is méere to vnderstand but that we vnderstand according to sobrietie as God hath delt to euerye one the measure of fayth and we prophesie according to the proportion thereof sith the Scripture may not be interpreted by other spirit then it hath bene deliuered For as no man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is within him euen so the things of God no man knoweth saue onely the spirit of God As for the exposition of the holy Fathers and Doctours the same holy Fathers and Doctours them selues haue taught vs soberly and with reuerence to leaue them if in any wise they thinke other then the truth reporteth Neither yet of counsails haue we any fore iudged senteÌ„ce to be led by the counsel of Nice or Areminum but confer matter with matter cause with cause reason with reason according to the scriptures And vppon this ground we more esteme one laye man bringing scripture for his defence than a whole assemblie without the like assuraunce For were it not extreme madnesse vpon the credit of men to goe carelesse in the mire we knowe not whether sith the thinges are written whereby we may liue Euen as our sauiour Christ gaue aunswere to him that sought life referring him to the scriptures and asking what he read so we vpon those scriptures haue buylded vp our church wherin we haue rather chosen to be dore kéepers than to dwell in the prowd palaces of vngodlie buildings But here M. Harding crieth out for the Apostles constitutions and with rumours and heresies deceitful traditions bringeth battred weapons against our Church walles But alas infelix puer atque impar congressus Achilli O vnhappie child and vnméete match for Achilles This ordinaunce is but quilles these pellets are but paper this powder is but winde and all these engines are but rotten wood Thanks be to God that hath made vs our dwelling places and indewed vs with hope that shall not be confounded We haue left to walke in their slipperie wayes we haue left of to go after them in their vnfruitfull iourneis we haue left of our gaping so long after flyes would God Maister Harding you would so tourne from your follie but you are drounken though not with wine and you stagger though not with strong drinke for the Lord hath couered you with a spirit of slumber and hath shut vp your eyes Concerning traditions I saye breifly such turning of deuises shalbe estemed as the potters claie yet meane I not this of all but of popish traditions of forbidding mariage commaunding to abstaine from meates which S. Paule sayth is the doctrine of Deuills of lying Legendes which are the tokens of Antichrist of massing garments which for all new gloses muste néedes signifie the loking for of a new Messias To be short of all such traditions rites worshippings as at this time set forth the superstition of this romish seruice concluding this place with S. Paul Phil. 4. what so euer things are true what so euer things are honest what so euer things are iust what so euer things are pure what so euer things pertaine to loue â–ª what so euer things are of good report if there be any vertue or if there be any prayse thinke on those things which you both learned receiued and heard sene in me those things doe and the God of peace shalbe with you Nowe he that can bring most auÌ„tient profe what these traditions were it is best reason he should be beleued Speake now for your churche Maister Harding and if you winne for my part I will yeld Speake out therefore alowd and tel vs your witnesse names Ignatius Martialis Abdias Hippolitus Amphilochius Leontius Dyonitius Olde witnesses sure euen moulded with their manie yeares yet such is your fortune euen these are to yong Call for your Clemens the Appostles felow yet he will not serue Ther is one commeth aganist them longer of continuance more trauailed in the world yet not worne with his yeares nor wâ—ried with his labour he is as good as Moyses his eyes are not dimmed nor his naturall force abated he is like vnto Caleb as strong now as when his Moyses first sent him as strong as he was then euen so strong is he now for warre or gouernment a companion of S. Paules iourneis whose prayse is in the Gospell thoroughout all Churches who saluted the Collossians who onelye was with Paule at Rome the .xiii. yeare of the raygne of Nero though you say Peter was then Bishop an excellent Phisition and one that can cure the very hardnes of your hart If you care not for hys commendacions yet regarde his name I doe meane S. Luke the holy Euangelist Let vs stande to his iudgement what were these traditions These traditions sayth he are the Gospell and the Actes which I wrote to Theophilus For these are his very woordes It séemed good also to me most noble Theophilus as soone as I had searched out perfitlye all things from the beginning to wryte vnto you thereof from point to point All these things thus exactly written he receiued onely of his Maister Paule And therfore as it is thought the same Apostle speaking of S. Lukes writing calleth it his owne Gospell So that what so euer Luke reporteth not written by S. Paule it is Paules preaching and that is his tradition yea euen from poynt to poynt O maister Harding you thinke not reuerently of the spirite of God if you can imagine that S. Luke after such a promise vnto Theophilus pretermitted anye thing that séemed necessarie there is nothing sufficient if this be not sufficient And yet there is an other witnesse more auncient then Luke and yet more fresh then all your withered Doctours and that is S. Paule him selfe who in the .xv. to the Romaines as maye well be gathered saith that he wrote vnto them that same that he preached Now sith we haue so sufficient warrants call vs not into law for reiecting your dreamings but acknowledge we say truly in deniyng that Churche whose faith you professe to be the catholike Churche For a briefe aunswere to your order of Bishops I say it is a token that maye faile in the Churche or else was there no Church from the death of Christ till S. Peter was a bishop and so like in all vacations of Popes be they long or short The church must be tried by the woord of God Let Augustine be the Iudge Epist. 166. and Chrisostome vpon Mathew hom 49. Now for the better discharge of Luther and Zuinglius which in Gods cause haue bene Symeon and Leui to reueÌ„ge the adulteries of Sichem I wyll laye foorth your argument and make it no woorse then it is S. Augustine saith if the order of Bishops may prooue the Church there was neuer yet Bishop of Rome a Donatist ergo saith maister Harding ther must néedes be an open succession of Bishops Let who wyll be
