Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	apostolical_a	church_n	tradition_n	4,989	5	9.5918	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30189	An answer to two treatises of Mr. Iohn Can, the leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam the former called, A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, proved by the Nonconformists principles : the other, A stay against straying : wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson, he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the ministers of the Church of England ... / by the late learned, laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ, John Ball.	Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.	1642 (1642)	Wing B558; ESTC R3127	281,779	264

13.2 15.2 Col. 4.11 Iames 5.14 Epiphan haeres 27. Ignat. ad Tralleus Sozom. li. 4. ca. 14. Euseb hist lib. 6. cap. 10 11. Gr. ca. 9. lat Gratian. Decret part 2. cap 7. qu. 1. can 12. And it is to be remembred that in Rome Corinth Ephesus Philippi Colosse Thessalonica and such other Cities inhabited by Christians there were more Pastours than one which did in common governe all the Churches within that Citie and there was not any one Pastour who by himselfe governed a certaine part of the Citie peculiarly assigned to his charge Thus also the Ancients write that Peter and Paul were the first Bishops and Apostles at Rome Paul had Linus and Timothy Peter Clemens and Anacletus Liberius and Felix both governed the Apostolicall Seat Valerius and Augustine Narcissus and Alexander in the Church of Hippo. It is apparent the Apostles ordained many Overseers in one societie and it is not repugnant either to Scripture or reason to thinke there might be many Pastours of one flocke And the flocke might be one under the joynt care of many Shepheards Bilson perpet Gover ca. 10. pa. 155. Every church with them had many Prophets Pastours and Teachers the number and neede of the people and time so requiring T. C. repl l. pa. 34. though they did not ordinarily meete together in one place For to assemble together in one place is meerely accidentall to the unitie of a societie Certaine it is in times of persecution they cannot so meete and it is most probable in the Apostles times many Churches were too populous in that manner to assemble together Those that know the state of France in time of persecution doe well understand that every Church almost was gathered of Townes whereof some were six miles some seven some more from the place of meeting and keeping their Congregations And therefore could not meete so often nor know one another so well as we by the grace of God may doe Fourthly No one Pastour or Teacher hath the power of the censures belonging unto him and whether the power of dispensing the Seales belong to every Minister of the Gospell I leave it to your consideration for I know not what you will resolve but the actuall dispensation of the Seales may be forborne by some to whom the right of dispencing doth appertaine specially when there be others at hand to doe that office The Apostles had power to baptize 1 Cor. 1.14 15 16. Can. Neces of Separat pag. 236. but we may well thinke they did not ordinarily baptize themselves It is possible you say a man may be a true Ecclesiasticall Officer and yet never doe the services thereof Fifthly The Minister of the Gospell is not made absolutely a Minister by the choice or election of this or that people but onely their Minister for the time of his abode and continuance with them Lay these things together and then your exceptions against the office of Lecturers will vanish For if they have not the chiefe charge or cure of soules they be not sole Pastours or Teachers of the flocke but joyned in care or charge with others as Helpers or Assistants or chosen by the people to supply the want of such as should but doe not feed the flocke If they dispence not the Seales neither is that necessary in respect of their standing for right and power from Christ they have to dispence them but in the execution of that power they may be hindred or forbeare it for a time If they leave their place being lawfully called to another flocke it may be with consent of the societie and of the Church and what then doth make it unlawfull or if the charge should be unlawfull it doth not make the Ministery strange or new which is the thing in question SECT II. THat Ministery which is instituted and set up besides those which God hath appointed in his Word Neces of Separat pag. 51 52. is unlawfull and false But the Ministery of Lecturers in England is instituted and set beside these which God hath appointed in his Word Therefore that Ministery is unlawfull and false The proposition is plaine and undeniable and we have their owne words to confirme it For thus they say All the Ministery is by the Word of God and not left to the will of man to devise at their pleasure as appeareth by that which is noted of John where the Pharisees comming to him after that he had denied to be either Christ or Elias or another Prophet conclude if he be neither Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptizest thou Which had been no good argument if John might have been of other function than of those which were ordinary in the Church T. C. repl 1. pa. 62 63. and instituted of God c. Againe to devise another Ministery than that which God hath appointed is condemned by the second Commandement The Assumption is thus proved First if their Lecturers have taken ordination from the Bishops and exercise by that power onely then is their office false by the reasons before laid downe Secondly If it be objected that they never received the Prelates orders or have repented thereof I answer This proves not that they are therefore true Ministers For as Jehu though he did well to suppresse Ahabs idolatrie yet in that he followed the wayes of Jeroboam he himselfe continued still a grosse Idolater Even so howsoever some may privately report that they stand Ministers by no relation to the Bishops yet are they notwithstanding unlawfull Ministers seeing they were never elected chosen ordained according to Gods Word If any reply that they have their calling of the people I answer the thing is surely otherwise as shall be manifested presently But if this were granted yet I deny that any Church under heaven hath power from Christ to ordaine such a kinde of Ministery and therefore if any people should doe it seeing it is against the Scripture it must needs follow that it is an unlawfull Ministery and so consequently not to be communicated with ANSVVER YOu are strangely taken with this note for you have brought nothing but a bare repetition of what you have said over and over If you speake of the substantiall and essentiall parts of the Ministery it is freely granted that the true Ministery is by the word of God and heavenly But if you extend it to every circumstantiall order whereby in this or that Societie the Minister is to execute the function he hath received of God it is not approved But of this you need not to have made so many words To your assumption answer hath been returned already First That the Ministers of the Gospell receive their office and authoritie neither from the Bishop Patron people or Colledge Ecclesiasticall but from Christ immediately whose servants they are in whose name they minister whose flocke they attend and who hath assigned them their worke And if you receive your Ministery from the people as

