penknife of Apoccrypha Ruffinus challengeth him for so doing and tells him of the gap that he hath opened for wild beasts to enter into this field of the Church and tread down all ill corn Jerom gives his reasons because they were not found in the Originall Copie as if the same spirit which gave to those whom it did inspire the diversities of tongues should it self be tied to one language but withall he acknowledgeth this much of those books which he had thus markt in the forehead Canonici sunt ad informandos mores sed non ad confirmandam fidem how poor a Distinction this is and how pernitious a president this was I leave it to Your Majestie to judge for after him Luther takes the like boldness and at once takes away the three Gospels of Mark Luke and John Others take away the epistle to the Hebrews others the epistle of Saint Jude others the second and third epistles of Saint Peter others the epistle of Saint James others the whole book of the Revelation Wherefore to permit what the Church proposes to be questionable by particular men is to bring down the Church the Scriptures and the Heavens upon our heads there was a Church before there was a Scripture which Scripture as to us had not been the Word of God if the Church had not made it so by teaching us to believe it The preaching of the Gospel was before the writing of the Gospell the Divine Truth that dispersed it self over the face of the whole earth before i'ts Divinitie was comprised within the Cannon of the Scripture was like that Primeva Lux which the world received before the light was gathered into the body of the Sun this body so glorious and comfortable is but the same light which was before we cannot make it an other though it be otherwise and therefore though the Church and the Scripture like the light that is concomitant and precedent to the Sun be distinct in tearms yet they are but one the same no man can see the Sun but by it's own light shut your eyes from this light and you cannot behold the body of the Sun Shut your eyes against one and you are blind in both he never had God to be his Father who had not the Church to be his Mother if you admit Sillogismes a priori you will meet with many paralogismes a posteriori cry down the Churches Authoritie pull out the Scriptures efficacie give but the Church the lie now and then and you shall have enough will tell you the Scripture is false here and there they who have set so little by the tradition of the Church have set by halfe the Scriptures and will at last throw all away wherefore in a word as to denie any part of the Scripture were to open a vain so to question any thing which the Church proposes is to teare the seamlesse Coat of Christ and to pierce his body King My Lord I see you are better provided with Arguments then I am with memorie to run through the series of your Discourse satisfie me but in one thing and I shall soone yield to all that you have said and that is concerning this Catholick Church you talke of I know the creed tels us that we must believe it and Christ tells us that we must hear it but neither tell us that that is the Church of Rome Marq. Gratious Sir the creed tells us that it is the Catholick Church and Saint Paul tells us in his epistle to the Romans that their faith was spread abroad through the whole world King That was the Faith which the Romanes then believed which is nothing to the Roman Faith which is now believed Marq. The Romane Faith then and now are the same King I denie that my Lord. Marq. When did they alter their Faith King That requires a librarie neither is it requisite that I tell you the time when if the envious man sowes his tares whilst the husband-man was asleep and afterwards he awakes and sees the tares are they not tares because the hushand-man knowes not when they were sown Marq. And if it please Your Majestie in a thing that is so apparent your similitude holds good but in the differences between us and the protestants are not so without dispute as that it is yet granted by the major part of Christians that they are errours which we believe contrary to Your Tenents and therefore the similitude holds not but I shall humbly intreat Your Majestie to consider the proofes which the learned Cardinal Peroone hath made concerning this particular in his answer to Your Royall Father his Apologie to all Christian Princes where he proves how that all the Tenents which are in controversie now between you and us were practised in the Church of Christ within the first three hundred years wherefore I think it would be no injury to reason to require belief that that which hath been so long continued in the Church and so universaly received and no time can be set down when those Tenents or Ceremonies did arise must needs be Catholick for time and place and Apostolical for institution though we have no warrant from the Scriptures to believe them to be such For the Apostle Saint Paul commanded Timothy to keep fast the things which he had delivered unto him as well by word as by writ Wherefore if we will believe no tradition we may come at last to believe no writings King That was your own fault wherefore I blame your Church for the way to make the Scriptures not believed were to adde unto them new inventions and say they were Scriptures Marq. If the Church of Christ had so mean esteeme then as amongst some she hath now certainly the former books received into her Cannon would have been much prejudiced by the admittance of the latter wherefore if the Church be questionable then all is brought in question King My Lord you have not satisfied me where this Church is and as concerning the Cardinals book I have seen it and have read a part of it but do not remember neither do I believe that he hath prov'd that which you say Marq. It may be the proofes were in that part of the book which Your Majestie did not read and as for my proving the Romane Church to be this Church by which we should be all guided I thus shall do my endeavour That Church whose Doctrine is most Catholick and universall must be the Catholick Church but the Romane Church is such Ergo. King My Lord I denie your Minor the Romane Church is not more universall the Grecian Church is far more spreading and if it were not it were no Argument for the Church of the Mahumetanes is larger then both Marq. First This is no Argument either for an English Man or a Protestant but for a Grecian or Mahumetane not for an English Man because he received his Conversion from Rome and therefore he in Reason should not