naming the holy captain Iosue for the Prophet Ose. fo 98. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fo 100. expresse for represse fol â—od alone hereof for in earth aboue hir fol. 102. but you haue for but your churche hath fol. 104. cansabo for cantabo fol. 111. Antonius for Antoninus And after thou shalt finde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 destruction for distinction could easily for could not easily These and suche other faultes escaped in the printing of my boke as well in the wordes as in the pointing how many so euer thou shalt ascribe vnto me so many iniuries thou shalt doe me He is a simple scholer that can not write truely and the pointing is not so difficult that it requireth any great learning for other things what so euer shalbe founde blame worthy the fault is mine owne and wherein souer the enimy shall finde his fault I doubt not but I shall by Gods grace be able to defend it The force of truth is such that though the patrone be simple yet she will defend hir self especially suche truth as hath made hir selfe so manifest The truthe of God that standeth vpon a hill and may be seene of all men the truth that shineth as a light in a darke place and as the day starre arising in our heartes that truthe whose glorious beautie hath darkned the painted and deceiueable lokes of the purple whore of Babilon It is now no mastery sith we know God to know him that lifteth vp himself against God sith we know Christ to know Antichrist sith we know Peter to know Peters forged successoure And for as much as to this issue al our controuersie is come that what right or authoritie so euer the Pope chalengeth he maketh his whole claime from Peter and the papists themselues will defende him no further but so farre as he succedeth Peter I will speake a little of Peters bishoprike of Rome so farre as the scriptures shall be my warrant Consider thou of it good christian Reader that shall be said and if thou see that all the glorying of Peters being at Rome is but a fasing out of an impudent he then iudge what is their other religion First here I must forwarne thee that as a lie can not long agree with it selfe so in all this matter thou shalt hardly finde in all pointes two popishe chronicles agree togither So that what so euer I wryte as touching the exacte computation of yeres there must needes be many against me Therefore in that I will not striue only I will wryte that which is certaine and shall haue as I said either some warrant of scripture or shall be agreed on by the consent of all ages Our sauioure Christ was crucified for our sinnes the .18 yeare of Tyberius as by all histories it is manifest Peter is said to be put to deathe in Rome the last yeare of Nero so Peter liued after Christ vnder Tyberius .v. yeare Caligula 4. yeare Claudius .13 yeare Nero. 13 yeare In all .36 yeares and odde monthes according to the raigne of the saide Emperoures in these .36 yeares and odde moneths they vvryte of Peter thus He vvas bishop â–ª 4. yeares in the East partes .7 yeares at Antioche and .25 yeares at Rome vvhere at last he died Heere this fable doeth almost bevvray it selfe suche hasty enstallings and so many translatings out of one bishopprike into an other doeth not vvell agree vvith oure sauiours vvordes that they should haue affliction in the vvorlde But let vs searche the scriptures and trie hovve these Bishopprikes vvil stande After that our Sauioure is ascended they goe into Ierusalem all the Apostles togither they choose Mathie the Apostle After fiftye dayes they receiue the holy Ghost Peter conuerteth many After certaine dayes Peter and Iohn goe vppe in to the Temple they heale the lame they are put in prisone they are forbidden to preache anye more in the name of Iesus then they returne vnto the other Apostles and tary many daies togither working many miracles amoÌ„g the people in so much that the Cities round about resorted daily to Ierusalem to haue their sick and diseased healed Then again the Apostles are put in prison and God deliuereth theÌ„ and many dayes they preach in the temple and in euery house After this came a great persecution against the Church at Ierusalem in so much that they were all dispearsed sauing the Apostles Then at the laste after many dayes Peter is sent out of Ierusalem into Samaria where he preacheth in diuers townes about Thus farre good Reader thou seest plainly Peter is no bishop nor yet in any speciall authoritie when the other Apostles sende him out to preache Then he returneth againe to Ierusalem and this is one yeare after the death of our sauioure Christ as the histories do all agree in reporting the conuersion of S. Paule which was nowe done as appeareth Act. 9. This is the yeare of our Lord .35 In the yere of our Lord .38 He dwelleth in Ierusalem Gal. 1.18 Likewise in the yere of our Lorde .46 he is imprisoned at IerusaleÌ„ Act. 12.2 Againe in the yeare of our Lord .48 he is at the councel holden in Ierusalem Act. 15.7 from that day forward he giueth his faith vnto Paule and Barnabas that he will be an Apostle not to the Romaines but to the Iewes Gal. 2.9 vvhich truely he accompliâ—hed euen vntill his death and doubtlesse neuer came at Rome Now christian reader seing the scripture lieth thus that Peters aboade in Ierusalem after the conuersion of S. Paule Anno Domini .35 is recorded .iij. seuerall times And after the last time a couenaunt made that he woulde continue among the Iewes If I shall proue vnto thee that these seuerall times are rightly numbred according to the yeare of the Lorde that is that the first time was the .38 yeare the seconde time the .46 yeare the third time the .48 yeare and then in the meane while betwene the .35 yeare and the .38 likewise the .38 and the .46 and betwene the .46 and .48 that Peter was not in Rome last of all that he was true of his promise and after the .48 yeare came not at Rome then I trust thou wilt confesse with me that Peter was neuer .25 yeares Bishop of Rome But that all poperie as it is in it selfe nothing but lies so it is grounded wholly and altogither vpon lies First it is agreed vpon by all the thing is plaine in it self Paule was conuerted the yere of our Lord .35 TheÌ„ Paule himself writeth thus After three yeres I came to IerusaleÌ„ to see Peter and abode in his house .xv. dayes so this was the .38 yere of our Lord when Peter is first in IerusaleÌ„ When he was after imprisoned at Ierusalem Act. 12.2 that it was the .46 yeare of our Lorde it is proued thus The countreis about â–ª that is Tyre and Sidon were
