CHAMP This authoritie is like the rest impertinent to your purpose and rather against you then for you For he that defendeth the authoritie of the churche and these thinges that are taught by her defendeth nothinge from without the bookes of God but he that defendeth the contrarie as you doe doth euidently impugne the gospell S. Hill willeth the Arrian Emperour to heare these thinges that are written of Christ as this he is one with his father and the like and then he should be farr from beleeuinge that which is no where written to witt that he is a creature and inferiour to his father Your cause is most miserable and despicable seeinge it is forced to begge testimonie of such extorted witnesses And nowe I leaue to the iudicious reader be he catholicke or protestant to iudge whether the catholicke positions of this first controuersie sett downe in the Manuall be not both more clearlie expressed and more firmelie and trulie prooued by scripture then the protestant position sett downe by Mr. Pilkinton which is the chiefe issue of our controuersie and dispute And further whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestant positions be not truly and iustly ascribed vnto them and more directlie pertayninge to the controuersie heere discussed then the others proposed by him MANVALL The second Controuersie of traditions Catholike position 1. The holy Apostles diliuered by worde of mouth moe thinges to be beleeued obserued by the churche then either they found written or wrote themselues And these thinges are vsuallie called traditions PILK You haue gotten a wolfe by the eare when you fasten on traditions if you lett them goe they carrie with them a great parte of your faith if you holde them fast you shewe you cannot prooue your faith from scriptures For you freelie and plainlie tell vs what your churche meaneth by traditions not interpretation of that which is written but addition and suppliment of that which is not For moe thinges say you are to be beleeued and obserued then either the Apostles wrote or founde written and these are traditions Let the reader marke this for the question here betwixt vs is not of interpretation of scriptures nor of rites and ceremonies that haue correspondence with them which here he carrieth vnder the name of thinges to be obserued but of doctrines and matters of faith which are thinges to be beleeued all which saith he were neuer written in the old testament nor yet in the newe CHAMP You putt me in minde of the fable of the fox that hauinge lost his owne tayle would needes perswade his fellowes to cutt of theires So you beinge out of loue with traditions woulde perswade vs to reiect them also But we are not so soone moued we professe to beleeue diuerse things for traditions sake and that by warrant of scripture whereunto if you did geue so much creditt as you would be thought to doe you woulde also beleeue the same And seing you yeeld alreadie the one halfe of the controuersie to witt traditions of thinges to be obserued for of these thinges you say there is no question betweene vs I will not dispaire to euict the other part of thinges also to be beleeued from you PILK Nowe this is a manifest vntruth For there is not anie article of faith which the Apostles founde not in the scriptures of the prophetts nor which either the euangelists or themselues did not consigne vnto vs in theire writings which thinge any man may finde to be true that will take paines to consider the articles of the Apostolike creede one by one which either haue proofe out of the ould testament or else the Apostles did not double all theire doctrines out of the scriptures Contrary to S. Paules practise acts 26. 22. CHAMP Howe manifest an vntruth it is that the Apostles taught more then either they found written or wrot themselues we shall see in the processe of this controuersie In the meane while I tell you that you affirme boldlie but prooue nothinge And why doe you referr vs to the Apostles creede for proofe of your vniuersall affirmation Is nothinge to be beleeued but that which is therein contayned what find you I pray you in the creede touchinge either the number or the nature of the Sacraments of theire efficacie or necessitie of originall sinne of the fall of the Angells with manie moe articles beleeued by all christians And yett you confirme your proofe farr more absurdlie by supposinge that the Apostles doubled that is your worde where you learned it I knowe not al theire doctrine out of scripture which is the thinge in question and therefore most absurdlie brought for proofe of the same Againe what necessitie had the Apostles to double theire doctrine as you say out of the scriptures Hadd they not authoritie to preach anie thinge but what they founde alreadie in the scriptures What Christian euer dreamed of such doctrine as you haue deliuered here But this was S. Paules practise you say But you are either ignorantlie or wilfullie mistakē and that most grosselie For thoughe S. Paule and the rest of the Apostles preached nothinge contrarie to the doctrine of the old testament but contrariwise shewed howe the auncient prophecies were fulfilled by our Sauiour Christ which S. Paules auditours at Boerea findinge by conferinge his doctrine with the prophets were much confirmed in theire faith yett is it noe where sayd that either he or the rest preached nothinge but that they founde written Neither did this paradoxe euer enter into anie mans heade but Mr. Pilkintons PILK Reade saith Ireneus diligentlie the Gospell which the Apostles haue geuen vs and read also diligentlie the prophetts and you shall finde all the actions and passions of our lorde yea all his doctrine for to be preached your proofes haue as much truth as the Carthaginians faith CHAMP S. Ireneus saith no more but that there is a great and manifest conformitie or agreement betweene the Prophetts and Apostles preachinge and doctrine which as it is most true so is it as much to your purpose as Paules steeple is to Charinge Crosse And whether my proofes or yours haue more affinitie with the Carthaginian faith lett the indifferent reader iudge MANVALL Proofe of the catholike position 1. Hauinge moe thinges to write vnto you I woulde not by paper and Inke For I hope I shall be with you and speake mouth to mouth PILK These well conclude that in this shorte Epistle S. Iohn did not write all the poyntes of faith but that others of the Apostles did not write them he saith not a word What loose reasoninge is this S. Iohn did not write all in these Epistles therefore the rest did not For whatsoeuer is necessarie vnto saluation and of faith though there it be not to be found yet in the writings of the other Apostles it is to be read CHAMP Seeinge I haue by your confession prooued out of the scripture that this Apostle
refuse it if they say anie thinge for you But neither of the fathers cited by you saith that the Apostles wrote all they preached which is our issue heere And as fo◠the former to witt S. Ireneus you haue his plaine meaninge layd downe vnto you before in the beginninge of our dispute to witt in the answere to your second Antithesis which you frame out of these selfe same wordes of S. Ireneus And as for S. Aug. he saith not that Christ commanded to bee written whatsoeuer he woulde haue vs to beleeue of him or his workes but onlie whatsoeuer he woulde haue vs to reade Which is most true For he could not will that we shoulde read anie thinge but that which was written But lett vs yeelde yett further vnto you and suppose these fathers to say as much for your purpose as you would haue which you see is farr otherwise yett woulde I aske you where they had that doctrine not from the scripture for no such thinge appeareth therein If therefore you will admitte of theire doctrine though not taken out of the scripture why doe you professe that nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is written and contayned in the scripture And thus you see your selfe so inuolued with your doctrine that you can finde noe way to escape some manifest absurditie Manuall Proofe 4. They the Apostles taught baptisme giuen to infants to be good and lawfull or else the Anabaptists are not heretikes for rebaptisinge them PILK The Baptisme of infants may by good and necessarie consequence be deriued from the scriptures otherwise your friend Bellarmine hath brought chaffie arguments against the Anabaptists The first is from the figure of the olde testament children were circumcised therefore they ought to be baptised this is so stronge saith he that it cannot be eluded The second is taken out of the thirde of Iohn Except a man be borne againe of water and the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen Whereunto may be added Christs commaundment Matt. 19. 