diuers others were of the true Church of God of which poynt peruse S. Austin Furthermore Irenaeus saith that theare were diuers CouÌ„tryes of Christians which beleiued only by preaching and by force of Tradition without enioying any Scripture at all And it is certaine that after our Sauiours passion theare was a distance of tyme before any part of the New Testament was written And after when it was penned what partly by violence of persecution and partly through scarsity of Manuscripts the New Testament could but come to the hands of few in respect of the whole number of Christians then in being which being true how then could the Scripture or the preaching of the Word be a knowne Marke to all other Christians of those dayes Neyther auayleth it heere to reply that whatsoeuer was then deliuered by Tradition was agreeing and answerable to what was afore or after written by the Apostles Euangelists This satisfyeth not the point seing admitting so much for true yet what was then deliuered was receaued by the hearers through the authority only of the Church and not by Note or direction of the Scripture which is the point here concrouerted But to proceede further I do aueâ—re that this Position of erecting the preaching the word for a Note for the ignorant to fynd out the true Church implyeth in it selfe an absolute contradiction The reason is this First euery true Note of anything must first be knowne it selfe to the party so ignorant and doubting But it is impossible that the true preaching of the Word should be knowne to one as long as he conâ—nues ignorant or doubâ—fâ—ll therefore it is impossible that to such a man the true preaching of the Word should become a Note of the Church Seconâ—ly True sayth is no sooner knowne but that withall the true Church is knowne Therefore true preaching of the Word from whence springs true sayth cannot be any Note of the Church Since that thing of which any Note is giuen ought not to be coincident with the Note but is to be knowne after the Note is knowne and not immediatly at oâ—â— and the same tyme with the Note seing the end of the Note is after to know a thing of which it is a Note My last argument here vsed shal be taken from the consideration of the obscurity and difficulty in generall of the Protestant Note here giuen For if the Scripture be in it selfe most sublime abstruse and the sense thereof impenetrable without Gods directing grace therein how then can it be obtruded for a Note of the Church not only to the learned but to the illiterate and vnlearned Now that the Scripture is most difficult is a point acknowledged by all learned men and prooued by senerall Media First because the Scripture is authenticall only in the originalls according to those words of D. Whitakers Nullam nos editionem nisi Hebraicam in vetere Graecam 〈◊〉 Nouo Testamentâ— authenâ—â—cam facimus This being admitted how can the ignorant in the Hebrew and Greeke tongues know which is true Scripture or which is the true sense of the Scripture Yf it be replyed that they are to know true Scripture from the Translations of it I say hereto that besydes no Translation of Scripture â—s authenticall Scripture both in the former Doctours iudgement as also in the censure of D. Couell seing there are many Translations made of Scripture by the Protestants and one mainly differing from an other and accordingly eich such translation is charged as Hereticall and erroneous by other Protestants the ignorant in the tongues cannot discerne which translation among so many is the truest And as touching the English Translation in particular it is thus condemned by the Protestants themselues A Translation which taketh away from the text which addeth to the Text and that sometymes to the changing or obscuring of the meaning of the Holy Ghost And yet more A Translation which is absurd and senselesse peruerting in many places the meaning of the Holy Ghost Now then if the ignorant who can but reede is thus stabled how shall all they do who cannot reede at all And yet to all such Men God who would haue all men saued hath left some meanes for their direction to find out the true Church which meanes must be sutable to their capacity and in themselues infallible seeing otherwise they cannot produce true fayth without which the vnlearned cannot be saued The like difficulty of the scripture appeareth not only from the seeming contrary places of the scripture one text in shew of words impugning an other all which to reconcyle though in themselues they are reconcileable there is no small difficulty But also euen from the many Comments of the scripture made euen by the Protestants For if the scripture be easy and facill to what end do theÌ„selues bestow such labour and paynes in illustrating of it And if it be of such difficulty as that it needeth Commentaryes for it further explanation how then can the true sense of it be prostituted especially to the vnlearned as a true Note of the Church Lastly the difficulty of the sense of the scripture is so great as that it selfe needeth other more cleere Notes as I may call them to make it selfe knowne without which Notes it selfe resteth most doubtfull And yet are these second Notes in themselues most vncertaine The Notes for the finding out of the true sense of the scripture are in D. g Reynolds and D. h Whitakers iudgments these following Reading of the Scripture Conference of Places weâ—gâ—â—â—g the Circumstances of the text Skill in 〈…〉 gues Prayer c. In the obseruation of all which a Man stands neuerthelesse subiect to errour and false construction of the scripture euen by the iudgment of D. Whitakers thus saying Qâ—â—lâ—à â—llâ—mediâ— suâ—â— c. Such as the meanes of iâ—terpreting the obscuâ—e places of the scripture are such also is the interpretation but them 〈…〉 es of inâ—â—â—p eâ—ing obscure places are incerta dubià ambigua vncertaine doubtfull and ambâ—guous Therefore it necessarily followeth that the interpretation it selfe is vncertaine si incerta tunc potest esse f 〈…〉 sa and if it be vncertaine then may it be false Thus farre D. Whitakers Now I referre to any Mans impartial iudgment how the true preaching of the Word which euer presupposeth the true sense thereof can be a certaine and infallible Note of the true Church when itselfe necessarily â—elyeth vpon meanes as Notes of it which meanes are in themselues vncertaine and at the most can affoard but a doubtfull and perhapps a false construction of the Scripture And here now I can but commisserate our aduersaries who seing themselfs enuiâ—oned in these strayts touching the finding out of the true sence of the Scripture by Men vnlearned vnskilfulle in the tongues and perhaps not able to reade and consequently touching this their mayntayned Note of the Church are â—â—nally and for their last
life vpon Priests and the Cleargy MICHEAS I do not know in what age ech of these Fathers did liue I being more conuersant in the Genealogies of our ancient Prophets and Iews then in the Centuries or ages of the Fathers of Christs Church Neuertheles Reason and true discourse informes me that grauÌ„ting all or most of these former alleadged Fathers to haue liued before Siricius as you my Lord do auouch and M. Doctour doth not deny then in regard of their former produced testimonies against the Marriage of Priests it cannot be conceaued how Siricius was the first who annexed perpetuall chastity to Priest-hood But if it please you M. Doctour proceed to other instaÌ„ces D. WHITAKERS The first Councell of Nice forbiddeth Marriage of Priests in these words Priests are not to haue dwelling with them any Woman other then their Mother Sister their Fathers Sister their Mothers Sister Now these words shew an Innouation of this Doctrine touching Priests not marrying different from the former liberty left to them by Christ CARD BELLARM. I will not much insist how this instance ouerthroweth the former instance of Siricius Seing it is impossible that both the Councell and Siricius they being in different times should be the first impugners of Priests Marriage But to come to your example The CannoÌ„ of Nice here alleadged doth not bring in any Innouation of Priests not marrying but onely in regard of some