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scripture_n apostle_n know_v tradition_n 2,265 5 9.2963 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A69535 The grand debate between the most reverend bishops and the Presbyterian divines appointed by His Sacred Majesty as commissioners for the review and alteration of the Book of common prayer, &c. : being an exact account of their whole proceedings : the most perfect copy. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.; Commission for the Review and Alteration of the Book of Common Prayer. 1661 (1661) Wing B1278A; Wing E3841; ESTC R7198 132,164 165

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most_o certain_a that_o very_o many_o marry_a person_n be_v unfit_a for_o the_o lord_n supper_n and_o will_v be_v when_o you_o and_o we_o have_v do_v our_o best_a and_o be_v it_o fit_a then_o to_o compel_v they_o to_o it_o but_o the_o more_o unexpected_a the_o more_o welcome_a be_v your_o motion_n of_o that_o more_o christian_a course_n of_o suppress_v of_o licentious_a festivity_n when_o shall_v we_o see_v such_o reformation_n undertake_v visitation_n of_o the_o sick_a for_o as_o much_o as_o the_o condition_n etc._n etc._n all_o which_o be_v here_o desire_a be_v already_o 1_o presume_v namely_o that_o the_o minister_n shall_v apply_v himself_o to_o the_o particular_a condition_n of_o the_o person_n but_o this_o must_v be_v do_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o prudence_n and_o justice_n and_o not_o according_a to_o his_o pleasure_n therefore_o if_o the_o sick_a person_n show_v himself_o true_o penitent_a it_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v leave_v
we_o desire_v no_o other_o rule_n to_o decide_v the_o controversy_n by_o as_o to_o your_o citation_n 1_o socrat._v there_o tell_v we_o of_o the_o alternate_a sing_n of_o the_o aruians_n in_o the_o reproach_n of_o the_o orthodox_n and_o that_o chrysostome_n not_o a_o synod_n compile_v hymn_n to_o be_v sing_v in_o opposition_n to_o they_o in_o the_o street_n which_o come_v in_o the_o end_n to_o a_o tumult_n and_o bloodshed_n and_o hereupon_o he_o tell_v we_o of_o the_o original_n of_o alternate_a sing_n viz._n a_o pretend_a vision_n of_o ignatius_n that_o hear_v angel_n sing_v in_o that_o order_n and_o what_o be_v all_o this_o to_o alternate_a read_n and_o pray_v or_o to_o a_o divine_a institution_n when_o here_o be_v no_o mention_n of_o read_v or_o pray_v but_o of_o sing_v hymn_n and_o that_o not_o upon_o pretence_n of_o apostolical_a tradition_n but_o a_o vision_n of_o uncertain_a credit_n theodor._n also_o speak_v only_o of_o sing_v psalm_n alternate_o and_o not_o a_o word_n of_o 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liturgy_n which_o so_o much_o 1_o we_o seem_v to_o countenance_v the_o observation_n of_o lent_n as_o a_o religious_a fast_o and_o this_o as_o a_o expedient_a to_o peace_n which_o be_v in_o effect_n to_o desire_v that_o this_o our_o church_n may_v be_v contentious_a for_o peace_n sake_n and_o to_o divide_v from_o the_o church_n catholic_n that_o we_o may_v live_v at_o unity_n among_o ourselves_o for_o saint_n paul_n reckon_v they_o among_o the_o lover_n of_o contention_n who_o shall_v oppose_v themselves_o against_o the_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n of_o god_n that_o the_o religious_a observation_n of_o lent_n be_v a_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n of_o god_n appear_v by_o the_o testimony_n follow_v chrysost_n ser._n 11._o in_o heb._n 10._o cyrill_n catec_fw-la mist_n 5._o st._n august_n ep._n 119._o ut_fw-la 40._o dies_fw-la ante_fw-la pascha_fw-la observetur_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la consuetudo_fw-la roboravit_fw-la and_o st._n hierom_n ad_fw-la marcell_n say_v it_o be_v secundum_fw-la 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not_o have_v think_v we_o wrong_v the_o church_n if_o the_o pure_a time_n of_o