14. Suffer little children to come vnto me for of such is the kingdome of heauen And in howe manie places doth S. Aug. prooue from the holy scriptures the necessitie of Baptisme against the Pelagians who imagininge children to be without original sinne thought it vnnecessarie wheras he sheweth out of Iohn that without it originall sinne is not remitted and therefore if it be needfull certainlie it is lawfull CHAMP The arguments vsed by Bellarmine are not chaffie but substantially good because they are taken from the scripture interpreted by the authoritie of the churche and the canonicall practise thereof receiued from the Apostles which is sufficient to prooue the Anabaptists to be heretike denyinge the Baptisme of infants to be lawfull And seeing you confesse the testimonie of the 3. of S. Iohn to be so effectuall to prooue the lawfulnes of the Baptisme of infants you must likwise confesse Caluin and all his followers to be heretikes For he denyeth the necessity of Baptisme to saluation which is much more clearlie prooued out of that place then is the Baptisme of infants And so whilst you woulde auoyde one euill you fall into a worse The same inconuenience followeth against you vppon the argument of S. August For if he prooue rightlie against the Pelagians that Baptisme is necessarie he concludeth directlie against your Master Caluin Yea against the doctrine deliuered in the first dayes conference of Hampton Courte Read it and see whether I say not true Manuall Proofe 6. They the Apostles taught the sunday to be solemnised and the Iewes Sabboth to be lefte without all solemnitie Thoughe moste strictly commaunded by God to be solemnised as an euerlastinge Couenant PILK The obseruation of the sunday and alteration from the Iewishe Sabboth we finde written in the scriptures For Iohn tearmeth it the Lordes day not onlie for that it was consecrated to his publike seruice but for that he was the instituter and ordayner thereof as S. Aug speaketh It was prefigured in the eight day wherein the Iewes vsed circumcision as both the same father and Chrisost teach and if prefigured then prescribed In this day did the Apostles come together acts 20. 7. and accordinglie they taught the churche to obserue it not by voyce onlie but by writinge 1. cor 16. 2. Euerie first day of the weeke lett euerie one of you put a side by himselfe and though it were commaunded by God to be obserued as an euerlastinge couenant yett who is so meanlie skilled in the Hebrue that knoweth not Gnolam sometymes to signifie eternitie sometimes a definit tyme as to the Iubilee Exad 21 6 then his master will bringe him vnto the iudges and sett him to the dore or the poste and his maister shall bore his eare throughe with an awle and he shall serue him for euer and as the passeouer was tearmed Exo 12. 14. an euerlastinge ordinance which yett was but to continue till the fulnes of tyme. So the Sabboth is tearmed an euerlasting couenant which yett for the day was onlie vnder the state of the olde testament CHAMP Here you exceede your selfe in impertinencie and wilfull obstinacie If I should haue brought out of the scriptures for traditions such proofes as you doe to ouerthrowe them you would make sporte therat and worthelie saying they were not onlie loose arguinge but verie seelie Sophistrie S. Iohn tearmeth one day the Lordes day ergo say you the scripture testifieth the abrogation of the Iewes Sabboth and establishment of the sunday and that fully for of full proofe and testimonie wee here dispute Againe the Apostle willed the Corrinthians euerie first day of the weeke to lay a side by themselues c. Ergo say you the Apostle did not onlie teach by voice but by writinge also the obseruation of the christians sunday insteede of the Iewishe Sabboth These are your best and strongest arguments in this matter which if you trulie thinke to be fully sufficient of themselues to prooue that you desire with what face or conscience can you reiect the proofes of expresse scripture and cleare instances brought for the catholike position as not sufficient to prooue the same Manuall Proofe 6. They deliuered and taught the creede by worde of mouthe and not in writinge which from theire tyme till nowe hath cōtinued in the churche by tradition onlie PILK The creede we confesse the Apostles taught and finde euerie parcell and portion thereof in theire writings which if you denie we can quickelie make good S. Aug. telleth vs so much These wordes which you haue hearde he speaketh of the Simboll are scattered in the holy scriptures from them collected and reduced into one to helpe the memorie of dull men But here you delude your reader againe with a triflinge Homonomie of this worde creede For if thereby you meane wordes and sillables then it is true that the Apostles vse not in theire writings some wordes expressed in the creede neither is
it necessarie to beleeue that they wrote the wordes thereof and then it is not to the purpose to proue your positioÌ„ which is of thinges to be beleeued and not of wordes But if by the creede you vnderstande the matter of it and thinges to be beleeued then it is vntrue that the Apostles writte it not and all thinges contayned therein which thinges haue continued in our churche as the obiect of our faith not for tradition onlie as you ignorantly say but because they are recorded in the holy scripture CHAMP Shewe me then in theire writings I meane the Apostles the discention of our Sauiour into hell and the catholicke churche which Luther loued so little that he turned it the christian churche Thoughe we beleeue not onlie the parcells of the creede but the whole creede together And that the Apostles made it which is no where expressed in scripture And if I say ignorantlie that the creede as it is composed by the Apostles and therefore receiued and beleeued of all christians in al ages hath continued in the church vntill this day by tradition only shewe it me written in the scriptures and I will confesse myne ignorance and correct my wordes But seeinge you cannot performe that I tell you that you impudentlie affirme that it hath other continuance then by tradition opposinge tradition to the canonicall scripture onlie Manuall Proofe 7. They taught Baptisme administred by heretikes to be good and therefore S. Aug. speakinge thereof saith Manie thinges which are not found in the Apostles writinges nor in the latter councells yet because they are obserued by the whole churche are beleeued to be deliuered and recommended by none but by theÌ„ Againe he saith There are manie thinges which the whole church doth hold and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written PILK That Baptisme ministred by heretikes was preached by the Apostles but not written hath as much truth as the rest For whereas Cyprian hath taught that Baptisme of heretikes was not good and therefore to be reiterated S. Aug. crosseth him and prooueth the contrarie out of the ghospell and out of the wordes of the Apostle Ephe. 4. And this is so frequent with that father that it maketh me thinke you haue not read him of that argument but gleaned out of others that might serue your turne So pâ—lpably are you deceiued to thinke that S. August conceiued this to be an vnwritten tradition without ground of scripture for thus he writeth That I may not seeme to prooue it by humane arguments I will bringe foorth certayne documents out of the scripture And whereas Cyprian had taught that for proofe of this we must haue recourse vnto the fountayne of Apostolicall tradition that is the scriptures S. Aug approoueth it and saith that the Apostles deliuered that there is one God one Christe one baptisme and therefore baptisme of heretikes is firme and not to be repeated When then he saith of this as of other thinges that they are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in latter councells c. And there be manie thinges which the whole churche doth holde and therfore are well beleeued to be commended by the Apostles albeyt they be not found written Which wordes are in his 2. booke contra Donatistas cap. 7. and not lib. 5. cap. 27. as you cited them His meaninge is they are not written in so manie wordes but the groundes of them are layd in the scriptures and thence necessarilie they may be concluded This is playne out of Aug. for hauinge vttered these wordes vrged by you when he draweth to an ende of this disputation he thus concludeth It might suffice that our reasons beinge so often repeated and diuerselie debated and handled in disputinge and the documents of holy scripture beinge added and so manie testimonies of Cyprian concurringe By this tyme I thinke the weaker sorte of men vnderstande that the baptisme of Christe cannot be violated by the peruersnes of the partie that geueth or receiueth it Loe howe be bringeth documents out of scripture to prooue that the peruersnes of heretikes peruerteth not the baptisme of Christe and therfore baptisme ministred by hereticks is good CHAMP Is it be written by the Apostles that the Baptisme of heretikes is sufficient and not to be reiterated why doe not you shewe the place and confound your aduersarie But you had rather impudeÌ„tlie affirme an vntruth theÌ„ ingeniously acknowledg a cleare veritie As thoughe if it hadd been so clearly fully taught in holy scripture as you are bound to shewe it S. Cyprian who had a much iudgmeÌ„t to discerne it as you att least and noe lesse good will to acknowledge it nor yett lesse industrie and diligence