look beyond Rome or the Doctrine that Rome practised then when they converted England nor for a Protestant because he is as far distant from the Grecian Church in matter of opinion as from the Romane and therefore he need not look for that which he hath no desire to find besides the Greek Church hath long ago submitted to the Church of Rome and there is no reason that others should make Arguments for her who are not of her when she stands in no competition her self besides there is not in any place where ever the Greek Church is or hath been planted where there are not Romane Catholicks but there are divers Countreys in Christendome where there is not one Professour of the Greek Church neither is there a place in all the Turks Dominions where there are not Romane Catholickes nor in any part of the world where there are not multitude of Romanes neither is there a Protestant Countrey in Christendome where there are not Roman Catholicks numberlesse but not a Protestant amongst the Natives neither of Spanie or Italy Shew me but one Protestant Countrey in the world who ever deserted the Romane Faith but they did it by Rebellion except England and there the King and the Bishops were the principall reformers I pray God they do not both suffer for it Shew me but one reformed Church that is of the opinion of an other ask an English Protestant where was your Religion before Luther and he will tell you of Hus and Jerom of Prag search for their Tenents and you shall find them as far different from the English Protestant as they are from one another run to the Waldensis for your Religions antiquity and you shall find as much difference in their Articles and ours as can be between Churches that are most opposite Come home to your own Countrey and derive your descent from Wickliffe and search for his Tenents in the book of Martyrs and you shall find them quite contrary to ours neither amongst any of your moderne Protestant shall you find any other agreement but in this one thing that they all protest against the Pope Shew me but any Protestant Countrey in the world where Reformation as you call it ever set her foot where she was not as well attended with sacriledge as usher'd by Rebellion and I shall lay my hand upon my mouth for ever King My Lord my Lord you are gone beyond the scope of your Argument which required you to prove the Romane Church more Catholick then the Greek which you have not done you put me off with my being English and not a Grecian whereas when we speak of the universality of a Church I think that any man who is belonging to the universe is objectum rationis And if that be the manner of your Election then I am sure most voices must carry it for your alleaged submission of the Greek Church unto the Roman I believe it cannot be prov'd but it may be the Patriarch of Constantinople may submit unto the Pope of Rome and yet the Greek Church may not submit unto the Romane Marq. Sir it is no dishonour for the Sun to make its progress from East to West it is still the same Sun and the difference is onely in the shadowes which are made to differ according to the varieties of shapes that the severall substances are of East and West are two divisions but the same day neither can they be said or imagined to be greater or more extending one or other and the one may have the benefit of the Suns light though the other may have its glory and I believe no man of sober judgement can say that any Church in the world is more generally spread over the face of the whole world or that her glory shines in any place more conspicuously then at this day in Rome King My Lord If externall glory be the Sun-shine of the Gospel then the Church is there indeed but if internall sanctity inward holyness be the Essences of a Church then we may be as much to seek for such a Church within the Wals of Rome as any where else Marq. Who shall be Judge of that I pray observe the Injustice and Errours that will arise if every man may be admitted to be his own judge you of the Church of England left your Mother the Church of Rome and Mother to all the Churches round about You forsook her and set up a new Church of your own Independent to her there comes a new generation and doth the like to you and a third generation that is likely to do the like to that and the Church falls and falls untill it falls to all the pieces of Independencie It is a hard case for a part to fall away from the whole and to be their own judges Why should not Kent fall away from England and be their own judges as well as England fall away from Christendome and be their own judges why should not a Parish in Kent fall away from the whole County and be their own judges why should not one Family fall away from the whole Parish and be their own judges why should not one man fall away in his opinion from that Family and be his own judge If you grant one you must grant all and I fear me in doing one you have done all So that every man dispiseth the Church whilst he is a Church to himself rayles against Popery and is the greatest Pope himself dispiseth the Fathers and will enthrone his own judgement above the wisdome of the ancient refuseth Expositours that he may have bis own sence and if he can start up but some new opinions he thinks himself as worthy a member of Christianity as if he were an Apostle to some new found land Now Sir though some do take the Church to be the Scriptures yet the Scriptures cannot be the Church because the Scriptures send us to the Church audi Ecclesiam dic Ecclesiae others take the Elect to be the Church yet this cannot be for we know not who are elect and who not that which must be the Church must be a visible an eminent societie of men to whose Authoritie in cases of appeale and matter of judgement we are to acquiesse and subscribe And I appeale to Your Royall heart whether there be a Church in the world to whom in these respects we ought to reverence and esteeme more then the Church of Rome and that the Church of Rome is externally glorious it doth not follow that therefore she is not internall holy for the Kings daughters clothing was of wrought gold as well as she was all glorious within and though she had never so many Divine graces within her yet she had honourable women without her as her attendants and for the question whether this inward glory is to be so much sought for within the gates of Rome is the question and not yet decided King My Lord I l'e deale as ingeniously with you
of my memory for so good a work and imploring a blessing upon my endeavours To which I made answer My Lord no question but you think it a good work or else you would not implore Gods blessing upon it Whereupon my Lord said Ah! Doctor I would to God you thought so too And waiting upon him into his Chamber he further said unto me Doctor Bayly you know I am obliged not to speak unto you in this nature yet I hope I may say thus much unto you without any breach of promise you may be an Instrument of the greatest good that ever befell this Nation I say no more Good night to you The third day after he gave me this Paper to deliver unto His Majestie which I did The Marquess his Paper to the King IT must be granted by all that there must be alwayes in the world one holy Catholick and Apostolique Church one that it may be uniforme holy that it may be certain Catholick that it may be known and Apostolick that it may succeed this Church must be either the Romane or the Protestant or else some other that is opposite to both It cannot be any Church which is opposite to both because the Church of England did not when she separated from the Romane joyn her self to any not to the Grecian for that houlds as many Doctrines contrary to the Church of England as doth the Romane nor to any else because she agrees with none no reformed Church under the Sun that is or ever was hath the same articles of beliefe as hath the Church of England and from any other Church besides the Romane she never had a being and with any other Church besides the Romane she never had Communion She cannot be that one because she is but one nor Catholick because she agrees not with any nor Apostolick because she hath acknowledged such a fine and recovery that has quite cut off the entaile which would have otherwise descended unto her from the Apostles neither can she be holy because she is none of all the other three Now if these Attributes cannot belong unto the Protestant Religion and do clearly belong unto the Roman then is the Church of Rom the Catholick Church And that it doth I shall prove it by the marks which God Almighty hath given us whereby we should know her And the first is Vniversality All Nations shall flow unto her Esa 2. 