negligence afore vsed by some of the Cleargy in not precisely obseruing the Apostles Doctrine herein doth for the greater caution Decree that the said Women no others should liue in the howses with Priests Now that the Doctrine of Priests single life was more ancient then the Decree appeareth from the words of Paphnutius then present at the Councell who though perhaps he was perswaded that Priest-hood did not dissolue Marriage afore contracted yet he saith plainely Those who are made Priests before they are married cannot after marry And this the said Paphnutius calleth Veteram Ecclesiae traditionem so farre Paphnutius was from ascribing it to the Nicene Councell as to the first authour therof But proceede on forward M. Doctour D. WHITAKERS It is manifest that he who first deliuered Purgatory for a certaine Doctrine was Gregory the Great And this my owne reading assureth me MICHEAS M. Doctour Here I must make bold to interpose my iudgment And truely I can hardly be induced to thinke prayer for the dead which necessarily resulteth out of the Doctrine of Purgatory to be an Innouation much lesse the Doctrine therof to be first inuented by the Father whome you style Gregory the Great who and at what time he liued I knowe not My reason is this I am assured both by my owne practise and perusing of our Iewish bookes that prayer for the dead was euer vsed in our Synagogues and is practised by vs Iewes euen to this day And here supposing that the Booke of the Machabees be but Apocriphall yet it is acknowledged by all that the Histories there recorded are true Histories Now there we read that Iudas Machabeus the vndowbted seruant of God commanded prayers and sacrifices to be made for the dead Souldiers vpon which Act it is there said So he made a reconciliation for the dead that they might be deliuered from sinne This Doctrine with vs Iewes was so generall as that to omit all other ancient Rabbins teaching the same Rabby Simeon a learned Iew and who liued before Christ thus writeth of those who are temporally punished after this life After they are purged from the filth of their sinnes then doth God cause them to ascend out of that place But pardon me for inserting my sentence herein CARD BELLARM. Worthy Rabby You haue spoken truely and indeede as the ancient practise of the Iewes doth free the Doctrine and vse of praying for the dead from the staine of Nouelty in the new Testament so these Authorities and acknowledgmeÌ„ts following do wholy subuert the former Instance of Gregory the Great And first we find S. Augustine who liued long before Gregory thus to say Non est dubit andum c. It is not to be doubted but that the dead are much helped by the healthfull Sacrifice of the Holy Church and by almes giuen for their sonles and that by these meanes God doth deale more mercifully with them then their sinns haue deserued And in another place the sayd Father Neque negaudum est defunctorum animas pietate suorum viuentium releuari cum pro illis sacrificium mediatoris offertur It cannot be dented but that the soules of the dead are releeued through the pyety of their liuing freinds when the Sacrifice of the Mediatour is offered vp for them D. WHITAKERS Many learned Protestants do holde that Augustine did rest doubtfull of the being of a Purgatory among whoÌ„ D. Fulke that learned man doth so write CARD BELLARM. They do ascribe a doubtfull hesitation to Augustine in this Article only for the better defence of their contrary Doctrine Therfore for the greater euidence herein obserue the free acknowledgmeÌ„ts of the learned Protestants themselues passed not onely vpon Augustine but vpon other ancient Fathers Thus M. Doctour you shall be herein deadly wounded by the penns of your owne Brethren and thus may our Sauiours wordes be verified in you mans Enemies shal be they of his owne household And first D. Fulke himselfe howsoeuer you alleadge him to the contrary speaking of Aerius thus sâ—ieth Aerius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnes Epiphanius Augustine Also the said Doctour confesseth more liberally of this point thus writyng Tertullian Augustine Cyprian Herome and a great many more do witnes that Sacrifice for the dead is the tradition of the Apostles Which point M. Doctour being graunted and admitting there were no expresse Scripture for this Doctrine but only warranted by tradition yet may the conscience of euery good Christian be secured herein Finally Caluin thus writeth of the former point touching the antiquity of prayer for the dead ante trecentos annos vsu receptum fuit vt praecationes fierent pro mortuis c. sed fateor in errorem arrepti fuerunt Within three hundred yeres after Christ it was in vse to procure prayers to be made for the dead c. But the performers thereof were led into an errour Thus much touching Augustine and the times afore him Now froÌ„ the perusall of these Confessions I much wonder M. Doctour how you blushed not to obtrude the beginning of praier for the dead vpon Gregory the Great who liued diuers hundred ages after all the former Fathers were dead D. WHITAKERS Howsoeuer my L. Card. you seeke to auoyd my former Instances yet what answere can you make touching Pope Victor who was the first that exercized iurisdiction vpon foraine Churches which sentence of mine is also approued by my former learned Brother D. Fulke from which example
and temporary respects of riches and preferments are so potent and forcible with them as that they câ—nnot or at least they will not be induced to follow the Dictamen and resolution of their owne Iudgments If the subiect of your discourse be about the abstruse Misteries of the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist or of some other such sublime points you shall hardly draw them to relinquish naturall reason so deepely are they immersed therein it being indeed their Pillar of Non plus vltra Thus where other Christians enioy two eyes the one of Faith the other of Nature These Polyphemi shutting that of Faith do looke vpon the Articles of Religion only with this of Nature Choose rather to dispute touching matter of fact with in which may be included the proofe of the truth or falshood of the Protestant Religion then touching any dogmaticall point of faith and doctrine as receiuing it proofe from the scripture This I speake not but that the scripture makes most clearly for the Catholicks and against the Protestants But because your aduersary in dispute will euer cauill at your exposition of Scripture reducing it in the end against all antiquity of Fathers and tradition of the Church to the interpretation of his owne priuate and reuealing spirit and so your labour would prooue commonly to be lost thereby Now in matter of fact your Aduersary is forced to stand to the authorities deduced froÌ„ Ecclesiasticall Histories and other such humane proofes and therfore he must either shape a pro bable if not a sufficient answere to them which he neuer can do they wholy making against him euen by his owne learned brethrens Confessions or els he must rest silent And this is the reason why the Protestants are so loath to dispute of the Church since this Question comprehendeth in it selfe diuers points of fact as of it continuall Visibility Antiquity Succession Ordination and Mission of Pastours c. All which QuestioÌ„s receiue their proofes from particuler Instances warranted by shewing the particular times persons and other circumstances concerning matter of fact An other reason of this your choyse of your subiect of dispute may be in that few Men and those only schollers can truly censure of the exposition of scripture whereas almost euery illiterate man enioying but a reasonable capacity is able sufficiently to iudge of the testimonies produced to prooue or disprooue matter of fact And here I would wish you that in your dispute you labour to haue some Catholicks present for where all the Auditory are Protestants certaine it is that they will voice it against you howsoeuer the disputatioÌ„ may otherwise go But because these obseruatioÌ„s are ouer generall I will giue you here some more particuler since most of them may be restrained to certain particular passages which may occurre betweene you and