then nourished with the kings prouision But that prouision Claudius made in the great famine ▪ the .4 yere of his raigne which was the yeare of our Lord .46 Againe immediatly after the scripture mēcioneth the death of Herode But Herode was made king in the first yeare of Caligula and raigned 7. yeare so he died in the .4 yeare of Claudius And consequently as is said the .46 yeare of our Lorde Peter being now in prison at Ierusalem and thus the seconde time that Peter is mencioned to be in Ierusalem is the .46 yeare of Christ. Afterward when the Apostles helde the councell in Ierusalem that it was the .48 yeare of our Lord it is proued by S. Paule who after he had mentioned his conuersion and his first going to Ierusalem whereof we spake before he saith thus Then after .14 yeres I went vp again to Ierusalem So it was the .48 yeare of our Lord this being .14 yeare after his conuersion and he conuerted in the .35 of our Lorde and thus it is proued that in the yeares of our Lord .35.38.46.48 Peter was in Ierusalē Now it resteth to proue that in the meane space Peter came not to Rome That he was not at Rome betwene the .35 and the .38 yeare I haue this profe In the yeare of our Lorde .37 Pilate wrote his letter◠vnto Tiberius the Emperor of Christ and of his doctrine and how the Iewes accompted him a God whereby the Emperoure was so moued that he wold nedes make Christ a God in Rome ▪ If Peter had bene in Rome Pilates letters had not ben necessary The Emperor should haue had better instruction Thus in those three yeares Peter was not in Rome Betwene the .38 yere and the .46 yeare they say suche is their impudencie that Peter was Bishop all the while at Antioche If it be so then by their owne confession he was not at Rome But the scripture is plain he was neither at Antioche nor yet at Rome And howe these 7. yeares are passed marke and thou shalt see In the beginning of these .7 yeares Peter goeth forth a preaching First into all Iury Galile and Samaria which wold require some cōtinuance Afterward he goeth vp to the saints at Lidda and there tarieth From thence he goeth to Ioppe and there tarieth dies multos a long while From thence he goth to Caesarea and ther couerted Cornelius the first gentile that euer he conuerted as is plain by the scriptures then he abideth certain dayes at Caesarea all this well nigh .400 miles from Antioche and now for profe he maketh no hast to Antioche he commeth home againe to Ierusalem where he is againe ioyned with the Apostles And now the Apostle heare word that certaine gentiles at Antioche are conuerted not by Peter but by the disciples that fled when Steuen was stoned Act. 7.60 8.1 Well did the holy ghost here name them that preached this while at Antioche or else here had ben some coloure for Peters bishoprike But marke further when the Apostles heare this to confirme the gentiles they send to Antioche But vvhome sende they Peter Sure they vvoulde haue done had he then bene their bishop but Peter abideth still in Ierusalem and Barnabas is sent to Antioche where he abideth after goth in to Tarsus to Paule from thēce they come againe bothe to Antioche and there tary afterwarde one whole yeare About this time saith the scripture Peter was put in prison which was as is proued the yeare of our Lord .46 And that he continued in Ierusalem euer since Barnabas was sent to Antioche we haue this coniecture When he was deliuered out of prison and knockt at Maries dores Rhoade the maide knewe him by his voice And so well that the Disciples said she was madde or else it was Peters angell Yet were the thing neuer so incredible she said she was sure it was euen he This perfecte knowledge of a mannes voyce required some continuaunce of acquaintaunce And thus we are come to the .7 yeare of his bishoprike of Antioche in which time he yet neuer came at Antioche Nowe the yeare of our Lord .46 the .4 of Claudius he goeth from Antioche to Rome and there is bishop .25 yeares 2. months .8 dayes from the .16 of Ianuary to the .24 of March Suche accompt I trow they make that tell vs how many mile it is to heauen But be it so he is gone out of the prisone in Ierusalem .2000 mile of to Rome to be made bishop If the story of dame Ioane were so incredible as this maister Harding vvith some countenaunce might haue written against it But let vs go foreward In the yeare of our Lorde .48 notwithstanding this posting to Rome he is yet at Ierusalem And from hēceforth that he ment not to goe to Rome but kepe his promise that he would continue among the Iewes we haue this profe First his othe where Iames Peter and Iohn doe sweare vnto Paule and Barnabas that they would execute their Apostleships among the Iewes Which sure Peter woulde not haue done if he had thought to haue gone to Rome and all the Papists in the world shall neuer be able to ansvver it iangle hovv they vvil that Peter vvas bishop of Rome He vvas not he ment it not he kept his promisse Paule calleth him the Apostle of circumcision He vvas aftervvarde among the Ievves at Antioche he vvryteth ▪ his Epistle to the Ievves that vvere straungers and scattered abroade in Asia euen as Iames dothe to the tvvelue Tribes scattered among the nations and Iohn to them that had heard and seene from the beginning vvhich vvere the Ievves Thus did those Apostles minde their promise though vve talke of bishopprikes vve knovve not vvhat But bicause there are yet three and twenty yeares behinde let vs as vve may examine them by the scriptures In the Actes vve read that Priscilla and Aquila and all the residue of the Ievves vvere banished out of Rome But this vvas done the .9 yeare of Claudius Anno Domini .51 When now Peter should haue bene more than .5 yeare bishop in Rome Thus yll may this fable agree vvith the scriptures of God But let vs examine it further About six yeares after this and the beginning of the raigne of Nero Paule wryteth his Epistle to the Romaines as appeareth for that he then caried vp to Ierusalem for the pore saints there abiding suche distribution as they of Macedonia and Achaia had gathered which was a little before Paules last going to Ierusalem as most writers agree in the last yeare of Claudius And for profe it was so now al things are quiet at Rome Paule saluteth Priscilla and Aquila which in the .9 of Claudius were bothe banished and the Actes doe specifie certaine yeares after in which Paule and they were togither So now being at Rome againe it agreeth wel that the Epistle to the