to seeke it could not he haue esped it And howsoeuer here you wilfullie wrangle out of S. Aug as though he acknowledged not the Baptisme of heretikes by tradition yett two pages after you in expresse wordes confesse that he saith neither baptisme of infants nor by heretikes are written in scripture And though you interpret him both here and there to meane that they are not founde written in so manie wordes but that the groundes notwithstandinge from whence they may be necessarilie concluded are layd in the scriptures yett is this your glosse meerelie voluntarie clearlie against S. August meaninge and common sence Or iâ— not why doe not you frame some argument which by necessary consequence may conclude out of the groundes layd in scripture abstractinge from the authoritie of the churche and tradition either of these two articles But it is more easie for you to affirme twentie positions then to prooue one Manuall catholike position 2. The Catholike churche doth and ought to beleeue those thinges which the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth without writinge in the same degree of faith with those that are written PILK For answere vnto this lett the iudicious reader obserue that it is the vsuall doctrine of Papists to teach that all points of Christian beliefe which are necessarie for all men were publikelie preached by the Apostles to all men and recorded in the register of holy scripture But besides these there were diuers thinges committed to prelats and priests that were more perfect men which they taught them a parte accordinge to that which S. Paule saith we speake wisdome amonge them that are perfect And these be theire traditions which they would haue equallie credited with the scriptures Nowe this was the verie doctrine of the auncient heretikes Valentinians Cerintheans Marcionists c. For abusinge the scripture and aduancinge traditioÌ„s grounded on the same foundation as the fathers tell vs. And these be thinges which the protestants denie to be equall with the scriptures for they graunt that the Apostles in the beginninge of theire embassage write not the whole doctrine which they preached but deliuered parte by worde of mouth and parte by writinge howbeit they consigned the Canon of the scripture and
them by whom the Ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP If you had taken but ordinarie heede what you wrote you woulde not haue sayde that my position hath anie opposition with S. Ireneus who sayth not that the Apostles wrote all they preached as he should haue don to make your antithesis good but onlie that they wrote the same gospell which they preached and not a different or contrarie doctrine to their preachinge as some prophane heretickes of whom he maketh there mentioÌ„ impudentlie taught which sence of this Father your selfe acknowledge pag. 5. But if you will needes make this consequence they wrote that which they preached ergo they wrote all that they preached as you must argue if you will make anie antithesis betwixt my position and S. Ireneus his doctrine I will say that either you haue forgotten your logicke or that you neuer had anie For to make or inferre an vniuersall proposition of an indefinite in nâ—n necessarijs is most absurde as you shall see by these examples Homo est albus vel caluus ergo omnis homo est a â—us vel caluus or the kinge writeth that he speaketh and thinketh therefore he writeth all he speaketh or thinketh Moreouer of S. Ireneus his iudgment concerninge traditions you might haue informed your selfe by the chapter immediatelie followinge that which you cite where he hath these wordes When we appeall to that tradition which descendinge from the Apostles is by the succession of priestes in the Churche preserued they to wit heretikes reiect Traditions PILK The scriptures are darke and difficult to be vnderstoode and all articles of faith are not clearelie layde downe in them All thinges are cleare in the holy scriptures to them that come to them with a godlie minde CHAMP The position of the Manuall which you ayme at as this All places of holy scripture containinge articles of faith the obstinate misbeleefe whereof is damnable are not easie to be vnderstoode but require some rule to be interpreted by Nowe if you will maintaine this position to be opposite to S. Epiphanius you must graunte that your doctrine is opposite to him which I euidentlie shewe in this manner In the roll of positions which you say are forgéd by me against you and are sett downe by you in the next page of your booke This in the second All places of holie scripture conteininge articles of faith are easie to be vnderstoode which proposition if you will reiect as none of yours as you doe in the place mentioned then must necessarilie the contradictorie proposition which is the same with mine here carped at by you and wich you say is opposite to S. Epiphanius be yours and then doe you contradict S. Epiphanius if you will say that I doe Or if you will confesse the truth and acknowledge this latter proposition to be yours as doubtles it is why doe you then charge me with forgeinge it against you Accorde your owne sayinges and then shall I knowe what to answere vnto In the meane while you are vnfortunate to stumble so grosselie if contradictinge your selfe in so shorte a space may be termed onlie stumblinge in the verie entrance of your dispute My position shall be shewed agreeable both with holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers in due place And as for your authoritie alleaged out of S. Epiphanius if it be in him as I knowe noâ— whether it be or noe for it is cited by you so at large that I cannot finde it it may haue this true sence and meaninge That all thinges are cleare in scriptures to such as come to them with this minde to vnderstande them as the catholicke Churche and the true pastors thereof interpret them Which sayinge hath noe contrarietie at all with my position For I doe not say that the scriptures are harde to be vnderstoode by the churche or that they neede another rule to be interpreted by then the Churches vnderstandinge and interpretation PILK The sence of the holy scriptures geuen by the churche is vnfalliblie true as are also the definitions and declarations of faith deliuered by the same and euerie one is bounde vppon his damnation not to reiect the iudgment therof Who knoweth not that the holie scriptures as well of the old as newe testament is contayned in certaine boundes and so is to be preferred before all the latter writinges of Bishoppes that noe man ought to doubte att all or call in question whether it be true or right whatsoeuer is written therein when as the writinges of Bishopes that haue been or are written after the canon confirmed may lawfullie be reprehended both by the wiser speache of anie that is more skilfull in that matter and by grauer authoritie of other Bishopps and wisdome of the learned and also by councells if they haue in anie point wandred from the truth and euen nationall and prouincial councells doe giue place to those that are collected out of the whole vniuersall Christian worlde and generall counsells themselues are often amended the former by the latter as often as by tryal experience the thinge was opened that before was shutt or knowne that was hidd without anie swellinge of sacrilegious pride or stiffe necke of arrogancie or contention of deadlie enuie with holy humilitie with Catholicke peace with Christian charitie CHAMP You doe greatlie abuse your readers patience farceinge your booke with such impertinencies And you doe no lesse wronge the holy Father S. August bringinge his wordes as coÌ„tradictinge the churches infallibilitie in matters of faith and interpretation of the scriptures which he so often and so euidently restifieth But to conuince you of wilfulnes in abusinge S. Aug. it shall suffice to sett here before you that onlie Testimonie of the same holy Father which is expressed in the Manuall in proofe of this position which you would haue him to contradict His wordes there sett downe are these Although noe example is brought out of holie scripture of this thinge that the Baptisme of heretickes is sufficient yett doe we followe the truth of the same scripture in this point whilst we doe that which pleaseth the whole Churche which the authoritie of scriptures doth commend And because the holie scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued by the obscuritie of these questions letâ— him consulte therevpon with the churche which without all doubte the scriptures doe shewe Iudge nowe with your selfe whether you or I speake more conformablie to S. Aug. That which you alleage out of him of the doctrine of particular Bishopps or councells compared with the doctrine of holy scripture is altogether impertinent to your purpose That which he saith of vniuersall councells that the former may be ameÌ„ded by the latter is vnderstoode of matters pertayninge to manners or practise which often are changed accordinge as circumstances