your disputant Aduersary 1. First then let the true state of the Question discussed of be set downe and acknowledged on both sides in regard of the often willfully mistaken doctrine of the Catholicks That done reduce the question disputed of to as few branches as you can since multiplicity of Points is more subiect to confusion and forgetfulnes and giueth greater liberty to extrauagant digressions And will your Aduersary to auoid all such speaches but what are pertinent to the point handled And if he will needs wander in his discourses then you may reduce the force of them by way of Enthimem or syllogisme to the point disputed of that so both your Aduersary and the Auditory may see how roueingly these his speaches were vsed and how lowsely they and the question then handled do hang together 2. If your Aduersary vndertake the part of the Answerer suffer not him to oppose though he labour to do so to free himselfe from answering when he shall see himselfe plunged In like sort if he vndergo the part of the Opponent tye him precisely euer to oppose which Scene perhaps he being brought to a Non plus would sleyly transferre vpon you And thus be sure that eich of you keepe your chosen station 3. If your disputant will vaunt that he will prooue all by scripture onely as most of them giue it out they will then force him to draw all his premisses I meane both his Propositions if so they should be reduced to a forme of argument from the scripture alone of which Methode within two or three arguments he is most certaine to faile And if he take either of his Propositions from humane authority or from Naturall Reason you may tell him he leaueth his vndertaken Taske to wit to prooue from Scripture alone and consequently you may deny the force of his argument though otherwise logicall if it were reduced to forme 4. In your proofs drawne from Scripture labour to be much practised in the Protestants Translations of it of which infinite places make for the Catholicks Cause euen as the Scripture is translated by the Protestants This course farre gauleth them more then if you insisted in the Catholicke traÌ„slation 5. If you dispute with any by writing or enterchange of letters this being but a mute Aduocate of the minde write nothing but matter and with as much compendiousnes as the subiect will beare without any verball excursions or digressions since this proceeding will force your Aduersary to reply if he will reply at all to the matter For otherwise leauing the point which is cheifly to be handled he will shape a reply to other lesse necessary stuffe deliuered by you and then his Reply must passe abroad by the help of many partiall tongues for a full answere to your whole discourse 6. In like sort if you attempt to charge a Protestant Authour with lyes or Corruptions in their writings with which many of their bookes are euen loaded rather insist in a few and those manifest and vnanswereable then in a greater number seeing if your Aduersary can make show to salue but three or foure of a greater number which the more easily he may do by how much the number of the instanced falsifications is greater the supposed answereing of theÌ„ chosen picked out by him must seeme to disgrace all the rest vrged by you 7. If you intend to bring and obiect any wicked and vnwarrantable sayings especially out of Luther either against the Blessed Trinity or about his acknowledged lust sensuality be carefull to note the Editions of the Booke wherein such his sayings are to be found For in the later Editions of his workes many such sentences are for very shame left out and vnprinted And hereupon there are diuers Protestants who vtterly deny that euer any such words were written by him 8. Be skilfull in discouering though not in practising Sophistry that so you may the better loose and vntie eâ—â—e Protestants knots of deceipte diuers of them being most expert in all kinds of Paralogisme And particulerly takeheede of that grosse and vulger sleight vnworthy a schollar drawne from the particuler to the
and Samaria And agayne there They were receaued of the Church and the Apostles Act. 18. Paule went vp and saluted the Church Now how can these texts be possibly applyed to any Inuisible congregation or company of men Furthermore S. Paul speaketh of himselfe that he persecuted the Church of God as in 1. Cor. 15. Galat. 1. Philipp 3. In all which places the word Church is vsed But it is well knowne whom S. Paul did persecute And in 1. Timoth. 3. It is sayd how to conuerse indomo Dei quae est Ecclesia Dei in the house of the liuing God which is the Church of God But how could Timothee know how to conuerse in the house of God except he did know which was this house To all which former texts of Scripture I annex this one note a point much to be considered that not any one place of Scripture can be produced wherein the word Church is named but that a Visible and externall coÌ„pany of men is necessarily vnderstood thereby To the former Scriptures may be added certayne descriptions of the Church in other passages thereof as in Esay 2. Daniel 3. Michaeas 4. the Church is compared to a conspicuous mountayne which cannot be vnseene according to the expositions of Ierom Austin and the Protestants In like sort in Psalm 18. those words He placed his tabernacle in the Sunne are thus paraphrazed by S. Austin In manifesto posuit Ecclesiam suam c. He placed his tabernacle in an open place his tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sunne not in the night but in the day Thus Austin Another most illustrious conuincing passag of the Scripture for the Churches Visibility is that in the Epistle to the Ephesians c. 4. where it is sayd of Christ He gaue Pastours Doctours to the consummation of Saints vnto the worke of the Ministery till we all meete in the Vnity of Fayth that is as D. Fulke interpreteth for euer These words necessarily import that the Church of Christ must at all tymes and seasons and this without any interruption haue Pastours to administer the Sacraments and preach the word Which exposition being granted implyeth necessarily an euer Visibility of the Church For how can those Doctours and Pastours preach at all tymes and vpon all occasions the word of God administer the Sacraments if they be concealed and lye in secret Or how can the persons to whom the Word is preached the Sacraments dispensed become vnknowne or Inuisible That this is the true interpretation of the former text of the Ephesians is generally taught by our owne learned men For according hereto D. Whitakers teacheth the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments to be so necessary to the Church that he thus saith Si adsunt Ecclesiam constituunt tollunt si aufer antur With whom conspireth D. Willet thus saying of the administratioÌ„ of the Word Sacraments These marks cannot be absent from the Church and it is no longer a true Church then it hath these Markes And heÌ„ce it is that D. Whitakers further sayth that the preaching of the word and the administration of the SacrameÌ„ts are Ecclesiae proprietates essentiales essentiall proprâ—etyes of the Church And that D. Fulke thus affirmeth Christ will suffer no particuler Church to continue without a seruaÌ„t to ouersee it And that Pastours Doctours must be in the Church till the end of the World euen froÌ„ Christs time to Luthers age yea our sayd D. Fulke further affirmeth that these b Pastours Doctours must resist all false opinions with open reprehension Vnto our former brethren accord other Protestant Deuines thus wryting The ministery is an ossentiall Marke of the true Church Finally Caluin comparteth with vs all herein saying the Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours So truly do we Protestants interpret the words of Esay Vpon thy walls ô Ierusalem I haue set watchmen all the day and all the night for euer they shall not be silent Now from these premisses we demonstraciuely proue the euer and vninterrupted visibility of the Church a point so euident that our owne learned Protestants do according to the former doctrine defyne a visible Church in these words A visible Church is a congregation of the faithfull people where the word is preached and the