no this is evident your inferences in this point are not correspondent to their Principles nor can be deduced from them as in the beginning you promised And then upon what bottome doth this reason stand or by what prop is it underset but your own bare affirmation which is much too weake to beare so great a weight Whosoever meanes z Can. Neces of Separat pag. 210. you say to settle well the conscience especially in a maine point of faith and Religion ought necessarily to bring good proofes from Scripture for the things whereof he speaketh For otherwise men must give no trust unto his words or if they doe it must be unadvisedly And what thinke you then if men upon your bare word give credit unto this argument is it not unadvised You bid a Bilson difference part 1. pag. 20. What we say without proofe reject you without answer If that rule may stand we need no further confutation of the rest of your Apologie for there besides taunts termes I see nothing prove the contrary if any man be able But that is not to ground the conscience upon Gods truth If your assertion be not taught in holy Scripture it is an unwritten tradition an humane invention a dreame of your owne in your conceit false worship and flat Idolatry though your opposites be able to say nothing against it but this that it is not taught of God What the Nonconformists will say to this argument you know not but hitherto they have said nothing or as good as nothing It is well you say not both Propositions are theirs as you doe in the former with as little truth as if you had said it here But if you had perused their writings against Separation as you have observed what sharp words they let fall against the corruptions in our Church and Liturgie you might have knowne that they say somewhat and somewhat to the purpose not worthy your answer but what can never be truly answered First Discipline they say is taken two wayes First Largely for the whole order pertaining to the gathering and governing of a Church the ordering of divine worship and manner of men And in this sense b Bilson perpet Ch. govern cap. 1. pag. 3. Order and Discipline the very nurse and mother of all peace and quietnesse as well in divine as in humane Societies assemblies though it be not the life or spirit that quickneth the Church yet doth it fasten and knit the members thereof as joynts and sinewes do the parts of our bodies Id. ca. 9. The Gospell must be preached the Sacramēts must be frequented for which purpose some must be taken to the publique service and ministery of the Church c. Neither onely the lack of the Word and Sacraments but the prophanation and abuse of either how greatly doth it endanger the state and welfare of the whole Church of Christ yea the casting of holy things to dogs and of pearles before swine how dreadfull a judgement doth it procure as well to the consenters as presumers A little Leaven sowreth the whole masse So that power to send Labourers into Gods harvest and to separate prophane persons for defiling the mysteries and assemblies of the faithfull must be retained and used in the Church of Christ unlesse we will turne the house of God into a den of theeves c. Act. 2.41 42.44 45 46 47. 11.20 21.26 13.43.48 14.1.21 22 23. Discipline is neither the matter nor forme of the Church but an inseparable propertie and so there can be no Church without some Discripline Secondly It is taken strictly for the administration of the censures in which sense it is not absolutely necessary to the being but to the well-being and safetie of the Church Secondly They answer that by divine right the power of the keyes is given to every compleat Apostolicall Church but the execution of this power may be wanting either through their negligence or because they are hindred as in Sardis Thyatira Ephesus c. And this is to the purpose for the Question is of the power to execute the Discipline of Christ and not of the simple right to execute it And in your opinion the execution of Discipline is absolutely necessary to the being of the Church without which it can neither be gathered nor subsist Take your owne comparison unlesse the body doe both receive food and purge out excrements it is not possible it should subsist and live If therefore Sardis Pergamus Thyatira c. continued the true Churches of Christ when the greater sort would not and the better could not purge out excrements or all were grossely negligent it followeth that the execution of discipline or power to execute discipline is not absolutely necessary to the being of the Church Thirdly The Church of England wanteth not the discipline of Christ for substance either in respect of right or execution though it be not administred as it ought These are the Answers which they give and they are too heavie to be spurned away with scorne when ever you shall try their weight Thus I might dismisse your first band as being put to flight already But I will spend a little time to examine both propositions And for the first it is to be noted that the word Church to let passe other significations is taken First For the communitie of the faithfull few or many two three or more men or women without guides or officers for beleevers dispersed and scattered by persecution spoyled of their guides or such as being newly called never had guides set over them are yet the true Church of Christ Secondly The societie of the faithfull joyning together in the ordinances of worship under a lawfull Pastour is a true Church though defective in many officers and ordinances required to the perfection of the Church Thirdly A c Bilson ibid. ca. 1. The internall regiment that God hath by his Spirit and truth in the hearts of the faithfull is the true kingdom of christ cannot be varied is not questioned in the Church of England But there is a necessitie also of externall goverment which respecteth the appointing of meete men and repelling of unmeete to be trusted with the heavenly treasures of the Word and Sacraments As also the good using and right dividing of so precious Iewells committed to their charge competent number of faithfull people joyned in societie under lawfull Pastours Teachers and Elders to watch over rule feed and guide them in the waies of God are a true and compleat constituted Church of Jesus Christ The word Discipline also is used two wayes as hath been said First In a larger sense as comprehending all order and behaviour concerning a Church in outward duties and so among the rest the daily planting and building by the calling and offering of the Word by the Ministers and the hearing receiving and obeying by the people As military discipline is put for the whole art or manner of