Church dissents from the Fathers both ancient and moderne touching the Canonicall and Apocryphall Scriptures Ergo the Popish Church cannot truely boast of their agreement with them in all points The Maior is plaine in it selfe and the Minor is proued by these testimonies (a) Hier. in prol galea epist ad Pauli et in praefa lib. Reg. et in praefa prolo Salom. S. Hierom (b) Ruf. in his expo vpon the Creede Rufinus (c) Cyril of Hieru in the 4. of his Catachis Cyrill of Hierusalem (d) Athan. in Synop. Salu. Sempit Athanasius (e) Nazianz. in carminib Nazianzen (f) Epipha de mensu et pond Epiphanius (g) Cypr. vpon the Creede Cyprian (h) Damas 49. Damascenus (i) Hugo de Sanct. vict de Sac. in prolog lib. 1. cap. 7. Hugo de Sanct. victor (k) Radul in Leuit. lib. 14. cap. 1. Radulphus (l) Lyr. in pro. in lib. Apoc. Lyra (m) Hugo Car. in pr. Iosua Hugo Cardinalis And (n) Arias in his Hebrewe Bible Arias Montanus Against which Master B. C. reasoneth thus If Arius Montanus be corrupted by M. Vdall or some other from whom hee had them by foysting in words of their owne vpon which the force of the charge dependeth then is Master Vdall or some other from whence he had them proued to be corrupters and those Scriptures which wee defend to be Canonicall are not conuinced to be Apocryphall But the Antecedent is true Ergo the Consequent I denie the consequence of the proposition because if this place had bene misalleaged yet had that which I intended bene sufficiently conuinced by the testimonies of the other fathers and writers which I alleaged And is not this a substantiall argument for such a disputant as Master B. C. would bee presumed to bee by his many and seuerall Coniurings Adiurings Prefat Sect. 18. of his booke and exorcismes of M. Bell to disputation But if heerein the vntruth and corruption be iustly returned vpon himselfe with what countenance will hee looke vpon his followers when it may happily come to their knowledge That he that is the Counter challenger common taxer of others shall be found guiltie of that crime which he obiects to others Would God that lay Papists would make tryall of their teachers sinceritie whereof they brag so much by accusing others But to cleare my selfe from this corruption let the Reader see the same Hebrewe Bible which is noted by Master B. C. 1584. and he shall find the words as I haue alleaged them truely deliuered which for his better satisfaction I will set downe in Latin least hee except against the translation The words be these Accesserunt huic aeditioni libri Graecè Scripti quos Ecclesia orthodoxa Hebraeorum Canonem secuta inter Apocryphos recenset There are added saith hee to this edition the bookes written in Greeke which the Catholike Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes receiueth amongst the Apocrypha Thus you see I haue proued that whereon you confesse the force of my charge dependeth and therefore by your owne confession those Scriptures which the Protestants reiect are approued to be Apocrypha But for that I am a lay Gentleman and Master B. C. A student in Diuinitie I may not vsurpe that speech of his and tell him That if he looked into the originals hee could not retaile the vntrueth of such grosse Merchants B. C. Sect. 4. IN the fift page he writeth thus The Councell of Laodicea assured by a generall Councell of Trullo did set downe the same Canon of the Scriptures which both the old Church had Can. 59. our Church holdeth and commaundeth Ne aliqui c. That none besides bee read and receiued into authoritie How many things of note are comprised in these fewe lines against Master Vdall First he seemeth greatly to reuerence these two Councels which yet is but a coppy of his countenance to delude the ignorant Reader for I doe not thinke that hee will stand either to the one or other though content he is to presse vs with their authoritie For example the Councell of Laodicea Can. 48. Can. 50. commandeth Crisme to bee receiued after Baptisme and that the fast of lent be obserued neither of which I am sure pleaseth Master Vdall Likewise the Councell of Constantinople holden in Trullo alloweth of images and their veneration when it calleth them imagines venerabiles venerable images which I make no doubt nothing pleaseth his tast Can. 82. Can 6. Can. 58. The same Councell forbiddeth Bishops Priests Deacons and Subdeacons to marry wiues after taking of Orders and commaundeth Bishops not to dwell with their wiues which they married before they entred into the higher Orders of the