2. And the Psalmist The heathen shall be thine inheritance and the uttermost part of the Earth for thy possession Psal 2. 2. And our Saviour Matth. 20. 14. This Gospel of the Kingdome shall be preached in all the world as a witness to all Nations c. Now I confesse that this glory is belonging to all Professors of the Christian Religion yet amongst all those who do profess the name of Christ I believe Your Majestie will consent with me herein that the Romane Church hath this forme of universality not onely above all different and distinct Professors of Religion but also beyond all Religions of the world Turkes or heathens and that there is no place in the world where there are not Romane Catholicks which is manifestly wanting to all other Religions whatsoever Now I hope Your Majestie cannot say so of any Protestant Religion neither that Your Majestie will call all those who protest against the Church of Rome otherwise then Protestants but not Protestant Catholicks or Catholicks of the Protestant Religion being they are not religated within the same Communion and fellowships for then Religion would consist in protestation rather then unity in Nations falling off from one another rather then all nations flowing to one another neither is it a Consideration altogether invalid that the Church of Rome hath kept possession of the name all along other reformed Churhes leaving her in possession of the name and taking unto themselves new names according to their severall founders except the Church of England who is now herself become like a Chapter that is full of nothing else whose founder was such a one whose name it may be they were unwilling to own For antiquitie if we should inquire after the old paths which is the good way and walk therein as the Prophet Jeremiah adviseth us if we should take our Saviours rule Ab initio autem non fuit sic if we should observe his saying how the good seed was first formed and then the tares If we should consider the pit from whence we were dug and the rock from whence we were hewen we shall find antiquity more applicatory to the Church of Rome then any Protestant Church But you will say your Religion is as ancienâ— as ours having its procedure from Christ and his Apostles so say the Lutheran Protestants with their Doctrine of Consubstantiation and many other sorts of Protestants having other Tenents altogether contrary to what you hold how shall we reconcile you so say all hereticks that ever were how shall we confute them a part to set up themselves against the whole and by the power of the sword to make themselves Judges in their own causes is dealing that were it your case I am sure you would think it very hard I wish you may never find it so For Visibility Our Saviour compares his Church to a Citie placed on a hill according unto the Prophet Davids Prophesie a Tabernacle in the Sun It is likewise compared unto a candle in a candle-stick not under a bushell and saith our Saviour If they shall say unto you behold he is in the desart go ye not forth Behold he is in secret places believe it not forewarning us against obscure and invisible Congregations Now I beseech Your Majestie whether should I betake my self to a Church that was alwayes visible and gloriously eminent Or to a Protestant Church that was never eminent and for the most part invisible shrowding their defection under an Apostolicall Expression of a woman in the Revelation who fled into the wilderness for a thousand years as if an allegory could wipe out so many clear texts of Scripture as are set down by our Saviour and the Prophets concerning the Churches invisibility And I could not find any Church in the world to whom that Prophesy of Esay might more fitly appertain then to the Church of Rome I have set watch-men upon the walls which shall never hold their peace day nor night which I am sure no Protestant Church can apply to her self It is not enough to say I maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the Apostles taught and therefore I am of the true Church ancient and visible enough because as I have said before every heretick will say as much but if you cannot by these markes of the Church set down in Scripture clear your selves to be the true Church you vainly appeal to the Scriptures siding with you in any particular point for what can be more obsurd then to appeale from Scripture setting things down clearly unto Scripture
thy Covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is water by this pit could not be meant the place of the damned for they have no share in the Covenant neither are they Christs prisoners but the devils neither could this pit be the grave because Christs grave was a new pit where never any was laid before The Fathers affirm as much Saint Hier in 4. ad Ephes Saint Greg. li. 13. Moral ca. 20. Saint Aug. in Psal 3. 7. v. 1. We hold purgatory fire where satisfaction shall be made for sinnes after death you deny it we have Scripture for it 1 Gor 3. 13. 15. The fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is if any mans work shall de burnt he shall suffer losse but he himselfe shall be saved yet so as by fire Saint Aug so interprets this place upon the 37. Psalme also Saint Amb upon 1 Cor 3. and Ser 20. in Ps 118. Saint Hier lib. 2. chap 13. ad vers Joan Saint Greg li 4. dialog ca 39. Orig. hom 6. in ca 15. Exod. Lastly We hold extream Vnction to be a Sacrament you neither hold it be a Sacrament neither doe you practise it as a duty we have Scripture for it James 5. 13. Is any sick among you let him call the Elders of the Church and let them pray over him annointing him with oyle in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up and if he have committed sins they shall be forgiven him Neither any nor all the Sacraments were or could be more effectual mens good nor more substantiall in matter nor more exquisite in forme nor more punctuall in designation of its ministry other Sacraments being bounded within the limits of the souls only good this extends it self to the good both of soul and body he shall recover from his sicknesse and his sins shall be forgiven him and yet it is both left out in your practise and acknowledgment The Fathers are on our side Orig Hom 2. in Levit S. Chrys lib 3. de Sacerd S. Aug in speculo Ser 215. de temp Vener Bed in 6. Marke and S. James and many others Thus most Sacred SIR we have no reason to wave the Scriptures umpirage so that you will hear it speake in the mother language and not produce it as a witnesse on your side when the producers tell us nothing but their owne meaning in a language unknown to all the former ages and then tell us that shee saith so and they will have it so because he that hath a Bible and a sword shall carry away the meaning from him that hath a Bible and ne're a sword nor is it more blasphemy to say that the