the_o church_n have_v one_o custom_n and_o late_a time_n a_o contrary_a which_o must_v we_o follow_v or_o must_v we_o necessary_o be_v contentious_a for_o not_o follow_v both_o or_o rather_o may_v we_o not_o by_o the_o example_n of_o the_o church_n that_o change_v they_o be_v allow_v to_o take_v such_o thing_n to_o be_v matter_n of_o liberty_n and_o not_o necessity_n if_o we_o must_v needs_o conform_v to_o the_o custom_n of_o other_o church_n in_o such_o thing_n or_o be_v contentious_a it_o be_v either_o because_o god_n have_v so_o command_v or_o because_o he_o have_v give_v those_o church_n authority_n to_o command_v it_o if_o the_o former_a than_o what_o church_n or_o what_o age_n must_v we_o conform_v to_o if_o all_o must_v concur_v to_o be_v our_o pattern_n it_o will_v be_v hard_a for_o we_o to_o be_v acquaint_v with_o they_o so_o far_o as_o to_o know_v of_o such_o concurrence_n and_o in_o our_o case_n we_o know_v that_o many_o do_v it_o not_o if_o it_o must_v be_v the_o most_o we_o will_v know_v where_o god_n command_v we_o to_o imitate_v the_o great_a number_n though_o the_o worse_o or_o have_v secure_v we_o that_o they_o shall_v not_o be_v the_o worst_a or_o why_o we_o be_v not_o tie_v rather_o to_o imitate_v the_o pure_a age_n than_o the_o more_o corrupt_a if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o the_o church_n have_v authority_n to_o command_v we_o we_o desire_v to_o know_v what_o church_n that_o be_v and_o where_o to_o be_v find_v and_o hear_v that_o may_v command_v england_n and_o all_o the_o church_n of_o his_o majesty_n dominion_n if_o it_o be_v say_v to_o be_v a_o general_n council_n 1._o no_o general_n council_n can_v pretend_v to_o more_o authority_n than_o that_o of_o nice_n who_o 20_o canon_n back_v with_o tradition_n and_o common_a pratice_fw-la now_o bind_v not_o we_o and_o be_v lay_v by_o without_o any_o repeal_n by_o follow_v council_n 2._o we_o know_v of_o no_o such_o thing_n 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be_v not_o govern_v with_o the_o spirit_n and_o word_n of_o god_n they_o may_v err_v and_o sometime_o have_v err_v even_o in_o thing_n pertain_v unto_o god_n therefore_o thing_n ordain_v by_o they_o as_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n have_v neither_o strength_n nor_o authority_n unless_o it_o may_v be_v declare_v that_o they_o be_v take_v out_o of_o the_o holy_a scripture_n and_o if_o they_o may_v err_v in_o thing_n pertain_v unto_o god_n and_o ordain_v by_o they_o as_o necessary_a to_o salvation_n much_o more_o in_o lesser_a thing_n and_o be_v we_o contentious_a if_o we_o err_v not_o with_o they_o our_o 39_o article_n determine_v this_o controversy_n say_v it_o be_v not_o necessary_a that_o tradition_n and_o ceremony_n be_v in_o all_o place_n one_o or_o utter_o like_a for_o at_o all_o time_n they_o have_v
in_o this_o church_n and_o nation_n occasion_v sad_a division_n betwixt_o minister_n &_o minister_n betwixt_o minister_n and_o people_n expose_v many_o 1_o orthodox_n preacher_n to_o the_o displeasure_n of_o ruler_n and_o no_o other_o fruit_n than_o these_o can_v be_v look_v for_o from_o the_o retain_v these_o ceremony_n repl._n we_o have_v rather_o you_o have_v take_v our_o reason_n as_o we_o lay_v they_o down_o than_o to_o have_v so_o alter_v they_o ergo_fw-la have_v tell_v you_o that_o some_o hold_v they_o unlawful_a and_o other_o inconvenient_a etc._n etc._n and_o desire_v that_o they_o may_v not_o be_v impose_v on_o such_o who_o judge_v such_o imposition_n a_o violation_n of_o the_o royalty_n of_o christ_n etc._n etc._n you_o seem_v to_o take_v this_o as_o our_o own_o sense_n and_o that_o of_o all_o the_o ceremony_n of_o which_o we_o there_o make_v no_o mention_n you_o refer_v we_o to_o hooker_n since_o who_o write_n aim_n in_o his_o fresh_a suit_n and_o bradshaw_n and_o parker_n and_o many_o other_o have_v write_v that_o against_o the_o ceremony_n that_o never_o be_v answer_v