Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	apostle_n	church_n	tradition_n	9,173	5	9.2350	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09739	Ane answer made the fourth day of Septembre a thousand fyue hundreth syxtie [and] one, by maister Theodore de Besza minister of the holie Euangile, in the presence of the quene mother, the king and quene of Nauarre, the princes of the blood royall, and of the priuie counseil, vnto that whiche the cardinall of Lorraine had replied against that whiche was propounded in the first iourney of their talking together, by the said de Besza in the name of the reformed churches. Together with an other short answer made by the said de Besza the 26 day of the said moneth vnto certein articles of replie set forth by the said cardinall	Bèze, Théodore de, 1519-1605.; Baron, John.	1562 (1562)	STC 2000; ESTC S119255	24,857	90

receiued in the Churche euerywhere of all men But who may assure vs of these thre pointes Certenly no mā as I suppose For the diuersitie is infinite y t is founde in the bookes of the Ancients yea and that in the articles of the faith Furthermore if we must come vnto these wordes alwayes and of all at what tyme shall we begin except at the Apostolicall Churche And who shalbe the first in y e coūte but the Apostles of whom y e historie was faythfully written by Saint Luke that whiche may be knowen by theire owne writinges So therefore my Lordes to conclude forasmuche as all trueth cōmeth of God who haeth taken for his trushmen in that that concerneth oure saluation the Prophetes and Apostles we returne alwayes vnto this foundation of the Scriptures and yet will we receiue the aduise of coūcelles and of fathers but that shall be so farre as they cōfirme their sayinges by the euident witnessinges of the Scriptures the whiche as treulie sayeth Saint Augustine in his bookes of Christian doctrine be so tempered with the holy Spirit y t that whiche is darkly spoken in one place is moste clearelie spoken in an other place with diuers other meanes to vnderstand well the Scripture whiche be conteined in y e said bookes of Saint Augustine and of otheres whiche haue entreated of this mater And there remayneth as yet one difficultie to be resolued whiche lyeth in this that many haue thoght that the will of God touching all y t is requisit vnto oure saluation was not fully written by the Euangelistes Apostles But if this might take place I pray you my Lordes what a doore should there be opened to set forth all maner of dreames and rauinges that men list And in very dede we see that this haeth bene the passage by whiche Satā haeth entered in to waste the vine yarde of the Lorde and yet denye we not but y t before Moses tyme God gouerned his Churche by visions and reuelations and that the Apostles first planted the Churches with a liuelie voice before that their doctrine was written But where fore is it y t whiles men grew greater in malice and mo in nombre contrarie wyse their lyues growing shorter that the Lorde haeth willed that this doctrine should be enregistred in a cōmon language to be vnderstand of all Haeth this bene to encountre them that decore and deck their rauinges and dreames with y e tytle of traditions reuelations or of custome Now if this doctrine be not written but in part wherefore should this remedie serue then Surely Saint Iohn speaketh not so of the Scriptures where he sayeth that the thinges y t he haeth written be written to the end that in beleuing that Iesus is the Christe the Sonne of God ye might haue lyfe the whiche thing should be fals if there should be left out any doctrine necessarie vnto saluation Saint Paule also declarīg the vse of the Scripture where he wold teache all the ministers of the Churche of God in the personne of his faithfull disciple Timothee had not said that it maketh the man of God that is to say the ministers of the worde of God or in especiall if ye list euery faithfull man to be in all pointes perfyte if it had bene nedefull to haue added any thing that as yet was not written And yet we doubt not but alweys there might haue bene of the Apostles traditions vnwritten But what were they Perteining vnto ordre and to policie But because this name haeth bene abused a long tyme it behoueth to shew whiche be y e Apostolicall traditions the w c will not be hard to be done if two pointes be propounded whereby they may be iudged that is to say if they be cōformable to the doctrine and mete to edification for it is a thing moste assured that the Apostles neuer appointed any maner of doing that might be directly or vndirectly cōtrarie to the doctrine whiche they taught nor also that myght turne away men how litle soeuer it be frōe the spirituall seruice seing all their writinges beare witnes thereof When therefore this ruell shalbe kept then shall it be easie to discerne the doctrine frome the tradicions and the fals tradicions from y e right traditions And to this may be added that that whiche the Apostles them selues haue done in this behalf is not alweys perpetuall Not but that they are witnes w tout reproche but for this cause that according to the reule of charitie did they beare some thing with the infirmitie of the Iewes and so muste be iudged of that whiche they ordeyned of thinges strangled to eat no blood And of that whiche S. Paule haeth taught and practised in Timothee