of the handes and casting vp of the eyes to heauen and with your lamentable crying out of your Oos which you vse very commonly weening thereby to perswade the simple your stoute asseuerations your fauour of the common people and others that clap you on the shoulder your vaine Pulpet buzzing your Gloria patri at Pauls crosse all this hath made many a one beleue that M. Iuell was a great Clarcke a piller of the Gospell a peerelesse fellow But now that you haue sayd all that you and your whole side had to say now that you haue discouered that lay hid before now that your best stoare is laid abroade now that you haue made the world witnesse of the proofes you haue for your doctrine they that haue but meane skill behold a further weakenesse to be on your side then before they had conceiued Better it had beene for you ye had mayntained your opinion and estimation among your own deceiued brotherhed with silence and with your accustomed craking without shewing forth any proofes Dering Now is M. Harding come to his pretye solace with one Megabises a great man of little name in his own deuice lyking him selfe well forceth much his eloquence as if the Owle were the fairest bird in the wood But we shoulde doe him much wrong to barre him of his pastime that hath nothing else to comfort himselfe withall His cause is nought his bookes are contemned his credite is lost and that whych gréeueth him most of all he hath made an vnequall matche In these extremities what if he vse his tongue at will Megabises he both can do but litle harme The one doth but milke an hée Goate while the other doth holde vnder a syue It is now no time to spreade abroade anye cunning to prooue my Lord of Sarisbury is not learned as long as his Replye lyueth and it shall lyue till his aduersaries be confounded Neither his square Cap nor his Rochet nor his sightly state nor his Bishopricke shall at all commende him We haue the testimonies of his minde which God hath made so bewtifull that all his other ornaments are knowen to be to fewe yet concerning his good estate I doe aunswere with Salomon God ouerthroweth the wicked and they are not but the houses of the righteous shall stand For thys description of hys maner of preaching first it becommeth Diogoras better than a Diuine Then what skilleth it though Zoilus or Zerophanes doe scoffe at Homer Pardon me M. Harding if I say the truth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is easier for you to mocke at it then to doe the like But what meane you thus bitterly to raile at his preaching Why iest you at his lamētacion for the peoples disobedience Haue you lost both your cause and your learning togither Uerily whē your Pope was Deane of S. Paules there was then neither lifting vp of handes nor bringing downe of hartes neither crying out of Oos nor inward grief of Iis neither yet gloria patri nor mors praedicata filij You might heare the heauens harmonie for anie pulpet noyse yet loftye descant within amonge the Balamites organe pipings at pleasure and although no pulpet yet goodly chauncell buzzing I maruail you durst make mention of his preaching But such is the blind mans hap that séeth not his way by making haste goeth ouer his shooes ere he be aware in the mire Hardyng ¶ Howe little truth you haue for your side and howe many vntruthes you haue vttered by your replie partlye by this Reioynder and more largely by the labours of other men it shalbe declared Dering Nowe after this long a doe what proofe bringeth Maister Harding against this Replie for sooth he referreth vs partly to this Reioinder partly to the bird in y e bush that is to other proofes that shall come hereafter I knowe not well in thys case what to write If I shoulde vnrippe this Reioynder and shew all the faultes it hath then os impudentia a bande of Louanistes cry out in the ayre of lyings corruptions misconstruings alterations and a thousand such other Some sende ouer their pamfletes some returne their vntruthes some whet leaden hatchets some séeke reall presence some make blinde discourses some hunt out their Purgatorie some fight for their images some stumble on their rocke and suche as can doe nothing else cry beware of M. Iuell But truth must not be still for feare of the sclaunderer God giue vs grace to take héede of thys Reioynder in vttering of an heresie it is more talking thā the Turtle in speaking out the truth more dumme than a Fish in auoiding authorities more winding than the Serpent in resisting Gods spirite more hard than yron in substance an open market of all maner of euill We that sée it doe giue God the prayse that maketh his truth to shine through so many cloudes They that fauour their doings may bewayle wyth Andromache lifting vp Astionax handes Spes nullas habet Troia si istas habet Troy hath no hope at all yf it haue no hope but this Concerning those other proofes that shall come hereafter I can say but this pro boscide vnius abscissa monstratum est mori posse belluas we know by this Reioynder all your other bookes are soone aunswered Harding ¶ As concerning your aunswere to my preface it is lyke the rest of your booke all together voyde of truth and plaine dealing c. that you haue discouered our wants therein you speake vntruly Dering Now is M. Harding come to the defence of his Preface and as his manner is blaming M. Iuels whole writing reioyneth as hée séeth good where it liketh him best and first boldlye ynough denieth that M. Iuell coulde discouer anye wants on their side But alas this is but a bragge Is there no want on their side Why then doth he handle his friends so vngentlie Why turneth he them ouer to their owne defence Why dissent they one from an other If perhaps he say their Church hath no wants his owne fellowes are against him Scotus sayth the Churche hath somewhere the harder part Their Councels conclude some one against an other some against the Apostles them selues Their Popes haue extremelye hated one an other in suche sorte as neuer Turke or Infidell hath done the like Yea such is the impudencie of their Church and so little account they make of disagrement that they would make Christes Apostles teache one contrary to other The .6 Canon and the .40 Canon and the .50 Canon of the Apostles alow the mariage of priestes the .25 Canon forbiddeth them to marrye The .80 Canon of the Apostles doth straightlye charge and commaunde that no Bishop or Priest do debase him selfe to any worldlye labour and alledge for their purpose this scripture No man can serue two maisters And yet the cōstitutions of the same Apostles doe quite contrary and commaund that the Priests do labour vsing their own example of which some were