poore stuffe that were your cloake doubled with no better lyninge you would feele the winter could noe lesse then if your cloake were simple but lett vs see peraduenture you haue better stuffe behynde PILK That way which Christ and his Apostles tooke to conuince heretikes is a full and direct way but they conuinced them by scripture only The Saduces that were heretikes amongst the Iewes denyinge the resurrection werethus by Christ putt to silence so were the false Apostles that vrged Circumsion by the councell at Hierusalem and thus Apollo confuted the Iewes sheweinge by the scriptures that Iesus was Christe CHAMP These examples of Christe and the Apostles doe clearlie conuince your affirmatiue wherein is our issue to be false For otherwise all these that hearde theÌ„ should haue been conuerted from theire errours which they were not And assuredlie if you take those places of scripture vsed by our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles to be of themselues conuincinge abstractinge from the authoritie of those that vsed theÌ„ you will conuince your selfe to be a madde man and not a doctor of diuinitie The way therfore that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles then vsed and which all the Doctors of gods churche haue euer since exercised to conuince heretikes by scripture is doubtles most conuenient and good which is not in controuersie betweene you and me but onlie whether it be such as by noe false interpretation it may be auoyded deluded or frustrated of the effect which these verie examples brought by you and the experience of all times doe demoÌ„strate to be true against you And this might fullie suffice for that which you add but least you may complaine of your wordes concealed I will sett them downe PILK Lastlie the fathers thus taught that heretickes might be conuinced solelie by the scriptures Take from the heretikes their heathenishe learninge that by scriptures onlie they must prooue theire opinions they cannot stande saith Tertullian See howe nere vnto danger they be that refuse to exercise themselues in scripture for of them onlie the iudgment of this triall must be knowne CHAMP Howe impertinent alwayes you are you shoulde prooue that heretikes may be conuinced by scriptures onlie and you bringe Tertullian to prooue that heretikes cannot prooue theire errouis out of scriptures speakinge of one particular heresie against the resurrectio which article of the resurrectioÌ„ being not to be prooued by naturall discourse but out of scripture onlie therefore those heretickes that neglect to reade them were in daunger to continue in theire errour But if you make anie esteeme of Tertullian his iudgment in this matter see his wordes cited a litle before and iudge your selfe whether he fauour your affirmatiue or my negatiue more PILK Athanasins writinge to Serapion against thâ—se heretikes that taught the holy ghost to be a creature chargeth him to learne onlie these thinges that are in the scriptures For the documents contayned therein aboute this pointe are of theÌ„selues sufficient and doe satisfie S. Aug Chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche onlie by the canonicall scriptures and remouinge all other thinges to demonstrate theire churche if they were able not in the wordes and rumors of Affricanes not in the councelles of the Bishops not in the letters of anie disputers not in signes and lyinge miracles because we are forewarned fore-armed against these thinges by the worde of God but in the prescripte of the lawe the predictions of the prophetts in the songes of the psalmes in the voyce of the Shephearde himselfe in the Sermons and labours of the Euangelistes that is in all the canonicall authorities of the holy booke Innocent i. bishoppe of Rome saith that by the sole testimonie of holy scriptures the heresie of Pelagius might be refuted The testimonie of the fathers are infinite in this kinde which to auoyde prolixitie I passe ouer and conclude with that charge of Constantine to the fathers of the Nicene councell where Arrianisine receiued its deathes wounde to satisfie the sheepishe obiection of seelie Legat the bookes of the Euangelists and the Apostles together with oracles of the auncient prophets doe plainlie teach vs what we are to thinke of diuine thinges or as Bellarmine readeth it of the nature of God Therefore layinge a side all contention let vs out of the diuine inspired scriptures take the resolution of these thinges that are in question CHAMP Manie wordes nothinge to the purpose Which of all these testimonies be they trulie related by you which I list not examine because they are nothinge to the purpose or of those infinite others which you more prudentlie omitte then you haue related these say that the heretikes may be so conuinced by onlie scripture that they cannot delude them by anie false interpretation which is our issue as you knowe The charge of Constantine as you ridiculouslie terme it doth sufficientlie euict my cause against you so wiselie you pleade for your selfe and so solidelie you satisfie the obiection of seelie Legat which you esteeminge sheepishe shewe your selfe to be more then a sheepe in not soluinge it for which of all the testimonies out of the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles or the oracles of the auncient prophets did so conuince the Arriaus that they had not some answere for it not one surelie Therefore all these wordes of yours containe nothinge but an argument of your wilfull obstinacie against an euident truth And therefore to conclude my defence in this issue I will aske you whether you are conuinced of the real persence by these wordes hoc est corpus meum or of the power to remitt sinnes by these quorum remiseritis â—eâ—cata remittuntur eâ—s or of the infallibilitie of the churche by these quae est coâ—umna firmamentum veritatis to omitte the rest if you say you are not conuinced as by your profession I coniecture you will say then I will further aske you what more cleare testimonies of scripture you canne bringe for anie one article of our faith and because I knowe you cannot bringe anie more direct or pregnant I therefore chalenge coniure you euen by the iudgment of your patron of Canterbury whose arbitrement I doe not refuse in this cause either to confesse your selfe conuinced in these points of Catholicke doctrine or to confesse that heretickes cannot be conuinced by onlie scriptures and so shall I gaine mine issue against you Which beinge euicted the note of the Manual remaineth entire and vntouched notwithstandinge all your tedious and prolixe wranglinge against it MANVALL SECTIO 3. Secondlie that thoughe the protestants may alleage texts of holy scripture for the proofe of some poinctes of theire doctrine yett that alone is not sufficient to make it true both because the same poinctes are prooued false by other places of scripture and also for that all heretickes haue euer brought scripture for theire heresie and none more apparant or frequent then the damned and
expressed in the holy scripture Or it is sufficient beinge lefte in the hands of the church to expound and interprete it but it is not sufficient for euerie one to picke his faith and beleefe out of And consequentlie another rule to witt the churches authoritie in vnderstandinge and interpretinge the scriptures is necessarie as the same father teacheth in these expresse wordes Some man may peraduenture aske for asmuch as the Canon of the scriptures is persect and in all pointes verie sufficient in it selfe what neede is there to ioyne thereunto the authoritie of the Ecclesiasticall vnderstandinge for this cause surelie for that all take not the holy scriptures in the same sence because of the deepnes thereof but the sayinges thereof some interprete one way and some another so that there may almoste as manie sences be picked out of it as there be men For Nouatian doth expounde it one way and Sabellius another way otherwise Arrius Eunomius Macedonius otherwayes Photinus Apollinaris Priscillianus otherwayes Iouinian Pelagius Celestus lastlie otherwayes Victorius Thus farr he who as you see expresselie admitteth as necessarie the rule of Ecclesiasticall authoritie besides the scriptures which is that we contend aboute PILK This clearelie is S. Aug. doctrine and the rest of the fathers not your crooked inference that the authority of the churche is a more vniuersall and more auncient rule then the scriptures for where hath he anie word to this purpose I woulde not haue beleeued the gospel except the authoritie of the churche had moued me are too weake to inserr any such like conclusion thoughe we admitte them in your corrupt translation For it is plaine he speaketh not these wordes of the present tyme when he was a Bishoppe as you reade them but of the tyme past when he was a Manichy Beinge a Catholicke a Bishoppe when he writte that booke he had farr other motiues to beleeue the Gospell then the authority of the church which here he alone nameth Take one place for a thousande I take my conscience to witnes Honoratus and God that dwelleth in pure myndes that I thinke nothinge more wise chaste religious then all these scriptures which the catholicke churche retayneth vnder the name of