Clergy which seueritie of theirs must vtterly dislike him as being in his opinion contrary to the word of God T. V. IT is true that in the fift page I haue alleaged the Councell of Laodicea allowed by a generall Councell of Constantinople in Trullo for the proofe of that Canon of the Scriptures which is in question betweene the Papists and vs The force of my reason there may be thus deduced The Canon of the Scriptures which is set downe by a particular Councell allowed by a generall Councell is to be held as good and sufficient But the Canon of the Scriptures approoued by the Church of England is set downe by a particular Councell allowed by a generall Councell Ergo the Canon of the Scriptures approued by the Church of England is to bee held as good and sufficient The Maior is prooued by all those Papists that preferre the Councell before the Pope for till late dayes there was no controuersie hereof The Minor is proued by the words of the Councell set downe by me as M. B.C. relates them Wherin many things of note as he saith are comprised against mee which notes of his I will handle particularly The force of his reason in this Section lies thus If the Councell of Laodicea and the generall Councell of Constantinople in Trullo doe hold diuers thinges as Chrysme and that Priestes should not marry after ordination c. which Master Vdal dislikes then is it but a coppie of Master Vdals countenance to delude the ignorant to séeme to reuerence those Councels by pressing vs with their authoritie But the antecedent is true Ergo the consequent If I would trifle as Master B. C. doth I could tell him that it followeth in the same 6. Canon that if those which will he of the Clergie will marry before ordination they may And in the 13. Canon that they may not bee separated from their wiues nor depriued of the vse of them and that those which vnder pretext of pietie expell their wiues are to be excommunicated all which I am sure pleaseth not Master B.
A BRIEFE REPLIE OF THOMAS VDALL GENT. To a short MEMORANDVM or shew of Answere against his Booke Intituled A briefe View of the weake Grounds of Poperie by B. C. student in Diuinitie Chrysost in Math. Hom. 19. Qui mendax est neminem putat verum dicere He that is a lyer thinks no man speakes truth Leo Epist 83. ad Palaestinos Ecclesiae nomine armamini et contra Ecclesiam dimicatis You arme your selues with the name of the Church and yet ye fight against the Church LONDON Printed by W. S. for Samuel Macham and are to be sold in Pauls Church yard at the signe of the Bul-head 109. To the Christian Reader GOod Reader It is now more then two yeeres since I published for some speciall respects A little Booke intituled A briefe view of the weake grounds of Poperie Of late there came to my hands A refutation of Master Bels Treatise Intituled the triall of the new Religion and a short view of Thomas Rogers vntrueths with a short Memorandum for T. V. otherwise called Thomas Vdall by one B.C. Student in Diuinitie as he stileth himselfe wherein he presents me with A short sample of such fowle flawes as are in my Booke as he suggesteth VVhich subiect hee minds heereafter to prosecute with a more full hand If his mind chaunge not Or that the happie newes of my Conuersion crosse not his designements Whereof hee seemes so confident that in two places of the three last leaues of his Preface which is all that concernes me in that Tract hee boldly affirmes that hee sees no cause to dispaire of If true zeale of trueth and sauing my soule haue set me a worke Which two principall motiues with a feruent desire I had to withdraw some of my best friends from that Egyptian darkenesse of Popish superstion which to Gods glory is since effected I doe ingenuously confesse to haue bene the sole and only cause of that small Tract But I cannot but maruell vpon what ground or hope this confidence of my conuersion should be so presumed vnlesse it be to gull some of his Popish dependantes with the hope thereof since in this little he hath deliuered hee hath onely excepted against fiue particulars which he hath selected out of seuerall places in my booke And yet if they were all graunted It nothing impeacheth the summe and substance therof but that it may be notwithstanding sound and good inough vnlesse in Master B. C. Logique these be good inferences T. V. hath mistaken or misalleadged some fewe authorities in his Booke Ergo he hath not shewed the weakenesse of the grounds of Popish Religion Ergo the Papists are wrongfully charged with