and on his personne the w c thinges now might haue no place except in following y e generall reule to cōmodate oure selues to oure neighboures in thinges indifferent suche thinges may also be gathered of other maner of doīges whiche they haue appropried vnto their tymes as where it is spoken of kissing to haue their head vncouered or bare in signe of authoritie the whiche at this day be contrarie maner of doinges or fashions amongest many nations amōgest whome it should be founde very strange y t men should kisse one an other or that one man should kysse an other mans wyfe as also at this tyme to speake beare headed is a signe of inferrior or low condition All these thinges therefore oght to be considered before y t we should grounde a doctrine as Apostolicall for to abuse the authoritie or custom of y e Apostles to trooble the Churches with lyke as we see that it haeth come to passe shortly after the tyme of the Apostles for the feast of Easter specially in their tyme touching them whiche abused the authoritie of the Churche of Ierusalem for to mingle the Iudaisme with the Christianisme accordīg as it is written in the historie of the Actes of the Apostles There was it ordeyned that no mans cōscience should he charged with any yoke How thē may we esteme that y e Apostles haue inuented so many and so many ceremōes vnto whiche afterwardes haeth bene attributed bothe remission of sinnes and merites seing y t they haue made suche an expresse protestation to the contrarie yea wolde not giue place vnto the Mosaicall ceremonies of whiche God him self was author It is a long tyme since that Saint Augustīe cōplayned hereof when he wrote to Ianuarius but there is no doubte if he had bene in the lyke tyme as ours is he wold haue bene more astonied at them In a somme therefor we do require that the Scripture whiche is cleare in this behalf may discerne betuixt the traditions that be good thē y t be euill betuixt them that be holie and them that be profaine betuixt them that be profitable and them that be noysome and betuixt them that be nedefull

beawtie where there shall be neyther spot nor wrinckle it knoweth God but it is in a parte When I speake thus I beleue y t ye know the Apostles owne wordes For to be brief I confesse that without y e Churche there is no saluatiō because there is no lyfe but in Iesus Christe Iesus Christe imployeth not his liuelie vertue no where els but amongest his membres the vnion and assemblie whereof is called the Churche But the question is to know whether that in this world the Churche may erre and whether it be aboue the Scripture or els altogether subiect vnto the same Hereunto do I answer that it is a thing without all doubte that the particuler membres of the Churche may erre and do erre daylie bothe in doctrine and maners according vnto that whiche S. Paule sayeth that we knowe in a parte and S. Iohn that if we say y t we haue no sinne we deceiue oure selues But if any body will except out of this nombre the ancient doctors he shall perdonne vs if we beleue him not For it were easie for vs to gather many witnesses of fautes y t be foūd in the greatest and moste ancient of them let this be spoken sauing the reuerence due vnto their godlines and learning But we will not stay oure selues so muche here for the honnor that we heare vnto them and y t not without good cause as also because if I haue well vnderstand the sayeng of my Lorde Cardinall that he is no more of that mynde then we to deceiue them without exception This is it that we vnderstand of the membres of the Churche in particularitie the imperfection whereof doeth not stoppe but y t the Churche is formed and made thereof For by litle and litle do they go forwarde aswell in the knowledge of God as in the amendment of life But if the membres of the Churche be generally considered as it is destributed in diuers diocess and prouinces shall we say that it may ●rre Again if I remembre well my Lorde Cardinall was lately of that 〈…〉 specially the particuler Churches prouinciall Councelles may erre and haue often erred and surely that is ratified by so long an experience that no man of iudgemēt as I suppose can doubte thereof There resteth therefore to cōsider the hole Churche in an vniuersalitie but in what sorte For cōsidering it in the estimation of an vniuersall Councell first of all there is no greate apperance to iudge that all the vertue that the holy Goste employeth vpon y e Churche is restreyned to an certen nombre of Prelats the whiche be not alweys y e most learned nor y e best yea althogh they represent the hole multitude that sēdeth them For how often tymes will it come to passe that a simple man shall haue more vnderstanding at an instant then the moste wyse of an hole company And therefore was it said by Gerson y t more credit oght to be giuen to one priuate faithfull man then to an hole Coūcell and to the Pope if he haue better authoritie or reason And namely in y e great Councell of Nece by whome was it stopped that the law of single lyfe whiche afterwarde haeth broght so great filthynes into the Churche was not then established By one Paphnutius onely as sayeth the historie And moreouer whē was there euer assembled a Councell so generall but that a greate parte not onely of the moste wyse and moste holie men but also of the Prelates haue remayned be hinde And who may than assure