the olde and new testament I knowe thou wounderest but I cannot dâ—ssemble I was otherwise persuaded Howsoeuer then beinge an hereticke he thought of the scriptures yett nowe become a catholicke he beleeued them for that prudence chastitie pietie which he founde in them CHAMP Nowe lett vs see howe you will quitte your selfe of the authority of S. Aug sett downe in the Manuall you say it is too weake to serue our turne because he spake not of the present tyme when he was Byshoppe and wrote that booke but when he was a Manichie A poore and silie shifte God wotte lett his owne wordes witnes what his meaning is Ego EuaÌ„gelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesi 〈…〉 s coÌ„moueret I woulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the churches authority did moue me He saith not noÌ„ credidissem nisi commoâ—isset I had not beleeued had not the authoritie moued me as you corruptlie translate or if I doe produce your coppie for myne hath crederem commoueret which if you will translate had beleeued and had moued you shall be putt to your Accidence againe But beit that he spake of himselfe as being a Manichie which is as true as that he was a Manichie when he wrote this this is so far from fauoringe your cause that it maketh it much worse For if the churches authoritie had force to moue an hereticke to beleeue the gospell what man not depriued of common sence will denie but it hath at least the like force with a catholike But you say that S. Aug beinge a catholike had other motiues to beleeue the scriptures then the authoritie of the churche beit so what will you inferre thereof for your purpose or against me nothinge att all yea the testimonie alleaged by you out of him doth sufficiently witnes that the authority of the church did still moue him to beleeue the scriptures seeing he restraineth himselfe to those scriptures which the catholike churche receiueth and retayneth PILK Againe if by the churche you meane the present church and by the present church her rulers and guides as your consorts vsuallie doe then is it most absurde to thinke that S. August and the rest of the Bishoppes of his tyme beleeued the gospell for the authoritie of the churche for that had been for theire owne authoritie and so they had beleeued the gospell for themselues CHAMP If you hadd but one dramme of good Logicke you could not but haue seene your argument to haue been most idle and not beseeminge a doctor of diuinitie For no nouice in logicke but knoweth that an argument taken from all the partes together or collectiue to euerie one in seuerall or particular concludeth nothinge affirmatiuelie Such an one is yours beinge this is substance S. Aug. and the rest of the bishoppes beleeue the Gospell for the authoritie of the present churche but S. Aug. and the rest of the Bishoppes are the present churche ergo they beleeue the Gospell for themselues Or if you doe not yett see your owne seelines in this argument compare it with this and peraduenture you will espie it Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers of the churche of Englande beleeue the 39. articles to be good and lawfull for the authoritie of the churche of Englande But Richarde Pilkinton and the rest of the ministers are the churche of Englande ergo they beleeue the 39. articles for themselues PILK But if diuers papists be not deceiued S. Aug. meaneth not the present churche but the churche which was in the Apostles tyme that sawe Christs miracles and heard his preachinge and so this speach of S. August helpeth you nothinge excepte you canne prooue that the present churche hath the same authoritie with the Apostles which your owne Driedo flathe denieth Ecclesia primitiua propter collegium Apostolorum ad tradendam nouam nostrae fidei Doctrinam maioris erat gratiae maiorisque authoritatis quam Ecclesia quae nunc est Accordinge to the Doctrine of S. August and Hierome CHAMP Thoughe S. Aug. shoulde meane the churche in the Apostles tyme excludinge the present churche which is false yett woulde this ouerthrowe your cause For whence coulde he receiue the testimonie of that churche but by authoritie of the churches present and precedent And yett this serueth sufficientlie my turne to prooue some other rule of beleefe besides and before the scriptures which is our controuersie here That which you alleage out of our Driedo doth not prooue the present churche to be lesse infallible in her iudgmeÌ„t in matters of faith then the churche in the Apostles tyme neither doth anie catholicke say so For seinge it is gouerned by the same spirit of truth which was promised shoulde remaine with her for euer shee cannot be
by scripture to acknowledge I say this position to be false which notwithstandinge is one mayne grounde of all theire religion PILK When a souldier that killed Marius came to cutt of his head he drewe out his sworde and told him hie est gladius quem ipse fecisti for Marius formerlie had been a cutter The groundes that you haue layde cutt the throate of your faith but raseth not the skinne of the protestants For I haue shewed before that scriptures doe sufficiently prooue themselues to be the worde of God and these and these bookes to be such whereon it followeth your conuincinge demonstration that protestants beleeue nothinge att all to be a windy friuoulous discourse whereas such conclusions may be drawne from your principles as will prooue vulnera in capite canis you will not easilie licke them hole CHAMP Remoue the sworde first from your owne throate whiâ—hâ—â— presseth to harde and after may you atteÌ„pt to pietie your aduersarie with it You haue hitherto made a 〈…〉 able shewe of anie proofe but of your owne in reâ—lible ignorance and impertinencie ioyned with wilfull stande to deâ—eâ—â—e your reader If you defend your proâ—estaâ—â—s no better then hitherto you â—â—â—ue they will be euidentlie concluded to belieue nothinge att all by the argument proposed which 〈…〉 e you cannott tell where to begin to solue oâ— anâ—weâ—e you make a Thrasonicall and glorious shâ—we of contempt of it as manie of yours 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 elie your grand maister Calluine when 〈…〉 most prest and hath least to say for himselfe Are you nâ—â— ashamed to lett myne argument stand as a â—â—â—phey against you your heresie without saying one worde in answere of it idlie supposinge that you haue sayde somethinge to it before But seeinge you dare not sett vppon mine argument to satisfi it which you should first haue donne lett vs see what incurable woundes you geue vnto me out of myne owne principles PILK For they that relie theire faith vppon humane testimonies originallie are conuinced to haue no faith att all for faith commeth by hearinge and hearinge by the worde of God But you papists relie your faith vppon humane testimonies originallie when you ground it on the authoritie of the churche which you say is a more vniuersall rule and more auncient then the scriptures Now then make the conclusion as pleaseth you CHAMP I graunte your proposition or maior and deny your minor For where learned you to terme the authoritie of the churche humane testimonie seeinge the holy ghost stileth the churche the house of God the piller and grounde of truth your conclusion therefore is blowne away like a fether So that the wounde which you thought woulde prooue so grieuous is not so much as the blowe of a litle childe Spitt therefore vppon your handes take better hold and strike more manfullie or else geue your bill to another But so hoodewinkt you are either with ignorance or malice that strikinge at your aduersarie you hitt your selfe For whilst you say with S. Paule that faith commeth by hearinge hearinge by the worde of God you prooue that the scripture or the word written which is not hearde but reade is not the first meanes of our saith but the worde of God preached as S. Paule sayth in the same place which was before the scriptures PILK From hence commeth all this warr that we will not grounde our faith vppon the totteringe wall of humane authoritie as you doe but cleaue fast to the sacred scriptures beleeuinge nothinge as Paule taught but that which was written in Moises and the prophetts which we reioyce to haue made the meane grounde of our religion CHAMP A stoute Champion I wisse that after the first blowe and that a verie weake one casteth downe his armes and thinkinge to ouerthrowe his aduersarie with wordes falleth to raylinge as if he hoped to gaine the victorie rather by his stinkinge breath then by strength of hande stroakes You hauing been att the schoole of the father of all falsehoode haue learned to call the churche of God and the infallible authoritie thereof the totteringe wall of humane authoritie which the holy ghoste by the mouth of this Apostle stileth the piller and ground of truth wherby as by manie other passages you shewe what honour and respect you beare vnto the holy scriptures seeinge you dare so disdainfullie debase the house of God which they so highelie prise and extoll You farther glorie in that you beleeue nothinge but which is written in Moises and the prophettes whereby