Creede vppon the knowledge and conformitie of scriptures but vppon the doctrine receiued and approued of the people of God as the Auncient churche yea afore the wrytings of the newe Testament were written had a custome to propone to great and small the beléefe of the Créede afore they would commende to them the holy scriptures as appeareth by christian Antiquities And therfore the beleefe of a Christian dependes not of the woorde written by the Créede but of the woorde reuealed to the people and church of God. Aunswere Touching the firste Article it is moste necessary in teaching the Apostles Creede to a childe or other ignorante persone that therewith also he be instructed in the Doctrine of the Prophetes and Apostles seeing the Créede containes none other matter than this selfe same Doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in termes at least in sense and substance For the second Article they denie that that which is alleaged before is any way contrary to the order established in the churche of Geneua or other church well directed wherin touching the reason taken of the fourme of Baptisme vsed in the saide churches it foloweth not by the woordes and speeches which haue bene alleaged that Caluine woulde shut oute the Créede and seperate it from the writings and Doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles a thing impossible but sheweth euidently that he ment to comprehende it therein when he added this woorde and generally which the Doctoures haue put in their Allegation to comprehende what mighte be ouer and aboue the holy Scriptures after the deduction which he made of the points of the Doctrine comprehended particularely in the saide Créede Touching the other reason that afore there were any Booke of the newe Testament written the Creede was proponed to such as were Catechised it is agréed vnto But it folowes not for al that that it is not founded vppon the woorde and Doctrine which the Apostles preached albeit at that time it was not set downe in wryting and likewise vppon the wrytings of the Prophetes vppon which the Doctrine of the Apostles is grounded For Conclusion the Ministers putte no difference betwéene Goddes woorde preached and written touching the sense Obiection It séemes the Ministers haue not well vnderstande the meaning of the Doctoures For there is no Question to knowe whether the Créede carie conformitie of hymselfe with the Apostolike writings but whether firste we muste vnderstande and beléeue that the Apostles and Prophetes haue set downe by wryting a Doctrine wherewith the sayd Créede dothe conforme and that other wayes a man can not beléeue the saide Créede But to vnfolde it more easily the Question is if it be not possible that a childe being come to the age of discretion or any other may by instructions of the Parentes or others beléeue the Articles contained in the Créede and be not firste instructed by them that there be certaine Apostolike writings whereunto the Articles of the Créede may be conformed And if it be necessary to moue him to beléeue it to knowe this conformitie And to these let the Ministers Aunswer absolutely Aunsvvere Faithe is by hearing and hearing by the woorde of God according to the consent of Iesus Christe who putting the hearing of the woorde afore the Faithe of the same saythe Who heares my woord and beléeues him that hath sent me c. Like as also he commaunded the Apostles to preache first the Gospell to the ende the hearers by the preaching might be disposed and led to Faithe By these reasones to knowe whether the Doctrine that is taughte be the woorde of God it is necessary to beléeue without the which also it is impossible that a man may either haue Faithe or beléeue in God onlesse he be assured that that which is taught him is Gods woorde And for the Question touching the instruction of children at the age of discretion or others whether it be necessary they knowe the woorde afore they beléeue the Aunswere is that it is néedefull And Thomas sayeth that the Faithe of the Articles of the Créede ought to be explicated that is declared which can not be done without knowledge of the woorde Obiection This Aunswere containes frothe of speache withoute any touche of the pointe proponed For there is no doubte that children and others muste not be Catechised and the Articles of the Faithe vnfolded to them by the woorde of God But the Question is to knowe if it be necessary they vnderstande that thys Woorde be wrytten in the Bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles so as wythoute the knowledge of the sayde wrytings they can not knowe nor beléeue the Articles of Faithe contained in the sayde Créede Whereunto the Doctoures pray the Ministers to Aunswere directly either yea or no. And after the aunswere to adde suche reason as they will which if they will not doe the Doctoures are of minde to procéede to an Article after they haue tolde them notwithstanding for conclusion of all that if this knowledge of the scriptures were necessary to the vnderstanding of the Articles of the Créede examining them according to the conformitie of the same Scriptures that it behoueth séeing the foundation is so necessary amōgst the Articles of the Créede to put this I beléeue there be holy scriptures and it is to note that in the said Simbole there is no mention made that there is holy Scripture so that a mā may be a true christian afore he vnderstand there is any christian Doctrine or woorde of God written therefore not necessary for the beléefe and vnderstanding of the Créede to know the woorde of God to be written in which respect the Doctors protest to speake no more of this Article Aunsvvere By collation and view of the Demaundes and Answers it is easie to iudge who offende moste in circumstaunce of woordes either the proponentes or respondentes Touching the second Article the Answere is as before that the knowledge of Gods woord is necessary to beléeue and to be a christian whether it be written or reuealed Touching the declaration that was made the Ministers Answere in their owne respecte not to approue in any sort that any thing be added to the pure woorde of God And they beléeue the Simbol of the Apostles to be no other thing than the pure woord of God which is proposed to vs by his spirite and therefore it should be a contrauention againste his commaundement to adde newe Articles to it mainteining also that if there had bene others necessary to saluation the spirite of God had not bene forgetful For cōclusion albeit there is no expresse mention of holy Scripture made in the Créede yet couertly it is vnderstande therein bicause the churche which can not subsist that it is not founded and builded vpon the grounds of the Prophets and Apostles is proponed there as an Article to beléeue Replie This Answere the Doctors say is impertinent and no more to purpose than
made and contained amongst Christians in Baptisme afore there were any Apostolicall wryting and in Baptisme it was proposed to beléeue the saide Créede afore there was entrie into the wrytings or speache therof in the primitiue Churche wrytings were examined whether they were to be receiued or not and the vnderstanding of the same together if a Doctrine were true or false by this Simboll and rule of Faithe and to imitate or confront it with it as Irenaeus Tertullian and others affirme And though it should happen that a man neuer heard but the Simboll without knowing whether there were holy Scriptures or not yet he might beleeue the said Créede and be a true Christian so that he were not infected with other particulare false opinions And of the contrarie if the beleefe of the Créede depended vppon the knoweledge of the Propheticall or Apostolicall wrytings as to vnderstand and be assured of the conformitie that therein is afore wée beleue it onely wise men and such as were wel studied in writinges who woulde assure them selues of the saide conformitie should be bounde to beleue the Symboll or at the leaste assured of the truthe of the same and so there shoulde be fewe Christians Therefore the beléefe of the Créede dependes not vpon the knowledge of the Scriptures By meane whereof the Doctoures holde by tradition of the Churche gouerned by the holy sprite that the Creede is of the Apostles and that there is no doubte thereof In like sorte by the same tradition we muste geue Faithe to it as a Doctrine of the Apostles not written and yet of equall authoritie with that whiche is in their writings notwithstanding we had no knowledge of other Scriptures The Doctoures are very sory that the other parte hath so muche declined to aunswere pertinently and absolutely to these twoo pointes why they proponed onely to shewe what Faithe and authoritie men oughte to attribute to this Symbol and all other Doctrine receiued by Tradition of the Apostles without Canonical writing whiche might haue bene lefte by them by the same meane and reason that is shewed that the Symboll was geuen to the Christians by the said Apostles without that they put it in writing For ende the Doctours persuade suche as shal reade this conference not to amaze or maruel at so many perplexities declining from the true ende of the said two pointes proponed with request to remember the conferences of S. Augustine with the Donatistes and Pelagians whose fashion resembles the presente manner of the Ministers with whom they conferre laying them selues notwithstanding vpon the iudgemente of suche as shal reade the matter of this disputation Resolution of the Ministers WHo affirme according to the former propositions alwaies mētioned by them also the better to confirme the faithe of the Duches that as S. Cyprian writeth it is incertaine whether the Symbol which beares the name of the Apostles was made composed suche one by them or els drawne and gathered of their Doctrine and also why it is called Symbolum whether it be by reason that euery one of them broughte his parte and portion to it or that it is a marke or certaine signe of Christian Religion as touching whiche Regardes it is a thing indifferente for Saluation as hauing alwayes one equall weighte and authoritie whether the Apostles write it or whether it was faithfully gathered of their writings as were also the Symbols aswel of Niceus as of Athanasius of whom the Church neuer doubted that they conteined not a pure Apostolicall Doctrine as shée hathe well and euidently declared in ordeining that the saide Symboll of Nyceus shoulde be openlye published to the people when they assembled for the Communion the same being in obseruation at this day in the Churche of Rome where this Symboll is readde and sunge euery Sonday in the Temples whiche if it conteined not Apostolicall Doctrine it shoulde impugne the 59. Articles of the Councell of Laodicene by whiche it is forbidden to reade in the Churche any thing of Priuate inuention but onely the Doctrine comprehended in the Canonicall Bookes of the Olde and Newe Testament whose number is there made The Ministers doo further affirme that the reason and principall cause of the Faithe which Christians adde to this Créed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure woord of God and he that teacheth it mainteines also that it is Gods woorde the same appearing by the testimony and writing of S. Paule who after he hath proponed to the Corinthians the Deathe Buriall and Resurrection of Iesus Christe whiche be the principall Articles of the Créede as vpon whiche also our iustification is chiefely founded Addeth this speache that he hathe geuen them that whiche he hathe receiued whiche is that Christe is deade for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and after that he was buried and is risen againe the thirde daye according to the Scriptures Christe him selfe also proposing in like sorte his Deathe and Resurrection to his twoo Disciples alleageth to them the Scriptures for their more assurance saying Oh fonde weake of hart to beleue all things that the Prophets haue pronounced was it not méete the Christ suffred these things and that he entred into his glorie then beginning at Moyses and the other Prophetes he declared to them in all the scriptures the things that were of him selfe In the same chapter appearing to them after his Resurrectiō yea afore the créede was made speaking to them of his death and resurrection for their better assuraunce he laies vnto them the scriptures saying It is so written and it was méete that Christ suffred and rise from death the third day by which wée maie inferre that for the grounde of Faithe and assurance of the Articles of the same there is no better meane than to propone the Scriptures And albeit in the tyme of the Natiuitie of the Churche the Créede was proponed to suche as were Catechised afore the Apostles or Euangelistes had sette downe any thing in writing yet it foloweth not for all that that there were not other scriptures vppon which mighte be founded euery Article of Faithe Whiche to decypher by péecemeale the Article of Creation hathe his fundation vppon the beginning of Genesis The Article of the Almightinesse of God hathe his grounde vppon the 40. of Esaie and many other places of scripture The Article of the Conception of Iesus Christe vppon the vij of Esay For the place of his Natiuitie vppon the v. of Micheas and for the Regarde of the Time vppon the xlix of Genesis and ix of Daniel The Article of his death the Crosse vpon the xxij Psalme xxxv of Esay and ix of Daniel The Article of Resurrection vppon the xvj Psalme the Article of Ascension vppon the xcviij Psalme the Article of the Iudgemente in Daniel xij the Article of his sending the holy ghost in Ioel ij the Article of the Church in Esay 2. and Micheas 4. the Article of Remission of
sinnes in the Psalme 32. and 37. of Ezechiel and the Article of the Resurrection of the fleshe and eternall life in Daniel 12. It maie appeare to euery one by the places here inferred that there were cleare and euidente Scriptures to grounde all the Articles of Faithe afore the Créede was bestowed in writing whiche might and oughte to be exhibited to suche as were Catechised for their assurance in that which was proposed them to beleue Neither is it possible that a man may beleue if first he haue not vnderstand and hearde the woord and that he assure hime self of it and hold it as certaine and more if it were possible than the matters conceiued and comprehended by Mathematicall demonstrations as appeareth by the definition of the Faith when the Apostles calles it Hypostasin and Eleuchon whiche is subsistance of things whiche we sée not The Ministers also saie that to call the Créede a Doctrine not written and in the meane while affirme that the Apostles wrote it is to implie contradiction Neither can it be shewed howe longe it hath bene a doctrine not written nor since when it hath begonne to be written And greatly doo the Ministers greue that they who conferre with them doo not more laboure in the edifying aswell of such as assiste the conference as others to whose viewe and reading the actes may come For where they might handle and decide pointes tending to edifie the ignorante they staie vpon the question of others wherein is no doubt at al The same being no more than to proue a thing already confessed and resolued and lighte a Candle at noone dayes They assure them selues that suche as shall reade the actes of this cōference wil not maruel to sée them decline from the point wherein they haue bene so much required bicause as Christ saithe He that doothe euil fleeth the lighte For conclusion the Ministers proteste to confesse and beleue that the Symbol of the Apostles in euery Article is the pure woorde of God and that in the faithe of the same it behoueth euery faithefull man to stande and perseuer vntill the ende So that for their partes they will in no sorte receiue or approue in their Churches any that denieth or is doubtful of the saide Articles Replie The Doctours wil proue that the Doctrine of the Ministers conteineth pointes contrary to the principall Articles of the Creede As firste against the Article of Goddes Omnipotencie when they say and teach that God cannot make that one Body be in twoo places The seconde againste the Article of Creation wherein they saie that not onely God suffereth that euill and sinne be committed but also dothe it him selfe The thirde sometimes they denie and earst confesse for an Article of Faithe that the Virgyn Mary should remaine a Virgyn after her deliuery The fourthe that Iesus Christe is not descended into Hell but by imagination and not Really Yea moreouer againste the saide Article they saie that Iesus Christe dispaired of his saluation vpon the trée of the Crosse as being troubled in his conscience with feare to be damned with many other errours conteined in this Article Vpon whiche obiections they aduertise the Ministers that they stande ready to aunswere them The fifthe day of disputation being the fiuetenth of Iuly and Munday THe Ministers haue required their requeste before made and now eftsoones reiterated for the spéedie entry of the Doctoures into conference touching the pointes of the Masse to be inregistred to the ende the occasion may be knowne why the Doctours delaie and refuse the saide conference The Doctours not willing to leese time and mindefull withal to folowe the accorde made in the last day of disputation according to the whiche the Ministers oughte to aunswere touching the errors conteined in the doctrine preached by them againste the Articles of the creede as the Doctours haue noted and proposed them to enter immediately into the matter they affirme that the Ministers haue euill alleaged S. Cyprian as to denie that the Créede was of the Apostles For S. Cyprian doubtes not at all neither puttes in doubte as indifferente whether it be of the Apostles or not but saithe expressely that afore they departed from together they made the saide Créede as appeareth in the Preface of his Exposition Further the Doctoures demaund vpon the Article of the Omnipotencie whiche is the fundation of the Supper and the Sacramente why in a confession proponed at Poissie before the King by Beza and after him other Ministers and bestowed in diuerse Bookes is not conteined the article of the Omnipotencie which is the firste and principall Article of Faithe and why they haue made so many different confessions of Faithe taking awaye that they haue putte in the one and of the contrarye adding what they haue omitted in the others And howe this Article of the Trinitie is not expressely in the firste confession 1564. which they confesse albeit moste darkely Aunsvvere It appeares by the actes of the laste dayes conference that the demaunde of the Ministers was in nature the selfe Requeste they presently make whiche is that the pointe of the Masse mighte be firste decided as being the chiefe occasion of the conference And for that they propone touching the Symboll the Ministers neuer doubted nor yet suspecte but that it is a pure Apostolicall Doctrine whiche lies to all mennes view in reading the actes of the saide dayes Disputation where in halfe a dosen places at the leaste they haue alwayes confessed repeated the same The only thing they mainteined to be in dout is whether the Creede was written by the Apostles or not wherein thei can nothing be verefied nor appeare by the Doctors and S. Cyprian him selfe whom the doctours produce giues aduertismente to the Readers in his Preface of the greate varietie that is in the saide Creede bicause diuerse Churches haue added thereunto sundrie Articles He aduertiseth besides that in his Explication he foloweth the order of the Churche of Aquila and expounding also the Article of Descension into Hel whereof the doctors make so great brute he saithe expressely that it is not in the Symboll of the Romaine Churche nor of the Churches of the Easte whereof may be gathered the incertaintie of that whiche is touched before and that there is no Article wherein we maye reasonably doubte if it be of those whiche the Apostles haue written or added by somme Churches or els wée muste saie the Apostles haue written diuerse Créedes Touching the differences whiche the Doctours pretende to be in the confessions of the refourmed Churches imprinted and published in diuerse Temples the Ministers denie to differ one from an other in respect of the sense albeit perhaps some tearmes maie be changed for a more large declaration and where they allege that in some of them the article of Gods almightinesse hathe bene omitted the Ministers denie it requiring the Doctours to produce the exemplarye of the confession wherein they saie it is omitted