but that they that were absent some tymes had greater reuelation then they that were present And besydes all this my Lordes how long is it a go that there reigned so horrible a cōfusiō in y e Churche and principally in the great estates dignities of Prelates in such sorte that the greatest desolation of the house of God is in that parte where it oght to be moste entier and best decked At the least it is a long tyme past that the exemples hereof haue appered that y e good Busshops haue sobbed sighed so grieuously therefore so euidently that we heare them at this day And that whiche S. Barnard wryteth of this mater in his book of consideration and in the 33 sermon on the Canticles and also in the sermon of the conuersion of S. Paule is noles notoriouse thē true Allas Lorde sayeth he they whche be sene to loue the first and chief places ī thy Churche and their to haue y e superioritie be first in a redynes to persecute thee They haue take● the Ark of Sion they haue vio●lently possessed the Castell and by power haue set fyre on th● hole Citie Let this be spoken m● Lordes not to iniurie any body bi● to shew that the chief vocations i● the Churche being of so long a tym● so confused and misreuled that it i● impossible to conclude in any wys● that the vniuersall Councelles tha● haue bene now of a long tyme ga●thered together of a multitude so e●● qualified haue bene so guyded by 〈◊〉 holy Spirit that they coulde no● erre An ancient Priest of whome I wolde make no mention in this cōpany if it were not that they alledg● his example in this mater did prophesie well althogh he was no thing worth But we reade none otherwyse but he erred yea both y t he his company in condemning Iesus Christ for it was the holy Goste y t propheseid in this behalf and not he whiche knew not what he said nor what he spoke being moued w t a Spirit very contrarious that is to say a deuilish Spirit because of malice he concluded to sic a Iesus Christe the Sonne of God And further if a generall Councell haeth receiued this priuiledge that they can not erre in y e rewle of their doctrine nor in y e forme of their maners we demand what tyme was this priuiledge dated For there was neuer but one God one Faith and one Churche Now that there was error in the Churche in the tyme of the olde Testamēt the Prophetes openlye beare witnes and y e histories shew good proof thereof All y e wache men sayeth Esay 56 ▪ chaptre be blind they know no thing they are all domme dogges ▪ And Ierem 6 chaptre Frome the Prophet to the priest they work all vntrueth And to the intēt y t this might not be restreyned vnto the life of particuler persons it is said in the 14 chaptre of the same Prophet they prophesie fals thinges and a lieng vision And in Isay the 29 chaptre The wisdome of the wyse shall perishe the vnderstāding of y e prudent shall vanishe away God shall shut vp the eyes of the Prophetes and of y e principalles And in Ezechiell the 7 chaptre The law shall perishe frome the Priest And to say the trueth who condemned y e Prophetes as Ieremias

Micheas yea the Sonne of God him self and after him the Apostles but the assemblies of the Prelates of Israell If hereunto it be answered that these thinges happened in the tyme of the olde Testament I answer that it is not ynough spoken nor derectly answered For the conclusion will alweys be ferme and sure that the assemblie of Prelats of the Churche how generall soeuer that it was haue oftē tymes bene gouerned by the Spirit of error rather then by the holy Goste Secondly if we come to the new Testament S. Paule haeth not he expresly warned the Ephesiens in y e name of all the Churche that there shoulde wolues come oute frome amongest the mids of the Pastors that the sonne of perdition shoulde sit in the temple of God And in very dede in conferring the Councelles one with an other there will appere so many contrarieties amongest them selues that of very force ye must confesse that the holy Goste haeth not alweys there had audiēce but that Satan for a long tyme past haeth transfigured him self into the lyght of generall Councelles for to disguise and hyde his falshode There is a place in S. Augustine y t expresseth this in his second booke of Baptisme agaīst the Donatistes 3 chaptre the whiche I haue alledged in the first oration and now for a cause will alledge it again there it is expresly said that the Epistles of the particuler Busshops be corrected by the prouinciall Councelles and the prouinciall Councelles by the generall Councelles the first generall Councelles adnulled by the last when as by experiēce of things that whiche was close is opened that whiche was hidde is made euident Unto this my Lorde Cardinall answered ī his oration y t this was to be vnderstand of exterior or outward things whiche might oght to vary according as nede requireth But considering the hole mater nerer it is found that this worde Emendari presupposeth that there was a faute cōmitted and after corrected also if this answer shoulde be receiued ye must say lykewyse of the particuler Epistles of the busshops and prouinciall Councelles the whiche is directly against the intention of Saint Augustine whiche reasoneth there of this point and not of any exterior policie but of one point of doctrine to wit of the opinion of Saint Cyprian and of the Councell of Affricke touching rebaptisation If there be