then one or two Relations yet in the descending from the superiour to the inferiour there might appeâ—re a shew of likelyhod But this Logike passeth in deede for it is M. Iewels that Paulinus whiche was borne three hundred yeres after Ireneus vseth the worde principalis in this sense Ergo Principalitas of which Ireneus speaketh stoode not in the Bishope that professed Christe but in the Emperour that was an heathen Thus thou maise see Indifferent Reader what fowle shifts and deuises and lyes M. Iewel had made to turne awaie the Authoritie of Ireneus that it should not be taken for the Principalitie of the Church of Rome But his conclusion is notable To be shorte saieth he If the Church of Rome would nowe faithfully keepe the Traditions and Doctrine of the Apostles we would fraÌ„kely yeld her all that honour that Ireneus geueth her but she hath shaken of the yoke of Christ. O good men It was then by likelihod for pure loue of God and godlines that you are departed from the See of Rome There were so fewe Sacramentes and those of so litle effecte there was so litle Fasting Watching Praying so litle chastitie Discipline and Order that you could not abyde to lyue so loosely but would needes take an yoke vpon you to keepe your bodies low by carying your yokeâ—elowes about the Countries with you beâ—ides other burdens And to keepe your spirits humble by obeying neither spiritual nor temporal Iurisâ—iction For the Saxons in Germanie the Hugonots in France the Guses in Flaunders and Brabant which of late because the yoke was not heauie inough vpoÌ„ their shoulders haue I can not tel for what penaÌ„ce sake made themselues great fardels and packes of Church goodes and sweate againe with the carriage of them awaie were not they and are not these Cusson germans vnto you But you wil do more for Christs sake than this You wil be content I perceaue to go euen to Rome it selfe vpon certaine conditions And what are they Forsoth if y â— church of Rome would keepe the Traditions doctrine of the Apostles then â—o you wold frankly honour it And is this possible Traditions you knowe are verities and orders not written in the Scriptures but deliuered without writing And is there any thing which you wil fâ—ankely beare except it be writen in expresse Scriptures Surely I can 〈◊〉 beleue it yet if ye would vpon conditions geue y â— honour to the Church of Rome which S. Ireneus absolutely gaue without any such cautels you are not so vnlike to be a Papist as I thought you were For let vs suppose it that as you would with so al the Traditions and Doctrine of the Apostles were faithfully kept in Rome would ye frankly yeld her al honour that Ireneus geueth her â—elme then if 〈…〉 or any other Heretikes would deuise 〈◊〉 of their owne trouble the Church of England with them wold ye go to Rome for the mater and aske of the Ciuile Estate there â–ª Or the Emperor if he were a heathen Or of the persequutours or Ennemies of the Church yf such felowes had dominion there wold ye aske of them what should be thought of the Olde Heretiques newly vpstarted Yf ye would go to them that haue no Religion to 〈◊〉 counsel of them about For concerning plaine beâ—â—sies we are now so accustomed to read them heare them that thei are not straunge vâ—to vs but when hypocrisie is ioyned with heresie Or wheÌ„ veritie is disseÌ„bled through â—eare or 〈◊〉 there we are desirous to haue the partie examined And conâ—â—reâ—ned either â—laâ—â—ly to confesse his hereâ—â—e Or faithfully to stand with y â— veritie Shortly therfore to you M. Iewel Yf you would honour the Church of Rome in like sorte as S. Iraeneus chargeth al the faithful to doe how 〈◊〉 ye geue to the â—â—nges of England and that by the â—â—â—esse â—criptures as you interprete them such Supremacie in maters eccleâ—â—â—â—ical as can not stand possibly with the going to Rome in any question of Faith For by Aet of Parlement and your owne othâ—â— and the practise of the Realme there is no 〈◊〉 power that hath to do with the Church of England And therefore were Rome neuer so perâ—â—â—â— no greatâ—r Principalitie could be attributed to the Church of Rome than the â—ing of England hath whom you byhold to be 〈…〉 On the other side if ye wil defend stil that which hitherto ye haue set â—â—rth by Lawes Othes Sermons 〈…〉 c. What an Hypocrite are you so to speake as though ye would as frankelie yeld to the Church of Rome principal honour as â—renâ—us both earâ—estly require it that for the 〈…〉 al Churches 〈◊〉 for trial of true doctrine resorte vnto it 〈…〉 you of these daies haue them in coÌ„tempt dishonour therfore you speak of no more then y â— TeÌ„ples built in their remembraÌ„ce And yet this very building of Temples in the honour of Martyrs it seemeth not that you like very wel wheras vnto any one of your so stinking a cuÌ„pany of Martyrs we hearâ— of no groâ—nd y â— you haue meatâ—â— out as yeâ— to laiâ— therein y ◠〈◊〉 of any Pulpit House or 〈◊〉 of your Champions Now to the sense of S. 