Sacraments ministred Which definition is also allowed by Doctour Willet and which euen in reason it selfe is warrantable since the Church as enioying the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen in that respect become visible as we said aboue And thus farre of this prophecy of the Apostle in the explication whereof I haue stayed the longer in that it irrefragably conuinceth the poynt now handled And here I end touching the necessary Visibility of Gods Church prooued out of the sacred Scriptures NEVSERVS You might haue added Ochinus to the former Propheeyes that it is in another place foretould of the Church of the new Testament that it Pastours shal be daily multiplyed to minister vnto God And this not with any interruption herein but euen from month to month and from Sabaoth to Sabaoth That all this is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Messias appeareth from the Annotations of the English Bibles vpon the Chapters here cited printed 1576. You also might further haue insisted in that other Prophecy that the Kingdome of Christ shall not be giuen ouer to an other People but shall stand for euer And that it shal be an eternall glory and ioy from generation to generation All which passages to be meant of the Church is acknowledged by all learned Protestants Now how vntowardly and vnaptâ—y these passages with the former by you alledged sort to a company of Professours shut vp in so secret a manner as that no man can take notice of them I referre to any mans iudgement not wholy blinded with partiality and preiudice But I feare Ochinus I haue wronged you in vndertaking part of your assumed taske therefore I will cease and descend as afore I promised to answere such chiefe places of the Scripture as are by some vrged in their sily wrytings the impostumous swelling of their froathy penne for the supporting of the Churches imaginary Inuisibility D. REYNOLDS I pray you Neuserus proceed therein since obscure passages in any kind of learning not explayned do often suggest tacit obiections perplexing and intricating the iudgments of the weake and ignorant NEVSERVS I will And first for example are vsually obiected those of Elias when he sayd relictus sum solus I am left alone As also that sentence of the Prophet deficiet hostia sacrificium the Oast and sacrifice spall cease And agayne that of the Apostle Nisi venerit discessio primum c. Except there come first a departure c. And finally that of the Apocalyps The woman must flye
I am made partaker of all that feare the Lord. Now this former doctrine touching the sufferings of one to be applyed to an other being the vndoubted true and auncient doctrine of Christ Church vpon which ground Indulgances are builded it from hence appeareth how idly and impertinâ—ntly our aduersaryes do vrge some texts of Scripture to the contrary As where it is sayd The soule which sinneth â—â—en that shall dye And againe Euery one shall be are his owne burden And more No Man câ—â— redeeme his brother or giue a price to God for him All which texts are spoken of the state of eternall damnation and therefore impertinently alledged in which state a Man deparâ—eth out of this World but they are not spoken of temporall punishment only which is reserued after the guilt of eternall damnation is remitted which is the point here controuerted If it be vrged against this doctrine that the actions of the Saincts deceased were meritts to themselues and therefore cannot be applyed as satisfactions for others â—o this I answere that one and the same action may be in a different respect both meritorious and satisfactory Meritorious as it proceedeth from supernaturall grace satisfactory as it is performed with payne labour and difficulty According hereto we reade in Scripture that almeâ—deeds do both merit and satisfy for sinne For thus we reade Whosoeuer shall giue in my name a cup of cold water c. he shall not loose his reward Here is merit We also reade of Almeâ—deeds in this sort Almesdeeds deliuer vs from sinne and death and againe As water quencheth the fire so Almesdeeds extinguish sinne Here is satisfaction Here also we are to conceaâ—e that though the same action may be meritorious and satisfactory yet a man meriteth only for himselfe not for others but satisfy he may both for himselfe and for others only Christ our Sauiour hath merited both grace and glory for vs all and also hath satisfyed for the sinnes of all Men Yet the worth and price of his merites we can apply only to ourselues by our meritorious actions and not deriue it to any other but the benefit of his satisfaction we may deriue by our owne satisfactory works not only to our selues but also to others Where it is vulgarly objected that Iuduigences are oftentymes granted for more thousands of years then the World or Purgatory are like to endure and continue And that therefore they are ridiculously and foolishly granted I answere this argument proceedeth from meere Ignorance For heere the yeres are not to be vnderstood of the yeres or dayes of penall satisfaction which are to be imposed in Purgatory but of the number of yeres which were more or lesse in number proportioned according to the diuersity of the crime by the Canonicall Decrees of the Church And here we are further to know that God in the space and compasse of an houre or some such short time may by the bitter paynes of Purgatory expiate that which in this life a remisse and slow penance or satisfaction would scarce redeeme in the compasse of many yeres Now touching the antiquity of Indulgences we fynd them practized by S. Paul who thus sayth of the incestuous person Whom you haue pardoned I also pardon for that which I haue pardoned in the Person of Christ for you I haue done it that we be not circumuented of Satan Here now we are to remember that the incestuous person to whom the Indulgence was heere giuen being in great contrition and sorrow for his sinne was excommunicated by S. Paul who at the request of the Corinthians did release him of his excommunication for feare he might faule into dispayre Now in this example we find all things necessary to an Indulgence or Pardon As first the authority of the granter of the pardon to wit S. Paul who affirmes to do it in the person of Christ Secondly state of grace in the Receauer of the Indulgence as appeareth by his Contrition and sorrow for his sinne committed Thirdly the temporall punishment remitted to wit his Excommunication Lastly a iust sufficient cause for giuing this Indulgence or Pardon Which was lest the offendour should faule into dispayre or be ouerplunged in sorrow After the Apostles tymes we fynd that the Bishops of the Primatiue Church gaue pardons and Indulgences to many and this was done by the mediation of Confessours or designed Martyrs as is witnessed by Tertullian Cyprian We also find that Pardons and Indulgences were giuen by sundry â—â—opes in other ages as by Leo the third by Gregory the Great by Vrban the second by Innocentius the third by Paschalis the first and by others All which dispensed and distributed out of the common treasure of the Church Besides the former authorityes the doctrine and vse of Indulgencs is warranted by Councells both Generall and Prouinciall To wit the first Councel of Nice the Councell of Ancyran the Councell of Leodice the Councell of Claramontane the Councell of Lateran of Vienna of Constance and of Trente as appeareth in the Councells themselfs Now if the former auncient Popes and Fathers as also these alledged Councells should erre in the doctrine of Indulgences then two mayne absurdityes should follow first that the Primatiue Church should most fouly erre in a dogmaticall poynt of fayth contrary to the iudgment of the more sober Leared Protestants among whom I will for breuity heare set downe the iudgment only of Kempnitius touchâ—ng the Primatiue Church who thus saith I dowbt not but the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles and Apostolicall Men not only the text of Scripture but also the natiue sense thereof But this the Primatiue Church could not receaue if it wholy erred in so mayne a matter of Christian doctrine as the doctryne of Indulgences is The second Absurdity is that in regard of the said Fathers and Generall Councells defending the doctrine of Indulgences the whole Church of Christ supposing the doctrine to be faâ—se should erre in matter of fayth contrary to the Promise of Christ who hath promised euer to be with his Church till the end of the World which said Church of his is styled by the Apostle for it greater certainty of fayth columna firmamentum veritatis and therefore incompatible with errour And thus much concerning the doctrine of Indulgences ending this discours with the Confession of Kempnitius touching the antiquity thereof who plainly acknowledgeth and saith that the beginning of Indulgences is not clearely enough set downe in histories The Catholicke doctrine touching Communion vnder one Kynd defended THe true state of this question is not whether Christ did institute the Eucharist vnder both kynds Or whether hymselfe and the Apostles did at the first institution receaue it vnder both kynds Or whether the Apostles and the Fathers afterwards at sundry tymes did minister it to the Laity vnder both kynds for all this