blasphemie Ergo the Scriptures defended by the Papists are not conuinced to bee Apocripha c. But it seemes by Master B. C. proceeding both with mee and others That such is the simplicitie of the Popish vulgar Catholiques that he assures himselfe if he can but conuince a few places among many to be mistaken or misalleaged it is sufficient to perswade them that the whole booke is nothing but lies and vntrueths Albeit they must be very simple That seeing tenne or twelue witnesses produced eight or ten whereof prooue the point directly though two of them faile will not iudge the truth sufficiently approoued especially if the witnesses be without exception And surely he must needes be very well perswaded either of his owne worthinesse or of my insufficiency that doth thus presume of my conuersion without iustifying his own grounds or laying open the weakenesse of those Engines of mine as he phraseth them wherewith he saith I labour so much to vndermine the impregnable grounds of the Catholique Church which grounds are so sufficiently battered and beaten downe by the answere of that learned and Reuerent Minister Master VVootton to A. D. Treatise of faith That it rests not in the power of any Popish Procter euer to repaire them But that I may not hold thee too long in so short a subiect I will truely acquaint thee with such substantiall stuffe as Master B. C. hath gathered as he saith Either for my spirituall profite or the commoditie of other or the common good of both which shall be set downe verbatim with peculiar answere to euery Section in hope that when hee prosecuteth the laying open of the maladies of my Treatise as he tearmeth them I shall receiue the same equitie from him that it may appeare what hee answereth and what hee omits And for the better vnmasking of that which he hath excepted against in my Booke I will endeuour first to deduce my owne reasons and then his answeres thereunto into true forme of Sillogisme That it may be euident to the iudicious that if all wherewith I am charged were granted yet is the summe and substance of my Booke vntouched or vnanswered And may not I pray you his seduced fellowes glory to haue gotten so stout a Champion that can with such dexteritie disspatch three bookes at once And is not this sufficient to discredite all T. V. Booke No doubt it will stay the languishing desire of many Papists that there is now some hope the grounds of their Religion shall be particularly defended and Tho. Vdals Booke wholly confuted though Doctor Norris had it sixe monethes before it was printed and said nothing and that it hath beene now two yeeres since it was published and onely fiue poore places of no consequence at all for the substance pretended to be falsified But I had well hoped that Master B. C. professing himselfe a student in Diuinitie And an accepter of Master Bels Challenge with so many and seuerall coniurations wherewith he vrgeth presseth and prouoketh him to disputation Sect. 18. of B.C. Preface hauing seene in the Preface of my Booke with what earnestnesse I had requested and by so many seuerall reasons vrged to haue had my Booke answered I had well hoped I say That Master B. C. would euen for the merit of winning soules And for the greater glory of that Catholique trueth whereof he so much boasteth haue made a full and perfite answere to the same And not haue wronged the learning and reputation we might haue conceiued him to haue had with such triuiall exceptions But no doubt this is sufficient to perswade some of his credulous crew that the booke is answered And yet if I should charge him with the like exceptions as Master Bell doth and tell him It stands not with the credite of the Catholique cause or Romish Diuines to answere by patches and peeces I must looke to receiue the same answer he hath made to him in this his Preface to vs all That he hopes the good Reader will consider that as he was not bound to meddle with the Pamphlet at all So was it at his choice to leaue what he listed and take what hee pleased especially making open profession of that course An answere no doubt worthy of such a refuter since children where they cannot read skip