you prooue your selfe to be a Iewe and no Christian Either retract this Iewishe proposition of yours or blotte out of your Bibles the whole newe testament that you may be knowne to be noe Christian and that you may fill vppe the measure of your grande mayster Martin Luther who hath longe since cast out diuers bookes out of the newe testament besides those he hath reiected out of the oulde You seeme to father this your fowle doctrine vppon S. Paule thoughe you dayne him not the honour of S. Paule but why doe you not poynte att the place where he teacheth it If S. Paule had been of this minde that you woulde seeme to make him of in vayne did he write his Epistells in vayne did the rest of the Apostles and Euangelists write theire workes Againe suppose S. Paule had written anie such thinge in his letters or Epistles howe woulde you make anie man beleeue that Epistle to be his and therefore to be canonicall scriptures vnlesse you will vse the authoritie of tradition and the churches testimonie All the witt and cunning you haue yea thoughe you borrowed all that of the rest of the ministers in the worlde will not shape a sufficient answere to this question PILK And which if we coulde not prooue yett canne we not be conuinced to haue noe faith because they are principles against which none dare open his mouth that anie way woulde haue himselfe to be counted a Christian as S. Aug. spake For as other artes and sciences are sufficientlie knowne credited without proofe of theire principles so matters diuine are perfectlie and demonstratiuelie persuaded vnto vs from this indemonstrable principle of the holy scriptures saith Clemens and are not prooued by iudgment but comprehended by faith CHAMP Why doe you say which iâ— we coulde not prooue as thoughe you had some meane to prooue it without traditions and the churches authoritie But they are principle you say and therefore not to be prooued The scriptures are principles of faith in deede in a certayne degree but they are not prime principles which onlie are to be beleeued for themselues without anie further proofe vnles as I toulde you before you will make them to be God who onlie is to be beleeued for his owne proper veritie and all other verities for him And when you say out of S. Aug. that none dare open their mouth against them that will be counted a
Moreouer were it certainly knowne vnto vs that S. Mathewe wrote the gospell we haue vnder his owne name as it is nowe by tradition and the churches authoritie yett vnles it were further certaine that he wrote by diuine inspiration which without some diuine testimonie we knowe not it could not be certaine to vs that his gospell is the word of God Nowe if you had lefte out of the number of those that haue called the scriptures into questioÌ„ Iesuites and putt in theire place Lutherans or Protestants your wordes might haue passed for currant But tell me in the small honestie of a protestant minister did you euer knowe that anie Iesuite called anie booke of scripture into question or doubte you cannot thoughe you burst your selfe giue an instance Whereas you doe not onlie call manie bookes of the holy Byble into doubt but absolutlie reiect them as Apocripha and your Grand father Luther with his truer disciples doth manie moe euen of those which you say is madnes to call into question Hath malice so blinded you and wilfull rage against the truth made you so madd that you feele not the deadly woundes which you geue your selfe whilst you strike or at least thinke to strike your aduersarie PILK But what iuglinge is this we beleeue these bookes to be theirs whose names they carrie for the authoritie of the churche that is the Pope who is S. Peeters successour and holdeth all his authoritie from him and yett we cannot beleeue S. Peeter himselfe that this Epistle is his but because the present Pope hath so determined it CHAMP I cannot say that you iugle here you are so grossely impertinent and hoodle vppe so manie apparant absurdities in these fewe wordes Where learned you I pray you that the Pope is the churche or that he holdeth all his authoritie from S. Peter and not from Christ himselfe Againe where doth S Peter testifie that this is his Epistle haue you or anie of your reformed bretheren heard him say it no such thinge Seeing therefore neither you nor anie man nowe a liue euer heard him testifie anie such thinge what great iuglinge is it I pray you to beleeue a liuely and liuinge witnes assisted by the spiritt of truth and taught by those who lineallie descended from S. Peter testifiinge that these are S. Peters writinges rather then to beleeue a doombe paper or parchment which might be written by some other as well as other thinges that went a broade vnder the same Apostles name And by that which hath beeÌ„ hitherto sayde on both sides you may see if you will not shut your eies that you may not see that it is cleare notwithstandinge all your childishe ianglinge that all articles of faith are not contayned in scriptues otherwise then is mentioned in the position of the Manuall nowe lett vs see your answere to the other proofes of the same position PILK To your second instance we say with Saint August that we are not willinge to moue anie questions aboute the Mother of God for the honour we beare vnto her sonne Yett sith you stirre the coales we answere that it is an highe pointe of our faith and sufficientlie prooued in the scriptures that Christe was borne of an intemerat Virgin but whether after his birth shee were knowne of Ioseph thoughe the negatiue be a seemelie and reuerend truth yett we say with Basill that it toucheth not our faith CHAMP You woulde seeme to be religiouslie affected towardes the blessed Virgin but notwithstandinge you minse S. Aug wordes least you shoulde doe her too much honour his wordes are these De Maria propter honorem Saluatoris nullam cum de â—eccatis agitur habere volo quaestionem And in the end you are content rather to incline towardes the old heretike Heluidius then to beleeue with the holy catholike churche concerninge the perpetuall virginitie of the blessed Virgin Where is nowe I pray you your rule of faith before mentioned non credimus quia non legimus I coniure you vppon forfeiture of your honestie and integritie either to reiect that rule as noe sufficient grounde of faith in anie article or else to beleeue that the blessed Virgin was neuer knowne of anie man Take whether parte you please you shall geue sentence for me against your selfe PILK Your thirde instance is no article of faith but â— Canon of manners so in the number not of thinges to be beleeued but to be donne Wherein thoughe to the Apostles for the auoydinge of scandall for the eatinge of thinges strangled and blood yett when the offence was remoued the eatinge was allowed Rom. 14. 14. 1. Tim. 4. 4. and Saint August prooueth it out of S. Mathewe cap. 15. 17. 18. CHAMP Are you so blockishe that you doe not or so peruerse that you will not see the difference betweene the practise of anie thinge and the doctrine of the lawfulnes of the same practise Whereby you might be taught that thoughe the first be not an article of faith yett the second may be For example thoughe it be not an article of faith for two single persons to marrie together but a matter of practise yett is it a matter of faith that they may lawfullie marrie together as I hope you will not denie and so in fiue hundreth more thinges That the Apostles did make that prohibition for a tyme onlie and not to continue euer where is it written or whence haue you it but by the churches authoritie interpretation The places of scriptures by you cited were they to the purpose as they are not woulde be sufficient arguments to make some of the bookes doubtfull as coÌ„tradictinge the one the other were there not a iudge to reconcile them and bringe them to attonement togeather And thus you see all the three instances brought in proofe of the catholike position in the Manuall to remaine firme and solide and your euasions to be childishe wranglings without truth or substance PILK Thus you see you fight against God when you warre against the perfection of holy worde Which that you may more plainlie perceiue in the last place I will sett downe the protestants doctrine not in such double tearmes as you deuised but theire owne wordes as they haue positiuelie deliuered with the seuerall authorities of holy scriptures whereby they confirme it and testimonies of fathers whereby they shewe the consanguinitie of it with the purest Christians For the positions sett downe by you are not by them acknowledged CHAMP If you deny my positions to be true as hauinge hitherto disputed against them you seeme to doe then must you of necessitie acknowledge the contradictorie to be true and maintaine them as yours vnles you will haue both contradictories to be false which no man yett euer hearde of But why doe you not put downe the positions which I call the protestants positions that the reader might see how iustlie you denie them to be yours I will supply your defect that the
