not to be an horse but a dog that the simple man cannot answere yet neuerthelesse because he is sure it is a horse and his owne not a dog the other may make many reasons which he vnderstādeth not how to auoide notwithstanding they cannot once bring him in doubt or to goe from that which he knoweth Euen so al the subtil cauillations of the diuel and his ministers when they come against the faith and knowledge of a godlie simple man which is grounded in the word of God cannot once moue him the déepe fetches and subtilties may make him muse but yet because he doth certainly know the trueth he doth not giue ouer that he hath felt the power of the word of God in himselfe and therfore is out of doubt it hath done that in him which cannot be wrought but by GOD. Vnstable soules may be beguiled for they haue not felt the power of godlines Yée would haue mée proue that God commaundeth the vnlearned men to studie and exercise themselues in the Scriptures I am ashamed to heare ye doubt of that matter Pa. If ye be ashamed to haue that doubted of then I trow ye will be ashamed not to proue it Pro. I would you would be also ashamed of your wilfull blindnesse and sée when things are manifestly proued Did not God vtter his word by Moses vnto the Israelites both men and women Did he not giue it them in their owne tongue Did he not charge them by Moses euen the lay people Deut. 6. and 11. that they should put his words vpon their heart and vpon their soule and binde them for a signe vpon their hands and teach them their children to talke of thē as they sat in the house as they walked by the way when they did lie downe and when they did rise vp Hosh 4. Are not the people blamed both among the Iewes and also in the time of the Gospell for their ignorance and dulnes Are they not exhorted to grow in knowledge and vnderstanding euery where Heb. 5. Did not Christ and all his Apostles trauell night and day to bring the people to vnderstanding 2. Pet. 3. Doe not the Apostles pray that they might be filled and abound in all knowledge Colos 1. Did they not giue great charge vnto other to teach and féede the flocke diligently Philip. 1. Acts 20. 2. Tim. 4. Did they not open all the counsels of God vnto the people Will your holy mother the whore of Babylon bee wiser then all these Did all these trauell in vaine Did Paul foolishly when he commaunded that men should not speake in the Church in a strange language 1. Cor. 14. vnlesse it were interpreted that so the rest might bee edified For shame giue ouer and confesse that your great whore hath done as fowle villanie to the Church of God as could bee in taking from thē the word of life and putting out the light to the ende that she might play the whore and commit all her abominations in the darke where none should espie them The light doth now shine so cléere that she shall neuer bee able to hide her selfe any more nor to couer her shame vnlesse it bee among those Night-birdes such as you are which cannot abide the light Pa. VVould yee make men beleeue that it is commaunded as a thing so necessarie and profitable when we see what followeth since the scriptures haue been opened vnto the people VVhat a multitude of sects and diuisions and quarrels haue risen VVhence commeth all this but that holy things are giuen to dogs Matth. 7. and precious pearles are cast before swine The vnholy and vnpure and sinfull men doe as it were with filthie vnwashed hands handle the heauenly mysteries and each man doeth gather for his turne that which liketh himselfe and then they are puffed vp and prattle they know not what I wisse I wisse they might bee better occupied then to meddle with the word of God which should not be touched but with great reuerence now euery one will bee pratling of it euen vpon their ale-bench Wherefore did Christ speake in parables Luke 8. Matth. 23. and tolde the Apostles that to them it did belong to know the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that they might see and not see Doubtlesse as I sayd before there is great cause why the scriptures should not be knowne of the people When they did not know them they agreed and went all one way now hee is of this sect hee is of that sect he sayth this is trueth another saith that a man cannot tell which way to turne him Your learned men also themselues are at warre one against another one confuting another in their sermons in their writings alas must it not then much more follow among the vnlearned people If the learned cannot vnderstād the Scriptures how shall they which haue no learning O how well were our forefathers which knew none of all this I would the reading of the Scriptures did make men no worse thē they were they had good soules to Godward now men are starke nought Pro. The great subtiltie of the diuell to draw men away from reading the Scriptures appeareth in ye ye would proue it not only a thing vnnecessarie to haue them knowne but also very euill This yée proue by the effects which follow as diuisions and quarrels and sects by the same reason ye may proue that it had béen good neuer to haue heard of Christ about whom there haue béen so many quarrels in the world Esay 28. 2. Pet. 1. Many doe stumble at him he is the rocke of offence vnto many but the fault is in men and not in him Euen so the wicked which abuse the Gospell although they be neuer so many yet must not cause the small number of Gods elect to be depriued of their right and to be spoyled of their comfort So soone as the Gospell appeareth the diuell laboureth by his instruments to bring an infamie vpon it and to make men beléeue it is naught for it is he which raiseth vp sects and errors Gods word is not the cause He would by that meanes bring men into a maze that they should not know which way to turne them But you say the cause is that holy things are giuē to dogs and precious pearles are cast before swine Ye reason euen like your forefathers the proude Pharisies which took themselues to be so holy that they were not to bee taught and so wise skilfull that they regarded not others The multitude were accursed Iohn 9. the blind mā he was altogether borne in sinne you wretches count them dogs and swine and your selues holie whereas your selues haue plaied the notable vilaines and haue dealt vnreuerētly with the word of God Matth. 9. The Pharisies blamed Christ that he did eate with Publicanes sinners he answered that he came not to call the righteous Luke
Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
