this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â— Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌ„d What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌ„ceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ„ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâ—eâ— homine Volunt tameÌ„ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in â—erno sea conscientiae Siâ— Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated
Ecclesiasticae doctrinae Idem in Eâ—st ad Episc Africae ouerthrowe the coÌ„trarie and to put the matter b Ego arbitrabar omniuÌ„ quotquot vnquaÌ„ fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitateÌ„ Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse naÌ„ fides quae inibi a Patribus secuÌ„duÌ„ sacras Scripturas tradita confessionibus confirmata est satis mihi idonea efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendaÌ„ Atque ideo diuersis Concilijs per GalliaÌ„ Hispanias Romae celebratis omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant quae Arrij sunt sapiunt commâ— calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt eâ— quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum c. 〈◊〉 Athanas Epist ad Epictet Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones infâ—tuant Ibidem out 〈◊〉 question and so farre that who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselues were c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse quod non simul istos compescuerit piamâ—dem in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà illis proposâ—erit vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur Ibidem â—ereticks It was a vaine thing so he steemed it in the Arians by other CouÌ„cells to seek to reuerse what was â—â—ere established the definition of â—â—e holie Ghost there made the word â—f God by that Councell remaines foâ—uer d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud Nicenum aliâ— subinde concilia moliuntur quippe qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint in singulis semper aliquid innouantes c. ignari interim omnem plantationem quaâ— non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse verbâ—â— autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet S Athanas Epist. ad Episc Africae verbum illud Domini per â—licaenum Concilium manet in aeterâ—um As for the comparison which he â—akes with scripture it e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs neque in hoc vlla controuersia esâ— Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliqâ— Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue 〈◊〉 Concilio non intelligunt quoad authoritatem secundum se sed quoad explicationem quoad nos Ibidem hurteth â—ot He that saith the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie â—eceaued is more powerfull then a Councell or that the eternall veâ—tie opeÌ„lie reuealed as it is to Saints 〈◊〉 more powerfull then scripture â—oth not preiudice infallibilitie Both â—ay haue it and yet one be more â—owerfull And this supposed visit â—hat both scripture and the Counâ—ell be infallible but the power of cripture more the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing He thaâ— will not submit his iudgment to thaâ— authoritie which is most powerfull doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the lesse he doth easilie contemne a Councell who contemneâ— the Scripture proposed by the vniuersall Church as the Arians did who contradicted open Scripture and all Antiquitie Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controuersies by Councells for though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue yet may there be another way to finde it out and that certaine too And doubtles he that seeth in scripture that which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church that which holds out the booke wherein â—he reades it doth beleeue is more powerfullie moued to giue assent then he that heares a Councell onâ—ie And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all propose the same then when one alone doth auouch it though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible §. XII Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith as certaine and vndoubted How a man is to carrie himself when matter of faith is questioned The way to finde the Catholike sence Generall Councels infallible in their decrees and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them SAepe magno studio summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam quasi generali ac regulari viâ— Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate discâ—nere huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli Quoâ— siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fraâ—des deprehendere laqueosque vitare in fide sanus atque integer permanere duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiouante deberet Primò scilicet diuinae legis authoritate tuâ— deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1. VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS The argument taken from this Father is that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô◠nouationes he hath omitted to specifie generall Councells and their decrees and diuers leaues are spent tâ— proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe But no paines will serue Hâ— doth more then once or twice mention them and hath testified whaâ— he thought of their authoritie Two generall a Vicent Lyrin c. 1. waies there are to distinguish the truth from errour in matâ—er of Religion the one by Scripture â—he other by Tradition but the scripture is profound and obscure wheâ—evpon it hath come to passe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it â—iuers waies so that to knowe the â—ight meaning of it it is necessarie â—o recurre to tradition and as he â—aith in the second chapter of his booke b Idem c. 2. vide Disp li. 5. c 1. li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. pag. 395 fine that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sence Which Catholik sence may be found three waies chieflie according as he conceaues it one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church a second is to see if it be held by the Fathers each writing in his owne time a third to see whether it be defined in any generall Councell By these three waies principallie a man is directed to the Catholik or true sence of scripture and all three are not necessarie but any of the three will serue the turne c Vâ—iâ—nt c. â— In the Catholik Church saith he wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where that which hath been beleeued euer that which hath been beleeued by all for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare which truelie doth comprehend all vniuersallie And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Vniuersalitie wee shall follow
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌ„tent to â—hink the authoritie of those â—â—o or three though the â—â—st contradict sufficient to â—ake is probable and then iudâ—ng of the reasons and motiâ—es which they bring as his â—â—fections incline him he thinks 〈◊〉 at last certaine So did the â—rians depending vpon the â—uthoritie first of their leaâ—ers and then deeming their â—otiue as that pater maior me 〈◊〉 to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiâ—â—out pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌ„ter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌ„t quod non etiam Scripturae verbâ—s adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌ„piam Haereâ—â—corum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ„ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures â—â—d gleane obscure speaches â—t of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this â—ay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ— Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ— the same sillie motiue if thâ— whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ— contrarie he will not beleeâ—â— the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâ—ors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌ„gst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest â—chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌ„t