by this argument The scripture testifieth that all which the Apostles taught was first taught of Christ himself before theÌ„ Heb. 2. but whatsoeuer Christ taught is written in the Gospel Luk. 1. Act. 5. Iohn 20. c. therefore whatsoeuer the Apâ—stles taught is written And therfore the Church pretending the Apostles tradition receiued by preaching iâ— bound to bring forth the Apostles writing or other holy scriptures giuen by the same spirit The fourth text iâ— 2. Tim. 3. which I alledge in these words saith Bristow Purg. 410. All goodworkes are taught by the scriptures which are able to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes First he taketh exception that these are not the wordes of S. Paul Indeede my wordes are an argument against prayers for the dead grounded vpon the scripture which Bristowe suppresseth But supposing that Saint Paul had saide so what a fonde reasoning is this saith Bristoâ— because one euidence proueth all therefore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely Sir if one euidence prooue all that which is not prooued by that euidence is not prooued at all But if to prooue that which is prooued alreadie by that one euidence you haue other good euidence no man letteth you to vse them Wherefore this is no fond kinde of resoning Maister Brâ—stow but such as the best Logicians do teach All good workes are taught by the scriptures therefore that which is not taught by the scriptures is no good worke But nowe S. Paul saith not that all good workes are taught by the scripture saith Bristowe Hee saith the scriptures are profitable he saith not are able or sufficient to teach all good works Againe he speaketh only of the worke of an Euangelist and not of all good workes To this I aunswere that immediately before Paul saide The scriptures are able to make Timothie wise vnto saluation through faith in Christ Iesu but no man can bee wise vnto saluation but he that knoweth all good workes meete for a Christian man to doe therefore all good workes meete for a Christian man to do may be learned by the scripture And euen in this very text where he saith Al the scripture inspired of God is profitable to teaching of trueth to disprouing of falshoode to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfect furnished to euerie good worke although you restraine euerie worke to the only worke of an Euangelist yet that I saide is necessarily concluded thereof For it is some part of an Euangelists worke to giue example in all good workes that are meet to be done by other men but by the scripture he may be perfectly furnished c. therefore all good workes are taught by the scripture Againe when all the office of an Euangelist which consisteth in teaching disputing correcting instructing in righteousnes may be perfectly furnisht at the scriptures what can be more playne to prooue that nothing ought to bee taught for truth disprooued for error corrected for vice instructed for righteousnesse but that which is taught disproued corrected instructed out of the holy scriptures Seeing therfore that prayers and oblations are to be made for the dead is not taught by the scripture it is no trueth To deny prayer to be profitable for the deade is not disproued by the scripture therefore it is no error To omit prayer for the dead is not corrected in the scripture therfore it is no vice MeÌ„ are not instructed in the scripture to pray for the dead therefore it is no worke of righteousnes The 5. 6. texts I alledge together Pur. 434. Search the Scriptures and trie the spirites to proue that the certeintie of trueth in vnderstanding the Scriptures is not to be had but by the spirite and the spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures Against this conference Bristow saieth Who euer alledged Scripture more blindly And why so I pray you because Christ saieth in the same place that Iohn did beare witnesse to the truth My workes doe beare witnesse of me Also My father who hath sent mee hee hath giuen witnesse of mee In dèed 〈◊〉 Bristowe could proue that Iohn Baptist Christes miracles or God his father did testifie any thing of him which was not before contained in the Scriptures neither had Christ giuen a perfect rule to find him in the scriptures neither is that sentence able to proue that Christ may be sufficiently learned out of the holy Scripture But if the testimonie of Iohn of the workes of God the father do all confirme the Scriptures who euer alledged scripture more blindly then Bristow to proue that Christ may not be learned sufficiently out of the newe Testament the old when Christ sendeth the Iewes to the old Testament as a sufficient witnesse of him Concerning the triall of spirits Bristow biddeth me looke in the text by this we knowe a spirit of trueth a spirite of error namely by hearing or not hearing of the Apostles I like it very well For where shall wee heare the Apostles speaking but in their writings in the other holy writings according to which they spake all that they taught Wherfore here is no tryall of the spirites but by the scriptures And where he sayeth the Romanes doe moste manifestly continue in that they heard of the Apostles because no man can name that time the noueltie the seducer that they went after although it were true that no man could in any point shew as he sayeth yet the argument is naught seeing it is proued by the Apostles writings that they holde many things not onely beside but also contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles The 7. text iâ— Pur. 285. The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our feere therefore wee will not walke in the darknesse of manâ— traditions The faithfull testimonie of Gods word only giueth true light vnto the eyes But the Prophet sayeth Bristow neither hath the worde only nor saith that Gods word is not but in writing for S. Paul referreth that text to the preaching of the Apostles To the fiâ—st quarrell I aunswere that I alledge not the wordes of the Prophet but his meaning which Bristowe cannot denye to be the onely worde of God that giueth 〈…〉 ue light to the eyes That Gods worde is not but in 〈…〉 riting I neuer sayde or thought but that there is no 〈…〉 erteintie of Gods worde but in the Scripture I affirme 〈…〉 nd that the Apostles preached nothing but that which 〈…〉 as before conteined though not so clearely in the lawe 〈…〉 nd the Prophets Last of all you alledge and saye against Iudas Ma 〈…〉 abaeus saith Bristowe Pur. 210. In the law not so much â—s one pinne of the tabernacle was omitted lest any â—hing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God You shall not doe sayth the Lorde what seemeth good in your
owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that onely shall you do without adding any thing to it or taking any thing away from it After a fonde quarrell of the quotation omitted by the printer and his coniecture thereupon Moses sayeth not saith Bristowe That onely which I doe write but that onely which I commaund And so our sauiour Christe commaundeth the Iewes accordingly The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it I aske no better wee must obserue that only which God coÌ„mandeth whether Moses or any other of the Prophets apostles or Euangelists haue written it whether the Scribes or Pharisees pastors or teachers do preach it But where shal we finde that which God hath coÌ„maunded but in the law the prophets in the writings of the apostles euangelists which are able to make vs wise to saluation which are profitable to make that man of god perfect prepared to al good works As for the pinnes saith Bristow you may see in the doctors they were not for that cause you imagine of leauing nothing to mans deuise in that worship of God For how say you then by Dauid Salomon who changed not only a pinne but all the pinnes the whole tabernacle into the temple ordeined musicall instruments and manye other thinges for the worship of God that the lawe did not mention I aunswere whatsoeuer Dauid and Salomon chaunged and ordeyned they did not by the deuise of man but by reuelation from God who had ordeined them to doe it But mine error is sayeth Bristow because I do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humaine spirites and men that haue the spirite of God as Moses the Propheâ—â— and Apostles and the catholike Church I were in deedâ— in a grosse errour if I could not distinguish the spirite of God from the spirite of man But Bristowe erreth because he confoundeth men that were specially chosen to receiue the worde of God by reuelation and the same to preach and write as the Prophets and Apostles with the Church which consisteth of men hauing the spirite of adoption but for the certeintie of trueth buylded vpon the foundation of the Prophets Apostles or else erring if they depart from that foundation The digression he maketh to the vnlearned brother because I knowe not the treatise against which he writeth I omitt But where he returneth to admonish mee his fellowe Fulke as he calleth mee to looke better to my Logike concerning mine argument ab authoritate nâ—gaâ—iuâ— I do him to witt that God I thanke I am not to learne Logike nor the force of an argument of authoritie negatiuely of him The argument that angreth him is this All true doctrine is taught in the Scriptures Purgatorie is not taught in the scriptures therefore Purgatorie is no true doctrine Here are two faultes sayeth Bristowe one because the maior is false the other supposing the maior were true yet cannot the argument be opposed to our arguments of traditions councels fathers I will first proue the maior That whereby the man of God may be made perfect furnished to all good workes is taught in the Scriptures 2. Tim. 3. All true doctrine is that whereby the man of God may be made perfect prepared to all good workes Therefore all true doctrineâ—s taught by the scriptures Againe That which is able to make a man wise to saluation teacheth all true doctrine needefull to saluation for of other truethes we speake not but the scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation ergo 〈◊〉 Scripture teacheth all true doctrine And concer 〈…〉 g the seconde fault which supposeth the maior mi 〈…〉 were true yet denyeth the argument I woulde 〈…〉 sh you fellowe Bristowe to looke better to your 〈…〉 gike howe an argument that is true in matter and 〈…〉 rme may not be opposed against you But you 〈…〉 ing a wittie example if you prooue a doctrine vnto 〈…〉 câ— out of the olde testament and I oppose therunto 〈…〉 y negatiue argument and saye All true doctrine 〈…〉 aught in the newe Testament that doctrine is not 〈…〉 ght in the newe testament therefore that doctrine 〈…〉 o true doctrine You aske mee whether this be well 〈…〉 posed of mee I aunswere no neither woulde I euer 〈…〉 pose such an argument against you which though it 〈◊〉 true in forme yet it is manifestly false in matter 〈…〉 r if you suppose the maior to be true as you say that 〈…〉 olde it and must holde it especially if you say so then 〈…〉 he minor vtterly false for then no doctrine is taught 〈◊〉 the olde testament but the same is taught also in 〈◊〉 newe Testament Wherefore this example prooueth 〈…〉 t but that mine argument ab authoritate negatiuè is 〈…〉 ghtly opposed against traditions councels fathers 〈…〉 ch like as auouch any doctrine for true which is not 〈…〉 ght in the Scriptures in which all trueth is taught The second part Of Scriptures alledged concerning the question of the Church â—â—d first what he alledgeth indefinitely that the Church may 〈…〉 re The firste text cited Ar. 86. Euery man is a lyar â—herfore the whole Chuch militant consisting of men â—hich are al lyars may erre alltogether Against this Bristowe asketh Why I doe not saye 〈…〉 e Church triumphant And demaundeth whether 〈…〉 at also doe not consist of men I aunswere the scrip 〈…〉 re Psalm 116. speaketh of men liuing in this worlde 〈…〉 d such as are meere men lest he should cauill at our 〈…〉 uiour Christ which is a man and yet not contained in this generall rule As for the members of the triumphant Church whether they may properly be câ—lled men I will not dispute but wee speake as the scripture speaketh of men on earth and the Church o 〈…〉 â—arth And therefore although it be true that somâ— men by the gifte of God are veraces true yet nere which may not erre And therefore the absurdi 〈…〉 which I gather Purg. 451. God onely is not true if 〈◊〉 Pope cannot erre is not auoided by saying the Apostles cannot erre For vndoubtedly the Apostles did erre That their preachings and writings were not erronious it was because they were not theirs but the enditing of the holy ghoste by them But that the holy ghost speaketh not so by the Pope it is manifest by this that he hath spoken contrary to the spirite of God in the Scriptures not onely in matters of controuersie betweene him and vs but also in heresies condemned by both partes The 2. text is Ar. 88. where I saye The true onely Church of God hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things for her knowledge is vnperfect her prophecying is vnperfect Bristowe replyeth that S. Paul in that speach includeth him selfe Our knowledge our prophecying c. is vnperfect whether we speake or write And sayth that he troweth I will
councels which to this time haue bene holden being sixe in number So expressely saith Bristowe they auouch the authoritie of councels and you alledge them for only Scriptures I crie you mercie sir Doe they alledge the authoritie of Councels as though the preaching of the Gospell and the institutions of the Apostles in their writings were not sufficient when they saide before if men would haue bene content with them there needed no councels But you adde that in their wordes there is no mention at all of Scripture but onely of preaching and teaching What I pray you is the Gospel which they should preach no scripture are not the constitutions of the Apostles conteined in their writinges I know you will answer they are not all contained in their writinges At leastwise what sworde did these warriers vse against Satan styrring vpp his squires doth not the councell say expresly the sworde of the spirit which is the worde of God contained in the Scriptures for what other worde doth Saint Paule commend to the Eph. 6. but the holy Scripture which is profitable to reproue all heresies into perfection 2. Tim. 3. Against Basil maintaining vnwritten tradition I opposed his owne auctority De Ver. Fid. in Proem Morall We knowe that we must now and alwaies auoyde euery worde and opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lorde But all is not differing saith Bristowe that is not expressed in the Scripture Neither doe I say so but all is differing that can not be proued by Scripture And so saith Basil in his short definition to the first interrogation Whether it be lawfull or profitable for a man to doe or saie any thing which he thinketh to be good without testimony of the holy Scriptures He answereth For as much as our sauiour Christ saith that the holy Ghost shall not speake of himselfe what madnes is it that any man should beleeue any thing without the auctority of Gods worde Here you see he extendeth the worde of God no farther then the holy Scriptures Yet Bristowe saith If I sawe the place my malice passeth For the wordes are these Who can be so madde that he dare so much as to thinke any thing of him selfe And it followeth But because of those things words that are in vse amongest vs some are plainly taught in the holy Scripture some are omitted Concerning them that are omitted saith Bristowe We haue this rule to be subiect to other men for Gods commandement renouncing quite our owne wills In very deede I abridged the place and gaue the true sense because it is large But if Bristowe vnderstand Basills language his wordes are these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Seeing our Lorde Iesus Christ saith of the holy Ghost for he shall not speake of himselfe but what things so euer he shall heare the same shall he speake and of him selfe the sonne can doe nothing of himselfe And againe I haue not spoken of my selfe but the father which hath sent me he himselfe hath giuen me a commandement what I shall saie and speake And I knowe that his commandement is life eternall Therefore the things which I speake euen as the father hath said vnto me so I speake Who is come into so greate madnes that he dare of him selfe take vpon him any thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euen vnto knowledge which hath neede of the holy and good spirite as a guide that he may de directed into the waie of truth both in minde and speache and deede but walketh blinde and in darknes without the sonne of righteousnes yea our Lorde Iesus Christ him which giueth light with his commandements as it were with beames For the commandement of the Lorde saith he is bright lightning the eies Seeing then that of such things as we haue in vse some are vnder the com mandement of God prescribed in the holy Scripture some are not spoken of concerning those that are written no liberty at all is giuen to any man neither to do any thing of those that are forbidden nor to omit ought of those things which are prescribed Seeing the Lorde hath once charged and saide thou shalt keepe the worde which I command thee this daie thou shalt not adde vnto it neither shalt thou take from it For there is a terrible expectation of iudgment and zeale of fyer which shall deuoure all those which shal be bolde to do any such thing And concerning those things which are not spoken of the Apostle Paule hath set vs a rule saying all things are lawfull for me but all things are not expedient All things are lawfull for me but all things do not edify Let no man seek his own profit but euery one an other mans So that in euery matter it is necessary to be subiect to God according to his commandement For it is written be ye subiect one to an other in the feare of Christ. And our Lord saith he that will among you be great let him be least of all and seruant of all that is to say estraunged from his owne will according to the imitation of our Lorde himselfe which saith I came downe from heauen not that I should doe mine owne will but the will of my father which hath sent me Where hath Bristowe that we should be subiect to other men in such thinges as are omitted by Scripture therefore not my malice but his ignorance passeth and that willful also although he follow the old barbarous translation of Basil when he may haue a better An other place of Basil I cited in his Moral defin 26. Euery word or deed must be confirmed by the testimony of holy Scripture for the persuasion of good men the confusion of wicked men Bristow saith he admonisheth his monkes being students in diuinity to be so perfect in the Scriptures that they may haue a text redy at euery need as when we bidde them cast all away that is not written they haue this text ready where Saint Paule biddeth vs the contrary To holde the traditions which we haue learned whether it be by his Scripture or by his worde of mouth 2. Thess. 2. And doth Paule bidde them holde such doctrine as was not to be proued out of the Scriptures did hee preach any such doctrine among the Thessalonians when those to whom he preached daily searched the Scriptures tosee if those thinges were euen so Act. 17. And where I pray you did you heare any tradition by worde of Saint Paules mouth that you may obiect it to vs we doubt not but whatsoeuer he preached was as true as that he did put in writing if you can assure vs of it but seeing that is impossible and it is certaine he preached no doctrine but such as he committed to writing Basills rule must still stande in force that euery worde and deede must haue confirmation of holy scripture or else it is not good for all good workes are taught in the Scripture and all true doctrine may be
authoritie or Peter him selfe superiour to the rest of the Apostles And consequently there is no cause to thinke that calamitie of the Greekes to be fallen vpon them for departing from that see In the 29. Demaund of Traditions where I charge Papistes out of Irenaeus lib. 3. 2. to be like to the Valentinians which accused the scriptures of imperfection saying that they are ambiguous and that the trueth can not be found in them by such as knewe not the tradition which was not deliuered by writing but by worde of mouth c. Bristowe answereth that S. Irenee him selfe as al Catholikes will haue both scripture and tradition Yea sir but what tradition any trueth of doctrine conserued by tradition which is not contained in the holie scriptures nothing lesse But appealeth to the testimonie of the Churches tradition for confirmation of that which is taught in the scriptures Hunc patrem c. This father of our Lorde Iesus Christ to be preached of the Churches they that wil may learne out of the scripture it selfe and vnderstand the Apostolike tradition of the Church seeing the Epistle is auncienter than they which nowe teach falsely c. So that what so euer the Apostles deliuered is contained in their writinges and it is still an hereticall assertion to say that all true doctrine is not deliuered by writing but some by word of mouth In the 34. Demaund of Authoritie where I affirme the order of the Apostles schoole is first to heare the word of God preached and then to beleeue Rom. 10. reprouing Allen which commended his friend that he first beleeued and afterward sought to vnderstand Bristowe obiecteth the authoritie of Augustine lib Retr 1. cap. 14. where he sheweth the cause whie he did write his booke de vtilitate credendi to haue ben for that the Manichees derided the discipline of the Catholike faith that men were commaunded to beleeue not taught by most certaine reason what was true whose slaunder Augustine confuteth in that booke and not defendeth Bristowes preposterous order As for examples of beleeuing Christ and his Apostles without requiring a reason of their doctrine howe vaine it is I leaue to children to laugh at seeing I speak not of reason but of the word of God preached which must needes goe before faith Neither doth Augustine meane any otherwise in his booke de vtil cred cap. 13. where he saith It is rightly appointed by the maiestie of the Catholike discipline that faith before all things is persuaded to them which come to religion But howe should faith be persuaded but by the preaching of the word of God without curious inquisition according to the reason of man Where I say that Protestants wil be ruled by their superiors so far as their superiors are ruled by the word of God Bristow derideth their authoritie who by our own confession may swarue from the truth of Gods word as though the Popish superiors might not or their supreme head although beside so many blasphemous errors as he holdeth wherof the controuersie is with the Papistes it haue not bene oft proued that diuers Popes haue bene condemned euen by generall Councels for heretikes Where I saide the Greeke Church will be ruled by the Patriake of Constantinople and the orientall Churches by their Patriarkes and Bishops Bristowe saith if I knewe the storie of the Florentine Councel wherein the Patriarkes agreed with the Catholikes Church in all things and yet could not reduce their countries from schisme I would not so say But I knewe that storie before Bristow knewe whether he would become a professed Papist or no. This consent is a forged paper found in the hande of Ioseph the Patriarke who died soudenly but in no acte of that Councel any such submission or agreement in all things appeareth but the contrarie Where I saide that to beleeue the Catholike Church is not to beleeue all and euery thing which the Catholike Church doth maintaine Bristowe would haue me suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam ecclesiam and then asketh howe I would haue construed it Verily euen as I conster Credo ecclesiam Catholicam And so would I conster Credo Sanctas scripturas Canonicas c. But if the Apostles would haue taught vs to giue credite to the Church of Rome in all things they would haue taught vs to say Credo Romanae ecclesiae And Credo scripturis Canonicis duodecim Apostolis quatuor Euangelistis c. I giue credite to the holy scriptures to the twelue Apostles and to the foure Euangelistes For Credo with an Accusatiue case to signifie I giue credite howe so euer you deride my grammatication will not be admitted in the kingdome of Grammarians except his holinesse will doe as much for that terme as he is reported to haue done once for fiatur In the 35. Demand of Vnitie where I said the Church may be called the house of peace because there is in it peace and agreement in the chiefest articles of faith Bristowe saith by this reason many olde heresies were with in the house of peace because any one article be it of the chiefest or of the meanest may breake peace as that of quartadecimani who disagreed onely in the day of Easter but that and such like disagrements in opinion might be in the house of peace as Irenaeus testifieth if obstinate contempt of generall order did not make a schisme and of a schisme an heresie as in the Donatistes Otherwise difference in a ceremonie as I said maketh not diuision of faith Bristowe saith yes if they holde their ceremonie necessarie But then they holde it not as a ceremonie or the Churches ceremonie vnlawfull But that maketh not diuision Polycarpus thought his ceremonie to be the right ceremonie against Anicetus yet he was not diuided from him for he considered the errour in a ceremonie not to be of such importance that it ought to breake the vnitie of the Church And therefore he refused not to communicate with Anicetus nor Anicetus with him No more doe they among vs that differ in opinion of ceremonies except some fewe schismaticall heades that are condemned of all men for their contention and stubbornesse The difference of opinions betweene the Popish Diuines and Canonistes Bristowe saith are such as may be among Christians as Augustine testifieth Cont. Iul. lib 1. cap. 2. de bapt Cont. Don. lib. 1. cap. 18. vntil a general Councel allowe some part for cleare and pure but we will not allowe the authoritie of any generall Councel if Bristowe may be beleeued If we might haue a Christiā generall Councel for such matters as are in controuersie among vs I doubt not but we should agree better then the Papistes which boast so much of vnitie As for the contention of the Popes and Councels superioritie remaineth still among you notwithstanding the Florentine Councel which you say most impudently that I confesse to haue resolued the matter when an other Councel and an other Pope at the same time
But my ignorance is noted of Bristow for saying that superstition was riper in the Latine Church where the seate of Antichrist was appointed to be set vp not knowing that all the olde heresies haue spronge of the Grekes against whome were helde the first foure generall Councels A pithie reason shewing no lesse Logike then knowledge of the Churche storie Foure heresies were condemned by foure councels therefore all olde heresies sprong of the Grecians But I will aske of Bristowe whether Nouatus or Nouatianus captaine of the Nouatians was of the Latine or Greeke Church Iouinian Vigilantius are counted of him to be as great heretikes as Arrius and Macedonius but whence did they spring out of Greece or frō the Latines What shall I name the Donatistes Pelagians Celestians Priscillianistes al which sprange out of the Latine Church And yet it is true that Vincentius affirmeth that vntill the dayes of Stephanus the Bishoppes of the Romaine Church had alwayes earnestly defended the integritie of religion once receiued which he speaketh not as a singular prayse of that Church only for he saith of the same matter immediately before Exemplis talibus plena sunt omnia All places are full of such examples And that which Bristow citeth out of Ruffinus in exp Symb that no heresie did spring at Rome is to be vnderstode onely of such heresies as he speaketh of before against the danger of which some clauses were added to the creede For otherwise Ruffinus could not forget what hee him selfe had translated out of Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 33. of Nouatus which being a Priest of the Church of Rome was author of the heresie of the Nouatians 2 What he sayeth of the whole Church in some of those times I say the practise of prayer for the dead is not generall because it is not to be founde in the most auncient times Bristow asketh if nothing be generall but that I finde as though he could find any thing for 200 yeares but in Tertullian the Montanist But the later practise for places he sayeth is generall if I should vrge him to proue it he could not do it I confesse it was common but for all the later time it was not generall The Waldenses for 500. of the last yeares practised it not and almost in euery age some are noted which regarded it not or denyed it 3. To what Origen he confesseth the doctors to referre it to witte vnto scripture and tradition of the fathers I confesse that some of the fathers referre the custom of praying for the dead to the Scriptures and some to the tradition of the Apostles but neither of both truely Bristowe compareth the case with fasting wherof Augustine sayeth that it is euidently commaunded in scripture but the dayes not prescribed So is prayer for the dead but the dayes times and particular prayers are referred to the tradition I aunswere when we see as good scripture for prayer for the dead as wee see for fasting we will say the cases are like How Tertullian denyed prayer and oblation for the dead to be taken out of the scriptures is referred to the ninth Chapter where it shall be answered But he is fayne to denye sayeth Bristowe the most certeine workes of the Apostles schollers Clemens Romanus and Dionysius Areopagita saying that we haue them of some counterfaiting knaue c. quoting for my saying Pur. 268. which I desire the reader to peruse and tell mee how honest a man he is that chargeth a man to say of the works of Clemens and Dionyse that which I speake onely and expressely of the counterfeit epistles of Clemens Concerning the change of the olde Liturgies we shall heare more in the sixt Chapter 4 He contraiewise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his lymmes I see no cause why I should feare or bash to affirme that all errours came from the diuell who is a lyer and the father of lyes Neither is it any absurditie to saye that the yerely oblations of thanksgiuing for the dead are heathenish as well as the oblations for the birthes But it is an impudent slaunder that he chargeth mine owne mouth to confesse that the whore of Babylon is the church at the farthest by S. Augustines time which hath patched vp her purgatory sacrifices for the dead for purgatorie and sacrifice for the dead was scarse hatched in S. Augustines time when Augustine him selfe confessed it might be doubted whether there be any such purging fire or no. 5. As touching the Popes supremacy Concerning the Popes primacy he chargeth mee to teach that the Church vanished quite away vpon a souden when Phocas sold the primacie to Bonifacius and yet no man then in the worlde that went out from the Pope The first point is a shamelesse slaunder for I neuer taught that the church vanished quite away the second is true if it be rightly vnderstood no man went from the Pope as from a true member of the church but the Pope rather went out of the church into an antichristian tyrannie But vnderstanding his saying to be that no man departed from the Popes authoritie it is vtterly false for notwithstanding the sale of Phocas the Greeke church neuer yelded to his supremacie The church of Rauenna in Italy long time after withstoode his tyranny and was separated from him in causa autocephalias that shee would haue no head ouer her but he◠owne bishop as the histories affirme Bristowe to excuse the Pope for doing contrarie to Gregories reproofe of the bishop of Constantinople sayeth that he neuer vseth the style of vniuersall bishop but of s 〈…〉 seruorum the seruant of seruants as though it was for the bare style and vsurpation of the title that Gregorie was so earnest and not for the vniuersall authoririe which was claimed by that style in which respect Gregory of humilitie the rest of his successors of hypocrisie called them selues seruants of the seruants of God Now at length Bristowe alledgeth three causes of this his tedious rehearsall of my sayings first that the reader may see in how many points we dissēt frō them whome we confesse to haue bene of the true church I answer so long as we agree in the foundation we are all of one church The second cause that the reader may see I confesse the Papistes to agree with them of the true church in the same A great glorie that you agree with them in a fewe errors and dissent in the most waightie matters of saluation Thirdly that I haue not for these points or any depēding of these iust cause to denye the Papists the true church c. If you erred onely in these points as they did holding all other trueth which those auncient fathers helde wee woulde no more deny you to be members of the true church than wee do them but seeing beside these errors you hold many blasphemous heresies which they neuer helde and