doth not direct your goyngs and therefore you make suche often reaches at hatred What preiudice should Maister Iuell bring vnto your cause which of it selfe is weake and of all Godly men forsaken What harme vnto your person whose returne should be his exceding ioye and whose obstinacy is the encrease of his commendations Bicause say you in the person of an other he putteth you in remembrance from whence you be fallen Why M. Harding are you offended to heare of your euyll doyng Uerilye the wise man sayth He that refuseth instruction despyseth his own soule But what speaketh this person whom you meane vnto M. Harding not long since c. O custome of euill speaking what a pleasure doost thou bring vnto the euill disposed person We haue hearde often of Maister Iuells raiâ—inges and scoffings euery leafe of his vncourteous dealing a long common place of his bitter kinde of writing After so much a doo seing there will be required some proofe he séeketh busylye and when he can finde none he maketh the greatest leape though there be many very wyde that is in the reioinder euen out of this preface quite ouer the Replie in to the conclusion and there he hath found a poore man which asketh a question which hath set him in these fiery passions what is there in such manner dealing but either singular impudeÌ„ce or extreme foly Beare yet with him good Reader Barre him of these leapings and all his pastime is done But let vs heare what Maister Harding can aunswere to this poore man Thus Maister Iuell maketh him speake vnto Maister Harding Not long since you taught them of our side the Gospell euen in like sorte and fourme as it is tought now Here Maister Harding bicause he can make no good aunswere thinketh it not amisse to stop this pore mans mouth with a litle sophestrie You taught vs sayth this poore man the Gospell By this saith Maister Harding you doo vs to wéete what your gospell is and wherin it consisteth Blame not this poore man though he can say no more I haue béen a scholar almost this twentye yeares and yet I can not sée what this aunswere meaneth They must be Lâ—nces eyes and such as can looke through milstones that can sée this conclusion very déepe cogitations must go so far into sentences and a man had néede of a warme nightcap that should folow them But seyng we can get no better aunswer the poore mans saying shall stande still for true and Maister Hardings obscure gatherings shall verifie the coÌ„mon saying that it is better to saye nothing then to holde ones peace In the ende Maister Harding denieth that he euer spake these woordes wherby he doth empayre his credit in all other matters Let the Christian reader for his contentation when time and occasion may serue enquire of any that then liued in Oxâ—orde This simple way may not countervaile so many witnesses Hardyng ¶ To answere to the matter simply and truly as before God I will not here for my better excuse accuse the will of the Prince in whose dayes I was brought vp in learning the ernest endeuour of the Gouernours then being to satisfie his desires the crueltye of the lawes the yeelding of all in generall except a very fewe the great silence of preachers that then durst not teach necessaries the common ignorance of men Omittingâ— all these which I might bring for some part of excuse I am content for truthes sake freely to accuse my selfe In certaine points I was deceiued I confesse by Caluin Melancthon and a few others as you by them and sundrye others are nowe deceiued in many Dering Now he commeth to the simple and true aunswere for hys turning but he turneth so many members in one sentence that he turneth all sense quite out of the periode Perhappes he thinketh he speakes to the poore man againe therefore he speaketh in riddles Or if it bee not so the truth I trowe breaketh out And againe he accuseth the iniquitie of those dayes but his darke hart cannot abide the light straight he starteth backe againe and is content to take the fault vnto him selfe bicause all other excuses are vayne and vngodlye And as well as he can in so great a storme he runneth vnder the couering of S. Augustines auctoritie but it may not helpe him sithe their turnings are not like Saint Augustine turned from traditions vnto scripture but he turneth from the scripture vnto traditions Againe S. Augustine turned from the vayne trust that he had in man vnto the sure confidence that is fixed in Christ. But he is slidden away euen from Christ to sée how farre men haue established hys aucthoritie This is true as his own conscience doth iudge and hys writings doe testifie when vnder the name of the Churche he gâ—eth from the woord of God Therefore is his turning neyther modestie nor repentance but a shamelesse falling away and an obstinate forsaking of God God giue him grace herein to iudge him selfe that in the day of wrath he be not iudged of the Lord. Harding ¶ Now as to confesse this much truth requireth so to acknowledge your false reportes wisdome forbiddeth Them would I haue also not let to coÌ„fesse if I wist God were delited with our lies Wher then you say I taught your Gospell euen in like sorte and forme in al respects as it is taught now that I deny vtterly In dede I hobde and roued sometimes but your pricks I euer tooke to be to farre for me to shoote at Neither trulye coulde I see the marke that you M. Iuell and suche as you are shot at it was so farre of and therefore I stoode out and shot smaller game Dering Now after this confession made you go as you say from the truth to your wisdome and tel vs in what sorte you preached the Gospell You say you hobde and roued but you neuer shot at any certaine marke Why were you one of Baals prophets that haulted on both sides that woulde serue both God and Mammon too That eate meate with the Gentiles and yet dissemble it before the Iewes The waueryng is vnconstant in all his wayes and bicause thou art neyther hoate nor colde I will spue thée out of my mouth sayth the Lord This hobbing was the cause that you fell agayne to your vomit And this rouing euer since made your shooting vncertaine You could not sée the marke that M. Iuell shootes at the vale of colde deuotion was before your eyes You looked euen now like an Eagle in the poore mans question But nowe you haue oyled your blere eyes that you can not sée Christ. God lighten your eyes that you sléepe not styll in death You stoode without you say and shot smaller game in déede you shot such game as was not worth your labour At the imaginations of mans brayne you roued so muche vncertainly that you shoote yet now beating the ayre Therfore haue you eyes and sée not c. There be
