Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	article_n	faith_n	tradition_n	3,058	5	9.0436	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01042	Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A.	Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635.	1627 (1627)	STC 11147; ESTC S102413	101,942	162

not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now ●…lomathes to returne to our poyn●… whence this your ●…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven ●…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to ●…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and perv●…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and beg●…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and no●… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude aga●…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 ●…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… Scho●…Man will not agaynst Na●…re ●…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Th●… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuru●… p●…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI aff●…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam ●…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus ac●…pisset non ali●…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem ver●… Illi ●…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propug●…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura ●…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is

you must answere to these Questions Eubulus By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giue sentence of a Song and Philadelpbus will but let you see Eriphilus that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses but that wee could render you as compact Verses as anie your proper Ballad hath in it Yet let it bee as you desire wee will leaue Sonnets a little and come to Syllogismes Philomathes reade on Philomathes Gladlie Thus then hee beginneth I pray thee Protestant beare with mee To aske thee Questions two or three And if an answere thou canst make More of thy counsell I will take Manie and sundrie Sects appeare Now in the Worlde farre and neare The Protestant the Puritane The Calvinist the Zvvingliane The Brovvnists and the Fam'lie of Loue And manie moe which I can prooue And the Romane Fayth truelie Which you doe call Papistrie All these in verie deede Rehearse all Articles in the Creede And ev'rie one of them sayth That their's is the Catholicke Fayth How should I amongst all these Know the Trueth from feigned Lies For ev'rie one confesse IESU Saying that their Faith is true But this is it that I doe seeke To know the Church Catholicke The Communion or the companie Of bolie Men in vnitie Eubulus This hath beene the Question which in all times perverse and ignorant men haue pretended for them as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth I would bee a Christian but I know not to whom I should cleane Manie Debates are amongst you I know not what Doctrine to choose seeing on both sides they pretende Scripture Answere him This maketh much for vs For if wee did say that our Fayth were grounded vpon naturall reasons thou hadst reason to bee troubled but when wee betake vs to the Scriptures which are playne and true thou mayest easilie discerne If anie man agree with Them hee is a Christian and who so oppugneth Them hee is farre from this Rule This same Chrysostome in 2. ad Thessal 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures what-so-ever thinges are necessarie are manifest in them Agayne the same Chrysostome in Ioann cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vs to GOD and open to vs the knowledge of Him they both make and keepe the Sheepe neyther suffer they Wol●…es to breake in For as a most strong Doore they debarre Heretickes and place the Godlie in suretie Neyther so beeing wee bee willing shall they ever suffer vs to fall away in Errour Now al-be-it I well might for all answere oppose to your Poet these Passages yet lest you complayne Philomathes that I passe him too slenderlie I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question to bee this Amongst so manie diverse Sects all rehearsing the common Creed and each acclayming the Title of the Church hovve and by what Marks we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title Philomathes You haue exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question And I pray you is it not a necessarie Question and worthie of a carefull consideration Eubulus Yea verilie but in proponing where-of and in answering there-to your Questione●… bewrayeth either want of Care or want of Skill or which is worse want of Conscience For if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth as both hee professeth and I confesse hee might why would hee not rather produce them than for malicious vp-making of a number where no number is make them diverse who are but one For everie difference of Opinion maketh not a diverse Sect much lesse doe diverse names of men who disagree in no materiall point Philadelphus You miss-take the matter Eubulus it is not maliciouslie done of him but for Metres sake to make vp his Verses which other-wayes would not haue runne well Eubulus Well this is his least al-be-it even a lourd-Errour But next Philomathes for resolution of his Question if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way so to draw others after him in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations hee might haue taken the onlie sure and infallible Marke from CHRIST His owne Mouth Who as hee is the onelie LORD of the House great Shepheard of the Sheepe and Bridegroome of the Bryde so can Hee best of anie leade vs to know them rightlie Philomathes That must bee of all other the most certaine Note and I long to heare it Eubulus CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke That they know the voyce of the great Shepheard and follow it and that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger for they know it not Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church where the voyce of CHRIST and His voyce onelie is purelie preached and religiouslie received If anie man loue Mee bee will keepe My Word and My Father will loue him and Wee will come to him and will dwell with him Hee that loveth Mee not keepeth not My Wordes c. Philomathes This is most true but the Question remaineth still as doubtfull as before for what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe the Title of the Church they no lesse boldlie affirme that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST so as you haue but cast vs in a new dispute what i●… CHRIST His voyce which his true Sheepe doe heare and by hearing where-of they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde Eubulus Neyther CHRIST nor His Apostles nor the succeeding Orthodox Fathers haue left place to make question heere-of to anie who wilfullie winketh not for Hee hath left vs His holie Scriptures and commandeth to search them for a Witnesse of Him Now the way to know Him and to know His true Church which is his fulnesse must of necessitie bee one More-over that which maketh the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke must make him wise to discerne the true Church also But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke therefore they make him wise to discerne the true Church also So then the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce for In vaine doe men worship sayeth the LORD teaching for Doctrines the Traditions of men And when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce or follow anie other Speaker then Shee looketh aside to the Flockes of his Companions and of a faithfull Citie beginneth to become an Harlor And as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh Egredietur è finibus suis Shee transgresseth her owne Limits Your men Philomathes darken all disputation by deceit of Aequivocations and confounding of distinct Considerations and Cases It is a much different thing to discerne the Church of CHRIST in common from Infidels Forraigners And againe in that communitie of the Church to discerne betwixt the true worshippers and the false betwixt the