Scripture is the Churches off-spring because it is the word of God then it is for me to say I am the sonne of such a man because God made me instrumentally I am so and so was shee for as saith S. Aug Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commoveret I should not believe the Gospel it self unlesse I were moved by the authority of the Church There was a Church before there was a Scripture take which Testament you please We grant you that the Scripture is the Originall of all light yet we see light before we see the Sun and we know there was a light when there was no Sun the one is but the body of the other We grant you the Scriptures to be the Celestiall globe but we must not grant you that every one knowes how to use it or that it is necessary or possible they should We grant that the Scripture is a light to our feet and a lanthorne to our paths then you must grant me that it is requisite that we have a guide or else we may lose our way in the light as well as in the darke We grant you that it is the food of our souls yet there must be some body that must divide or break the bread We grant you that it is the only antidote against the infection of the Devil yet it is not every ones profession to be a compounder of the ingredients We grant Your Majesty the Scripture to be the only sword and buckler to defend a Church from her Ghostly enemies yet I hope you will not have the glorious company of the Apostles and the goodly fellow ship of the Prophets to exclude the noble Army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledge Christ wherefore having shewen Your Majesty how much the Scriptures are ours I shall now consider Your opinions apart from us and see how they are Yours and who sides with You in Your opinion besides Your selfe and first I shall crave the boldnesse to begin with the Protestants of the Church of England The Church of England WHose Religion as it is in opposition to ours consists altogether in denying for what she affirmes we affirme the same as the Real presence the infallibility visibility universality and unity of the Courch confession and remission of sins free-will and possibility of keeping the Commandments c. all these things you deny and you may as well deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture only inference then that which ye have already denied and for which we have plaine Scripture Fathers Councels practise of the Church Whereas matters of so weighty concernment as delivering of mens souls into the Devils hands should not be executed but upon mature deliberation and immergent occasions and not by any but those who have the undoubted authority lest otherwise you make the authority it self to be doubted of that which ye hold positive in your discipline is more erroneous then that which is negative in our Doctrine as your maintaining a woman to be Head Supreame or Moderatrix in the Church who by the Apostles rule is not to speak in the Church or that a Lay-man may be so what Scripture or Fathers or custome have ye for this or that a Lay-man as your Lay-Chancellours should Excommunicate and deliver up soules to Sathan a strange Religion whose Ministers are deny'd the power of remitting sins whilst Lay-men are admitted to the power of retaining them and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of fees and the like Whereas such practises as these have rendred the rod of Aaron no more formidable then a reed shaken with the wind so that you have brought it to this that whilst such men as these were permitted to excommunicate for a three-peny matter the people made not a three-peny matter of their Evcommunication The Church of Saxony NOw for the Church of Saxony you shall find Luther a man not only obtruding new Doctrine upon his Disciples without Scripture or contrary to Scripture but also Doctrine denying Scripture to be Scripture and vilipending those books of Scripture which were received into the Canon and acknowledged to be
Antichrist Babylon and all the spitefull and vile names that can be imagined they forget that saying of the Apostle St. James If any man among you seeme to be religious bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his own heart that mans Religion is in vaine Pure Religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this to visit the fatherlesse and widows in their affliction and to keep himself unspotted from the world What should I say more the Scriptures are made a nose of wax for every bold hand to wring it which way he pleaseth they are rejected by private men by whole books The Articles of our Creed are said not to be of the Apostle framing the commandments not belonging to Christians impossible to be kept the Sacraments denied Charity not onely grown cold but quite starved and they will be sav'd by meanes quite contrary to what the Gospel which they seeme to profess sets down viz. by Faith without good works onely believe that 's enough where as the holy Apostle Saint James tells us that faith profiteth nothing without good works Here the Marquess was going on and His Majestie interrupted him King My Lord you let a flood-gate of Arguments out against my naked breast yet it doth not bear me any thing backwards you have spoken a great many things that no way concerns Us but such as we find fault with as much as you and other things to which I could easily give answer If I could take but some of that time and leasure that you have taken to compose your Arguments It is not onely the Picture of our Saviour but the Pictures of Saints which you both worship and adore and maintaine it to be lawfull and not onely so but the Picture of God the Father like an old man and many other things which I forbear because I fear you have done your self more hurt then me good in depriving your self of the rest to which you are accustomed for whilst our Arguments do multiplie our time lessons to that of Saint James where it is said that faith profiteth nothing without good works I hope the Doctor here can tell you that Saint Paul saith that we are justified by Faith and not by the works of the Law Marq. Sir I believe the Doctor will neither tell Your Majestie nor me that Faith can justifie without works King That question the Doctor can soon decide what say you to it Doctor you must speak now Doctor If it may please Your Majestie it would be as great a disobedience to hold my peace now I am commanded to speak as it would have been a presumption in me to speak before I was commanded I am so far from thinking that either Faith without good works or that good works without Faith can justifie that I cannot Believe that there is such a thing as either No more then I can imagine that there may be a tree bearing fruit without a root or that the Sun can be up before it be day or that a fire can have no heat for although it be possible that a man may do some good without Faith yet he cannot do good works without it for though we may naturally incline to some goodnesse as flowers and plants naturally grow to perfection Yet this good cannot be said to be wrought by us but by the hand of Faith and Faith her self where she is truly so can no more stand still then can the Sun in the Firmament or refuse to let her hight so shine before men that they may see her good works then the same Sun can appear in the same Firmament and dart no beams And