as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌ„trouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ„ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ„ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌ„s Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale â—n which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌ„s are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌ„cell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie â—ecumenicall such as were generall â—nd approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and â—rre Wee dispute not you and 〈◊〉 now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâ—ose it be and define be infalâ—ble But what men Cathoâ—ike Deuines haue auerred â—ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and â—pproued The termes of the Question â—e remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and â—pproued or entirelie oecumeâ—icall Deuines of the Catholike â—ommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâ—use entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters â—f Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâ—i sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ— such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some â—aue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâ—ture which all now beleeue â—o be Canonicall wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-auâ—â—oritie the like should haue â—appened the tenet of Assistanâ—e giuen to them in their deâ—rees of faith being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradiâ—â—on then you can shew for diâ—ers parts of Scripture which â—ou do beleeue to be diuine â—ere still euen by you in like â—anner to be admitted and â—aintained vnles you think it â—wfull to reiect those Books alâ—â— because once doubted of or â—enied and neuer to beleeue â—at which might with a preâ—nce of authoritie be oppoâ—â—d or contradicted Thus I could answer and â—are the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ— you wrong some that be leaâ—ned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ— adherents that will beleeuâ— you to the preiudice of theâ—selues and others vpon yoâ— bare word when they sâ—â— none contradict and confuâ— that you boast of I will suruâ—â— the citations Our dispute in this matteâ— is to be of Catholikes it is as bâ—fore was noted impertineâ—â— to talke of others and of sucâ— as in plaine termes haue auouchâ— and maintained what you prâ—tend they did Wee know thâ— some haue beene mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters and yet contâ—nued in the Church either bâ—cause the thing was not suffâ—cientlie brought to light 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuinâ— faith be not at all times equaâ—lie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌ„s of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know â—oo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages â—uen the primitiue Others haâ—e discouered their temptaâ—ions with all the motions of â—heir vnderstanding to and â—ro concealing onlie the finall â—esolution or euent Of which â—nfirmitie some and not wiâ—hout scandall haue exhibited â—hemselues by their writings â—ublicke spectacles to the â—orld With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle being to â—peake of such onlie if any can â—e found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâ—herwhile be not of vs. Some â—o beare themselues for Caâ—holikes who be in their hearâ—es Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
admitted in some others â—t in a scholler that pretends to haâ— reade the Question in him and â—â—th vrge his authoritie against the â—hurch of God such a pretence â—th no place §. III. Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie will haue vs depend â—on the Church for the sence of it 2. She is â—o to declare which bookes are Canonicall â—ripture A speach of Canus touching Walâ—sis his Opinion examined 3. When he saith 〈◊〉 Fathers testimonie hath abolished all Heâ—â—es he doth not exclude the Authoritie of 〈◊〉 Church symbolicall or representatiue 4 â—e symbolicall Church he saith against Wiâ—ef is not the Predestinated people only but 〈◊〉 Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree HAecipsa fides authoritas Ecclesiae quantum homiâ—â— supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis â—â—thoritati succumbit Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est 〈◊〉 inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae infimam ratioâ— fides Ecclesiae Scripturas venerabiliter attollens exhibeus rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authoritaâ— alligans zona Pauli Idem ex eodem 1. WALDENSIS saith the authoâ—â—tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture What this will you inferre that wee thâ—refore neede not obaie the decrâ—â— of Councells or that the Châ—â—ches authoritie is fallible Infallibâ—â—tie may be in others besides Scâ—â—pture The Apostles were not Scâ—â—pture yet were they infallible â—nesses of the trueth The Churcâ— the pillar and ground of trueth thoâ— the Church be not Scripture 1. Timoth. 3. Thâ— may be diuers Authorities infallâ— and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other And so are these two accâ—â—ding to this Author as you may â—by the places represented in the a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota non tamen est eiâ—n authoritate par sed subijcitur Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum quod non licet de ipsa dubitare eo quod testimoniuÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectuÌ„ fidei Christianae legis latio scripturae canonicae Subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut testis iudici testimonium veritati sicut praeconâ—zatio definitioni sicut praeco regi Ibâ—dem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo saltem colore tuo decredere quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur fidei robur habet quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis Idem c. 25. margine One onely I will putt here because it serues also for that which followes In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed there where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and amongst other things to this purpose hath these words Before the written Gospell this in the heart of the Church was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand in the controuersies whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull or subuerted by the Heretick whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians saying â—ow are our Epistle written in your hearts which is knowne and read of all men declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart And a litle after Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts be most certaine yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum a most certaine interpretation in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times foreuer according to that of the Prophet this is the testament which I will make to them giuing my lawes in their hearts and in their sense or minde I will write them I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae eius authoritas quantum hominum supergreditur rationem tantum fateor diuinâ— legis authoritati succumbit sed tamen quaâ— minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Waâ—d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae semper credenda est si quandoqâ—â— fallere consueta in omnibus est suspecta Ibidem the diuine law were vnto the faithfull * Non licet de ipsa dubitare c. vide in Addit of lesse authoritie if the Church did not preferre it And c Hoc est quod superius dixi quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae ipsa tamen taxabeâ— se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa dicit Origenes Ibidâ—â— howmuch soeuer the diuinâ— scripture is higher then the decree of â—he Church ipsa tamen sensum eius â—axabit she notwithstanding shall deâ—ne the sense wherein thou maiest not â—old otherwise and whose interpretaâ—â—on to resist is as Origen speakes a â—apitall offence So he AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo aniâ—o paterer ab haereticis non admitti sed illud tamen doleo veheâ—enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur in quibus Thoâ—as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc fid c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex â—no Addit Baro c. 20. 21. SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now â—â—esent power to determine which â—â—e bookes of scripture And for this â—â—e cited three Chapters of his 2. â—â—oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. â—ut there I finde it not He doth inâ—ed hold that the Catholick Churh â—â—d no other is able to d Et hoc est secundum dictuÌ„ gloriosum de Ecclesia quod sc ipsa sola est cuius testimoniuÌ„ est tantae authoritatis praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturaruÌ„ taxare decoruÌ„ authoribus certificare possit fideles nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire wald li. 2. doct fid c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes ab Apostolis propagata testimoniuÌ„ certum reddit Ibidem Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credeÌ„dam sub poena contumaciae Ea dico quae praesens est quae iudicia directa
decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapieÌ„tium atque docentium ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae tom 1. doctrina 2. certifie â—hich bookes are scripture and that â—â—e can commend none in this naâ—â—re but such as were written in â—â—e Apostles e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebaÌ„t Ecclesijs ducere scripturaruÌ„ volumina ad perfectum tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritateÌ„ sacri canonis nisi qui de illis teÌ„poribus Apostolicis agereÌ„t tunc temporis essent quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà daies but this is â—t to denie the present Church or Councell power to propose againe the same There were notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testameÌ„t which approbation came not at least so manifestlie to the notice of all some who doubted of f Vide Disp pa. 431 or denied them as for example the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle and the later oâ— S. Peter yet you your selues doe and Waldensis did receaue them aâ— the hands of the Church by thaâ— part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that hâ— denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee noâ— speake of but he saies onelie thaâ— he seemes to be of those who denie thâ— power to define which booke is Canonicall to belonge chieflie to a generâ— Councell It is one thing to saie thâ— a Councell can doe it another tâ— saie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell as you will perceaâ— by the declaration of the next placâ— obiected Waldensis as Canus worâ— import seemed to denie not the foâ—mer but the later neither doth 〈◊〉 saie that he denied it but that 〈◊〉 did seeme to doe so some things thâ— â—hilosophers vse to saie do seeme 〈◊〉 be and are not and some thing â—emes to one otherwise many tiâ—es then to an other Had it been so â—deed I make no question but that â—ou who haue been diligent in your â—inde to seeke in him what might â—e brought against vs would not â—aue omitted to relate the words When you seeke for them next â—ou will finde in him first as I said â—efore that in his exclusiue he speaâ—es of bookes not written in the Aâ—ostles time or before to which purâ—ose he g Waldens li. 2. fid doc c. 20. brings the place of scriâ—ture Dominus narrabit in scripturis â—opulorum principum horum qui â—uerunt in ea with S. Ieroms Comment on it wherein are these words vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud â—osteà dicitur abscindatur non habeat â—osteà authoritatem And to the same â—enour he himselfe a litle after let vs â—ote the differences of Scripture because the scripture or writing onlie of â—he Princes that is of the Apostles hath after our lord the crowne of authoritie I meane of canonicall authoritie for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie bâ— not canonicall Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churcâ— in a generall Councell might wriâ— a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other bookâ— of holie writt since S. Gregorie thâ— great doth professe to honour theâ— as the Gospels in those words h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti epist 24. citatur in Decret d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot Ibidem Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere veneraâ—me fateor Waldensis there answere to this argument and expounds thâ— words of S. Gregorie Thirdlie because it might againe be obiecteâ— out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken that i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de librâ—s recipiendis non recipâ—eÌ„dâ—s vbi scripturaruÌ„ libros in authoritate pleâ—â—râ—a quomodo sint habendi denunciat noÌ„ ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat walden vbi supra Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon and what not he answers with a distinction which doth explaine his minde and dotâ— suffice to stopp your mouth wheâ— occasion require Scripturarum libâ— saith he in authoritate plenaria quâ— modo sunt habendi denunciat non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaurâ— That is in briefe he doth not giue but declare their sacred and diuinâ— â—thoritie And the same the Church 〈◊〉 all times might and may doe â—hensoeuer there shall be cause â—hey were by the holy Ghost inâ—red and written by the Apostles â—d Princes of the Church qui fueâ—t in ea and were approued by them 〈◊〉 but it hath beene since necessaâ— to declare some of them to giue â—timonie that they be diuine and â—s testimonie the Church still can â—e Neither is our Sauiour offenâ—d with her testimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word who was pleased that she â—ould giue testimonie of himâ—fe Of which matter this author â—th much in the former Chapters â—eciallie the eighteenth Fourthlie 〈◊〉 doth esteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope and of a perfect Councell â—e infallible as you will heare beâ—e wee leaue him and therefore â—ch more is he to be esteemed to â—eld this honour to the whole wheâ— they be All which being conâ—ered that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appeares that it is but a â—ere videtur without an est vnâ— it HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit ipsa sc professio concors sanctorum Patrâ— secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testiâ—nium Christi verbis consuetudini primitiue Baro p. 3â— ex wald to 3. de Sacramentalibus doct 3. 3. THirdlie it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie froÌ„ Couâ—cells and from the present Churcâ— because he saith that the vnanimâ— profession of the holie Fathers giuâ— testimonie according to the distanceâ— their times to the * Latiùs patet verbum quà m scriptura words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitiue custome is the oâ—â— Christian engine which hath once â—â—lished all Heresies Wherevnto I aâ—swere first that he speakes withâ— exclusion of the Church presentâ— each heresie for it is well knowâ— that the Church which did aboâ—â— Arianisme and Nestorianisme 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times was that Church whâ— knewe of them and that she diâ— by her Pastors and for the most pâ— in Councells though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chuâ—â—â— and those her Pastors which liâ—â— in the precedent ages which o◠〈◊〉 or agreeable profession was â—nd partlie by their bookes as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares â—his daie and partlie by the tradiâ— of the particular Churches wheâ— they had liued and died Which â—â—nner the Church doth still obserâ— in condemning heresies as they