Apostle commeth iudgement Here is no colour of shift least except they wil say after death that is when the generall daie of iudgement shall bée And if this might serue then had they somewhat to saye But S. Iohn hath preuented such wrestinge of scriptures After death as he teacheth is immediatly as soone as we be with God for this he writeth Blessed ar the deade which dye in the Lorde from henceforth saith the spirit they rest from their labour No labour abideth any more for them after death immediatlye they are receiued into ioy and their workes doe follow them And this present ioy of the godlye is likewyse specified where the same Apostle writeth that an hundred fourty and foure thousand did stande with the lambe in y e mount Sion meaning the elect which wer w t Christ in his kingdome An hundreth such other places there are in the scripture which testifie of our estate after death and do quite ouerthrowe the Popes purgatory Nowe for the better contentation of the Reader it were worth the labour to answere to al those places of the scripture in which they make so many blinde gesses at purgatory The places are Math. 5.26 c. 12.32 c. 18 34. Luc. 12.59.16.19 l. Co. 3.15 Phil. 2.10 Apo. 5.15 But read these places who list in the feare of God and true desire of knowledge he can by no imaginations haue one gesse at purgatory and yet for the establishing of such a doctrine it had bene requisite they could haue shewed euen the name for the interpretation of other men be they neuer so olde We may saye with the Apostle Euery man aboundeth in his own vnderstanding but no man knoweth the thinges that are Gods saue God alone and his woorde if we will not be deceiued must be our onelye guider But they haue one place 2. Mach. 12.44 in plaine words that it is good to pray for the dead if that booke be of able autority We rede likewise of one Razias an Elder of Ierusalem which first ran vpon his own sworde and when he missed of his stroke he ranne to the top of the wall and threwe him selfe downe among the multitude and yet hauing life in him went to the top of an highe rocke and pulled out his owne bowels and threwe them among the enimies and for this doing he is commended So by the authoritye of the same booke a man maye kill himselfe which Maister Harding him selfe I trowe will not constantly affirme yet this being scripture it might not be doubted Againe the same author saith If I haue done well and as the story requireth it is the thing that I desired But if I haue spoken slenderly and basely it is that I coulde These Iffes and Andes are not of that spirit which hath written the scriptures Thus doubting of his own ability besemeth not the holy ghost Beside this the gréeke in the same place is so corrupt that scarce any sense coulde be made of it And Ioseph ben Gorion out of whom that story semeth to be gathered in the same place doth quite leaue out this praying for the dead But it maye be that in those dayes some ignoraunt Iewes vpon an vnwyse deuotion did thinke it good to praye for the deade and likewise to praye againe vnto them that they would helpe vs. Which if it were so by such meanes this place might come into the Machab. And that some did thinke thus thoughe they were alwayes otherwyse instructed it appereth by one manifest place which is read in Philo Iudeus where he writeth the death of Debora who made a godly exhortatiō to hir people before she dyed For afterward they should finde no repentaunce There some made aunswere vnto hir Ecce nunc mater moreris ora itaque pro nobis post recessum tuum erit anima tua memor nostri in sempiternum Praye for vs after thy departure and let thy soule be mindefull of vs for euer To whom Debora maketh aunswere Adhuc viuens homo potest orare et pro se pro filijs suis post finē autem non poterit exorare nec memor esse alicuius yet while a man is liuing he may pray for him selfe and for his children but whan he is deade he can neyther intreate nor be mindeful of any And it followeth your similitude then shal be like the starres of heauen which are now manifest in you Hereby we sée what iudgement the common people mighte haue in such matters And yet howe the godly did otherwise instruct them reade this place thou shalt finde it so plaine that no wrangling may shift it of but nedes we must confesse that it teacheth vs that we ought neither to praye vnto saintes to help vs neyther yet agayne can we helpe them when they be gone Wherby it appeareth what manner of archer Maister Harding hath ben that could not shoote at so plaine a marke But he did shoote at his own dreames and so he lighted on Purgatorie Yet there follow a great many of markes at the which M. Hardyng could neuer shoote home The first is that the masse and our Communion is one wyth that marke sayth he I was neuer acquaynted Hys loose without doubt is very ill or he shooteth to low a compasse or else he draweth not close For M. Stapleton that shooteth with the same bow and arrowes hitteth this marke euen at the first The Masse and the Communion saith he duelye ministred is all one and it is folly to thinke any contradiction betwéene the Communion and the Masse Thus it appeareth M. Harding is a verye wrangler that wyll not shoote at that marke which his owne fellowes finde An other marke that M. Harding could neuer shoote at is this that Eucharistia doth signifie not the Sacrament but common bread I maruail he could neuer shoote at this marke For sith he began first that babling aunswere to M. Iuels learned Challenge he hath alwaye bene hobbing among those marks wher this is one though he neuer shot at the selfe same yet hath he seldome shot but at such like For it is a marke of slaundering and a marke of lying at whych marke as well in this Reioynder as other where M. Harding most commonly doth shoote very nere I neuer said saith he that Eucharistia was common breade but the sacrament This marke I could neuer sée In déede no maruail for who can well sée the thing that is not But you father this saying vpon Maister Iuell which reporte is all togither vntrue and slaunderous and in shootinge at this marke you drawe maruailous cleane and haue good deliuery be it prickes or rouers you haue measured the ground so oft that you knowe what to shoote But I pray you M. Harding where sayth M. Iuell thus What be his woordes Wher are they to be foūd Thinke you notwithstanding your oft vntrue demeanour that you can discredite your aduersary vpon your bare word The