C. chaste eares But could any man that professeth himselfe a student in Diuinitie reason thus impertinently if hee were not perswaded that any thing would passe for currant amongst the seduced Papists and can any man be ignorant that hath read my booke that the whole scope and drift thereof tends to shew the weakenesse of the Grounds of Poperie of which that of Councels is helde a chiefe one with them For howsoeuer the controuersie amongst themselues Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope Or whether Councels should be confirmed by the Pope or not confirmed be not yet determined yet we professe to reuerence Councels no farther then their doctrine is consonant and agréeable to the Scriptures according to the opinion of that famous clarke Saint Austin who writing against Maximinus long before this new Popery was hatched saith thus Cont. Max. lib. 3. ca. 14. But neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councell of Ariminum for a preiudice for neither am I tyed to the authoritie of this nor you to the authoritie of that but let matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason contend by the authoritie of the Scriptures not proper to any but indifferent witnesses to both partes You sée heare and may in diuers other places of my booke what opinion S. Austin had of Councels that would not haue his aduersary tied to the authoritie of the great Councell of Nice comparable to which no Councell was euer yet since the Apostles But if I had failed in this proofe yet was the matter there intended sufficiently proued by other testimonies which you acknowledge to bee your owne grounds Greg. Tom. 3. pag. 291. Neither was it vrged to delude the ignorant as you either ignorantly or maliciously affirme but rather to shew how you varie both from Fathers and Councels when they make against you B. C. Sect. 5. SEcondly this Councell of Constantinople in Trullo is of no authoritie as in which the Pope neither by himselfe nor by his Legates was present Lib. de sex aet atibus In Iustiniano and Pope Sergius who then liued did disanull that erraticall Synode as venerable Bede writeth with what conscience then can Master Vdall call that a generall Councell and vrge the authoritie therof as authenticall when as not onely we but also the Protestants vtterly reiect it albeit in this point we for our parts see no cause to refuse it Thirdly true it is not that the Councell of Laodicea setteth downe the same Canon of the Scriptures which the Church of England alloweth for the Apocalypse or Reuelation of Saint Iohn is omitted Fourthly this Councell forbiddeth the reading of others not there expressed yet the Church of England readeth the histories of Iudith and Tobie in their publike assemblies which Master Vdall I suppose will hardly shew how it agreeth with the decree of that Councel Fiftly he hath corrupted be Councell by adding somewhat of his owne for these words and receiued into authoritie bee not there found Would any euer haue thought that so many things could haue bene noted against him in so small a sentence If Master Vdall hath viewed the originall hardly can he bee excused from malice if hee hath not let him beshrew their fingers vpon whose credite hee committed them to writing T. V. IN this fift Section Master B. C. hath shewed great store of smal knowledge by telling how many things of note Are comprised in these few lines against me For if these notes conuince him of much weaknesse to handle controuersies then may his Popish dependants wish that he had answered with silence as Doctor Norris did before him least his too much haste further his owne disgrace if I may returne his owne words But let vs examine the particulars In the first note the reason lies thus All Councels that are of authoritie must haue the Pope or his Legates present But this Councell had neither the Pope nor his Legates present Ergo this Councell is of no authoritie I denie the Maior for I hope Master B. C. being so great a disputant will not still begge the question And we may well hold this position A noueltie of Poperie vnlesse Master B. C. can shew vs which neuer any yet did some testimonies of the ancient Fathers that are not counterfeit that euer wrote or taught this doctrine Besides master B. C. cannot be ignorant * Sciendū est quod in vniuersalibus octo concilijs vbi imperatores interfuerunt non Papa semper inuenio imperatores iudices suos cum senatu primatum habuisse officium praesidentiae per interlocutiones ex consensu Synodi conclusiones iudicium fecisse non inuenitur instantia in octo concilijs preterquam in tertia actione concilij Chalcedonensis Cusan lib. 3. cap. 16. de concord Cathol Cap. 19. That the auncient and first Councels were neither called by the Pope nor hee either by himselfe or his Legates President therein And in the second generall Councell holden at