〈◊〉 wordes Vvhy do they not goe to the Marâ—â—â— Vvhy 〈◊〉 they not to the Church That is â–ª as you M. Iewel vnderstand him 〈◊〉 Receiue they at home and not at Church But this is not S. Hieroms meaning For he reproueth not their Receiuing at home but their Receiuing at home the next day that folowed their nightes pleasure taking of their Wiues Marke that Circumstance and you shal quickly perceiue that you are deceiued or haue deceiued For take the whole Sentence with you I knovv saith S. Hierome â—hat this Custome is in Rome that the faithful do receiue daily the Body of Christ. And what say you than to that Custome He Answereth Qâ—â—d nec reprehend◠〈…〉 which thinge I neither reproue nor alowe for euery man abundeth in his owne sense What shal we say then to this case If a man be sufficiently prepared and 〈◊〉 the SacrameÌ„t in his owne house at home and neuer goe to the 〈…〉 for it perteyned not to the question of 〈…〉 of which he there consâ—â—eth Yet M. Iewel thinketh that S. Hierome Answereth this foresaied question and that he maketh a ful determination thereof with an ernest reprouf of the parties offending against it As if S. Hierom should say to the Romaiâ—ts what meane you to doubt in this plaine mater Or why should ye thinke that Receauing at home were lawfull Do ye not know that the Lordes supper is â— Communion and must not be taken of one alone Why dare ye not goe to the Temples of the Martyrs â–ª Are ye afraied of 〈◊〉 Why goe ye not to the Church Is not that the proper place to Receaue the Communion in Such a Comment would M. Iewel make vpon
the Canons of Auncient Councels But as I doe grauÌ„t vnto you that the Councel of Laâ—dicea hath that such only bookes as are of the old new TestameÌ„t should be readen in the Church so that y â— like also is declared as you boldly say in the Councel of Carthage it is so manifestly vntrue y â— it may not be suffered For these are the verie wordes of the Councel Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas â—ihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine Diuinarum Scripturarum that is Vve like it also that nothing besides the Canonical Scriptures be readen in the Church in the name of the Diuine Scriptures The Councel therefore forbiddeth not other things bysides the Canonical scriptures to be readen in the Church but it prouideth that nothing be readen there as in the name of Scripture which is not true Scripture in dede And this appeereth most euidently by other wordes which folowe in the selfe same Canon where it is sayed Liceat etiam legi Passiones Martyrum Cum Anniuersarij eoruÌ„ celebrantur Be it lauful also to haue the Passions of Martyrs readen vvhen their yerely Daies are celebrated and kept holy By this it is most euident that other thinges bysydes the Canonicall Scriptures as the Passions of Martyrs such vndoutedly as we haue for a great part in the Legends of the Church were permitted to be readen in the publike Seruice And that M. Iewels comparison that the Lessons then read in y â— Church were taken out of y â— holy Bible ONLY as he meneth as it is now vsed in the church of England hath no agreablenes and Proportion For whâ—t one Martyr is there in al the whole booke of the Common praier of England S. Sâ—euen only excepted which hath any Festiual day appointed out for him or any storie of his Passion declared But like perfite Diuines you wil no other thing but Scripture onely readen in your Churches in which pointe you would be seene to follow the Councel of Carthage You deceaue the people by your glorious lying The Counâ—â—l of Carthage as you perceiue by the wordes which I haue alleged alloweth not onely Caâ—onical Scriptures but Martyrs Passions also to be Readen in the Church Why say you then so impudentlie that it it was there Decreed that