cause why he was conuerted or rather peruerted And in that he is not constant as he was before in his Religion the grace of God saith he and the study of more matures yeares did instruct me otherwise This cause doth sufficiently confute it selfe For Maister Harding chaunged his Religion in seuen dayes in which he had not many yeares to study ▪ nor yet quiet time to deliberate Héere followeth a little iesting at the name of Ministers and vngodly Metaphores to the defacing of their preaching all not woorth the aunswere And in déede who so would scoure away all that froth from his writinges should leaue him in most places nothing but white paper Harding ¶ What I should haue done and how farre I should haue gone in case Gods prouidence had not changed that state he sawe to whom nothing is vnsene And perhaps in continuance of time I should haue ioined further with you except his speciall grace had called me backe and seuered me from you What soeuer in those dayes I thought or said amisse our Lorde forget and forgeue Verye like it is had not the condition of that time bene altered that I shoulde haue thought and said worse then I did and haue bene carried away further But nowe I see what great cause I haue to reioyce and thank God who vsed the change of the time as an occasion and meane whereby to chaunge me vnto the better For whiles I feared to suffer that I would not by new condition of the time I was compelled to seeke the truth which before I knew not and willingly to holde that which before I refused Dering In this paragraphe before Maister Harding saith that the grace of God more mature yeares did better instruct him But he had little hope to finde many yeares in seuen dayes therfore now he saith that Gods especial grace the change of the Prince did change him also So y t whether of both did helpe many yeares in a weeke or the change of a Prince he hath called God to witnes to a lye But let it be the change of the time did change Maister Harding yet let him not ascribe it vnto God which is his owne euill doing Surely for the Minister to turne sodenly with the worlde it is an vnwéented kinde of calling and such as the holy Ghost hathe left none in example But you defend your selfe with S. Aug. saying True it is a man may be brought vnto Christ through feare of punishment else why serueth authority Yet as this liked you in S. Aug. to know it might be done so may it please you also in y e same Epistle to know how it is done S August saith ac sic ista cogitatione docibiles facti non in calumnijs et fabulis humanis sed in diuinis libris promissam per omnes gentes inuenirent eccleziam that by this due consideration of earthlye punishment we being made apt for instruction not in mens wranglinges and deuyses but in the heauenly bookes we shoulde finde the church promysed through all the world This péece Maister Harding hath concealed For in his turn he did not séeke for the church in Gods Scriptures but in mens tradicions Therfore he is little helped by S. Augustine Nay he doth rather shew y e cause why Maister Harding is now so obdurate quam multos saith he obduratae consuetudinis graue vinculū colligabat how many hath the heauy yoake of olde custome tyed togither that it might be fulfilled in them the froward seruant shall not be amended with the woorde of God so that he not clayming his turne by the aduertisement of the scriptures but cleauyng fast vnto olde custome hath deliuered him selfe from thys helpe of S. Augustine Héere he maketh a long discourse of his priuate doings impertinent to his priuate Masse which I can not meddle with bicause I know them not Harding ¶ If I may be beleued telling that of my selfe which I my self God know best this is the truth My errour was of ignoraunce not of malice My vnderstanding was obscured my will was not of selfe purpose peruerted Wherin I offended it was not so much through malice of will as through want of skill I did not with animositie as S. Augustine calleth it mainteine what lyked my priuate choise but ignorauntly I receiued what guilefully the condition of the time obtruded Dering Here M. Harding vpon better aduise assigneth yet agayne the third cause of hys turning He hath nowe forsaken better instruction by mature yeares he taketh holde no more of the chaunge of the Prince but for his more commendation saith he was turned by prayer I trow by saying our Ladies Mattines this cause bicause it is the best cause he setteth it out with his best maner of writing and with the dissolute figure sometyme speaking ryme sometyme hauing no reason he concludeth this third cause that is héere alleadged But what néedeth this any long aunswer If his errour wer ignorance how got he so spéedy knowledge If his vnderstāding wer obscured how was it so quickly lightned What bookes red he who was his teacher Hath he found so many miracles for his priuate Masse that he woulde haue vs wéene he was turned by a Miracle Yet he saith it soothly that his offence was not so muche through malice of wyll as through want of skyll Now verily M. Harding this like falling figure falleth in this place quite out of order This other repetition about the sayings of our sauiour Christ séeke and you shall finde c. hath preatie turning in wordes but M. Harding in hys lyfe hath turned himselfe quite from them Hardyng ¶ That I proceded no farther in errour it was the goodnes of God who with his mercifull hand stayde me backe from running to the extremitie that you be run vnto Dering Nowe M. Harding can shewe no good cause of his falling awaye in to the power of darknesse it liketh him to gesse what brought him so farre into the kingdome of light For séeing by his hobs and rouers his hart was not vpright toward God he can not iudge why he was estemed such a preacher of his Gospell But this gessing at his going forwarde is as vayne as the causes of his returne haue bene found vnconstant Satan can turne him selfe in to an Angell of light to make his Ministers thinke they doe God good seruice The idolatrous Israelites would séeme to séeke God daylye euen as a nation that did righteously and had not forsaken the statutes of their God So M. Harding would faine haue his turning for his more humilitie and hys suddaine reuolting for his further well doing But what néedeth so busie searche in so playne a matter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his own hobbing and double dealing made God giue him ouer to his old idolatries out of which before of his frée mercie he had drawen him So let M. Harding séeke no farther cause His iniquities haue seperated betwene him and his