in writing in the two firste conferences where was continuall speache to examine the Articles of their confession without making mention of the Masse And where they pretende a seeming and meaning in the Doctours to examine the Catechisme and not the Articles of the Confession the Doctours are contente to proceede in the saide Articles conferring them with the Catechisme séeing they two oughte to accorde together And so they call all the assistantes to witnesse and iudge by whom it standes that the conference is not begonne Touching the change of order whiche the ministers demaund this day it is a late fashion and a new trouble seeing hitherunto they haue kept the place of respondentes deliuered the Articles of their confession to be examined where the Doctors were alwaies arguers of their side not proponed any thing to examination yet are they contente after the said confession be examined that the Ministers propound suche difficulties as they haue againste the Catholike Doctrine whereunto the doctors with Gods grace will make aunswere Demaunde Whether the Ministers beleue that the créede called the Symbole of the Apostles was made by the Apostles and whether they beleue al that is conteined therein Aunswere It is a thing different whether the Apostles them selues being together haue written it euery one bringing to it his sentence as somme hold whether it hathe bene gathered of diuers places of holy writings yet in the reformed Church we beleue euery point to be drawne out of the pure doctrine of the Prophetes Apostles conteined in their writings as if we should say by the importaunce contentes that it is a summe of the doctrine whiche the Apostles preached Demaunde Leauing a part to auoide tediusnes whether it be a thing indifferente to a christian to beleue that a doctrine hathe ben written by the Apostles or not so that it kéepe a conformitie with the matter of the holy writings the demaund is if al doctrine conformed to the said holy writings may take indifferently the title of the Apostles or other authours of the scripture Aunswere We cannot faile in calling it Apostolike doctrine but naming it the writing of the Apostles séemes to giue a sense that it was either written with their handes or spoken of them But be it what maye be wheresoeuer we acknowledge any doctrine taste sauer of the sprite wherwith the holy men of God haue bene moued we wil cal it Propheticall and Apopostolical doctrine Obiection The Demaunde stretcheth not whether the doctrine be Apostolicall in respecte of suche conformitie but whether by that reason it mighte be attributed to the Apostles and of equall authoritie with the writings wherewith it is conformed bicause it procéedes of a selfe same sprite as the aunswere saithe Aunsvvere The aunswere is already made whiche is that such writing conteines Apostolical doctrine in what sense it maye be termed to be of the Apostles Obiection The aunswere vnder correction apperteines nothing at al to the demaunde for the question is not whether for the conformitie it maie be accompted Apostolical But whether in regarde of this conformitie it maie be attributed to the Apostles and beare the title and name of the Apostles with equal authoritie to the proper writings of the Apostles Aunswere The first demaund was if the créede was made of the Apostles whereunto a sufficient aunswere was made After which it is lawfull to fashion a second demaund which differeth from that Obiection The seconde dependes vpon the first which also is made and whether it be satisfied in aunswere or not let the Readers discerne and iudge Aunswere To depende vpon it is not therefore the same Demaunde Whether they approue the said Créede only bicause they knowe it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles or whether there be any other thing that induceth them to beleue it Aunswere That not only it is conformable but euen the doctrine it selfe for which cause they beleue and approue it Demaunde Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but in respect he knoweth it to be the selfe writing or haue conformitie with the writings of the Apostles as is saide Aunswere The chefe cause that may moue him that beleues it to beleue it in déede is the knowledge whiche we haue spoken of Demaunde Notwithstanding this be the principall cause yet wée require to be absolutely aunswered whether there be no other sufficient reason to induce beléefe so that this firste maye be necessarie Aunswere Aswel for the matter of the Créede as euery other thing which we beleue the principall cause is the knowledge wee haue that the same hath ben left vs written or gathered out of the writings of the Prophets Apostles And for our parts we search no other reason than that of our Faithe Obiection Yet vnder correction the Demaunde is not fully aunswered Whiche is to knowe whether to receiue the creede of the Apostles this cause be necessarye to vnderstande the writings of the Apostles and that withoute the same no man either can or oughte receiue it The Doctours praye to be absolutely aunswered either in the one or the other without circuit of woordes And the more simplye to vnfolde and explicate the Demaunde thus it is whether a personne oughte not receiue the Créede of the Apostles but vnder knowledge that it is conformed to the writings of the Apostles Aunsvvere Séeing with the doctrine of S. Paule there is no true faith without knowledge assurance of the woord to beleue it is necessary we know that it is the woorde of God. Demaunde To knowe whether they vnderstande this woorde to be written or not written Aunswere The woorde written and reuealed by the Prophetes and Apostles whiche is the fundation of Christian Faithe Obiection The ministers then mainteine that after the créede be beleued or proponed to beleue it is needefull to be taughte or to teache an other the wrytings of the Apostles and Prophets the same being againste all order euer holden in the Churche and against the contentes in the fourme to administer the Sacramentes in the Churche at Geneua made by Caluine and brought in amongst his woorkes The woordes are these Goe to them that haue charge of the childe that is Baptized séeing there is Question to receiue this childe into the companie of the Christian churche you promisse when he comes to age of discretion to instruct him in the Doctrine receiued and approued of the people of God And after these woordes they bring in the Creede according to the whiche they are willed to procéede in the instruction of the childe in all the Doctrine contained in the holy Scripture of the olde and newe Testament so that afore they propone to beléeue the Creede they persuade not to beleeue that there is any woord of God written nor what it is nor what is there contained as to knowe the conformitie of the Créede with the same They lay not also the foundation of the beléefe of the
month shal we kil them Muttons or Béeffes which may suffice them Or shal we gather all the Fishes of the sea to content them God answered to Moyses the hand of the Lord is it shortned thou shalt sée now whether my woorde wil come to passe or not In like manner as often as we reade in the Scriptures that the multitude or other particular sort fel into infidelitie or distrust of the aide and succors of God we shall finde that ordinarily it moued in respecte they rested vppon the nature and disposition of humaine things and did not comprehende sufficiently the power of God and of the contrary to confirme them we finde that this power was put before their eies wherof we haue héere before produced certaine Examples of Esay and Ierome In the newe Testamente the Virgine séemed to make some doubte of the meane of hir Conception as hauing regarde to the naturall manner of conceiuing For shée sayde howe may this be séeing I know no man But the Aungell Aunswered nothing is impossible to God drawing her by that from the imagination of naturall propreties which is the roote of infidelitie exhorted hir to aspire to the almightinesse of God as being the first stone and rocke wherupon is builded true religion This being considered and so to resolue with the Ministers for this conference we say that by good right gods almightines obteines expressely the first place amongest the Articles of the Apostles Créede as being the same by the which the other Articles of Faith and dooings of God aboue nature are beleued and mainteined against all contradiction and repugnancie of nature or reason that may be pretended or alleaged and without the which neither Article of the Faithe or any dooings of God surpassing nature and conteined in the Scripture can be defended against the malice and deprauation of humaine Sprite which tendes alwayes to infidelitie and disobedience to God and is prompt and suttle from his byrth to depraue and reproche the woord and commaundement of the same by meane whereof wée say that so much the more euery good Christian oughte to enforce himselfe to hold preserue this Article whole without either suffering any exception or to restraine it to our single pleasure or purpose vnder colour of incertaine pretended repugnances of Creatures mouing in the Sprites of men for want of direct vnderstanding comprehending the greatnesse of God for as the Scripture giues to vs alwayes this Omnipotency in generall without any restrainte in regarde of creatures and dooings of God so it teacheth vs that creatures are vnder his obedience as the Clay in the handes of the Potter to receiue such chaunge and forme as he thinks best without that they can say why doo you this to me or why chaunge you me such similitude of speach vse the Prophet Esay Ierome and S. Paule Wée say further that so much lesse ought it to be licenced to men to limit and bound the said power according to the contradictions which they imagyn in their fansies of the nature wisedome or eternall will of God séeing the expresse sentence of the Scripture is that as God can doo more than wée vnderstand so he smiles at such as wil meddle with his nature wisedome eternal wil as if they were his Counsellers and knewe further of his iudgements and ordinaunces than his owne woord dooth pronounce and in the ende all sprites created are constrained with S. Paule to cry out confessing their ignorance of the power wisedome of God and of his dooings Oh depth of Riches of the knowledge wisedome of God Oh that his iudgementes are incomprehensible and his wayes impossible to finde For who is he that hath knowne the intent of the Lord or who hath bene his Counseller Wherewith wée may also note vpon this pointe a godly sentence of S. Augustine in an Epistle of his to Volusianus Wée confesse that God can doo something which in searching wée cannot finde meaning that as God can doo something so albeit in our naturall iudgemente wée thinke it impossible yet let vs hold it possible only the capacity of our sprite is not able to comprehende it Wée say further that by suche licence and meane to exempt from Goddes power at our pleasure vnder colour of certaine impossibilities of nature or repugnancy supposed by our owne iudgement in the nature wisedome or will of God euery one may study to faine the like in all matters of Faith wherein suche things may be easily inuented or disguised And that it be so if all the Heresies be obserued that haue withstād it in euery time from the first Article of the Creede euen to the laste it will appeare that they al haue kept this way and methode to shake euery Article of the Faith as impossible to God considering the impossibility of the facte according to nature and certaine pretended inconueniences against nature wisedome will and glory of god To this effecte also wée apply the twoo firste Bookes of Tertullian whereof the one is of the Incarnation of Iesus Christe and the other of the Resurrection of his Fleshe againste the Marcionistes wherein the Christian Reader shall reade like Argumentes of the saide Marcionistes labouring to exempt the Incarnation of our Sauiour and Resurrection of his Fleshe from the Omnipotency of God. Nowe to conclude this pointe wée speake it to all good Christians that to the ende to adde nothing to the Scriptures whose speache is alwayes of the power of God to his Creatures withoute any lymitation and to the ende to glorifie the infinite power wisedome and eternall will of our Creatour and Redéemer and also not to open the vessell of the secretes of God to euery impudent who of his owne folie will sette Lawes to men but to the power wisedome and eternal wil of God. And lastely to the ende not to bring into the worlde all Heresies onely but also an Atheisme who according to his sense and fansie may and will oppose and gainesay the infinite power of the true liuing and eternall God. Wée affirme eftsoones that it is necessary to beleue confesse and mainteine that our God is the Almighty Lorde without ende to whom as nothing is impossible so euen the least of his woorkes standing daily afore our eies cannot be comprehended And in plaine speache he is no more a Christian nor a faithfull man who restraines or drawes into any lymit the power of God for thereby he reuerseth the maintenaunce of the Faithe which ought to be generall as to the which no exception can be giuen But as the Omnipotency ought to be kepte in his generalitie and perfection so our opinion is that it is not inough to say that God is almighty and hath the vertue to doo any thing as to inferre that it is done for all that our Lorde can doo he hath not yet done nor neuer wil do bicause his power is infinite But the knowledge of this omnipotency serues to confesse magnifie
to pray to God in their beginning as they had desired were not taken awaye meanes for good order established the better to brydle the confusion of popular showtes and voyces as happen ordinarily in the Schooles of Sophisters and people inclyned to cauell Thys spéeche of the Lord Admirall kindled such a sense of reason in the Lorde of Neuers that induced chiefly by the spirite of God and partly by an heroycall instinct of heart laboring in desire to aspire to the direct truth of things hée became a sutor to their Maiesties that by their authoritie and suffraunce the sayde disputation might procéede and be eftsoones restored wherein as he preuayled to the full effect of his request and purpose so after he had ymparted wyth the Lorde Admirall the disposition of the King and Quéene they ioyned in deuise touching the order to be obserued in the sayd conference naming the sayde Lorde of Neuers and the Duke of Buyllon as Presidents of the place wyth certaine numbers of Gentlemen mutuall assistauntes to recorde and witnesse the manner of their procéedings prouyding lastly two Notaries of Parys for eyther side to subsigne and set downe in wryting the true discourse of eyther seuerall parties These condicions thus determined by the Lordes were also receyued of the Doctors Vigor and De sainctes for the Papistes and De spina and Sureau Ministers Assembling according to the appointment the ninth of Iuly at the Lorde of Neuers house where in hys presence and hearing of the reast of the assistants after the Ministers had prayed which the Doctors did shonne as retyring elsewhere till they had done Doctor Vigor vndertooke the first spéeche with protestation that neyther he nor his companion came thyther to enter argument with the Ministers in any néede or meaning to be instructed in pointes of religion and much lesse to impugne in any sort the counsels and specially that of Trent by which they were forbidden to dispute with Heretikes Assuring resolutely for themselues to abyde constantly in the fayth of the Church of Rome onely such was the request of the Lorde of Montpensier who to reclaime his daughter the Lady of Buyllon had procured that conference as they were the rather drawne thyther aswell to satisfie hym as also to declare their holy zeale to séeke and bring agayne to their flock such as were gone astray The Ministers for their partes protested lykewise not to be enforced to conference by any doubt they made in anye article of their confession as knowing the same to consent simplie and fully with the perfite worde of God but rather to strengthen and defende it agaynst the Sophistries of such as séeke to impugne it pretending also to kéepe and establish the sayde vertuous Ladie of Buyllon in that state and holye institution which Gods grace had happily instilled into hir These protestations thus mutually alledged the Ministers looked that the Doctors according to the meaning of the Lorde of Montpensier and desire of his daughter woulde beginne their disputation with the matter of the supper and the Masse albeit vsing the example and pollicy of such as pretending the siege and batterie of a towne beginne to raise their Trenches a farre off so they the better to prepare themselues to decyde and consult in the sayde two poyntes began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the church vpon the which they sought to establishe the certaintie of the articles of fayth and generally of all the holye scripture And so the demaundes and obiections passing from the Doctors and aunswers returned by the Ministers De sainctes began and Despina aunswered as followeth Question Vpon what doe you establishe your religion Aunswere Vpon Gods worde Question What vnderstande or meane you by Gods worde Aunswere The wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doe ye receyue by their wrytinges all the bookes of the Byble as well of the olde as newe Testament gyuing to them all an equall authoritie Aunswere No but according to the instruction of antiquitie we vse distinction betwéene the Canonical and Apocryphall bookes calling such canonicall vpon whose doctrine both faith and all christian religion is founded and the other we name apocryphall as vpon whose authoritie we cannot establishe any article of fayth onely they are proper in respect of their notable sentences to instruct the state of lyfe and maners of christians Question Howe know you that the one are canonicall and the other apocryphall Aunswere By the spirite of God which is a spirite of discretion gyuing lyght to all such to whom it is communicated to make them capable of power to iudge discerne spirituall things and comprehende the truth when it is propounded to them by the testimonie and assuraunce which he kindles in their hearts wherein as we discerne the light and darkenesse by the facultie of the sight that is in our eye euen so being furnished with Gods spirite and guyded by the lyght which he kindles in our hartes may we easily deuyde and knowe the truth from deceyt and generally all other thinges which may contayne falshoode absurditie doubt or difference Question But some may vaunt to haue the spirite of God which haue him not lyke as we finde by the hystories that all the heretikes thought assuredly to haue the truth on their sides studying to authorize their doctrine by the inwarde reuelations which they fayned to receyue of Gods spirite by which may appeare what daunger it were to reappose or commyt the censure of a booke or doctrine to the testimonie of Gods spirite which a priuate man perswades or faynes to haue receyued in his hart Aunswere This perill is easily auoyded by the aduise of the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike as not to settle an indifferent beliefe to al spirites but rather to prooue and examine them diligently afore we admit them and then allow what they propownde wherein the examination which we ought to make in thys case is to consider first the ende of the doctrine that shall be pronounced purpose of any booke presented to vs For if it tende to rayse and establishe the glorie of God it is true according to the woordes of Iesus Christ in Iohn hee that searcheth Gods glorie is true and there is no iniustice in him in this viewe and examination we haue also to consider that if it consent with the proportion and analogie of fayth as Paule sayth it agrées fully with the chiefe groundes of religion Question All men say and may saye as much but for this reason it is an argument insufficient tyll I be warranted by effect and other proofes how I may rest and stay my selfe vppon it Besides this aunswere excéedes the lymites of the proposition as presupposing the scripture to be knowne to be the grounde of religion and the proposition was layde to giue the reason to assure me that the scripture was of God and that we must put a distinction betwéene the bookes of the same Aunswere
It is easie to iudge whether the ende of the doctrine which is propownded stretch to establishe and exalt the honor and glorie of God as if the same mooue exhortations to men to withdrawe whollie their trust from creatures and reappose and lay it altogyther vpon God to haue recourse to hym in their necessities to depende vpon his prouidence in all their transitorie affayres and lastly to prayse hym with thankesgyuing for all the benefits they haue which being presupposed there is no doubt that the doctrine including this purpose and ende is not good and to be receyued touching the obiection that our former aunswere fell from the boundes of the first proposition it séemes not so bicause the first matter propownded tended to knowe what was the grounde of our religion to the which it was aunswered that it was the wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question This aunswere is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptistes yea and to the Deistes who aboue the reast professe to searche the glorie of God and what else the aunswere conteynes and generally all men vsing this spéech coulde not but erre in all the articles of the Créede except the first But to cut of this circumstance of spéeche and returne to the point we thinke it not lawfull to vse a foundation of the scripture afore it be knowne and assured that it is the holye scripture and that there is difference betwéene the bookes of the same and also afore it be manifest that I haue a particuler inspiration of the holye spirite and that such a priuate breathing of the holy ghost be a sufficient ground of religion Aunswere The Deistes or other heretikes can not serue their turne with the sayde aunswere for the confirmation of their errors bicause the Deistes denying Iesus Christ can not glorifie God seing that to glorifie the father it is néedefull first to knowe and glorifie the sonne and euen so the other heretikes who notknowing the truth nor by consequent Iesus Christ whichis the waye the lyfe and the truth muste néedes be ignoraunt of God and howe to glorifie hym And where our aunswere is noted superfluous or to wander indecently we lay our selues to be measured and iudged by the conference of the demaunde and aunswere And touching the last point of the obiection that the reuelation which a priuate man sayth he hath of the spirite of God is to hym as a grounde of religion that is without the sense wordes of our aunswere which stretched onely to laye the foundation of true religion vpon the doctrine of the Prophetes and Apostles of whose truth all the church generally and euerie particuler member of the same are assured by the testimonie and inwarde reuelation of the spirite of God. Question All that is here spoken must be added to the other aunswere afore it be good and it séemes that the aunswere contaynes but matter of mockerie For it is most certaine that when all truth is in the doctrine of one man he is no more wicked or an heretike But we search still the beginning of truth and what it ought to be And touching the replye denying that the particuler reuelation is the ground of religion there is no great difference For if the particuler reuelation be a sufficient grounde for euery one to know that which is of the Apostles and Prophets it is by consequent the foundation of religion as being the grounde to know vpon what euerie particuler man knoweth and sayth his religion is founded Aunswere We framed our aunsweres according to the nature and maner of the demaunds by which appeares no likelihoode of disposition to scoffe or iest séeing that in such a conference as this is where is question to searche the honor and glory of God mockerie could not be without impietie But touching reuelation to be like to the scripture which is the grounde of religion we denie it and affirme them to be things different notwithstanding their coniunction as following one an other according as it is written in Esay Beholde my allyance with them sayth the Lorde my spirite which is in thee the wordes which I haue breathed into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy lippes nor from the mouth of thy seede and so as followeth by which maye be iudged the distinction that the Prophet vseth betwéene the reuelation of the holy spirite and the worde Question I leaue for conclusion of this conference euerye one to iudge of the conueniencie or agréement of the aunsweres and obiections And touching the wordes alledged out of Esay of the vnitie of the worde and holy spirite they be but spéeches without purpose and newe matter neyther ought we to compare the reuelation of euerye particuler man which was the question with that of the Prophet Esay who had the other proofes that the holy ghost spake by him and made demonstration thereof many times Lastly what soeuer is alledged I leaue to the iudgement of euerye christian Aunswere Euen so also we referre to iudgement what hath béene inferred mutuallie of the one other part And touching the place of Esay which we produced there is no question at all of the reuelation of the Prophet nor the spirite that was communicated to hym but onely of the spirite and wordes which God promised to all his people with whome he entred his alliance For the other proofes pretended that the Prophete had of his vocation we make no doubt at all of them onely we protest that to be principall and most assured which he had by the testimonie of Gods spirite as appeareth in the sixt Chapter of his prophecie Question Be it that he spake to his people by the person of Esay yet it followes not but that he spake first to Esay neyther doe I denie that he promised not his spirite to his people meaning to his vniuersall Church not that he would that euery one yea being in thys church might vsurpe or vaunt to haue this spirite promised particulerly And touching the particuler inspiration of Esay it was not founded onely on his fancie and presumption but in the assuraunce which God gaue him in supernaturall woorkes as is witnessed in hys sixt chapter Besides it was not sufficiently grounded to be beléeued as to haue an inspiration if he had not declared it by other effects and prophesies which hapned as belonges to euerie Prophete to doe afore he beléeued But referring all these things as matters fetched from farre and out of the first proposition I leaue the iudgement as before Aunswere There is not one of the church if he be a true member of the same to whome the spirite of God is not communicated according to the testimonie of the Apostle Paule and also the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike For the presumption pretended there is great difference betwéene presumption and the imaginations of the spirite of man which is but darknesse and of himselfe knoweth nothing in the things of God and the