whilst Faith and good works strive for the proprietie of Justification I do believe they both exclude a third which hath more right to our Justification then either For that which we call Justification by Faith is not properly Justification but onely an apprehension of it as that vvhich we call Justification by good works is not properly Justification but onely a Declaration of it to be so exempli gratia I receive a pardon my hand that receiv's it doth not justifie 't is put in execution and read in open Court all this did not procure it me Doubtless there is a reward for the righteous doubtless there is a God that judgeth the Earth wherefore upon this ground of belief I work out my Salvation as well as I can and do all the good that lies in my power I do good works Doubtless this man hath some reason for what he doth it is because he hath store of Faith which Believes there is a God and that that God will accept of his endeavours wherefore to him alone who hath given us Faith and hath wrought all our good vvorks in us can vve properly attribute the tearme of Justification Justificatio apprehensiva vve may conceive and beare in our hearts Justificatio declarativa vve may shevv vvith our hands but Justificatio Effectiva proper and effectuall Justification none can lay claim unto but Christ alone that as our sins vvere imputed unto Christ so his righteousness might be ours by imputation King Doctor I thank you in this point I believe you have reconciled us both Doctor May it please Your Majestie if the venome vvere taken out there is no vvound in the Churches body but might soon be healed Marq. Hereat the Marquess somewhat earnestly cried Hould Sir You have said well in one respect but there are two wayes of Justification in us and two without us Christ is a cause of Justification by his grace and merits without us and so we are justified by baptisme and we are justified by the gifts of God in us viz. Faith Hope and Charitity Whereupon the King spake as quickly King But my Lord both Justifications come from Christ according to your own saying that without us by his grace and merit that within us by his gifts and favour therefore Christ is all in all in the matter of Justification therefore though there were a thousand wayes and meanes to our Justification yet thâ—re is but one effectuall cause and that is Christ Marq. How is it then that we are called by the Apostle Cooperarii Christo Fellow-workers together with Christ King The Doctor hath told you how already If you lie wallowing in sin and Christ helps you out your reaching of him your hand is a working together with Christ Yet for all that it cannot be said that you helped your self out of the ditch for then there had been no need of Christ Your apprehending the succour that came unto you no way attributes the God have mercie to your self no more then the declaring your self to be alive by action is the cause of setting you upon your legg's so that we may divide this threefold Justification as Peter divided his three Tabernacles here is one for Moses and one for Elias I pray let us have one for Christ and let that be the chiefe Marq. And Reason good King I
wish that all Controversies betwixt you and Us were as well decided I am fully satisfied in this point Doctor May it please Your Majestie A great many Controversies between us and the Papists might be soon decided if the Churches revennues which were every where taken away more or less where differences in Religion in several parts of the world did arise in the Church were not an obstacle of the reunion like the stone which the Crab cast into the Oyster which hindred it from ever shutting it self again like the division which happened between the Greek and Latin Church Photinus intrudes himself into the Patriarch-ship of Constantinople over the head of Ignatius the lawfull Patriarch thereof whom the Pope preserved in his Communion and then the difference of the Procession of the holy Ghost between those two Churches was fomented by the sayd Photinus least the wound should heale to soone and the patient should not be held long enough in cure for the benefit of the Chyrurgion Sacriledge hath brought more divisions then the nature of their causes have required and the universities play with edged tools whilst hungry stomacks run away with their meat wherefore since Your Majestie was pleased to discharge the watch that I had set before the door of my lips I shall make bold to put Your Majestie in mind of houlding my Lord to the demand which Your Majestie once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were througly determined all Controversies not onely between Your Majestie his Lordship but also all the Controversies that ever were started would soon be decided at a short race end and without this we take away the meanes of reconciliation For I must confesse ingeniously yet under the highest correction that there is not a thing that I ever understood less then that assertion of the Scriptures being judge of Controversies though in some sence I must and will acknowledge it but not as it is a book consisting of papers words and letters for as we commonly say in matters of civil differences the Law shall be the Judge between us we do not mean that every man shall run unto the Law books or that any Lawyer himself shall search his Law-cases and thereupon possess himself of any thing that is in question between him and another without a legall trial and determination by lawfull Judges constituted to that same purpose In like manner saving knowledge and Divine Truths are the portion that all Gods children layes fast claime unto yet they must not be their own carvers though it is their own meat that is before them whilst they have a mother at the table They must not slight all Orders Constitutions Appeales and Rules of Faith Saving knowledge and Divine Truths are not to be wrested from the Scripture by private hands for then the Scripture were of private interpretation which is against the Apostles Rule neither are those undefiled incorruptible and immaculate inheritances which are reserved for us in heaven to be conveighed unto us by any Privy-seales For there is nothing more absurd to my understanding then to say that the thing contested which is the true meaning of the Scriptures shall be Judge of the Contestation no way inferiour to that absurditie which would follow would be this if we should leave the deciding of the sence of the words of the Law to the preoccupated understanding of one of the Advocates neither is this all the absurditie that doth arise upon this Supposition for if you grant this to one you must grant it to any one and to every one if there were but two how will you reconcile them both If you grant that this judicature must be in many there are many manyes which of the manyes will you have decide but that and you satisfie all For if you make the Scripture the Judge of Controversie you make the reader Judge of the Scripture as a man consists of a soul and body so the Scripture consists of the letter and the sence if I make the dead letter my Judge I am the greatest and simplest idolater in the world it will tell me no more then it told the Indian Emperour Powhaton who asking the Jesuite how he knew all that to be true which he had told him and the Jesuite answering him that Gods word did tell