nothing should be read y â— Church vnto the People sauing onely the Canonical Scriptures I aske of you also where the Passions â—f those Martyrs are which at the beginninge had their Holidaies in the Churche And should to this daie haue them if as you doe chalenge it you were of the holie and Catholike Church S. Clement Cornelius Cyprian â—istus Lawrence Uincent Sebastiane and other whom the whole world honoreth what solemme Feastes haue you of them or what Lessons and Homilies are Readen in your Churches of their Passions Were there no Martyrs in the world after the Apostles were once departed this lyfe Or know you any more excellent than these whome I haue named Or haue you no mynde or affection to any of them Or haue you spied a Canon in the Councel of Carthage that nothing but Canonical Scriptures shal be readen in the Church And could you noâ— see the plaine Exception which is straite waies in the same Canon made against it that notwithstanding the former wordes the passions of martyrs should be readeÌ„ in the Church when their yerelie daies are celebrated But of the beggarlines of this new Religion â–ª and how it is altogether dâ—stituted of Martyrs Confessors â–ª Uirgiâ—s of all kinde of Sainctes it is to be spoken at more leasure in the meane tyme this I leaâ—â— most euidentlie proued thâ—â— M. Iewel hath abused Councels How M. Iewel hath abused the Decrees of the Canon Lawe THere is smal hope that he whiche dareth wrest Beliâ— and Peruerte Councels wil spare to vse al Losenesse and Libertie in squaring oâ— Decrees and Decretals to his purpose And manie will thinke on the other side that M. Iewel is so honest and good of nature that he would not no noâ— of the diuell himselfe if he might winne â—ny thing by lying and muchlesse in the cause of God his true Religion reporte any thing of any man that euer yet wrote otherwyse ther â–ª the Trueth is and the wordes of the Author Examples then muste confirme my obiection emonge which this is one Fabianus sâ—â—â—th M. Iewel Bishop of Rome hath plainely decreed that the people should recâ—aue the Communion euery sondaie His wordes be plaine Decâ—rnimus c. We decree that euery sondaâ— the Oblation of the Aultare be made of al men and women both of bread and wine True it is that Fabianus willed such Oblations of bread and wine to be made and them to this end 〈◊〉 à peccatoruÌ„ suorum â—ascibus liberentur that the people might be deliuered of the burden of their sinnes But offering euerie Sonday and Receiuing euerie Sondaie are two thinges To prouide that the people should Offer Bread and Wine euerie Sondaie it was necessary because that is the proper mater of which the Sacrament of the Aultare is made and because the Clergie also liued then of the offerings of the people But to decree that al men and women should Receiue euâ—rie Sonday it is altogether vnreasonable that it should haue ben Fabianus mynde For in the verie same place there is an other Decree of his that men should Communicate thrise at the least if no oftener in a yere that is At Easier â—ittesoâ—â—ide and Chrisimasse except perchaunce some man be letted by anie kind of the grevous crimeâ— If then â—e required no more but that the people should Receaue thrise a yere how is it possible that by this decree of which M. Iewel speaketh and in which there is no mâ—ntion of the peoples receauing â—ut of their Offering only of Bread and Wine any charge should be laied vppon al men and womens consciencies to Receaue euery Sondaie Ye might as wel conclude that in euery parish of England thâ—re was some one or other of the laie people that Receaued alwaies on Sondaie in one kinde at the leaste with the Priest because an holy loafe as we cal it was Offered euery Sondaie But consider yet further Indifferent Reader how finely and properly M. Iewel gathereth Argumentes out of Auncient Popes decrees He noteth out of the foresaied wordes not only that men and women Receaued euery Sondaie but also that they Offered bread and Wine euery Sondaie according to the Order of Melchisedech By which accompte so manie Priestes and Sacrificers were in the Church as were men and women that offered bread and wine Yea not only men and women that are of perfitte discreation but all the boâ—es and wenches of the Parishe may with litle charges be quickly within orders For as M. Iewel compteth there is no more in it but to Offer bread and wine to the Aultare and straitewaies al that doe so are