ReuelatioÌ„s of the holy spirite which are most certaine and of no lesse assurance And so lastly touching our Answeres to be out of the first matter or spéeche If they be so so also are the Demaundes Obiection The Conclusion is whether euery one ought to be beléeued saying he hath a particulare Reuelation of the holy spirite without Declaration otherwayes that there be holy Scriptures and that there is difference betwéene the same Let euery one be iudge whether the Demaundes and Aunsweres be pertinent to this difficultie or not like as also whether the one importe more credite and beléefe than the other as the one béeing a newe Doctrine shewes not any proofe more than the other of their particular inspiration Aunswere In our former Answers we haue declared howe the Reuelations supposed by particulare persons ought to be examined by suche meanes as they may be discerned whether they be of Gods spirite or not Héere Doctor Vigor intercepted his further spéeche saying that in the discourse aforesaide he vnderstoode muche matter in the mynisters Aunswers to be against the woorde of God as where it is sayde that first the Sonne must be honored afore the father which Spyna mainteined to be vndoutedly true alleaging that proposition to haue his ground and authoritie on the holy scriptures as in the gospel and first Catholike of S Iohn Whervnto Vigor Replies that in the saide places is not founde this woorde firste albeit in respecte not to incident the matters alleaged in the beginning of the conference he wil forbeare for the present to enter into Confutation reseruing that charge til the ende of al the conference Aunswere Spyna requires Doctor Vigor to coate the places of scripture which he pretendes to be contrary to the contentes of his Aunswere And to iustifie his opinion to glorifie first the Sonne afore the Father according to the testimonie of the textes afore noted he preferres this reason grounded and drawne out of the Scriptures we can not knowe the Father onlesse we haue knowne the Sonne we can not glorifie the Father onlesse we haue knowne him by which the consequence foloweth that the knowledge and glorie of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glorie of the Father which being referred by Vigor to be more amplie debated in the conclusion of the whole conference Spina was also content Obiection Vigor Obiectes without entring further into this disputation that by the selfe same reason inferred by Spina it foloweth that we must honoure the Father afore the Sonne for by the Father we come to the knowledge of the Sonne as appeareth by the woordes of our Lord to S. Peter Caro sanguis noÌ„ reuelauit tibi sed pater meê° qui in coelis est The same aduouching manifestly that the heauenly Father reuealed to S Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon Vigor argues in this sorte whether the reason of Spina be vaileable by the Father we knowe the Sonne therefore muste we firste honoure the Father afore the Sonne Aunsvvere To followe the order of the knowledge which we oughte to haue of Iesus Christe and his Father propouned to vs in S Iohn we must begin by the Sonne and from the Sonne to the Father For S. Philip desiring him once to shew to him and his companions his Father He answered Philip who hath seene me hath also séene my Father the same teaching that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is a former knoweledge of the Sonne which may be also approued by the Authorities of other places where Iesus Christe saithe that none knoweth the Father but the Sonne and he to whome the Sonne wil reueale him And to aunsweare the Authoritie of S Mathewe alledged by Vigor Spina saithe that the place by him produced contained no mention of the knowledge of the Father nor the meane to come thereunto but only of the Reuelation which was made by the grace of God and his holy spirite to S. Peter and his other companions to know Iesus Christ and in him his Father Whereupon Vigor calles vppon the iudgemente of the Auditorie whether this be an Answere to his Obiection reseruing notwithstanding till an other conference to handle this pointe more largely if he wil mainteine it as not now to incident that which hath bene proponed whereunto Spina consentes Vigor addes further vpon an Answere made by Spina where he vsed a difference betweene the Reuelation certaine by the Lorde to a particulare man and the holy Scripture in which Aunswere he seemes to put a maruell the rather for that there is no Faithe giuen to holye Scripture but only that the Lorde is the Author thereof who can not lie euen so if a particular man be assured that a Reuelation is made to him by the Lord or that a persone be assured of the Reuelation made to an other be bound asmuch to giue faith to the Reuelation as to the scripture the which matter also he will not as he may amplie handle and deduce but falles eftsoones vpon the first Question which as yet hathe not bene resolued to the which he prayes Spina to aduaunce and prepare himselfe Aunswere The cause of Vigors maruell touching the Reuelation of the Lorde and the woorde to be thinges differing produced in one of Spinas Answeres moues in that he conceiues not the sense and meaning of the spéeche For Spina wil not put a difference touching the certaintie betweene the true Reuelations of the Lorde and the woorde whiche proceeding from him is no lesse true than the Reuelation and the Reuelation of Reciprocal Faithe with the woorde and yet it followes not for all that that the woorde and Reuelations of Goddes spirite by whiche we may be ledde to the vnderstanding of the woorde be not things differente and that the one goeth not afore the other And touching Vigors request to prepare to the pointe he Aunswereth that he can not frame or draw his Answers from other grounde than the Demaundes that are made him To this Vigor Replied that touching the sense he layeth him selfe vpon the contentes of Spinas Aunswere And where he saithe that the woorde goeth afore the Reuelation that deserues not to set a difference vppon the question propouned And touching the matter of the pointe Vigor Demaundes if a persone may be assured that he hath the Reuelation of the Lord or that a Booke be a Booke of holy scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inwarde inspiration And lastly how he may assertaine any of this inspiration which he hath of the Lord. Aunswere The first Article of the last demaunde is not a thing impertinent to distinguishe the scripture from the interpretation of the same seeing they are matters diuers and sundry giftes of the lord And to answer that part of the demaund how a particulare man hauing in his heart the Reuelation and inwarde witnesse of Gods spirite may knowe that it is Canonical the spirite of God is
conteined comparison of two Reuelations of the spirite the one made to the body and the other to the members which they maintaine to be of equal value touching the certaintie and in the confession is mention made of the Reuelation of Gods spirite which causeth the consent of the Churche which foloweth thereof as the effecte And if it be so that the cause being preferred afore his effect there is greate reason that the Reuelation of the spirite of God compared with the consent of the Churche should be preferred afore it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the cōtrarietie which they pretend in Confessions Printed in diuers seasons and by sundrie Printers they shall be Aunswered when their pleasure is to debate the Articles particularly Question Where they made a doubt of the true Church euen the like may be said of the Reuelations pretēded of Gods spirit to particular men whom also we may dout whether they be members of the Church or not Touching the other point where they denie to impugne the fourthe Article of their Confession there séemes no small contradiction as comparing the particular Reuelation with the consent of the church as appeareth by their Aunswere it séemes also to serue to small purpose where they alledge the Reuelation to be the cause of the consent preferring it afore the same as the cause afore the effecte the same séeming as who should say the Reuelation is to be preferred afore the word of God and holy scripture for it is moste certaine that the Reuelation goeth before the woorde and scripture And as it appeares in the texte of the Confession which may be easily iudged the Authors of the same speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two Reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their spirite than that which is of the iudgemēt of the churche Touching the other pointe that particulare men may sometimes faile when Gods spirite leaues them we may conclude by that we ought not to rest infallibly vpon the inspirations pretended of particulare men bicause it may be douted whether they be forsaken of Gods spirite or not which we can not do of the Church therefore it is more assured to stay vpon the Churche infallibly gouerned by the holy spirite than vpon the priuate pretended inspirations which the Catholikes do not folowing their priuate iudgement and therfore can not be estéemed fantastike but rather such are guiltie of that name who prefer their proper iudgement which they couer with the title of particulare inspiration The Doctors require a texte of the Scripture by the which the holy spirite is promised to euery particulare person as to the vniuersal church therby to know how to iudge and discerne what be the scriptures Aunsvvere Touching the first pointe as in déede we do not approue all churches to be true which are so said euen so we allowe not for faithfull suche as vaunt them selues to be so For the second the comparison of the Doctoures is improper in this pointe as who should say the Reuelation is to be preferred afore the woorde of god c. Bicause Gods worde and all the writings aswel of the Prophetes as Apostles are as so many Reuelations of Gods spirite and that betweene the one and the other there is no more difference than betweene genus and species Touching the Article that the Reuelation goeth before the scripture we muste distinguishe betwéene the Reuelations made to the Prophets before they committed them to writing and those which are made to them that read their writings to vnderstande them For the first we confesse they goe before the scripture and for the seconde we say they folowe it Touching the third Article the ministers Aunswere that it is easie to iudge whether Gods spirite assist a particulare man or whether he be drawne from him by the matters he propoundes when they be conferred with Gods woorde and censured by the rules of the same as is saide Touching their demaunde it were a long and weary encomber to alleage all the places where it is written that Gods spirite is communicated to the chosen the better to knowe and discerne the things that are of God in Esay 5◠the Lord promiseth to poure his spirite vppon the faithfull as water vpon the earthe Likewise in Ioel. 2 Ieremie 34. in the first Catholike of S. Iohn 2. vnder the name of vnction and many other places Obiection These places make no proofe at all that the spirite was promised to all to iudge of the Doctrine Other wayes euen women and all artificers that were faithfull mighte iudge of the Doctrine as the Prophetes and Apostles of the contrary S. Paule saithe Numquid omnes Propheta c. He saithe expressely that discretion of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the scriptures and be giftes not common to all the faithfull but particulare to some Aunswere The consequence which the Doctors make is nothing woorthe bicause Gods spirite oftentimes is communicated more aboundantly to some than to others and that also some be better exercised in the scriptures than others Touching the place of S. Paule 1. Corinth 12. the ministers say it makes nothing against them bicause the spirite of Prophecie and the spirite of discretion be giftes differing as appeares by the discourse of the Apostle in the same Chapter The second day of disputation being VVednesday the tenth of Iuly THe Doctors required that their Protestation made the day before might be Inregistred which was this that they would not enter into disputation of things receiued into the vniuersall Churche since the Apostles till our time decided and already determined by the holy Councels Ecumenike and general holding them most certaine and vndouted and that all Doctrine to the contrary was false Onely they were ready according to the holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and the Ladie of Buillon his daughter to make knowne by the expresse woorde of God interpreted by the saide vniuersall Churche and Councels that their Doctrine is holy and conducible to saluation in which Doctrine as the saide Ladie had bene first instructed so all instruction ministred to her in the contrary is hurtful and damnable And lastly that this conference might be in manner of instruction and not a Disputation In like sorte the Ministers protested that they did not ioyne in assemblie with the Doctoures for any doubte they had that all that was centained in their Confession of faith was not certaine and true and grounded vpon Gods woord as appeareth by the places of Scripture noted in the Margent of the sayde Confession beléeuing that what so euer is contrary is damnable and to be reiected thoughe euen an Aungell of heauen would propone it And touching themselues they came not thither to be instructed in other Doctrine than that which they folowe and which they haue learned of Iesus Christe whome they acknowledge as the only maister and teacher of the churche Héere the Lorde of
rather discerned by the woorde then by the consente of many it resembles nothing the purpose of the Doctors For the question is howe a man may iudge a Booke to containe Goddes woorde and not to iudge the Doctrine by the woorde already receiued to which the Doctoures desire and the Ministers make request that directly to the pointe they mighte dresse their Aunsweres Touching where they saide of the consent of many the Doctoures phrase was not so but spake of the consent of the Churche which is as infallible as Gods woorde for as it is certaine that the holy Spirite is author of the woorde so is it no lesse sure that he is the soule of the Churche by whose guide shee can neuer erre according to the witnesse of S. Paule who calles it Columnam firmamentum veritatis they will not enter into this Question whether the multitude of the Churche may erre or not and yet it can not be founde since the Churche was planted after the deathe of Christe that shée hathe béene in lesse number than the sectes of Heretikes neither dothe it serue to this purpose that hathe bene alleaged of Constance and of the time of the old Testament for there is greate difference betweene the Sinagoge of the Iewes and the Churche which as it is a congregation of all nations beleeuing in Iesus Christe so it can not but stande and consiste in moste great multitude for otherwayes the promises made to the Churche of the Gentiles shoulde be vaine For it is saide to Abraham that his seede we must not meane of the fleshe should be multiplied as the Starres of heauen or sande of the Sea. To the Article that beginnes touching the Prophets c. the Doctoures say and confesse that there is great difference betwéene fantasticall imaginations and Reuelation of the holy Spirite But the Ministers Aunswere not howe they woulde proue their particulare persuasions to be rather Reuelations then vaine and fonde imaginations of Prophets whereof Ezechiel speakes which notwithstanding they called inspirations as also what they saide and preached they called it the woorde of God. To the Article which beginnes touching Anabaptistes c the Doctoures Aunswer that to one ende the Ministers and Anabaptistes produce selfe places whereof mention is made as the better to assure their Doctrine to be of God bicause they haue a particulare Reuelation as God hathe promised them by his Prophetes For which selfe cause the Ministers haue broughte in the saide Testimonies of scripture to proue that euery Faithfull man may iudge by his particulare inspiration if a Booke containe the woorde of God with Distinction of the Canonicall from the Apocriphall and so discerne the true Doctrine from the false which is the very grounde of the Anabaptistes and other Heretikes To the Article beginning touching that which is produced of Brentius c the Doctors alleage that the ministers haue not vnderstande their intent For they bring not in the saying of Brentius and Bucer otherwayes than in a speache and meaning that they know the Canonicall Bookes of the holy scripture by the tradition of the Churche and not by particulare inspiration as the Ministers doe Touching the Article folowing the Doctoures say that certaine times there were that some men doubted of certaine Bookes of Scripture as the Apocalips and Canonicall Epistles of S. Iohn with others Albeit which time and of common consent the Churche led and guided by the holy Ghoste hathe receiued indifferently for Canonicall all the Bookes that be in the Bible which consent continued by so many hundred yeares had more authoritie than the saying of one or two who notwithstanding spake not but of their owne time Besides there is no comparison at all betwéene the saying of one or two particulare men and the determinations of Councels and consent of the Church as is saide it will be founde also that S. Ierome hathe approued those Bookes as Canonicall as appeareth in the Prologue he made of the Booke of the Machabees where he saithe As for the Hebrues they are not Canonicall but sunt canonicae Historiae Ecclesia or suche like woordes Touching the Councell of Laodicen they take it as it is albeit it may be they are deceiued naming one Councel for an other And for the Article beginning touching the experience c albeit it be a Question de facto yet it can not be but of special value which if it be founde as the Doctoures haue propouned whereof they doubt not the grounde of their particulare Reuelation is pluckt downe and confounded Touching the conclusion of the Ministers the Doctoures declare that many times they haue cōplained that matters were incidented laying themselues vpon the iudgement of euery one that their last Resolution was drawne in one direct line handling one selfe matter withoute varying in which notwithstanding if there had bene found any matter of difficultie and that the ministers had desired to proceede to the conference of the principal points they could easily haue cleared the said difficultie the Doctors wold haue enlarged further matter of these Articles sauing that to enforce and hasten the businesse for the whiche they are called they forbeare to multiplie speache Where the Ministers alleage that they receiue the xxiiij Bookes of the Olde Testamente with al those of the New the Doctors saie that is smal respecte of matter For al the conference whiche hitherunto they haue made as by what Rules a man might discerne one Booke from an other with iudgemente whether they were of Scripture or not was to bring them to this point that they receiued them by the tradition of the Churche who as shée is the iudge of the number of Bookes And that by the same meane when was question of the vnderstanding of Goddes woorde yea in the collation of the places of the same Scripture the Ministers Doctors might haue such reuerence to the vniuersal church that shée mighte be accessed on bothe partes as iudge of the vnderstanding of Scripture whiche they woulde acknowledge to haue receiued of her and whereof shée is infallible more certaine iudge than either the one or other Al which notwithstanding the Doctors offer to the Ministers not to inferre for that time other Bookes than such as they receiue for Canonical only when they shal fall into difficultie of the interpretation of any text or the conference of many the doctors accompte it more reasonable to haue recourse to the vniuersal Churche and Auncient Fathers than to their proper iudgements or fansies of the Ministers Aunsvvere For conclusion the Ministers consente to the offer of the Doctors to decide the pointes and Articles of their confession by the Bookes Canonical agreed vpon betwéene them as the xxiiij Bookes of the Hebrewes and all those of the Newe Testamente protesting notwithstanding that in the last writing proponed by the Doctors there be many things whiche they approue not in any sorte and whiche they hope to reuerse by Confutation