also alledged an other argument whiche they vse to wit if oure Lorde haeth promised to be in y e myddes of two or three gathered to gether in his name now by greater reason wil he be in an assemblie vniuersall we grant that so it may be presumed but there is a difference betuene a presumption and a necessarie conclusion For y e malice of man cōmeth often tymes vnto this point to abuse the name of God to establishe their lesings that suche may haue God in theire mouth whiche haue his enemy in their hart The weaknes of man is so great y t there is comonlie in him an infinite nombre of dissordinate affections whiche blind oure eyes so that we say that he whiche haeth none other foundation then the aduyse of men and the outward apperance of a Coūcell is rather in danger to be deceiued thē otherwys What then Wold we y t the doctrine of y e Churche should be vncertain seing it may erre No thing les For we confesse that as yet we know in a parte as Saint Paule saieth in this respect there is alweys error mingled with the veritie yet neuertheles God suffereth not that the veritie in y e substanciall pointes of oure saluatiō be euer so buried in all his Churche y t there is not alweys some nombre now more now lesse y t vnderstādeth y t whiche they oght to vnderstād do follow that whiche they oght to follow Thus we see that it came passe in Israell in the tyme of Elias and in the tyme of the captiuitie of Babilon in the tyme of the cūming of Iesus Christe when as scarsely was there found a Zacharie an Elizabeth a Ioseph a Uirgin Marie a Simeon and an Anna the Prophetesse whiche had a vnderstanding of the fulfilling of the Prophetes amongest so great corruptions of Scrybes Pharises and Sadduces Suche interruptions therefore in the Churche of God ꝓceding and cōming of the iniquitie of men be as a storme or cloudy wether whiche afterwardes he causeth to vanishe away with y e brightnes of his worde as it pleaseth him and according as he distributeth the secretes of his iudgementes and of mercies Are we willing lykewyse thus to condemne the ancient Councelles God forbid For as ye your selues know ryght well y t if it were in question to be reuled by them ye should change mo thinges then we ye haue trauelled therein these dayes past but we require y t the Scripture be the touche stone for to examyn all that is done and said in the Churche If this seme strange I pray you my Lordes to cōsider this moste renouned place of Saint Augustine writing vnto Maximin Arian in the seconde booke chaptre 14 Is there any generall Coūcell more authorised then the first called the Councell of Nece And what is y e Councell of Arimin A Councell reiected and cōdemned that worthely And whereof disputeth S. Augustine Euen of a principall article of the beleif y t which had bene before that often tymes fully resolued to wit of the Cōsubstancialitie of the Sonne of God in this mean season ye may see that S. Augustine witnesseth that for his part he is not astricted nether to y e Coūcell of Nece nor yet to the Coūcell of Arimin but that he will fight w t the Scriptures whiche be saieth he cōmon witnesses vnto bothe parties If any body will against this alledge the obscuritie of the Scriptures we must nedes confesse that whiche S. Paule saieth that y e naturall man knoweth not those thīges that be of God and that whiche Saint Peter sayeth y t the Scriptures be not of any priuate interpretation Well then if this obscuritie be so great that the Scriptures can not be exponded by them selues whence cometh this that Christe sēdeth vs no where els when he sayeth searche the Scriptures And how cōmeth it to pas y t Abraham being required by the vnhappy riche man to send some of the other world to admonishe them of this worlde they haue sayeth he Moses and the Prophetes if they beleue not them no more will they beleue when any shall ryse again from the dead And moreouer in what case had they bene in then that had no thing but y e scriptures of the Apostles before y t euer there was any cōmentaries written by the Ancients And yet further I remembre my Lorde Cardinall y t in youre oration youre aduyse was to receiue for sure interpretation and Apostolycall tradition that whiche haeth bene alweys

them that are superfluouse These pointes being resolued it is easie to decyde this question if the Churche be aboue the Scripture the whiche semeth to me to be so foolish a question as if one asked whether the infant or childe were aboue his father the woman aboue her husband yea the man aboue God And in very dede the trew Churche will neuer striue against God in suche a quarrell nor none other but will escaip condemnation And it serueth to no purpose to say that the Churche was before the Scripture For althogh that so it be yet it is so that this worde that afterwardes haeth bene written is alweys more ancient seinge that by the same the Churche hath bene conceiued ingendred and nourished as it haeth bene said The saying of S. Augustine is alledged in this behalf I wold not beleue the Scripture if y e authoritie of the Churche moued me not thereunto But here must ye cōsider that Saint Augustine speaketh of him self as a Manicheen When therefore two parties will debate or stryue for the treuth of an instrument vnto whome shall they haue recourse but vnto nota●ies w c kepe the registre thereof And yet notwithstanding it can not be