Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n
Text snippets containing the quad
|
ID |
Title |
Author |
Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) |
STC |
Words |
Pages |
|
A41388
|
Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good.
|
Good, Thomas, 1609-1678.
|
1674
(1674)
|
Wing G1029; ESTC R23950
|
83,883
|
174
|
infirmities is the same Strong Handsome Healthy Man that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old Dub. Thô I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome for her antiquity yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church many wrinkles in her face which were not from the beginning but not withstanding those infirmities 't is the same true Church as 't was at the first plantation as the old decrepite man is the same man that ever he was for substance Firm. I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sence the same it first was in respect of divers Articles it holds but in respect of those gross errours it now maintaines 't is no more like what it was then the old decrepite diseased man is like what he was in his younger dayes Dub. Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases as I in part do apprehend I pray you proceed to my other motive Firm. The Church of Rome is not so universal as her disciples boast of neither in respect of place or time 1. 'T is the observation of a learned man that if the world were divided into 30 parts 19 of them are heathens 6 Mahometans and 5 Christians of which the Papists are not the one halfe as Mr. Breirwood in his Enquires does demonstrate 2. As to the universality of time the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenents from the beginning of Christianity through the several ages or Centuryes that it has continued a Church from the first preaching of the Gospell I deny not but that 't is the same for purity of Doctrine as once it was is most false for the antient Church of Rome never taught worshiping of images praying to Saints that monstrous transubstantiation halfe Communion Praier in an unknowne tongue and many more Groundless fopperies against Scripture the general consent of fathers common sence and reason Dub. All this I am inclined to believe but how could these errours creepe into a Church which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches it received from the Church that was in the next age before it that from the Church next before it and so quite down to the Apostles times as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Vnckle and the Nephew hath most learnedly demonstraâ—ed Firm. Truly very learnedly even as Zeno proved there was no locall motion you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration were not the Scribes and Pharises great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers And yet we know how grosly they had corrupted the law of Moses as is evident by our Saviours confutation of them Mat. 5. and in severall other places Dr. Crakanâ—thorp and other Learned prâ—â—â—stants do evidently shew the beginning the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome the manner of their spring and Growth but Suppose we cannot punctually tâ—ll the beginning and progress of such and such an errour shall we therefore believe it to be no errour you walk sometimes in the fields 't is evident to your eyes that the Grasse aâ—d graine do grow though you do not see them move at all sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition will you not believe him to be so because you cannot tell the time when or the manner how his disease came upon him Dub I cannot be so unreasonable and by what you have said my third reason falls to the Ground for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive but is extreamly opposite to it in the points before named besides many others I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity for they seem to be firmly united under one infallible head the Pope Firm. Truely Sir they do but seem so for they are miserably divided in the great fundamentall of their faith their infallibility and are not they very unjust to us to exact our beliefe of that which they themselves know not where to find for some of them tell us 't is fixed to the Popes chair some say 't is to be found in a Generall Councell otâ—â—rs believe it to be in neither but in both united together others would perswade us that 't is in the whole body of the Church so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations who in waggery are sent from shop to shop for a penyworth of Ell-broad Packthred or a pound of stock-fish Tallow or a Lefthanded Shuttle after these poore novices have been sent from one end of the Citty to the other they returne home without such ridiculous Commodities and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision There 's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous workes wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholicks among themselves insomuch that this great Cardinals workes were not to be bought in Rome as Sir Edw Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum because he had so imprudently discovered the nakednesse of his mother in point of unity To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists Ochamists c 't is pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans Franciscans Iesuites Molinists Iansenists Regulars and seculars agree together Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the Iansenians and so that which was none before very luckily became an article of Faith such is the Popes omnipotent Power that he can create Articles of Faith out of that which was a pure noâ—-entity a very nothing in the primitive times yet I heare that the Iansenists are so saucy as to continue very Iansenists still notwithstanding his holinesses inâ—allible determination Dub. I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome as they bragg of I desire to heare what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine Firm the Sanctity of their Doctrine referrs to that of Faith and Manners for that of Faith which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed or any other Doctrinall poynt contained in holy Scripture expressly or by good consequence deduced from thence by the generall consent of Fathers we allow of but as for popish additions of new atticles by Pope Pius the 4. and the councell of Trâ—nt that are against Scripture and can never be justified by the generall consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church we reject as false and consequently not Holy this I suppose you will demâ—nsâ—rate when you please to give me the reasons which made you forsake the present Church of Rome As to their Saâ—ctity of manners their