contention My questioâ—s are short and easy to be answered if you haue any Faith or Conscience at all As in Example Was there not a Church of God in the world when you were borne Did not the Greatnes Grauitie and Authoritie of Nations which were of it moue you to beleue Did the Inuisible and litle Congregation worke that effect in you If ye trusted the Catholike Church of your time in commending Christ vnto you and without her Commendatyon would not haue credited him can you with a safe conscieÌ„ce contemne the voice of the same Church And to colour your defection and Fleeing from it take holde fast of the first six hundred yeres only As though you could with all your witte iudge better what the Primitiue Church thought and beleued than the present Church which is of one Spirite wth the Primitiue c. But there is no Remedie vpon the first six hundred yeres M. Iewel ioyneth with vs And if any thing be longer than that measure he will none of it he hath sayed it ¶ How M. Iewel himselfe dothe vse the Testimonies of what so euer Age and wryter though he bind other to the first sixe hundred yeres only TO the first six hundred yeres cumpasse then we must be bound al against Reason and Conscience but what shall we doe when the standing in our right against the Aduersarie and the Refusing to encountre with him vpon his conditions shall be thought of some Iudges to be A Preiudice vnto our cause and A greate Argument that our hartes faile vs Dispute sayeth the Heretike wyth me vpon these questions whether the Publike Seruice in an vnknowen tongue Or Receiuing vnder one kinde Or Reseruing of the Sacrament in A Pix wyth A Canopie ouer it â–ª c. Was euer vsed in the Primitiue Church No Mary would I saie if it were to me only I will not Dispute with thee vpon theesâ— poyntes But if thy Hart and Learning serue thee make few wordes and Answer me from whence thou câ—mest Who sent thee What are their Names Where are their Sees What is their Succession What is their Authoritie In which pointes if thou satisfie me not only then in these few Articles which thou demaundest but in euery point and part of the Religion which thy Church aloweth I will be Faithfull and Obedient Dispute sayeth he againe vnto me on Munday come seuennight And before that Day cummeth he chaingeth his minde foure or fiue times with me First he will Dispute in Latine Then he will wryte his minde and speake nothing After that he wil haue the mater Reasoned in Englishe and wise men shal be Iudges And after that againe he will haue it done in the hearing of the people not by quicke Disputation but by Reading only the Argumentes out of a Booke If the Catholike Disagree in anye poynt and stand vpon it either stubburnesse either Mistrust of his Cause either some fault or other shal be layed vnto him And so were many greate and heighnous maters Obiected against S. Ambrose because he refused to haue the cause betwene himselfe and the Heretike Auxentius to be tried in the Consistorie of the Emperour before Secular Iudges And his Exception against the Place only and Audience was accompted an high and intolerable Treason In like maner You shall Dispute with me sayeth the Heretike and nothing shall serue you except it be in expresse Scripture If the Catholike refuse that Condition and allege an hundred Reasons and Authorities that we must beleâ—e the vnwriten veritie as wel as the writen And that the word and will of God is allwaies to be obeiâ—d whether it be deliuered vnto vs by Tradition or left vnto vs in Wryting Yet except he yeld at length all England shal ring of it That the Papistes will not be tried by the linely worde of God That they flee the light That they dare not commit their cause to the Scriptures To be short when M. Iewel now more Reasonably in deede than Some of his Masters or Felowes which will admit nothing but Scripture Yet heretically and stately inough proâ—oketh vs to ioine with him And chooseth his questions and excludeth all our Answers vnto them except they be taken iust out of the vâ— C. yeres after Christ although it be very vniustly required of him and A Catholike should neuer come into such bondage Or not alwaies condescend in these lesser pointes vnto A Protestant Yet if he striue long with him about it and stand in the Defence of the last nine hundred yeres alleaging