him so The Emperour asked him where it was he shewed him his Bible The Emperour after that he had held it in his hands a prittie while answered It tells me nothing But you will say you can read and so you will find the meaning out of the significant Character and when you have done as you apprehend it so it must be and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning wherefore necessitie requires an external Judge for determination of differences besides the Scriptures And we can have no better recourses to any then to such as the Scripture it self calls upon us to hear which is the Church which Church would be found out King Doctor Saint John in his first Epistle tells us that the holy Scripture is that to whose truth the Spirit beareth witness And John the Evangelist tells us that the Scripture is that which gives a greater Testimonie of Christ then John the Baptist Saint Luke tells us that if we believe not the Scripture we would not believe though one were risen from the dead and Christ himself who raised men from death to life tells us they cannot believe his words if they believe not in Moses writings Saint Peter tells us that the holy Scriptures is surer then a voice from heaven Saint Paul tells us that it is lively in operation and whereby the Spirits demonstrates his power and that it is able to make a man wise to salvation able to save our soules and that it is sufficient too to make us believe in Christ to live everlasting John 20. As in every seed there is a Spirit which meeting with earth heat and moisture grows to perfection so the seed of the word wherein Gods holy Spirit being sowen in the heart inlivened by the heat of faith and watered with the teares of repentance soon fructifies without any further Circumstance Doctor It doth so but Your Majestie presupposes all this while husband-men and husbandery barnes and threshing floures winnowing and uniting these severall graines into one loafe before it can become childrens bread All that Your Majestie hath said concerning the Scriptures sufficiencie is true provided that those Scriptures be duly handled for as the Law is sufficient to determine right and keep all in peace and quiteness yet the execution of that sufficiencie cannot be performed without Courts and Judges so when we have granted the Scriptures to be all that the most reverend estimation can attribute unto them yet Religion cannot be exercised nor differences in Religion reconciled without a Judge For as Saint Jerom tells us who was no great friend to Popes or Bishops Si
themselves lesse obnoxious to error either in life or doctrine more to be preferred then any or all the world besides one of them betraies his Saviour another denies him all forsake him They thought Christs Kingdome to have been of this world and a promise only unto the Jewes and not unto the Gentiles and this after the resurrection They wondred that the holy Ghost should fall upon the Gentiles Saint John twice worshipped the Angel and was rebuked for it Apoc. 22. 8. Saint Paul saw how Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel Gal. 2. 14. Not only Peter but other of the Apostles were ignorant how the word of God was to be preached unto the Gentiles But who then shall rowl away the stone from the mouth of the monument Who shall expound the Scriptures to us one puls one way and another another by whom shall we be directed Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus You that cry up the Fathers the Fathers so much shall hear how the Fathers do tell us that the Scriptures are their own interpreters Irenaeus who was scholler to Policarpus that was schollar to Saint John lib. 3. ca. 12. thus saith Ostentiones quae sunt in Scripturis non possunt ostendi nisi ex ipsis Scripturis the evidences which are in Scripture cannot be manifested but out of the same Scripture Clemeus Alexandinus Nos ex ipsis deipsis Scripturis perfecte demonstrantes ex fide persuademus demonstrative Strom. li. 7. Out of the Scriptures themselves from the same Scriptures perfectly demonstrating doe we draw demonstrative perswasions from faith Crysost Sacra Scriptura seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Basilius Magnus Quae ambigue quae obscure videntur dici in quibusdam locis sacrae Scripturae ab ijs quae in alijs locis aperta perspicua sunt explicantur Hom 13. in Gen. Those things which may seem to be ambiguous and obsure in certain places of the holy Scripture must be explicated from those places which else-where are plain and manifest Augustinus Ille qui cor habet QuestionuÌ„ asceticaruÌ„ secundum eptt regula tre cenâ—ssi ema sexagessima quod precisum est jungat Scripturae legat superiora vel inferiora et in veniet sensum Let him who hath a precise heart joyne it unto the Scriptures and let him observe what goes before and that which follows after and he shall find out the sense Gregorius saith Ser. 49. De verbis Domini Per Scripturam loquitur deus omne quod vult et voluntas dei sicut in testamento sic in evangelio inquiratur By Scripture God speaks his whole mind and the will of God as in the old Testament so in the new is to be found out Optatus contra parmenonem lib. 5. Num quis aequior arbiter veritatis divinae quam deus out ubi deus manifestius loquitur quam in verbo suo Is there a better judge of the divine verity then God himselfe or where dorh God more manifestly declare himself then in his own word What breath shall we believe then but that which is the breath of God the holy Scriptures for it seems all one to Saint Paul to say dicit Sriptura the Scripture saith Rom. 4. 3. and dicit Deus the Lord saith Rom. 9. 17. The Scripture hath concluded all under sin Gallathians 3. 22. for that which Romans 11. 32. he saith God hath concluded all c. how shall we otherwise conclude then but with the Apostle 1 Cor. 2. 12. we have received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given unto us of God They who know not this spirit do deride it but this spirit is the hidden Manna Apo. 2. 17. which God giveth them to eat who shall overcome it is the white stone wherein the new name is written which no man knoweth but he that received it Wherefore we see the Scripture is the rule by which all difference may be composed it is the light wherein we must walk the food of our souls an antidote that expels any infection the only sword that kils the enemy the only plaster that can cure our wounds and the only documents that can be given towards the attainment of ever lasting salvation The Marquesses reply to the Kings Paper May it please your most excellent Majestie YOur Majestie is pleased to wave all the marks of the true Church and to make recourse unto the Scriptures I humbly take leave to ask Your Majestie what heretique that ever was did not do so How shall the greatest heretique in the world be confuted or censured if any man may be permitted to appeal to Scriptures margind with his own notes senc'd with his own meaning and enlivened with his own private spirit to what end were those marks so fully both by the Prophets the Apostles and our Saviour himself set down if we make no use of them To what use are land marks set up if Marriners will not believe them to be such Yet notwithstanding after that I have said what I have to say in removall of certain obstacles that lie in the way I shall lead your Majesty to