Constantinople Bellarmine confesseth that the Pope was neither there in person nor by his Legates and also hee saith De cont li. 2. ca. 14. that Petrus de Aliaco and Cusanus both Cardinals Gerson Almain Antoninus Tostatus and many others held That the Councell is aboue the Pope And the same hath aso beene decreed in the thrée generall Councels of Pisa Constance and Basill and as yet the contrary was neuer decreed as Doctor Whittaker sheweth in the fift question of his Tract of Councels and as Bellarmine confesseth the question remaineth amongst the Catholiques to this day With what Schollership or conscience then can Master B. C. conclude the Councell to be of no authoritie because neither the Pope nor his Legates were present And if Master B. C. be so well read in controuersies as it should seeme then can he not chuse but speake against his owne knowledge for he cannot be ignorant that many Popes haue cited these Canons since it appeares euen by our aduersaries that these Canons were in times past held for the Canons of the sixt Synode And Gratiane often cites thē in his decrees alwayes cals them Canons of the sixt Synode And in Gratian dist 16. cap. 6. Adrian the Pope saith Sextam Synodum sanctam cum omnibus suis Canonibus recipio I receiue the sixt holy Synode with all the Canons thereof And though Canus say That this Councell made no Canons yet the same is openly refuted in Gratian. And Innocent in his Tract of the age and qualitie of those to be ordered citeth one of these Canons cals it a Canon of the 6. Synode And the same also Gratian citeth dist 3 2. cap. Si quis And Pope Adrian the first in the Epistle to Tarasius which is extant in the second action of the seuenth Synode openly confirmes it And though Bellarmine answere that Adrian onely reciteth the sentence of Tarasius and refels it
not because it was profitable to the question then handled yet doth Pope Adrian vse these words In sextae Sinodi Diuine legaliter praedicatis Canonibus In the Canons of the sixt Synode holily and lawfully published And the Popes Legates demanded of the sacred Synode whether they receiued the letters of the most holy Pope or no The sacred Synode answered we folow receiue approue them And what other thing is this but to confirme the Canons of the sixt Synode Neither is it any strange matter for one Pope and a Councell to condemne the decrees of another Pope and Councell As I haue shewed in my booke pag. 58. 59. Of Pope Stephan and Pope Iohn And thus much for the first note The reason of his second note lies thus If Venerable Bede saith that the Pope did disanull that erraticall Synode then cannot Master Vdall with conscience call it a generall Councell and vrge the authoritie thereof as authenticall But the antecedent is true Ergo the consequent I denie the consequence and demaund of Master B. C. why I may not with as good a conscience as Bellarmine and diuers Popes and Papists before alleaged call it a generall Councell for Bellarmine reckoneth this Councell amongst those generall Councels which are partly approued partly reproued And Caranza that gathered the summe of the Councels sheweth immediatly before the Canons that nine Canons of the same Synode were reiected as bastards and that these 102. Canons were not as yet forsaken and cast off And though many hold that this Councell made no Canons yet a Councell made them with credit of a generall Councell Prefat Synod Trul. ad Iustini And the next generall Councell did confirme them Conc. Nic. 2. cap. 1. And Caranza sheweth that the Canons were made in supplie of the other two Councels that wanted and therefore it was not numbred as the sixt but called Quini Sexta because it supplied that which was wanting to the fift and sixt And yet hee cals it a generall Councell Now could any man of M. B. C. learning vpon Bedes authoritie vrge such consequents against all these proofes before alleaged And for my vrging it as Authent'call I haue shewed before how farre we receiue the authority of generall Councels and the reason why I vrged it But I pray you master B.C. is this a Maxime in your Diuinitie That whatsoeuer any ancient Father hath said is to be beleeued Surely Saint Austin was of another mind For he challengeth to himselfe a libertie to iudge In quorumlibet hominum scriptis De natur gra contr pelag ca. 61. Ibidem In the writings of all men whatsoeuer And addeth this reason because I doe consent without any stay to the Canonicall Scriptures onely Cont. Faust lib. 11. ca. 5. The rest must