séeing if it should be so it might be falsified corrupted They say that in their confession there is nothing either ambiguous or darke which some of the saide Doctors haue wel shewed whē they haue dressed a forme of confession vpon the Patron of those of the refourmed Churches vsing proper termes and sentences whereunto they haue added nothing to make it diuerse but that which they haue in difference with the Ministers that they could hardly grounde vpon the scripture Obiection The Doctours say the Ministers conceale no whit their boldnesse to deny things that are manifest as the opinion of S. Cyprian that the Apostles were the Authoures yea and made and composed the Symboll referring them selues altogether to the present hearers and others by whom this writing shal be readde wherein for their better grounde of this denial they rest vpon a very small reason which is vppon the Article of descending into Hell whether it was brought in by the Apostles or added by others as from thence to call againe into doubte whether they be Authours of all the other Articles The same resembling as if it were said that it is incertaine whether S. Iohn made his Gospell bicause some men doubte whether the Historie of the adulterer be of him But leauing that aparte the Doctoures demaunde if they confesse not in their Doctrine that God of his Omnipotencie cannot bring to passe that one body be in two places two bodies in one place Thirdly that God cannot bring to passe that one body be inuisible and fourthly that a body may be in one place without holding place equal to his greatenesse Aunswere All these questions are impertinent estranged from the confession of the churches yet the doctors haue chosen it for the fundation of al the conference in which respecte the Ministers require pertinent disputation that they chuse one Article or more of the said confession vpon which they pretende to pitche the ground of the saide Confession Obiection These questions are very pertinent to impugne the Articles of the Ministers confession for there is no question of the proper woordes conteined in the same confession which is no other thing than a summe of the Faithe But the Doctours seeme to impugne the sense of the articles which they knowe by theire proper writings by whiche they make open the testimonie that touching the Article of the Omnipotencie God cannot bring to passe the things aforesaide The Doctoures also shewe that it is directely to impugne the Doctrine of Heretikes and the true meane to proue against them that they receiue not the holy Scripture when it is proued they comprehend not the true sense of it They also say that euen the Ministers themselues be the causes of suche Questions hauing desired to conferre of the Masse by which meane the Doctoures woulde make them come to it For the Article of the omnipotencie is the principall ground to proue and sustaine Gods woord and the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christe in the Sacrament of the Aultare maruelling much of much declining considering that when there is speeche of their Confession they demaund the Masse and when the Masse is offred they require their Confession Aunswere The ministers maruell muche of so muche superfluous matter proponed by the Doctoures And where they say that albeit they impugne not the termes of the saide Confession yet they resiste the sense the ministers Aunswere that the sense can not be knowne but by the termes by which reason they wrap themselues in a contradiction when in leauing the termes they say they will confute the sense Touching the Conclusion affirming that one body at one selfe instante may be in diuers places the Ministers denie in good consequence that that can not be inferred of the omnipotencie of God. Obiection The Doctoures say that it foloweth that God can not bring to passe that at one time one body occupie two places God then is not almightie Aunswere The Ministers denie the consequence aforesaide and alleage the reason as that it appeares by the holy Scripture that God can not denie him selfe as also it is impossible that he can lie and yet it were blasphemie to inferre thereupon that he is not omnipotent For the almightinesse of God ought to be measured according to his wil and things which are conuenient to his nature as the Maister of sentences teacheth saying that God is almightie in that that his habilitie is of power and not of infirmitie which S. Ierome writing to Eustachius confirmes by this that foloweth I will say hardly albeit God can doe all things yet can he not raise or réestablishe a Virgine after hir fall S Augustine in like sorte in the fifthe Booke of the Citie of god Chap 10. vset◠these woordes Goddes power is in nothing lessened when it is saide he can not die nor be deceiued And a little after God is almightie bicause there be things which he can not doe The same Author in the .26 of the same worke Chap. 8. vseth this spéeche he that saithe if God be almightie let him bring to passe that things which are made be not made doth nor meane that it is as much as if he should say if he be omnipotent let him bring to passe that the things that are true in as muche as they are already true be false Theodoretus also in his thirde Dialogue conformablie to this saithe wée muste not without Determination say generally that all things are possible to God bicause he that saith so absolutely comprehendes things that are good and wicked matters also which be their contraries And a little after he affirmes that God can not sinne as being a thing farre from his nature And so concludes that albeit there be many things which he can not doe seeing there be many sinnes that yet for all that he forbeares not to be omnipotent Obiection The Doctors finde in the reasons aforesaid a Confession of the antecedēt which shuld seeme to be only supposed God could not bring to passe that one body at one season shoulde be in two places no more than he is able to do the things by them alleaged for they alleage them to this ende to shewe that there be somethings which God can not do which they can not applie to the present Question that one bodie can not vse two places without Declaration that it is impossible to god And touching the reasons recited of the holy Scripture that God can not lie nor denie himselfe those places vnder correction serue nothing to purpose For as they haue alleaged out of the Maister of sentences to lie and to be able to sinne is not power but impower so of the contrary if God could sinne he should be impuissant and weake neither coulde God do so for then he shoulde resiste and destroy himselfe And touching the Examples drawne out of S. Ierome and S. Augustine that God coulde not bring to passe that a corrupte Virgine
to the nature of God and of the parte of the body doth implie no contradiction Then God can do it or else so God cannot do it then it foloweth that God is not almightie in this sorte is proponed the reason and deduction of the antecedent and consequent and also the proofe of the assumption or seconde preposition for it is proued that there is no contradiction in saying that one body may be in two places that it doth not impugne the nature of God whereof the proofe hathe bene made by the Example of like things as God may bring to passe that two bodies may be in one place with other like reasons which are deduced in the Obiection And where they say the Doctoures doe argue euil from a particulare to an vniuersal it seemes vnder correction they haue forgotten the rules of Dialectice as being most certaine that this rule hathe place in the affirmatiue and not in the negatiue But of the contrary when there is any thing affirmed generally and the default is proued in particular as say the Dialecticians Ad negationem perticularis sequitur negatio eius quod vniuersaliter affirmatum est In like sorte when any thing is affirmed of the whole which hath many partes and the default be proued in one parte the destruction of the whole foloweth As if one would say all the body is whole who would proue one part of that body diseased shuld proue this proposition false all the body is whole such is the manner of arguing which the Doctors haue made that is that if God can not do a particulare thing as to bring to passe that one body be in two places then he can not doe all things or if he can doe all things he can also doe that They are sory to be referred to their Dialecticke as consisidering none other end than to make the antecedent graunted which is that God can not bring to passe that one body be in two places wherein for their partes they are glad to vnderstand the Resolution of the Ministers vpon this Article which is that God can not bring to passe nor cā not wil that one body be in two places bicause it implies cōtradiction And where the Ministers say that the Doctors by their reasons can not inferre the truthe of the antecedent the Doctors confesse it by which the ministers also perceiue that the reasōs which they haue brought foorth are nothing woorth to the confirmation of the Antecedent which is their resolution But the Doctoures say that those reasons albeit they were not vailable yet were they brought forthe by the ministers to this end to proue the impossibilitie of God to bring to passe that one body should be in two places For the Article beginning touching the authorities c the Doctoures Obiecte that the Auncientes neuer thoughts to make any exception of any thing which is not subiecte to the power of God for as it is manifest he that saith all excepteth nothing so when the scripture saithe that God is almightie hir meaning is clear that there is no exception and to giue exception in this should be no lesse to gainesay many places of Gods woorde than to blaspheme his power But the Doctoures say that the Auncientes haue interpreted the omnipotencie of God not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature but onely that which concerneth creatures So that there be not to manifest contradiction repugnancie of their parte The present Question importes not that there is not contradiction that one body be a body and that at one instant it be in diuers places For of the essence of bodies speaking of one body hauing his dimensions according to the phrase of the Philosophers de predicamenio quantitatis it is certaine that the Dimensions be of the essence of a body but to be circumscript and enclosed in a place is accidentall The same being declared by Philosophie for the moste high heauen according to his whole is a body and yet it is not in place according to his whole And therefore it is not a thing essentiall to a body to be enclosed in one place Wherein to speake of the present matter the Ministers should be muche encombred to proue that the body of Iesus Christe is in one place in Heauen séeing it is written in the fourthe of the Ephesians he is mounted aboue all the Heauens oute of the which there is no place as they speake of places in regarde of bodies according to nature And if it were so that it were essentiall to one body to be in one place according to the rule which the Ministers giue there wold followe an other blasphemie againste the omnipotencie of God that God could not make one body and bestow it aboue all the Heauens and to speake more vniuersally that God could not make a body without place equal to his greatnesse Touching the Allegations proponed by the Ministers of certaine Auncient authoures the Doctoures Obiecte that those Allegations make against themselues bicause to be enclosed in one place depends not of the essence of the body nor his dimensions as appeareth by the Authorities produced making mention of the Aungels who haue no bodies it it is not then an essentiall reason that the dimension of one body be contained in one place Neither dothe all this blonderment of Authorities make any thing to purpose séeing they tend not but to shew that the natural propertie of creatures is different from the nature Diuine as saithe S. Basile expressely in the place alleaged by the Ministers as S. Ambrose in the first Booke of the holy Ghost Chap. 7. where the saide Authoures declare that God of his nature may be euerywhere as his creatures by their natures not neither doo the said Authors pretend that God by his omnipotencie can not make one body to be in diuers places séeing euen very they or their like when they come to speake of the power of God in the holy sacrament affirme that Christes body is in heauen and in the holy Sacramente inueighing also by the same power that the Aungels and soules of the blessed may be in many places and the Doctours wil recite in their Resolution Where the Ministers saye that a Body muste be circumscripte of the place according to his essentiall propertie that hath bene declared false héere before And the Ministers confounde the name of a body which signifieth sometimes substance sometimes quantitie hauing his dimensions largenesse length and profoūdnesse which dimensions are essentiall in a body taking body for fourme of quantitie and not in a substantial body for then it is accidentall It is most certaine that God may seperate the accidents of a body make a substance without accidents otherwayes would folow an other blasphemie that God coulde not seperate the accident from a subiect and substance And where the Ministers say that by a violent mouing a stone may be throwne on highe it is not Aunswered to
be broughte in by Caluin and his like to eschue confession that God is able to bring to passe that one body be in diuerse places and yet the proper text of the Scripture witnesseth that two bodyes may be by the power of God in one selfe place as also that one bodye hauing colour and afore visible by Goddes power is made inuisible without any let to the eies of suche as may sée the same being confirmed by S. Luke saying Aphantos egeneto apanton I nuisibilis factus est ab ipsis notwithstanding there were no more leâ—te of the parte of the Disciples For it is saide afore that theire eies were opened to know him Whereunto all antiquitie consentes The Doctours adde to confirme the penetration of the dimensions an other acte that our Lord mounted to the Heauens which he did neither diuide nor rent and therfore it must needes be that he penetrated them as the Scripture beares in proper termes The Doctoures signifie to the saide Ministers that they cannot produce one onely Anciente of sounde renowme hauing expounded these places of whom thei may learne their so many diuerse interpretations neither dothe it serue to colour their exposition the texte alleaged of the Actes of the Apostles where S. Peter went out of prison in which place is no speach at al of opening the doores of the said prison neither is it saide as in S. Iohn that the doores of the prison being shut S Peter came foorth but that the Aungell arriued there when the Garde before the doore watched the prison where they saye the doores were open to S. Peter it agreeth not with the opinion of S. Iohn that the doores were shutte when our Lorde entred The like reason alleaged by the saide Ministers of the fifth of the Actes is vnprofitable to this purpose aswell as the firste and for the same cause And to shewe clearely and euidentely that againste the naturall propertie of Bodyes God can make that a greate and grosse Bodye maye passe into a space and place inequall to his greatenesse largenesse and thickenesse The Doctoures haue recited that whiche our Lorde saithe in S. Mathewe 19. It is more easie that a Cable enter the eie of a Néedle than a Riche man into the Kingdome of Heauen whereunto the Ministers haue aunswered two things The one that in the inuolution we must not turne Cable but rather Camel notwithstanding their own french Bible of the impression of Antony Kebul which they haue brought conteineth the versioÌ„ of this word Cable like as also Caluin in his Harmony of the foure Euangelists saith it is the better Wherein may be séene and founde true that which Tertullian inueigheth againste the Valentinians and Irenaeus againste him in the firste Booke Chap. 14. that suche as are separated from vs to putte themselues in an other schoole deuise alwayes some new thing to the end the Disciples may be founde more able than the Maisters But be it that the woorde of Camel is graunted to them which the Doctoures doubte not hathe bene expounded by S. Hilarie S. Ierome others the reason is yet stronger For it is more vnlikely and repugnante that a crooked Camel grosse and greate enter the hole of a Néedle than a Cable The other reason giuen by the Ministers is that God maye bring to passe that a Camell or Cable enter the eie of a Néedle whiche is notwithstanding againste the pure woorde of Iesus Christe whiche saith It is not impossible to God to doo it but rather easie and by comparison more easie to God than to make a Riche man enter into the Kingdome of Heauen whiche our Lorde saithe notwithstanding to be possible not to men but to God to whom nothing is impossible whereupon the doctours saie that if God can doo that whiche is moste harde he maye doo that whiche is moste easie The texte of the Scripture importes that God may bring to passe that a rich man enter into the Kingdome of Heauen whiche is moste harde then he maye bring to passe that a Camell or Cable enter the eie of a Needle whiche is more easie The aunsweres of the Ministers here before confuted tend to these absurdities and blasphemies that Iesus Christ by his Omnipotencie could not enter throughe the doores being shutte that he coulde not issue out of the wombe of his Mother through her body without breaking that he could nor bring to passe that a body visible should be inuisible that a body greate and grosse coulde be in a place inequal to himselfe that he could by his Diuine power make penetration of the Dimensions and that he maye bring to passe by the same power Diuine that one body be in two places for it is al one reason of this laste Article and the others albeit such things are declared in the Scripture not onely possible but that the moste parte haue bene done And the Doctoures doe much maruell how the Ministers dare denie this séeing themselues must necessarily confesse if the Doctrine of the Supper which they giue be true that the bodye of Iesus Christe is in diuers places which they proue thus The faithfull receiue in their soules Really the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christe by the operation of the holy Ghost and not onely the bread and wine or the effecte and vertue of the same Sacrament as Calume saithe in his institutions lib. 4. cap. 17. sect 11. The Doctoures conclude thus it is impossible that a person receiue the substance of the body of Iesus Christ in himself but that the body of Iesus Christe must be in him All the Faithfull which be at the Supper receiue him in their soules so that it muste néedes be that the body of Iesus Christe be in them and by consequence in diuers places as euery where where their Supper is made and likewise in Heauen They say further that Caluine in his Institutions lib. 4. cap. 17. sect 24. mainteines that in the Supper the power of God is requisite to the ende the Fleshe of Iesus Christe penetrate into vs and that humaine nature can not comprehende that but néedes must Gods power woorke in it By which meane Caluine puttes by the power of God the Fleshe of Iesus Christe in many places as bothe in heauen and vs into whom he must penetrate by the power of God And in the .10 number he saithe that the truthe signified and represented by signes muste be represented and exhibited in the very place where the signes be which he proues by reason in many places that is that the signes must not be voide no more than the pilloure was voide of the holy spirite But euen as the essence and substance of the holy Ghoste was conioyned and present with the pilloure euen so that the Fleshe and Bloud of our Lord afore there was true Sacrament must néedes be knitte and vnited with the signes The places be against Heshusius and in his Booke of the Supper