out Firm. True 't is such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture by the practise of the â—niversal Church attested by the general consent of Fathers and Councels as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel Dr. Taylor 's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy with many others First The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples had his Twelve Apostles which were superior to them as is evident by the chusing of Matthias into the place of Iudas from the example of Timothy and Titus the one a â—ishop of Creet the other of Ephesus by the general consent of Antiquity in those and other Churches In that once famous Church of Rome we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus What should I mention the Angels of the Seaven Asiatick Churches which by the general consent of the Fâ—thers were the Bishops of those Churches nay St. Hierome himself no good friend to this Order does acknowledg That when Christians began to he divided one being of Paul an other of Cephas to prevent such Schisms there past an vniversal Decree throughout the world Thâ—t Bishops should be setled in every Citty who should govern with the Common Councel of the Bresbyters and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest for taking away the seeds of Schism Dub. I am very well perswaded by what you have said that the Primitive goverment of the Church was by Bishops with the assistance of the Presbyterie who had authority over the Presbyters and were their superiors But I pray you satisfie me in this one thing Why did St. Paul so shâ—rply reprove the Corinthians for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop Firm. This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection but if we seriously consider the words upon which 't is grounded it has no weight at all The Text that is cited to prove it is 1. Corinth 5.2 Ye are puffed up and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation for so soul a sin not for the neglect of Excommunication He that had committed that great sin was to be taken away or cut off from the â—hurch but they themselves could not exclude him but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul verse 3 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally â—eated there being then no Bishop of Corinth for evident it is that in those Churches where there were no Bishops the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands until Bishops were setled among them as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Creet Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters as such had any Jurisdiction belonging to the publick goverment of the Church but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles and Bishops and noâ— by virtue of their own Order Dub. I am very well satisfied both from Scripture and the general practise of the Church which is the best Comment on the Text That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution and I confess I am much confirm'd in this perswasion by Gods blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men such as Cranmer Ridley Iewel Carlton Abbots Morton Andrews Vsher who of English extraction Hall Laud and Sanderson Hooker Cracanthorp Iackson c. whose profound Learning and Piety has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome that ever she received â—rom any Protestant writers and their judicious works have been the strongest sence against Popery Heresie Rebellion and Schism that the Christian world can ever boast of Firm. I much rejoyce that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses We will now if you please proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned and many more your opposites in this your second exception as well as in the former Dub. 'T is probable I shall however that I may receive full satisfaction from you give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them As 1. They were not from the Beginning but as it were of yesterday 2. They seem to be very useless serving only to maintain the pride and grandure of many idle drones 3. Many poor Parochial Churches are rob'd of their Tiths and Glebs to maintain such lazy Ministers 4. Their Vicars Choral and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation have little sense or relish of Religion 5. Their Toning of Prayers their Chore service is like a Latine Masse not understood by the people 6. Their Organs and other Musical Instruments are Levitical utterly unlawful under the Gospel Firm. You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution but I shall presently make you understand the contrary First I shall shew you that Cathedrals Deans and Chapters though not under those names were from the beginning of Christianity It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles and the Records of the Church that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ those spiritual Fishermen cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts They usually Preached in the most Populous Citys where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches to which the Suburbican or those that dwelt in the adjacent Villages were subject and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishops Diocess which they governed as St. Hirome confesses by the common councel and assistance of Presbiters termed at Rome in after times Cardinals or chief Presbiters and in the time of Charles the great as the Magdeburgenses inform us were incorpated into a Colledge under the name of Dem and Chapter the Dean by the Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter Before the sounding of Universsitys these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets where young Students were train'd up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning Gerard gives us a tast of their first institution their corruption and how they might be restored to their primitive uses I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books and well Studyed men to consult with and leisure all which we Country Ministers are deprived of would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals and manifest to this invidious age that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very usefull to the Church and very Antient as I