that_o we_o know_v of_o but_o deserve_v your_o consideration_n before_o we_o give_v particular_a answer_n to_o these_o several_a reason_n it_o 1._o will_v not_o be_v unnecessary_a to_o lay_v down_o some_o certain_a general_a premise_n or_o rule_n which_o will_v be_v useful_a in_o our_o whole_a discourse_n 1._o that_o god_n have_v not_o give_v a_o power_n only_o but_o a_o command_n also_o of_o impose_v whatsoever_o shall_v be_v true_o decent_a and_o become_v his_o public_a service_n 1_o cor._n 14._o after_o st_n paul_n have_v order_v some_o particular_a rule_n for_o pray_v praise_v prophesy_v etc._n etc._n he_o conclude_v with_o this_o general_a canon_n let_v all_o thing_n be_v do_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o a_o fit_a scheme_n habit_n or_o fashion_v decent_o and_o that_o there_o may_v be_v uniformity_n in_o those_o decent_a performance_n let_v there_o be_v a_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d rule_n or_o canon_n for_o that_o purpose_n repl._n as_o to_o your_o first_o rule_n we_o answer_v 1._o it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o impose_v in_o general_n that_o all_o be_v do_v decent_o and_o in_o order_n this_o god_n himself_o have_v impose_v by_o his_o apostle_n and_o it_o be_v another_o thing_n to_o impose_v in_o particular_a that_o this_o or_o that_o be_v use_v as_o decent_a and_o orderly_a concern_v this_o we_o add_v it_o be_v in_o the_o text_n say_v let_v it_o be_v do_v but_o not_o let_v it_o be_v impose_v yet_o from_o other_o scripture_n we_o doubt_v not_o but_o circumstance_n of_o mere_a decency_n &_o order_n as_o determine_v time_n place_n utensil_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v common_a to_o thing_n civil_a and_o sacred_a though_o not_o the_o symbolical_a ceremony_n which_o afterward_o we_o confute_v may_v be_v impose_v with_o the_o necessary_a caution_n and_o limitation_n afterward_o lay_v down_o but_o 1._o that_o if_o any_o usurper_n will_v pretend_v a_o power_n from_o christ_n to_o impose_v such_o thing_n on_o the_o church_n though_o the_o thing_n be_v lawful_a we_o must_v take_v heed_n how_o we_o acknowledge_v a_o usurp_a power_n by_o formal_a obedience_n 2._o a_o just_a power_n may_v impose_v they_o but_o to_o just_a end_n as_o the_o preservation_n and_o success_n of_o the_o modified_a worship_n or_o ordinance_n and_o if_o they_o real_o conduce_v not_o to_o those_o end_n they_o sin_n in_o impose_v they_o 3._o yet_o the_o subject_n be_v bind_v to_o obey_v a_o true_a authority_n in_o such_o imposition_n where_o the_o matter_n belong_v to_o the_o cognizance_n and_o office_n of_o the_o ruler_n and_o where_o the_o mistake_n be_v not_o so_o great_a as_o to_o bring_v great_a mischief_n to_o the_o church_n than_o the_o suspending_a of_o our_o active_a obedience_n will_v do_v 4._o but_o if_o these_o thing_n be_v determine_v under_o pretence_n of_o order_n and_o decency_n to_o the_o plain_a destruction_n of_o the_o ordinance_n modify_v and_o of_o the_o intend_a end_n they_o cease_v to_o be_v mean_n and_o we_o must_v not_o use_v they_o 5._o or_o if_o under_o the_o name_n of_o thing_n decent_a and_o of_o order_n man_n will_v meddle_v with_o thing_n that_o belong_v not_o to_o their_o office_n as_o to_o institute_v a_o new_a worship_n for_o god_n new_a sacrament_n or_o any_o thing_n forbid_v in_o the_o general_a prohibition_n of_o add_v or_o diminish_v this_o be_v a_o usurpation_n and_o not_o a_o act_n of_o authority_n and_o we_o be_v bind_v in_o obedience_n to_o god_n to_o disobey_v they_o 6._o where_o governor_n may_v command_v at_o set_a time_n and_o by_o proportionable_a penalty_n enforce_v if_o they_o command_v when_o it_o will_v destroy_v the_o end_n or_o enforce_v by_o such_o penalty_n as_o destroy_v or_o cross_v it_o they_o great_o sin_n by_o such_o command_n thus_o we_o have_v more_o distinct_o give_v you_o our_o sense_n about_o the_o matter_n of_o your_o first_o rule_n not_o