are obiected to corrupte the scripture the Doctors say the the Ministers can not deny that they chaunge not the sense and glose the matter of the Supper this is my body this is my bloude By which and suche like Authorities vnder pretext of obscure reasons euery one may pretend to corrupte the other Scriptures and alleage certaine impossibilities of nature and contradictions For the Article beginning touching the opinion of the scripture that the body c the Doctors say that in time and place they will declare their Obiections and make a more large discourse of the Sacrament of the Altare Touching the Obiection of the Doctoures that the contrary parte doe not grounde their affirmation which is that God can not bring to passe that one body be in two places vppon the expresse testimonie of the Scripture or that they can deduce it thereof the Ministers haue alleaged for all their places but that God can not lie God can not deny him selfe But the Doctoures say this consequence is nothing woorthe God can not lie God then can not bring to passe that one body be in two places which notwithstanding it had behoued the Ministers to haue made so if the places brought in had serued to the purpose like as also when it is saide that God can not lie as the Ministers haue recited to be able to lie is not power but infirmitie So that it behoued to say thus according to the true sense God is not infirme or weake as to be able to lie than God cannot bring to passe that one body be in two places which consequence woulde be ridiculare And where the Ministers haue broughte in certaine authorities of the Auncientes to proue that there is diuersitie betwéene the Creatures and the Creator and that the Creator by Nature is euery where and the Creatures are not in diuers places naturally The Doctoures receiue with reuerence the Authorities of the holy Fathers but there was no néede of their trauaile to produce the saide places for the confirmation of a thing so manifest and which was not in difficultie But the Doctors are yet to vnderstand one only place of the Scripture or one onely Testimonie of the Auncientes which sayeth that God coulde not bring to passe that one body were in diuers places The Doctoures desire the Ministers to receiue with like reuerence the Auncients specially touching the interpretation of the holy Scripture whose Exposition shall be the iudge betwéene them and the Ministers Vppon a request made to the Lorde of Neuers by the Ministers to assigne a day for Aunswere particularely to euery Article and reproche heaped before by the Doctoures in their Obiections The saide Lorde prouided that the Ministers shoulde take away with them at nighte one of the Copies of the Obiections to the ende to come readely prepared the next day by noone to Aunswere them whereunto the doctoures agréed who for their partes made like request for sufferaunce to Replie to the Ministers Aunsweres if they sawe it were so good with the which they will giue Resolution touching this Article of Gods omnipotencie to the ende to passe further and examine the Reall veritie of the bodie of Christe in the Sacramente of the Altare like as also the Ministers for their partes doe agrée to yelde a full Resolution to what so euer shall be deduced by them The morowe folowing being Wedensday the seuentens of Iulie the companie being assembled the Lorde of Neuers considering that the day afore the Doctoures had furnished all the time so that the Ministers had no oportunitie to aunswere presently thoughte there was no lesse leisure due to them to Aunswere and therefore with other necessary respectes which woulde haue bene a long and weary season he ordained from thence foorthe the conference to passe by wryting and that the Ministers shoulde bring againe the Copie that was giuen them to Aunswere and sende it vnto him signed by them and two Notaries whereof he woulde cause his secretorie to drawe oute an other copie to sende to the Doctoures reseruing with him selfe the Originall and in like case woulde sende the Ministers the copie of such as the Doctoures should send to him Wherunto the one and other parte submitted them selues and disputed afterwarde by wryting as foloweth The Aunswere of the Ministers to the Doctoures Obiections giuen vppon Tuesday the sixtienth of Julie THey denie that the Doctoures consequence is necessary which is God can not bring to passe that one body be in two places at one instant and that therfore God is not almightie bicause Gods omnipotencie ought not be measured but by the things only conformable to his will and do not derogate either his nature his wisedom his truth or the order he hath established in the world Whereunto that which the Doctoures preferre dothe directly resiste that one selfe body at one selfe instante may be in diuers places by which it should folowe that a body may be a body and not be limitted and so by consequence that he may be and may not be all together For the measures as to be long large and thicke and to be bounded and limitted within certaine endes are so essentiall to the bodie that withoute them he is no more a bodie in whiche spéeche the Ministers doe in nothing diminishe Goddes omnipotencie but of the contrarie establishe it not attributing to him any mutabilitie or chaunge in his Councell nor contradiction in his will for feare to make him lie a thing impossible to him by the Scripture And touching that which the Doctoures alleage of the ancientes that they haue not denied the almightinesse of God the Ministers haue declared héere before that they haue and in what cases it may happen yea Fertullian in his Booke which he wrote against Praxeas speaking of this matter vseth this spéeche Certainely nothing is hard to god But if withoute iudgement we vse this sentence and interprete it according to our fond fansie we may faine al things of God and say he hathe made them bicause he coulde make them wherin we must not beléeue that bicause he might and may do all things that therefore he hath made that which he hath not made but rather to enquire if he haue made it and so the conclusion folowes that the power of God is his wil and his not power likewise his not wil. It rested then to the doctors to shewe that God would make a body which in one instant should be in diuers places as to shew that he could do it And it is a maruellous matter that they impute againste the ministers to derogate the almightinesse of God as to except frō the same that which is contrary to his wil séeing they themselues confesse it and except the same things as standing betwéene them and the Doctors no other difference than that they say that God brings to passe that one body be in diuers places in one instante bicause he can doe it and the
firste place they alleage that God can not do a thing to derogate the order which he hath established in the world in the seconde that it were to establishe mutabilitie and chaunge in Gods councels to confesse that he is able to doe any thing contrary to the said order established in the world in the third that if it were so there should be contradiction in his will whereof should folow that he were a lier And for the fourth blasphemie that the power of God is his will and likewise his not power his not wil And for the fifth they pretende that God would haue a body which in one instant might haue bene in many places afore they beleue that God could haue made it otherwayes they meane to infer that he neither hath could nor can make it by which the Ministers will acknowledge nothing of Gods power but so muche as he shewes by effect for which matter they alleage Tertullian All these blasphemies are drawne out of the propre woordes of the first Article of the Ministers Touching the firste that God can not doe a thing to derogate the order he hath established in the worlde it is proued an apparant blasphemie by the Scripture who in infinite places makes mention of Gods works aboue nature which the Ministers call order established in the world the Scripture teacheth in proper termes the God can do infinite things aboue the order established in the world As the wife of Lot which was conuerted into a piller of Salte that a barraine woman in hir last age hauing an olde husband had a childe That a Vine all drie hathe flourished A shée Asse hath spoken that the Sunne stayed and went backe againe with other innumerable Examples contained in the olde Testament And for the new Testament that a virgin brought forth a childe That a body hath walked vpon the Sea and mounted to heauen and generally all the miracles done by Christ and his Apostles aboue nature the same being contrary to the order established in the worlde From this blasphemie growes an other that God séeing he hathe established his order in the world hath not done nor coulde nor can doe any miracle But to proue by the Authoritie of the scripture that God can do against the order established in the world it is writteÌ„ in Esay 50. My hand which is my power is it abridged that I can not redéeme buy againe is there no more power in me to deliuer Behold by threates I wil make dry the sea wil put the fluddes into the deserte so that the fishes shal perishe for wante of water and shal die of thirste I apparel the heauens with darkenesse and putte a sacke for their couer But more expressely in the newe Testamente where it is saide by S. Iohn that God can raise children to Abraham of the stones Which place albeit may be expounded Allegorically yet by the literall sense S. Iohn declares it was possible to God the Deuil knewe and hath confessed that if Christe were the true sonne of God he might transeforme stones into breade The same notwithstanding contrary to the order established in the worlde And we haue to note that there is no lesse impossibilitie that bread be turned into Flesh by Gods omnipotencie than a stone transnatured into bread Wherin for such as denie this last done by the power of God they declare that they beleeue lesse of the almightinesse than Deuilles The confuting of the seconde blasphemie dependes vpon the disproofe of the first for albeit God contrary to the order established in the world hath done many miracles as hathe bene recited héere before yet there is no mutabilitie or chaÌ„ge in his Councell Touching the third blasphemie that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the worlde there shoulde be contradiction in his will and therfore he should be a lier The Doctoures Obiecte that it would folowe that suche should be the will of God neuer to doe any thing against the order established in the world and that he wold haue stayed and declared that to be his will by his woorde For otherwayes it coulde not haue bene knowne what was Gods will. And as the ministers neither haue nor can make appeare by Gods woorde that suche is Gods wil as not to do any thing against the order established in the world so they must firste teache and instructe that suche is Gods will afore they conclude that if God made one body to be in two places or other thing against the order of Nature established in the world he should be a lier Touching the fourth blasphemie that Gods power is his will and that his impower is his vnwill According to the sense which the ministers giue it if God can not doe but what he will to be an Heresie of the Heretikes called Monarchians in the primitiue Church against whom Tertullian writes in his Booke aduersus praxeam and since renued by one Petrus Abaillardus and continued by one VVickleffe they in déede measured Gods power according to his will the same contrary to the expresse woord of God which oftentimes declars many things to be possible to God which notwithstanding he wil not doe as appeareth in Sap. 2 where it is recited that God could sende many sortes of afflictions to the children of Israell to chastise them but he would not doe it hauing disposed all things by measure number and ballance and that he might destroy suche as had offended him but he would not but vsed mercy to them In the gospel our Lorde saide to S. Peter Thinkest not thou that I can pray to my Father and he will sende me more than twelue legions of Aungels and yet as he would not pray to him so his Father did not send them although he was able to haue done it in the persone of his sonne Christe might haue let his enimies to haue taken away his life but he would not And the Father might haue saued him from corporall Deathe saithe S. Paule by his power but neither the one nor other would doe it which albeit the ministers might say was foreordained yet the Scripture holdes expressely that he might haue done it notwithstanding it was foreordained And touching the authoritie of Tertullian the Doctoures are glad they produce it as making altogither for the truthe againste their blasphemies and yet they haue omitted many of his woordes and sentences to confute their erroure as the text it selfe heere witnesseth Nihil Deo difficile Quis hoc nesciat in possibilia apud seculum possibilia apud deum qâ—is ignorat Et stulta mundi elegit Deus vt confundat sapientia Ergo inquiunt heretici monarchiani scilicet difficile non fuit Deo ipsum se patrem filium facere aduersus traditam formam rebus humanis Nam sterilem parere contra naturam difficile Deo non fuit sicut nec virginem planè nihil Deo difficile sed si tam abruptè in
presumptionibus nostris hac sententia vtamur quiduis de Deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit quia facere potuerit Non autem quia â—amia potest facere ideoque credendum est illum fecisse etiam quod non fecerit sed an fecerit requirendum Potuit ita saluus sum Deus pennis hominem ad volandum instruxisse quod melius prestitit non tameÌ„ quia potuit statim fecit potuit praxeam omnes pariter hereticos statim extinxisse non tamen quia potuit extinxit oportebat enim miluos esse hereticos oportebat patrem crucifigi Hac ratione erit aliquid Deo difficile id scilicet quod non fecerit non quia non potuerit sed quia noluerit etenim posse velle est non posse nolle By which texte may easily be séene according to Tertullian that God can doe many things which he will not doe as to make a man to flie but dothe it not he can destroy the heritikes yet spares them bicause he wil not do all he caÌ„ do And touching their conclusion of the saide place of Tertullian that the power of God is his will his impower likewise his vnwill they wel declare their sleight examination of the meaning of that place for Tertullian saith it not of his owne sentence considering he should conclude againste that he had saide afore but he inferres it against the Monarchian heretikes who held that what God might do he would do and it was done By which reason Tertullian concludes againste them that what God had not done muste néedes be hard and impossible to him so that according to those Heretikes it was all one to be done and might be done and not to be done as muche as to be impossible to God And of that as Tertullian inferreth would folowe that the power the will and the déede of God should be all one and of the contrary a thing not to be done and to be impossible to God to do it should also be all one And euen so also would be al one the power of God and his will and his impower and his vnwill which Tertullian concludes for an absurd thing procéeding of the opinion of the saide Monarchian Heretikes and not of his sentence which was altogither contrary wherin as we sée the ministers consent in opinion with the said Monarchian Heretikes which Tertullian refutes so the moste euident proofe standes in the fifthe blasphemie And for conclusion against the said blasphemies the Doctoures declars that God can doe much more than he wil doe and more than he hath established in the world for otherwayes woulde folowe yet other blasphemies as this that the power of God should not be infinite but limitted An other that for necessitie all things should be done in the world bicause God could not otherwayes doe than entertaine the order established in the world which Caluine himselfe detestes saying that God of his omnipotencie chaungeth and altereth the order established as it séemes good to him and to thinke otherwayes were to limite his power and prouidence Where the ministers say in their saide first Article that the auncient Doctors of the churche denied the omnipotencie of God it is a most manifest falshoode great wrong for they deny it not but interprete the scripture which séemes to deny it and so giue to vnderstaÌ„d how it ought to be taken that much lesse by the same scripture well vnderstanded there is any exception at al suffred against the almightinesse of God séeing that in the contrary it is confirmed as S. Augustine saithe in his fifth Booke de Ciuitate Dei. Cap. 10. Gods power saithe he is in nothing diminished when it is saide he can not die nor be deceiued For he can not suche things bicause if he coulde them his power shoulde be lessened concluding that he can not doe things which are of infirmitie bicause he is almightie Vppon the ende of the first Article the ministers chalenge vs as saying their difference is that we mainteine a body to be in many places bicause God can do it and that of the contrary the ministers holde that it is not in Gods power to do so bicause he wil not The doctors declare that for their part they neuer concluded to be true that a true body was in two places bicause God could do it But the Question was only to know if God could doe it to come afterwardes by order to proue by Scripture that he wold do it they haue already heretofore recited the scripture of the supper and the Ascension adding withall the Doctrine of Caluine touching the said supper to shewe that Gods will is to bring to passe that a body be in two places as in déede it is according to the expresse woorde of God. Besides we haue produced to the same end the scriptures of the doores being â—â—t of the birth of our Lord and of the Resurrection thorow the â—â—one which be like déedes and of the selfe reason to one body in many places Of the contrary the ministers to deny the will of God and depraue holy Scripture which sheweth that suche is Gods will that a body be in diuers places alleage not any thing more instantly than the impossibilitie of God to doe it But to the ende that al the world vnderstande the difference betweene vs we presently declare that there hathe bene no other difference touching this Article vntill now but to knowe whether it be in Gods power to bring to passe that a body be in two places at one instant or not And for the second Article the Doctors say the Ministers Aunswere not to the matter For the Obiection was not if quantitie were accidente of a Mathematical body aut de predicamento quantitatis as the philosophers hold but to know if it were of the essence and necessitie to the quantitie of a body to be circumscript and enclosed in place And touching S. Augustine alleaged by the Ministers he speakes expressely according to the propretie of the diuine nature and corporall nature saying that the Diuine nature is euery where but not the corporall as of his naturall propretie requiring a certaine place wherof the Doctoures make no difficultie arcording to the saide naturall propertie But the Question is if aboue nature by Goddes omnipotencie it may not be that a body be withoute place equall to his greatnesse the same being openly coÌ„fessed by S. Augustine when he speakes De clansis lanuis hauing no longer regarde to the nature of things but to the power of God And we coulde wishe that the ministers woulde alleage this Epistle of S. Augustine against the Doctrine of Caluine and his Ministers as often as they alleage the texte of the place of bodies againste the power of God touching the body of Iesus Christe in the Sacrament Touching the third Article the ministers are abused for according to the Philosophers and natural reason of bodies whiche
the Ministers folowe Loâ—us est superficies Corporis continentis by which if the highe and laste Heauen were circumscript of place there must needes be an other body aboue the highe and firste Heauen a quo primum Coelâ—m contineretur sic in infinitum For the rest the Ministers giue no answere to the other obiections made vpon this Article Touching the places of Scripture which they alleage to proue that there are places aboue the Heauens they doo paraphrase and abuse the ambiguitie of the name of a Place For in al their speache of the dimension of Bodyes whiche thei say doth necessarily require a place equal to their greatnesse they must meane Corporall places as the dimension of bodyes demaunde And now when they speake of places aboue Heauen they must vnderstand meane theÌ„ other than Corporal as not being such places or like to those wherin our bodyes be heard but places incomprehensible and imaginable where bodies and Sprites are indifferent without distinction of certaine spaces and places Corporall for their greatnesse in whiche places the Rule of the Ministers is false by which they mainteine that one body cannot be in one place if it conteine not roumth according to the greatnesse of the body for the reste we saie the manner of Heretikes is to interprete the Scriptures spiritually when they should take them according to the Letter and of the contrary to expounde by the Letter that which oughte to be vnderstanded spiritually and by figures as the Ministers expounde the house of God in the other world Literally and Corporally as to conteine spaces and Corporall habitations diuerse and separated one from an other albeit it oughte to be vnderstanded spiritually for the diuersitie of degrées of beatitude neither can the Doctours here omitte one manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this Article wherein they pretende that the Bodies and Soules of the blessed are lodged aboue al the Heauens and yet they lodge the Bodye of Iesus Christe within Heauen And touching the Article condemned by the Facultie of the Diuines of Paris we answer that it is an ordinarie vse with the Ministers to alleage Authorities either corrupt or improper For the Article saithe that the Bishop of Paris hauing assembled the Facultie condemned all suche as would mainteine twoo seuerall Heauens the one for Aungelles and the other for the soules of men whiche apperteines nothing to the present question In the fourth Article the Ministers impose vpon the Doctoures who neuer attribute the propertie of God to any creature and haue saide many times before that to be euerywhere and incircumscript was not naturall to any creature but onely to god Wherein the Authoures alleaged by the Ministers as S. Basil Dydimus and Vigilius speake not otherwayes than of the propertie of Nature to be euerywhere or not and yet denie not that it is in Gods power to bring to passe that a creature or bodye be in twoo or many places aboue his nature but as hath bene saide when they come to the power of God many of those ancient authours confesse it to be possible to God and that he hath done so in the Sacrament and therfore the Ministers answer is out of the matter séeing al the contention is but of Gods power not of natural properties In this fifth Article the Ministers haue not rightly comprehended the reason of the Doctours who haue not alleaged that Aungelles are circumscripte naturally as well as bodyes by whiche they woulde inferre that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the only essential cause of the dimensions of a body as by al their said reasons the Ministers pretende notwithstanding the Doctours are not ignorant that to put difference betwene corporall and spiritual creatures there is a custome in the schole to distinguish the Angels sunt diffinitiuè in loco bodies circuÌ„scriptiuè In the sixth Article to satisfie the Doctours request to produce one only place or testimonie of the Ancients to proue it not in Gods power to make one body in twoo places The Ministers for al the authorities they can haue alleage falsly one place of S. Augustine where it is said as is recited vpon Gratian de Consecratione Distinct 2. C. Prima quidem that S Augustine wrote that it muste be that Christes body be in one place whereunto the Doctours answere that it is not so set downe in the proper text of S. Augustine which is in the 30. Treatise vpon S Iohn the tenure being thus in all the ancient exemplaries of S. Augustine Corpus Domini in quo resurrexit vno loco esse potest Veritas eius vbique diffusa est Here is no Oportet as the Ministers recite hauing it of Gratian. And to the ende it be knowne that there oughte no greate trust to be had in the fragmentes of Gratian without hauing recourse to the exemplaries of S. Augustine In the title of the Canon there be these woordes drawne out of the Exposition of S. Augustine vppon the 54. Psalme from whence he drawes the onely beginning of his Canon and yet he brings it not in as for truth the residue of which Canon is taken of diuerse places of the saide S Augustine And albeit there were Oportet yet S. Augustine vsing his custome speakes according to the propertie of the Bodye opposing the Diuinitie to the Humanitie and toucheth not the operation of Goddes Omnipotencie whereof when he doothe make mention and that he speakes of the Sacramente he affirmes expressely the Bodye of Iesus Christe to be in diuerse places by the Almightinesse of God as wée hope to deduce aswell of him as other Auncientes in our resolution The eighth Article conteines many Erroures againste Philosophie and Truthe as first in that they make no Distinction betwéene a body called Mathematicall whiche is hauing dimension of largenesse length and height and a body Physical or natural that is composed of a forme substantial and matter by the vnitie of which it is made a body natural and substantial In the second place if the body should be without quantitie yet would it differ from our soules separated which be no substance materiall and consequently it would differ also from Angels and Sprites In the thirde place for conclusion of this Article the Ministers declare plainly not to acknowledg any substantiall Body And where they saie that if God could separate the dimensions of a substance and not corrupte it that that substance should remaine spirituall as the Angells they are abused for that substance shoulde not remaine immateriall as our Soules and Angelles doo which be not capable of dimensions and therefore shoulde be still differente from Angels and our Soules To the ninth Article the Ministers answere nothing to pourpose for the Doctours holde not that grauitie weight are essentialles in a body but to encline downewarde is essential to the heauinesse weight of a body thei demaunded also in their obiection if an Earthely body and