of the doctrine of diuels and spirite of errour whose fruite is forbidding of marrying eating of meates 1. Tim. 4. which is hereticall and abhominable for what cause of religion so euer it be And seeing the Apostle chargeth them with hypocrisie it is more probable that he speaketh against the Papists than against those open blasphemers But howe proueth Bristowe that the Aerians were of the opinion of the Eucratites or Apotastites Forsooth because Augustine sayeth Quidam perhibent istos sicut Eucratitas vel Apotastitas non admittere ad communionem suam nisi continentes eos qui seculo ita renuntiaverint vt propria nulla possideant ab esâ—a tamen carnium non eos abstinere dicit Epiphanius Philaster verò hanc eis tribuit abstinentiam Some say that these men as the Eucratites or Apotastites do not admit into their societie but onely such as conteine from marriage and haue so renounced the world that they possesse no proper goods yet Epiphanius sayeth not that they abstain from eating of flesh but Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence The similitude which Bristowe by falsifying S. Augustine and displacing his wordes would haue to be in the whole sect of the Eucratites is onely in the abstinence from marriage and meates and possessions not in the opinion or cause for which they abstained For seeing Aerius was an Arrian he could not hold the pluralitie of Gods For the Arrians so held the vnitie of the godhead that they denyed the Trinitie of the persons in equall substance And although he were the scholer of Eustachius yet it followeth not that he held all pointes as his maister did Augustine chargeth him to haue added these matters of his owne Beside that diuerse of Eustachius articles differ little from the opinion of the Papists concerning the marriage of priestes and the abstinence from meates howsoeuer the papistes will not seeme to be so boysterous as Eustachius in denying the kingdome of heauen to them that marry and hope to them that eate fleshe yet Pope Syricius is affirmed to write that they which be marryed be in the flesh and cannot please God Ep. ad Him Tarrat And what a daungerous matter the Papistes count it to eate flesh in tymes by them prohibited all the world doth know 4 Of Ceremonies and Liturgies The church is S. Augustines times approued vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages because Augustine complaineth of them Ep. ad Ianuar. 118. and wisheth that they might be abrogated so soone as occasion serued Bristowe quarreling that my quotation is missing which was but the printers omission answereth that Augustine in the same epistle sayeth Tamen ecclesia c. Yet the church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And I reply notwithstanding that they may be vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages For so the same Augustine writeth in thesame Epistle Quamuis enim c. For although neither this can be founde howe they are against the faith yet they oppresse the religion it selfe with seruile burdens which the mercie of God would haue to be free with moste fewe and manifest sacraments of celebrations so that the condition of the Iewes is more tollerable which although they haue not knowen the time of libertie yet they are subiect to lawfull burthens not to humaine presumptions But Bristowe proceedeth and vrgeth an other saying of Augustine that if the whole church vse any thing it is a point of most insolent madnesse to call in question whether that should be so vsed I answere wee speake of approuing of vsages not of any thing that is generally vsed The church is S. Augustines time approued diuerse vnprofitable vsages by secrete consent without open abrogation which yet were diuerse in diuerse places Where I proue they were vnprofitable by this reason that many of them are abrogated he answereth that is no good argument for there might be good cause to abrogate them although they came of the tradition of the Apostles as the decree of not eating blood nor strangled Act. 15. and the custome of the Apostles and of the churches of God for men to praye and prophesie bareheaded To the former decree I reply that it was temporall and not meant by the makers to be eternall but to beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes for a time To the other custome of praying or preaching bareheaded whatsoeuer the pompous doctors of the popish church obserue I saye it is perpetually to be obserued for the distinction of the man and woman in couering and vncouering of the head and the obseruing of naturall comlinesse in both although for necessitie of health a nightcap kercheffe or such like couering according to the custome of the country be not absolutely prohibited As for the forbidding of solemne fastes and genuflections on sundayes which Bristowe sayeth was ordeined by the Apostles to plant the article of the resurrection and more straitly obserued of the church against the Manichees which might be abrogated nowe that article is receiued and the heresie extinct is but a dreame of his owne head without proofe so 〈…〉 et it passe although I knowe not what he meaneth to say that forbidding of solemne kneeling is still obserued for the papistes kneele as solemnely on sundayes as on other dayes As for the libertie the church hath in altering of ceremonies is neuer denied of me but fondly alledged of him which pretendeth that traditions of the Apostles are as necessarily to be obserued as commaundements of the scripture referring euery blynde ceremonie whereof he knoweth none author to tradition of the Apostles Nowe concerning the Liturgies he sayth Proclus answereth why Basil Chrysostome changed the auncient Liturgies that were before them he sayth forsooth they did but abridge and make shorter the Liturgie of S. Iames which was too loÌ„g for the peoples cold deuotion But his reason will soone proue all the three Liturgies that nowe are called by the names of S. Iames Basil and Chrysostome to be counterfeits for ther is small difference in the length of them and in a manner none at all As for the Councell of Constantinople in Trullo doth in deede name the Lyturgies of S. Iames Basil Chrysostome but that proueth not these which we haue at this day to be the same seeing there are manifest arguments to the contrary as of the Monasteries spoken of in that which goeth vnder the name of Iames and of Alexius the Emperour Nicholas the bishop in Chrysostome which were not borne many hundreth yeares after his death But that prayers for the dead were vsed in the ancient Liturgies that were before Chrysostomes tyme Bristowe sayeth he hath proued by plaine demonstration Cap. 3. where there is nothing but a saying of Chrysostome cited by me in Epist. ad Philip. Hom. 3 Non frustra c. It hath not been in vaine decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries memorie should be made
rules enacted by Parliament for condemning heresie if Bristow woulde vnderstand them like a quiet subiect and not deride them like a scornefull traitor he might vnderstand that the three later are not contrarie to the first which determineth heresie by contrariety to the canonicall scripture which is declared either in the 4. first general councels or in any other generall councell agreeing with the scripture or may vpon occasion be declared by Parliament hereafter Not that the Parliament euer did imagine that it had authoritie to make truth heresie or to make any thing heresie which is not contrary to the canonicall scriptures After this he chargeth me that I will not beleue the Apostles nor the Angels without scriptures What if I woulde not were I worse then the Thessalonians or Bereans which dayly searched the scriptures to see if those things that were taught by the Apostles were euen so Act. 17. But I abuse the scripture saith Bristowe and turne the curse that saint Paul pronounceth Gal. 1. which was of preaching as if it were of onely scripture I aunswere my wordes are these if any man teach otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed but seing wee haue no certeinty of the worde of God since the Apostles departure but the canonicall scriptures which doe containe al that they preached the same curse is rightly applyed to them that teach any other way of saluatioÌ„ then that which is taught in the holy Scriptures The rest of this diuision is spent in shewing that I hold 〈…〉 ill my exception of onely Scriptures against councels 〈…〉 he see apostolike and succession of bishops with a note 〈◊〉 the ende what a franklin I am to renounce such goodly euidence whereof if I had any couler my selfe 〈…〉 o mountybanke pedler is so facing and boasting as I â—nd my fellowes As franke as I seeme in renouncing â—hat goodly euidence I trust to be carefull enough to â—olde fast the euidence of eternall life which is the ho 〈…〉 y Scriptures of God and if I and my fellowes boast in â—hem because our boasting is in God I doubt not but â—ee shal be better accepted of him then they that count â—hat boasting a stale exception and boast in vanitie 〈…〉 ust in lying and at least make flesh for their arme â—heir heart departeth from the liuing God 4 Against the fathers Although I challenge the Papists to proue their do 〈…〉 rine of Purgatorie and prayers for the dead out of the 〈…〉 uncient catholike fathers that liued within 200. yeares 〈…〉 ter Christ because I knowe they cannot yet in that 〈…〉 allenge I say nothing contradictorie to my former 〈…〉 ssertion that onely the worde of God conteined in the 〈…〉 oly Scriptures is the iudge of all doctrine and tryall of trueth and stay of a Christian mans conscience against any thing that is taught to be beleeued vnto saluation or concerning the worship of God either contrary to it or beside it But Fulkes two onelyes sayeth Bristowe namely onely the moste auncient Church and only Scripture are vtterly without all ground and but 〈…〉 eere voluntarie If it be without grounde to make the worde of God the onely iudge of godlinesse and the most ancient Church the best witnesse thereof let euery Christian conscience consider As for the voluntarinesse â—f you vnderstand the challenges to be voluntarie beâ—ause you will not accept them let your will stande in 〈…〉 eede of reason but if you call them voluntarie because you neede not accept them and yet approue your selues good Christians remember who it is that sayth my sheepe heare my voice and not a straungers let euery man see whereto the bragge of antiquitie is come when you will not be tyed to the most auncient Churches testimony and the eldest writers of the same Nowe concerning other by quarrels and cauils whereas I sayde Whatsoeuer we finde in the fathers agreeable to the Scriptures wee receiue it with their praise and whatsoeuer is disagreeable to the scriptures we refuse with their leaue Bristowe noteth within a parenthesis He meaneth expressed in the Scriptures But who made him so priuie of my meaning my wordes import no such thing for many things are agreeable to the scriptures that are not expressed in them I borrowed my phrase out of S. Augustine Contra Crescon homil lib. 2. Cap. 32. which speaketh of Cyprian that which I spake of all the fathers in generall Ego huius epistolae authoritate non teneor q 〈…〉 literas Cypriani non vt canonicas habeo sed eaâ— ex canonicâ—â— considero quod in eis diuinarum scripturarum authori 〈…〉 congruit cum laude eius accipio quod autem non congruit cuâ— pace eius respuo I am not holden by the authoritie of this Epistle because I doe not account the writings of Cyprian as canonicall but I consider them by the canonicall and that which in them agreeth with the authoritie of the holy Scriptures I receiue it with his praise but that which agreeth not I refuse it with his leaue I thinke Bristowe will teache S. Augustine shortly by that which agreeth with the Scripture to meane onely that which is expressed in so manye wordes Where I sayde that when the fathers are opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the Apostles there is no cause that we should be carryed away with them Bristowe sayeth in the margent aâ— though we opposed the doctors to the Apostles And what call you this but an opposition of the doctors to the Apostles when wee saye The Apostles haue not taught prayers for the dead in any of their writings you aunswere but the doctors haue taught prayers for the dead in their writings Where I saye the authoritie of mortall men is not to be receiued he noteth our absurditie because not onelye Melancton and such like as Allen hath tolde â—s were mortall men but also in the same terme of mortall men are the Apostles them selues comprehended And what of this Doe wee buylde vppon the authoritie of Melancton or of Peter and Paul as they were mortall men No verily Wee buyld vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Iesus Christ beeing the corner stone and the onely author of the doctrine whereof the Prophets and Apostles are witnesses who spake and writte as they were moued by the holy ghoste and therefore their writings wee receiue as the worde of God which the spirite of God hath endyted by the penne of the Apostles Where I sayde We dare not depend vppon any one manâ—â—udgement for wee must depend onely vppon Gods worde Bristowe answereth Euen so dealt the vnbeleeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and â—ith Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles and Christ him selfe condescended to them accordingly And why do not you follow the example of Christ of his Apostles to winne so many thousandes as doe refuse
scripture 〈…〉 ust be brought and heard which I neuer affirmed but 〈…〉 at onely scripture is sufficient and of soueraigne au 〈…〉 oritie to teach vs all doctrine perteyning to religion 〈…〉 d manners to faith and good workes Whatsoeuer 〈…〉 erefore is brought and heard must bee examined by 〈…〉 at touchstone if it be receiued of Christians Secondly 〈…〉 e slaundereth me to confesse that all other euidences 〈…〉 e euident for them which is an impudent lie for I ne 〈…〉 r made any such confession Thus hauing altered the 〈…〉 ate of the controuersie from that I affirme to that which 〈◊〉 falsely saith meÌ„ to affirme he taketh vpon him to an 〈…〉 ere all such scriptures as I haue alledged to prooue that 〈◊〉 al matters only scripture must be brought heard 〈…〉 nd first he quarelleth that in all mine answere to the arti 〈…〉 es I haue cited but one text of scripture for that pur 〈…〉 se. Where he might more truly say I had cited none 〈…〉 r this question of only scriptures authoritie sufficiencie was none of the demaunds wherevnto I made answere Only in the 4. article 1. demand which demaÌ„deth what church hath vanquished all heresies in times past c. I answere the true catholike Church hath alwayes resisted al 〈…〉 lse opinioÌ„s contrary to the word of god fought against theÌ„ with 〈…〉 e sword of the spirit which is the word of God and by the aide 〈◊〉 God obteined the victory and triumphed euer theÌ„ So did Paul 〈…〉 ercome the Iewes Act. 18. So did the fathers of the primitiue 〈…〉 urch froÌ„ time to time confute heresies by the scriptures and in 〈…〉 eir writing declare that by theÌ„ they are to be confuted c. To 〈…〉 is Bristow answereth that he findeth not that his argumeÌ„ts 〈…〉 gainst the Iewes were none but scriptures wherein he is 〈◊〉 be patdoned because the quotation is a misse and hath Act. 18. for 28. in which chapter 23. ver S. Luke declareth how he proued the whole doctrin of the gospel out of the law of Moses the Prophets Wherefore if Bristow had remeÌ„bred this he might haue found that S. Pauls arguments were the same against the Iewes of Corinth which he vsed against the Iewes of Rome For what other authority shold be vsed against theÌ„ that denied Christ beleue not his Epistles but the authoritie of the scripturâ— which they receiued Wherfore he vsed none other arguments but taken froÌ„ the authoritie of the scriptures Also he might find in the same chapter last verse that Apolloâ— who vsed the same arguments that S. Paul did proued by the scripturs that Iesus was Christ. If he will cauill that it is not said onely by scriptures let him accuse S. Luke which hath omitted other argumeÌ„ts necessarie to proue Iesus to be Christ. But read you Act. 13. saith Brist and you shal find that he vsed against the Iewes the testimonie of certaine men namely of Iohn the Baptist of his owne disciples This is as good an argument to proue that he confuted them not by the onely authority of Gods word conteined in the scriptures as if a man wold deny that a traytor was apprehended by the onely authoritie of the Prince because the constable arested him the Iustice made his warraÌ„t to the Iayler to receiue him Iohn the Baptist testified nothing of Christ but that which was written of him before in the scripture no more did the disciples or Apostles of Christ. Besid that the testimony of the Apostles is not alledged for proofe of any doctrine concerning Christ but only for witnes of a fact namely that Iesus was risen again froÌ„ the dead according to the scriptures Furthermore Bristow willeth â—e to read Act. 4. for the argument of miracles where it is said seing the man also stand with Peter Iohn which was healed The gouernours had nothing to gainsay A man hauing such daily exercise of conferring of scripture as Bristow boasteth himself to haue might haue alledged tweÌ„tie places more proper for the argumeÌ„t of miracles But euen in the same place by him cited the argument of miracles serueth not to prooue any article of doctrine not conteined in the scriptures but to 〈…〉 onfirme the doctrin of the scriptures which was alledged by the Apostles to prooue Iesus to be Christ. The second text of scripture is in the boke of Pur. 6. where I say that other persuasion then such as is grouÌ„ded vpon hearing of Gods word will neuer of Christians be counted for true beleefe so long as the 10. cap. to the Râ—m remaineth in the Canon of the Bible To this Bristow answereth that the word of God is not only in writing but in preaching of such as be sent And therefore wee account it the word of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her couÌ„cels or in her doctors or any other For so said God to thé he that heareth you heareth me I answere that I spake not of the word of God only in writing but in preaching in councels or doctors or howsocuer it be the word of God but I say the only scriptures are a sufficient warant for me euery Christian to try what is the word of God what is the word of man For he that coÌ„manded vs to heare the Apostles ministers willeth vs not to beleue any doctrin which they teach if they haue not the warrant of holy scripture to proue vnto vs that it is the doctrin of God For since god gaue his word in writing al spirits prophets signes miracles were to be tryed thereby Deut. 13. The third text Gal. 1. which S. Paul spéaketh of preaching Bristow saith I alledge it of writing of onely writing In these words Pur. 449. It vexeth you at the verie hart that we require the authoritie of holy scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„mandement out of the word of God that if any man teach otherwise theÌ„ the word of God alloweth he is accursed First he chargeth me with falsification by changing But what change I haue made let the Lorde God iudge Indeed I haue drawne mine argument from the worde of God to the holy scriptures because they are the only certeine assurance of the word of God For how can I knowe certainely what S. Paul preached to the Romaines and other Churches but by the scriptures both of the old testament and the new which he affirmeth to be able to make a man wise vnto saluation 2. Tim. 3 yea wherefore was the newe Testament written but to assure vs what is the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Therefore accursed be he that saith the newe Testiment is vnperfect and doeth not contayne in writing al pointes of the Gospell that Christians are bound to beleeue to their saluation But the scripture saith not that the Apostles did write al that they taught saith Bristow yes verily and that I prooue
and other cited in diuerse places of my booke These places he saith are but bare names But when we come to expounding of these places we shall finde eyther reason or auctority of these Doctors for vs. In the meane time we will consider Hieronyme whom Bristowe saith that I confesse to haue allowed prayers for the deade Wherein he saith vntruly for I neuer confessed simply that he allowed prayers for the deade But Pur. 194. I saide interrogatiuely and by waie of concession Howe hapeneth it that Chrysostome and Hieronyme which both interpreted that place could gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed prayer for the deade And indeede in so many bookes of Hieronyme nothing can be found whereby it may be proued that he allowed prayer for the deade although it were a common error of many in his time And in this place cited in the decrees by Gratia◠139. 2. he simply denieth that any prayers are profitable for the deade The place in deede as Bristowe saith is in his Comment vpon Gal. 6. although he in exposition allude to 2. Cor. 5. we must all appeare before the iudgment seate of Christe But the answere of this place of Hierome Bristowe saith I might learne of the glose which expoundeth it of them that die without repentaunce only but in deede it is spoken generally of all men As the very wordes declare vpon this texte Euery one shall beare his owne burthen Videtur superioribus contrair◠vbi ait c. He seemeth to goe against the former sentence where he sayth Beare the burthens one of an other For if euerie one shall beare his owne burthen one cannot beare the burthens of an other But we must consider that there he commanded that we which cōmit sinne should in this life helpe one an other and in this present worlde should be an aide one to an other but here hee speaketh of the iudgment of the Lorde vpon vs that not of other mens sinn or of comparison of the worser but according to our own worke we shal be iudged of him either sinners or holy euery one receiuing according to his owne worke Obscurè licet doce 〈…〉 r per han◠sententiolam nouum dogma quod latitat We are taught by this short sentence though darkely a newe doctrine or opinion whiche lyeth hidde that while we are in this present worlde we may helpe one another either by prayers or by counsels but when we shall come before the iudgement seate of Christe that neither Iob nor Dauid nor Noe can intreate for any man but that euerie one doth beare his owne burthen That which Hierome speaketh of himselfe and of all other that prayers can not auaile them beeing out of this world when the glose restreyneth onely to them that die in mortall sinne without repentance it is as good as the olde iest Statuimus id est abrogamus It is also worthy to be considered that Hierome as it seemeth against the errour of his time calleth this a newe doctrine which he gathereth of that sentence That the moste auncient doctours doe not interprete the Scriptures by name against Purgatorie I said it was because Purgatorie in their time was neither heard nor named Bristowe replyeth that I confessed Cap. 3. that the olde doctours heard both the name and the thing c. Thus he chargeth me still with confessions falsely For although Augustine heard of the name of Purgatorie whereof he sometimes doubteth sometimes denyeth all places but two yet no writer before him Neither were prayers for the dead heard in the Churche before the heresie of Montanus But to returne to Hierome whom I saide in Eccle. 11. to expound the North and South not for the states of grace and wrath but for the places of rewarde or punishment Bristowe sayeth of both But I denie that he speaketh of the state of grace in that sort that Allen meaneth namely that any man so dieth in the state of grace that he obteineth release of punishment after this life which is the matter in question but that Bristowe is disposed to cauill For although a man in this life may be remoued out of the North into the South yet when the tree is fallen there is no more remouing by Hieroms iudgement Wheresoeuer thou preparest thee a place and a seate hereafter whether it be in the South or in the North there when thou art dead thou shalt continue This whiche the Doctor speaketh expressely of a place a seate of euerlasting continuance Bristow for want of a better answere expoundeth of merite as though it might stande with Hieronyms authoritie that the place might be changed although the merite can not be bettered Touching scriptures for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead whether the Doctours say No Scripture to make for it I said that Tertullian confesseth that oblations prayers for the dead were not taken of the scriptures but of tradition Bristow in diuers places denieth any such confession of Tertullian restraining his meaning to an onely ceremonie of oblation and prayers on the yeares day of their departure as though oblation and prayer for the dead generally were clearly taught in the scriptures which thing if it be why doth not Allen or Bristowe or any writer yong or olde bring one place out of the canonicall Scriptures allowing prayer and oblation for the deade and as touching Tertullian his wordes are such as with no equity may be restrained to so particular a ceremonie Oblationes pro defunctis pro natalitiis annua die facimu◠We make oblations for the deade for the day of mens byrth on the yearly daie If Oblationes pr◠natalitiis be not founde in the Scriptures at all neither on the yearly daie nor any other daie Why saie we not the like of Oblationes pro desunctis Againe why maie it not be that the yearly day of celebration is meant only of mens byrth and oblations for the deade left at larg◠for to celebrate the yearly festiuity of mens birth was vsual among the Gentiles euery man for himselfe But to obserue the yearely day of al mens death were infinite either for their friends or for the Priests to doe Wherefore it remaineth that oblations for the dead what soeuer they were in Tertullians time were not taken of the Scriptures And if they were Masse and prayers for the dead as the Papistes say Masse and prayers for the dead are not taken out of the Scriptures by Tertullians confession The contradictions that he layeth to me I alwayes reserue to their peculiar Chapter Augustine also denyeth a third place to be found in the Scriptures D◠Verb. Apost ser. 14. Contra Pelagian Hyp. lib. 5. And De Verb. Apostol Ser. 33 For praying for the dead he alledgeth the tradition of the fathers which he is not wont to doe where scripture doth not faile him Epiphanius likewise against Aerius bringeth no Scripture but the custome and tradition of the Churche in naming the dead in their prayers
would haue nothing done in the celebration of the lords supper namely in ministring of the cup but that Christ himselfe did lib. 2. Ep. 3. Bristow answereth the he writeth against the Aquarians which offered water only wher as Christ offered wine which was clean against Christs doing And what is your sacriledge in robbing of the church of Christ of the whole cup is it not cleane contrary both to his doing his coÌ„maundemeÌ„t drinke ye al of this and such doing as he did for a tradition vnto vs when the Apostle rehersing that tradition reherseth drinking of the Lords cup by the lay as well as eating of the bread As for mingling wine with water which first was but a custome of sobriety after grew into a ceremonie if Cyprian should vrge of necessitie he might be answered by his owne rule Likewise where Chrysostom saith it was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy misteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed I said we wil be bold to charge him with his owne sayings first Hom de Adam Heâ—a satis sufficere c. wee thinke it sufficeth ynough whatsoeuer the writings of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresaid rule insomuch that we count it not all catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrary to the rules appointed By this Bristow seeth that I am a great reader of the doctors For whosoeuer made this homily saith he he took those words out of the instructions which followeth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus in the first tome of councels where the wordes are not the writings of the Apostles but the writings of the see apostolike which are thought sufficient Whatsoeuer my reading be for the maker of the Homily I cannot depose but I trust he will not deny but it hath in al printed books gone vnder the name of Chrysostom and it containeth nothing vnworthy the iudgement of Chrysostom It is therefore more like that Celestinus or whosoeuer gathered that instruction borrowed those words out of this homily and from the writings of the Apostles peruerted them to the writings of the see apostolike many such borrowing peruersions are commonly found in those pontifical Epistles For admit that not Chrysostom but some later man made that Homily which borrowed such words out of that Epistle or instruction Why did he alter them if hee thought the writings of the apostolike see sufficient to approue all catholike doctrine except perhaps his copie had also apostolica scripta that copie which Peter Crab followed in gathering the councels is corrupted Certaine it is the homily is auncient and made in the time when the Pelagian heresie begun to spring which was in the later time of Chrysostom therfore I haue vsed no fraude or misdemeanour in citing this saying for Chrysostoms wherto Bristow maketh no answere but denyeth the authority Likewise wher I cite out of Chrysost. in Ge. Ho. 58. Thou seest into how great absurdity they fall which will not follow the Canon or rule of the holy scripture but permit al to their owne cogitations Bristow answereth nothing but that Chrysost. answereth heretikes which said our Lord took not ture flesh as though his seÌ„teÌ„ce is not general against al heretiks which go besid the scripture Thirdly I saide if we be further vrged we wil allege that he writeth in Euang. Iac. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy scripture but clymeth another way that is a by way not allowed is a theese To this Bristow replyeth that I will call Chrysostom a theefe by his owne saying for vsing tradition yea verely if he be obstinate and why not as well as S. Paul or an Angel accursed if they bring an other Gospel Secondly he saith as though he vseth not scripture which vseth tradition or that scripture doth not warrant tradition as 2. Thessa. 2. I aunswere such tradition as is warraÌ„ted by scripture we refuse not but if al your traditions were warraÌ„ted by scripture wher should be your vnwritten verities Thirdly saith Bristow the thing that he speaketh of is that Antichrist Pseudochrists cannot shewe any commission out of scripture I answere that proueth the Pope to be Antichrist who neither for his authoritie nor for his doctrine can shewe any commission out of the scripture Fourthly I saide we may bee as bolde with Chrysostome as he saide he would be with Paul himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. I will say somwhat more wee must not be ruled by Paul himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humaine but wee must obey the Apostle when he caryeth Christ speaking in him Bristow asketh whether he spake onely by scripture No verily but by reuelation he spake to S. Paul by audâ—ble and humaine voyce hee spake to the rest of the Apostles and whatsoeuer hee spake any way pertaining to our instruction is committed to writing and therefore I beleeue not Chrysostom alledging a tradition of the Apostles which is not founde in their writings Another place of Chrysostom I cite in Luke Chap. 16 saying that ignorance of the scriptures hath bredde heresies Therefore hee woulde haue heresies kept away by knowledge of the scriptures We would the same saith Bristowe but what maketh this for onely scripture to be of authoritie yes forsooth If all heresies come through ignorance of the scriptures that which commeth not through ignorance of the scriptures is no heresie And that opinion which is not contained in the scriptures commeth not of ignorance of the scriptures therefore he that knoweth the scriptures knoweth all truth Vnto Leo the great alledging custome and tradition I oppose his owne saying for onely Scripture to be sufficient Ep. 10. They fall into this follie which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the wordes of the Prophets nor to the writinges of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to themselues He doth not say saith Bristowe that all truethes are expressed in the Scripture For he blameth the heretike for not hauing recourse to our common Creede as though there were any thing in our common Creede which is not expressed in the Scripture And if onely Scripture were not sufficient for men to know the truth in any obscuritie howe could they be blamed for not hauing recourse vnto them for that which they cannot find in them The words of the councel of Constantinople the 6. Act. 18. of Bristows true translation are these If all men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had beene well a fine and neither the authors of heresies nor the fautors of the Priestes had bene put to the paynes of conflictes but because the diuell not resting rayseth vp his squires therefore Christe also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriours against them to wit the general