errein such particular poynts But the Case 〈…〉 otherwyse When many of the cheife Pastours and Father 〈…〉 seuerall Ages of the Primatiue Church do concurrently teach a poynt of doctrine as an Article of fayth And that they are not contradicted by any other of the Fathers for their mantayning of the said doctrine And in this sort is the former doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse taught without any opposition at all not only by the former alledged Fathers but by many others or rather all othors for breuiuy heare omitted Now in this Case M. Vice-Chancelour we Catholicks do hould that such their doctryne so ioyntly by the Fathers taught without any contradiction is most agreable to Gods word For seing the Fathers of the Primatiue Church were in those dayes the cheife Pastours of Christs Church Yf they should ioyntly â—rreâ— in fayth then would it follow that the whole Visible Church of God should erre an assertion most repugnant to the promisse of our Sauiour Super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam Et portae Inferi non praualebant aduersus eam and to that honerable title giuen to the Church by the Apostle styling it columna firmamentum veritatis Now what reuerence and respect we are to giue to the Primatiue Church and how we are to conceaue of the authority of it I will for the closure of this passage referre you M. Vice-Chancelour to the sentences of your own Brethreh being most learned and remarkable Protestants from whose iudgment therefore herein you cannot without great branch of modesty decline First then we find Kempnitius thus to aduance the authority of the Primatiue Church We doubt not but that the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles Apostolicall Men not only the text of the Scripture but also the right and natiue sense thereof The confession of Bohemia thus magnifyeth the same The auncient Church is the true and best Mistres of Posterity and going before leadeth vs the way Finally D. Iewell is no lesse sparing in his prayses heereof saying The Primatiue Church which was vnder the Apostles and Martyrs hath e 〈…〉 r a been accounted the purest of all others without exception Such transcendency of speeches you see your owne more sober and learned Brethren are not afrayd to ascrybe to the Fathers of those primatiue tymes L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaas I grant you haue spoken fully in defence of your owne state and of the seuerall offices thereof practized by you Priests And though I will not say like to Agrippa h A little you haue persuaded me to become a Catholicke yet I must ingenuously acknowledge I neuer heard a cause of this Nature with stronger better arguments defended Yet for the more perfect balanâ—â—g and weighing the force of your authorityes my selfe not being conuersant in the written Monuments of the auncient Fathers I must remit this poynt to the more mature disquisition of our learned Deuins MICHAEAS Though your Lordship will not apply to your selfe the fore-said words of Agrippa yet I will make bould to reply to you such is my charitable wishing of your chiefest good in the phraze of S. Paul to Agrippa I wish to God both in little much that your L. were such as I am except this my wat of liberty But my worthy Lord. Here now begmneth the Tragedy of the disconsolate and mournefull state of Priests and Catholicks in this Country You haue heard my L. of the Antiquity of Priesthood of the like antiquity of the Sacrament of Confession and Pennance and lsstly of the antiquity of the most holy sacrifice of the Masse And yet notwithstanding all this it is decreed as your L. well knowes by the pennall lawes of this Country that Priesthood shal be Treason the releiuing of any one such Priest death to the Releiuer Confession of our sinns to a Priest and absolution of them reputed to be in the Penitent a renouncing of his Loyalty and the hearing of Masse attended on with a great fine of siluer And thus by these means euery good Priest and Catholicke are at the first sight become Statute traytours And indeed such is the case heere that neither Priest nor Catholicke can with safety of conscience giue any yeelding obedience and satisfaction to the Magistrate touching those lawes since here not to offend were to offend Obedire oportet Dee magis quam hominibus And touching my selfe and other Priests in particular your L. is to take notice that not speaking of our Blessed Sauiour who was the first Priest nor of his Apostles succeeding him therein most of the auncient Fathers were Priests enioying the same Priesthood practizing the same function in hearing of Confessions absoluing the Penitents saying of Masse which the meanest Priest of England at this day doth Therefore your Lordship may truly suppose That before you at this present stand arraigned only for being Priests exercizing that their function S. Austin S. Ambrose S. Ierome S Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Chrysostome S. Ignatius and many more of those primatiue blessed Doctours What I am they were I stand but here as their Image and they are personated in me Neither can you impleade or condemne me but that your sentence must through my sides wound them so indisâ—oluble an vnion there is betweene their stares myne no other difference betwene vs but difference of tymes But my good Lord. To passe on further to the despicable detected state of Lay Catholicks a theame not vnseasonable at these tymes I will not insist in particularizing the pennall statuts decreed agaynst them Neuerthelesle my tongue vnder your L. licence can hardly pretermit one point in silence Among then so many Calamityes and vexations wherewith on eich syde they stand plunged Not any one pressure is more insufferable to them or more opprobâ—â—ous in the eares of strangers who are ready to trumpet forth the same to the irreparable dishonour of this noble Nation otherwise famous throughout all Christendome Then to obserue the houses of Catholicks to lye open to the search of the Common base Pusuâ—uants Who vnder colour of looking for a Priest do enter their houses at most vnseasonable tymes euen by force And there opening their Trunks Chests perusing their Euidences of their Estats taking the Maysters of the houses bound in great sommes of money for their after appearance in Courts of Iustice and violently breaking downe what may seeme to withstand their present furye do by strong hand cary away any gold siluer Iewells Plate or any other portable thing of worth And all this vnder the pretext of them being forfeyted through Recusancy And the least resistance agaynst these men here made is punished as an Act of Disloyalty Neither are any English Catholicks the Nobility excepted free from these Indignityes the dead pittylesse law herein promiscuously taking hold of all without difference Now my Honorable Lord Is it not a thing deseruing astonishment
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