my Church through the full body of the Scriptures or not at all and then I shall leave it to your royall heart to judge when you shall see that we have Scripture on our side whether or no the interpretation thereof be likelier to be true that hath been adjudged so by Councels renowned Fathers famous for sanstity and holinesse of life continued for the space of a thousand or twelve hundred years by your own confession universally acknowledged or that such a one as Luther his word shall be taken either without Scripture or against it with sic volo and sic Jubeo a man who confessed himself that he received his doctrine from the Devil or such a one as Calvin and their associates notoriously infamous in their lives conversations plain rebels to their Moses and Aaron united to the same person should counter-ballance al the worthies deterninations of Councels the continued practices which so many ages produced If your Majesty means by the Church all the professors of the Gospel all that are Christians are so the true Church then we are so in your own sense and you in ours then none who believe in the blessed Trinity the articles of the Creed none who deny the Scriptures to be the word of God let them consture them as they please can be hereticall or of a wrong Religion therefore we must contradistinguish them thus and by the Protestant Church and Religion we must understand those opinions which the Protestants hold contrary to the Church of Rome and by the Romane the opinions which they hold dissenting from the Protestant and then we will see whether we have Scripture for our religion or not and whether you have Scripture for what you maintain
and whose opinions are most approved of by the Primitive times Fathers and what ground your late Divines have built their new opinions upon and then I shall give your Majesty an answer to the objection which you make against our Church viz. That she hath forsaken her first love and fallen from the principles which she held when she converted us to Christianity But first to the removall of those rubs in our way and then I shall shew as much reverence to the Scripture as any Protestant in the world and shall endeavour to shew your Majesty that the Sctiptures are the Basis or foundation upon which our Church is built Your Majesty was pleased to urge the errors of certain Fathers to the prejudice of their authority which I conceive would have been so had they been all Montanists Rebaptists all Anthropomorphists and all of them generally guilty of the faults where-with they were severally charged in the particulars seeing that when we produce a Father we doe not intend to produce a man in whose mouth was never found guile the infallibility being never artributed by us otherwise then unto the Church not unto particular Church-men as Your Majesty hath most excellenly observed in the failings of the holy Apostles who erred after they had received the holy Ghost in so ample manner but when they were all gathered together in Councell and could send about their edicts with these capitall letters in the front Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Acts 15. 28. then I hope your Majesty cannot say that it was possible for them to erre So though the Fathers might erre in particulars yet those particular errors would be swallowed up in a generall Councel and be no more considerable in respect of the whole then so many heat-drops of error can stand in competition with a cloud of witnesses to the divine truth be no more prejudiciall to their general determinations then so many exceptions are prejudicial to a general rule Neither is a particular defection in any man any exception against his testimony cept it be in the thing wherhin he is deficient for otherwise we should be of the nature of the flies who only prey upon corruption leaving all the rest of the body that is whole unregarded Secondly Your Majesty taxes generall Councels for committing errors If Your Majesty would be pleased to search into the times wherein those Councels were called Your Majesty shall find that the Church was then under persecution and how that Arrian Emperours rather made Assemblies of Divines then called any generall Councels and if we should suppose them to be generall and free Councels yet they could not be erroneous in any particular mans judgement untill a like generall Councel should have concluded the former to be erroneous except you wil allow particulars to condemn generals private men the whol Church all generall Councels from the first unto the last that ever were or shall be maks but one Church and though in their intervails there be no session of persons yet there is perpetuall virtue in their decretals to which every man ought to appeal for judgment in point of controversie Now as it is a maxim in our law Nullum tempus occurrit regi so it is a maxim in divinity Nullum tempus occurrit deo Vbi deus est as he promised I will be with you alwaies unto the end of the world that is with his Church in directing her chief Officers in all their consultations relating either to the truth of her doctrine or the manner of her discipline wherefore if it should be granted that the Church had at any time determined amiss the Church cannot be said to have erred because you must not take the particular time for the Catholick Church because the Church is as well Catholick for time as territory except that you will make rectification an error For as in civil affairs if that wee should take advantage of the Parliaments nulling former Acts and thereupon conclude that we will be no more regulated by its lawes we should breed confusion in the Common-wealth for as they alter their lawes upon experience of present inconveniences so the Councels cange their decrees according to that further knowledge which the holy writ assures us shall encrease in the latter daies provided that this knowledge he improved by means approved of and not by every enthusiastick that shall oppose himself against the whole Church If I recall my own words it is no error but an avoidance of error so where the same power rectifies it selfe though some things formerly have been decreed amiss yet that cannot render the decrees of generall Councels not binding or incident to error quoad ad noâ— though in themselves and protempore they may be so As to Your Majesties objecting the errors of the holy Apostles and pen-men of the holy Ghost and Your inference thereupon viz. That truth is no where to be found but in holy Scripture under Your Majesties correction I take this to be the greatest argument against the private spirit urged by your Majesty its leading us into all truth that could possibly be found out For if such men as they indued with the holy Ghost inabled with the power of working miracles so sanctyfied in their callings and enlightened in their understandings could erre how can any man lesse quallified assume to himself a freedome from not erring by the assistance of a private spirit Lastly as to Your Majesties quotations of so many Fathers for the Scriptures easines and plainnesse to be understood If the Scriptures themselves doe tell us that they are hard to be understood so that the unleaned and unstable wrest them to their own destruction 2 Peter 3. 16. and if the Scripture tells us that the Eunuch could not understand them except some man should guide him as Acts 8. 