the Church in the wildernes as though we were forbidden to seeâ—e her or else to acknowledge her to be where somtime she shold be In the 4 demand of rising after he would maintaine 2 arguments the first is this Our first auctors can not be named Ergo they were none but the Apostles This argument hath no consequens and yet the antecedent iâ— false For of many of your errors we name the auctors and of praier for the dead Montanus the heretike vntill you can name vs a Catholique that helde it which was more auncient then he and although you would cleare your selues of theft because you haue not stollen that article but receiued it yet seeing it came first from a theefe your possession can not be iust and therefore ye must restore it to the heathen from whence Montanus stoale it Where I brought example of the heretikes called Acephali and diuerse other Pur. 388. to proue that the first auctor of euery heresie can not be named Bristow saith that he findeth his name to haue ben Seuerus that they were but a peece of Eutyches as the Puritanes are of Caluin But when writers dout the common voice gaue them their name because their bead was not knowen the coniâ—cture of a name will not serue the turne If they had added nothing to Eutyches they should haue bene called Eutychians as for the cauill of Caluine and the Puritanes deserueth none aunswere More like are the friers obseruants and general Franciscanes to those headlesse heretikes the Eutychians But Bristowe being driuen from the auctor falleth to the beginning of an heresie which being shewed to haue bene later then Christ and his Apostles is indeede an vndoubted argument to reproue an heresie And the begining saith he is shewed by this that the primitiue name of ChristiaÌ„s would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by By this demonstratine Logike none shill so â—ptly be proued heretikes as Monkes Friers Nunnes c who disdaining the primitiue name of Christians haue chosen to themselues newe names as Benedictines Franciscanes Iesuites c. Whereas the olde heretikes did not willingly chuse the names that they were called by but by like names reproched the true Catholikes which argueth that the new name except it be chosen by them â—elues is no good argument to conuince heretikes Bris. asketh if the Papists do acknowlege any founders of their faith but the Apostles of Christ yea verily the Pope the popish councel which haue giuen you new articles of faith that the Apostles neuer taught but yâ— contrary as transubstantiation coÌ„munion vnder one kind c. That Teâ—tul other latter writers do father praier for the dead vpon traditioÌ„ of the Apostles it is no warrant for vs seeing the doctrine therof is not found in all the holy canonicall scriptures but is contrary to the same Montanus is found to be the first that since Christ taught praier for the dead That transubstaÌ„tiation was lately decreed he answereth it was the name not the thing as Homousion was alwaies beleued euen before the Nicen Councell which first receiued that name A fit coÌ„parison but how can Brist say that traÌ„substaÌ„tiation was alwais beleued when the coÌ„mon opinioÌ„ almost of al the scholemen is that before the determination of the Laterane councel it was no heresie to hold impuratioÌ„ or adnihilation of the Elements and he himself confessed in the last Chapter that perfect transubstantiation was not decreed before the last Tridentine session The second argument is this your first auctors can be named after the beginning of the Churches rising with their newe opinions Ergo their opnions were heresies c. To this argument I answer denying the antecedent for we hold no new opinion but the foundation of the Prophetes and Apostles Iesus Christ beeing the head corner stone Where I take exceptions to Allens rule Pur. 413 Bristow expoundeth his meaning to be of such an opinion as is contrary to the truth first preached by the Apostles and vpon his exposition not necessary vpon Allens wordes chargeth me with nugation or triseling in adding mine exception which is the same with his exposition I pray the reader vouchsafe to peruse the place and see if there be any droppe of shamefast bloud left in this blundering papist which blusheth not to scoffe at me for triselings when he doth nothing but cauil and trifle himself and that without al wit or reason truth or likelihoode In the 5. demand of contradiction of heresies in their first arising where I had shewed how some fewe plausible errors of praier for the dead to the dead Ar. 39 by litle and litle preuailed without any great contradiction mentioned in Histories Bristowe saith It is a fonde parte to tell why and how a thing was done which was neuer done For the Scripture Es. 62. and August Ep. 119. Cap. 19. affirme that there ne should be ne was any such silence in the true pastors c. I answere both the Scripture and the Doctor speake of silence which may bring present ouerthrowe of the Citie or damnation of the Citizens Otherwise the true pastors in Saint Augustines time not only in silence passed but by speache and writing allowed the error of communicating of infants and the necessity thereof as I haue shewed before And seeing prayer for the deade and to the deade by the holy Scriptures are conuinced to be errors it can be no iustifying of them to say no man preached against them at their first rising And seeing the Histories of the auncient time are very fewe and short it is more boldlie affirmed then soundly proued that no man preached against them Epiphanius doth not tell who preached against euery heresie at the first arising thereof And euen some of Origens heresies of which Bristowe taketh example slept almost 200. yeares in his bookes before they were openly contradicted in the daies of Hieronyme Ruffine and Augustine Touching that I alledge of the mystery of iniquity working in the Apostles time 2. Thess. 2. Bristowe chargeth me to say that the Church of Christ wrought this mystery of iniquity wherein he doth me open iniury for I knowe it was Satan which wrought it but yet in the Church where Antichrist should sitte and not without it He asketh whether my text say There was no preaching against it I answere my text saith it was a mystery not reuealed and therefore could not at the first be openly preached against But Antichrist being openly shewed was preached against by the two witnesses Apoc. 11. although he were not espied in the first mystery of iniquity yea when he was yet in fashioning he was preached against by Irenaeus Pollycrates and others Ar. 36. and in this book Cap. 9. The case of Cyprian and the Affricanes being true pastors and yet contradicting the truth and other true pastors denying that such as were baptised by heretikes were to be rebaptised I haue clearely
said not If Bristowe will say that none from Paganisme were conuerted to Christianitie by the Nouatians Donatistes or other heretikes I wil see what I haue in store to proue it The conuersion of the Moscouites by the Grecians Bristowe asketh whether it were before their schisme or after and concludeth it was in the time of their emulation and not in time of their schisme I reade the conuersion of the Moscouites to haue ben into the Greekish forme of Christianitie An. Do. 987. Ioachimus Cureas in Mieslao primo about which time the controuersie of the proceeding of the holy Ghost began to arise but long before the Greeke Church refused subiection to the Church and Pope of Rome which if you call but an emulation you ouerthrow the rocke of your owne religion breake off the band of your vnitie which you affirme to coÌ„sist only in subiection to the Romish bishop In the 11. Demaund of Brittanie where I saide the Actes of the Apostles is the best monument to shewe into what faith as well this Island as all other nations were conuerted by the Apostles Bristowe asketh Whether the Actes of the Apostles were written to shewe into what faith all nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Yea verily they were written to shewe that the Apostles preached the same faith vnto the Iewes and Gentiles which they receiued of Christ according to the holie Scriptures and thereof the bâ—oke is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the practise of the Apostles according to such instruction as thei receiued of Christ. Secondly he asketh is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles There is mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to the Iewes and of their agreement in doctrine to be preached to the Samaritans and Gentiles although it was neither possible nor needfull nor conuenient that they should all twelue in person goe to euery nation But what faith so euer any one preached to any nation the same did they all preach without difference in euerie nation that they conuerted There is not one of the articles of the Creede necessarie to saluation but it is to be proued by the Actes of the Apostles that they did preach it But Bristowe wil tell vs an other cause why that booke was written No sir saith he that booke was written to shewe onely the beginning of the Church according to the prophets to wit at IerusaleÌ„ among the Iewes and the taking of it from them for their deserts and giuing it to the Gentiles euen from Ierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles If this were the only purpose of the Euangelist as Bristowe most impudently affirmeth he should haue spared much labour in setting foorth the sermons and summe of the doctrine which the Apostles preached both to the Iewes and Gentiles But let vs heare Bristowe goe forward And there Saint Luke endeth it not caring to tell so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to Saint Paule in whose person this translation was wrought and not in S. Peters for causes too long to be here rendered Thou must stand before the Emperor Because his purpose was no more but to shewe the newe Ierusalem of the Christians and so to leade them to it to knowe what are the particulars that the Apostles taught If this be true all the testimonie and report that he maketh of their doctrine was beside his purpose yea the historie of the gospell which he writ of all things that Iesus beganne to do and teach was out of this purpose And he tooke the wrong way in writing his gospel to Theophilus to teach him the certaintie of those things wherof he had bene instructed as Saint Luke him selfe had receiued of the Apostles them selues whereas according to Bristowes imaginatiue purpose seeing there had ben manie writings of the gospel alreadie he should haue sent him home to the newe Ierusalem of the Christians and so haue left him to it to knowe what are the particulars the Apostles taught But where on gods name learne wee that whore of Babylon that sitteth vpon the seuen hilles Apoc. 17. to be this newe Ierusalem on earth when S. Paul Gal. 4. bringeth all Christians from the earthly Ierusalem vnto the heauenly IerusaleÌ„ which is aboue and is the mother of vs all not to an other Ierusalem on earth and that the mother of all abhominations of the earth Apoc. 17. And howe falleth it out that S. Luke hauing a purpose so long and certainely continued and so necessarie for the Church not in one word commendeth to vs this newe Ierusalem on the seuen hils nor in one word maketh mention of that which only changeth if any thing can chaunge hell into heauen Rome into Ierusalem namely the translation of Peters chaire or his person or the least haire of his head or thred of his garment to Rome But this belike is reserued among the Apocriphal causes as these are why the translation was in the person of S. Paule and not of S. Peter Where I required one of those nations to whome the Apostles preached purgatorie or praier for the dead to be named out of the Actes of the Apostles Bristowe answereth continuing his former speach And so withall you haue one of those nations named and that no common one to wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only that article you require but all the rest which at this time it hath c. When this is shewed out of the Actes of the Apostles or any other Canonical scripture I am answered Where I require it to be proued that the same Apostle which first conuerted Britanie taught praiers or sacrifice for the deade Bristowe answereth If you require vs to proue it out of the Scripture considering that the Scripture doth not tell of our lands conuersion you declare your selfe to be but a pratler At the least wise you declare that you cannot proue it out of the scriptures But we can proue out of the scriptures euery article that we beleeue to haue bene taught by that Apostle or Apostolike man whosoeuer first preached the saith of Christ in this lande although our landes conuersion be not by name mentioned in scripture Yet seeing the doctrine of euerie one of the Apostles was the same that is expressed in the scriptures we are able to proue that he preached the same which we beleue considering that we beleue al that is written in the holy scriptures As for the confirmation of Eleutherius which Bristowe saith was an accomplishing of that which was begun by the Apostles Romanes if he meane of a supply of doctrine it is false for Christianitie hauing bene in Brittanie planted by the Apostles in the time of Tiberius and continued more then a 100. yeares before Eleutheâ—ius was perfect Christianitie To passe ouer that peâ—ke of troubles in which Bristow placeth me because I do
sacrifice and sacrificer the other is offered continually the sacrificer liuing As for his rule to know proper and vnproper speaches let him trie to teach his pupils when I am disposed to learne I will chuse a better learned teacher But now he coÌ„meth to answere obiections First I sayd the bringing foorth of bread and wine was no part of Melchisedeks priesthood seeing the Apostle comparing him with Christ in all thinges in which he was comparable neuer teacheth it as any part of his priesthood This argument Bristow maketh to be of one place of Scripture negatiuely not consideting it is the onely place where such comparison is made and that it is absurd to thinke the Apostle would omit so principall a part of Melchisedeks and Christs priesthood But Bristow will examine the text First their vulgar translation begining at proferens both gelding the text falsely translating At verò Melchisedek rex Salem proferens panem vinum erat enim sacerdos dei altissimi benedixit ei c. But truly Melchisedek King of Salem bringing foorth bread and wine for he was the priest of the highest GOD blessed him saying What doth this context helpe him which is as much to say as he blessed him because he was a priest Bristow fraudulently omitteth the parenthesis and in translation changeth the participle into the verbe But in the Hebrue If we beleeue Bristowe the poynting declareth that also the Rabbines themselues take it in the same sort What a greate Rabbine is Bristowe sodenly growne to be since his departure out of Oxforde But what poynting should declare this he sheweth not neither can I gesse The text is And Melchisedek King of Salem brought foorth bread and wine there is the middle of the verse then it followeth And he was a Priest of the highe GOD there is the end then it followeth And he blessed him c. In deede Rabby Salomon but not in respect of any poynting sayth of the bringing foorth of bread and wine for a true exposition First that it was vsuall to doe so to men that were wearied in warre also that thereby he shewed that he was not offended with him for killing of his Children for he taketh Melchisedek to be Sem the middle sonne of Noach Secondly for a Mideash or vaine exposition that it was to signifie the Minchoth and Nesecuth the meat offeringes and the drinke offeringes which his children or posteritie should offer in that place not that Melchisedek in respecte that he was a Prieste did bring foorth bread and wine But all the Fathers doe agree in this similitude of Melchisedeches Priesthood with CHRIST I knowe that many doe so but one Apostle is of greater authoritie then they all yet none of them all speaketh of a Priesthoode to offer vp the naturall bodie of Christ in a propitiatorie sacrifice which is the principall matter in question But if Melchisedek were a Prieste Bristowe will aske me what was his sacrifice if it were not bread and wine seeing none other is mentioned For my part I am not ashamed to be ignorant of that which the Holy Ghost hath not reueiled Sure I am if bread and wine had beene his sacrifice and the sacrifice of Christ also the Apostle would not haue omitted it which compareth much smaler matters in him with Christ then that Where I say it is horrible blasphemie to challenge the Priesthoode according to the order of Melchisedek which is singular to Christ Psalm 110. and Heb. 7. Bristowe asketh if the scripture say not that there is one baptizer which is Christ and yet all are not blasphemers that are baptisers I answere if any take vpon him to baptise with the holy ghost and with fire he is an horrible blasphemer But to baptise with water that is to be ministers of the outwarde sacrament in which onely Christ baptiseth inwardly Christ hath called all those ministers of his word and sacramentes Shewe you the like calling for your blasphemous Priesthood after the order of Melchisedek or else your example of baptisers will not discharge you of horrible blasphemie But you haue another docterlike argument when you haue scoffed out my poore doctershippe Were not all the rest in the olde time the ministers of Aaron but Aaron himselfe was Priest onely in his owne time and after him euerie one in his time was Priest as well as he and therefore in that law were many Priestes He asketh the question as though it were out of question Were not all c. O famous and illuminate doctor where did your docters hoode learne that all the high Priestes successiuely whereof euerie one was a figure of Christ as much as Aaron were ministers of Aaron For you speake of high Priestes or else what meane you to say that Aaron him selfe was priest onely in his owne time for all his sonnes were priests although he onely the high priest in his time Vpon this stronge foundation you build a similitude and dissimilitude So that the olde testament was like to England since the conquest hauing successiuely many Kinges But the newe testament is like to England duduring the time of one King who being but one yet hath many ministers as one might say so many ministerial kinges You shew learning ynough in this similitude and dissimilitude to make you a doctor after the popes order But let vs vnder correctioÌ„ of your doctors hood examine your coÌ„parisoÌ„ The olde Testament was like England since the Conquest hauing successiuely many Kings Had not euerie of those kings many Ministers vnder them And euerie Aaronicall priest had also many Priestes and Leuites vnder him And was not Christ head of the Church of the Iewes in the seuerall times of euery the high Priest Wherefore the olde testament is as like to England during the time of one King as the newe in those pointes but the difference is this that the figuratiue high priestes were many because they could not continue but by death were alwaies chaunged Christ being an euerlasting Priest hath a priesthoode that descendeth not by succession so that although he haue many ministers yet he onely hath the euerlasting priesthoode which is according to the order of Melchisedek Heb. 7. As for your terme of ministeriall kings howe well it agreeth to your shauen crownes I will not stand here to discusse My third argument as Bristowe calleth it is this The Apostle to the Hebrues cap. 10. teacheth vs that Christ offering but one sacrifice for our sinnes and that but once cap. 9. hath made perfect for euer those that are sanctified that our sinnes are taken away by that sacrifice and therefore there is no more sacrifice for sinnes left To this Brisâ—owe aunswereth that I doe not vnderstand what the Apostle meaneth by those that are sanctified by their making perfect by sacrifice for sinne The sanctified are onely the newe baptized by his iudgement for which he quoteth 1. Cor 6. where the Apostle saith But nowe you are washed you
with his censure was countermanded by many Bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They did countermaund him or gaue him contrarie commaundement to set his minde on things pertaining to peace and vnitie and loue of his neighbour Irenaeus in his Epistle to Victor shewing that Polycarpus could not be persuaded by Anicetus Bishop of Rome in some small things wherein they differed declared that it was not then of Polycarpus or him selfe otherwise thought but that the Bishop of Rome might erre The other example I brought was of Stephanus Bishop of Rome misliked by Dionysius Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5 c. sharply reproued by Cyprian accusing him of presumption and contumacie Epist. ad Pomp. because he threatened excommunication to Hilenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia thinking that such as were baptized by heretikes should be baptized againe Also Cyprian in his Epist. ad Quirinum saying that Peter himselfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiors Bristowe saith none of these denied the primacie of Peter I say they al denied the primacie of autoritie although Cyprian in the same place saith For neither Peter whom our lord chose first which argueth no primacie but of order vpō whom he builded his Church when Paule did afterward dissent from him about circumcision did boast him self or take vpon him any thing insolently or arrogantly that he should say he held the primacie and that he ought rather to be obeyed of newe scholers and aftercommers Here you see it had bene in Cyprians iudgement a point of insolencie and arrogancie in Peter if he had challenged the primacie of authoritie and certaintie of trueth against al men But Bristowe saith when there was no remedie but they must yeeld or be Schismatikes because Stephanus would no longer tolerate them they did like Catholike men for all their Councels conforme their newe practise to the old custome and quoteth August de bapt cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. 25. where there is no such matter also he referreth vs to his fift Demaund where he citeth Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 2. 3. 4. 5. but neither is it there testified Only cap. 6. Dionysius chaungeth his iudgement being admonished in a vision and that he had learned that not nowe onely but of olde time both in Aphrica and other places the trueth was receiued c. but of any constraint for feare of being Schismatikes if they dissented from the bishop of Rome there is no word The place of Hierome ad Euagrium which I cited Pur. 374. defending a custome of the whole Church against a custome of the Church of Rome Bristowe saith doth not proue a Church a rule of trueth and Christianitie without the bishop and Church of Rome because Hierome saith as also there I cite Nec altera c. we must not thinke that there is one Church of the citie of Rome and an other of all the world c. By which wordes he sheweth that the Church of Rome if she will be a member of the Catholike Church must conforme her selfe to the Church of all the world and not the Church of all the world conforme her selfe to the Church of Rome Where I say we beleeue the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour on earth but Christ vnto whome al power is giuen in heauen and earth Bristowe obiecteth suppose that one Christian King or Emperour should reigne sometime as farre as the Church reacheth To this impossible supposition I aunswere that one King should haue no more authoritie than euerie King hath nowe But Bristowe obiecteth that Kings and Queenes be no more named among S. Paules officers c. Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. and therefore as a Puritane belike I would pull them downe In the motiue of Apes he discharged me from being a Puritane by his censure but now he burdeneth me to be a Puritane so farre that I should also be a traitour as he and all his fellowes are To his wise obiection I aunswere that as Kings and Queenes are not named among Saint Paules officers so they are no Ecclesiasticall but ciuill Magistrates and the Church may be without them as it was many hundreth yeares Yet when Kings and Queenes are Christians they haue chiefe authoritie ouer persons and in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre as the godlie Kings of Israel and Iuda had Dauid Solomon Iehosophat Ezechias Iosias c. But Christ professing that all power is giuen him Matthew 28. signifieth that with good authoritie he might commit what authoritie he would and therefore biddeth all his Apostles goe teach and baptize◠and to one of them singularly feede my lambes and my sheepe No maruel though my ignorance in the scriptures be often reproued when such learned conclusions come from Bristowe Christ saide to one feede my lambes and sheepe therefore he saide it singularly and he hath vniuersall charge and all his successors to But for the Popes supremacie the Apostle saith expresly 1. Cor. 12. the heade vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie to me But who taught you to foyst in your owne glosse vnder Christ when the Apostle speaketh of the members of a naturall bodie wherevnto euerie seueral cōgregation and the whole church also is like If you seeke the head of euery seuerall congregation you must looke to the chiefe gouernours thereof but if you seeke the head of the whole Church the scripture teacheth but one which is Christ for one head vnder another in one whole body is monstrous But you thinke perhaps Christ as he is head of his Church may say to the feete he hath no neede of them and therefore it must be vnderstoode of an head vnder Christ but then you must remember that although Christ be most perfect in him selfe yet as he vouchsafeth to take vpon him this office to be head of the Church he is not perfect without al his members which is the singular comfort of Gods children Ephe. 1. ver last But Saint Paule Ephe. 4. as Bristowe saith vnder the name of the Apostles includeth the successors of the Apostle S. Peter whose see for that cause is called the Apostolike see in singular maner and their decrees and actes esteemed of Apostolike authoritie in al antiquitie This cause is a shameles and senseles lie for no antiquitie for 600. yeares after Christ so esteemed the see or the decrees therof Again what reason is it that Peters successors should be included more thē the successors of the other Apostles seeing this souereigntie of Peter is not grounded vpon his Apostleship but vpon his Bishoplike office as Sander maintaineth As for the principalitie of Apostleship principalitie of the Apostles chaire which he quoteth out of August de bapt Cont. Don. li. 2. ca. 1. epi. 162. haue often bene shewed to be vnsufficient to make euery one of Peters successors equal with Peter in
the mediator with which she had nothing to doe as a mother but was esteemed of him as a woman who knew when it was conuenient for him to doe whatsoeuer were for the glorie of Gods kingdome to be done without her or any other bodies admonition Neither doe I charge her as Chrysostom in Ioann Hom. 20. Optabat enim c. For she wished that he might now winne the fauor of men and that she might be made more noble by the fauour of her sonne And perchance she was moued with some humane affection euen as his brethren when they saide shew thy selfe to the world being desirous by his miracles to winne themselues a fame Therefore he answered more sharpely what haue I to doe with thee woman my houre is not yet come For that he did reuerence his mother Luke doth testifie that he was subiect to his parentes and this Euangelist doth shew how great care he had of his mother in the time of his passion For where his parentes did nothing hinder the mysteries of GOD did offend nothing it was meete and necessarie for the sonne to be obedient neither could he deny obedience without greate perill Contrarywise when they desire an vnseasonable thing and that which would haue beene an hinderance to spirituall thinges Who is my mother and my brethren quoth he For as yet they had not such opinion of him as they ought but Marie after the manner of mothers thought she should haue commanded her sonne in all thinges by her authoritie c. But the councell of Trent saith Bristow sheweth that she had more neede of Christes grace then all other saints to preserue her from sinne But in the meane time she had no neede of his redemption for the remission of sinne who was appoynted to saue his people from their sinnes who came to seeke and to saue that which was lost both of the house of Israel and of the Gentiles so many as attained saluatiō So therefore howsoeuer Bristow scorneth at my diuinity I will still conclude that the virgin Mary beeing so principal a persō of Christs people was saued from her sinnes by the redemption of his bloode was lost but sought vp and saued by him Which diuinitie being taken out of the scriptures I trust is more commendable then the contrarie doctrine deriued from the Pelagians and defended by the Papistes The 10. poynt of mine ignorance is about the definition of an heretike whom I saide to be a man in the Church I haue shewed before that I distinguish betweene him that is in the Church and him that is of the Church a Papiste an Anabaptist may be in the Church but they cannot be of the Church except they repent Where I added vnto my definitiō that if any of vs can be proued obstinately to mainteine our opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the scriptures we refuse not to be counted heretikes Bristow saith they may say the like But the triall is all Bristow saith they bring plaine scriptures to proue that all the doctrine of the Apostles traditions is the doctrine of the scriptures And we say the same that whatsoeuer the Apostles deliuered in speech they deliuered also in writing and neither contrarie to other But that all true doctrine necessarie to saluation is not conteined in the scriptures that you proue not neither that such things were of the Apostles deliuerie as you call traditions of the Apostles As for the particular poyntes you prate of concerning the time of the Churches persecution and Antichristes raigne haue beene answered in their proper places The wordes of Christ This is my body we acknowledge to be true in such sense as he spake them neither can you prooue that they importe your carnall Carpernaiticall presence what you hold of Iustification by workes Worshipping of Images Insufficiencie of Christes redemption Impeccabilitie of Marie c. contrarie to the expresse and plaine textes of the scripture it were out of place here o make rehersall The 11. is mine ignorance in wondring at Allen for saying that a christian scholer should first beleeue and after seeke for vnderstāding he hath noted cap 10. Dem. 34. and there haue I answered The 12. poynt proceedeth of like ignorance where I am said to wonder when I heare that the sacrifice of the masse is a likenesse of the sacrifice of Christs death vpon the crosse And then I am asked whether I know not that sacramentes are not likenesses of other thinges and Augustine is called to witnesse with much adoe as though it is all one to haue sacramentes which are similitudes of Christs death and to haue a sacrifice of similitude or likenesse which I saide truly was contrary to the whole scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come which I spake supposing that Allen by likenes of the exemplar meaneth the masse with all the apish pageants thereof to be like the sacrifice of Christes death And indeede it was that monstruous saying of Allen which I wondered at By likenesse of the exemplar as indeede being in an other maner the verie selfe-same But Bristow setting a good countenance vpon so great an absurditie asketh what boy hath not hearde it saide of one the same man being changed by age sicknesse apparel shauing c. he is like or vnlike himselfe But tontrariewise what boy in Oxford or Cambridge would not reply that this similitude or likenesse or vnlikenesse is of two seuerall shapes and not of one and the same substance vnto it selfe as Allen saith the sacrament is like the body of Christ and is the very same in another maner that is vnder couerture of accidentes that belong to another kinde of substance But Bristowe is not so quicke to vnderstand me where I vnderstand not my selfe as he weeneth where I say neither will it helpe that Allen saith it is the selfesame in another manner so longe as the same respect remaineth I am sorie that Bristowe is so dull headed that he cannot vnderstand what the same respecte meaneth in opposition which if it not obserued in the thinges opposed they are not alwayes opposite and specially relatiues who hange altogether vpon respect But Bristowe asketh who can imagine that the verie same respecte remaineth when the same manner doth not remaine Why sir what is the respect of the likenesse of the sacrifice of the masse with the exemplar seeing you confesse the manner tobe vnlike but the verie identitie of the thing sacrificed which is the monster that I maruaile at as also that you cannot imagine the same respect where there is not the same manner Is not God the father of our Lord Christ in the same respect that Abraham is the father of Isaak but yet after a farre other manner yea to follow your owne wise examples is not Abraham father of Isaak in the same respecte when Isaak is yonge and when he is olde when he