vs at what times some sensible degrees and increase of this supposed change did happen and the manifestatioÌ„ of these degrees is to be made by naming the time and person when by whoÌ„ such and such a particular poynt or article of our present Roman Religion was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome The which not any Protestant notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories hath bin able yet to perform And thus farre M. Doctour of these your similitudes which you see in a true ballancing of them do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged D. WHITAKERS Indeede I grant that there are no Histories or Records at this day out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church But no doubt such Records there were though now wholy extinguished made away by the vigilancy and carefulnes of former Pâ—pes who to preserue the honour of their Church as free and exeÌ„pt from all change and innouation did deliberately purposely cause all Coppies of such writings and narrations to be for euer suppressed and buried in obliuion eyther by fire or otherwise CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour this is a meare groundles Phantasie If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies which affirme so much are yet extant If you produce no authority witnessing so much then why should we beleiue your bare and naked affirmation herein But to examine more punctually this poore refuge And first wheras you teach that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth now another supposing for the time this to be true how can it be conceiued that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants as you maÌ„taine though vntruly that in those times they were could be gathered suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity It is most absurd but to furmise such an impossibility Furthermore do we not see that the liues of such Popes which can be lesse warranted were recorded in histories yet extant to this very houre as else where is intimated Neither the narrations of them either were or could euer be suppressed How then can we be persuaded that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes Since certaine it is that the Popes if possible they could would haue caused all narrations touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished considering that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome Such an improbability this your euasion M. Doctour inuolues in its selfe D. WHITAKERS My Lord It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances and other arguments aboue produced to prooue the former presumed change But imagine for the time that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history examples of any knowne innouation imagine also that we cannot shew at what particular time and season the parcels of these changes did happen imagine lastly that there were neuer any records testimonies or writings in which these changes were registred yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture wherwith your religion is mortally foyled We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures to which only wee appeale and whose â—autarceia and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants the sacred Scripture being to vs more then decaplês apologia a tenfould shield of our fayth This I say we know and consequently we further know that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same which was planted in Rome by the Apostles Here is our fortresse here is our strength and this place to you Romanists is maccessible Here we haue Tò retòn the Word epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred And with this Word we are able to inflict Cairian pâ—etèn deadly to wound your popish Religion And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle If an Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you then that which wee haue preached let him be Anathema For to vs it is sufficient by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them and vs and as for Historiographers Wee giue them liberty to write what they will seeing this aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary And therfâ—re my Lord Cardinall I must say to you here with Archidamus ' èt è◠dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis either maÌ„taine your Religion with the force of Scripture or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to ballance this your last argument you must pardon me if I smile to my selle to obserue how affectedly and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse and especially in this your last close besprinkling diuers passages thereof as it were with some Greeke word or other Which in my iudgment beare with me if I misconster your meaning is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand what jolly men and great Clarkes you Protestants are And according hereto we commonly find the bookes writen either by English French or German Protestants euen to swell with Greeke phrases or sentences But who seeth not how forced this is it being a point of ostentation and vanity thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes We all know the tongues are but the porters of learning in which the Catholicks though with more cession modesty are most skilfull and that he who is a learned man indeede is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue as many Protestants are is like to that man who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle he reioiceth he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned I speake not this but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases and sentences but this chiefly when the QuestioÌ„ is touching translations out of that tongue and that we are to recurre to the Greeke being the originall for the cleering of that point Or when the
serue only to bleare for the tyme the impenetrating and weake eyes of the ignorant do in the closure of all both by certaine necessary inferences as also in playne and expresse tearmes grant the point here controuerted to wit that the Protestant Church hath for many ages togeather bene wholy inuisible and not knowne to any one man liuing or rather that during such said ages it hath bene vtterly ouerthrowne destroyed and as it were annihilated and no such Church in being The proofe of which point shal be the subiect of this passage This point then is prooued two wayes and both from the penns of the Protestants First from their acknowledged want of succession of Pastours and of their like defect of sending by ordinary Calling Secondly from their manifest open complaints of their Churches inuisibility for former ages in expresse words or rather of it vtter extinction Nullity And as touching the first It is euident euen in reason it selfe that that Church which wanteth succession of Pastours ordinary Calling if any such Church could be must needes be inuisible at least at that tyme when such want is And the reason hereof is because this want necessarily presupposeth that there were not in that supposed Church any former Predecessours or Pastours at all which could conferre authority or calling to the succeding Pastours or Preachers But where no Pastours are there are no sheepe for it is written how shall they heare without a Preacher And where no sheepe are there is no Church And where is no Church there is no visisibility of it since euen Logicke instructeth vs that Non Eutis â—â—n est Accidens That the Protestant Church for many ages hath wanted all personall succession and ordinary Calling is ouereuident seeing besides that which hath bene sayd of this point already we find diuers learned Protestants to confesse no lesse For thus doth Sadellius write Diuers Protestants affirme that the Ministers with them are destitute of lawfull Calling as not hauing a continuall visible succession from the Apostles tymes which they do attribute only to the Papists And hence it is that many Protestants confesse that they are forced to flye to Extraordinary Calling which is immediatly from God without any help of man Thus for example Caluin saith Quia Papae tyrannide c. Because through the tyrannâ— of the Pope true succession of Ordination was broken off therefore we stand neede of a new course herein and this function or Calling was altogether extraorinary Thus Caluin And