weighty remaining in his substance and natural heauinesse coulde not by Goddes almightinesse be suspended on highe but that it must encline downwaede notwithstanding it were against his nature and inclination For the rest touching the answere to many Articles concerning twoo bodyes to be in one place and the places of Holy Scripture and Anciente Authoures produced by the Doctours to proue that it was in Goddes power to make twoo bodyes to be in one onely place and by the like reason that it was also in the same power to bring to passe that one body of the contrary be in twoo places we saie for the firste that the Ministers doo wrong to denie this Consequence twoo bodyes maie be in one place by Goddes power then of the contrary one bodye by the same power maye be in twoo places for there is asmuche repugnancie of Goddes order established in the one as in the other and no lesse contradiction in nature grounded vpon one cause and reason which is in the lymitation and circumscription of a bodye to the whiche as it is naturall to be in place so is it natural to him to be in place proportioned and corespondent to his dimensions And if for the number of diuerse places where one body were it might be inferred that it were no more a body as implying contradiction euen by the same reason according to one onely place where were many bodyes it coulde not be inferred that they were no more bodyes than many bodyes were one whiche woulde implie like contradiction to the firste And where the Ministers denie the Antecedent which is that twoo bodyes maye be in one place we haue produced to proue it the text of the doores being shut the byrth of the body of our Lord of the Virgyn the comming out of the Sepulcher the passage of a Camell through the creuis of a Néedle the penetration of the heauens which Iesus made at his Ascension and bicause they deny these doings conteined expressely in the holy scripture interpreted by the ancient Christians depraue it at their pleasure the Doctoures auouch againe vpon the textes of those Scripture as foloweth Firste touching the doores shutte S. Iohn saithe that Iesus is come He meanes to the place where his Disciples were neither came he thither without entring for that wer a more greate myracle to be in the middest of them without entring than to enter there simply In the seconde place it is saide â—um fâ—res essent clausa or tanuis clausis which is to say He entred the doores being shutte neither dothe it appeare that the Scripture makes mentioÌ„ rather of the doores than of an other place but to shewe on what part he entred Thirdly the Scripture addes not in vaine that the doores were shut without saying that any opening was made myraculously for it is alwaies saide â—â—od venit tanuis clausis And if it were true that the doores had bene opened by Diuine vertue it shoulde be false that our Lorde entred tanuâ—s â—â—rsisâ— for then shoulde he haue entred tanuis apertis by what meanes so euer they had bene opened And to declare that the common consent of all the Auncientes hathe bene that Iesus entred by the doores shutte the Doctoures preferre foure fundations drawne cute of the Auncientes In the firste they all confesse expressely that the myracle of the entring was made in the Bodye of Iesus Christe The seconde that suche myracle was done aboue the nature of the Bodye by the vertue of god The thirde is that expressely the Auncientes iudge that in that did consiste the myracle that the bodye passed throughe the doores shutte and was so with an other body And for the fourth fundation they adde that in regarde of suche an entring the Apostles taught that the bodye of Iesus was no true bodye but a Sprite or Vision whiche the Ministers passe lightely withoute aunswere But if it be so that by Goddes power as the Ministers holde there was made an opening either by the doores or other parte of the house to giue entring to the bodye of Iesus Christe then the myracle shoulde not consiste in the saide Bodye but in the doores or other parte of the house whiche were opened and yet there was nothing contrarie to the nature of the Bodye of our Lorde for it resistes not any Bodye what so euer it be to enter by an opening made by myracle or otherwayes Be it that Iustine is not the Authour of the Questions againste the Gentiles yet it cannot be denyed that they were not of some Aunciente Christians of the Primitiue Churche And the Doctoures haue attributed them to him on whose name they be entituled onely the saide Iustine in the place alleaged makes the myracle to haue passed in the Bodye of Iesus Christe whiche being grosse and thicke entred throughe the shutte doores againste the nature of a Bodye by the power of God and therefore the Apostles estéemed it to be a Vision by reason of an entry made withoute opening as Sprites are woonte to enter Sée the Texte S. Hilary dothe not onely saie that he entred by the Omnipotencie of God in what sorte so euer it be as the Ministers séeke to turne and wrest his authoritie but as one that had euen nowe to doo with the Ministers he repulseth and scoffes at al their euasions subtilties whiche they contriue of this dooing He saithe that nothing gaue place to make opening to suche a bodye neither loste he any thing of his substance nor to enter was in nothing diminished He addes that the doores and all other openings were closed and faste barred and yet in this lyeth the myracle that the true naturall body of Iesus Christe againste his nature by the Omnipotencie of God entred a house faste closed and couered without any opening by whiche he shewes apparantly that the myracle consisted in the Body of Iesus Christe Herein we referre to the texte which we desire to be wel examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place recited saith that S. Thomas was abashed when he sawe the Bodye of Iesus Christe enter Per inuia septa corporibus quod natura corporea per impenitrabile Corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu S. Chrysostome in the Homilie of S. Iohn Baptiste and in his Commentaries vppon the Gospell of S. Iohn saithe expressely Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat Phantasma non erat Spiritus verè corpus erat Quid enim dicitis respicite videte quia Spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carneÌ„ habebat ossa clausa eraÌ„t omnia Quomodo clausis ostijs intrauerunt ossa caro clausa sunt omnia intrat quem intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei Where without difficultie S. Chrysostome as also S. Ambrose confesse the myracle to be done in the Body of Iesus Christe in that he passed through
thing which is séene Neither is it lesse harde that suche a thing be done than that two bodyes be penetrate We must not forgette that oftentimes the scripture in the appearings and spirituall visions vseth this language that the Heauens were open and yet in suche cases there was but spirituall vision and likewise but spirituall appearing And as the Ministers séeke to take the rigoure of the woorde opening of the Heauens euen so they must not note it straunge if we wrest in like rigoure the penetration of the Heauens specially in the Article of the Ascention where is Question of the body of Iesus Christe which had already pierced bodyes more impenetrable than the Heauen which pointe of penetration of the Heauen we referre to be more amplie handled an other time as nowe to auoide tediousnesse Touching the eight and twentieth Article where the ministers againste expresse scripture defend obstinately that God of his power can not bring to passe that a Camell or Cable enter the eye of a néedle we can not a little maruell bothe at their blindnesse séeming to sée nothing in the midde day and at their frowarde obstinacie By which as we can not iudge that they vnderstand not wel their fault but sinne euen against their conscience oppugning the truthe by them well knowne so it séemes God suffereth this to happen to them in this text and place of the scripture so manifest to the ende that by this Article the world may vnderstande howe farre more hardie they are to giue false vnderstandings of scriptures more obscure than this yea in the matter of the Auncient Christians which are against them But to the ende the world vnderstand their great wrong to denie that our Lorde can bring to passe that a Camel or cable passe thorowe the hole of a néedle we obiecte that it were impossible to God to saue a riche man vsing this Argument taken of the texts of the Gospell it is more impossible or harde that God saue a riche man than to bring to passe that a Camel or cable passe thorow the hole of an Néedle God can not bring to passe of his omnipotencie as the Ministers say that a Camell enter the hole of a néedle then he can not of his almightinesse make that a riche man be saued and enter into the kingdome of Heauen The Maior is of the Scripture the Minor is confessed by the Ministers and the consequence is necessary and according to all Philosophie he that can not doe the moste easiest can not doe the moste hardest The Auncientes also haue expounded withoute gaine saying the present Scripture as Origen in his Homilie vppon this place saying it is possible that a Camell enter the eie of a néedle not for all that that it be possible as in respecte of men but to God like as the manner by which suche things may be done is knowne to God and his Sonne Iesus Christe and to him to whome it is reuealed S. Augustine likewise in his Booke de spiritu littera Cap. 1. and 5. writes in this sorte to Marcellinus it séemes to thée an absurde thing when I tell thée that a man may be withoute sinne albeit there is none suche founde except Iesus Christe thoughte it to seeme absurde to thée that a thyng may be done whereof no Example can be shewed séeing as I beléeue thou doubtest not at all that it was neuer done that a Camell entred the eye of a néedle and yet it is said that suche a thing is possible to God. By their Aunswere to the nine and twentie Article it may easily be knowne that they beguile and abuse their Disiples making them beléeue by faire woordes and writings that Really in the Supper they receiue the bodie of Iesus Christe euen he that issued out of the wombe of the virgine and was putte vppon the Crosse for the restauration of mankinde And they séeke to make to vnderstande that these which put not to the Sacrament which they call of the Supper wyth the Breade and Wine but some Spirituall effecte onely as redemption iustice sanctification eternall life and other giftes and benefites which Iesus Christe brings to hys chosen diminish the excellencie dignitie of the same Sacrament and that they be Zuinglians yea and that ouer and aboue suche spirituall effectes it muste be beléeued that the body of Iesus Christe is truely receiued in the Supper and yet they feede an other opinion in their braine For when they are pressed to Argue not being able to sustaine that fantasticall presence confessed in their writings they make themselues Zuinglians and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christe in the Supper the same being as muche to say that bisides the Breade and Wine they receiue some spirituall effecte and not Really the body as the Ministers holde in the presente Aunswere which as they make manifest by that they recite of the Apostle S. Paule so by the same may be gathered what is their opinion touching the supper which is that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not Really but onely by spirituall effecte in the heartes of the Faithfull For the Galathians by the hearing of the preaching of S. Paule did not receiue Really the body of Iesus Christe crucified but onely had an imagination of the Crosse and Passion of Iesus Christe and receiued onely the frute of their Faithe That is by that meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God. The Allegation also which the Ministers make of S. Cyprian tendes to this ende to shewe that in the Supper is receiued onely certaine effectes spirituall which notwithstanding Allegorically are signified by these woordes to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christe to sucke his bloude c. wherein they denie albeit againste the intente of S. Cyprian in his Sermon of the Supper the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christe The Doctoures confesse that the Argumente which they haue made tendes to the Caluinistes and not to the Zuinglians neither did they thinke that the ministers woulde otherwayes iudge of this Sacrament than Caluine Beza and the other ministers who vaunte them selues to be ministers of the churche of the Caluinistes which they call reformed But those which exhibited to the Bishops being at Poissi the Cōfession touching this Sacrament vsed an other maner of spéech They without difficultie confessed Really the Bodye of Iesus Christ to be present in the Supper which at this daie the Ministers denie with the Doctoures conferentes And as farre as the Doctoures can iudge the Ministers be come of Caluinistes Allemanistes which suche wil not wel disgest as mainteine the Doctrine of the Churche whiche they call Reformed séeing their principal supposts faile them at néed as vnable to aunswere one Argumente obiected by the Doctours as affirming in their aunswere to be so farre illumined with the Holy Sprite which makes them vnderstande and knowe al things Touching the Article folowing they reueale openly their present opinion touching
the presence of Christes Body in the Sacramente bicause they saie that the faitheful receiue no more in the time of the Gospel than the Ancientes before the Lawe and vnder the Lawe And it is certaine the Ancients receiued not Really the body of Iesus Christ which was not then formed so that we muste conclude that vnder the Gospell is not receiued Really the Body of Iesus Christe in the Sacrament which the Ministers cal the Sacrament of the Supper To the 31. Article they aunswere not as in déede they coulde neuer answere And necessarily they must confesse that in vertue of theire Faithe they doo that whiche implies contradiction for they mainteine a thing in one instant one place to be present and not present neither doth their spirituall or rather fantasticall presence any thing seeing according to their Doctrine the body cannot be present but with his dimensions Locally Diffinitiuely and Corporally otherwayes it were to take cleane away or corrupte the body And the manner to be there spiritually cannot make that the body be not there otherwayes they saye falsely that it is present in the Supper and abuse the worlde wherefore it is necessary that if the body be there yea spiritually if their Doctrine be true of the nature of a body that the body of Iesus Christe be Corporally Diffinitiuely and Locally in the Supper Besides séeing he is absent according to their confession it folowes that he is not there present And as to conclude the Ministers saie he is there and that he is not there so for an absolute solution without entring into the principall of the argument they thinke to escape with obiecting to vs certaine woordes of briefe which wee haue not yet seene which wée thinke they haue found in certaine Breuiaries of Monkes as that thei remember wheÌ„ they were in the Couent they vsed so to chaunt and say But albeit such things were found in the Breuiaries vsed in the Romish Church yet such manner of speach might be defended in the sense which the Auncients haue giuen when they said the Apostles Conficiunt Corpus Christi Like as also the scripture saith that they baptize they forgiue sinnes saue those whom thei conuert which is vnderstand as Ministers of God who of his authority and as Maister baptiseth forgiueth sinnes and iustifieth the faithful persons Where the Ministers maruel that the Doctors cal faith humaine vertue considering the great woonderfull effects it woorketh the Doctours replie that they haue no great occasion of woonder séeing that all woorke so long as it is in man that it woorkes there with God is reputed humaine as also the scripture cals the Faith of man the woorke of man The Doctours delare to the Ministers that according to their custome resting alwayes vpon smal things they folow not that which is the principal in the mater not vnderstanding or faining not to vnderstand where lies the difficultie of that which is handled as they doo in their aunswer vppon the Argument proponed by the Doctours by which they obiect that the Ministers by their faith whether it may be called Diuine or Humaine may doo more than God can to whiche Obiection the Ministers without entring to the pointe aunswere with songs In the 32 Article thei passe ouer very lightly many obiections made by the doctors wherin whether ther be superfluity or repetition or whether they be impertineÌ„t the iudgment remaines to the Reader notwithstaÌ„ding al the the doctors wil not forbeare once againe to require theÌ„ to bring foorth some place of scripture to ground that God cannot bring to passe that one body be in twoo places séeing this coÌ„sequence is too foolish vaine God cannot lye he cannot then bring to passe that a body be in twoo places for so must thei subsume Wel God hath said ordeined that one body cannot be in two places then he cannot make that it be so but they shall neuer teach the truth of the assumption or Mâ—nor propositioÌ„ the contrary wherof hath bene verified sufficiently by many testimonies of the Scripture We demaund also that the Ministers produce some Ancient yea a man euer reputed Catholike that durst pronouÌ„ce that God could not bring to passe that one body be in twoo places But in all their answeres they coulde not bring foorthe any of that opinion excepte S. Augustine albeit falsely alleaged bothe in respecte of the Letter and for the sense of the Letter neither will wée cease to vrge aswell the Ministers as al others that there is founde neither place of Scripture nor Booke of any Auncient that God cannot bring to passe that one body be in twoo places Touching the laste Article wée are fully determined to shewe by the pure and expresse Woorde of God interpreted by the common consent of all Antiquitie that our Lord hath instituted the Sacramente and Sacrifice of the Aultare And wée wil teache the effecte and vertue of the Masse according to the Institution and Ordinaunce of Iesus Christe making also to vnderstande that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacramentes instituted by Iesus Christe And lastely that the Supper mainteined by the Ministers is no Sacramente in any sorte but a prophanation of Holy things conteining execrable Blasphemies which al the worlde ought to abhorre Sondaye the xxij of Iuly the yeere aforesaide The Aunswere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctours sente to them by the Duke de Neuers xxij of Iuly aboute fiue of the clocke in the Euening 1566. THe Ministers afore they enter into particulare Answere to the Obiections and Reproches of the Doctours séeing in all their speaches withoute any occasion they laie vppon them imputation of blasphemie thinke good in their beginning to tel them that albeit thei haue heaped iniuries vpon them yet they holde themselues neuer the more wronged and muche lesse to be guiltie in blasphemie bicause they repute them for such no more than our Lorde Iesus Christe in the iudgemente and opinion of Caiphas the soueraigne Sacrificator and S. Stephen vppon whom the saide crime was vrged by the enimies of truthe and also Naboth notwithstanding he was innocent for it is a custome common to suche as hate the truthe and the light to blaspheme that which they vnderstande not and so yeelde to their proper and naturall furie as S. Peter Iude write that impudently they denie things moste apparante without shame confesse others that are straunge and obscure the same being offered of the Doctoures to the Ministers of whom they will heare nothing with iudgemente nor iudge their Doctrine vprightly but séeme in all the course of this Disputation either to confront them generally without respecte or at least to giue sentence without examination that what so euer they produce is either lyes or matter of blasphemie And albeit the Ministers handling the Omnipotencie of God according as they haue learned by the consent and contentes of the Scriptures agrée alwayes that he is