be read as hee teacheth Non cum credendi necessitate sed cum iudicandi libertate Not with a necessitie to beleeue them but with a libertie to iudge them Epist 48. de Peccat Merit Remiss l. 1. c. 22 And must bee distinguished from the authoritie of the Canon For that the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures can neither deceiue nor be deceiued Cont. Crescon lib. 2. cap. 3. And by those bookes we may freely iudge of other writings both of Christians and Infidels And thus much for the second note The reason of the third note lies thus If the Reuelation of Saint Iohn be omitted by the Councell of Laodicea then doth not the Councell set downe the same Canon of the Scriptures which the Church of England alloweth But the antecedent is true Ergo the consequent Master B. C. would faine finde a knot in a rush so much doth it please his cauelling carping spirit For if he had obserued in the third page of my Booke that the aunswere which I there set downe in the name of the Protestant toucheth onely the bookes which are in question beeweene vs hee might haue found that the proofe I there brought was touching the Hebrew Canon of the old Testament Whereof I might truely say that this Councell setteth downe the same Canon of the Scriptures which both the old Church had and our Church doth hold for reproofe whereof the omitting of the Reuelation by the Councell of Laodicea which was not in question was impertinently alleaged by you And thus much for the third note The reason of his fourth note lies thus If the Councell forbid the reading of other bookes not there expressed then Master Vdall can hardly show how the Church of England reading the history of Iudith and Tobie in their publique assemblies agreeth with the decree of that Councell But the antecedent is true Ergo the consequent Is not this substantiall stuffe and worthy of Master B. C. learning What if I could not shew this What inconuenience were it to the Church of England or what aduantageth it my aduersary Doth any of vs acknowledge that the Church of England is bound to follow the decrees of councels in all things Blush then for shame is reason thus idely yet wee say with S. Hierom That the Church readeth those bookes See the 4. page of my booke Hierom. praefa in lib. Solom Rufin in expos Symb. apud Cyprian but receiueth them not amongst the Canonicall Scriptures And that they are read for instruction of manners but not alleaged for confirmation of doctrine But it seemes Master B. C. was much pressed by some of his followers to answere my booke And therfore to giue them some satisfaction he would say somewhat though it were to little purpose And thus much for the fourth note The reason of his fift note lieth thus If these words And receiued into authoritie be not to be found in that Councel then M. Vdall hath corrupted the Councell by adding some thing of his owne But the Antecedent is true Ergo the consequent To this I answere that those words are found in the Councell and therefore Master Vdall is slaunderously charged by Master B. C. The words are these Quae autem oporteat legi in authoritatē recipi hec sunt Those Bookes which must be read and receiued into authoritie are these From which thus I dispute those bookes which are to bee receiued into authoritie are those set downe by the Councell But the bookes we call Apocrypha are not there set downe by the Councell Ergo those bookes which we call Apocrypha are not to be receiued into authoritie Now that I may pay M B. C. in his owne coine how many of these his worthie notes may be returned him for hauing neither truth nor Schollership as the vsing that silly shift of wrangling Sophisters to take that for graunted which hee should haue proued The weakenesse of his consequence the charging me to vse the testimonie of the Councell for the Canon of the New Testament which he knew I applied to the old Testament the vrging of impertinent reasons without end or purpose and the charging me with