D. Fulke in like manner sayth The Protestants that first preached in these dayes had extraordinary Calling with whom agreeth D. Parkins saying The calling of Wâ—cklefe Hus Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martyr c. was extraordinary Thus we see that the Protestants confessing the want of personall succession in their Church as also the want of Ordinary Vocation and flying therefore to Extraordinory Vocation do euen by such their Confessions acknowledge withall the Inuisibility of their Church in those tymes and an interruption next before of all personall succession for if succession of Pastours had then bene really truly in being then had those men bene visible to whom the Authority of calling others to the Ministery had appertayned and consequently there had bene no need of Extraordinary Calling Which Extraordinary Calling is euer accompayned with Miracles as aboue is showed in the iudgments of the more sober Protestants or otherwise it is but a meere illusion And we haue not red or heard that any of those first Protestants who vendicated to themselues this Extraordinary Calling haue euer wrought in confirmation eyther of their Calling or doctrine any one Miracle OCHINVS I must confesse Michaeas that you haue discussed well of this poynt and in my iudgment very forcingly But proceed we intreate you to the second branch of your Proofe since I can hardly belieue that any Protestants will expresly acknowledge the Inuisibility of their owne Church for if they do then is the Question at an end and hath receaued it vttermost tryall that can be imagined MICHAEAS The euent will seale the truth of this point And first that immediatly before Luthers reuolt the Protestant Church was inuisible Vibanus Regius a markable Protestant confesseth so much But of the Protestant Church it visibility at Luthers appearance we haue already fully discoursed and therefore we will ascend to higher times M. Parkins then thus writeth of ages more remote We say that before the day of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the world Caelius Secundus Curio an eminent Protestant confesseth no lesse in these words Factum est vt per multos i am annos Ecclesia latuerit ciuesque hutus regni vix ab alijs ac ne vix quidem agnosci potuerint c. It is brought to passe that the Church for many yeares hath bene latent and that the Cittizens of this Kingdome could scarsely and indeed not as all be knowne of others D. Fulke confesseth more particularly of this point saying The Church in the tyme of Bonifacâ— the third which was anno 607. was inuisible and fleed into wildernes there to remayne a long season M. Napper riseth to higher tymes thus wrytinge God hath withdrawne his visible Church from open assemblyes to the harts of particular godly men c. during the space of twelue hundred and sixty yeares the true Church abiding latent and inuisible With whome touching the continuance of this Inuisibility agreeth M. Brocard an English Protestant But M. Napper is not content with the latency of the Protestant Church for the former tymes only but inuolueth more ages therein thus auerâ—ing During euen the second and third Ages meaning after Christ the true Church of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist hymselfe But Sebastianus francus a most remarkable Protestant ouerstripeth hearein all his former Brethren not doubting to comprehend within the said Inuisibility all the ages since the Apostles thus wryting for certaine the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure And that for these thousand and foure hundred yeares marke the lenght of the tyme the Church hath beene no wâ—eare externall and visible Which acknowledgement of so longe a tyme or rather longer is likewise made by D. Fulke in these words The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tyme. But D. Downham with whom I will heare conclude is not ashamed to insimulate the very tymes of the Apostles within the lyke latency thus wrytinge The generall defection of the visible Church foretouâ—d 2. Thessal 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes Good God Would any Man hould it possible were it not that their owne books are yet extant that such eminent Protestants should confesse
contrary to the necessary Visibility of Gods true Church proued out of the Scriptures acknowledged by their owne learned Brethren their owne Church to haue beene wholy latent and inuisible or rather wholy extinct and annihilated for so many ages together But this we must asâ—rybe O God to thy holy permission who as thou suffered in the tyme of the Old TestameÌ„t thyne Enemyes to sheath their swords in their brethrens sydes so heare thoâ— permiteest for the greater honour of thy Church so many learned Protestants euen with wounderfull admiration sweete Iesus deadly to wounde their owne Church fayth and Religion with their owne penns D. REYNOLDS Forbeare Michaeas these woundering Interiections the accustomed Dialect of an vngouerned Passion I grant these learned Protestants aboue alledged were of this opinion Notwithstanding to confront their authorityes there may be found many others as learned and iudicious Protestants as these are who absolutly mantayne the Visibility of their Church for all ages And I see no reason but that the sentences and iudgemeÌ„ts of these other should preponderate and weighe equally with the iudgements of the former Protestants by you alledged MICHAEAS You must pardon me M. Doctour if I wounder at things so strangly and vnexpectedly fauling out But to your solution I say it is most defectiue for seuerall reasons First because it mainly crosseth the method agreed vpon amonge vs in the beginninge of our discourse where you tyed your selfe irrephâ—ably to stand to the iudgments and confession of your owne learned Men. Againe though you can bringe other Protestants of as greate eminency for learninge as these by me obiected yet except you and the said Protestants will insist in true and confessed Instances of Protestancy for euery seuerall age which is impossible for you to performe your and their asseuerations are to be reputed but naked verball and inauayleable Lastly and principally your Replye is insufficient Becaus I heare alledge Protestants confessinge the Inuisibility of their owne Church to their owne mighty preiudice and the Catholycks greate aduantage And therefore it must needs be that the racke of Truth forced them being otherwyse ingenuous learned and iudicious to all such Confessions Whereas such Protestants as may be brought to gainsay and contradict the former Confession as being men of more spatious and large Consciences do spake in their owne cause and behalf and therefore as being ready pressed to auere any thinge how false soeuer for the safery of their Church are deseruedly to be reputed in their wrytings more partiall So as in this case the Words of Tertullian may iustly take place Magis fides prouâ— est in aduersus sometâ—psos confitentâ—â— quam pro 〈◊〉 â—egantes NEVSERVS I lyke well Michaeas the reason of your disparity geuen touching some Protestants confessing against themselfs and others affirming the contrary to their owne aduantage OCHINVS The difference set downe by you is most foreible for no doubte the open Confession of one learned Aduersary is to ouerballance twenty denying the same euen for that peculiar reason aboue mentioned D. REYNOLDS Michaeas Suppose for the tyme that we could not proue our Churches perpetuali Visibility yet seinge you are not able if you were pressed thereto to iustify and make good the Visibility of your owne Roman Church during all the ages since the Apostles dayes Therefore looke into what danger through our confessed Inuisibility we may be presumed to tune within the same we may justly includ you And thus you owne argument rebucts vpon your selfe MICHAEAS Heare I see M. D. that for meare want of positiue arguments to support your owne Church you are lastly fled to picke quarrells at our Church as if it were a iustification of yourselfs that wee Catholycks did labour with your infirmities lyke men who reioyce to haue compartuers in misery But to your point vrged say it is impertinent to the whole drift of our