confirmed or approued Councells 3. It is a sophisticall proceeding to impugne one veritie with another veritie FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuersalem Ecclesiam representare Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam errare non posse verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam hoc est fideles omnes non errare at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc 5. c. 5. CANVS Is pretended to contradict vs though he be knowne to maintaine the Councells infallibilitie such as wee speake of adding withall that the contrarie is hereticall In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke where he treates of that controuersie his third conclusion is a Tertia Conclusio Concilium generale confirmatuÌ„ authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatuÌ„ Quam quidem conclusioneÌ„ ita explorataÌ„ habere opus est vt eius coÌ„trariam haereticam esse credamus Canus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome doth make certaine the faith of Catholike tenets Which he there proues with many reasons resoluing also the doubts which Heretikes obiect against it 2. Hauing established that authoritie he disputes further whether 〈◊〉 Councell not confirmed by the Pope hatâ— certaine and firme authoritie or no some learned men b Dubium excutiendum est an Concilium per legatos suÌ„mi PoÌ„tificis celebratum firmam certaÌ„que habeat authoritatem an potius episcopi Romani confirmatio expectaÌ„da sit vt certa habeaÌ„tur decreta CoÌ„cilij Idem c. 5. viri doctissimi doe affirme it because it represents the vniuersall Church which cannot erre Wherevnto Canus answers that the whole Church or an approued Councell which doth perfectlie represent it cannot erre but a part of either may c Ibidem The iudgment saith he of the greater part of the Councell though the Legates follow it is not certaine certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmaretur but if it should be confirmed by the Pope it would be certaine And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance made for the same purpose d Ibidem euen as saith he that which seemeth good to the whole Church the same also seemeth good to the holie Ghost but not presentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged the same is the iudgment of the holie Ghost so if anything be iudged by all the Bishops it is verilie iudged by the spirit of God but not presentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one sentence shall it be to be beleeued the sentence of the holie Ghost vnles it be confirmed by the Pope 3. By the waie I obserue here two things one is that if an author interprete those words Ecclesia errare non potest the Church cannot erre of the whole or vniuersall Church it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall approued Councells which are perfect representations of the Church diffused for this e Simile in S. Antonino obseruare licet de quo suprà Et nota post verba ab aduersarijs citata vt supa pag. 86. seqâ—i immediatè in authore sic igitur non ego admitto vt totum Concilium cuÌ„ legatis errare possit at errare poterit maior pâ—â—s Concâ—lij eâ—â—nti illi poteruÌ„â— le gatis subscribere Aâ— que id est quod nos in praesentia dicimus â—udicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur non esse certum certùm autem esset si à summo Pontificeconfirmaretur Nec enim opus est quemad moduÌ„paulò antè docuimus sententiaÌ„ Concilij omnes simul patres approbare Canus li. 5. c. 5 q. â— man whom you cite for the former part doth also maintaine the later And the manner of arguing is indeed absurd because it would impugne one truth by another As if I should saie the whole Gospell of S. Iohn is the vndoubted word of God therefore the first Chapter of it is not And were it admitted it would proue as before I said on the same occasion that euerie Apostle yea all the Apostles and Fathers might haue consented in a grosse yea and in the most fundamentall errour because they be not the whole and vniuersall Church The other thing which I obserue is that without sinceritie or conscience you doe make vse of mens words contrarie to their knowne professed meaning and intention which proceeding especiallie in matter of religion is inexcusable The like obseruation I might haue made in Antoninus who is alleaged against that which he did openlie maintaine §. VIII 1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extension in diuine assistance and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed doth not any way impeach the promise of assistance and infallibilitie in all that doth intrinsecallie appertaine to the substance of diuine faith QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intelligâ— possunt c. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare aliquando poterit c. ex Stap. 1. STAPLETON is brought as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells then Protestants doe because he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious subtilities and questions indifferent vnto faith nor thinke it so ample in obiect as was that of the Apostles Where first it is to be considered that as in faith or science so likewise in assistance or infallibilitie more or lesse extension doth not change the nature of the thing Mathematicall science in one is more extended then in another one knowes more conclusions then another doth yet is it in both of the same nature The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the same Species and kinde as the Deuines teach though one by it knowes more another lesse Faith in vs and in the Apostles before and since the Incarnation is of the same nature but more extended in the Apostles then in vs and since the incarnation more generallie then it was before The like wee saie of assistance or infallibilitie in iudgment it hath been more extended in some then in others more at one time then at another Secondlie it is to be considered that the Apostles who did write scripture had infallibilitie in a Singuli Apostoli de omnibus plenissimè à Deo instructierant ita vt eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem siuè necessariò siue noÌ„ necessariò pertinente pronunciare potuisset idquetanta certitudine vt non solum pastores essent fidelissimi sed etiaÌ„ magistri peritissimi omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria penerarent Staeplet de princip fidei Doctrinal li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus
intellecta vel à nobis S. Aug epist 111. Other bookes haue not in euerie part that infallibilitie other writers haue not such ample assistance as the Sacred writers had SI diuinarum scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate sine vllae dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist 112. 2. THe Second exception is that S. Augustine in an other place Epist 112. speakes not of writings only but of witnesses and leaues it as it is pretended in our choise whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture Wherevnto I answer that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other in your sence binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church as infallible esteeming it c S. August epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it yet the Church is not scripture To this purpose there be many places in him whereof I will cite one In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion without rebaptizing he makes this discourse d S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie should be consulted of vs in this Question wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ by whose testimonie he was commended now our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church wherefore as that Church diffused thorough all Nations beginning at Hierusalem doth receaue such penitents so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued And if thou wilt not thou doest most perniciouslie cōtrarie to thy owne saluation striue against not me or any mā but our Sauiour himselfe whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted as that Church which he whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable commends with his testimonie doth admit The same is confirmed out of the Gospell wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles and Disciples and in them to the Church that they should beare e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 testimonie of him yet the Apostles the Disciples the whole Church be not Scripture Againe f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me saith our Sauiour he that contemneth you contemneth me There is therefore an authoritie aliue and distinct from the written word which wee must yeeld vnto by S. Augustine also confessed and consequentlie it is not in our choise to beleeue or contemne any but the scripture Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles before it was written downe as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned To the place obiected Supra pag 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi creder◠vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited doe suggest an easie answer as this Others not commended by this authoritie beleeue or not beleeue as you see cause but others commended by this authoritie you must beleeue as farre as by it they are warranted and commended Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes must beleeue him for of him they giue testimonie The like it is of the Church if you beleeue the Prophets you must beleeue the vniuersall Church for they giue testimonie of it and as S. Augustine saith more cleere then of our i S. Augu. Enarr in psal 30. conc 2. Sauiour himselfe One testimonie may warrant another and so they will become in a manner one He that obaieth the magistrate doth therein honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes doth therein a dutie vnto God who commands it Wee stoope to God when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization was come this k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis quarum nobis communis est authoritas ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum nec nos ita susceptum quantum ad hanc remattinet par nobis causa est Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs one comming from Heretikes againe baptized nor wee one so receaued for as much as concernes this matter that is producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other our cause is equall he shewes notwithstanding how euen in this point the Church in his time and he with it followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti c. for it is not of small regard or moment that whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part or faction began to be this Question did wauer and had the different Opiniōs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike Church spred ouer all the world And a litle after wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs and euen in this thing when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat let him require in it the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs You know that actions donne with ones owne hād by the motion of his owne spirit a man reputes not aliene but his owne So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie donne by the motion of his Spirit Settle
it in your hearts not to meditate before what you shall answer for I will giue you a mouth and wisedome which â—ll your aduersaries shall not be able to gainesay nor resist Luc. 21. It shall â—e giuen to you in that same hower what â—ou shall speake for it it not you that â—peak Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis docebit vos omnem veritatem Non enim loquetur a semetipso sed quaecunque audiet loquetur c. de meo accipiet annuÌ„ciabit vobis Ioan. 16. Mea doctrina â—oÌ„â—st mea sed eius qui misit me Ioan. 6 Tâ—es sunt qui testimonium dant in caelo c. hi tres vnuÌ„ sunt 1. Ioan. 5. but the Spirit of your Father that â—eaketh in you Matt. 10. My words â—hat I haue put in thy mouth shall not â—epart out of thy mouth and out of the â—outh of thy seed c. saith our Lord â—om hence foorth and foreuer Esaie â—9 He that heareth you heareth me â—uke 10. Since you seek a proofe of â—hrist speaking in me 2. Cor. 12. The â—pirit of our Lord hath spoken by me â—nd his words by my tongue 2. Kings â— Againe The decrees which wee â—eak of haue the testimonie of the â—olie Ghost and the Scriptures â—ue the testimonie of the Holie â—host Now the Holie Ghost giuing testimonie to both these iâ— not thereby in himself deuided into two He is still the same testis Saint Gregorie our Apostle reuerenced the four first generall CouÌ„cels li. 1. Regest ep 24. vt quatuor Euangelia as he did the four Gospels Saint Augustine whose authoritie is heere obiected when he speakes of the sentence against the Donatists li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. saies Deus plenario Concilio reuelauit The Church Waldensis aboue told you make no doubt but that the Holie Ghost assists her li. 2. Doct. fid c. 27. in her sincere oecumenicall assemblies He is present to them and defines in them So dâ— the Apostles beleeue too Act. 15. attributing their decree to the Holie Ghosâ— whose assistance was * Suggeret vobis omnia Ioh. 14. In vobis erit IbideÌ„ Docebit vos omnem veritatem c. 16. promised It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghosâ— and to vs. This for Councels Noâ— for Scripture Well spake the Holie Ghost by Esaâ— the Prophet vnto our Fathers Aâ— vlt. God who at sundrie times and 〈◊〉 diuers manners spake in times pasâ— vnto the Fathers by the Prophets Heâ— 1. He spake by the mouth of his hoâ— Prophets which haue beene since 〈◊〉 world began Luc. 1. Holie men of God spake as they were moued by the Holie Ghost 2. Pet. 1. In a word There are diuisions of graces but one Spirit and there are diuisions of operations but one Lord and there are diuisions of ministrations but one God who worketh all in all And the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euerie one to profit To one c. Vide Disput li. 3 vbi agitur de Spiritus Sancti assistentia And all these things worketh one and the same Spirit diuiding to euerie one according as it will 1. Cor. 12. I forbeare to note that Saint Augustine speakes in the place obiected of a point * Cùm enim petiuisses vt de inuisibili Deo vtrum peroculos corporeos possit videri prolixè aliquid copioseque ad te scriberem negare non potui S. Aug. Epist 112. Quod non sic ostendero vt aut corporis aut animi sensu visum perceptumque teneatur tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falsum esse necesse sit sed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur restat vt tantum modo credatur vel non credatur Sed si dininarum Scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua quod dixero firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus c. vt suprà Ibidem Dico itaque quod visuri sint Deum in ipso corpore sed vtrum per ipsum sicut per corpus nunc videmus solem lunam stellas mare ac terram quae sunt in ea non parua quaestio est S. Aug. li 22. de Ciuit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philosophorum qua disputant ita mentis aspectu intelligibilia videri sensu corporis sensibilia id est corporalia vt nec intelligibilia per corpus nec corporalia per scipsa mens valeat intueri si posset nobis esse certissima profectò certum esset per oculos corporis etiam spiritalis nullo modo posse videri Deum Sed istam ratiocinationem vera ratio prophetica irridet authoritas Ibidem Tametsi nec Scripturae nec ConcilioruÌ„ nec PatruÌ„ testimonijs expressè definituÌ„ sit noÌ„ posse Deum oculo corporeo videri id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali c. Vasquez 1. p. disp 40 c. 2. not determined by the Church whence ariseth a third Answer And he that can but English his m Inspiciatur codex manuscriptus words will himself espie a fourth and a fift Quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata Baro. p. 336 ex Aug. 3. The third exception is that Councells according to S. Augustine be not equall to the Scripture But I see not how any thing can be drawne hence against their infallibilitie in decrees Wee doe not equall the Apostles or the Prophets to our Sauiour Iesus Christ nor the written word with the eternall and increated word yet the Prophets and the Apostles and the Scripture or written word are infallible Moreouer the Canonicall Scriptures are infallible in all what euer they auouch of what argument or matter soeuer it be which latitude of infallibilitie wee finde not in the acts of Generall Councels nor in any other booke or writing as you were told before and though I doe not your selfe will repeate againe out of S. Augustine quis n S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt contr Donat. c. 3. nesciat Sanctam Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamenti certis suis terminis contineri eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omninò dubitari disceptari non possit vtrum verum vel rectum sit quicquid in ea scriptum esse coÌ„stiterit That quicquid doth import an amplitude of infallibilitie which Councells haue not and therefore they are not equall vnto Scripture The Donatists excepted against a Councell because it had in it registred the daie and the Consuls o Etiam hinc gestis ipsis CirteÌ„sibus calumniabantur quia ibi dies CoÌ„sules legebantur exigebaÌ„t à nobis vt aliqua Ecclesiastica Concilia proferremus vbi dies recitarentur consules c. etiam hoc exigebant vt de Scripturis sanctis ostenderemus alicubi dies Consules esse conscriptos quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis
vel for there were yet other things which might so come to light besides matters of faith all other verities are not manifested by triall and experiment though some be much lesse can you doe it â—f you consider that the later part and the former be coupled into the same sence by the coniunctiue 〈◊〉 answer secondlie that were matâ—ers of faith expressed in that part 〈◊〉 for of that part onlie which conâ—ernes plenarie Councells I speake â—s it is manifest they be not still â—ou were short of your aime for some kinde of generall Councells such as are vnlawfull or such as are lawfull but not approued though you would neuer be able to proue so much out of this place might neede mending and yet approued and confirmed Councels need none I knowe that some of yours doe sleight the distinction of confirmed and not confirmed Councels as a thing not knowne to S. Augustine and other Auncients but they be mistaken much If you looke into the tome of his Epistles you will see that kk S. Aug. Ep. 90. he with many other Bishops in a Councell wrote vnto Pope Innocentius to confirme their acts and decree made against those errours which Pelagius and Caelestiâ—â— had auouched vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur authoritas that to the decreeâ— of our mediocritie the authoritie of the See Apostolike be added And afterwards error impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiaÌ„ Apostolicae sedis authoritate anathematizanda est The errour and impietie of those men which hath so many abbetters and those disperseâ— in diuers parts or places is to be anathematized also by the authoritie of the See Apostolike Wherevnto the Pope answers and his Epistle is there ll Apud S Aug. Epist 91. also first commending them for requiring as they ought to doe the iudgment of the See Apostolike scientes quid Apostolicae sedi debeatur Secondlie confirming this obligation the Fathers saith he non humana sed diuina decreuere sententia vt quicquid de disiunctis remotisque prouincijs ageretur non prius ducerent finiendum nisi ad huius sedis notitiam perueniret vbi tot a huius authoritate iusta que fuerit pronunciatio firmaretur the fathers haue decreed by a sentence not humane but diuine marke the words that whatsoeuer should be donne in disâ—oyned and remote prouinces they should not esteeme it to be ended vnles it come first to the notice of this See where the proposition or sentence which is iust should be established with the whole authoritie of this Thirdlie he declates quisquis huic assentiens videtur esse sententiae speaking of the the Pelagian errour nimium se Catholicae fidei Dei beneficijs profitetur ingratum who soeuer seemes to consent into this opinion doth professe himselfe an enemie to the Catholike faith and ingratefull to gods benefits And in fine he cuts the faction of from communion separetur ergo c. Neither doth S. Augustine omit to giue notice of this answer for in the 106. Epistle hauing signified the sending of the acts of the foresaid Councell and of another also against the same errours together with letters to the same purpose to Pope Innocentius he saith mm S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item serm 2. de verbis Apostoli li. 2. cont duas Epist Pelag. c. 3. ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit eodem modo quo fas erat atque oportebat Apostolicae sedis antistitem He wrote vs an answer to all things in such manner as a Bishop of the see Apostolike lawfullie might before god and ought to doe Adding also els-where that by those letters dubitatio tota sublata est alâ— doubt in that matter was taken away I omit to put you further in minde that the Councell of nn Relat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem Papam Chalcedon asked of Leo the great as their Head and Father confirmation of their decrees which he also gaue though oo Leo Papa Epist 55. ad Pulch. Aug. not in all they desired and thereby did manifest the fullnes of his authoritie It were easie to bring many examples in this kind were I professedlie to treat of it but keeping my self as I haue donne hetherto to those authors you obiect it sufficeth to satisfie by S. Augustines authoritie the difficulties which you bring out of S. Augustine The necessitie of the Popes approbation you finde elswhere Disput li. 4. c. 4. and it is a thing so manifest by the Scripture Matth. 16. Ioan. 21. that he in his Predecessor S. Peeter is peculiarlie designed as Chiefe of those Pastors on whom the Church is to relie for the knowledg and meaning of Gods word according to the Apostles doctrine Ephes 4. Ephes 2.20 Epist Iudae v. 20 which Pastors are therefore assisted accordinglie to support the faithfull built vppon them that all other interpretation which would exclude it is violent vnto the text and Disput li. 4. c. 1. 2. inasmuch as it labours to remoue the foundation which our Sauiour laide doth indeuour though vainelie for it is more then Hell can do to ruine the whole Church The pretence of plaine Scripture or of manifest reason such as an vnderstanding man considering cannot but assent vnto against the consent of all the Pastors in a Councell is openly insufficient because it doth suppose and without yea against all reason that they the Pastors with all their Exercise in Diuinitie and diligent inquisition looking into and considering the words of Scripture comparing texts together examining the traditions of the Church perusing former Councels with the writings of the Fathers and other monuments of antiquitie and assisted by the Holie Ghost their interiour Master be not as able as their aduersaries to conceaue plaine Scripture Innumerabiles sunt qui se videntes non solùm â—actaÌ„t sed à Christo illuminatos videri volunt sunt autem Haeretici S. Augu. in Ioan. tract 45. and reason so manifest or that conceauing and vnderstanding it they should be all so malicious and our Sauiour so vnmindfull of his promise as to propose vnto the world and oblige it to beleeue as our Sauiours words the contrarie But it is familiar in such Opponents as want them selues that Authoritie which the Sonne of God hath established to keepe vs from Errour to pretend euident Scripture and manifest pp Illi qui cum in vnitate atque communione catholica noÌ„ sint Christiano tamen nomine gloriantur coguntur aduersari credentibus audent imperitos quasi ratione traducere quando maximé cum ista medicina Dominus venerit vt fidem populis imperaret Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere se abiectissimè sentiunt si eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica conferatur Conantur ergo authoritatem stabilissimam fundatissimae Ecclesiae quasi rationis nomine pollicitatione
superare Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium sedesque ipsas Apostolorum arce authoritatis muniuit Ecclesiam per pauciores piè doctos verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis armauit S. Aug. Epist ad Diosc 56. reason against the Church to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authoritie as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe And by the like stratagem did the pagaÌ„s heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt as they pretended could be made of it which was a way they thought to get qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatio quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor Si autem tantummodo promittitur non exhibetur nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit S. Aug. contra Epist Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promittebaâ— scientiam veritatis nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam c. 5. Multò iustiùs cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi ad te non transeo nisi me non credere iusteris sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es dimitte Euangelium Si ad Euangelium me tenes ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam Qua infirmata iam nec Euangelio credere potero c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non credam Ibidem schollers but it proued a meere bragge §. X. 1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries who refused to submitte them selues to the Church to be tryed by the Testament admitted by themselues But the cause it self was in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world to be decided in a Councell and was in fine so determined 2. For finding out the truth in matter of faith recourse is to be made to the fountaine VOs dicitis licet nos non licet inter licet vestrum non licet nostrum nutant remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat nemo nobis omnes contentiosi homines sumus Esto Quaerendi sunt iudices si Christiani de vtraque parte dari non possunt quia studijs veritas impeditur Deforis quaerendus est Iudex si paganus non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis Ergo in terriâ— nullum de hac re reperiri poâ—erit iudictum de caelo quaerendus est Iudex Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum Baro p. 328. ex Optato 1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augugustine he will vndertake for vs to satisfie that you bring from Optatus and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuersie moued by the Donatists this great Doctour doth answer yea the a S. Aâ—g contra Donatiâ—tas passim Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. li. 1. coâ—t Cresc c. 31. 32 whole Catholike world did agree that the matter was to be defined in Councell and that not by cleere scripture there was none but by tradition By the testament yes not the written but the nuncupatiue By the holie Ghost c S Aug suprà inter citat ex Ock lit 1. a iudge from heauen but speaking b in a Councell The whole world did iudge that this verie Controuersie whereof Optatus speakes was to be determined so and accordinglie it was so determined and ended Neither doth Optatus denie that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote graunted and he himselfe yeelded as much of the c Serpit corum sermo vâ—lut cancer dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina c. Dictum est hoc de Arrio cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur pectora multorum sicut cancer intrauerat Optat. Milleu li. 4. Nicene Councell of whose authoritie wee shall presentlie heare more from S. Anathasius who was in it that the Church which hath promise of assistance or the Pastors all assembled in a CouÌ„cell those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to gouerne and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine haue power to determine a controuersie in Religion But the Donatists excepting against the Catholikes as parties in the cause he betakes himselfe to scripture against which being admitted on both sides that pretended exception had no place children that contend about a Legacie both admit their father testament and if there his words decide the controuersie they rest and so he pleades the Donatists must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be showed vnles they proceede as they had denied Church-authoritie so to denie that and him So on he goes to shewe the thing inscripture But what if the words of the testameÌ„t be obscure The matter then requires a Iudge and this Iudge must haue authoritie and assistance if the case be as this was about diuine faith which assistance none hath but by vertue of our Sauiours promise and his promise was made to none but to the Church not to Pagans nor heretikes but to the Church wherefore the Church is to iudge Yet further what if the words of the testament haue it not at all the question was Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church The answer to which Question you doe not finde in scripture the d Qui lotus est c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptized by heretikes There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies an e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum c. S. Aug. li. cont Cresc c. 33 vt suprà Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduÌ„tur quanquam scripta non reperian tur li. 5. de bapt c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos c. De vnitate
thus if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg And antiquitie thus if wee doe not in any sort goe back from those sences which it is manifest that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commended and Censent likewise if wee followe the definitions and decrees of all or neere all the priests and masters in Antiquitie And d Quid igitur faciet Christianus Catholicus si se aliqua Ecclesiae particula ab vniuersalis fidei communione praeciderit quid vtique nisi vt pestisero corruptoque meÌ„bro sanitatem vniuersi corporis anteponats quod si nouella aliqua coÌ„tagia non iam portiunculam tantum sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur locum hunc corruperuÌ„t Wittaker Vitus haeretici tunc item prouidebit vt antiquitati inhaereat quae prorsus iaÌ„ non potest vlla nouitatis fraude seduci Quid si in ipsa vetustate duorum aut trium hominuÌ„ vel certè ciuitatis vnius aut etiam prouinciae alicuius error deprehendatur Tunc omnino curabit vt paucoruÌ„ temeritati vel inscitiae fi qua sunt vniuersaliter antiquitus vniuersalis Ecclesiae decreta praeponat Quid si tale aliquid emergat vbi nihil huiusmodi reperiatur Tuuc operam dabit vt collatas inter se MaioruÌ„ coÌ„sulat interrogeâ—que sententias eorum duÌ„taxat qui diuersis licet teÌ„poribus locis in vnius tameÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholica communione fide permanentes magistri probabiles extiterunt quicquid noÌ„ vnus aut duo taÌ„tum sed omnes pariter vno eodemque coÌ„senâ—â— apertè frequeÌ„ter perseueranter tenuisse scripsisse docuisse cognouerit id sibi quoque intelligat absque vlla dubitatione credendum Vinc Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the same purpose He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke there had been three generall Councells whose decrees though not made the * Nicenum anno 325. first of them much more then a hundred yeeres before him he â—umbers amongst the records of anâ—iquitie which are to be looked into And in like manner the decrees maâ—e 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs â—ake place and order in the records â—f antiquitie respectiuelie to our times the distance of precedence â—eing more then was the distance of any Councell precedent respectiuelie vnto him You are further to obserue that â—o the vniuersalitie of a truth he doth not require that it be distinctlie beleeued of all that professe Christian religion some haue professed it who beleeued not the blessed Trinitie others denied the Incarnation the greatest mysteries were not Catholick in this sense neither doth â—he require that a point or veritie which is Catholik be such that it hath been expreslie and distinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times the Catholick Epistles in this sence e Vide Disp pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times were not all Catholick but his meaning is as I insinuated before that a sence or veritie appertaining to faith which is beleeued by the Symbolicall that is by the vniuersall catholike Church either allwaies or at any time for it can neuer erre in diuine faith or which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught and professed or which hath beene defined by all or neere all the Pastors those which are to teach in a generall councell is to be receaued as a Catholick sense Twice in that little booke herepeates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik sense by antiquitie consenting either in Councell or out of Councell and by vniuersalitie and in both places the definition of generall Councells and their authoritie comes in As in the 38. chapter where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures against the truth in this case saith he Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuersall Church and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree wherein likewise it is necessarie that they follow the vniuersalitie antiquitie and consent of the Catholick Church And if at any time a part doth rebell against the whole noueltie against antiquitie or the disagreement of one or some fewe erring persons against the consent of all or at least of farre more Catholikes let them preferre the integritie of the whole before the corruption of the part And in the same whole the religion of antiquitie before the