said that the register is founded vpone y e witnessinges of notaries the whiche should not faill to be trew althogh no man liuing bare witnes thereof Euen so muche hereof must we answer vnto them that think that the authoritie of the canonicall bookes is not founded vpon that whiche the Churche haeth determined thereof as if it were so that there were found determinations of Councelles altogether diuers in this pointe y t whiche may be more at large declared in a mutuall conference It shall suffice me to alledge besides y t whiche I haue before spoken one onely reason accompanyed with the authoritie of some of the ancientes that be well approued The reason is this that Iesus Christ him self haeth so muche honored y e doctrine of the Prophetes that he ratified and proued his doctrine by y e witnessing of them S. Paule suffered that they of Tessalonique should do the lyke as it is written in the 17 chaptre of y e Actes Saint Petre haeth expresly allowed this maner of doing Then must not they that say that they be the vicares of Iesus Christe and successors of Saint Petre and S. Paule refuse the lyke condition And further consider what S. Ierome sayeth in the 9 chaptre of his second booke vpone Ieromie y t men must nether follow the error of their fathers nor of their ancitors but the authoritie of the Scriptures And Saint Chrisostome vpone the 24 of Saint Mathew in the 49 homelie The same man sayeth he that wold knowe whiche is y e trew Churche of Iesus Christe how shall he know it in so great a confusion of suche semblance or liknes also why is it that in y e tyme then all the Christians oght to retire and draw them selues to the Scriptures Forasmuche as that after that tyme that heresie had obteined and occupyed the Churches there might be no certē probation had of the trew Christianitie nor other refuge vnto Christians willing to know the treuth of the faith but the holie Scriptures Lykewyse oure Lorde knowing so great confusion to come in the latter dayes cōmādeth that the Christians whiche be in the Christianitie w c wold haue a trew and firme fayth should haue none other refuge but to y e Scriptures or els if they regarded other thinges they should be offended and perishe not knowinge what were the trew Churche and by that meanes they should fall in to the abhomination of desolation y t whiche is set in the holy place of the Churche Saint Basill also in his moralles the 12 chaptre of the 9 somme writeth thus if all thing that is without faith is sinne as the Apostle saieth and faith is by hearing and hearing is of the worde of God all that is without the Scripture whiche is inspired of God is sinne Lykewyse the same author in his sermon of the confession of the faith If the Lorde be faythful in all his wordes and all his cōmandementes be sure for euer done in veritie and righteousnes It is manifestly to turne frō the faith and a cryme of pride to reiecte any thing of that that is written or to introduce any thing more that haeth not bene written seing that oure Lorde Iesus Christ haeth said my shepe heare my voice follow not a stranger but flie frō him because they knowe not his word Hitherto Madame I haue answered according to the measure of the knowledge that God haeth geuen vs vnto y e first point of the last oration of my Lordes the Prelates concerning the estate and authoritie of y e Churche of oure Lorde Where of as yet we are redy to vnderstād all that shalbe shewed vnto vs by the pure worde of God There resteth the article of the Supper the w c I will leaf of if it please youre Maiestie aswell because ye are to long holden and all the present assistance as also because of the desire that we haue that this conference should be begonne after a better ordre because all that in speaking sōmarelie of a mater y t hitherto haeth bene wrapped vp in so greate obscuritie it should be very hard but that many wordes shoulde escape how trew soeuer they were that shoulde offend the heartes of them that should heare them Neuerthelesse if it pleaseth youre Maiestie that we go forwarde we are redy to speak therof that whiche the Lorde will giue vs to vnderstand Submitting alweys oure selues vnto that whiche shalbe shewed by the holy Scriptures And make humble supplication vnto youre maiestie to be persuaded that next to y e glorie of God there is no thing that we seke with so greate desyre as the rest and quietnes of youre Maiestie of all this Realme ❧ Ane answer the xxvj day of septembre the yere a thousand fyue hundreth sixtie and one ▪ Being arriued at Poyssy twelue ministers of the worde of God with twelue deputies of Churches in an hall where was the Quene mother the King Quene of Nauarre the princes of the blood royall and all the Lordes of Councell and other Lordes of the one syde of the other part 5 Cardinalles w t many bus●hops and Theologiens of all sortes My Lorde Cardinall of Lorrain declared in few wordes that this assemble was made to heare what y e said ministers had to say vnto that whiche he had proponded two dayes befor whereat Theodore rase vp in the name of the said xij ministers for all the Churches of France that be reformed and answered as followeth Madame the last tyme y t it pleased you to giue vs audience we made declaratiō according to y e grace that oure Lord gaue vs of the article y t was propoūded touching the Churche the marckes and authoritie of