sufficiently performed referre you to some of the Authors of our side where the same reasons haue beene with no lesse sufficiency handled and replied too assuring my selfe that neither any of you haue or can make any obiection against the doctrine we professe that hath not bene alreadie obiected and likewise by vs aunswered And if any can shew me the contrary I will be beholding to him neither will I shut mine eyes against the truth May you not now blush M. B. C. to affirme that this my answere giues no satisfaction And hauing read this to auouch That you finde nothing brought by M. Vdall to infringe his solutions When neither the Author of that Catholike letter then as I haue said nor your self now durst as it may be presumed instance an answere out of Bellarmine to any one particular obiection of mine And yet if you had done this it had bene but expence and losse both of labour and time For as oft as you produce any aunswere of the writers of your side against vs so oft must I bring the replie of the learned of our side in discharge thereof and so according to the fashion of this age fill the world full of bookes touching these controuersies which haue bene alreadie handled with much more sufficiency then either of vs can for I am very confident that neither you nor I can bring any thing touching this subiect that hath not bene already sayd howsoeuer we may giue it a new glosse thereby to make it seeme to bee our owne And since you wish me if I be willing to proceede whereto I am both ready and willing to absteine from all byting and bitter words that the quarrell of God may not be prosecuted like the quarrels of this world I must likewise wish for my own Apology that you had obserued this your owne rule to me others for then had I not failed in satisfying this so good a desire And for the better effecting thereof hereafter and for the sounder tryall of those impregnable grounds whereof you are so confident I earnestly request and coniure you by the loue of truth that wee may both appeare at the iudiciall seat of a true Syllogisme which we may doe without any safe conduct where the substance of the plea betweene vs shall be whether there be any certaintie in the grounds of Poperie And for that it seemeth by your facilitie in aunswering three bookes at once for so no doubt your Popish followers will conceiue of it That you are so conuersant in controuersies That a man cannot faile to receiue satisfaction at your hands I beseech you that this my request may be performed Logically by Syllogismes Theologically by Scripture proofe So shall we auoide all impertinent discoursing and trifling all gibing and reproching and so charitably without bitternesse or indeuor to disgrace each other finish this combate to Gods glorie and to the satisfaction of many for if your grounds can be iustified all controuersies will quickely bee ended But I haue no great hope to draw you to this course for you know too wel That the grounds of your Religion cannot abide the touchstone of this triall though it would hee great glorie to you but to vndertake that which none of the learned of your side could euer yet be drawen too though I am perswaded your Popish dependants will assure themselues you will not refuse so sure and learned a triall But to conclude with the same charitie to you which you seeme to shew to me I will pray vnto my God that he will enlighten your heart and vnderstanding with the spirit of his wisedome and grace that you may discerne the truth of Christian Religion to the glory of God and your owne Saluation Tho. Vdall FINIS Good Reader let me request thy fauourable censure touching the faults committed by the Printer which escaped by reason of my absence at the time of the printing and partly by the difficulty of the hand in the Coppie all which I pray thee first take notice of as they are set downe here following and then read in their due places as they are heere amended and corrected Faults escaped IN the Preface pag. 3. line last for fellowes read followers p. 5. l. 13. there for Questions r. quotations l. 17. for them r. then l. 18. for them r. thee Pag. 4. l. 16. for I haue yet made you r. you haue yet made p. 6 l. 12. for may be borrowed r. may be he borrowed p. 8. l. 14. for But is it a iust difference r. But it is a nice difference li. 23. for blasphemie maintained is r. Bohemians maintained p. 14. l. 19. for whence r. whom p. 16. l. 4. for receiueth r. reckeneth p. 18. l. 16. after the word Pope adde these wordes who are very many p. 27. l. 27. for I do r. I owe. p. 31. l. 12. for consequence r. consequentes p. 34. l. 10. for receiued r. reiected In the Margent Pag. 8. l. 18. Doct. Downam against Antich l. 5. Sect. 10. omitted p. 11. for Heric Magist r. Heric doctor Magist p. 14. for Salu. sempit r. sacr script for de sar de sacram p. 21. Greg. Tom. 3. p. 291. placed in the margent to no purpose p. 27. this quotation Prefac synod Trul. ad Iustin should be placed 2. lines higher Many of which the carefull reader I hope will easily obserue and pardon