of tyme and place chaunge and alter as experience teacheth and not of matters of faith and beliefe which are euer the same without anie chaunge or alteration So that my position hath no other contrarietie with S. Aug. doctrine then heate hath with white or hearinge with seeinge PILK Vniuersalitie is a note to finde out the churche by Attende not those companies that goe the broade way they are manie and who cann number them and fewe goe in the narrowe way bringe forth thy weights weighe them see what a deale of chaffe for a littell corne CHAMP The farther you goe the more your ignoraunce or obstinacie doth appeare Are you not ashamed to make S. Aug. att oddes with the Apostles and Nycen Creede both which make vniuersalitie a note propriety of the true churche Besides are you so shallow brayned that you see not that S. Aug. speaketh here of baddly liuinge Christians which make not diuerse churches but are as Chaffe in the same baâ—ne or flore with the good Corne and not of misbeleeuing heretiks and Sectaries which make theire conuenticles a parte out of the churche and are neuer comparable to the true churche for vniuersalitie either of time or place Againe why doe you charge me in the page followinge with forgeinge this propositioÌ„ and fatheringe it vppon you â—he true churche of christe is not necessarilie Catholicke or vniuersall either in respect of place or tyme if you wil denie vniuersallity to be a note of the true churche You are so busied to make contrarieties betwixt my positions and the fathers doctrine that you runne into euident contradictions with your selfe and that within the space of a litle leafe of paper Either confesse the cause which you would defende to be so badd that it inforceth you to these absurdities or leaue the defence of it to some others of better skill and iudgment PILK The true churche of God is visible and apparant both to the saithfull beleeuers that are in it and also to heretickes and others that are out of it What churche nowe freelie serueth Christ For if it be godlie it is exposed to daungers if there be in anie place faithfull seruants of Christ as in all places there are manie they like vnto the great prophett Elias are secret and hide themselues in dennes and caues of the earth or wandringe vppe and downe remayne in the wildernes CHAMP If you woulde haue proued the truth of my position and the conformitie thereof with the doctrine of S. Athanasius you could not easilie haue donne it more effectuallie then by the testimonie you bringe out of him to prooue the contrarie so deuoyde of iudgment are you in all your sayinges For the churche that is exposed to daungers that is in all places and is persecuted is doubtles visible both to the faithfull and to the heretikes Yea those seruantes of Christ that like vnto Elias hide themselueâ— in dennes and remaine in the wildernes are not inuisible more then the catholickes nowe are in Englande whereof some parte is in prison others are in woodes and wildernesses as these were of whom S. Athanasius speaketh And if you could shewe such a visible churche of protestants before Martin Luther you would not vse the shamelesse shift of an inuisible churche whereunto you are driuen by meere necessitie PILK S. Peter was by our Sauiour Christe constituted supreame heade or soueraigne Bishop or pastour ouer his whole churche militant Christe gaue to all his Apostles equall power after his resurrection and sayde as my Father sent me so send I you receiue the holy ghoste whose sinnes you remitt they are remitted and a litle after the rest of the Apostles were the same that Peeter was endued with like fellowshippe both of honour and power CHAMP The equalitie of power to remitt sinnes or as the diuines terme it power of order of which equalitie S. Cyprian speaketh in all the Apostles doth stande well with the supremacie of the power of iurisdiction and gouernment which S. Cyprian geueth to S. Peeter Againe all the Apostles were of equall power in respect of the rest of the churche but not in respect of themselues For one head was chosen saith S. Hierome that the occasion of schisme might be taken away Where you are also to note that if you will still persist to vrge the equalitie of power in all the Apostles out of this testimonie of S. Cyprian you must also in like manner conclude the equalitie of honour in them all which notwithstandinge none of you dare to doe in regarde of so manie prerogatiues clearly geuen to S. Peter both in holy scriptures and by all antiquitie For which reason Spalatensis who hath strugled more peruersly against S. Peter his supremacie then anie other hereticke hitherto doth graunte vnto him a supremacie in diuerse respects thinkinge thereby as 〈◊〉 hee is malicious and peruerse by grauntinge him some parte of his due more easilie to depriue him of the rest Either cease therefore to impugne S. Peter his supreamacie out of this testimonie of S. Cyprian or if you will continue still to doe it take his whole wordes and sence and so shall you make him opposite to your selues PILK The Bishop of Rome is the lawfull and lineall successour of S. Peter in that charge and office which our Sauiour gaue vnto S. Peter ouer his churche militant Lett none of vs make him selfe bishop of bishops or by tyrannicall feare force his fellowes to necessitie of obedience seeinge euerie bishop hath free libertie and licence of his owne power and may not iudge another no more then another may iudge him but lett vs expect the iudgment of our Lord Iesus Christ who onlie and alone hath power to prefer vs in the gouernmeÌ„t of the churche and to iudge of our acts CHAMP I knowe not whether I shoulde ascribe it to ignorance or peruersitie that you produce this Testimonie as opposite to my position For no man of common sence that readeth in S. Aug. whence you cite it but will iudge it most impertinentlie alleadged for your purpose S. Cyprian there speakinge to his fellowe Bishopps of Affricke willinge them to giue their opinions of the matter proposed which was touchinge the Baptisme of heretickes professinge to keepe vnion and communion with them that should iudge other waies then he did And this without mention or intention to include in his speach the Bishope of Rome but directeth his wordes to the Bishops present for that particular matter which there he proposed vnto them PILK To holy Saincts and Angells in heauen is due more then ciuill honour and reuerence We honour the Angells with loue not seruice we builde them no temples c our religion teacheth vs not to worshippe dead men CAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie if not both lieth so open to all men that nothinge else appeareth hitherto in you If you had read S. Aug and but halfe
present churche which as a liuelie and liuinge iudge and interpreter hath power to interprete aswell the coūsells and traditions when there is doubte of them as it hath to interprete the scripture which beeinge added they are not subiect to anie farther doubte or delusion PILK Concerninge Tradition Eusebius will informe you that in the Cittie of Rome the rule of Ecclesiasticall Tradition was vexed with diuers nouelties and as for councells howe shamefullie your Popes woulde haue corrupted that of Nice the fathers of the first councell of Carthage haue formerlie manifested vnto the worlde and howe vainlie at this day your diuines delude the sixt Canon of the same councell purposely made to geue equall honour vnto the Patriarche to patronize your Popes Monarchie euerie bleare eie doth easilie perceiue CHAMP Your intention by inculcatinge these ould and ouerworne obiections I meane these of councells haue been answered an hundred tymes being onlie to deturne your reader from the subiect in hand and to drawe your aduersarie into like confusion of matters with you I will passe ouer those wordes of yours expectinge your confutation of the answeres alreadie to these same obiections before I will trouble my selfe to answere them againe before the first answeres be confuted by you That which Eusebius saith of vexinge traditions is true marry it was by such as your selfe and your fellowe hetetikes whose endeuours were frustrated by the catholike pastours see him reader and marueil at Mr. Pilkintons witt in citing him PILK Nowe when you cannot fullie prooue your faith out of scriptures you fall presentlie to wounde them with your slaunderous accusation that they are not able to conuince heretickes noe not such seelie ones as Legat not perceuinge how euenlie you iumpe with ould heretikes who whē they are conuinced by the scriptures fall to rayle on them as thoughe they were not right nor sufficientlie authorized but various and not full to finde the truth by them without tradition CHAMP Why doe you not I pray your answere the instance made in Legat ◠knowe well the reason you can as well answere it as you can beate downe Paules steeple with your fiste You call it in this same section a sheepishe obiection but that is onlie a caluishe solution And that heretikes cannott be conuinced out of scripture onlie hearken I pray you to aunciēt Tertullian who was better conuersant in these conflictes then either of vs yea then both of vs putt together thus