13. and if the Scripture tels us that Christs own Disciples could not understand them untill Christ himself expounds them unto them as Luke 24. 25. and if the Scriptures tell us how the Angel wept much because no man was able either in heaven or earth to open the Book sealed with seven seals nor to look upon it as Apoc. 5. 1. then certainly all these sayings of theirs are either to be set to the errata's that are be hind their books or else we must look out some other meaning of their words then what Your Majesty hath inferr'd from thence as thus they were easie id est in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis or thus they were easie as to the attainment of particular salvation but not as to the generall cognisance of all the divine mystery therein contained requisite for the Churches understanding and by her alone and her consultations and discusments guided by an extraordinary and promised assistance only to be found out of which as to every ordinary man this knowledge is not necessary so hereof he is not capable First we hold the reall presence
without spot or wrincle Ephesians 5. 27 such a Church as shall be enlivened for ever with his Spirit Isaiah 59 21 The Fathers affirm the same Saint Aug Contra Crescon lib 1. ca. 3. Saint Cypr Epist 55. ad Cornel. num 3. Saint Irenaeus lib 3. chap 4. Cum multis aljis We say the Church hath been alwaies visible you deny it we have Scripture for it Mat 5. 14 15 The light of the world a City upon a hill cannot be hid 2 Cor 4 3 Isaiah 22 The Fathers unanimously affirm the same Origen Hom 30 in Math That the Church is full of light even from the East to the West Saint Chrisost Hom 4 in 6 of Isaiah That it is easier for the Sun to be extinguished then the Church to be darkned Saint Aug tract in Joan cals them blind who do not see so great a mountain and St Cypr de Vnitate Ecclaesioe We hold the perpetuall universality of the Church and that the Church of Rome is such a Church you deny it we have Scripture for it Psalm 2. 8. Rom. 1. 8. the Fathers affirm as much Saint Cypr ep 57. writing to Cornelius Pope of Rome saith whilst with you there is one mind and one voice the whole Church is confessed to be the Romane Church Saint Aug. de unitate eccles chap. 4. saith who so communicates not with the whole corps of Christendome certain it is that they are not in the holy Catholike Church Saint Hier in apol ad Ruffin saith that it is all one to say the Roman faith and the Catholick We hold the unity of the Church to be necessary in all points of faith you deny it the severall articles of your Protestant Churches deny it we have Scripture for it Eph. 4. 5. One Lord one faith one Baptisme Acts 4. 35. 1 Cor. 1. 10. The Fathers are of that opinion Saint Aug. cont ep Par li. 3. chap. 5. Saint Cyp. li. de unitate ecclesiae nu 3. Saint Hyl. lib. ad constantium Augustum We hold that every Minister of the Church especially the supreme Minister or head thereof should be in a capacity of fungifying his office in preaching the Gospel administring the Sacraments baptizing marrying and not otherwise this we have Scripture for Heb. No man taketh this honour unto himself but he that is called of God as Aaron was this you deny not only so but you so deny it as that your Church hath maintained and practised it along time for a woman to be head or supreme moderatrix in the Church when you know that according to the word of God in this respect a woman is not only forbid to be the head of the man but to have a tongue in her head 1 Tim. 2. 11 12. 1 Cor. 14. 34. yet so hath this been denied by you that many have been hang'd drawn and quartered for not acknowledging it the Fathers are of our opinion herein Saint Damascen ser 1 Theod hist Ecclesi li 4 chap 28 Saint Ignat Epist ad Philodolph Saint Chyrsost hom 5. de verbis Isaiae We say that Christ gave commission to his Disciples to forgive sins you deny it and say that God only can forgive sinnes we have Scripture for it John 20. 23. Whosesoever sins ye remit they are remitted and whosesoever sinnes ye tetain they are retained and John 20. 21 As my Father hath sent me even so send I you and how was that viz. with so great power as to forgive sinnes Mat 9. 3. 8. where note that Saint Matthew doth not set down how that the people glorified God the Father who had given so great power unto God the Son but that he had given so great power unto men loco citato The Fathers are of our opinion S. Aug tract 49 in Joan Saint Chris de Sacerdotio li. 3. Saint Ambros li 3. de penitentia Saint Cyrill li 12 ca 50 saith It is not absurd to say that they should remit sinnes who have in them the Holy Ghost and Saint Basil li 5 cont Eunom proved the holy Ghost to be God so confuted his heresie because the holy Ghost forgave sins by the Apostles and Saint Irenaeus li 5. cap 13 so Saint Greg Hom 6 Evang We hold that we ought to confesse our sinnes unto our ghostly Father this ye deny saying that ye ought not to confesse your sinnes but unto God alone this we prove out of Scripture Mat 3 5 6. Then went out Jerusalem and all Judea and were baptized of him in Jordan confessing their sinnes this confession was no generall confession but in particular as appears Acts 19 18 19. And many that believed came and confessed and shewed their deeds The Fathers affirm the same Saint Irenaeus li 1. ca â— Tertull li de Paenitentia where he reprehendeth some who for humane shame fastness neglected to go to confession S Ambr sat to hear confession Amb Expaulsino S Clem Ep de fratr Dom Origen li. 3. Chrys li 3. de sacerd Saint Ambr urat in muliere peccatrice saith confesse freely to the Priest the hidden sins of thy soul We hold that men may doe works of supererogation this you deny This wee prove by Scripture Mat. 19. 12. viz. There be Eunuches which have made themselves Funuches for the Kingdome of heaven he that is able to receive it let him receive it this is more then a Commandment as Saint Aug. observes upon the place ser li. de temp for of precepts it is not said keep them who is able but keep them absolutely The Fathers are of this opinion Saint Amb. li. de viduis Orig in c. 15. ad Rom. Euseb 1. demonstrat chap. 8. Saint Chrys hom 8. de act paenit Saint Greg nicen 15. Moral chap. 5. We say we have free will you deny it we prove we have out of Scripture viz. 1 Cor. 17. He that standeth stedfast in his heart having no necessity but hath power over his own will and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin doth well Deut. 30. 11. I have set before you life and death blessing and cursing chuse life that thou and thy seed may live and Christ himself said O Jerusalem Jerusalem how often would I have gathered thy children together as a Hen gathers her Chicken yee would not where Christ would and they would not there might have been a willingnesse as well as a willing or else Christ had wept in vain and to thinke that he did so were to make him an imposture The antient Fathers are of our opinion Euseb Caesar de praep li. 1. c. 7. Saint Hilde Trin Saint Aug li. 1. ad Simp q. 4. Saint Ambr in Luc chap 12. Saint Chrys hom 19. in Gen Irenaeus li 4. ca. 72 Saint Cyril li. 4. in Joan in cap 7. c. We hold it possible to keep the Commandments you say it is impossible we have Scripture for it Luk 1 6 And they were both righteous before God walking in all the