in the scripture it is spoken of the Diuinitie aswel as when there is speach of the Humanitie of Iesus Christ Where the Ministers say wée confesse our Canons to be false it is a manifeste slaunder For wée acknowledge no Canons if they deriue not from the Councelles and other Authentike Bookes and not as they are gathered by any particulare man as is the Compilation of Gratian to whom there is no further faith giuen than he deserues that is recited by him For Resolution of the eighth Article wée sende the Ministers to the Phisophers Schole to learne that there is in the Predicament of substaunce a Body whiche is Species of Substance and in the predicament of Quantitie an other body which is Species of quantitie and also to learne that the body which is of quantitie is Accidental and not essentiall to the body of the predicament of substance Besides the Ministers erre againste all Philosophie to call a Substance materiall incorpored But the Doctours wil not stande vpon those things and are sory they haue not to doo with men better principled in Philosophy who would 〈…〉 â—son than the Ministers doo 〈…〉 Consequence of twoo Bo◠〈…〉 be in twoo pla◠〈…〉 â—nd like in◠〈…〉 â—e if the 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 passion they woulde examine the testimonies of the Auncientes and reasons drawne from the same But by this wée proue that when there is any thing that presseth the Ministers it is then they sette a good countenaunce and make shewe to haue good righte Besides the Doctoures maruell muche howe the Ministers dare affirme that Iustine and all the Auncientes haue not put the myracle of the doores in the body of Iesus Christ séeing Iustine makes this expresse question howe it is possible that a body grosse be not let to passe throughe the doores shutte in the answere of which question they conclude it that bicause that myracle was done in the nature of the Bodye of Iesus Christe the Apostles iudged it was not a true Body but a Sprite As if the Body had bene transnatured into a sprite which Iustine saith did not happen but that withoute any chaunge of nature suche operation to passe throughe the doores shutte was giuen to the Bodye of Iesus Christs by the Omnipotencie of God as also Iustine saithe not that anye myracle was done in the Sea when Iesus walked thereuppon but that by the Almightinesse that was in him he made it portable without chaunge of the nature of his Bodye or of the Sea notwithstanding the myracle was in his Bodye whiche contrary to his nature did so walke It is not inoughe to alleage S. Hylarie that the power of God made place to the Bodye of our Lorde for he doothe not onely auouche that but addes the manner of the facte whiche is that the Bodye passed withoute chaunge or diminishing his nature or withoute any opening And yet notwithstanding he passed by the operation of the Omnipotencie whiche wroughte in his Bodye piercing the close and shutte places Nihil inquit cessit ex solido Parictum with other like speache whiche he vseth by which cannot be vnderstand any other thing than a penetration of many Bodyes S. Chrysostome disputes expressely that contrary to his nature he passed through the doores shutte aswell as out of the belly of the Virgyn without breaking neither dothe he saie simply that he is ignorante wherein consisted the facts séeing he discribes it but he amplifieth the vertue of the facte and saith that the reason and greatnesse cannot be comprehended bicause it procéeded of the power of God incomprehensible Touching al which pointes the Doctours referre themselues to the reading of the Bookes without any further debate against the Ministers who thinke alwayes to abuse the ignorance of suche as beleue them to denie or affirme what they thinke good And as we gréeue and are weary to reiterate the reasons herebefore so familiarely and clearely deduced so by the euasions of the Ministers so often repeted we are enforced eftsoones to intrude that which by common consent of the Ancients they oughte to beleue touching the Articles We much maruel of the manner of Answeres of the ministers who without regard to the matter obiected to them say what they thinke good of the pointes proponed and not answere to the Argumentes as in the Article that toucheth the byrth of Iesus Christe in the deduction whereof wée haue brought foorth many testimonies of the Auncients holding that our Lord came myraculously from the belly of his mother as he was also conceiued Wherin as the said Ancientes affirme that that Natiuitie was done withoute any breaking to the body of the Virgyn so they condemned in Heresie al such as helde the contrary whiche the Ministers séeke yet to mainteine and for al their aunswere affirme it staying as they say vppon the Scripture and dare not openly say that they reiect the iudgementes of the Aunciente and Primitiue Churche to repose vpon theire owne sense which notwithstanding appeares clearely inough in theire Answere vpon this Article wherein they falsely apply the Scripture as thoughe it conteined that in the Byrth of our Lorde A perta fuerit vulua Virginis And where thei say that that disclesing impugnes not her Corporal Virginitie by which the question is mente they bely the Resolution of the Auncientes who haue determined vppon this matter In the Article of the resurrection whether there be other matters than coniectures the reading of the Obiection of the Doctors shall witnesse the same being to be séene of suche as desire to know the truthe And where vppon the ende of the Article of the Resurrection the ministers complaine that we lay wrongs and scoffes vppon them we doubte not but they take in displeasure that their suttleties and maners of doing are discouered which if they were well knowne the world woulde not be so simplie beguiled as héeretofore they haue bene The Resolution pretended by the ministers as being not written aphantos autois but apauton is not pertinent For be it in what sort so euer our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples whether it was by sodaine vanishing away or otherwayes the which vanishing in a body present at the eie not troubled can not be done but that the body is made inuisible to them And how so euer it be the Gréeke text beares inuisible and vnseene Touching the Article for the opening of the heauens the ministers according to their custome aunswer not directly For it is not saide that the Heauens were deuided or open when he mounted thither as in the baptisme of Iesus Christ and the vision of S. Stephen but the scripture saith expressely that Christe pierced the heauens and not that the heauens disclosed to him Neither can the ministers forbeare to reproche vs in deprauing the vnderstanding of our writings the same being witnessed in this present Aunswere wherin they faine to vnderstand that in that text of the scripture importing that Christ pierced the heauens we would signifie
body yea euen his owne inuisible And that he could not bring to passe that a Camel or cable kéeping his grosenesse might passe thorow the hole of a Néedle From these is deriued the deniall of his almightinesse a blasphemie moste execrable and very atheisme These be the disordered absurdities which such are enforced to confesse that denye the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultare which the Doctors pray may be well considered by the Readers of this present cautele Where the ministers in the last Article of their Answer chalenge vs for calling Faith an humaine worke seeing it is of God that is not to be maruelled in them no more than a numbre of other truthes which séeme straunge to them bicause their Doctrine is grounded vpon the foundation of error amongst the which this is not least in degrée that man hath not a frée will and that for a man to thinke well to wil well and to do well dothe not worke with God contrary to many places of the Scripture which settes a man woorking with God bothe for his Faithe and workes and receiues recompence for the same which shall be more aptly handled in an other place without varying from the matter We are very glad the Ministers confesse that the Auncientes neuer saide that a body was in two places which is true but the reason they giue why they haue not saide it is of the forge and inuention of the Ministers they might tel vs as muche out of the testimonie of scripture wherin is no more founde than in the writings of the Auncients wherof we haue sundry times warned the said ministers who chalenge to groūd all their Doctrine vpon Gods woorde If the ministers at the beginning had confessed the truthe of the omnipotencie or that they would haue acknowledged that Christe might bring to passe that his body mighte be on high and néere below in the Sacrament really and truely if he would we had no néede to handle the questions passed which notwithstanding contain no small consequence as the ministers estéeme the same appearing by the wrytings of the Auncients who haue handled those places with great diligence and with them haue aided themselues againste the heretikes But bicause the ministers wil not agrée that God may bring to passe that one bodie be in diuers places at one instante And that if they had begon to shewe his will to be suche as to ordaine that the body of Iesus Christe might be in heauen and in the sacrament they might haue sayde as is the opinion of these of their secte that God would it not bicause he could it not And albeit we had rather treate first of the omnipotencie than of the wil so séeing the first hath ben sufficiently handled we are nowe in minde to proue that Iesus Christe woulde and did ordaine his body to be in diuers places in the proofe wherof we will enter into the first conference after we vnderstande the fansie of the Ministers what they helde in their Churche touching this matter to the ende we trauaile not in vaine as iudging that they folowe not the opinion of Caluine and Beza for which cause we say they muche abused the people faining to teache according to the Custome and Direction of the Refourmed Churche and yet in their Aunsweres they declare the contrarie Where they holde themselues righte happie to endure suche reproches as to be estéemed seducers by vs Let them remember that all sectes may say as much as they but whether it be righte or wrong we shall make séene by the examination of their Doctrine The Resolution of the Doctoures touching the Article of Gods omnipotencie as for the regarde of the foure Questions proponed by them to the Ministers the same seruing to the vnderstanding of the Reall presence of the Bodie and Bloud of Iesus Christe in the holy Sacrament ALl men disposed with patience to runne thorowe the scriptures and beginning from Abraham the Father of the Faithfull euen vntill the laste wryting of the Apostles shall finde that the very roote and fountaine of all infidelitie ordinarily was in hauing regarde to the propretie of creatures and common order of nature as to gainesay and enter into doubt and distrust of the woorde of God. In respecte of which reason Tertullian and other firste Christians saide wel that the Philosophers and suche as depended vppon naturall things were the Fathers of Heretikes bicause the contemplation of nature engendred almost al heresies of the contrary men may perceiue that the omnipotencie of God is proponed by the scriptures as a knife cutting in sunder all argumentes which might come of naturall reasons as to take a certaine and last resolution to beléeue al that is written and imported by the said woord of God albeit it séeme impossible and incomprehensible to all creatures and that our Faithe might rest vppon the same power in all doutes what so euer All the difficulties that Abraham made vppon the promises which God made to him proceeded of certaine impossibilities of nature which he saw in himselfe in his wife wherin it séemes that his cōsideration stretched no further til God vsed his authoritie and said to him I am God almightie since warning of God Abraham forgate all regardes to the propreties of his nature and tooke holde of this buckler of faith which is to knowe and fully persuade himselfe that God is almightie to whome nothing is hard or impossible And after this when there was question to slea his onely sonne notwithstanding he had greate apparance of contradiction in nature and in the woord of God giuen to him which was that from the séede of that sonne should issue one that should blisse all nations and yet he must kill him afore he had any linage discending of his bodie yet he did not contest as opposing this contradiction of nature and of the woord of God to maintaine that which had bene saide and promised him was impossible but he had recourse to the pilloure of the Faithe of the Faithfull as S. Paule to the Hebrues which is to the omnipotencie with this persuasion that God had the meane to make the one and the other true as to make his Sonne die and raise him vp againe to the ende to drawe out of him afterwarde linage and posteritie albeit as then there had bene no example of the Resurrection Likewise the consideration of creatures and the order of nature which Moises saw before him made him fal into infidelitie but God shewed him his fault when he denyed that he was able to nourish the people long with flesh séeing the nature of the deserte did not beare it warning him to raise vp his spirite to the almightinesse against nature and there to settle and assure his Faithe Moyses saide Héere be sixe hundred thousande people in the midst of whom I am and thou hast said I wil giue them fleshe to the ende they eate a whole
only he could do it but also he would do it and so consequently are determined to refute all the blasphemies heresies of the supposed reformed side which are contained in the supper to the ende also we be not thought to eschue the combate of the supper the Masse as the ministers haue reproched to vs protesting notwithstanding to kéepe in meaning that after we haue concluded resolued vpon this matter to returne to the examination of the moÌ„strous errors of the ministers which containe great numbers against the other Articles of the Créede which the ministers feare by all likelihoode in that they are not willing we pursue the order begon as foreseeing that in the next conference we wold open vnto them an other blasphemie maintained by the reformed church against the bountie of God according to Caluines doctrine which is that God works in the reprobate the euill sinne which they coÌ„mit which is an execrable atheisme no lesse than the denial of gods omnipoteÌ„cie and in like sort as such as shal read these coÌ„ferences if they continue to the end discussing of the ministers errors their religion against al the articles of the Créede shall maruel to vnderstand the absurdities blasphemies discending from them so yet there is an other point the drawes the ministers to demaund the disputation of the supper which is that they haue al their matter redily prepared by many of their sect which haue written therof as especially they will not want the great Booke of Peter Martir by which they are furnished with sundrie infamous obiections certaine texts of the Ancients either cut of depraued or euil applied to impugne in shew the truth of the body in the sacrament but to the defense of all their other errors they are very slenderly prouided wherin their coÌ„science is a sufficient witnesse that by the scripture iudgmeÌ„t of general councels coÌ„mon consent of the authorities of the ancients they are coÌ„uinced condeÌ„ned of their errors against the said Créede But to enter into the supper of the ministers we say it is a prophane eating drinking not differing from the coÌ„mon eating drinking sauing that it is so much the worse as they abuse the holy institution of the supper of Iesus and pollute and defile such their banket withal impietie blasphemie we maintaine also that they do great wrong to the sacrament of Iesus Christe to attribute falsly to suche their banker so prophane and defiled the name of sacrament And to the ende to proue it more cleare we aske them if they receiue a common doctrine allowed not only in the catholike church but also of all the sects which are separated froÌ„ it the same is that in the confection of sacramentes there be two things essentiall and necessary the matter or the element and the woorde Secondly what word is necessary with the element to coÌ„stitute a sacrament namely that which they cal the sacrament of the supper and whether they must vse certain woords or not Thirdly if the woorde haue any vertue or efficacie in this sacrament and what And if it worke any thing in the matter of bread and wine Fourthly whether by the same woord the consecration be made of the matter of the sacrament or not In the fifth place if by the woord there be not made consecration of the matter that is howe the same consecration is made and by what vertue the sacrament is made For the sixth if bisides the bread wine and the spirituall graces benefites of Iesus Christ is receiued in the supper really the true body bloud of Iesus Christe in his propre substance not only in spirituall effect vpon this Article we require of the ministers an open confession of faithe We ask further if in receiuing the bread afore they take the wine they receiue by the eating of the bred the body bluâ— of Iesus Christ or only the body to beâ—â—â—rt if they admit that which the diuines cal a concomitance of the body bloud of Iesus Christ We aske also if the supper bisides the assurance it giues them of participation in the flesh of Iesus Christ in their redemption do woorke in them reâ—ission of sinne We aske lastly if by the supper there is receiued any thing which can not be receiued oute of the Supper or if withoute taking of breade to goe to the Supper or to assist it may be receiued as muche of the body and graces of Iesus Christ as if they did assist the supper We will debate afterwards the other Articles contained in the laste pamphelet of the ministers bicause the former demaundes are to be first examined as grounds of the other Articles proponed by the ministers For the rest after the supper of the ministers is confuted and the Real presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the sacrament confirmed we will procéede by order and withoute confusion to teache clearely by the pure and moste expresse woorde of God that the Masse was instituted said by Iesus Christe and that also he commaunded his Apostles to say it which they did according to the ordinaunce of their Maister That the Masse is a true sacrifice of the Euangelical law That suche as reiecte the Masse and admit no outwarde sacrifice in the Church nor priesthoode are without true law and without true Religion and therefore worse than Idolatrers That the Masse is of value to obtaine remission of sinnes fauoure and grace of God and that it is of value bothe for the quicke and the dead That it is no abuse in the Church if the Priest communicate alone in the Masse when the assistantes will not communicate with him That suche commit horrible blasphemie which call the woorshipping of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament the worshipping of breade and wine and falsly doe they call such veneration of the body of Iesus Christ idolatrie To be short there is nothing in the masse as it is celebrated in the Church at this day which is not good and holy in it selfe and conformable to the woorde of God. We require the ministers to Aunswere to the demaunds héere before written pertinently clearly and by order Sunday .28 of Iulie the years aforesaide The Aunswere of the Ministers to the vvryting of the Doctors sent to them by the Duke of Nyuernois the .28 of Julie .1566 about .7 of the clocke in the Euening THe Doctors in the beginning of their writing reproche vs as that in our complainte against them we imitate the Donatistes wherin they iustifie oure former iudgement and opinion of them that the moste parte of their wrytings swarmed more with matters of repeticion iniuries scoffes and inuectiues than with argumentes and good reasons like as also the example of the Donatistes becomes them farre better than vs bicause the Donatistes soughte to restraine the name of the Churche who comprehendes vniuersally all the chosen and Faithfull that eyther
persuaderi As also Tertullian Duritia haeretica vincenda est non suadenda And touching the iniuries which the ministers multiplie in this behalf against vs in that they folowe all the aduersaries to the truthe and giue good testimonie what disquiet of minde suche kinde of people suffer when their errors are laid afore them of whom such is our pitie that we pray God to restore them to their good minde as knowing that the Conuersion of an heretike is one of the things reserued to the omnipotencie of God. The ministers labor in vaine to produce much Gréeke to shew that penetrare coelos signifieth not to passe the Heauens without opening bicause this verbe Dierchestai is found to passe where is opening But we neuer said that penetrare or Dierchestai can not be applied to places opened or that in opening them they were pierced thorow For we know in all Authors that doth encounter We said that as the ministers would inferre the Reall opening of the heauen by the rigor and propretie of the verbe aperire so might they alleage that the heauens were shutte in the Ascention of Iesus Christe by the verbes Dierchestai and penetrare signifying with rigor to pierce or passe thorowe without that of it selfe it importe opening notwithstanding it may be vsed where is a place open But by the rigour of their signification opening can not be necessarily inferred if by some woorde from else where or euident condition of the thing that is pierced the opening be not shewed as it is in the textes alleaged by the ministers In the Ascention these Verbes Dierchestai and penetrare be vsed as to pierce neither is any woord added which imports diuision of the heauens whose condition nor the estate of the glorified bodie of Iesus Christe doe not enforce any necessary vnderstanding of opening to be made to suffer the saide body of Christe to enter Therfore we argued of the rigor of penetrare as the ministers did of the wresting of aperwe which is founde in the scripture and not to signifie a Reall opening of the heauens more often than penetrare is red in the Scripture to signifie diuision or actuall seperation of the heauens for eperire coelos is founde very often for spirituall and imaginatiue opening and penetrare coelos is scarcely euer taken for actuall diuision of the Heauens And therfore better was our reason to conclude by the rigor of the verbe Dierchestai or penetrare to passe without actual diuision of the heauens than the ministers to infer the opening of the same by wresting the Verbe aperire In the last Article the ministers obiecte to vs to haue passed ouer certaine places of scripture by which appeares that Faithe is a woorke of God whereunto we say that in some of our wrytings we haue expresly confessed that Faithe in that it is a gifte of God is a woorke of god But in that he that beléeues woorkes with God in beléeuing for Nemo credit nisi volens it is a humaine worke and it is not repugnāt one selfe woorke for diuers considerations to be a woorke of God and a woorke of man And where they bring the Auncientes to haue sayde if not in propretermes yet in like that God can not bring to passe that a body be in diuers places that is false for they neuer either coulde or can shewe it as also they gainesay their laste wryting for bringing the reason why the Auncientes saide it not in expresse termes they alleaged it was bicause they neuer thoughte suche absurditie coulde fall into the braine of man which reason oughte to take place as well to speake it in termes like as in expresse termes séeing it is one selfe thing signified as wel by the one as by the other For the rest the ministers neuer Aunswere to the principall whereof they haue bene often warned and eftsoones we doe admonishe them although they terme a thousande times our spéeche matter of repetition it is that we require them to bring scripture to proue that it impugnes the order established in the world the truthe wisdome omnipotencie and immoueable wil of God one body to be in two places which they can not doe but Aunswere according to their custome nothing wherein may be discerned that their Doctrine is not founded vppon Gods woorde but vpon their propre opinion or particulare inspiration which can not be but of Sathan for being contrary to the common consent of the vniuersall Churche it can not be of the holy Ghost And vppon the same are founded also the other Articles of their Religion albeit they disguise and promisse at euery woord the word of God. A short aduertisement of the Doctors vpon the resolution of the Ministers touching the omnipotencie of God. WE maruaile of the maner of spéeche and writing vsed by the Ministers who since the beginning of the conference could neuer endure to pursue conclude one onelye point without entermedling of others which belonged nothing to the matter of the question as maye appeare by the reading of their Actes Wherein afore they set downe their resolution of Gods omnipotencie they heaped together as many Articles as they coulde remember and thrust them one vppon an other withoute occasion and reason Notwithstanding vpon their owne request we had set afore them articles of the Supper yea to the intent that after we had disputed of the almightynesse of God to make present the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the holye Sacrament we might discende by order into the declaration and proofe that suche was Gods wyll and also that he is there But we are not ignorant of the good customes of those of the religion pretended reformed to blow in the eyes of the Christians all the articles of their religion together with the polutions they inuent thereupon all vppon one lyne to the ende nothing be determined but all rest in confusion and that the Serpent runne away when he hath vomited his poyson Besides by the obseruation of their aunswers it is to bée discerned that they neuer rested vpon any certaine and selfe aunswer But to euerye question they haue returned aunswers no lesse diuers than impertinent and sometimes not to be suffered of the which we giue warning to all suche as shall reade the conferences and laying our selues vppon their iudgement beséeche them to haue good regard to the doinges of the Ministers side Moreouer we tell the Ministers that either they may or ought to know that all the sectes of our time bleare the eyes of such as they meane to blinde with the selfe same traine of articles which they haue gathered together in their resolution and that to obtaine audience in the catholike Churche and to bring in theyr errours and heresies vnder the name of Gods glory Of the which they vaunt them selues to be protectors no lesse than the Ministers wherein lyke as notwithstandyng all these they are not to be receiued or allowed in their opinions and conclusions so the Ministers cā not