prophanesse of noueltie as also in antiquitie it selfe let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe f primuÌ„ omnium generalia si qua sunt vniuersalis coÌ„cilij decreta praeponant tuÌ„c deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum atque magnoruÌ„ consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Vincent Lirin c 38. first of all if any be the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell then after if that be not let theÌ„ followe that which is next to wit the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting amonge themselues In the next chapter he tells what Fathers those must be whose opinions wee take they must be g Idem c. 39. orthodoxe such as liuing piouslie in the Catholike faith and communion and remaining constant haue died in Christ or happilie bene put to death for him and those he saith are so to be beleeued that what soeuer either all or the greater part haue established or confirmed receauing holding or deliuering with one and the same meaning manifestlie oft constantlie as it were in a certaine councell of masters agreeing among themselues the same is to be esteemed certaine and vndoubted And againe in the h Idem c. 40. next Hos in Ecclesia Dei diuinitus per tempora loca dispensatos quisquis in sensu Catholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Christo sentientes contempserit non hominem contemnit sed Deum He that contemnes these fathers diuinelie distributed according to times and places in the Church of God agreeing in Christ in the sence of a Catholick point of doctrine he contemneth not man but God So greate hee esteemeth this authoritie of the fathers and masters which God hath dispensed not at one but in seuerall times and yet the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell with him haue i c. 38. vt suprà the precedence primum omnium generalia si qua sint vniuersalis Concilij decreta praeponant tunc deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Againe in the 41. chapter he repeates a second time the same matter of finding out the Catholike sence by antiquitie consenting in Councell or out of Councell where he speakes yet more home k Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetustaâ—e duo quaeâ—am vehementer studioseque obseruaÌ„da quibus penitus inhaerere deberent quicunque haeretici esse nolunt PrimuÌ„ si
quâ—d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌ„pluÌ„ adhibuimus SaÌ„cti CoÌ„ciliâ— quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie â—hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
And the iudge of controuersies the holie Ghost being put â—o silence errour in all other matters of that kinde is remedilesse For example if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme this errour were pernicions to the Church and â—hould it preuaile in all as it might â—f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed both infants and others inmumerable would be ruined thereby for vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost Ioh. 3. he shall â—ot enter into the kingdome of heauen The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it and by the diuine commaund in both kinds The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them be not expressed there yet the Church hath them and the whole Christian lawe written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God Our obligations towards superiours of all sorts in conscience and by diuine precept to be performed and the rules of Christian conuersation be not expressed there though the Church may not be ignoraÌ„t of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and by God ordained for her direction and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed I speake of that Creed because you name it as also because the certaintie of other Creeds set out in Councells or of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed I acknowledge it as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost to the Church in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene or that of S. Aâ—hanasius if you beleeue it too then â—ecall your answer for whilst it stands there is no remedie for errours in these matters and many more nor way of assuraÌ„ce for many things which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells that our blessed Sauiour â—aught many things to the Church â—oth before his passion and after his â—esurrection which are not expresâ—ed in the Apostles Creede whereunâ—o you think only assistance is exâ—ended Reade the Gospell of S. â—ohn all ouer or of S. Luke or S. Maâ—hewe and you shall finde this to be â—ue And these things also the Spiâ—it according to promise doth suggest I haue yet many things to saie vnâ—o you which you cannot beare nowe â—ut when he the Spirit of truth comes â—e shall teach you all truth for he shall â—ot speake of himselfe Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare he shall speake This before his passion and after it for fortie daies he appeared to them speaking of the kingdome of God Act. Apost c. 1. Now that all this whether written or not written otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church is included within the obiect of the promised assistance I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ vpon whose promises all that acknowledge him to be true God Ioh. 14. should relie beleeuing them and him as most faithfull He the Spirit of truth shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture and the seÌ„â—â— which without assistaÌ„ce of the holie Ghost caÌ„not be done as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter Vide Disputat li. 3. c. 4. 5. but forbearing that discourse 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that oâ—â— Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme and Eucharist and Order if perchancâ— you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * Acts 20. deuine and how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things or that the texts indeed be Scripture if the holie Ghost doth by promise teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed I demaund also how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed or that he doth teach any at all if by the Scripture theÌ„ he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede for the Scripture is not expreslie there And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture who taught you that The same Question I will aske and you must answer mark well of euerie Chaâ—ter and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine or to make for any peece of your Religion Thirdlie some perchance will obiect that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church which may retaine it though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre You knowe out of the begining of this Relection where this euasion is insinuated and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring you seeme to make an offer in the end to repose heere But none that beleeues the Scripture can rest in it First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors who were to teach and needed assistance in it Ioann 14. he shall teach you And so they did vnderstand it as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people and the people are to learne of the Pastors whose office is to teach how shall they beleeue vnles they heare and how shall they heare with out a preacher Rom. 10. Teach all Nations was said Matth. vlt. not to the people but to the Pastors Ioann vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him were bid to feede the flock of Christ wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people and among them the predestinate depend for instruction should be assisted in their teaching especiallie then when they speake all the same Thirdlie our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church Ephes 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine in the circumuention of errour and if this meanes which is established till the worlds end be fit for this purpose as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence whom he beleeues to be God it is assisted so that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it Fourthlie if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church according to that He which heareth you heareth me Luc. 10.