inferior_n but_o superior_n must_v judge_v what_o be_v convenient_a and_o 2._o decent_a they_o who_o must_v order_v that_o all_o be_v do_v decent_o must_v of_o necessity_n first_o judge_v what_o be_v convenient_a and_o decent_a to_o be_v order_v repl._n your_o second_o rule_n also_o be_v too_o crude_o deliver_v and_o therefore_o we_o must_v add_v 1._o a_o judgement_n be_v a_o sentence_n in_o order_n to_o some_o execution_n and_o judgement_n be_v specify_v from_o the_o end_n to_o which_o they_o be_v such_o mean_n when_o the_o question_n be_v either_o what_o law_n shall_v be_v make_v or_o what_o penalty_n shall_v be_v exercise_v the_o magistrate_n be_v the_o only_a judge_n and_o not_o the_o bishop_n or_o other_o subject_a in_o the_o first_o he_o exercise_v his_o judicium_fw-la discretionis_fw-la in_o order_n to_o a_o public_a act._n in_o the_o second_o he_o exercise_v a_o public_a judgement_n when_o the_o question_n be_v what_o order_n pro_fw-la tempore_fw-la be_v fit_a in_o circumstantial_o for_o this_o present_a congregation_n the_o proper_a presbyter_n or_o pastor_n of_o that_o congregation_n be_v the_o directive_n judge_n by_o god_n appointment_n 3._o the_o magistrate_n be_v ruler_n of_o these_o pastor_n as_o he_o be_v of_o physician_n pailosopher_n and_o other_o subject_n he_o may_v make_v they_o such_o general_a rule_n especial_o for_o restraint_n to_o go_v by_o as_o may_v not_o destroy_v the_o exercise_n of_o their_o own_o pastoral_n power_n as_o he_o may_v forbid_v a_o physician_n to_o use_v some_o dangerous_a medicine_n on_o his_o subject_n and_o may_v punish_v he_o when_o he_o wilful_o kill_v any_o of_o they_o but_o may_v not_o on_o that_o presence_n appoint_v he_o what_o and_o how_o and_o when_o and_o to_o who_o he_o shall_v administer_v and_o so_o become_v physician_n himself_o alone_o 4._o when_o the_o question_n be_v who_o shall_v be_v exclude_v from_o the_o communion_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n the_o pastor_n of_o the_o church_n or_o congregation_n be_v the_o first_o proper_a judge_n 5._o when_o the_o question_n be_v who_o shall_v be_v exclude_v from_o or_o receive_v into_o the_o communion_n of_o all_o the_o associate_v church_n of_o which_o we_o be_v natural_o capable_a of_o communion_n the_o associate_v pastor_n or_o bishop_n of_o these_o church_n in_o synod_n be_v judg●●_n beyond_o this_o there_o be_v no_o judge_n 6._o when_o the_o question_n be_v whether_o the_o law_n of_o magistrate_n or_o canon_n of_o bishop_n be_v agreeable_a or_o not_o to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o so_o the_o obedience_n be_v lawful_a or_o unlawful_a the_o conscience_n of_o each_o individual_a subject_n be_v the_o judge_n per_fw-la judicium_fw-la discretionis_fw-la as_o to_o his_o own_o practice_n and_o if_o man_n have_v not_o this_o judgement_n of_o discern_v but_o must_v act_v upon_o absolute_a implicit_a obedience_n than_o first_o man_n be_v rule_v as_o unreasonable_a second_o the_o magistrate_n be_v make_v a_o god_n or_o such_o a_o leviathan_n as_o hobbs_n describe_v he_o three_o and_o then_o all_o sin_n may_v lawful_o be_v commit_v if_o command_v but_o we_o be_v assure_v none_o of_o this_o your_o sense_n these_o rule_n and_o canon_n for_o decency_n make_v and_o urge_v by_o superior_n 3._o be_v to_o be_v obey_v by_o inferior_n till_o it_o be_v make_v as_o clear_v that_o now_o they_o be_v not_o bind_v to_o obey_v as_o it_o be_v evident_a in_o general_n that_o they_o ought_v to_o obey_v superior_n for_o if_o the_o exemption_n from_o obedience_n be_v not_o 13._o as_o evident_a as_o the_o command_n to_o obey_v it_o must_v needs_o be_v sin_n not_o to_o obey_v repl._n to_o your_o three_o rule_n we_o add_v it_o be_v first_o considerable_a what_o the_o thing_n be_v and_o then_o how_o it_o be_v apprehend_v if_o it_o be_v real_o lawful_a and_o well_o command_v and_o to_o be_v obey_v it_o be_v no_o ignorance_n doubt_n or_o error_n of_o the_o