séeme to be yet God will refuse to acknowledge ye for his seruants because ye refuse his ordinances and deuise toyes of your owne which ye thrust vpon him and as it were force him to accept them If ye did meane well ye would doe better your deuotion is diuellish obstinacie your méekenes is haughtinesse in despising God You haue forgottē what the Lord saith In vaine doe they worship me Esay 29. Matth. 15. teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Pa. VVhere learne you to giue such rayling sentence against the deuotion of holy men and to iudge Ye boast of the Gospell ye haue nothing els in your mouth and yet the Gospell willeth ye not for to iudge This doth declare what spirit ye are led with Pro. If your Romish rowte were holy deuoute men then no doubt wee should be found to giue rayling sentence and if the holy scriptures did not warrant vs so to speake of those which are open enemies to GOD then wée might iustly be blamed or if wee should enter so far as to iudge of the secrets of mens harts not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement then were wee to be condemned but séeing the word doth teach that which we vtter wee neither giue rayling sentence neither doe wee iudge otherwise then to pronounce out of Gods trueth what is holy and what is wicked and abominable Pa. Proue those things which you haue said out of the word as that good intents are not pleasing to God that when men are deuout and take paines to serue God it is diuelish and other such like and I wil be your bondman while I liue Pro. Good intents doe please God God doth require that men should be deuoute and take paines to serue him and vnlesse these things bee in them they are not his seruants But yours are no good intents but phantasies of your owne braine for they procéede not of faith because they bee not ordered by Gods word Rom. 14. but against the word and whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Your worship being not framed after the will of God but procéeding from your owne liking is no more but blinde deuotion when ye haue taken all the paines ye can and haue wearied your selues this shall bee your reward Esay 1. Who required these things at your hands Who did set ye a worke and appoynt ye this seruice As concerning such kinde of worship as yours the Apostle doth call it will-worship for when he hath spoken of commandements and doctrines of men he addeth thus Colos 2. Which things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntarie worship and humblenesse of minde and not sparing the bodie which things are of no estimation séeing they pertaine to the filling of the flesh This place of Saint Paul well obserued doth fully and cléerely without any exposition quite ouerthrow all your Popish religion For he sheweth that before GOD all such trash is of no estimation Againe his description doth so fitly paynt out Poperie and that which you bragge of as nothing can bee more apt Marke well euery branch and member of his words and ye will confesse the same He demaundeth of the Colossians how it commeth to passe that if they be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world that they bee burdened with traditions Colos 1. as touch not taste not c. Which things perish in their vse and therefore this conclusion is to bée drawne out that the eternall and spirituall kingdome of GOD doth not consist in such things For how should the kingdome of God consist in those things which perish Pa. Ye would make somewhat of nothing that place of S. Paul is not against vs. If yee haue none other ye cannot ouerthrow our religion Pro. Ye doe interrupt me in the middest of my matter onely to cauill because ye are loth to haue this place of scripture touched seeing it doth so fully open and display your wardes Because ye say it maketh not against ye and would faine passe from it I will leade ye to it by the eares Doth not your religion stand in outward things which perish in their vse Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men Let all the world iudge of that And Saint Paul doth make that a sufficient reason to ouerthrow any thing whatsoeuer in the seruice of God If it bee of man the holy Ghost would haue vs make no further inquisition but to take it for dung and draugh how goodly soeuer it séeme and glister as gold Esay 29. Matth. 15. Doth not the Lord also say In vaine doe they worship me teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Well to goe forward these deuises of yours are marueilously well liked and the people of the world are made very deuoute towards God by them indéede the people of the world doe like well such religion and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuotion to estéeme such matters to haue great wisedome in them Therefore the Apostle doth say that those inuentions of men haue a shew of wisedome and the people vse to say I warrant ye our fathers which deuised these things were wise men But marke well the causes which the Lord doth set downe why these things séeme to haue such wisedome and why they be so well liked of The first cause is that it is a voluntary religion a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men is very well pleasing to the deuisers and doth also fit other men whose wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs For as that which procéedeth from the will of God is contrary to the wisedome of flesh and therefore misliked and condemned of folly so that which commeth out of mans will is agréeable to man and therefore approued and commended as the onely wisedome Thus may we sée when the Apostle saith such things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntary religion how it commeth to passe that the worship which is set by the policie and inuention of men is better accepted of then that which procéedeth from the will of God Pa. Ye haue enough of that place vnlesse ye would expound it more truly there are manie scriptures which make for your purpose if ye may haue this scope to take them as ye lust Leaue off your vaine heape of words with which ye goe about to bleare mens eyes and to draw and wrest the Scriptures to your owne sense It were much better for ye to meddle lesse Pro. All men may easily see that this place of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone no marueile therefore though ye haue enough of it for lesse would better content ye There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpose without any wresting at all Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with néedeth no wresting to make it speake against you when as euery blind man which cannot sée may yet by groping féele the