them againe some drop should go downe his throte and so he should breake his fast But I will let passe these high points disputed in their Canon law and greatest doctors and of this that is sayd I desire the christian reader to iudge whether these wordes are vntrue that a priest may saye two or thrée Masses in one day The. B. of Saris. Concerning consecration he doth great wrong to charge vs with the breach of it before hee him selfe and other of his side are better resolued wherein consecration standeth For Scotus and Innocentius the .3 say that this word benedixit worketh consecration Harding The .56 vntruth VVe are resolued herein The .57 vntruth Scotus and Innocentius say it not Dering Maister Harding to make his vntruthes very common vseth such Logick as is very rare Where the antecedent argument do hang togither he maketh them both vntrue Wel may this doing haue credite among the simple but when the learned doe sée it they do easily say that these vntruthes haue more consideration of number than regarde of good matter and substance But let vs take them as they be the folly of the vntruthmaker shall the more appeare We are sayth maister Harding fully resolued herein that is wherein consecration standeth It is pitie that his worde hath not the Popes priuiledge that it might not erre He neuer wanteth audacitie to denie at aduentures whatsoeuer mislyketh him He sayth in consecration we are all agréed but Marcilius one of his owne doctors saith it is not so Whether of these say true it shal appeare hereafter We agrée sayth maister Harding that consecration of the bread and wine is wrought by these wordes hoc est corpus meuÌ„ this is my body and hic est sanguis meus this is my bloud And of this iudgement is their Pope holye patriarche Saint Peter Lumbarde yet the whole counsell of of Florence say consecration is wrought with all the wordes togither as they lye The chapter of Coleine say these words are not sufficient without the Canon of the Masse Saint Augustine sayth it is wrought with the word of fayth which we preach Saint Ambrose saith these wordes accipite comedite take and eate are part of consecration So haue these men the councell of Florence the chapter of Coleine Saint Augustine and Saint Ambrose against them Now let vs sée how they agrée among themselues Scotus sayth in finall resolution Dico breuiter ê™ non est nobis traditum certitudinaliter an ad formam coÌ„secraâ—ionis sanguinis partineant aliqua verba post illud sanguis meus vel an aliquot illoruÌ„ sequentiuÌ„ vlque illuc hoc facite â–ª c. Ideo periculosum est hoc asserere de quo sufficiens authoritas non habetur I say briefly that we haue no assurance at all whether any other wordes appertaine vnto consecration of the bloud after this is once said this is the cup of my bodie or whether the residue wordes following be part of consecration or no vntill it is sayd take and drinke c. Therefore it is daungerous 〈◊〉 affirme anye thing where you haue no sufficient authoritie And it followeth in Scotus and by this it is manifest they speake vndoscretly which say it is necessary to know in euery sacrament what are the precise and very words of consecration He saith further Let no man say I will vse these precise wordes simplicitie is much surer And vpon this he remoueth a doubt that if the priest should say this is my body and say nothing of that which gooth before we ought not to worship it but on this condicion if it be consecrate And these are Scotus verye wordes iudge now whether he agrée with Peter Lumbarde or whether he be resolued what to say or whether Maister Harding be not past shame that so boldely writeth of all the men that euer wrote maister Iuel might worst haue alleaged Scotus And that all Catholike be fully resolued in this For a larger proufe let vs yet examine it a little further Gabriel Biel expounding the Canon of the Masse ouer these wordes benedixit fregit he writeth ouer benedixit consecrando ouer fregit non panem sed panis speciem so by Biels opinion Christ did consecrate with benedixit he blessed Ludulp de Saxonia and Ihnocentius 3. agréeth with Gabriel Biel. Thomas and Bonauentura say that Christ spake these words twise hoc est corpus meum and so consecrated by them when he pronounced them first secretly Then thus farre M. Hardings doctors doe not well agrée Alexander de ales knoweth not well what to say he sayth in one place Christus dixit bis Christ spake the wordes of consecration twise Afterward he sayth consecrauit nos quo modo nescimus he did consecrate we know not howe Lastly he sayth virtus erat in manibus there was a secrete power in his handes This Doctor is much like Scotus he knoweth not what to say Marciliê° saith how Christ did coÌ„secrate doctores diuersimode dicunt doctors are of diuers minds Some sayd he consecrated without pronouncing any wordes Thus euery man speaking his fansie not guided by the worde of God they walke in darknesse and can not tell whither they go But Maister Harding will say though they can not agrée how Christ did consecrate yet they are fully agréed how themselues doe consecrate This as is before aleaged out of Scotus is not true But before I shew their diners opinions I would demaund of some of maister Hardings friendes howe a good conscience may be satisfied concerning this matter How Christ did consecrate as appeareth they do not agrée and so much maister Harding graunteth and vpon this Scotus sayth Intendebant narrare rem gestam non tradere formam consecrationis The Euangelists intended to set forth the storie not to leaue vnto vs any forme of consecration And Marcilius sayth nullus Euangelistarum nèc etià m Apostolus videtur hanc formam vidisse None of the Euangelists neyther yet the Apostles séeme to haue gyuen our forme of consecration Here I make this reason The Scriptures beare witnesse of Christ and how his body was made but the scriptures beare no witnesse of consecration therefore by their consecration his body is not made Againe consecration being of such force that they themselues confesse their host should no time be worshipped but with condicion if it be wel consecrate and yet this consecration is not taught vs by the scriptures howe is the saying of our sauiour Christ true that the holy ghost should teach vs all truth or how hath Saint Luke fulfilled his promise that sayd he would write of all things euen from poynt to poynt Againe where maister Harding sayth and commonly his other doctors holde that Christ did consecrate by these wordes this is my body if they wil stand to that for ought y t I sée they ouerthrow their owne Masse Christ did breake y e breade