true Church and the Synagogue of Satan calling themselues Iewes and yet are not And who for concluding of this would bring the common notes of that hee were a doting Divine and a no lesse ridiculous Logician than hee who for discerning a man from a beast would bring the common properties of a living creature for how-so-ever the common notes of Christians good or bad of Orthodox or Heretickes of CHRIST or Antichrist will distinguish the common bodie in which all these are from Forraigners yet to discerne betwixt the true bodie and the inherent evill betwixt lawfull and adulterous worship betwixt the Bryde and the pretending Whoore both of them in though not both of the bodie there is none other sure note or marke of discretion but the Scriptures onlie When you shall see sayeth Chrysostome vngodlie Heresie which i●… the Armie of Antichrist standing in the holie places of the Church then let them who are in Iudea flee to the Mountainest that is they who are of Christianitie dresse them-selues to the Scriptures because from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie neyther anie other refuge for Christians willing to know the veritie of the Fayth but the divine Scriptures And in that same place Before manie wayes were shewed which was the Church of CHRIST but now no manner of way hut by the Scriptures For sayeth the same Chrysostome or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew if men looke to ought else they shall stumble and perish not vnderstanding which is the true Church and shall fall there-by in the abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holie places of the Church Wee thinke it not equitable sayth Basilius that such custome of speach as hath taken place with them should bee helde for a Law and Canon of right Doctrine for if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine wee might also imitate them heere-in Let vs stand therefore to the decision of Scripture inspyred from GOD and with whome are found heades of Doctrine consonant to the divine Oracles let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them Non oportet sayeth Ireneus quaerere apud alios veritatem cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis that is Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie as in a rich Store-house put together all thinges that belong to Trueth Non haec autilla sayeth Augustine alteri parti suspecta objiciantur sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae that is Let not such things bee objected as are suspected of eyther partie but let the common Armour the Scriptures bee taken I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse Philomathes in making so great a Question how Trueth and the true Church may bee discerned from Lies and hereticall companies bewrayeth evidentlie what vpright affection hee hath eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe or to leade others there-in Philomathes When all that you haue sayde is granted so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe which heare CHRIST His voyce but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures yet the Question remaineth vnsolved For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them And this was not obscurelie implyed in the Question in that all rehearse the common Creede so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you which will rid the Debate Eubulus To this I answere First al-be-it all pretende Scripture yet all pretende not Scripture onlie which both by Scripture and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie I haue prooved in the Case heere questioned to bee the onelie Rule for your Church of Rome joyneth and equalleth with Scripture her owne Canons and Traditions and there-by declareth evidentlie all her worship to bee vaine Hoc nimis doleo sayeth Augustine quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt minus curantur tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit that is I much lament for that manie thinges which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written are little regarded and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions as he is more grievouslie punished who neglecteth those humane Traditions than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation for those small beginnings in comparison which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie at that time not so farre as yet advanced had come to what had beene the measure of his griefe if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie Eriphilus What Eubulus will you make vs therefore to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S because wee heare the voyce of the Church Is not the voyce of the Church CHRIST'S owne voyce sayeth Hee not in Scripture Hee who heareth you heareth Mee and bee who despyseth you despyseth Mee Eubulus Too great heate Eriphilus maketh you to over-reach your selfe and so to stumble both in Logicke and in Divinitie Your Errour in Logicke is that you take that for an Argument which is the verie Poynt in Question All our Dispute is what Companie of so manie Acclaimers is the true Church of CHRIST In this Question proponed to vs by your Poët wee are come thus farre That who heare CHRIST'S voyce and His voyce onlie Wee haue layde also this ground That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce Vpon which ground I challenged your Church as adding to her owne Now here for your defence that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce and that even by Scripture you assume that you are the Church and where the Sheepe are to bee tryed by the voyce which they doe heare you will therefore justifie the voyce because you forsooth doe heare it And by such Logicke as this what may you not conclude You might with more credite tell vs in plaine Tearmes That you will not haue it put in question but that you are the Church than appeare to put that poynt in tryall and incontinent to take it for a Principle which is the verie Poynt controverted Now as this is your fault in Logicke and that exceeding chyldish so in Divinitie you misse and more dangerouslie Because the LORD affirmeth That who heareth the Church heareth Him and who despyseth them despyseth Him if Pastours vnder the pretext of this Power should presume absolutelie to impose on Consciences what they please binding Christians indifferentlie without proving to admit all it were an impudent yea an impious vsurpation For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition That Pastours speake nothing but the wordes of the Great Shepheard For the words of