of them that are hence departed c. This saying proueth a remembrance but not a prayer neuerthelesse of this remembrance vsed in the elder times they gathered prayers to be profitable But more clearely that it was a remembrance without prayers it appeareth by Epiphanius which interpreteth the same remembrance to be as a prayer for the sinners and for the righteous of all sortes to be a distinction of them from our sauiour Christ cont Aer ser. 75. 5 Of sacrifice and for the deade The name of sacrifice which the fathers vsed commoÌ„ly for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke of the Gentiles you might adde and of the Iewes also for that somewhere I doe affirme But howe proue you they had it of the scriptures Because Christ saide not this is I that was borne of the virgin but this is my body this is my bloude The Apostle saith not of him that eateth vnworthely that he is guiltie of Christ but he is guilty of the bodie and bloude of Christ. Why Bristowe doest thou dreame we speake of the name of sacrifice whether it bee vsed in scripture for the celebration of the Lordes supper But if I knewe saith he what is the sacrifice of a liue thing I shoulde see that Christ is heere as properly sacrificed in a mysticall manner as he was properly sacrificed on the crosse in an open manner Syr I knowe what S. Paul meaneth when hee exhorteth vs to offer vp our bodies a liuing sacrifice Rom 12. yet I am neuer the neere to vnderstand your mystical sacrifice of a very bodie vnder the mysterie of shape and colour of breade Also as blinde as you make me I see the Altar Heb. 13. of which it is not lawful for the Iewes to eate so long as they remaine in Iudaisme but that sacrifice is the death of Christ whereof none that continue in obseruation of the Leuiticall Lawe can be partakers As for the table of the Lorde and the table of diuels in one forme of speach 1. Cor. 10. proueth no sacrifice of the Lordes table opposite to the sacrifice of the Gentils but the feast of the Lordes table contrarie to the feast of the idoll offerings whereof the controuersie was and not of communicating with the sacrifices of the Gentils For if hee had ment of the sacrifices of both he woulde haue na 〈…〉 ed the altar of the Lorde and the altar of diuels For 〈◊〉 alter is proper for a sacrifice as a table for a feast or â—past So that yet I stande to mine olde assertion I canâ—ot finde one worde or one syllable in the scripture of â—ny sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last supper But â—ontrariwise I finde in the scripture that he offered onâ—y one sacrifice propitiatorie and that but once vpon the â—rosse Heb. 9. 10. Purgatorie Where I shewe out of Tertullian de anima cap. de recepâ—u that the opinion of Purgatorie after this life came first from the hethen philosophers as most notable heresies did seing all philosophers that graunted the immortalitie of the soule as Pythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned three places for the soules departed Heauen hell and a thirde place of purifying This argument saith Bristowe proueth as wel that heauen hel â—he immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the â—hilosophers He is a perillous Logician that can so coÌ„â—ude For heauen hel and the immortalitie of the soule â—re founde in the scriptures which are before all philosophers but of the thirde place of purifying we may say as Augustine doth contra Pelag. hypognost lib. 5. Tertium peâ—itus ignoramus The thirde place we know not at al neither doe we finde it in the holy scriptures But if I would reporte the trueth Bristowe saith there is no worde of any thirde place of purifying but that those philosophers made onely two sorts of receptacles But if I find three and the third a place of purifying what shall we thinke of Bristowes trueth First hee graunteth supernas mansiones the high mansions for the soules of the Philosophers and wise men onely secondly Inferos hell or the lowe places whereof Tertulian saith Reliquas animas ad inferos deijciunt the rest of the soules they cast downe into hell 3. What say you Bristowe al the soules except Philosophers soules Could you not see betweene them imprudentes animas the foolish soules remayning according to the Stoikes about the earth which shoulde bee instructed of the wise soules What was this but a third place and a place of purifying But if you woulde haue your purgatorie more plainely described you may resort to Virgil Aeneid 6. where Anchises out of the opinion of Pythagoras rehearseth howe the soules of good men are purged Quin supremo cum lumine vita reliquit c. After this life hath left them saith he yet is not all euill nor all the infections of the bodie departed froÌ„ them and it is necessarie that such things as haue beene long gathered together shoulde by meruailous meanes be done away Therefore they are exercised with paines and suffer the punishment of their auncient euills some soules are hanged vp against the voyde windes to some their sinne remayning is washed away vnder great raging waters or burned vp with fire Euery one of vs suffer our punishments and then being but fewe wee are sent into the ioyfull Elysian fieldes c. Nowe concerning the three kindes of Purgatorie which I saide that Carpocrates the heretike inuented proued by the payment of the vttermost farthing as the papists doe theirs Bristow saith by this argument I wil winne much honestie bicause the purgatorie that Carpocrates inuented was a wallowing in all sinfull operation c. What is that to mine honestie I saide he inuented a kinde of purgatorie and Bristowe saith it was an absurde kinde of purgatorie I said he proued his purgatorie as the papists doe theirs but to that Bristowe aunswereth neuer a worde But this is small honestie for Bristow that such things as are ioyned together by me to shewe by what degrees popishe purgatorie came to perfection they are seuered by him as though I ment to charge the Papistes by such argumentes to confute their purgatorie Purgatorie fire I said that purgatorie fire was taken of the Originists For Origen brought in the purging fire by better reason out of 1. Cor. 3. for all soules then the papistes doe 〈…〉 r some soules and the name of purgatorie fire began 〈…〉 bout Augustines time by some Mediators that would 〈…〉 ccorde Origens error which was of purging all soules 〈…〉 i th the erronius practise of praying for the deade out â—f which they gathered the purging of some soules That I say of Origen although Bristowe confesse it to 〈…〉 e true in effect yet he saith I speake it without proofe My proofe is in Psal. 36. Ho. 3. Si verò in hac vita contemâ—imus c. But if in this life we contemne the words
my parish Church hee declareth that hee doth wilfully mistake my saying of beeres and bearing clothes as though I denyed any thing that is comelye when I speake against superstition and couetuousnesse The seconde parte concerning the errors that hee layed cap. 4. to the fathers and not to vs. 1. Touching the heresies that were in their times He demaundeth what a thing it is that I charge the Church in the Apostles time with heresies that were in the Apostles times and the same Church in three Arrian Emperors times with the heresie of Arrius I answere that I neuer charged either the Apostles or the faithfull members of the Church or the true Church it selfe with any heresies that were in their times But aunswering the demaunde Ar. 15. what Church it was that hath alwayes stoode still and stedfast while all congregations of heretikes haue decayed I say The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast and inseparable from Christe her heade when all heretikes haue beene and shall bee consounded although shee haue not alwayes florished in worldly peace For vntill the time of Constantine the great the Church had small reste And soone after vnder the Emperours Constantius Constano and Valens it was greatly infected with the heresie of Arrius Where Bristowe falsifieth my wordes reporting that I saye The true Church was infected c. the name of the Church is oftentimes generally taken for the whole number of them that professe Christianitie as when I saye the Church was persecuted by the heathen Emperours I meane all that woulde professe Christianitie among whiche were manye heretikes that suffered persecution also Lykewise when I say the Church was infected I meane the visible Church in whiche are alwayes manye hypocrites according to the parable of the nette and of the tares c. yea I doubt not but many of GODS electe were infected with that heresie in those times which afterwarde repented and returned to the knowledge of the trueth wherfore my meaning was nothing lesse then to charge the true Church of Orthodoxie and true profession with the heresie of Arrius or any other which it did openly detest and abhorre An other quarel he hath against me where I saide Ar. 35. That the true Church decayed immediately after the Apostles times In which place after I had shewed what corruption of doctrine had beene receiued of that greatest lights and pillers of the Church from which it was not like that most of the inferior members could bee free I conclude according to the demand which was to declare by good history or reasonable likelyhood wheÌ„ the true church did decaie that it decayed immediately after the Apostles times meaning as the demaunde serueth also to vnderstande the word of decaying when it began to decay not as Bristow cauilleth wheÌ„ it was vtterly decaied came to nothing for such decaying I vtterly deny that euer it was or euer shal be If we see some principall postes of an house begin to putrifie may wee not say this building doth decaye Or being asked when it decayed after it is come to a more ruinous state and yet standeth may wee not aunswere it decayed first when such a beame or post began to put rifie I doubt not but euery man of reasonable vnderstanding wil acknowledge how folish these cauils are which are taken of ambiguitie of words and misconstruing of phrases cleane contrarie to my meaning expressed in plaine euident tearmes and hundreth times at least in these my bookes namely that the Church although it be persecuted by tyrants assaulted by heretikes vndermined by hypocrites enuyed and maligned by the diuell himselfe yet the gates of hell shall neuer preuaile against it to roote it out of the worlde or to hinder the saluation of any one true member thereof Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee S. Iustinus If these doctors haue erred saith Bristow in any thing yet this thing is notable that not so much as in any one of their errors they are of your side A notable matter in deede that we hold not so much as any one error which they did hold But you wil not say the contrary for shame but that we hold many truthes which they helde We resist you say their ful whole consent That is vtterly false you haue not their ful whole consent for any point of popery prayer for the deade is the oldest error you haue except the superstition of Angels and the pharisaicall doctrine of iustification Shew me the ful whole consent of al the fathers for it whose writings are extant shewe me Iustinus Irenaeus Origenes Cyprianus Clemens Alexandrinus or any within 200. yeares after Christ except Tertullian a Montanist that in his writings maintaineth prayer for the deade But you will tell vs whereto you papists ascribe infallible truth First to the canonical scriptures tradition of the Apostles to the decrees of Peter his chayre to the whole church to the conseÌ„t of fathers councels both generall and prouincial confirmed by Peters successor We know this wel inough but I doe rehearse it in your owne termes that it may appeare you are not ashamed to match diuerse autorities equal in truth infallible with the holy scriptures inspired of God that alone are able to instruct a man to saluation and prepare him to euerie good worke For these autorities you vrge not onely where they agree with the scriptures but also wher you blasphemously suppose the scriptures to be vnperfect as that they haue omitted any thing needeful to saluation or the aduancement of Gods glorie in true religion The errors of the fathers we doe not reueale to their dishonour but to the honour of God Let God onely be true euery man a lyer yea Peter Peters successor a thousand times Whereas you take vpon you to mitigate the errors of the fathers named in the title you labour in 〈…〉 e we know they erred not of malice but being de 〈…〉 ued with similitude of trueth But where you say it 〈…〉 s no great matter for Irenaeus Papius and other to 〈…〉 ue erred in the opinion of the Chiliasts vntill the Church had condemned peraduenture that opinion in the heretiks called Mellenaries you shewe what certeintie of trueth you haue out of the scriptures yet you make it but a peraduenture that the Church hath condemned that error Last of all where you say in excuse of the error of Iustinus concerning angels that expresse mention is made Gen. 6. of the sinne of the Angels calling the translation of the septuaginta authenticall which translateth the Angels of God insteede of the sonnes of God you geue great cause of suspicion that you are not cleare of that error your selfe 3 Touching second mariages and S. Hierom. Where I say Act. 35. it seemeth that the Church in the 〈…〉 me of Iustinus was in some error about second marriâ—ges and diuorcement Bristowe is angrie that I
bee the author the Prophetes and Apostles for witnesses vnder this antiquitie that which had an erroneus beginning shall haue a shamefull ending Purg. 399. Heere Bristowe taketh aduantage of the Printers error although he be admonished 〈◊〉 of in the Corrections and not content with that 〈…〉 fieth my wordes making me to say as for witnesse 〈◊〉 this antiquitie we passe not for them Yes 〈◊〉 we esteeme all good witnesses of that auncient 〈◊〉 whereof God is the author But you say the rule w 〈…〉 receyue proueth the Apostles to be authors of sole 〈…〉 payer for the dead in the Masse such like articles 〈◊〉 taught and beleeued before Luther began such 〈…〉 uations c. But I reply that Vincentius rule is 〈◊〉 such fooles fable but requireth antiquitie to bee 〈…〉 tinued alwayes euen from Christ which seeing you 〈◊〉 not shewe noâ— other conditions which hee requi 〈…〉 for your articles his rule helpeth you nothing at a◠〈◊〉 rule which he handleth at large throughout his b 〈…〉 is briefly set downe in this sentence In ipsa 〈…〉 Ecclesia mag 〈…〉 〈◊〉 est 〈◊〉 id 〈◊〉 qâ—â—d 〈◊〉 qâ—â—d 〈…〉 er 〈◊〉 ab 〈…〉 us 〈…〉 est 〈…〉 propriâ—que C 〈…〉 n qâ—â—d iâ—sa 〈…〉 q 〈…〉 d 〈…〉 A 〈…〉 the Catholike Church it selfe wee must greatly 〈◊〉 that wee hold that thing which hath bene euery 〈…〉 which hath beene alwayes which hath beene of all 〈◊〉 beleeued for that is truely and properly Ca 〈…〉 which the verie force and reason of the name d 〈…〉 reth that comprehendeth al thinges truely 〈…〉 ly Examine your articles by this rule aâ—d you 〈◊〉 finde not one of them catholike So that my excep 〈…〉 of the soueraigne authority of only scripture 〈…〉 deth 〈◊〉 well with the rules both of Tertulliâ—â— and Vince 〈…〉 Lyri 〈…〉 For to the trueth as Aristotle saith all 〈…〉 ges agree that are true but fâ—lshoode soone bewrayeth itselfe 2 Aga 〈…〉 the A 〈…〉 〈◊〉 Aga 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 ed traditions of the Apo 〈…〉 I make exceptioÌ„ of the writinges of the Apostles to bâ—â— the onely c 〈…〉 yne 〈…〉 esse of theâ—â— true tradition Aâ—d I saye Allâ—â— blâ—â—phâ—mously fâ—thereth â—ppon the Apo 〈…〉 the institution of popish prayer and sacrifice for the 〈…〉 〈…〉 we chargeth me neuerthelesse to affirme that 〈◊〉 Cyprian Augustine Ierome and a great ma 〈…〉 are witnesses hereof Pur. 362. wherin he shame 〈…〉 y belyeth mee for that I do onely rehearse parte of 〈…〉 s wordes which affirmeth them to be witnesses 〈…〉 ch thing Bristowe might easily see by the diuersi 〈…〉 of print if he had not beene disposed to â—â—â—under me 〈…〉 er this by the example of Allen which is a great po 〈…〉 I pose the Papistes with this question Why God 〈…〉 uld haue none of the Apostles to put this matter or 〈…〉 e worde thereof in writing which afterward shoulde 〈◊〉 disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Augustine c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bristow after much bibling out of S. Augustin 〈…〉 e Apostles haue not left in writing the whole order 〈…〉 celebration of the sacraments answereth that one piece of 〈◊〉 that it was omitted by the apostles was for bre 〈…〉 s sake But I Bristow do not speake of any order or 〈…〉 me of ceremonies which because they are variable 〈…〉 cording to times places persons the apostles haue 〈◊〉 prescribed but of the doctrin of praying sacrifising 〈…〉 r the dead which in much lesse bâ—â—uitie then the 〈…〉 stles vsed might haue beene without any tedi 〈…〉 nes let downe at the least in one worde mentioned 〈…〉 herfore breuitie could be no piece of the cause but a 〈…〉 ore miserable refuge of a papist driuen to the wall 〈…〉 r want of a better answere But if this be a piece what is then 〈◊〉 supplemeÌ„t of the whole cause Bristow answereth in these words 〈…〉 to 〈…〉 in 〈…〉 g. Which 〈…〉 so many â—f 〈…〉 one of â—wspanâ— wâ—â—ld 〈…〉 Do I imagine Bristowe am so greatly 〈…〉 ceiued I follow not mine own imagination but their 〈…〉 ne writing S. Iohn testifieth that those things which 〈◊〉 had written were su 〈…〉 to obtaine euerlasting life 〈…〉 y beleeuing them Io 〈…〉 S. Luke â—â—eweth his purpose 〈◊〉 〈…〉 th in a 〈◊〉 summe the trueth of all thinges 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 les deliuered concerning the docâ—â—ine 〈…〉 ngs of Christ L 〈…〉 Ac 〈…〉 S. Paul 〈…〉 eth that the holy scriptures were able to make the man of God perfe 〈…〉 prepared to all good workes 2 Tim. 2. But you haue greate reason to proue that they purposed not to put all in writinge because neither so many of them nor o 〈…〉 of them so often would haue meÌ„tioned one thing wh 〈…〉 as contrariwise it is manifest thereby that they studie not so much for breuitie but that they might haue expressed in a word or two prayers sacrifice for that deaâ— seing so manye of them some one so often doeth mention one thing Againe it were againste reason that they shoulde mention one thing so often whicâ— though it be profitable yet it is not necessarie to bee often mentioned to omitte altogether such matten as are necessarie to bee knowne and not in one worde mention them The purpose of the holy ghost that Bristowe doth imagine were in writing the scriptures to a bare effect that the gospels were written onely to shewe Christ to say Consummatum est and al things to be fulfilled of him which were written of him the Actes of the Apostles to shew but as it were the first birth of the Church the Apocalipse to shew the whole course of the Churche to the ende of the worlde The other bookes were written saith he specially against the perfidious Iewes other false maisters of that time As likewise in euerie age afterwarde we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not the Canonicall writers and councels See you not how the blasphemous dog restraineth the vse of the Apostles epistles specially to the time in which they were written coÌ„pareth Ecclesiasticall writers and councels with the canonical scriptures If this that he saith were true the scriptures were not sufficient to make a man wise to saluation as S. Paul saith wtout traditions Ecclesiastical writers 2. Tim. 3. Those thinges which S. Paul promiseth to set in order when he commeth 1 Cor. 11. I said must be vnderstood not of doctrine but of ceremonies as the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie Bristowe aunswereth that the solemne prayer for the deade in the celebration of the sacrifice is one of Saint Paules ordinances I reply if the doctrine of praying for the dead were contayned Saint Paules writing yea or in any part of the cano 〈…〉 all Scriptures wee would not striue for the forme 〈◊〉 prayer But if wee may adde newe doctrines vpon 〈…〉 ler of the Apostles tradition neither is the Scrip 〈…〉 e so perfect as the holy Ghoste affirmeth it to bee 〈…〉 ther can the
gappe be shutt from any heresie to 〈…〉 a st it selfe of the tradition of the Apostles as the Va 〈…〉 tinians and other heretikes haue done and all he 〈…〉 ikes may do But tradition of the Apostles is as good as their wri 〈…〉 gs To this obiection I aunswere that their writings 〈◊〉 the onlye true testimonie of their tradition to vs. 〈…〉 stowe replyeth So were they not to the Thessalonians 〈◊〉 they had of S. Paul traditions partly by worde of mouth 〈…〉 tly by writing I reioyne that wee haue no traditions 〈◊〉 the Apostes but by their writing wee neuer hearde 〈◊〉 deliuer any thing by word of mouth but we know 〈…〉 ir writings contein the summe of their preachings Concerning the doubtfulnesse and contradiction that 〈…〉 yde was in the fathers them selues about those mat 〈…〉 s that are not conteined in the Scriptures Bristowe 〈…〉 nswereth first their doubts are not of the traditions 〈…〉 t of circumstances of persons and other matters con 〈…〉 ning the traditions which is as much as I shewed by 〈…〉 amples and testimonies out of their writings Purg. 〈…〉 7. Ar. 39. Pur. 317. The contradiction supposed to be in Chrysostome where he sayeth first that small helpe can be procured for the dead afterwarde he sayeth the Apostles knewe that much commoditie came to the dead by praying â—or them Bristowe aunswereth is none at all For in 〈…〉 e first place he speaketh of riche men which did not pro 〈…〉 e any comfort to their soules by their riches that their friends 〈…〉 n procure but little in respect of that they might haue procured 〈…〉 em selues because a mans owne workes are also meritorious 〈◊〉 euerlasting rewarde so are not his friends workes meritori 〈…〉 vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine 〈…〉 his owne nothing like But how a man 's owne workes 〈…〉 his friendes workes may be either meritorious or satisfactorious any thing at all he bringeth no proofe 〈◊〉 all And that he sayeth of Chrysostome is vtterly false for if istos be referred in the former sentence defleam 〈…〉 istos vnto those riche men so dying onely what reasoâ— is there why orantes pro istis should not be referred vnto them also But seeing the memory which he saiâ—â— was decreede of the Apostles was generall for all theâ— that departed in faith why should not that much profite comming thereby pertaine to them of whoâ—â— he sayde before that small helpe they could haue Likewise that I added further of the Cathecumeni whâ—â— Chrysostome iudged of helping them Bristowe pas 〈…〉 ouer and sayeth neuer a worde vnto it 3 Against the Churches authoritie I saye plainly the practise and authoritie of the church without the worde of God reuealed in the scriptureâ— is no rule of trueth Where I commende Tertull 〈…〉 for confessing that prayers and oblations for the dead are not taken out of the Scriptures Bristowe sayeth I am hastie to take that which Tertullian doth not giue as he hath shewed in the thirde chapter but seeing in the thirde Chapter he referreth mee to the 9. Chapter thither also will I referre him for answere Where Allen alledgeth a rule of S. Augustine Quòd legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi that the order of the châ—â—ches prayer saith Bristowe is euen a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beleeue because Fulke could not make his florish with that ende forwarde he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine D. Allen had sayed that the lawe of beleeuing should make a lawe of praying And here he cryeth out of falsification by changing So sayeth S. Augustine saith Bristowe in that sense speaketh S. Augustine often against the Pelagians sayeth Allen but in what booke or chapter neither of both doeth shewe among so many treatises as Augustine hath written against the Pelagians Wherefore if I haue altered the forme of wordes yet without falsification especially seing it is a more probable sense and agreeable to the scriptures 〈…〉 t faith should teach vs to praye rather then prayer 〈…〉 che 〈◊〉 to beleeue For howe shall they call vppon 〈◊〉 sayeth the Apostle in whome they haue not belee 〈…〉 d Rom. 10. But seeing there is a mutuall relation 〈…〉 weene the cause and the effectes the one argueth 〈…〉 oueth the other For as faith teacheth men first to 〈…〉 ye so the prayer is an argument of the faith accor 〈…〉 g to which it is conceiued But true faith com 〈…〉 th onely by hearing the worde of God therefore 〈…〉 e prayer commeth onely by hearing the worde of 〈…〉 d and is not acceptable to God except it be framed 〈…〉 ording to the worde of God After this he sayeth I 〈◊〉 as bolde to except against the practise commen 〈…〉 d euen in the canonicall scripture because I allowe 〈…〉 t the practise of Iudas Machabaeus conteined in the 〈…〉 phane and lying booke of the Machabees I sayde Ar. 86. There is neuer heresie but there is as 〈…〉 at doubt of the church as of the matter in question 〈…〉 erefore only the Scripture is the staye of a mans con 〈…〉 nce Hereof Bristowe gathereth this great absurdi 〈◊〉 Because heretikes make doubt of the Church this heretike 〈◊〉 that no Christian leane vnto it Yes verily I will haue 〈◊〉 men that know the Church leane to the Church de 〈…〉 ding truth against heresies but for them that doubt 〈◊〉 the trueth and of the Church I saye only scripture i◠〈◊〉 staye of their conscience to trye the trueth and the Church both seing both heretikes Catholikes make as great challenge to the Church as to the trueth But some heretikes make doubt of the Scriptures sayeth he either all or some peece as you doe of the â—achabees I aunswere if any denye all Scriptures 〈…〉 ey are more like Paganes and Atheists then heretiks 〈…〉 th whome wee are not to reason by authoritie of 〈…〉 riptures but by other inducements such as were 〈…〉 d to the Paganes Against those heretikes that re 〈…〉 iue some part of the Scriptures wee are to dispute 〈…〉 t of those Scriptures which they receiue as our saui 〈…〉 r Christ confuted the Saducees out of the bookes of 〈…〉 oses because they receiued none other Scripture For the book of Macha bees we doubt not but are certaine it is a prophane booke as I haue shewed by many arguments neuer receiued in the primitiue Church fâ—â— 400. yeares after Christ. Where I say we submitted our selues to al Churcheâ— but so that they allow no consent or submission but 〈◊〉 the trueth which must be tryed onely by gods wordâ— Bristow saith with that but so we wil consent the trueâ—â— to Iacke strawe Verily to consent vnto Iacke straâ—â— in truth I take it to be none absurditie but I speake not onely of consent but also of submission which we are not readie to yeeld to any but such whose authoritie 〈◊〉 reuerence As for the 4.
your doctrine because you doe not iustifie it by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures But the faithfull you thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beleeued them vppon their owne worde both Christ and his Apostles because of the spirite of trueth that he sent to them And God be thanked we as faithfull men acknowledge without controuersie the spirite of trueth in Christ and his Apostles But he hath not sent his spirite to them onely sayeth Bristow but also to his Church after them for euer We doubt not but he hath giuen his spirite to his Church but not in such full measure as to his Apostles And if he had how should wee knowe that Church that hath the same spirite but by tryall of the scriptures which were vndoubtedly written by the same spirite Bristow saith the faithfull will no lesse beleeue the Church at all times for the same spirite then the Apostles He must first proue the spirite so giuen to the Church that shee can no more erre in her decrees then the Apostles could in their writings Secondly if that were proued the tryall of the Scriptures is necessary to discerne the true Church from all false congregations which all boast of the spirite of trueth as much as the true Church And seeing the holy ghost by his instrument S. Iohn biddeth vs not beleeue euery spirite but trye the spirites whether they be of God we knowe none so sure a triall as the consent of their doctrine with the holy scriptures whether it be a multitude of men or seueral persons of one age or another of one degree or other that offreth to teache any doctrine which he or they pretende to haue of the spirite of God Last of all where I sayde Age can neuer make falshod to be trueth and therefore I wâ—y not your prowd bragges worth a strawe Bristowe noteth in the margent It is pryde to follow the fathers and humilitie to condemne them Whereto I aunswere to boast of the fathers to maintaine an olde errour is stinking pryde and it is not against true humilitie to make fathers and mothers and all things else subiect to the trueth of Gods worde reuealed in the holy scriptures The second parte Being tolde that the question betweene vs is not as he maeketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the expositors he maketh the same exception of onely scripture requiring also scripture to be expounded by scripture When in all this Chapter you deny onely scripture to be of soueraine authoritie sufficiency and credite to teache vs all the will of God are you not impudent to saye the question is not of the authoritie of the Scriptures But I supposing the controuersies to be of the meaning and not of the authoritie Pur. 363. do aunswer nothing whether the likelihood bâ— on our side or on the auncient doctors side for the meaning of the scripture What then I aunswere the question of the meaning of the scriptures is needelesse in that controuersie where some of the doctors confesse prayer for the dead not to be grounded on the Scriptures other wrest the Scriptures so manifestly that the Papistes them selues are ashamed to vse those textes for such purposes This aunswere I trust will satisfie reasonable men for that controuersie After this he sayeth I count my selfe and my companions happie for such blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures only out of the Scriptures without the coÌ„mentaries of doctors but as he troweth not without the coÌ„mentaries of Caluine But herein as in all things almost he belyeth mee for I neuer spake word against the reading of the coÌ„mentaries of doctors in search of the Scriptures meaning but onely against absolute credite to be giuen to their exposition without weying how it agreeth with the holy Scriptures in other places Likewise where I compare the whole heape of superstition errour out of which Allen raiseth a mist of mens deuises to a dunghill Bristowe noteth that I make the doctors writings a dunghill Surely what superstition or errour so euer be in the doctors as the sweeping of a faire house is meete to be cast on a dunghill Let Bristowe or Allen if he list say there is no superstition or error in any of the doctors And yet it followeth not that the doctors writings are a dunghill more then that a kings pallace is a dunghil because the sweepings thereof are meete for the dunghill To passe ouer his rayling termes of drunkennesse blindnesse c. Let vs come to the meaning of the scriptures where I sayde wee shalbe neuer the more certeine of the trueth whether wee challenge or leaue the likelihod of vnderstanding the scriptures to the doctors Bristowe aunswereth whosoeuer expoundeth the scripture vnto that wherein the doctors doe agree shall bee euer most certaine of trueth which is inoughe though not alwayes certain of that same verie places meaning Wee are then much the neere when the question is of the scriptures meaning if by the consent of the doctors we cannot be certaine of the scriptures meaning And if that trueth as we beleeue that all trueth is in the scriptures howe can we be certaine of the trueth by the agreement of the doctors where we cannot be certain of the meaning of the scriptures Where I aunswere that wee haue our measure of Gods spirite as the doctors had although wee agree not with them in all interpretations euen as Cyprian and Cornelius were both indued with Gods spirite although they agreede not in exposition and iudgement of the scriptures Bristowe replyeth that Cyprian was of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè though explicitè hee were of an erronious iudgement And so is euerie Catholike erring of ignorance in effect of the trueth with other Catholikes not erring because hee qâ—eâ—ly continueth in vnitie with them and doth not obstinately holde his error against them But so is not the case betweene the olde Doctors and vs for neither will wee bee reformed by them neither woulde they be reformed by Aâ—rius Iouinianus c. whom he calleth our forefathers If you haue no greater diuersitie then this the case will be all one for neither woulde Cyprian be reformed by Cornelius neither woulde Cornelius bee re-Formed by Cyprian But if the olde Doctors had heard as good reasons against prayer for the deade of Catholikes in their time as wee can make in this time although they woulde not bee reformed by Aerius an heretike yet charitie moueth vs to thinke they would haue yelded to the trueth reuealed by a Catholike Where I conclude that the harde places of scripture are best vnderstoode by conference of the easier adding the ordinarie meanes of witt learning c. adding that whosoeuer is negligent in this search may eaâ—ie bee deceiued Bristowe noteth a comfortable do 〈…〉 rine for the ignorant forsooth As though any Christi 〈…〉 man or woman ought to bee ignoraunt in the 〈…〉 riptures
into the wildernesse at the comming of Antichrist is to become inuisible to the worlde Although this article bee not a matter of faith in controuersie betweene vs neither yet so affirmed of mee as though to bee in the wildernesse were nothing else but to bee inuisible to the worlde yet I will proue so much as I affirmed that the Church being in the wildernesse is inuisible to the worlde The Church being where the multitude of wicked men are not is to them inuisible But the multitude of wicked men are not in the wildernesse Therefore the Church being in the wildernesse is to the multitude of wicked men which is the world inuisible Thirdly hee requireth mee to proue that the beginning of that comming and flying shoulde bee so soone after Christes passion Before I proue this it were reason you should tell how sone you meane or I said such 〈…〉 mming and fleeing shoulde bee And the like I say 〈…〉 the continuance of so many ages and the ende so 〈…〉 g before Christes seconde comming The holy 〈…〉 ost declareth Apoc. 12. ver 5. that immediately after 〈…〉 rist was taken vp to God and his throne the woman 〈…〉 hich is the Church being persecuted by the dragon 〈…〉 d into the wildernesse The time of continuance is 〈…〉 uratiuely obscurely described by dayes monethes 〈…〉 d yeares and generally by a time times and halfe a 〈…〉 e which I neuer tooke vppon me to define howe 〈…〉 ng they should be in account of our yeres nor when 〈…〉 comming of Christ should be After this hee saith I triumph in lying when I af 〈…〉 me the Papistes dare not abyde the tryall of onely 〈…〉 ipture whereas he laboreth nothing so much in all 〈…〉 is Chapter as to prooue that the tryall of true do 〈…〉 ine ought not to bee onely by scripture And 〈…〉 terwarde hee sayth playnely they refuse the tryall 〈…〉 onely scriptures but not by scriptures no more 〈…〉 eu they refuse faith because they refuse onely faith 〈…〉 here hee noteth mee for foysting in the worde one 〈…〉 in the minor of this argument The spouse of 〈…〉 hrist heareth the voyce of Christ and is ruled there 〈…〉 y But the Romishe Church will in no wise bee 〈…〉 led onely by the voyce of Christ therefore shee is 〈…〉 ot of the spouse of Christ. I thought euerie reasona 〈…〉 le man woulde haue vnderstoode onely in the maior 〈…〉 so seeing she is no honest spouse that will bee ruled 〈…〉 y the voyce of an other man then her husbande or 〈…〉 hat will bee ruled by her selfe or take vppon 〈…〉 er to ouerrule her husbande I added also in the 〈…〉 inor which Bristow omitteth that the Romish church 〈…〉 goeth a whoring after her owne inuentions and com 〈…〉 mitteth grosse idolatrie Ar. 99. Where I charge the Popishe Church with blas 〈…〉 mie for submitting Gods word to her owne iudgemeÌ„t 〈…〉 he answereth it is al one as if I shold say the Apostles did blasphemously submit the scripture to the own will bâ— cause they tooke vppon them to iudge of the true s 〈…〉 and because S. Peter sayde the vnlearned being hiâ— selfe a fisherman and vnstable did misconster S. Pauâ— epistles c. to their owne damnation which is all 〈◊〉 as if Bristowe coulde make vs beleeue that the Apâ— stles tooke vppon them without the spirit of God 〈◊〉 contrarie to the scriptures in other places to iudge 〈◊〉 sense of any scripture as the Popish Church doeth 〈◊〉 that Saint Peter being an Apostle indued with so mâ— ny graces was vnlearned because hee had beene a 〈◊〉 sherman Agayne where I sayde the Popishe Church ma 〈…〉 festly reiecteth the whole autoritie of all the Cano 〈…〉 call scriptures when shee affirmeth that no booke 〈◊〉 holy scripture is Canonicall but so far foorth as sh 〈…〉 will allowe it This sayth Bristowe is as though 〈◊〉 Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiâ—cted the whole c because they made a Canon or Câ—nons whereof the sayde scriptures were and are call 〈…〉 Canonicall wherevppon him selfe also counteth th 〈…〉 as confirmed by the holy Ghost That the scriptu 〈…〉 are called Canonicall of such a Canon it is not yet proued for they may bee called the Canon and Canonicall because they are the certayne rule to directe 〈◊〉 matters of religion But admitte the Apostles or 〈◊〉 Church immediately after them in hauing the spir 〈…〉 of discretion made such a Canon to discerne true aâ—d diuine bookes from false and conterfeite books or writen by the spirite of man what is this like to that bl 〈…〉 phemous authoritie which the Popishe Church chalengeth that shee gaue authoritie to the scriptures and might as well haue receiued the Gospell of Bartholomewe as of Mathew of Thomas as of Iohn c whereby it followeth that by the like power shee may now reiect the Gospells of Mathewe and Iohn and receiue the Gospels of Bartholomew and Thomas Where I sayde the popish Bishoppes durst not abyde the conference at Westminster first he quarelleth 〈…〉 my phrase because I saide it was before the whole 〈…〉 rlde as one that care not what I say In deede I 〈…〉 de accompt of the iudgement of reasonable rea 〈…〉 s which woulde not take my wordes as though I 〈…〉 nt that all the whole worlde was gathered into 〈…〉 estminster Church but that the conference and dis 〈…〉 tation was so open and so notorious that all the world 〈…〉 ght haue knowledge of it Secondly hee calleth it a mocke conference in com 〈…〉 rison of the councell of Trent yet was there no or 〈…〉 r taken but such as was well liked of by the Papistes 〈…〉 m selues vntill they sawe their cause coulde carie no 〈…〉 dite Hee chargeth vs for refusing to come to the councell 〈◊〉 Trent being so solemnly honorably inuited with 〈…〉 h safeconductes c. To your safeconductes I aun 〈…〉 ere briefly the councel of Constance hath discredited 〈…〉 m for euer on your behalfes And to your disputati 〈…〉 there offered I say it was to no purpose in such a 〈…〉 cke councell where the Pope which is the princi 〈…〉 ll partie that is accused of heresie shall be the onely 〈…〉 dge and disposer of all thinges passed therein against 〈◊〉 good examples lawes equitie and reason Where you make Allen such a great exhibitioner 〈◊〉 our whole countrie I will not quarell at your phrase 〈…〉 t I maruell what great reuenewes hee hath in Flaun 〈…〉 rs that hee receyueth no exhibition as you say from any bodie But nowe to the fourefolde offer wherein first you say that the councell of Trent compted vs subiectes 〈◊〉 much as we compte you the subiectes of Englande â—e compt you as you shew your selues to bee errant â—aytors to Englande and the most godly prince of the 〈…〉 me our soueraigne Lady Queene Elizabeth as for 〈…〉 e conuenticle of Trent we owe no more subiection 〈…〉