pretend any right to exalt the power glorye of God by such a confusion and hotchpotche of all matters together Moreouer we let the Ministers vnderstande that wyth better reason we could returne vppon them the conclusion they pretende to inferre of the subtiltye and art of Sathan the same being as they write that vnder a godlye pretence of pietie Sathan in the maner of a Serpent slides into the Church of God to the ende to plant their disorder and at last to set vpon euen God himselfe Let euerye one sée and consider in himselfe if this be not the true enterprise of the Ministers both by their deductions and generallye the principall poyntes of their doctrine For vnder a farie pretence to roote vp certayne abuses and errours whiche falsely they séeke to persuade the world to be in the catholike Church against Gods word and vnder colour of preaching that they searche to exalt the name of the Lord they go about to dispoyle God of hys properties and perfections notwithstanding they declare it not no more than Sathan opened his intent to the first man. The Ministers besides deface the merite and efficacye of the blood of Iesus Christ and by their doctrine open the gate to all vices and synne For proofe wherof albeit we should spare to repeate what they haue holden of the power of God yet their writinges stand as their accusers onelye in good resolution although they vtter faire spéeche God can doe no more as they holde than it pleaseth them to receiue of hys wysedome and wyll which they disguise after their sense when it is founde declared in the scripture Agaynst the bountye of God they hold that he is author and worker of euyll and synne Against his mercy they teache that he neyther doth nor wyll pardon a man that hath impugned by malice the knowledge of the truth or resisted it Against the merite of the blood of Iesus Christ and passion of the crosse they haue written in proper tearmes that if Iesus Christ had dyed onelye by the anguishes of corporall death and the effusion of all his bloud he had done nor profited nothing for our redemption If being vpon the crosse and afore hys death he had not endured the payne of the damned in his soule with other horrible blasphemies contayned in the article of his discention in to hell They instruct also their adherentes that manslaughter adultery robbery theft sacriledge and all other crime what soeuer are but veniall synnes to the predestinate whom they say are neuer out of Gods grace whatsoeuer they do Assuring their faythfull and such as stand in their Church to beleue constantly that they be in grace and predestinate which in playne spéeche though they would otherwyse excuse it is to giue full licence to do all euyll With sundry other articles whiche we intende to verifie as the matter requires But if they denye these poyntes to bée wrytten and published in their secte the places in Calums bookes which we haue noted in the Margent are to giue witnesse In effect that is the glorye of God and hys Sonne Iesus Christ whereunto the Ministers incline and tende by the extirping of the pretended impieties mencioned in manye articles of their last resolution To aunswer the which in short spéeche we saye that some are spitefullye and falselye layed vppon the catholyke Churche by the Ministers others be expresselye written in holye Scripture and others drawne out of the same and confirmed by the tradition of the Apostles and vniuersall consent of the first Christian churche except the slaunderous impositions which in euery article the Ministers doo adde And so in tyme and place we wyll declare and proue by péecemeale if the pacience of the Ministers wyll consent to handle euerye difficultie in hys place But if they continue to cauell withall to put confusion in the doctrine we protest to aunswer them with scoffes For the rest they bable much of Gods power in general alledging that we ought to take certaine knowledge of it by the Scriptures whiche wée haue alwayes aduowed vnto them They say also that it is infinite and incomprehensible but when we offer particularities to knowe wherein omnipotencie consistes then they forget the holye scriptures and without them measure it according to the wisdome and eternall wyll of God and the order established in the world yea and as if they were without all remembraunce that that almightynesse were infinite they wrest it to a condition propertie and naturall order of creatures as if to do anye thing against or aboue the order condition and naturall propertye of the sayd creatures were a thing repugnaunt to the wysedome nature and wyll of god This is the short resolution which we may gather of their opinion touching the omnipotencie of God the same appearing in their papers and answers giuen to vs wherin touching S. Augustine produced by them we haue sufficiently aunswered before Where the Ministers lay vpon vs to hold as a sufficient argument that a case being done of God declares that hée could do it we referre our selues to our writinges whereof our resolution and obiections containe all the contrarye We are also slaundered by the Ministers to affirme that faith contrarieth nature euery way onely we sayd that ordinarily the contradiction done to fayth founded vppon the worde procéedes of the consideration of thinges naturall against the power of God. Touching Abraham the scripture of Genesis wytnesseth alwayes that hée and hys wyse made a certaine difficultye touching the promise of God and considered corpus suum emortuum et mortuam vuluam Sarâ—ae vntyll he hearde the assurance of the omnipotencie as also S. Paule speakes ynough of Abraham since his first vocation till after that assurance without putting distinction in the historye of that which was afore or after suche assuraunce according to the saying of the Apostle that he did not consider corpus suum emortuum resting vpon the assurance of the power and promise which had bene made to him We say we haue better concluded touching the fayth we ought to haue of the power of God to make one body in diuers places than the Ministers who haue no woord of God to assure their faith and beliefe that God cannot do it or that it impugnes his wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea onely the nature of a simple body But touching all this the Ministers truste in their presumption and particular reuelation without one onely place of the scripture whereupon they maye settle or rest their opinion Where of the contrary we haue grounded our faith not onely touching the power of God to bring to passe that a body be in diuers places but also to beleue the fact and that God would it so vpon the holye Scripture as appeares in our resolution together with the places of the auncientes alledged for that purpose the same being so manifest that as the Ministers are not able to gainsay them so
the former And albeit the Prophetes and Apostles had not written at al the church notwithstanding had bene grounded vpon their foundation as it was in the time of Abraham and afore there were any Scripture which if it had bene necessary to saluation it had bene put among the Articles of Faithe Aunsvvere The Ministers holde this Replie muche more impertinent and touching the reason that is added that Faithe was in the time of Abraham albeit there was no woorde written they accorde to it But this is euil inferred there is no woorde written then there is no woorde at all And it is a fallax in argument which the Dialecticians name a Dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter from a saying modified to that is simplie saide The fourth day of disputation being Friday the tvvelfth of Julie THe Ministers aduouche to cleane alwaies to their former request obseruing the Protestations aforesaide made by the Doctoures who haue twise declared that they assembled not but to satisfie the Lord of Montpensier and the Ladie Buillon according also to whose request publikely made in the company to be instructed vpon the point of the Supper and not in other matters wherein shée accompts her selfe sufficiently taught and hath no neede of more ample instruction and therefore the saide Ministers require as afore that the first pointe which they should conferre vpon might be the supper and the masse the rather for that they vnderstoode by people woorthy of faith and credite that the Doctoures meant nothing lesse than to enter disputation vpon that grounde Héereupon the Doctoures say they are ashamed to heare so often Protestacions and that the Ministers séeme to féede with suche fashions of purpose to eschue conference in the Articles of their Confession which notwithstanding they haue oftentimes offered to be examined And where they alleage that the Ladie of Buillon for whose instruction the companie is assembled hathe openly required to be instructed vppon the Article of the Masse and not otherwayes They Aunswere that shée put out a motion to procure conference of the Masse but they neuer heard that shée helde hir selfe sufficiently instructed touching the other Articles If the Duchesse will confesse that shee beléeues all the other Articles proponed by the Ministers and their likes against the doctrine of the Catholike church to be erronious they are ready from the present to enter into conference of the Masse But of the contrary if shee be imbrued with the erroures impugning the doctrine of the Catholike church in respect to vse order appertaining to instructoures and to lay the foundations of the Masse the Doctours are determined according to the good and holy desire of the Lorde of Montpensier to Catechise and teache the Lady his Daughter euery Article and by order They say further that the Ministers are infected with the custome of those of their Church which is that to eschue alwayes conference with the Catholikes afore the decision of the poynt proponed they thrust an other into disputation according to the example of Beza and other ministers that were with him at Poyssi who séeing the matter of the Supper was argued against them in the Priours chamber at Poissi in the presence of the Quéene Princes of the bloud and other Lordes of the Councell made Request many times to let fall that point indecided and enter vppon others more euident and manifest againste the Catholikes as of Images and other like And of the contrary the Ministers this day to auoide the great erroures in their interpretation of the Créede will foiste in the pointe of the Supper onely the Doctoures beséeche as before that confusion auoided Religion may be examined by order And leaste it be thought that the Doctoures refuse to enter conference of the Masse and Supper according to their constante meaning as in déede vnder generall correction they neuer denied to dispute of them the better to instructe the Duchesse and with more spéede they are readie to dispute with open voice and euident Declaration by the expresse woorde of God that Iesus Christe hath instituted and saide the Masse and his Apostles also They offer also that what so euer shall be deliuered by voice and spéeche touching this matter to be sette downe in wryting the next dayes after and put in order as the instruction of the Duchesse requires it Referring themselues for the day to the oportunitie of the Ladie Héere the Ministers made Aunswere that all these offers were superfluous and vnprofitable because suche conferences are but debates and alterations offending and slaundering more than they edifie Resolution of the Doctoures THe Doctors according to the order already begon and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and then yéelde Resolution for the instruction of the Duchesse of Buillon Touching the two pointes proponed yesterday whether the Apostles be Authoures of the Créede and why we ought to giue Faithe thereunto say it ought not to be estéemed a thing indifferent to knowe if the Apostles made and erected the Créede no more than to know if the Apostles be the Authors of their wrytings For as their Authoritie is farre greater in the assuraunce that they procéede certainely from the Apostles euen so of the contrary it should be lesse by many degrées ▪ if we either doubted of it or vsed it as indifferent They say further it is no sufficient reason to cal this Créede Apostolicall and to Christen it by the name of the Apostles in respecte of the conformitie it hath with their writings seeing that by the same reason other Simbols as that of Niceus Athanasius suche other like writings may beare also the name of the apostles Creede as containing a doctrine agréeing with the writings of the Apostles and therfore the Doctors say we must beleeue that the Apostles haue made deliuered to Christians this Créede and applie faith to it as being a wryting composed by the Apostles for proofe whereof they haue the aucthoritie of all times since the Apostles till now that this Creede hath bene proponed in Baptisme and Catechisme as appeareth by the Authors which haue bene from the Apostles til our time neither can we name or note any Author or Councell which hathe made this Créede that afore the same Author or Councel euen vntill we come immediatly to the Apostles this Simboll hath not bene proponed in Baptisme and Catechisme and called amongste Christians the rule of Faithe which our such argument S Augustine in many places against the Donatistes estéemes inuincible to proue that something there is of the Apostles Omitting willingly for wearinesse sake other Auncientes who acknowledged this Créede to be made and receyued namely of the saide Apostles as S. Ambrose S. Ierome and others Touching the second pointe the Doctoures say that the bonde and necessitie to beléeue this Simboll dependes not of the knowledge of the Apostolicall or Propheticall wrytings nor of the knowledge of their conformitie with them for it was
1. Cor. Cap. 11. Whereunto howe so euer the Ministers Aunswere the Doctoures desire that the text of Caluine together with the reasons which he brings of the holy spirite may be well weighed and considered They Obiect further that the Ministers in their Supper attribute more to the humaine vertue than to the omnipotencie of God yea they doe more than God coulde doe as in that they vaunt to doe a thing by their Faith which implies contradiction saying in their Confession of Faithe exhibited at Poissi to the Bishoppes which were in the congregation that Faith makes things absent present at one instant in one place that is in the soules of the Faithfull when they make the supper the same being as much as if they had saide that faith makes things not present present in one time place so as to euery Faithful man in the Supper comming woorthily the Body of Iesus Christe is there present in vertue of Faith And yet is he not there present as themselues holde saying He is but in Heauen wherein maye be séene implication of contradiction that is presente and not presente Really neither can it serue to any purpose a little stippe or scape whiche they saide to vs that the body of Christe is on high corporally but in the hearts of the Faithfull in the supper spiritually For the spiritualitie can not take away the substance of the thing and their Faith can not bring to passe that a body is not a body and that a body hathe not his dimensions as they haue saide héere before Therefore in what sorte so euer they confesse that the Faithfull in the Supper receiue the substance of the body of Iesus Christe into their soules they muste necessarily and willingly confesse that either their Faithe is more mightie than the vertue and infinite power of God or else that God can bring to passe that his body shall be locally in Heauen and Sacramentally Really notwithstanding and substancially in the Sacrament of the Aultare in which pointe the Doctoures desire to heare the Ministers and after to sette downe their Aunswere by writing The Ministers can neuer shewe by the woorde of God that their Faithe can bring to passe that in one instant and in one place a thing shall be present and not present And it is as muche to say a thing present and not present by Faithe as to say the body of Iesus Christe is in a Faithfull man and is not Neither néede there to be put any chanell of the power of the holy Spirite to make the Fleshe of Iesus Christe slide from Heauen hither if the saide Fleshe were not but in Heauen and yet come to vs. And touching the poyntes which the Doctoures haue obiected that Peter Martyr and Theodore de Beza were the first that saide that God could not bring to passe that one body might be in two places which newe Doctrine the Ministers would confirme by antiquitie we not name it otherwayes than blasphemie The Doctors say that many times they haue prayed the ministers not to lose time to the end things might be better cleared to say nothing that were not to purpose which notwithstanding they alleage forthwith the testimonies of the fathers to shew that a body by nature is circumscript naturally can not be in many places but the same authors speake nothing that God is able to do it And yet S. Augustine and others in their places recited by the Doctors touching the Article of the doores being shutte witnesse that by the power of God two bodies may occupie one place which containes the like difficultie and when it comes to the profe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Christ they are to shew euidently that all the auncients wholly which haue spoken of the Sacrament haue not onely confessed hys abilitie to bring to passe that his body was on highe in heauen and héere belowe in the Sacrament but also they with one accorde haue aduouched to beléeue according to the woorde of Iesus Christe that he is in Heauen and heere in the Sacrament The Doctoures demaunde of the Ministers if any afore Peter Martyr and Theodore de Beza haue denyed this power of God whome they maruell not if they so muche magnifie séeing of them they haue taken all the places alleaged For the Article that begins where the Doctours pretende that the forme c the Doctoures say this forme is common as often as the power of God is debated vppon neither can she proofe be better guided than to folowe the woorde of the Aungell that there is nothing impossible to God From which when any thing is exempted there is alleaged the selfe same that the Ministers inferre that there is a repugnancie of things wherof folowes an implication of contradiction as did the auncient Heretikes against the Fleshe of Iesus Christe alleaging alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature doing the like againste the Article of Resurrection and Incarnation as if there had bene contradiction that God was man man was God As shall be easie to a wicked mind to forge alwayes some contradiction in his spirite according to the propreties of nature for the Article beginning wher the Doctors alleage that God can change c The Doctoures say they haue not well conceiued their meaning For they take for a thing absurde that a substance resting affected of his qualities may by Gods power haue effectes contrary to his qualities As if God coulde not bring to passe by his omnipotencie that the fire possessing his natural heat in place to burne do refreshe and qualifie which no man of sounde iudgement and a Christian would not denie For the Article touching the limitation of the povver c the Doctoures say it séemes by the Aunswere of the Ministers that Gods power is limitted according to his will which is as muche to say as God can not but that which he willes which is manifestly false Touching the Hebrue alleaged it séemes the Ministers haue desire to shewe their skill therein For suche recitall is nothing to purpose resting principally vpon the woorde danar which is as muche to say as a thing but it meanes not that we oughte to vnderstand it as a thing done the sense of the place is suche by the woorde shall any thing be hid from me And bicause harde things be hid and things impossible also more hid they haue therefore turned is there any thing hard or impossible to me which Pagninus and other interpreters of the Hebrue tonge shew well that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctoures had not made Aunswere to this but to make it knowne that they are not astonied at one woorde of Hebrue For the Article beginning touching the daunger c the Doctours say they are but woordes superfluous and what so euer the Ministers were able to produce others mighte vse againste them And where they say it is a reproche in that they