dispute which was only touching the want of Visibility in the Protestant Church which alone to proue was by me vndertaken the visibilitye of the Catholycke Church comminge in incidently lyke as a discours of vice doth often in the End biget some specches of Vertue our Contrary being thus brought to our remembrance by meanes of the other Contrary But because M. D. you shall discouer no tergiuersation in vs herein and that here to entreate of the continuall Visibility of our Catholycke Church violateth our former imposed method Therefore I will pawne my credit that there shal be left with you certaine prouffs conâ—ayninge the expresse and confessed Visibility of our Roman Church from the Apostles to these dayes And this by the acknowledgment of sundry learned Protestants though heare by the way I must tell you that the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church during so many former Ages doth potentially and vertually include the proufe of the Visibility of our Roman Church during the said ages Seing the Inuisibility of your Church for so longe a tyme is ascribed by you Protestants as appeareth by many of the former Protestants testimonyes to be the worke of Antichtist you meaninge thereby the Pope and the Church of Rome therefore it ineuitably followeth from your owne Primisses that Popes and the Church of Rome haue euer beene visible during all the said former Ages and Centuryes OCHINVS Newserus I would haue a word or two with you in priuate therefore if it please you let vs walke a little a part NEVSERVS I am willingthereto go into the next roome and I will follow you OCHINVS You see here Neuserus how this Question of the Protestant Churches visibility hath bene discussed and argued And I must consesse that Michaeas hath euen in replicably demonstrated that the Protestant Church hath at least for many ages bene inuisible or rather extinct you see also how royatous and abounding the old Testamentâ—s in prophecyes and other testimonies that the Church in the daye of the true Messias shal be at all cyâ—res most conspicuous and visible Therefore what resteth but that eyther we must reiect the old Testament which I neuer will do for falsly prophetying of the state of the Church Or els we must denye that these tymes of the new Testament are the tymes of Grace that the Church erected by Christ and his Apostles as wanting the accomplishment of the foresayd predictions is the true Church which later poynt I hould to be more probable NEVSERVS You haue preuented me Ochinus in tyme of speaking but not in iudgment For to confesse the truth after I had obserued the weaknes of the Instances alledged though alledged by the Doctour with as much Scholarlike Art and aduantage as might be my houering thoughts transported my iudgment to this your Center Which though it be enuironed with difficultyes yet I hould it the more safe way with you since the one must necessarily be reiected as false and erroneous they so diametrically crossing one the other to retayne our former reuerence to
Work A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words You can name the notable personages in all ages obserue these words in all ages and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order and vpon your fingars Thus D. Fulke 3. Thirdly We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility during the first six hundred years after Christ and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church by taking a view in generall how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants who indeed dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein do absoluâ—ly reiect them as inexcusable and grosse Papists For as for these last thousand yeares It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer that our Church hath bene most visible tyrannyzing they say ouer the true Church for so many ages And according hereto M Powell sayth From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous But to proceede If the most auncient most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church I meane Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Iustinus Ireneus Tertulâ—an Origen Cyprian Athanasius Hilarius the Cyrills the Gregoryes Ambrose Basill Optatus Gaudentius Chrysostome Ierome Austin and diuers others be accounted by our aduersaryes most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth then followeth it ineuitably that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church and then consequently the Church whereof they were Pastours must needs be visible That these primatiue Fathers were Papists as our Aduersaryes tearme vs appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes And first Peter Martyr thus confesseth of this point As long as we insist in the Fathers so long we shal be conuersant in their errours Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers Euen in the best tymes meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church the ambition ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such as the very blind may easily perceaue that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church Latin also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merit of Innocation of Saints and such like meaning such like Catholicke doctrines Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers who thus confesseth Presently from the beginning of the Church that is presently after Christ his Ascension the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth increased ceremonyes and deuised peculiar Worshipps But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words The Fathers for so many ages meaning after the Apostles haue bene blind and most ignorant in the Scriptures They haue erred all their lifetyme and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths they were neither Saincts nor pertayning to the Church Thus Luther And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church and consequently that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes 4. Fourthly The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued from that the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth since it first plantation by the Apostles Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth then followeth it demonstratiuely that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome euer since the Apostles and consequently that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes To proue that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true vndoubred euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much And here I am to craue pardon if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants aboue produced in this Dialogue Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages so here also diuers of them prooue so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church during the said tymes To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church I will ascend vp by degrees euen to and within the Apostles dayes And this because some Protestants as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow First then M Parkins thus sayth During the space of nyne hundred yeares the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander all which do in euery of the Centuryes from S. Gregories tyme to Luther name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth according to the Century or age wherin eich of them liued But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme thus saying The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope Sâ—luester and the Emperour Constantyn for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares And also againe from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein for thus he witnesseth During euen the second and third ages the true temple of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles thus wrytinge Presently after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth thus saying The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church then may we infer that the Church of Rome and it fayth as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour the false Church was visible immediatly