not say that S. Paul might be deceiued in his writings epistles no more may the Church be I answere if S. Paul had proceeded further in prophecying then according to such knowledge as he had by reuelation argumentation out of the scriptures he might haue erred That he did not erre in his writings it was not because it was impossible for him to erre but because he did write nothing but that he had either by reuelation of Iesus Christes spirit or by argumentation out of the holy scriptures And therfore except the church haue such warrant as the Apostles elders had by reuelation the Scriptures Act. 15. she cannot truely say It hath beene thought good to the holy ghost vs. The 3. text is Ar. 88. where I saye It is true that S. 〈…〉 gustine saith euen the whole Church is taught to say 〈…〉 ry day Forgiue vs our trespasses But why so saith 〈…〉 stow because the whole Church doth erre in her de 〈…〉 minations euery day It were ridiculous so to say 〈…〉 t Augustine speake for vs both Propter quasdam igno 〈…〉 tias infirmitates membrorum suorum for certaine ig 〈…〉 rances and infirmities of her members The whole 〈…〉 urch for the ignorance of her members must say for 〈…〉 ue vs our debts but the whole Church neede not say 〈◊〉 except she may be deceiued through the ignorance of 〈…〉 r members therefore the whole church may be decei 〈…〉 d Apostles and al which did not erre in their writings 〈…〉 d determinations because it was impossible for them 〈◊〉 to doe whatsoeuer they had written or determined 〈…〉 t because in their writings and determinations they 〈…〉 ere directed by such reuelation as they had according 〈◊〉 the holy scriptures The 4 text is that the whole synagogue did erre but 〈…〉 ot the Church of Christ and that but in a fact not in 〈…〉 octrine nor the whole synagogue but a peece onely 〈…〉 hich was the example of Dauid carying the Arke of 〈…〉 od vpon a newe Chariot which should haue ben cary 〈…〉 d vpon mens shoulders 1. Chron. 13. So that there be no 〈…〉 sse then three walles saith Bristow betweene the Church 〈…〉 nd your shotte But by the grace of God I will shewe 〈…〉 hat they are al but paper walles that are erected against the trueth of â—od to binde it to the persons or places of men First saith Bristowe it was the synagogue and not the Church of Christ. Why Bristow was not the Church of Christ before Christ came into the flesh at least remember that S. Paul writeth 1. Cor. 10. Al our fathers were baptised and communicated with the bodie and bloude of Christ or else finde vs some other way of saluation then in the bodie of Christ whose member whosoeuer is not is sure of damnation or say that the Iewes being the members of the bodie of Christ were not the Church of Christ. The second wal that this was a fact and no doctrine is soone blowne downe if wee doe consider that the fact had neuer beene attempted but that it was tho 〈…〉 lawfull and Godly which was an error in doctrine The thirde wal is That the whole synagogue erred noâ— For he did not consult with the priest saith Bristow w 〈…〉 with his Tribunes Centurions nobles but onely w 〈…〉 the Lordes temporall hereupon he noteth my be 〈…〉 ly blindnesse but much rather may I note his m 〈…〉 strous and more then beastly impudence where the 〈◊〉 according to his own vulgar translation addeth to th 〈…〉 whom he nameth Et ait ad omnem coeâ—um Israel and 〈◊〉 the whole congregation of Israel If it please you quoâ— he and if the motion be of God let vs sende vnto 〈◊〉 rest of our brethren in all the coastes of Israel and 〈◊〉 the priestes and Leuits which dwell in the suburbs of the ciâ—ies that they may be gathered vnto vs c. These saith Bristowe were as you woulde say the hedge priestes Very well ergo all the heade priestes were present For otherwise howe coulde it be a perfect congregation of Israel where there wanted the principall members of the priests and Leuites for their tribe and degree And when he saith let vs sende to the rest of our brethren and those which he sent to of that degree were none but 〈◊〉 it were hedge Priestes as Bristowe affirmeth who will doubt but the chiefe Priestes were present except hee thinke they were not brethren vnto the rest But three monethes after saith Bristowe hauing founde out his error he gathered not onely all Israel â—â—d Ierusalem but also the sonnes of Aaron Sadoc and Abiathar c. 〈◊〉 though they were no part of Israel But these saith Bristowe he gathered as two Bishoppes and six other as it were Archdeacons and said vnto them You that are the heades of the Leuiticall families prepare your selues with your brethren and bring the Arke of our Lorde God of Israel to the place which is dressed for it least that as before because you were not present our Lord did smâ—te vs so nowe also it happen for our vnlawfull doing The words that Bristowe taketh holde off in his vulgar translation are that these principall priestes and Leuâ—tes were not present which as before it is proued 〈…〉 e so are they not in the Hebrew text LO ATTâ—M No◠〈…〉 the verbe is vnderstood which is in the senteÌ„ce before 〈…〉 t omitted which now they were commaunded to do 〈…〉 t is to carie the Arke So the sense is because you did 〈◊〉 carie it and not because you were absent For beside 〈…〉 t hath beene saide before of all the cheefe Priestes in 〈…〉 nerall howe coulde it be saide that Aminadab one of 〈◊〉 sixe was absent when the Arke was first brought 〈…〉 t of his house who if he had not ben deceiued should 〈…〉 ue tolde the king of his error before The 5. text is Ar. 86. where I say the true and onely 〈…〉 rch of Christ can neuer be voide of Gods spirite and yeâ— she◠〈…〉 y erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some thingeâ— â—uen 〈…〉 there is no true Christian man that is voide of Gods spirite ye◠〈…〉 y euery true Christian erre c. This my sophisme saith 〈…〉 istowe consisteth in speaking confusely of Gods spi 〈…〉 e as though the gift of it were one in the whole church 〈…〉 d in euery particular true Christian man But I say 〈…〉 t cleane contrarie to that he chargeth me I distin 〈…〉 ish of the gift of the spirite of God concerning adop 〈…〉 n that is in euery one of the faithfull by which hee 〈◊〉 priuiledged from erring vnto damnation and the 〈…〉 rite of trueth which is not giuen in such measure ei 〈…〉 r to the whole Church or to euery member but that 〈…〉 ey may erre in some thinges though not finally in 〈…〉 atters necessarie vnto saluation As for the promise 〈…〉
ohn 14. ver 16. of the comforter euen the spirit of truth to remaine with vs for euer and to leade vs into al truth If the later bee not restored to the Apostles howe can Bristowe proue that it must needes bee vnderstoode of 〈…〉 e whole Church onely and not of euery member s 〈…〉 g our sauiour Christ Iohn 17. prayeth not onely for 〈…〉 is Apostles but for all and euery one that should be 〈…〉 eeue in him through their preaching that they might 〈…〉 e sanctified in the trueth which is the worde of God â—nd eueÌ„ in the verie place cited Iohn 14. ver 15. promiseth 〈…〉 he comforter the spirite of trueth to euerye one 〈…〉 hat beleeueth in him And as he sent his spirite to leade 〈…〉 he Apostles into all trueth so his Apostles fayled not to deliuer that trueth as well in writing as in preaching considering that the one is more subiect to forgetful 〈…〉 and corruption then the other Wherefore the Church 〈◊〉 called the piller of trueth 1. Tim. 3. because it is buil 〈…〉 vpon the foundation of the prophets and Apostles Ep 〈…〉 2. which had the whole trueth of the gospel reuealed 〈◊〉 to them not because the Church shoulde haue the spirite of trueth to reueale any trueth vnto her which w 〈…〉 not reuealed to the Apostles and by them as well iâ— their writings as in their preachings So that the sa 〈…〉 gift of the spirite being in the whole Church that is iâ— euerie member and distinct from the gift of the spirite in such measure as the Apostles had it in their preaching and writing the argument by me set downe is sound no sophisme at all 2 That the Church may be diuorced I neuer saide that the true Catholike church of Christ may be diuorced from him but the visible particular Church of some place time as the prophet Esay complaineth that the church of Ierusalem by idolatrie superstition had separated her selfe from Christ was refused of him Esa. 1. How is the faithfull citie become an haâ—lot c. And so may the prophet say to the church of Rome Brist asketh whether the prophet do say so to Rome yea â—erely For the idolatrie of Rome is nothing lesse in this time then it was in his time of IerusaleÌ„ But I am too too ignorant Bristow saith in the scriptures if I know not herein the difference betweene the synagogue of the Iewes and the Church of Christ to wit that the synagogue with her IerusaleÌ„ might shuld be diuorced but the Church of Christ with her Ierusalem which is Rome saith Bristow if you haue any sight in the Actes of the Apostles should neuer nor neuer might be diuorced c. If mine ignorance be so great why do you not with one text at the least help to teach me that the visible Church of Christ since his incarnation consisting of the Gentiles may not as wel be separated from him as the Church of Christ before his incarnation consisting of the Iewes As for 〈◊〉 diuorcement you imagine of all the whole on the 〈…〉 th it neuer was ne shal be Againe that Rome is the 〈…〉 usalem of the Church of Christ where finde you in 〈…〉 c Acts of the Apostles which haue so good sight in 〈…〉 em I gesse this is your argument S. Luke beginneth 〈…〉 s storâ—e at Ierusalem and endeth at Rome ergo Rome the Ierusalem of the Church of Christ. But when you 〈…〉 n proue the consequens of this argument I wil say as 〈…〉 ou say In the meane time I say there is small likely 〈…〉 od that Rome should be the Ierusalem of the Church 〈…〉 f Christ seeing Peter being at Rome is not once meÌ„ti 〈…〉 ed in all the Actes of the Apostles nor in any other 〈…〉 ooke of holy scripture But if you had as great sight 〈◊〉 the Epistle to the Galathians as you imagine your 〈…〉 lfe to haue in the Actes of the Apostles there might 〈…〉 ou learne Cap. 4. that the Ierusalem of the Church of â—hrist is not Rome on earth but Ierusalem which is a 〈…〉 oâ—e which is the mother of vs all As for the reiecting 〈…〉 f the Iewes and calling of the Gentiles euen vntill the 〈…〉 lnesse and the restoring of the Iewes of which you pro 〈…〉 hecy without the booke that they shal be al Christened in 〈…〉 e end of the world are matters impertineÌ„t to this que 〈…〉 tion of the visible Churches diuorcement 3 That euen the Church of Christ shoulde prepare the way 〈…〉 o Antichrist This saith Bristow is a straunge imagination of him and his fellowes It is the totall summe of all their new diuinitie yet no warrant at all they haue for it out of the scripture But I pray you Bristowe who euer saide that the Church of Christe prepared the way to Antichrist I said Ar. 35. Manie abuses entred into the Church of Christ immediately after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for antichrist Do I not here plainely say the diuell planted them as a preparatiue Againe Ar. 38. I saide The scripture telleth vs that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the generall defection and reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules tim 〈…〉 2. Thessa. 2. First he quarreleth that general is my worâ— and not saint Paules I confesse but it is S. Paules m 〈…〉 ning which speaketh not of a small or particular but 〈◊〉 that great and generall defection which in other pa 〈…〉 of scripture is foreshewed to bee from Christ vnto Antichrist Apoc. 13. 17. and yet not so generall but th 〈…〉 Christ shall haue his Church still vpon earth Secondlâ— he demaundeth whether the scripture tell me that it wrâ—ugâ— in the Church of Christ and aunswereth himselfe no wordâ— so 〈◊〉 wrought in the persecuters c. of the Church of Christ. And what scripture telleth you so Is open persecution a mysteâ—iâ— of iniquitie You say better in the seducers and where began the seducers but in the visible Church although they be no members of the true and Catholike Churchâ— That our heresie is the last or next the last before the reuelation before you goe about to shewe as you promise you must proue it to bee an heresie otherwise then the religion of Christ was or the Infidels Iewes Gentileâ— called an heresie That the Church of Christ is alwayes a conâ—empâ—ible companie I neuer saide so but after diuerse authorities and reâ—sons brought to shewe howe the worlde accounteth of the Church I conclude Ar. 81. That as the Church in thâ— sight of God and his sancts is most glorious and honorable so in the sight of the worlde it hath alwayes beene most base and contemptible To the scriptures I alledge 1. Cor. 〈◊〉 Gal. 6. Ro. 1. that the crosse and Christ crucified thereon which are all the glorie of the Church are condemned of the worlde
argumentes with that impudent slaunder of all the church of God which he affirmeth was ignorant that any soules went to heauen before their church had defined it within these 300. yeres I passe ouer come to the matter in question I said Purg. 57. against Allen mainteining that all the iust before Christ were punished for their sinnes forgiuē ma ny hundreth yeres after their departure in hel That the fathers of the olde testament before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest arguments autorities out of holy scriptures Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednes God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs shuld not be made perfect Heb. 11. But by this text saith Brist S. Paul doth meane that their soules were not yet admitted into heauen How proueth he that forsooth the old testament did consummate nothing c. but their sinnes remaining not perfectly remitted Christ died c. A sore bolt as though any man had his sinnes forgiuen but by the new testament or could be heire of the kingdom of heauen but by the death of Christ. But the same apostle saith Heb 9. That the way of the saints was not yet opened while the first tabernacle stood Bristow addeth to the text of his own into soncta or heauen wher the apostle meaneth of the worke of Christs redemption in his death resurrection ascension the effect wherof neuertheles was extended no lesse to the fathers of that olde testament then to vs. Thirdly the apostle saith Heb. 10. that we haue confidence to enter in to the holy place by the bloud of Iesus which hath dedicated that new liuing way for vs through the vayle that is his flesh All which proueth nothing but that there is no entrance into heauen but by Christ which way is comon to all the saintes of God of all ages But Bristow biddeth me conferre the end of my text Heb. 11. with the beginning where he saith they receiued not the promise which is the expositiō of their not consummating I admit it for no Christian receiueth the promise consummate before the resurrection of their bodies The consummation of which promise perfection of the saints God reserueth vnto one time when we shal all receiue the promise consummation together that they without vs saith he shoulde not be consummate the same reason is of the apostles fathers of the primitiue church vs of the later church them that shal be to the end of the world Now to mine arguments autorities of scripture I reason that seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life entred not into condemnation but passed frō death to life Ioh. 5. To what life saith Bristow but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntil the last day all the dead are in death O prodigious heretike call you that a passage frō death to life to continue in death 5. or 6. thousād years Is God then to this new Saducee the god of the dead not of the liuing yea he saith that life after corporal deth in the new testament lightly euery where signifieth the resurrection of the bodies What is it then to take hold of eternall life in this world which shal be interrupted with so long abyding in death 1. Tim. 6. And how can it be true which our sauiour saith he that beleueth in me hath alreadie eternal life if they that are passed out of this world are all in death wherfore then is this eternall life interupted with any Purgatorie Limbus patrum or death The second argument is of that Christ is called the lamb that was slaine from the beginning of the worlde because the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike Apoc. 13. To this the beast hath nothing to answere but that it is not said that the lambe was slaine from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobates shal adore antichrist whē he cometh And because Apoc. 17. the words be whose names were not written in the booke of life frō the beginning of the world he would haue those wordes from the beginning of the world by a monstrous construction contrary to the manifest composition and pointing both in the Greeke vulgare Latine to be referred not to the lamb slaine but to the booke of life As though both those textes in their seuerall sense might not be true except such manifest violence were offered to the construction cōposition pointing in this text of the Apoc. Yet he confesseth it to be true that the lambe was slaine from the beginning of the world which is no where else written in the scripture but heere the cause of the trueth he will not haue to be my fonde sense but because his death was preordeined of God and prefigured so long before A substantiall cause by which we may say that Bristowe was dead from the beginning of the world because his death was so long before ordeined of God and prefigured in the death of Adam The third argument is that Esay speaking of that righteous that are departed out of this life sayeth that there is peace and that they shall rest in their beddes Esa. 57. like as he affirmeth that Topheth which is Gehinnon or hell is prepared of olde for the wicked To this he answereth that Esay speaketh not of his owne time but as a Prophet of the time now since the cōming of Christ who is our peace as though Christ were not their peace as well as oures And what a shamelesse answere is this to denye the doctrine of the Prophet concerning the comfort of the faithfull after death to perteine to the faithfull of his owne time to whome then it was in vaine preached and published by the Prophet After a little quarreling against my translatiō the sense wherof he cannot deny he asketh if the rest of the soules must needes be the blisse of heauen and telleth vs that their Limbus was not a place of sensible paine But sir Salom whereinto the Prophet sayeth the righteous doe goe will not onely giue them rest without sense of paine but peace with happinesse and prosperitie Finally he sayeth Topheth or Gehenna was not the onely hell because our Creede and the Scripture sayeth that Christes soule was in hell I answere that hell signifyeth either the place or state of torments for sinnes in the former Caluine whome you slaunder sayth not that Christ was in but in the later when he complained that he was forsaken of God there is not therefore proued by Christes discending into hell any other place or receptacle of soules in hell but Topheth and Gehenna the place of the damned The fourth argument against Limbus is that Lazarus was carryed by Angels not downe to hell but vp to Abrahams bosome But the riche man being in hell looked vp and seeth Abraham afarre of Bristowe asketh whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie to
that is the circum 〈…〉 ised the vncircumcised are al iustified by faith as Aâ—raham in both the states was iustified by faith without the workes of the law although as Iames sayth he was â—ustified before men by his oblation which was but a 〈…〉 riall of his faith and obedience Where the Apostle 〈…〉 ayeth Tit. 3. not by the workes of righteousnes which we haue done but according to his owne great mercie 〈…〉 e saved vs by baptisme Bristowe asketh if I marke the temps Yea very well he speaketh of workes before faith And doth it therefore followe that works done after faith doe iustifie Saint Paule extendeth the saluation which is sealed vnto vs by the lauer of newe birth and renewing of the holy Ghoste which he hath poured richly vpon vs by Iesus Christ our sauiour vnto eternall life therefore it followeth that beeing iustified by his grace we might be made heires according to the hope of eternall life Vpon the 2. text Es. 64. I saide the Popish Church is not content to be clothed in the white shining silke which is the iustification of Saintes made white in the bloud of the lambe but with the filthy ragges of mannes righteousnesse Bristowe asketh where I learned to call the good workes done in the Church the filthy ragges of mans righteousnesse Verily euen of Esaie who speaketh in the person of the Church All we are as an vncleane person and all our righteousnesse as filthy ragges For although God accept our workes that are done in faith and pardon their imperfection yet when they are obtruded vnto him to iustifie vs he abhorreth them as in the Pharisee Luke 18. That the iustifications of the Saintes Apoc. 19. are good workes Bristowe would haue it appeare by conference of 1. Iohn 3. He that worketh iustice is iust where he reasoneth of the effectes of a iust man not of the cause No flesh is iust by workes of the law but by faith by which God maketh iust euen the vngodly man But how much better conference is it to know what the white 〈◊〉 meaneth which is the iustification of Saintes to compare it with other places of the same prophecie as Apoc. 7. where it is shewed howe the stoles of the faithful are made white with the bloud of the lambe and with the place of Saint Paule shewing how the Church is made white and without spotte and wrinckle by the death of Christ Ephe. 5. Touching freewill I saide we beleeue that man after his fall hath not free will no not aptnesse of will to thinke any thing that is good 2. Cor. 3. Bristow translateth the worde we are not sufficient but the text is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We are not apte to thinke any thing of our selues as of our selues but our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aptnes is of God To this Bristowe replyeth that naturall free will is not taken from vs nor naturall aptnes of will I hope he speaketh like a Philosopher and not like a flat Pelagian But I speake as a Christian of the fredome of mans will vnto good which is none but bondage vnto euill except he be regenerate and then is his will framed of God in parte to good but not perfectly in this life as regeneration is not perfectly finished before the redemption of our bodies as for freedome opposite to coaction if Bristowe meane that by reteyning of free will I graunt euery mans will to be free from constreint but not from seruilitie vnto sinne Whereof Saint complaineth Rom 7. Moreouer I saide Pur. 35. how should your free will 〈…〉 e mainteined if Gods spirite haue any place that di 〈…〉 ributeth to euerie one according to the good pleasure 〈…〉 f his owne will 1. Cor. 12. Bristowes aunswere is that God can worke his owne will vpon our willes which is 〈…〉 ery true but without working of Gods spirite our will 〈…〉 at h no aptnesse vnto any good thing Againe he saith 〈…〉 hat Saint Paule speaketh of the giftes that are freely gi 〈…〉 en and not of them that make a man acceptable as 〈…〉 hough there were any gifts which are not freely giuen And it is euident that he speaketh generally of all working of Gods spirite euen of confessing Iesus to be Christ and not of speciall graces onely So that Bristowes aunswere is nothing to the purpose or matter 〈…〉 n question For I holde that we haue no aptenesse vnto 〈…〉 ny good of our owne freewill but onely of the grace of God Bristow saith I imagine that God is not omni 〈…〉 otent if we haue willes of our owne which I neuer 〈…〉 enied but that we haue willes of out owne vnto good before they be framed therto by Gods spirit is the thing 〈◊〉 denye About good workes in speciall namely prayer to Saintes 〈…〉 astinge merites Concerning inuocation of Saints I saide Purg. 451. wee call not vpon Saints because we beleeue not in theÌ„ for how should wee call vpon them in whom wee beleue not Rom. 10. To this reseruing a pretended contradiction to the proper place he saith first that Saint Paule did often inuocate call vppon the faithfull beseching them to pray for him which is a toye to mocke with an Ape for Saint Paule did not inuocate or pray to them as vnto them that knewe his hearte and could helpe his greefe but onely of charitie desireth their prayers Secondly he asketh where is any Scripture that we must beleeue in God onely Forsooth amongst many this shal suffice which is written in Ieremie Cap. 17. Cursed is the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme and his heart departeth from the Lord. But that it is lawfull to bêleue in Saints also Bristowe quoteth Exod. 14. where it is said the people beleeued God and Moses his seruant as though there were no difference betweene giuing credite to Gods Prophets and beleeuing in them which is to put our trust in them The like I saie to the seconde place quoted 2. Par. 20. where Iosaphat promiseth all things prosperous to the people if they giue credite to Gods Prophets Credite Prophetis eius But forlaking his vulgar authentical translation he prouoketh vs to the Hebrue belyke because of the preposition beth which is a miserable shift Seing the Hebrue phrase is well knowen to differ from the Latine and English phrase and especially from the sense of beleuing that is trusting in God which is peculiar to him and ought not to be in any creature which is not God He quoteth also Philemon whose loue faith the Apostle commendeth towardes the Lorde Iesu and towards all his Saints where euerie wise man seeth that faith is referred to Christ and loue to the Saints But the scripture reacheth him to beleeue he saith in Christ according to his humanity and namely in his blood Iohn 14. Rom. 3. He will proue an Arian or a Nestorian shortly The place of Iohn proueth the diuinity of Christ because he is
I aunswere the argument is not of the onely naming of two but of the whole argument of the Apostle which is to proue that â—he fathers in participation of the sacramentes were equall with vs which were not sufficiently proued if hauing named onely two there were other fiue wherein wee are superior to them So that the naming of two is in this place the excluding of all other except those two Nowe let vs discusse Bristowes reasons for the number of Sacraments to be seuen Wee read of the other fiue in other places Where I pray you Of Confirmation Iohn the 7. You reade more then I can finde there named or signified except you meane of the increase of Gods spirite in more excellent and euident graces which the faithfull shoulde receiue after the resurrection and ascension of Christe which differeth farre from confirmation of children by imposition of handes Of Penance you read Iohn 20. Of power giuen to the Apostles to remit and reteine sinnes I reade but of auricular confession and satisfaction I reade not Of extreme vnction you reade Iac. 5 of annoynting the sicke with oyle which by a speciall gift recouered health of body as well as remission of sinnes at the prayer of the faithfull I reade but of anealing men desperatly sicke which hath no hope of bodily recouerie I reade not Of orders you reade Math. 26. but I reade nothing at all although I reade that the Apostles were commaunded to continue the celebration of his supper instituted by him which were before ministers of his sacramentes and preachers of his worde but of Bennet and Collet coniurer subdeacon or masse priest I reade not in all the Scripture nor of Deacon in that Chapter Of Matrimonie both yet and I reade Math. 19 but not instituted at that time by Christ but long before in Paradise and is no more a sacrament of the newe testament then the raynebowe which yet with the couenant thereof remaineth in vse among Christians But you confesse you reade not in those places that they are sacramentes no more doe you reade 1. Cor. 10. that baptisme or the Lordes supper are sacraments or any where else This is a stale quarrell of the name of sacramentes which is not founde in Scripture although the thing signified by the name that is the seales of Gods promises and the name of signe of Gods couenants be often founde But your laste refuge is that the Apostle speaketh onely of the firste entrance into Christianitie which in antiquitie was by baptisme confirmation the complement of baptisme and the Euchariste and therefore speaketh not of the rest Beside that this fantasie is manifestly contrarie to the Apostles purpose which was to shewe that the externall sacramentes of Gods grace without a godly life woulde not serue to assure vs that God was pleased withvs it is cleare that the Corinthians among whome Saint Paul so long had preached coulde not bee without all other sacraments if any other were They had children to bee confirmed they themselues were married elders were to bee ordered offenders by penaunce were to bee reconciled manie were sicke and some were fallen a sleepe to bee anealed And Saincte Paule saith expressely they were behinde in no grace or gifte of Gods spirite 1. Corinth 1. Wherefore that they were younge nouices newely entred the barres and not knightes exercised in battell it is a dreame of Bristowes drowsiâ— heade and no trueth to bee verified of the Corinthians Secondly I say of the sacramentes in generall that they giue not grace ex opere operato of the worke wrought but after the faith of the receiuer and according to the election of Go◠〈◊〉 Corin. 10. Againe howe should the sacrament giue grace of the worke wrought if faith were requisite in them that receiue them This argument saith Bristowe holdeth aswell against the working of Christs passion Why sir the passioÌ„ of Christ giueth not grace but to the faithfull and electe of God But faith you say is no work nor instrumeÌ„t but only a dispofition as drynesse in wodde that the fire worketh vppon I will not enter into any philosophicall disputation with you whether it bee drinesse or moysture in the wodde that the fire worketh vpon perhaps you thinke that water is moyster then ayre which error if you had no more cannot make you an heretike But I meruaile what cause you will make faith seing you exclude it from efficients except you make it a matter for the sacraments to worke vpon or else I know not what you meane by that your disposition lyke drienesse in woode which in deede is the thinne ayer more apte to receiue inflammations then the thicke water but perhaps you make it onely a potentia like materia prima for you adde that by our indisposition wee doe not put obicem But you hold that the sacraments giue grace of the work wrought without the good motion of the vser onely so hee doe no part obicem that is so he doe not withstand the working as if a man be baptised sleeping and thinking nothing of it Neuerthelesse seing the scripture often affirmeth that God worketh in vs by faith faith must needes bee an instrumentall efficient when you haue saide all that you can except you will teach vs newe gramer and Lògike You confesse the scripture sayth that by beleeuing and other good actions wee worke our owne saluation Phil. 2. as by way of meriting but it saith not that we worke the effect of any sacrament neither doe I say that wee worke the effecte of any sacrament but that God worketh in vs according to faith which he giueth vs and his election You say further that the scripture teacheth that the passion of Christ giueth to our deedes vertue to merite where is that scripture written for vntill you shewe me where it is written I will say still to you as I saide to Allen the Church of Christ abhorreth that blasphemie beleeuing stedfastly that we are iustified freely by his grace through the redemptioÌ„ of Christ Iesus without respect of our works Rom. 3. 4. But yet Bristowe will make men beleeue that I shew manifolde ignorance where I say Purg. 35. The meane on Gods behalfe by which we are made partakers of the fruites of Christes passion and so graffed into his bodie is his holy spirite of promise which is the earnest and assuring of our inheritaunce who worketh in vs faith as the onely meane by which the righteousnesse of Christ is applyed vnto vs Ephe. 1. And as for the sacramentes which you seeme to make the only conduites of Gods mercie we are taught in the holy scriptures that they are the seales of Gods promises giuen for the confirmation of our faith as was circumcision to Abraham when he was iustified before through faith Rom. 4. Bristowes eyes being daseled at the cleere light of this trueth turneth his heade away from the matter and wrangleth against diuerse points of Caluinisme as hee saith but in deede of