wee condemne it and hate it more then you do And although ye goe about to abuse and wrest the scriptures against vs yet ye shall neuer bee able to driue any true Catholike from the right pure and deuout worship of God Pro. Will ye confesse if I proue that you are Idolaters that yours is the false Church and that ye are fallen away from the trueth that the Pope is Antichrist Pa. I must needes confesse that Idolaters are fallen from the trueth but where as ye make offer to proue that we commit Idolatrie I say still wee be the furthest frō it of all other And in this I think my selfe sufficiently armed to stand against all the heretikes in the world proue what ye can Pro. Al those which worship idols are condemned in the holy Scriptures to be idolaters But it seemeth you Papists doe not worship idols at least ye would beare men in hand ye doe not when as in very déede ye doe it in most shamefull maner Where hath it euer béene heard of that men haue more doted vpō stocks and stones then the Papists Wil ye stil then be past shame and say you hate idolatrie you are furthest from it of all other Pa. I say still and neede not be ashamed that it is the blindnesse of you heretikes which either cannot or will not see that ours is no Idolatrie This sin of Idolatrie is where they worship Idols wee haue images of the true God of the blessed Virgin of the Apostles and of other Saints wee haue no idols of feined and false Gods wee worship not the images themselues neither but the things which are by them represented Moreouer we doe not giue latria to the images of Saints but dulia which God in the scriptures doth neuer condemne I say therefore ye helpe vs when ye say we worship stocks and stones or that we worship any besides the true God You are the idolaters your selues Pro. You would faine purge and cléere your selues from idolatrie and therefore ye haue deuised these distinctions first ye would make a difference betwéene Idoll and Image yours are Images but not Idols Secondly ye shift the matter that ye do not worship the Images themselues but that which the Image doth put ye in minde of And last of all your déepe distinction betwéene latria which is worship which ye giue onely to God and dulia which is seruice which ye bestow vpon the Saints I will lay open how vaine these things are and yet how they be subtill to deceiue poore ignorant soules Pa. I know your answers well enough ye take vpon ye to defend that an Idoll and an Image are all one And so when it is said God made man after his owne Image yee may translate it after his owne Idoll It may be said of the picture image of the prince this is the princes Idoll Likewise if a painter paint an image of a dog ye may say this is an Idoll of a dog Ah Sirs this is ouer grosse ye shew by this what your skill is in other things Pro. Now must ye néeds win the spurres because wee say that Image and Idoll is all one sauing that the one is Greeke and the other Latin Ye say thē we must say God made man after his owne Idoll which were very grosse I confesse that in our tongue it were grosse indéed because the word Idoll is by common vse of spéech taken alwaies in euill part but in the Gréeke tongue it was not so But I will come néerer vnto ye to shew your deceitfull dealing in this shall wee desire a better iudge in this matter then the Hebrew tongue in the scriptures in which it is said that God made man after his owne image and in which there is much spoken of idols What if I proue that hee vseth the same word where hee speaketh of idols which he vseth where hee saith God made man after his owne image Will there then be such a difference Pa. When I see this then I will beleeue it before I will not the Scriptures do speake of images it may be there is the same word But you must proue it where hee doth speake it of those which were idols indeed of the heathen of false gods Pro. I wil shew where he speaketh of idols indéed which were worshipped by the heathē and proue that he vseth the same word The word in Moses is Tselem after which Adam was created Gen. 1. Now looke where hee speaketh to the children of Israel by Moses to command them to break down the idols of the heathen and ye shall finde the same word As Numb 33. He saith ye shall destroy Tsalme Massecotham that is their moulten images In the 2. booke of Kings chap. 11. it is said They went into the house of Baal and brake downe his images which he calleth by the same name By this it doth appeare that in the holy scriptures there is no such difference betwéene idol and image as the Papists would beare men in hand For these were idols by their owne confession which yet are set forth vnder that same word which Moses vseth for the likenes of God after which man was created Pa. All this doth proue nothing for wee doe grant that which ye haue said Because idols be also images although euery picture and image bee not an idol for an idol is an image which is worshipped and taken to be God Pro. It doth proue this for which I did alleage it that the same word is in that tongue vsed indifferently for the image of GOD and for the idols of the heathen But because ye say it doth proue nothing séeing idols be images although euery image is not by and by an idol vnlesse it be worshipped Let me demand this Is not that which is forbidden to bee made in the Scriptures an idoll Pa. I know no man which doth deny but that is an idoll which the Scriptures do forbid But you must go further then that for ye must proue that those which the Scripture doth forbid are but called images and so images and idols to be all one Pro. Ye say right for those which the scripture condemneth we must cōfesse to be idols then if I proue that the scripture doth condēne images it must néeds follow that they be idols I require no more for it is manifest that the Scripture doth forbid all images of God as in Deuterono 4. there is forbidden not onely Semel but also Temnuah and Tabnith And in Esay 40. Demuth Who will bee so mad as to deny but that here are images forbidden and therefore that images are idols Pa. I see no cause why I should not deny it for they were also idols because they were made to be worshipped Pro. I sée no cause why I may not estéeme you to be obstinatly blinded Because in these places which I haue cited he doth not onely speake of the true GOD but also the reasons which are set downe