many and them good causes wherefore the Testimonie and consent of so long time should be alowed the longer he striueth the worse shall he be esteemed for it and the ernest mainteining of euery Truth on his side shall goe in Print abrode for an Argument that in dede he hath no good right Be it so then The Catholike must let goe the vantage of ix C. yeres he must fight within that time and cumpasse that the Heretike prescribeth And although that naturally al men are more fauorable to them that are called in to the law than the suers and troblers of them and suffer the defendant whome worldly frindship cleane forsaketh to haue as much right as his cause will geaue him Yet let all thinges be forgoten which may commend the Catholikes and as M. Iewel hath appointed so let the first six hundred yeres only be considered and alowed But here now let me aske one Question As it not Reason like as our aduersarie prescribeth vnto vs the number and Terme of yeres out of which we must gather our Argumentes that so likewise he shuld not come against vs with any Testimony or Authority which were out of those apointed Limites and boundes of yeres If a Challenger shall say to the Partye whome he Prouoketh come let vs straite waies trie the mater betwene our selues in the plaine Fielde and bring thou thy Sword and Buckler as I will mine when they are agreed vpon the Time Place and kind of Weapon if the Challenger would against the others single sworde come with sword dager horse spere Dagge and what so euer defence or helpe he could get â—yside should he not be compted Awretched and Contentious and A glorious Iacke Bragger He that biddeth the combat seemeth to take himself for the better maÌ„ and to like his owne cause and quarell very wel how Ignominious then and Shamefull must it be vnto him not to fight vpon equall conditions with hys Aduersarie Reason you against me sayeth M. Iewel out of the first six hundred yeres only but I for all that will be at my libertie to vse any Testimonie out of the xv C. and odde yeres sens Christ. Which in very deede is as much to say as knele you here vpon one knee and Fight not out of this Circle which I make to you As for my selfe I will goe or run at my pleasure about you and take my vantage
Decree sâ—â—aitwaies it is blasphemie against the holy ghost to breake any of the holy Canons Such Hypocrits and wranglers and braggers Gospellers by whose meanes new Contentious and troubles are reised aâ—d coÌ„tinued in y â— world it is pitie to speake the least y â— euer they were admitted before thei were examined or that now stil they shoulde be credited aâ—â—er that they be detected How M â–ª Iewel allegeth to smal purposes such Authorities of Fathers as do plainly coÌ„found y â— procedings BUt what shal we say We are not Masters of other mens wils neither do we beleue that this creature man whom God hath made after his owne Image should lacke that power of his soule and gift of God which consisteth in free wil. If therfore men wil not Beware wheÌ„ they may what should we do I haue already declared in special chapiters such mater against M. Iewel that of al men that euer yet wrote there was neuer any of lesse Grauitie Sinceritie or CoÌ„science in his writing To him that hath a wil to saue his soule so much is sufficient to make him seke after better InstructioÌ„ To him that thinketh onely of Ciuile Policie or of Temporal life and liuing and wil not trouble his head with the euerlastingnes of the Soule and a worlde to come no Argumentes against M. Iewel can be sufficient But concerning them which would in sad earnest saue one and are not fully resolued that M. Iewel behaueth himself vnreasonablie wickedly may it please them to consider how he shal be yet better taken in his Hypocrisie To Antiquitie he appealeth And because he would be sene to deale plainly he apointeth out the first six hundred after Christ for trial of the mater Now when some witnesses of that time come against him he wil not yet allow them And yet when he hath taken them away from his Aduersarie him selfe for al that wil afterwards allege them And of these points we haue spokeÌ„ already but what may be added more to the discouering of his behaâ—iour Mary this much I can say proue more that such testimonies of Holy Fathers CouÌ„â—els as he bringeth in against the Catholiques do in the self same sentence y â— he allegeth geue