qui matrimonis contraxerunt sperni debere dicunt They saie that Elders or Priests which haue ioyned them selues in matrimony ought to be despised Therefore these catholique Bishops thought those Priests good ones which did ioyne them selues in matrimony so they made their Canon Si quis discernit Presbyterum coniugatum c. If any man make difference of a married Priest as though by occasion of his marriage he ought not to offer and doth therfore absteine from his oblation let him be accursed Cap. 4. Of Deacons also the Ancyrane councell decreeth Cap. 10. Diaconi quicunque c. Whosoeuer be ordeyned Deacons if at the same time when they were ordeined they protested saying that they would be ioyned in marriage because they could not so continue if afterwarde they haue married wiues let them remaine in the ministerie because the Bishop hath giuen them licence But so many as haue helde their peace and taken imposition of handes professing continencie and afterwarde be ioyned in marriage ought to ceasse from the ministerie Finally the Decree of Pope Stephanus is cited Dist 31. Aliter se by Gratian and Iuo lib 4. allowing the tradition of the orientall Churches for marriage of theyr Church ministers Aliter se Orientalium c. The tradition of the Easterne Churches hath it otherwise and otherwise is the tradition of this holy Church of Rome For the Priests Deacons and Subdeacons of their Churches are coupled in marriage but none of the Priestes of this Church from the Subdeacon vnto the Bishoppe hath licence to enter into mariage It were hard if there were neuer a good one among all the Cleargie of the East Churches since the Apostles time which haue ben married and yet are To conclude I trust it is apparant to the indifferent reader that such texts of Scripture as I alledged in those two bookes which Bristow vndertaketh in this confuse manner to confute were rightly applyed and without all violence or wresting doe proue sufficiently that for which they were called to witnesse And as for the popish conference of Scriptures wherof Bristowe once againe with great lothsomnesse doeth bragge how sound it is you may perceiue by this example taste giuen by him in this Chapter Wherefore I maruell much what learned ministers of our church these were whom Bristow affirmeth being in number more then a dozen and diuerse of no vulgar wittes by their onely hearing of your conference of scriptures to haue become papists By like some vagabonde irregular and vnhonest persons being depriued of their ministerie for their vngodly behauiour haue sought fauour among them by reuolting or at least counterfaiting to be reuolted to papistrie when they be of no religion commended by Bristow for their wittes but neither for their honestie nor learning CAP. IX To defende that the doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestants in no point All the doctors sayings that he alledgeth are examined and answered The first part of his doctors generally his challenging words I confesse not the doctors to be yours in very manye points nor simply in fewe pointes nor all in any point of controuersie but graunting that for a fewe errours which you haue common with them in which you also farre exceede them as in prayers for the dead prayers to saintes some superstitious or superfluous ceremonies I affirme that in the greatest and chiefest pointes of controuersie they are either all with vs or not one against vs. 2 A generall answere to his challenge declaring that 〈◊〉 neede not to answere his doctors particularly His first reason is because I sayde wee stande for authoritie onely to the iudgement of the holy scriptures which scriptures in the chapter going before he hath satisfied But how he hath satisfied them let the indifferent readers iudge And seeing the Papistes offer to stād to their iudgement in all things and wee refuse them not as witnesses vnto the truth in most things he is not discharged in reason of answering my doctors His second reason is for that I do answere all mine own doctors for him if it be wel considered what is your consideration In that I confesse them to haue helde with you the very same points for which wee must bee condemned no remedie as differing from the doctors in the greatest pointes What are those I pray you Bristowe answereth For why doeth he saye that we are against the honor of God against the offices of Christ but because wee holde inuocation of saints and worshipping of their reliques yes sir for other more grosse idolatrie and defacing of the kingdome priesthod and propheticall office of Christe and for holding these two pointes more absurdly and grossely then any of the doctors did Againe why doth he say that we are against the authoritie of Gods worde but because we hold with traditions as the doctors did I aunswere the doctors held with no traditions that were proued to be against the written worde of God they made not the decrees of Councels and Popes of equall autoritie with the worde of God as you do But of one of the greatest pointes he repeateth my wordes in which I say expressely I confesse with M. Allen that the old writers not only knewe but also haue expressed the value of our redemption by Christ in such wordes as it is not possible that the Popish satisfaction can stande with them And yet on the other side saith Bristowe see what followeth immediatly Against the value of which redemption if they haue vttered any thing by the worde of satisfaction or any thing else we may lawfully reiect their authoritie not onely though they be doctors of the church but also if they were angels from heauen But what I pray you concludeth Bristowe of these two sayings His wordes followe immediatly So that nowe we no more neede to defende against him that wee are not contrarie to the doctors then that the doctors are not contrary to them selues As though it were impossible for men to be contrarie to themselues And yet I say no more of them then of the angels that they are contrary to the trueth in this point but that if they were wee might reiect them as lawfully as the angels if they brought another gospell Last of all he sayth Wee neede not defend that we are contrarie to our selues in the same For in what wordes the doctors speake thereof the same do wee Neither is the antecedent true nor if it were doth the argument followe For you will not saye as the olde writers doe that through the redemption of Christ a man is iustified before God by faith onely without respect of his workes or merites And where you vse the doctors wordes you either vse them in a contrary sense or else elude them with additions distinctions neither grounded on the Scriptures nor on the olde doctors but inuented out of your owne
found in them 1. Tim. 3. Now commeth Bristowe to answere such things as I obiect out of Augustine against vnwritten traditions which he digesteth into three sorts The first are quotations of 11. or 12. places in which he preferreth the autority of the canonicall Scripture before all writinges of Catholike Doctours of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions But this Bristow denieth to be the question but whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie I aunswere those places proue that nothing is of infallible veritie but the scriptures therfore they proue that they only are of irrefragable authoritie The second sorte of places are about this question who hath the true Church Of which question I affirme that S. Augustine would haue the Church sought only in the Scriptures And heâ—e he biddeth me reade his first demande likewise I wil send him to mine answer vnto the same At length he confesseth that Augustine is content in that question to set aside all other authorities to trie it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer sayeth Neither doe we say it or refuse any authoritie that is agreeable to the Scriptures And as that one question which was betweene S. Augustine and the Donatistes was determinable by the onely authorititie of Scriptures so are all questions that are betweene the Church of all times and all heretikes The Donatistes helde that the Church was perished out of all partes of the world except Affrica as the Papistes holde that it is perished out of all partes except a peece of Europa Saint Augustine by the Scripture proueth the continuance in the Churche dispersed ouer all the worlde and that we holde against the Romishe synagogue of Popish Donatistes who haue separated them selues from the Catholike Church into the function of an Italian Priest as the other did of an Affrican But Bristowe sayeth I am as blinde as a beetle in saying that the Papistes did separate themselues from our Church seeing it is certain that Luther did separate him selfe from the Popish Church The like might be said to all them that forsoke the fellowship of any heretikes to come vnto the Churche of God But Bristow is as madde as a marche Hare that bragging so much of the title of the church he is driuen to trie it only by the Scriptures as Augustine calleth vpon the Donatists The other places which I aledge out of Aug saith Bristowe are about al questions with heretikes whatsoeuer As that he would oppresse the Arrian Maximinus with the authoritie of the Nicene councel Lib. 3. Cap. 14. Bristowe asketh whether he might not presse them with the authoritie thereof as he doth the Donatistes But aske Augustine him selfe who saith he ought not in that case that he charged the Donatistes which it was by their own concession because they allowed it But he saith in the same place the Fathers of the Nicene councell ratified Homousion that is equalitie of the sonne with the father Veritatis autoritate autoritatis veritate by authoritie of trueth and by trueth of authoritie This truth of authoritie Bristowe will haue to be the authoritie of the Nicene councell as though the councel could not erre but then what needed the authoritie of trueth In deede where the councel decreeth with the trueth it is the trueth of authoritie for other authoritie a Councell hath not but of trueth to declare trueth and not to make trueth for if it declare errour as the councell of Arimine did it hath no trueth of authoritie because it hath no authoritie of trueth Moreouer Bristow saith I translate falsely these wordes Nec ego huius autoritate nec tuillius detineris Neither am I bounden to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other Whereas it should be Neither doth the authoritie of the one hold me nor of the other holde thee There is greate difference betweene beeing holden and beeing bound To the bare authoritie of the councell of Nice Maximinus was no more bounden then Augustine to the bare authoritie of Ariminum It was the trueth of Nice that the Arrian was bounde vnto and the falshod of Ariminum that Augustine was not holden with vs. But after the example of Augustine saith Bristowe we will not alledge the councell of Trent as our proper witnesses to our side but the authoritie of Scriptures common to both Witnesse hereof Bristowes motiues where he would ouerthrowe vs by the bare name of Catholike and heretike c. Againe he saith that we make challenge of 600. yeares also And what then Witnesses of trueth we take wheresoeuer they be but authoritie of trueth onely out of the Scriptures Where I said that Augustine setting all other persuasions aside prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith and doctrine of the Churche Bristowe answereth Howe true that is appeareth in the same booke De Vnitate Eccle. which you cite For when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he saith expressely that to be inough also for all other questions Sufficit nobis It is inough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed too by most manifest testimonies of the holy and Canonicall Scriptures De Vnit Eccle. Cap. 19. Doth he say expressely it is inough for all other questions I must needes say expressely you lie For the onely question being how the Donatistes should be receiued if they would come to the Catholike Church as though they were the true Church because baptisme giuen among them was not repeated in the Catholike Church Augustine after much concertation saith Quapropter cum dicatur haereticis c. Wherfore seeing it is said to the heretiks Rightousnes is wanting to you which without charitie and the bonde of peace no man can haue seeing they theÌ„selues confesse that many haue baptisme which haue not righteousnesse and if they would not confesse it the holy Scripture conuinceth them I maruell howe they thinke when we wil not baptise them again hauing not their own but the baptisme of Christ that we do so as though we iudged nothing to be now wanting to theÌ„ that because baptisme is not giuen to them in the Catholike Church which they are founde to haue already they thinke they receiue nothing there where they receiue that without which that which they haue auaileth them to their destruction and not to their saluation Which if they wil not vnderstand it is sufficient for vs that we holde that Church which is shewed forth by most manifest testimonies of the holy and canonical Scriptures Where he speaketh not of the authortie of the Church to determine questions but sheweth it is sufficieÌ„t to haue proued by the Scriptures that they are the true Church although the Heretikes will not vnderstand how baptisme being ministred out of the Church hath not effect but in the true Church for if it be manifest by the Scriptures that Augustine holdeth the true Church that last question
quietly coÌ„fesse that Augustine brought much superstitioÌ„ into this Island yet not the whole substance of Poperie but the principal most necessarie grounds of Christianitie where I affirmed that in many things the faith religion of the old Saxons was contrarie to that the Papists now do hold as by diuers monuments of antiquitie may be proued Bristowe with a double negatiue would haue it seeme impossible Because in S. Bedes storie and in all his workes c. we find nothing against the Pope nor against any one point of his doctrine What I haue found in S. Bedes storie and other monuments of the Saxons religion I haue set forth in confutation of Stapletons Fortresse As for that printed Saxon Homily which is against real presence transubstantiation which Bristowe saith was so soone so diligently called in againe it is abroad in the hands of many neuer called in that euer I heard of but hath since the first setting forth of it bene printed three or foure times in Maister Foxes booke of Actes and Monumentes In the tenth and twelfth Demands of Miracles and visions where I had cited the admonition of the Apostle 2. Thessalon 2. that the comming of Antichrist should be in all lying signes and wonders Bristowe asketh me what Scripture telleth me that after the reuelation of Antichrist there shall be none but feigned miracles Wheras I inferred no such thing vpon the text but shew euen that which he blameth me not to haue shewed howe to knowe seigned miracles from vnfeigned namely by the doctrine which they are saide to confirme according to the Scripture Deut. 13. Where I saide that Augustine De vnit eccle cap. 16. will allowe no miracles and visions for sufficient proofes without the authoritie of Scriptures Bristowe saith I doe shamefully abuse my reader for he saith expressely What so euer such thinges are done in the Catholike Church therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church Yea sir but it followeth that the Church is not shewed to be Catholike because such things are done but as he saith there and else where onely by the Scriptures But Bristowe will haue me allowe all the miracles that Saint Augustine speaketh of because they were done in the Catholike Church As though Saint Augustine made that the sufficient cause to allowe any thing that was done or saide to be done without ioyning that they were done to confirme the Catholike faith Cyprians miracles could not iustifie his error In the Popish Church the sectes of Dominicanes and Franciscanes in their dissention about the Conception of the virgin Marie boasted both of their miracles yet Bristowe will not I weene allowe both their miracles except he will allowe both their opinions which were contradictorie Againe many things are feigned euen in the Catholike Church by peruerse zeale to confirme truth as the historie of Paule and Tecla confessed by a Priest of Asia Tert. de bapt Neither wil Bristow I thinke defend that al the miracles contained in the Alcoran of Frances Vitas patrum Legendâ—â—â—rea dormi securè sermones discipuli promptuariuÌ„ exemplorum Festiual and liues of so manie Saints as are written be all true and none feigned although they all serue to proue Poperie Wherefore it may be that euen some of those miracles that S. Augustine doth report might of emulation and vnordered zeale be feigned by some Catholikes to winne credite to the Church against heretikes That Luther and Caluine whome he affirmeth not able to heale a lame horse attempted wonders it is as impudent a lie and grosse forgerie as that Liâ—danus telleth that Luther was begotten of the diuell And yet there be diuers horseleaches among the Protestants that haue healed more lame horses then euer S. Loy did either when he liued or since he was worshipped of the Papistes as an excellent horseleach Passing ouer 5. Demandes which he doth only name In the 18. of destroying idolatrie he saith that to all that he said I say nothing but like a cuckowe You haue not destroied idolatrie but set vp idolatrie not waying saith Bristowe that I tell him according to the Prophets that we haue throughly conuerted all nations from idolatrie that we haue made them forget also the names of their idols In deede that which Bristow telleth me is of great weight and therefore I am belike to blame to wey it no more but as bare wordes without matter and winde without reason or authoritie Otherwise I thinke I haue proued that the Papistes haue conuerted fewe nations from Paganisme and them whome they haue turned they haue rather chaunged the idols then taken away the idolatrie or rather the verie names then the idols themselues seeing there was neuer an idol almost among the Gentiles but they retaine the idolatrie vnder the name of one Saint or other They had Castor and Pollux you haue Loy and George they had Februa or Febris you haue Fiacre that which Iuno Lucina was to their women the virgine Marie is to yours c. In the 19 Demaund of Kings and Emperors Bristowe saith that although I chalenge the Kings of the first 600 yeares to be of our religion yet I bring no proofe at all as though the proofe of the doctrine of saluation receiued in that time which we hold is no proofe at all But I 〈◊〉 not aunswered so much as that Allen alledgeth â—â—we Constantinus receiued the sentence of the priestes 〈◊〉 at Nice as pronounced of God What neede any 〈…〉 were to this we honour it likewise But Bristowe such I confesse there was praier for his soule according 〈◊〉 the error of his time And he addeth that there was 〈◊〉 for his soule with intercession of the Apostles in 〈…〉 ose honour it was offered at their reliques and their â—â—mple and all by procurement of Constantinus him selfe Euseb. in vita Const. lib 4. cap. 58. 59. 60. 66. 71. First cap. 58. there is nothing but that Constantine builded a Church which should be called the memorie of the Apostles Cap. 59. followeth the description of the same Church and his intent that the memorie of Christes Apostles by that sumptuous building should be continued alwaies among all nations Cap. 60. his purpose is shewed that he being buried there might be made partaker of the praiers that should be there made in the honour of the Apostles meaning the praiers made to God which manie moued by deuotion of that glorious memorie of the Apostles should make Cap. 66. is nothing but a description of a magnificent funerall pompe prepared Cap. 71. are those praiers which the people made for his soule that I spake of and beside that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. The tombe of the thrise happie soule beautified with the name of the Apostles and adioined to the people of God and made worthie of the diuine ceremonies and mysticall liturgie or seruice and inioining the communion of holie praiers But of sacrifice for his soule with the
sacrifice is made celebrated with prayer as Hierom saith by the pâ—iestes prayers What are then the wordes of consecration And because euen the olde howse of those leuiticall bloode sacrifices also was Domus orationis the howse of prayer Therefore the masse is nothing but a prayer So is Tertullian answered Who would not wonder at this clearkely answere For I thinke no man can vnderstand of what reason it holdeth The last doctor is Irenaeus saying of the sacrifice of the Church Libr. 4. cap. 34. The conscience of him that doth offer being pure doth sanctifie the sacrifice and causeth GOD to accepte it as comming from a frende The sacrifices doe not sanctifie a man for GOD hath no neede of sacrifice c. This cannot be verified of the naturall body of Christ. Bristowe answereth they say the same Yea doe Bristowe Is the sacrifice you offer the bodie of Christ Yea doth the conscience of the offerer sanctifie the body of Christ Out vpon thee filthie blasphemous dogge if thou dare affirme it But Bristow asketh Wether any heretike canpleade by their verdit that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread and wine As though that were the question Yea or also the body it selfe and bloode of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall communion no lesse then we doe in the masse What newes is this doe all Priestes in the Caluinicall communion offer the body and blood of Christ as much as you papistes doe in your masse I thinke euen the same for none that communicate with Caluine doe at all offer Christes naturall body and blood and no more doe you although arrogantly and blasphemously you presume to doe it In the 25. demaund of Monkes where I say the olde Monkes were nothing but Colledges of studentes Bristowe saith in ouerthtowing of Popish Abbeis in which was nothing almost but ignorance and filthmes and Idolatrie we haue spoyled the Church of God of great vtilitie But he saith further they were votaries and so they be not in colledges of studentes their vowes were not such that could make them other then students they vowed to serue God vprightly and his Church when they were called and they in Colledges which hauing once promised the same forsake this holie purpose haue smale commendation among studentes I know in time superstition preuailed and that which first was free at last became coact and that which was of conueencie was thought of necessitie euen as true religion declined and in the Romish Church at length degenerated into Idolatrie and superstition In the 27. demaund of Councels where I proue that Councels may erre First by the prayer vsually saide after the ende of euerie generall Councel Bristowe saith the prayer is not in respect for any false decrees or beleeuings of their whole bodies but by reason of certaine ignorances and frailties of their members when in the prayer they expresly declare their feare lest ignorance hath driuen them into error which can be vnderstoode of none other common errors of this life but of their error in decrees seeing the prayer is appropriate vnto the Councel And that the wordes going before after do manifestly declare Te in nostris principiis c. Thee in our beginninges we require an assister thee also in this ende of our iudgementes or decrees we desire to be present a pardoner for our faultes that is that thou wouldest spare our ignorance and pardon our error that to our perfect desires thou wouldest graunt a perfect efficacie of worke And because our conscience accusing vs we doe fainte for feare lest either ignorance hath drawne vs into errror or rashnes of will perhaps hath driuen vs to decline from iustice therfore we desire thee we pray thee that if we haue drawne vnto vs any offence in the celebritie of this Councell thou wouldest vouchsafe to pardon it and to make it remissible Who would pray thus in the name of the whole Councell which he thought could not possiblie fall into any error That I alledge out of Augustine de baptismo contra Donat. libr. 2. cap. 3. That generall Councells are and may be reformed the later by the former Bristowe vnderstandeth of Councells not confirmed by the Pope which may be reformed euen by the see Apostolike alone That was a poynt more then S. Augustine sawe But how can they be called Plenaria concilia full and whole Councells where lacketh any necessarie confirmation This is a shamelesse eluding of the Doctors sayinges For first Augustine includeth all catholike Bishops in possibility of erring in doctrine not excepting the Bishop of Rome then prouinciall last of all generall Councells onely the scripture cannot be amended as that which hath no error in it Where I saide the Councells are receiued because they decreed truly according to the worde of God and not the truth receiued because it was decreed in Councells Bristowe saith I might as well say the scriptures are receiued because they are written truly and not the truth receiued because it is written in the scriptures But I say the comparison is not like For truth is not so necessarilie bound vnto generall Councells as it is to the holy scriptures and therefore both the scriptures are receiued because they are written truly and the truth is receiued because it is knowne by the scriptures It followeth not so of councells that what soeuer they haue decreed is truth although the Bishop of Rome haue confirmed them Leo Bishop of Rome confirmed the 6. of Constantinople which condemned Pope Honorius his predecessor for an heretike whom you hould cannot erre in doctrine which is an argument sufficient to strangle any papist in either of these two blasphemous assertions The pope caÌ„not erre The generall Councel confirmed by the Pope cannot erre In the 28. demaunde of the See Apostolike where I bring the example of Victor Bishop of Rome withstoode by Irenaeus and Polycrates when he went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches in excommunicating all the Churches in Asia and yet Irenaeus and Polycrates with other so reprouing the Bishop of Rome were not heretikes Bristow babling about the cause of Victors displeasure which is no matter in question saith he vsurped no authoritie nor was so charged but that his censure did seeme to harpe to S. Irenaeus as if the Pope would nowe excommunicate all them that would not receiue the Councel of Trent it would seeme likewise to many who confesse he hath authoritie ouer al. But none of these Bishops that withstoode Victor confessed that he had authoritie ouer them or that he could not erre But contrariwise Polycrates chargeth him with vsurpation where he saith he will not be troubled with his terrifying censure seeing he followeth as he thought the scripture and ancient traditions of the Apostles Likewise Eusebius saith that Victor was sharply reproued of many and namely of Irenaeus in the behalfe of all the brethren of Fraunce whom he gouerned Yea he saith expresly that Victor
determined against it In the 36. Demand of Owners or Keepers of the scriptures where I say the primitiue Church which commendeth the scripture vnto vs doth not condemne Luther or his doctrine for heresie Bristowe saith it doth in Aerius Iouinian Vigilantius c. as though there were no primitiue Church before these men which commended the scripture vnto vs and yet knewe neither praier for for the deade nor superstition of reliques or any thing that Luther held with those men Where I taxe the blindnesse of the Popish Church not discerning the scriptures Canonicall from Apocryphall Bristowe bringeth in a saying of Augustine shewing that it is of necessitie for him to beleeue the Actes of the Apostles if he beleeue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth both the scriptures alike vnto him But I haue shewed that the Maccabees Ecclesiasticus Iudeth c. are not commended to vs by the Catholike or vniuersall authoritie of the Church After other contentious pointes stoutly affirmed or denied without proofe he commeth to charge me with a substantiall lie because I say our Church which is the onely true Catholike Church hath alwaies had right and possion of the worde of God as appeareth by this that our Church beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them If this be not a notable plea Bristowe reporteth him to our Lawiers But I report me to al Logicians whether it be not a good argument by prouing vs to be the true Church to claime continuall right and possession of the scriptures as for the noueltie of Luther our cōgregatiō is a weake plea to dispossesse vs of the Church when y◠antiquitie of our faith and religion proueth vs to be of the oldest Church and therefore the only true Church Where Allen made his offer that if I could shewe any Church that hath safely kept the scriptures sauing the Popish Church he would recant I shew him the Greeke and Easterne Churches which are not Popish whervpon he is bound by his offer to recant yet Bristowe without all shame saith Euery article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the Church but some only that you be not the Church True it is that neither euery one nor any of them all are sufficient to proue that you are the Church and not we But that Allen meant they were sufficient it is manifest by that he promiseth to recant if any of them can be proued to agree to any other than to the Popish Church In the eight and thirtie Demand of old Heresies where I shewed that many of the Popish ceremonies were first instituted by heretikes aunswering directly to Allens challenge that offered to recant if any man could proue that any Church but theirs had instituted all their ceremonies Bristowe saith they are such matters as agree none otherwise to them then to those whome I dare not condemne c. Which if it were so yet doth it not shewe but that I haue aunswered Allens challenge and therefore do according to his promise claime his recantation Of the Messalians or Martyrians I saide they learned first to shaue their beardes and let their lockes growe long Bristowe out of Epiphanius saith they did let their haire growe long like women The Popish Priestes doe not so but round them Yet can he not proue out of Epiphanius that the Messalians did not keepe their haire in order by rounding or otherwise Further he saith some Protestants doe so I aunswere none of ceremonie doth so Thirdly Priestes in Italie and Spaine doe poll their heads and keepe their beardes I answere they keepe the text of the decree and you the glosse which saith statuimus id est abrogamus c. We decree that is we abrogate that Clearkes neither weare long haire nor shaue their beardes Last of all he saith I haue no great matters to charge them with when I lay their haires to their charge My reply is that my charge goeth no further then Allens challenge which vrgeth me to shewe any other to haue first instituted any one ceremonie in Poperie but the Popes only Catholike Church And so I say to the superstitious masking garmentes instituted by the Pharisees although the auncient Church about foure or fiue hundreth yeares after Christe receiued such robes in vse Also the daily vse of Popish holie water to put men in minde of baptisme had an elder institution of the Hemerobaptistae that were baptized or washed euerie day Here Bristowe with a verie stale iest acknowledgeth their fault and layeth it vpon Saint Paule who hath deceiued them Rom. 6. where baptisme is in deede remembred but holie water I trowe is not there O then it is 1. Tim 4. where Saint Paule was to blame saith Bristowe to tell vs that the creatures of God are sanctified by the worde of God and by prayer Wonderfull Diuinitie that can bring Popish holie water to so holie a beginning No maruell if we be blinde which thinke the Apostle speaketh there of the lawfull vse of meates forbidden by the Pope and of all other of Gods creatures being sanctified by the worde of God which giue vs the vse so by praier that we may vse them well But specially saith Bristowe he was to blame for saying The holy Ghost doth helpe our weaknesse praying for vs with groanes vnspeakeable how so euer blinde heretikes thinke he will doe nothing by water for praier In deede when the scriptures be so plaine for holie water it is wonder that any be so blinde they can see it Of the Ossenes I saide they tooke their hallowing of water salt oyle breade c. and vse to sweare by them Bristow asketh if I be an Anabaptist that will condemne all swearing or swearing by creatures I aunswere I will not condemne all swearing but this customable swearing of Papistes by this bread by this salt c. and as for swearing by creatures I am of the same iudgement that our Sauior Christ is Matth. 5. 34. But Papistes sweare not by them as the Ossenes did what then the controuersie is not therein but of their resemblance with the Ossenes in some part Elxai the father of the Ossenes taught his scholers a praier in a straunge tongue whose interpretation they might not seeke whome the Papistes followe in teaching the people to pray in a tongue vnknowne and will not if they may chose let them knowe the interpretation Bristowe aunswereth that Epiphanius saith his praier was nothing at all when it was interpreted Is it like Epiphanius would say so Howe could it be interpreted if it had no signification Epiphanius in deed sheweth it was a vaine thing whereof he made so great a mysterie and your ignorant people of the great mysteries of the Lordes prayer the Salutation and the creede make vaine and ridiculous matters while they can scarce pronounce their wordes together truly The Marcosians in baptisme vsed for greater admiration certaine Hebrewe wordes so doe the papistes Bristowe asketh whie S.
Marke in his greeke writing vseth that word Eppheta I answere more liuely to expresse the miracle of Christ yet doth he it not without interpretation Likewise Saint Iohn in his Apocalipse vseth Amen and Alleluia wordes whose signification was as commonly knowne to all Christians as their owne mother language What is this to iustifie the vse of that word in baptisme which neither Marke nor Iohn speake of But it was vsed in the time of Ambrose So were other needlesse matters yet was it vsed to them that vnderstoode the whole office or seruice of baptisme in latine Augustine saith it was not lawfull for any Barbarian or Latine man to translate the words Amen Alleluia which al nations do singe in the Psalmes into his owne language For thus he coteth De doct Chri. lib. 2. cap. 11. inter Epist. 174. but in neither of theÌ„ do I finde any such matter Certaine it is that Augustine doth giue the signification of them both in latine Of the Marcionistes I said they learned to giue womeÌ„ leaue to baptise Bristow saith we doe our selues therein by order of our booke as much as they doe but he is deceiued there is no permissioÌ„ in the booke for women to baptise Touching the necessitie of baptisme we haue spoken before cap. 6. Finallie I saide the Papistes are Pelagians for holding free will and merites of workes as they did not predessination and grace as S. Augustine did Bristow citeth Hierom. Cont. Pela saying that it was the heresie of the Manichees to take away free will So it was in deede to affirme that the wil of man was inforced or constreined But that the will of man is free from the thraldome of sinne and hath power to merite without grace or with grace more easily it was the heresie of the Pelagians as Augustine in whole bookes written against theÌ„ doth declare But August Epist. 46. saith That by the grace of God a wicked man may be made a iust one and so may begin to haue good merites which God shal crown wheÌ„ the world shal be iudged I answere by merites he meaneth workes and not desertes for else how saith he elsewhere in Ps. 101. diuers places beside that God crowneth his giftes and not our merites where he vseth the name of merites for desertes where I saide the papistes colour Pelagianisme with their distinctioÌ„ De congruo condigno Bristow saith we do like hypocrites conceale before the people the distinction of merites before grace and after grace for they hold that a man cannot merite the grace of God De congruo without Gods healpe although they haue no resolute warrant to call the contrarie Pelagianisme or heresie And why haue you no warant for reare you should condeÌ„ne diuers of your cheife pillers the scholemeÌ„ for heretikes which hold contrary to that you hold and yet you all hold that a man may dispose him selfe vnto a certaine aptnes to receiue the grace of God by the power of his free will Where I said God is as much bound to congruitie as to condignitie Bristow saith I immagine that if God do not that which is coÌ„gruous he doth against coÌ„gruitie Now good sir saith he It is coÌ„grue to his mercie to saue the simple that are out of the Church which is not coÌ„gruus to his iustice But good sir I pray you dispute not so of congruine that you oppose Gods mercie to his iustice there is nothing congrue to hismercie which is not coÌ„grue to his iustice for vnto whoÌ„soeuer he wil shew mercie he hath receiued for them satisfaction to his iustice in the person of Christ yet Bristow hath another example for condignitie For God to saue al the world it is condigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because it is condigne to their owne merites By this it may be inferred that God yeeldeth not to the merites of Christ so much as they deserue because the merites of many men doe hinder as though the merites of al men do not deserue daÌ„nation of coÌ„dignitie then what cause is this why God giueth not to Christs merites so much as they are worthie to receiue because many deserue damnation This foolish sophistrie riseth by reasoning from possibilitie of Christes worthynesse to the acte of mens worthynesse But compare acte with acte and God saueth all his elect for the worthynesse of the merites of Christ by his mercie and damneth all the reprobate for the worthinesse of their sinne by his iustice of predestination denied by the papistes as it is defended by S. Augustine Bristow speaketh neuer a word In the 39. demaund which he calleth Inconfessed heretikes onely where I answering to the question of Allen Pur 421. 422. with an other question or demaunde why it was reueiled first to the Arrians in councell that the article of Christes descent into hell was meete to be added to the Creede which was not in anie symbole before Bristowe first surmising as his manner is that which was neuer thought of at last confesseth this article to be added in an Arrian Creede Theodor. Lib 2. cap. 21 affirming that it was before that in the Apostles Creede but thereof he bringeth no proofe nor witnesse The iudgement of the scriptures and not of mens opinions argueth heresies Let the writinges of the Apostles trie whether of vs is departed from the doctrine of the Apostles In the 40. demaunde which he termeth They neuer afore now Where I saide we agree with the most ancient fathers in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith Bristowe saith I confesse his purpose For Vigilantius Iouinianus c. did much more agree with them in such articles yet were not of their church could not be and would not be How proue you that Vigilantius was not of the Church or woulde not be although he dissented from Hierom As for Iouinian although we hold no part of his assertion in manner as he helde yet his error was not so great that he might not be saued with it Fewe of those fathers but had as great errors as that It seemeth you would haue no man to be of the ancient Church except he agree with the ancient fathers in al their errors if it be proued out of the holy scripture that Hierom erred in that wherein he dissented from Vigilantius why is heto be allowed in that error more then in other thinges wherein he and other of those antient fathers erred Where I doubt whether Apostolici in S. Bernardâ— time were slaundered Bristow saith it is a poore and fowle shifte because Bernard himselfe is witnes against them as though it were not possible that Bernard might be deceiued by missâ—information of them that enuied such kinde of men as they were Where I say it is certaine that Panperes de Lugduno were slaundered Bristow saith I proue it not They proue it themselues being now and long since openly knowne to haue continued in their vnitie from the time of
Caluine c. Because I knowe not how Illyricus and such contentious persons as he expoundeth the annointing in Saint Iames but referre them to aunswere for them selues therefore I speake contrary to my selfe where I say they differ not in faith from the Lutherans 41 There is neuer heresie but there is as great doubt of the church as of the matter in question Therefore only the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Ar. 86. Contra The Church is the â—ay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it would serue you both for a sword and a bucklar The church saith it and we are the church Therefore it is true Pur. 367. It seemeth Bristowe is beside himselfe in coyning of contradictions These words The Church is the stay of truth for which he quoteth Pur. 367. are not mine in that place but his owne addition although in other sense I confesse the Church is the stay and piller of truth not that all is true which is alwaies in the Church but that truth can not be preserued on earth by the Church 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth against the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is that their heresie was contrarie to the publique praiers of the church Contra All other persuasions set aside hee prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trie the faith and doctrine of the church namely in beating downe the schisme of the Donaistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason whie he argued against the Donatistes of only Scripture but against the Pelagians of the churches praiers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the church that so praied And therefore when Augustine had to doe with the Donatistes that challenged the church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures Let the readers iudge for I can not imagine where there be should be so much as the shadowe of a contradiction gathered out of these wordes except he meane that he which prouoketh onely to the scriptures may not vse an hundreth argumentes out of them yea or many persuasions beside the scriptures and yet stand onely vpon the auctority of the scriptures 43 We stand for autoritie only to the iudgemeÌ„t of the holy scriptures Pu. 432. Contra The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assuraÌ„ce of Gods spirit for the autoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true church in alages The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of God from the writings of men The primitiue churches testimonie of the word of God we allow and beleeue You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing wel prouide for the credit of your cause the discredit of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure church for the space of a hundreth yeares after Christe or something out of any Authenticall writer which liued within one hundred yeares after the Apostles age Ar. 9. 5. 10. Pur. 364. 331. Ar. 21. 39. 42. The first proposition as in the place quoted is manifest is spoken of questions of doctrine and not of our persuasion of the scriptures to be the word of God The last sentence You should bring c. being patched out of two places of my booke Pur. 364. and 331. are not contradictory to the first proposition for although we stand for auctority onely to iudgement of the holy scriptures yet we are content to giue you this aduantage against vs if you can bring any thing out of those eldest writers for Purgatory or prayer for the dead 44 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. declareth without colour or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the next line I knowe the Papistes will flee to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelinesse and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pur. 362. In rehearsing my wordes he leaueth out fiue lines of my saying betwene the words Couerture and The onely right c. which declare that I speake of the essâ—ntiall order of ministration against Allen which affirmeth oblation of the hoast for the quicke and the dead both generally and particularly and a solemne prayer for all departed in Christ to be necessary parts of the order of ministration of that Sacrament 45 The olde Doctors neuer heard Purgatorie named nor praier for the deade Pur. 438. Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented And long afore that also Montanus had in all points the opinioÌ„ of the Papists c. Here cap 3 pag 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blinde error without a head Pur. 356. My wordes are of the heresie of Purgatory and my meaning of those olde Doctors in comparison of whom Saint Augustine is but a punie being younger almost by 300. yeares in whose time although the name of Purgatory were inueâ—ted yet the heresie was elder in Montanus How prayer for the deade came into the Church it was vncertaine in Chrysostomes time and therefore I say it was a blinde error without a heade 46 In Saint Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Pur. 54. Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time Pur. 161. And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14 saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of praiers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundationlong afore Christes time It were a strange contradiction that could bee picked out of these two allegories laying the foundation and rifely budding seeing the foundation is the beginning of a building and budding is the first towardnesse of fruite As for the pedigree is not to the last generation as Bristow saith layed in Saint Augustines time but from the first auctor howe it was continued vnto Saint Augustines time since which there haue beene many dissents before popish Purgatory were throughly shaped and brought forth 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God exceedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 242. 243. Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men giue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne than that almes which other men giue for them howbeit also such almes are auaileable for the dead he saith Pur. 236. 237. That which Chrysostome speaketh of litle helpe wil not serue Allen to proue that almes shall moue GOD exceedingly to mercy 48 The auncient Doctors did holde the foundation Contra cap. 4 pag. 28. He
Allens supposition that the ful force of Christs death would sup vp al sinne al paine for sinne death temporall and eternall hell purgatorie and all paine c. But what reasons hath Bristow against my saying First my assertion is saith he As though it were not of force to worke any whit more than it worketh in acte as to saue so much as one of them that shal not be saued I say it is of force to worke euen as much as God will but not to worke against the will of God But I speake contrarie to the expresse scripture He is the propitiation for our sinnes and not for our sinnes only but also for the sinnes of the whole world 1. Ioh. 2. If you vnderstand the whole world for euery man in the world then it foloweth that God is reconciled for al men so no man shall be damned But S. Iohn meaneth by his general word al the elect of the world as when he saith The whole world is set on mischiefe he meaneth not euery person but all the reprobate 1. Ioh. 5. And that Christes death is not a propitiation of the sinnes of al the wicked of the world and reprobates it is certaine by that he refuseth to pray for the world that is for the reprobates of the world Iohn 17. But Bristowe vrgeth me with mine owne saying in an other contrarie to this Concerning the sufficiencie of Christes redemption there is nothing that can be spoken so magnifically but that the worthinesse thereof passeth and excelleth it This should haue come in among the contradictions if Bristowe had remembred it But I beseech you sir in commending the sufficiencie of Christes redemption doe I extend the force of his death beyond the limits of his will Are any more redeemed than Christ would The sixt I say that to remit sinnes is proper to his diuinitie That is saith Bristowe as though Christ doth not remit sinnes according to his humanitie I say Christ which is a person consisting of God and man doth remitte sinnes by absolute auctority but that is proper to his diuinity and not to his humanity as for the power which he hath giuen to his ministers to remit sinne is not absolute but to declare remission of sinnes in his name Neither did the people which glorified God for giuing such power to men Matth. 9. acknowledge the doctrine of the Church for the remission of sinnes by the ministery of man but praised God for giuing the gift of healing vnto Christ whom yet as young scholers they acknowledge not to be God but an holy Prophet sent of God And so the other Euangelists report their praising of God to haue beene for that they neuer sawe it so they had seene wonderfull things that day Mark 2. Luk. 5. The 7. he chargeth me to teach a pestilent doctrine of desperation Where I say there be sinnes for which the Church ought not to pray euen of men remaining in this life for which it is not lawfull to pray which by the mercy of God are not pardonable it is false that so long as men are in this worlde they may repent For which he quoteth Pur. 274 127. 128. 135. 283. After he asketh how many such sinnes there are and saith in one place I name two and after more and after concludeth that in some I say that it is vnlawful to pray for any wicked person of what sort so euer his wickednesse be so long as he continueth in his wickednesse yea and it is vnpossible for the wicked but to continue in his wickednesse This is a pestilent slander for I neuer accounted any sinne irremisible but onely the sinne against the holy Ghost for obstinate and willfull apostasie is the sinne against the holy Ghost whereof a fruite is finall contempt of all that preach Christ and of all meanes that Christ hath wrought to bring vs to repentance such was the sinne of Saul and of the obstinate Iewes for whome Samuel and Ieremie are forbidden to pray As for that I should say it is not lawfull to pray for any wicked person c. I neuer thought it but onely for those that sinne against the holy Ghost of whom Saint Iohn saith they sinne vnto death and I say not that any man should pray for that 1. Ioan. 5. Neuerthelesse Bristowe affirmeth that we are worse then the Nouatians when I say That some sinnes neither by the mercy of God are pardonable But where doe I say so he quoteth before Pur 128. And what be my wordes there Verily who so will turne the booke shal reade them thus For by the iustice of God all sinnes are mortall but by his mercy they are all pardonable except that sinne vnto death wherof Iohn speaketh 1. Ioh. 5. Thus am I worse thā a Nouatian for saying the sinne against the holy Ghost shall neuer be pardoned neither in this life nor in the world to come But perhaps Bristowe will cauill that euen that sinne is pardonably by Gods mercy if God would which is not contrary to that I saide For I speake of that which may be Gods eternall will standing according vnto which the Apostle saith it is impossible that they which so offende can be renewed by repentaunce Hebrewes 6. The heresie of the Nouatians as Bristowe affirmeth of the report of Aresius their Bishop was That they who after baptisme fall into that kinde of sinne which the holy scriptures call sinne vnto death ought not to be admitted to receiue the diuine mysteries but to be exhorted to repentaunce and to looke for hope of forgiuenesse not of the Priestes but of God who both can and hath authoritie to forgiue sinnes In which sentence a double error of the Nouatians is included first that they tooke that sinne vnto death wherof Saint Iohn speaketh 1 Iohn 5. to be falling through frailty in time of persecution euen as Bristowe doth the willfull prolapsion and Apostasie that the Apostle speaketh of Heb. 6. Secondly that they thought the sinne vnto death might be remitted of God contrary to the manifest denunciation of our Sauiour Christe Matth. 12. As Bristowe doeth the sinne against the holy Ghoste which is all one and the same But that the Catholique Churche did then by her Priestes forgiue all sinnes without accepting the sinne against the holy Ghost which Bristowe affirmeth out of the confession of Acesius I maruell howe he proueth Yea he is so impudent to say that the Protestantes also doe admit all to their Caluines breade so the blasphemous dogge barketh against the holie Communion whereas we neuer receiue any whome we knowe to be excommunicated and much lesse would we receiue any apostata that is cleane fallen from Christianitie not of weakenesse or ignorance but of malicious contempt or any whome we might knowe to haue sinned that sinne vnto death and to haue blasphemed against the holie Ghost But nowe let vs see what miserable comfort Bristowe will minister against desperation in answering such places
the holie Ghost or else he acknowledgeth him present vnder the formes of breade and wine without distinction of persons and with a blasphemous confusion of the substance of the two natures in Christ. For the figure called the Communication of speaches can not helpe him in this case seeing he wil admit no figure but a most proper speach in these wordes This is my bodie Whereas it is euident to all men that are not obstinately blinde that if Christe had purposed to make the sacrament really and essentially all that him selfe is and would haue declared the same in proper speach he would not haue saide This is my bodie and this is my bloud which is but a part of him and the lowest part of him but he would haue saide take eate this is Iesus Christ or this is al that I am But when he saith this is my body this is my bloud which if it be not a figuratiue speach should be a dead bodie and a senselesse bloud he sheweth manifestly that he commendeth not a meta physicall transmutation of the elements into his naturall flesh and bloud but an heauenly and diuine mysterie teaching vs and assuring vs that God the sonne being ioined with vs in the nature of his humanitie which he hath taken vnto him by the spirituall vertue of his body broken and bloud shed for vs on the crosse doth wonderfully feede vs and nourish vs as it were with meate and drinke vnto eternall saluation both of body and soule If any man think that I referre the words of Sander to the Sacrament which he speaketh of the diuinitie of Christ generally let him reade the whole Epistle and comparing it with the title of salutation which I haue set downe in his owne wordes consider whether Sander professing that he speaketh therein to the bodie and blood of Christ vnder the formes of breade and wine can be reasonably vnderstoode of Christ after any other sorte then vnder the formes of breade and wine Wherefore such bolde speaches as he vseth in this dedication tending to so grosse heresie were a declaration of his proude stomake nowe broken foorth into hainous treason against his owne countrie and actuall rebellion against his souereigne and natural Prince But thou O Lord Iesus Christ our onely Sauiour and Redeemer whome we adore and worship as our King and God not vnder the accidentall shapes of breade and wine but aboue all principalities and powers sitting on the throne of magnificence of God thy eternall father in heauen to whom with thee and the holie Ghost we giue al honor praise for euer vouchsafe if it be thy holy wil to conuert these enemies of thy maiestie vnto the true vnderstanding of thy blessed word or if their obstinate resisting of thy spirit so require shewe forth thy glorious might in their speedie ouerthrowe and confusion that we thy humble seruantes beholding thy wonderfull iudgementes may laude and magnifie thy holy name as well in the saluation of thine elect as in the destruction of thine enemies to thine euerlasting praise and renoune for euer and euer Amen The preface to the Christian reader THe proposition of this painted preface is that the scriptures must be expounded according to the greatest auctority that may be founde in that kinde which Sander assumeth to be the vse custome and practise of the Catholike Church This assumption is false although if it were true it helpeth the Papistes nothing at all which can not shewe the practise of the Catholique Church of all times for any error which they maintaine against vs. The greatest auctoritie in expounding of the scriptures is of the holy Ghost whose iudgemenr can not be certainly founde but in the scriptures them selues wherefore conference of the holy scriptures of God is of greater auctority then the practise of men The scriptures inspired of God are able to make vs wise vnto saluation they are sufficient to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. Wherfore the practise and custome of Gods people must be examined by the scriptures and not the scriptures expounded after it Exposition of the scriptures or prophesying must be according to the analogic of faith Rom. 12. But faith is builded vpon the worde of God and not vpon the custome of men therefore exposition of the scriptures must be according to the word of God and not after the vsage of men The example which Sander vseth to confirme his false assumption is of baptising of infants of Christians before they be taught which doctrine he denieth to be proued by the order of Christes wordes Matth. 28. but by the vse and consent of all nations To this I aunswere that the vse and consent of all nations were not sufficient to warrant the baptisme of infants of the faithfull except the same were warranted by the Scriptures in other places As is manifest in the institution of circumcision According to the couenant whereof the Apostle saith that all our fathers were baptized in the clowde and in the sea 1. Cor. 10. and the children of the faithfull are holy therefore to be admitted to baptisme 1. Cor. 7. because they are comprehended in Gods couenant according to which scriptures they are baptized the infants of Iewes or Gentiles refused and not onely vpon the ground of the Churches custome and vse therin as Sander affirmeth which custome is good because it is grounded vpon the Scriptures but the scripture is not authorized by that custome Wherefore popish confirmation and adoration of the bodye of Christ in the sacrament although he falsely affirmeth that they are the like custome of the Catholike Church are Iewde and vngodly practises of the Papistes because they are not warranted by the holy scriptures but are proued contrarie to the same But whereas we alledge the iudgement of the fathers of the Church for sixe hundred yeres after Christ to be against transubstantiation and adoration Sander replyeth that things vncertein must be iudged by things certeine and not contrariwise This principle is true but it is false that the iudgement of the fathers in the first sixe hundred yeres is vncerteine as also that those foure certeinties which he rehearseth be either all certeinties or certeinly on his side The first is the wordes of the scripture This is my body about whose vnderstanding is all the controuersie and therefore no certeintie that they are on their side more then these words are certeine on our side against transubstantiation The breade which we breake c. so often as ye eate of this bread c. The second is false that in the Catholike church all men worshipped the reall bodie of Christe vnder the formes of bread c. for it is the practise onely of the Popish Church and that but of late yeres neuer admitted by the Orientall churches beside many churches and members of Christes Church in the West that euer did abhorre it Thirdly the Councell of Laterane
Gardener others challenge Theodoret Gelasius Againe he sayth The fathers are against the Protestants because they excuse Hilarie Chrysost. Cyrill by the figure of Hyperbole which is a Rhetoricall lye but in deede this argument is a lewde lye of one which knoweth neither Logike nor Rhetorike but like a young smatterer or a sophisticall cauiller For the figure of Hyperbole is not a lye more then any other figure of Rhetorike in the true vnderstanding thereof whereas after wrong vnderstanding euen that which is spoken without all figure is false and vntrue Finally whereas he chargeth vs to denye the workes of the auncient writers Dionysius Ignatius Polycarpus Abdias c. that is a lowde lye shadowed neither with Rhetorike nor reason for we denye not the workes of those fathers but we refuse counterfeit workes falsely ascribed to them which thing if we proue not by manifest demonstration we require no credit As for that which he cauilleth against master Nowel I omitte as being confuted by master Nowel him selfe But where he sayeth the scriptures woulde neuer abide him that should saye This is not my body I answere we neuer say This is not Christes body after any manner but this is not his body after a grosse carnall or naturall maner and that saying the scripture will abide euen as well as this The rocke was not Christ naturally substantially or essentially although the scripture saye The rocke was Christ. Or this Christ was not a vine properly naturally or substantially notwithstanding that he sayeth I am a verie or true vine The prowde bragge which Sander maketh that popish Catholikes lacke no scripture for any of their assertions how true it is let all men iudge seing that for many things they confesse they haue nothing to shewe but tradition vnwritten Likewise how aptly in this controuersie of the supper he hath examined the wordes of Christes supper noted the circumstances of thinges done and saide there conferred the scriptures of both the testaments and ioyned the fathers of the first sixe hundred yeres And yet he fauoureth him selfe so much in his doing that hee boldly affirmeth vs to haue no helpe of those things For scriptures we cannot conferre to make the wordes of the supper plaine because Doing and the words therof are more playne then any other place of scripture concerning it as the passion of Christ is more playne then the lawe and Prophets c. If this were true the Apostles labored in vayne to proue the passion of Christ out of the lawe and the Prophets and the rest of the writings of the Apostles are needlesse and vncertayne instruction if the historye of the passion doth teach all the doctrine that is necessary to be knowen concerning it But it is a clarkly conclusion of Sander That if the words of the supper be figuratiue none other can be playne as though figuratiue speaches cannot be playne when they are vsed for playnesse sake of them that knowe how to vse them And because Sander chargeth vs Tell me masters c I say likewise Tell me masters Are these wordes recorded to be spoken in the institution action of the supper This is the new Testament in my bloud Tell me I say are these the verie words which Christ then spake or the interpretation of them If they be the very words which of you wil say they are not figaratiue If they be the interpretation then are they more cleere plaine then those words which he vttered This is my bloude Now whether the iudgement of the primitiue Church for the first 600. yeares maketh for vs as it hath in many treatises so in this that followeth it shal be shewed sufficiently Last of all it wil appeare both by the scriptures and testimonie of the fathers that the iudgemēt of the externall senses or naturall reason was not the first argument that might moue thē that first departed from antichristianitie to the ancient true vnderstāding of the mysteries of Christ in his supper Of the almightie power of Christ we doubt no more then of his will reueiled in scriptures in which seeing we learne that Christ concerning his humanitie was made like vs in all things except sin and that our bodies after the resurrection shal be made like to his glorious body Heb. 2 ver 17 Phil. 3. 21 which seeing it cannot stand with transubstantiation wee may not reasō of his power so that we should ouerthrow his wil. For he is almightie to do whatsoeuer he will not willing to do whatsoeuer he can But of the whole matter we shal intreate more at large as occasiō is giuen in the bookes following CAP. II. Certaine notes about the vse and translation of holy scripture to be remembred of him that shall read this booke Sander prosessing that he followeth most the vulgar Latine translation and lest the English Bible because it almost neuer translateth any text well whereof any cōtrouersie is in these our dayes taketh in hand to proue many falsifications and wrong translations in the onely matter of the sacrament of Christes bodye and bloud The first is Iohn the 6. ver 27. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Operamini cibum permanentem The true English were worke the meate which carieth The English bible turneth Operamini labor for We labor saith he for that which we seeke and 〈◊〉 not we worke that stuffe which is present with vs. This corruption the Sacramentaries haue vsed because they doe not beleeue the meate which taryeth to be made really present so that we may worke it by faith and bodie This finall cause is falsely alledged for we beleeue the meate that tarieth vnto eternall life to be made really present by faith to them that receiue the sacrament worthily Contrariewise the papistes holde that the same meate is receiued where it taryeth not vnto etetnall life namely in the wicked And concerning the corruption pretended it is false which Sander saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth alwayes to worke that which is present and not to labour or seeke for that which is absent for saint Paul writeth 2. Thessa. 3. ver 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Si quis non vult operar◠If any man will not labour neither let him eate Euery man cannot worke that stuffe which is present as in Sanders example of a Carpenter working a peece of tymber therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth to labour generally either in seeking that which is absent or in working that which is present Wherefore this is a doltish distinction of doctor Sander and a manifest corruption of the text by leauing out such words as shewe the vanitie of this cauill and ouerthrowe the difference of this distinction For the wordes of Christ are these speaking to the Iewes which sought him being absent not because they sawe his miracles but because they had beene filled with his breade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Labor ye not for the meate which perisheth but for the
meate which abideth vnto eternall life 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is but once set downe which must be referred as wel to the meat which perisheth as to the meate which taryeth but being applyed to the meate which perisheth it cannot be turned Worke not the meare which perisheth as stuffe that is present but Labor not or seeke not for it as you doe which is absent therefore it must be so turned as it may serue for both And where as Sander saith that this meat is not laboured for because it is not sought out by our diligence but giuen by Christ it is a fonder reason except you wil say that we must not labor for any good thinges because all good thinges are the giftes of God Finally that you may see what a singular quarrelling vaine glorious person he is to seeke a knot in a rush you shal vnderstande that the papistes themselues translate this place euen as the great bible doeth namely Heskins as well learned a Papist as Sander lib. 2. Cap. 2. of his popishe Parliament The second text which he pretendeth to be falsified is ver 57. of the same chapter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Qui manducat me ipse viuet propter me The true English is He that eateth me he shal also liue for me The english bible readeth he that eateth me shall liue by the meanes of me The best colour of his cauil is that propter patrem is translated in the same ver For the father Howbeit seing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or propter signifieth the efficient cause there is no fraude in turning it By the meanes of me which is the same that is meant by For me and as I thinke was so turned by the translators to shewe that For the father includeth not the finall cause as it might seeme but the eternall efficient cause of life As for the cauillation that a man may liue by meanes of him which is absent is altogether childish and ridiculous for who can vnderstande him to be absent which is eaten The controuersie is not of the presence but of the maner of the presence But howe can the Papists digest this saying of Christ He that eateth me shall liue by me or for me when they affirme that wicked men eate him which liue not by him for this is generally true of all that eate him and not to be restrayned to them that eate him worthily For the Sacrament in deede may be eaten vnworthily but Christ himselfe is not eaten but where he giueth life The 3. corruption obserued by Sander is vers 58. of Iohn 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Qui manducat hunc panem viuet in aeternum The true English were He that eateth this bread shall liue for euer The Bible doth english it He that eateth of this bread The adding of this word Of may be the Printers fault for many translations reade without Of. But seeing Sander confesseth it is a true saying he that eateth of this breade vsed by Christ before verse 51. heere can bee no corruption or falsification prooued As for the distinction which Sander maketh betweene eating Christ and eating of Christ eating his flesh and eating of his flesh is friuolus and vaine for none eate of him but they which eate him Yes saith he Of him we may eate without the Sacrament but him selfe wee properly eate onely vnder the forme of breade Howe vntrue this is you may see by this argument None can haue eternall life except they eate Christ and the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloode But manie haue eternall life which eate not the Sacrament Therefore manie eate Christ and the fleshe of Christ which eate not the Sacrament Ioan. 6. ver 53. 57. The 4. falsification is in S. Matth. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cùm accepisset Iesus panem gratias egisset fregit dedit discipulis ait The true English is Iesus hauing taken breade and giuen thankes or blessed brake and gaue to the disciples and saide The common Bible readeth Iesus tooke breade and when he had giuen thankes hee brake it and gaue i◠to the disciples The holy scripture saieth not that Iesus brake it neither that hee gaue it but that hee brake and gaue Againe in saint Marke saint Luke and saint Paul fiue times putting the particle it which is neither in the Greeke nor in the Latine Bible Who woulde thinke that an auncient man would play the boye so kindly What say you Sander is not the particle it added neither in Greeke nor Latine When the accusatiue case is once set downe and then followe transitiue verbes is it the phrase of the Greeke or Latine tongue to adde the particle it You say he brake and gaue but not brake it nor gaue it Will you teach vs a newe Grammer that fregit and dedit be verbes newters absolute Or if you wil say they bee verbes actiue transitiues lest the wilde Irish boyes that goe to the Grammer schoole should hisse at you as you goe about your popish and trayterous commission I would wish some young Redshanke ladde to oppose you and aske you what hee brake and what hee gaue If hee brake not and gaue not it which hee tooke If you say hee brake his bodie and not the breade because you say he so gaue his bodie that hee gaue no breade aduise your selfe howe you will aunswere the breaking of Christes body which was but once broken for vs on the crosse but yet not broken into seuerall peeces as that thing whatsoeuer you will call it was broken which hee gaue to his disciples And this vndoubtedly you meane when you say The wordes of saint Matthew doe not all stande in order in so much as Christ said the wordes of consecration before hee brake the sacrament or gaue to his disciples And doe you nowe complaine of Saint Matthewe for disordering the words Verily saint Marke saint Luke and saint Paul place the wordes in such sort as saint Matthew doeth And if all these Euangelists and Apostles doe set the words out of order whence come you that will take vpon you to set thē in order Haue you other places of scripture to proue this pretended inuersion of order And if you had haue you forgotten what you did write euen nowe in the preface that if there bee any obscuritie founde in the wordes of the supper there is no other part of scripture that can cleere them But standing of the wordes out of order and that in euerie one that rehearseth them must needes make vncerteintie and obscuritie yea this standing or not standing out of order may decide a great parte of the controuersie for if the wordes were spoken after he brake and gaue then he brake and gaue breade And seeing the placing of the wordes in all the Euangelistes and saint Paul fauour this opinion you shall not easily prooue the contrary against so manie faithfull and prudent witnesses which had a care to place