a great wound to his ReligioÌ„ So greedy he is of troâ—bling y â— Catholikes peace that to make some of them shrinke as if in deede a blowe were coÌ„ming he is content him selfe to bring his owne cause into y â— danger that he y â— wil take the aduaÌ„tage may quikly so strike it y â— it wil neuer be good after And not only so but so litle fauored he is of Antiquitie y â— in veri mani places he cannot vtter the ful senteÌ„ce but it shal straitwaies be perceiued that y â— late procedings do impugne directly the orders practise and Religion that were vsed in the Primitiue Church As in Example M. Iewel thinking to destroy therby the Sole Receiuing of the Priest proueth it that in the Primitiue Church they which would not Communicate were bidde to auoide For It is Decreed saith he by the Canons of the Apostles that al faithful that enter into the Churche and 〈◊〉 are the Scriptures and do not continue out the prayers nor receiue the CoÌ„munion should be excoÌ„municate as men vvoorking the trouble aâ—d disorder of the Church Againe If thou be not vvorthy to receiue the Commmunion then arte thou not vvorthy to 〈◊〉 presâ—â—â— at the prayers Therfore M. Harding should driue his vnworthy people from the Churche and not suffer them to heare his Masse Let me aske you then one question M. Iewel Why do you constraine by feare of high displeasure â–ª Losse of goodes and imprisonment such as neuer were yet of your Religion to come into your CoÌ„gregations to receiue also w t you You woulde haue D. Harding to driue them out which are vnworthy by the authoritie of this saying of S. Chrysostom Should not you by the same reason cease to drawe them into your Congregation which are no brothers of your Religion D. Hard. gathering it of your Sermon that you should be of the mind to haue al the people to Receiue Or them y â— would not to be driuen out of the Church you cry out and say O M. Harding how long wil you thus wilfully peâ—uert the waies of the Lord You know this is neither the doctrine neither the practise of the Church Howebeit the Auncient Doctours haue both taught so and also practised the same Anacletus de Cons. dist 1. Episcopus Calixtus de cons. dist 2. Peracta But O M. Iewel why say you so Doe you confesse that auncient Fathers haue vsed it and yet dare you Proteste that your Church hath no such practise Where is your Reuerence now to the first six hundred after Christ Where is your bringing al thinges to the first Paterne I perceaue by this what your answere wil be to my question out of S. Chrysostome You wil plainely say that your Church foloweth him not And wherefore then doe you make out of him Rules to the present Churche whome your selfe wil not folowe in the selfsame sentence which you lay against vs O M. Iewell how long wil you Imperially alow and refuse the Authoritie of auncient Doctors al at wil and pleasure Lykewise to proue that which no maâ— denieth that in the primitiue Church the people dyd communicate with the priest M. Iewell declareth the maner of their assemblies saying out of Iustinus Martyr Before the end of our praiers 〈◊〉 kisse eche of vs one an other Then is ther brought vnto him that is the chief of the bretherne bread and a cup of Vvine and vvater mingled together Vvhich hauing receiued he praiseth God and geaueth thankes a good space And that done the vvhole people confirmeth this praier saieing Amen After that they that among â—s be called Deacons â–ª geue vnto euery of theÌ„ that be present part of the bread and likevvyse of the vvine and vvater that are consecrate vvith thankes geuing and ary he same home vnto them that happen to be absent Againe speakinge of the effect of the Sacrament by which we are made al one in Christ and all one emong our selues he allegeth S. Chrysostome Propterea in mysterijs c. For that cause in the tyme of the mysteries vve embrace one an other that being many vve may become one Againe speaking of the people receiuing of the Sacrament in their owne handes which is also a mater indifferent in it selfe he saieth to proue it I speake of him whose coâ—â—e of peace ye receiued at the ministration and at whose handes ye layed the Sacrament The Testimonies are of your owne bringing and therefore I would thinke of your owne alowing Where then is your mingling of wine and water together â–ª in your Mysteries Where is the embracing of one an other and the Cosse