figuratiuely because a figuratiue speach can signifie no certeine thing vntil it be plainly vnderstanded This I denie for a figuratiue speache may signifie one certeine thing which the speaker meaneth although the hearer vnderstand it not at all Howbeit that which Christ did here speake figuratiuely was easily vnderstood of all his hearers which were well accustomed to such kinde of speaches But Sander replyeth that the Apostles were simple men Idiots and vnderstood not the scriptures therefore they could not vnderstand how the signe might be called by the name of the thing I answere although they were simple vnlearned men in deede and such as vnderstood not the scriptures in such full measure as was necessarie for them to discharge so great an office as was laid vpon them yet Sander doth them too much wrong to make them or any godly person of that time so ignorant in the scriptures that they vnderstoode not the nature of a Sacrament considering they were circumcised did celebrate the Passeouer euery yere the verie name wherof must needes teach them howe the signe may be called by the thing signified And therfore it is out of measure ridiculous foolish that Sander prateth of the true first meaning of the wordes of Christ. For what will the vaine iangler make to be the true and first meaning of these wordes of Christ This cupp is the newe Testament What verifying of contradictories what diuers soundings what true tokens what things present O great diuinitie of Popish doctors But the Apologie is confuted by his owne saying when he calleth the Eucharist an euident token of the bodie and bloud if it be euident saith he it is quickly vnderstood Call women and children and aske them what token the wordes of Christ make Nay rather call Turkes Sarazens and aske the question if it must be euident to them vnto whome the mysterie is not reuealed The token is euident to them that are instructed not to such as neuer heard of it as belike where Sander hath to do women and children are But God be thanked women and children instructed in the Church of Christ can tell him howe euident a token it is of their spirituall feeding on the bodie and bloud of Christ. But that wordes must be taken as they commonly sound he will proue by the institution of the sacrament of Penance as he termeth it Whose sinnes you forgiue they are forgiuen c. where as much is giuen as is signified by the wordes If this be true all cases reserued both episcopall and Papall are in case to bee forgiuen by euery priest of the lowest degree But here the Apologie which denyeth the Sacrament of Penance is charged to haue falsified the wordes of Christ saying they are meant whose sinnes you declare to be forgiuen If the Apologie doe not truely expound the wordes of Christe yet doeth it not falsifie them except Sander will saye that euerie wrong exposition is a falsification Howe Christes wordes are to be taken as Sander will not dispute in this place so neither will I stande here to discusse But this is a bolde determination of him that many wordes may signifie vnproperly in other places but the principall wordes of a Sacrament cannot be vnproper For the nature of the thing doeth limit the interpretation of the wordes If this doctorall determination be true then these are proper speaches The rocke is Christ the Lambe is the Passeouer the cuppe is the newe Testament baptisme is the lauer of regeneration And S. Augustines rule De doct Christ lib. 3. Ca. 16. must giue place to D. Sanders decree Si autem flagiâ—iis c. If the words of scripture seeme to coÌ„maunde any wicked nor vngodly acte or to forbid any profit or well doing it is a figure Except ye shall eate saith he the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you shal haue no life in you it seemeth to commande a wicked or heinous act Therfore it is a figure commanding vs to communicate with the Lordes passion and profitable to kepe in remembrance that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. Againe Locut de Gen. lib. 1. fol. 72. Tres fundi tres dies sunt noÌ„ dixit tres dies significaÌ„t Et multuÌ„ haec locutio notanda est vbi aliqua significantia earum rerum quas significant nomine appellantur Inde est quod ait Apostolus Petra autem erat Christus non ait Petra significabat Christum Three basketes are three daies he said not they signifie three daies And this kind of speech is much to be marked where any signifying thinges are called by the names of those thinges which they doe signifie Hereof it is that the Apostle saieth And the rocke was Christ hee saith not the Rocke did signifie Christ. Finally where Sander saieth it is against the nature of a Sacrament not to signifie plainly I agree with him affirming that the bread and wine which is eaten and dronken doe plainly signifie that we are fed spiritually with the very body and bloud of Christ vnto the full assurance of our perseuerance continuance in the fauour of God euen vntill we be put in possession of eternall life and the wordes in this Sacrament be as plaine as in the other but the diuell to aduance the kingdome of Antichrist hath deuised a monstrous interpretation of them to make a most abhominable Idoll of desolation of the most holy and comfortable sacrament of Christes death and passion CAP. XII Which argument is more agreeable to the word of God it is a token of the body made by Christ and therefore not the body or els therefore it is the true body of Christ. Sander to dispute for his life would take the conclusion thus it is a signe of his body therfore it is his bodie in deed So that Sander to dispute for his life would ouerthrow the nature of opposites which cannot stande both together at one time and in one respect But as though Logike were contrarie to the word of God hee will haue the argument tryed by the word of God And first he reiecteth the Sacramentes instituted before the incarnation of Christ which he saith were signes in part emptie and voide of the trueth which they signified because trueth is made by Iesus Christ. As though Iesus Christ concerning the trueth of doctrine and the grace of saluation were not yesterday and to day the same for euermore the Lambe slaine from the beginning of the worlde Hebr. 13. Apocalipse 13. Secondly hee bringeth examples of the Angell speaking to Marie of Christe speaking to the leprous man to him that had the palsie to the disciples of Iohn baptist to the dumme man to proue that when at the doing of any thing an outward signe of an inwarde grace is rehearsed that which the signe soundeth the grace worketh When Sander shal dispute for his life he must chuse him an easye aduersary for els he will soone loose
a signifying mysterie So that the sense is it is called the bodie of Christe that is to saye it signifieth it The author of this glosse durst not haue written thus if it had not beene an opinion generally receiued that the wordes of Christ were not proper but figuratiue Thirdely it is against the glorie of GOD that the bodie of Christ shoulde be so made present as it should enter not onely into the mouth of wicked persons as a deade bodie working no life but also into the bellyes of brute beastes which is euen horrible to name Fourthly it is not agreeable to the loue of Christ toward vs in his second comming that his bodie by such a presence shoulde bee thought to haue lost all naturall conditions of a substantiall bodie seeing the scripture putteth vs in hope that our vile bodies shall be made confirmable at his comming to his glorious body Philip. 3. Wherefore that heresie of carnall presence is contrarie to our faith of the resurrection of our bodies Fiftly it is against the profite of Christes Church which by his ascension is drawen vpward into heauen from the earth but by this imagined presence is mooued to looke downe vnto Christ vpon the earth Col. 3. Therfore in all these respects the exposition of the wordes must be figuratiue Another reason Sander hath that seeing all figures were inuented either for lacke of words or for pleasantnesse of speaking and Christ neither lacked wordes nor can be prooued to haue spoken figuratiuely onely for his pleasure therefore he spake not figuratiuely If there be no more causes of figuratiue speach then these two noted by Sander then Christ neuer vsed any figuratiue speaches for hee neuer wanted wordes to haue spoken properly that other men could speake properly neither can he be prooued to haue spoken figuratiuely only for his pleasure and least of all he affected the praise of Eloquence But if it be out of question Sander also coÌ„fesseth that in other places Christ spake figuratiuely then is it out of question that this argument of Sander is not worth the paring of his nayles For there are other causes of figuratiue speaches then these two by him alledged and especially the profite of the hearers who are more moued and better vnderstande often times by figuratiue then by proper speaches And for this cause yâ— holy ghost speaking of Sacraments doth vsually call theÌ„ figuratiuely by the names of that they signifie seale vnto vs as the Lamb is called the Passeouer baptisme regeneration the bread his bodie the cuppe the newe Testament The profite that wee take by these kinde of speaches is great for they admonishâ—s to be as sure of the things as we are of the signes when the signes beare the name of the things signified and promised by them Of Saint Augustines rule of figuratiue speaches Sander that loueth no repetitions hath written a whole Chapter before lib. 3. Cap. 14. and therefore I will say no more of it here onely I note that by quoting the place hee abuseth Augustines rule against his owne example which he bringeth of eating and drinking the body and bloud of Christ to proue that Christes wordes are not figuratiue when Augustine saith expresly those wordes are figuratiue which Christe spake of eating and drinking his flesh and bloud The rocke was Christ he sayeth must needes be a figuratiue speach because it can not be proper And for the same cause say we These wordes This is my body are figuratiue for that they can not be proper But Sander replieth that if he had saide this breade is my body it might haue beene so thought for breade cannot bee his body no more then the rocke be Christ. yet S. Paul doubteth not to say this bread of that of which before he had said this is my bodie 1. Cor. 11. And I aske Sander what was that which Christ had in his hand and whereof he said this It coulde not be his bodie before the words of consecration spokeÌ„ as all Catholike papists affirme then it was bread then the word following Is will not suffer the sense to be this shal be my body wherefore in effect it is all one to say hauing bread in his hand This is my body and to say This bread is my body the one is impossible by Sanders confession ergo by necessitie of argument the other CAP. II. That at all other so the wordes of Christes supper ought to bee taken properlie vntill the contrarie doeth euidently appeare By autoritie of Tertullian and Marcellus the Lawyer he laboureth to proue that all words must be taken in their proper signification except the contrarie be manifestly showen Likewise Epiphanius affirmeth that all wordes in the Scripture neede not to be taken figuratiuelie and that to know which is figuratiue and which is not diligent consideration and ancient tradition helpeth much All this I confesse but withall I affirme that these wordes This is my bodie both by diligent consideration and ancient tradition are found to bee figuratiue Neither hath Sander any thing to the contrarie Yes I wis the Pronowne This saith he pointeth not to a thing absent No verilie for it pointeth to the breade that was in his hande Neither the Verbe Is can bee saide of that which presently hath no true being ergo it cannot bee saide of the bodie of Christe which by your owne diuinitie hath no being in the Sacrament before the last syllable of Hoc est corpâ—â— meum bee pronounced then it is necessarie to bee saide of the breade in his hande whiche had a true being And then by your owne rule in the Chapter before these wordes being as much as This breade is my bodie must needes bee figuratiue because they cannot bee proper for breade and Christes bodie bee two seuerall-natures that cannot stande together CAP. III. The proper signification of these wordes This is my bodie and This is my bloude is that the substance of Christs bodie and bloude is contained vnder the visible formes of bread and wine If the speech were proper and not figuratiue yet the substance of breade being shewed and the substance of the cuppe and of that which is in the cuppe being shewed it woulde not followe the bodie and bloude to bee vnder these accidentes of breade and wine but either with the substance of breade and wine or rather that his bodie and bloude were breade and wine For Sanders similitude hath nothing like to this matter this is an Elephant that is the substance of an Elephant is contained vnder this visible forme But let him bring example of any thing which bearing visible forme of one substance is called by the name of another substance Might not Moses haue said truly to the Israelites in the wildernes in the behalfe of God pointing to the Rocke This is Christ or the bodie of Christ as well as Saint Paule saith that Rocke was Christ Therefore looke what woulde be the sense of
to giue his bodie did he speake more then he did perfourme For he gaue his bodie in deede and daily giueth it to be receiued spiritually vnder the sacrament of breade and wine But that hee shoulde giue it by conuersion of the elements into his bodie and bloud loue could not moue him to giue it otherwise than as it might be most profitable for vs and most honourable for him that was to giue it spiritually to be receiued The seuenth circumstance of washing the Apostles feete Because Christ washed his Apostles feete the custome of the Church saith he hath bene that all catholike Bishops and priâ—siâ— haue vsed before they came to consecrate to wash the verie tops of their fingers not to handle breade and wine for then Christ might haue washed his disciples handes before they had eaten the Paschall Lambe at the eating whereof was bread and wine but cleane consciences were sufficient for eating of that bread wine but the other must haue also the bodies purified for the more worthie receiuing therof This is newe diuinitiea nd newe Logike also Christ washed his Apostles feete therefore Bishops Priests vse to wash the toppes of their fingers before they consecrate when it were more reason they should wash the peoples feete who by his saying must haue their bodies also purified for the more worthie receiuing This is a poore circumstance to proue that Christs words are not figuratiue The eight circumstance concerning the place of the last supper If the house in which Christ kept his Passeouer had been material some of the Euangelists would haue noted that it stood in Zion as well as Nicephorus Damascen who could hardly know the place seeing Ierusalem was vtterly destroyed long before their time another city built not standing in place of the old Ierusalem That a great vnacustomed matter was done in the house so found by miracle we confesse but that proueth not that Christs speech was proper because it was not abroad in the temple or synagogue but in a close parlour But where Sander saith Christ gaue to euery one of his Apostles a loafe vnder the forme whereof his owne substance was conteined it is against yâ— scripture which saieth he brake the bread he gaue them against Cyrillus which saith he gaue them pieces of bread against reason that euery one should eate a loaf of bread although they wer but smal when they had supped twise before in that euening at the Paschall Lamb at an ordinarie supper But if the table be real saith Sander much more the meat is reall Wee denie not but the meat is real that is real bread wine to the bodie and the bodie and bloud of Christ to be receiued of the soule for if al things be reall why should not the bread and wine be reall The ninth circumstance of the taking bread wine Christ tooke bread wine who neuer touched the thing which he did not sanctifie Yes he touched Iudas lippes with his lippes yet did he not sanctifie them But he sanctified the bread wine to the vse of his supper Neither went the vertue from him as Sander saieth by touching of his garments but by faith for many at the same time did not only touch him but thrust throng him yet they all receiued not vertue from him Secondly he tooke vnleauened bread which was alreadie figuratiue bread therfore he goeth not about to doe that was done alreadie to make it figuratiue bread I answer the Paschall Lamb was eaten and therefore the bread was common bread although vnleauened which was to be eaten seuen dayes after But what letteth if it once figured one thing but that he might take it to make it a figure of an other thing for Saint Paul sheweth that it figured sinceritie and trueth nowe it is a seale of the remission of finnes by the death of Christ. Thirdly Christ taking bread and wine pointeth not to his Apostles as though he would consecrate somewhat in their breasts as Caluine dreameth but in breade and wine wee must seeke the first worke of his supper And therefore Sander dreameth that Christ meant to consecrate nothing in the Apostles brestes He begon with taking bread and wine ergo he did worke nothing in the Apostles breastes A sounde reason I promise you Last of all this putteth vs in minde of that great Priest Melchisedek as Cyprian teacheth But the Apostle writing to the Hebrues could haue taught vs more certeinly if he could haue seene any such comparison betweene Christ and Melchizedeck Heb. 7. And euery sacrifice saith he is changed in substance from the former nature it had sometime killed sometime burned sometime eaten therefore Christ must change the breade wine into his bodie and bloud If we should admitte a sacrifice as most of the olde writers call the celebration of the supper a sacrifice of thankesgiuing verily the change by eating and drinking were sufficient to make it answere to the change required in a sacrifice without transubstantiation which was not vsed in any sacrifice The tenth circumstance of blessing First when Christ blesseth it is not necessarie that hee should make any outward token of lifting vp his eyes or handes and least of all with making the signe of the crosse as Sander dreameth waking And although when he blesse he speake by the way of doing or bestâ—â—ing some reall benefite it followeth not but that his speach may be figuratiue which is not alwayes imperfect as Sander saith but being well vsed is better then comon speech Although what blessing meaneth in this place the other Euangelistes do declare which call his blessing thanksgiuing And yet I denie not but Christ blessed the bread and wine which he sanctified to be a diuine sacrament of his bodie and bloud for the assurance of remission of sinnes by the newe testament which is established in his bloud The eleuenth circumstance of giuing thankes The best thankes saith he are those that are giuen in worde and deede therefore Christ gaue not thankes figuratiuely neither be the wordes of thankesgiuing figuratiue as the Sacramentaries saye The wordes in which Christ gaue thankes are not expressed therefore the Sacramentaries saie not that they are either figuratiue or proper But Sander would haue these wordes This is my bodie to be the wordes of thankesgiuing because Irenaeus saith Panem in quo gratiae actâ—e sunt corpus esse domini that the breade in which thankes is giuen is the bodie of our Lorde as though thankes could not be giuen but by those wordes onlie which are not wordes of thankesgiuing to God but of declaring to men how to esteeme that which Christe giueth namely as a true pledge of his bodie and bloud as if one deliuering the broad seale to a condemned man saie this is a pardon for you That Christ gaue thankes to God both in worde and deede not onlie at this
did signifie and exhibit euen as the sacrament of his supper doth vnto vs. I say marke Master Doctor Sander you that are so great a Grammarian and consider whether Ista commemoratio in the last sentence be not the same that it is in the first And marke whether ille and iste That and this can be referred to one and the same commemoration But Augustine or Fulgentius de fide ad Petrum declareth how the sacrament is a remembrance of Christâ— in rehearsall of which saying Sander playeth the same part that hee did before that is hee omitteth the one halfe of the discourse which maketh altogether against transubstantiation Firmissimè â—ene c. Most stedfastly beleeue thou and nothing doubt that the onely begotten sonne God the worde being made fleshe hath offred himselfe for vs to bee a sacrifice and oblation of sweete sauour vnto GOD to whome with the father and the holy ghost by the Patriarches Prophetes priests in time of the old testament beasts were sacrificed and to whom now that is in time of the new testament with the father and the holy Ghost with whom he hath one diuinitie the holy Catholike Church thoroughout the whole worlde ceaseth not to offer the sacrifice of breade and wine in faith and charitie For in those carnall sacrifices there was a figuring of the fleshe of Christe which hee himselfe beeing without sinne should offer for our sinnes and of his bloude which hee should shedde for the remission of our sinnes now beginneth Sander But in this sacrifice there is thaÌ„ksâ—iuing and a coÌ„memoration of the flesh of Christ which â—e offered for vs and of his bloude which the same God â—id shedde for vs. Therefore in those sacrifices it was fiâ—uratiuely signified what should be giuen vs But in this â—acrifice it is euidently shewed what hath nowe beene â—iuen vs in these sacrifices it was before hande shewed â—hat the sonne of God shoulde bee afterwarde killed for â—icked men but in this he is alreadie shewed to haue â—eene alreadie killed for wicked men That Sander oâ—itteth a sentence which is not materiall I will not â—uarrell with him But nowe we must marke saith he the â—ordes of Fulgentius of the olde sacrifices figuratè signiâ—â—cabatur it was figuratiuely signified by the newe sacriâ—ice euidenter ostenditur it is euidently shewed If wee had â—ot Christes bodie present the old shadows would shew â—is death better theÌ„ bread wine flesh would shew flesh â—nd bloud would shew bloud and killing would shew â—illing In deede it is good to marke the writers wordes Shall we then skippe ouer the authors wordes which calleth this newe sacrifice whereof he speaketh so much sacrificium panis vini the sacrifice of breade and wine Therefore when he saith In this sacrifice I aske what sacrifice he telleth me in the sacrifice of bread and wine is euidently shewed what is alreadie giuen vs You see Fulgentius meaneth euident shewing otherwise then Sander doth which thinketh it cannot be by breade and wine And as to Sanders reason that flesh sheweth flesh more euidently then breade I answere that Fulgentius compareth not so much the euidence of the signes as the difference of the times which then was to come nowe is past concerning the passion of Christ. Although that which is shewed to be perfourmed already is more euidentlie shewed then that which is darkely promised to be perfourmed hereafter And the doctrine of the Gospell in preaching Christes death is a more cleere and euident demonstration of his benefites then the doctrine of the sacrifices was But Sander compareth the flesh of the olde sacrifices and the breade of the Lordes supper as though it were none otherwise shewed to bee the remembrance of Christes death in the Church of Christ then it is in their popish masse whereas Fulgentius speaketh not of the bare ceremonie of the Sacrament but of the Sacrament with the doctrine there vnto belonging which is tence times a more euident shewing of Christes death then the olde sacrifices were Otherwise he might say that circumcision was a more euident shewing of mortification and regeneration then baptisme because that which was done in the member naturally made for generation did more euidently shewe those mysteries then dipping or sprinkling of water But as their ceremonies were more sensible demonstrations so the doctrine of our sacraments is wonderfully more cleere and euident Finally seeing this writer entendeth to teach Peter the Deacon most plainely why doth he call the sacrameâ—â— the sacrifice of breade and wine if there be no breade and wine in that holy office or seruice for so hee taketh the worde Sacrifice and not properly as his whole exposition doeth shewe For if he had meant a popish reall presence why doth hee not once name any thing sounding there to if hee had meant a propitiatorie sacrifice why doth he so manifestly distinguish it from the sacrifice of Christ and place it onely in thankesgiuing and remembrance of Christ crucified Verily this place whether it was written by Augustine or Fulgentius it is vtter enimie to transubstantiation and the propitiatorie sacrifice of the popish masse But what neede I bring the fathers one by one saith Sander sith the whole seconde Councell of Nice doubted not to say A worshipfull Councell of vnlearned Idolaters And what say they Nemo sanctorum c. None of the holy Apostles which are the trumpet of the holy Ghost either of our glorious fathers hath said our vnbloudy sacrifice which is made in the remembrance of Christ our Lord and God his passion and of his whole conuersation to be an image of that bodie If this Councell say true that none of the Apostles haue so said then Sander is condemned by this Councell for falsifying the Scripture Heb. 10. when vnder colour of the Apostles wordes he affirmeth the sacrament not to be a shadowe of thinges to come but to be the image of the thing it selfe Lib. 3. Cap. 10. But that all these fathers do lie when they say none of our fathers haue said the sacrifice to be an image of his bodie it might be proued by diuerse ancient witnesses among which I will name Ambrose Offici lib. 1. ca. 1. who speaking of the sacrament which he calleth the sacrifice wherein Christ is offered saieth Hîc in imagine ibi in veritate heere in an image there hee is offered in trueth where as an aduocate hee maketh intercession with the father for vs. In this saying what is the image but the sacrament and whereof is it an Image of his bodie where the image is also perfectly distinguished from the truth Also Theodoret Dialog calleth the sacrament an image oporâ—es imaginis esse exemplar archeâ—ypum The chiefe paterne must bee an example of the image meaning by the paterne Christ by the image the sacrament of his supper Finally to the authoritie of this seconde Nicen councell I oppose the Ephesine Councell which determined against images and affirmed the Sacrament of
significat in the consecration of the bloud hic remaineth without a substantiue Fulke A bable answered lib. 4. circumst 23. Sand. 18 In these words this cuppe is the new testament in my bloude you take the nowne bloud for the signe of bloud and so the new testament established by the figure of bloud Fulke Ye fable we take it properly and these words to bee a true exposition of these wordes This is my bloude Sand. 19 If you take bloud properly in these words it must also be proper in these This is my bloud Fulke That followeth not Sand. 20 The construction of these words This cup is shed for you prooueth that which is in the cuppe to be shed which you say is wine Fulke This cauil is answered lib. 4. circumst 26. 27. Sand. 21 In Christs words The breade which I will giue is my flesh you expounde I haue giuen and I doe giue Fulke Yea I will giue as I haue done and doe Sand. 22 In Saint Paul The breade which wee breake is the communicating c. you expounde signifieth the communicating As though the Iewes figures did not the same and yet there S. Paul distincteth our sacraments from theirs Fulke And how can bread be the communicating of the bodie of Christ but as the Iewes Sacramentes were the same Saint Paul sheweth what our sacraments haue like with theirs the ceremonies of the Gentiles also not what difference there is You are wel studied in Saint Paul Sand. 23. The cuppe of blessing you wil haue to be a cuppe of wine as though the blessing wrought nothing in it Fulke As though blessing can worke nothing but transubstantiation Sand. 24. You make Christ giue thankes to his father in beginning the state of the new testament in better words then deede for his words are This is my body yet you will haue him to offer no bodie at all to his father in that thanksgiuing Fulke Where learned you that the beginning of the state of the newe testament was at the institution of the supper Belike baptisme pertained not to the state of the newe testament Secondly howe prooue you that This is my bodie are words of thanksgiuing or oblation to god Sand. 25. You teach Christ to be an instituter of shadowes and to giue to our mouthes lesse then Moses for Manna was better then common breade Fulke Sacraments be no shadows Neither did Moses giue Manna but God for ought that I knowe And it is most conuenient that the signes of the new testament should be lesse glorious then of the old because the doctrine is more cleare Sand. 26. Ye expound to be guiltie of Christs bodie and bloud for eating that is to say for not eating or refusing to eate For you teach euil men not to eat the bodie of Christ. Fulke For wee expounde guiltie for eating to bee guiltie for eating the Sacrament vnworthily that is in some vnreuerently or negligently in some contēptuously refusing that Christ doth offer thereby Sand. 27. You will not haue Christes supper to bee an externall sacrifice and to be worse then Iewish and Idolaters altars and tables who both did sacrifice and S. Paul compareth Christes table with theirs Fulk We will haue no more sacrifices but the onely and once offered sacrifice of Christes death for our redemption The repetition of sacrifice sheweth an imperfection in it and not a betternes Saint Paul compareth Christes table with the altar table of diuels not in sacrifice but in causing the partakers to communicate with their altars tables which sheweth what the communicating of Christes table is and ouerthroweth your carnall presence Sand. 28. You expounde the shewing of Christes death by a figure whereby you shew him not to be truly deade Fulk You shewe it by eating him aliue whereby there is no argument of his death We shewe it by preaching ioyned to the visible element without which it is lame dead and vnperfect Sand. 29 Ye expounde the not making difference c. in such sort that hee will not haue the bodie present wherein difference is to be made Fulk As though difference of the kings person and authoritie can not be made but in the kings presence Sand. 30 Ye denie our vnion with Christes fleshe by corporall participation which S. Paul teacheth by example of Adam and Eue being two in one flesh Fulk Our corporall participation is by his incarnation which is applied vnto vs by faith through his spirite vniting vs vnto him and testifyed in the supper Sand. 31 Whereas Christ is so much more excellent then Angels by howe much he hath a more excellent name you regarde not the name bodie and blood giuen to the mysteries but affirme them to bee as they were before c. Fulk The Apostle reasoneth not because Christ hath a better name but because he hath it by inheritance for else the Angels are named the sonnes of God and princes are called Gods You haue not sought Christ in the scriptures but the confirmation of your heresie Againe we so much regarde the name of bodie and bloode giuen to the mysteries that wee beleeue them to bee the same that they are called after a spirituall manner although they haue not that name by inheritance but by grace affirming in the elementes a greate alteration from that they were before not in substance but in vse and effecte Sand. 32 No promise in the scriptures can be found made to him that eateth and drinketh materiall breade and wine but to him that receiueth the bodie and blood of Christ. Therefore you affirme breade to bee eaten and wine to be dronken in the supper beside the worde of God Fulk The promise is made in scripture to him that eateth and drinketh bread and wine according to Christs institution although not for eating bread and drinking wine onely This reason would prooue that water is vsed without the worde of God in baptisme because no promise is made to him that is washed in water but to him that is washed according to Christes institution Sand. 33 Although Dauid prophecied of eating and adoring you will graunt no meate to bee externally adored Fulk Dauid neuer prophesied of adoring the sacrament Sand. 34 Notwithstanding the Prophets teach that all externall idolatrie is taken awaye by the comming of Christ you say idolatry is committed in worshipping the sacrament Fulk The Prophetes teach not that idolatrie externall shall be taken away by the comming of Christ but among true Christians which do renounce all worshipping of idols Sand. 35 Christ came to saue feed the whole man◠why deny you the foode of life to our bodies Fulk We affirme that Christ feedeth bodie soule vnto eternall life without the sacrament and with it although the foode of life be not receaued at the mouth like other meates nor swallowed and disgested as they are Sand. 36 If in the supper we seede on Christ by faith alone why is it called a supper more then baptisme