he writeth The conflict with the scriptures profiteth nothinge but to turne either the stomacke or the braine For which he geueth this reason This herefie receiueth not certaine scriptures as the protestants for examples and if it receiue anie it araweth them to her purpose by additions and detractions And if it receiue the whole scriptures it depraueth them by diuers expositions Whereas the adulterous sence doth no lesse destroy the truth then doth the corrupted letter What wilt thou gaine then that arte cunninge in scriptures when that which thou defendest is denyed and that which thou denyest is defended Thou shalt indeede loose nothinge but thy voyce with contēdinge nor shalt thou gayne anie thinge but choler hearinge blasphemies The heretikes will say that we adulterate the scripture and bringe lyinge expositions and that they defende the truth Therefore must not appeale be made to the scriptures nor must the conflict be in them by which the victorie is either vncertayne or little certaine or none att all But lett vs nowe goe forwarde PILK But lett this be the first issue betwixt you and me whether scriptures onlie will fullie conuince heretikes wherein the negatiue is yours the affirmatiue mine and thus I double it out of the worde of God That which doth perfect the man of God to euerie good worke enableth him fullie to conuince heretikes for this is one mayne dutie of his callinge to conuince contradictours But the scriptures doe perfect the man of God to euerie good worke and particularlie S. Paule expresseth conuiction therefore they teach him fullie to conuince heretickes CHAMP I verie willinglie accept of your chalenge and am content to ioyne issue with you in this point desiringe no other iudge or vmpire of the victorie then your owne patron of Canterburie To your double therefore out of the worde of God I answere that the minor or seconde proposition of your argument is not out of scripture nor in it selfe true For the place of scripture which you ayme at is this All scripture inspired by God i◠profitable to teache to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euerie good worke Out of which place if you woulde conclude anie thinge by lawfull argument you shoulde argue thus That which is profitable to teach to argue to correct and instruct in iustice that the man of God may be perfect instructed in euerie good worke is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes of theire errour that they cannot delude it by false interpretation But all scripture inspired by God is such therefore all scripture inspired by God is sufficient so fullie to conuince heretikes that they cannot delude it by false interpretation The conclusion of which argument is the issue betwixt you and me The medium you vse to prooue it are the wordes of the Apostle which if you had putt downe simplie and whollie and not dubled as you say by curtayllinge them you would easilie haue seene if you see anie thinge that they are as farr from cōcludinge your affirmatiue as the argument followinge is from concludinge that which is put in the conclusion thereof Marke it I pray you and learne to argue better especiallie when you dispute for the victorie in a matter of such moment as this is That which is proffitable to nourishe to exhilarate and conforte or strengthen man that he may be able to exercise all man-like functions and actions is sufficient to defende him from his enemies and to vanquishe them Butt al wines are such Therfore al wines are sufficiēt to defende a mā frō his enimies to vanquishe thē By which argumēt which is the verie same in forme that yours shoulde be if you would haue formed it out of the Apostles wordes you see if you onlie are not blinde how ridiculouslie you double your affirmatiue out of gods worde Besides your argument is for diuers other respects either foolishe or fraudubent For S. Paule saith that all scripture that is euerie parte parcell of scripture is profitable to teache c yet you will not I hope say that euerie parcell of scripture is sufficient to conuince heretikes Agayne the Apostle speaketh manifestlie of such scriptures as Timothy had learned from his childehoode which without controuersie were onlie the scriptures of the old testament of which you will not affirme that they are sufficient to conuince all heretikes And so you see the liuinge wherewith you woulde double your affirmatiue to be so
blasphemous Arians To say nothinge of the diuell his citinge of scripture euen against our blessed Sauiour by al which it is more then euident that the sence of holy scripture besides the wordes is necessarilie required to make sufficient proofe of true doctrine For which reason I often bringe the incorrupte testimonie of some holy father for the sence of the place alleaged by me who haueinge liued att least a thousande yeares before these controuersies began cannott be esteemed partiall one our side PILK We adore the fulnes of scripture and prooue from thence not some but euerie pointe of our doctrine which you Iesuits neither canne doe nor professe to doe but the contrarie charginge them with insufficiencie and imperfection which howe manfullie you can desprooue by other texts will appeare in the discourse ensuinge CHAMP As you are more redounâ— in wordes in this section then in the precedent so are you more impertinent Your flant out of Tertullian shall be answered in the controuersie of scripture where you repeat it againe And for your vaine and windie brag to prooue euerie point of your doctrine out of holy scripture I knowe alreadie howe it will be performed to witt by fillinge your margents with quotations of scripture to delude the ignorant which beinge examined and compared with the article to be prooued haue as much resemblaÌ„ce with it as an aple with an oyster The ministers of Fraunce beinge of late detected of this fraude before the kinge himselfe and prouoked by his preacher to iustifie theire citations of scripture quoted in the margent of the confession of theire faith thoughe they seemed to take haynouslie the accusation yett till this day haue they not iustified theire quotations nor euer will Howe you will quitt your selfe in this point we shall see when we come vnto itt PILK In the meane while it is vntrue that all heretikes alleaged scriptures which they loue as wel as dogges doe whippes but iust as you papists say there is more force in tradition then in the written worde for they are owles that cannot abide the light of the scripture they massacre them as Martian did that they may builde vppe theire owne matters they alleage Apostolicall traditions as Artemon did who saide that all the auncients yea the Apostells taught and saide like himselfe and laide handes on the scriptures irreligiouslie sayinge that he had reformed them CHAMP You affirme bouldlie but prooue nothinge a fowle faulte in a doctour That all heretikes vniuersallie alleage scriptures which you say is moste vntrue heare the testimonie of one that is not partiall to either of vs and of more iudgment in this matter then vs both I meane Vincentius Lirinensis of equall standinge with S. Aug. who writeth thus Some will peraduenture demande here whether heretikes doe vse the testimonies of scripture They doâ— trulie and that vehementlie For you shall see them runne thorough all the bookes of holy scripture throughe the bookes of Moses of the kinges of the psalmes of the Apostles Euangelists and prophets For whether they speake with theire owne fellowes or with other whether priuatelie or publikelie whether in Sermons or in bookes whether in banquetts or in the streetes they neuer vtter anie thinge of theire owne but they will seeme to shaddowe it with the wordes of scripture Reade the workes of Paulus Samosateuus of Priscilian of Eunomius of Luther Caluin Zuinglius and of the rest of the plagues thou shalt finde almost an infinite heape of examples noe page that is not painted with the passages ' of the newe testament Nowe iudge your selfe whether your sayinge or myne is the more vntrue Yea which is more doe not I pray you the phaÌ„tasticall Swinkefildians a younger broode of your grande father Luther alleage scripture for theire reiectinge of all scripture and adheringe to theire dreames and reuelations yea and such scriptures as if you had the like for anie pointe of your misbeleefe you would thinke it fullie prooued by them You say that heretikes hate scriptures as dogges doe whippes which is true when they are vnderstoode in the sence of the churche and not accordinge to theire owne interpretation and after the same manner doe you loue them and not otherwise They affirme say you as papists doâ— more force to be in traditions then in scriptures What papist can you name that euer affirmed this name one at least or say you belie theÌ„ and doe not inuert the question but compare the receiued scripture with an approoued tradition for so are they to be compared to finde out whether of them hath the greater force where I woulde haue you further to note that the heretikes theire alleaginge of traditions doth prooue the authoritie of traditions euen with catholikes For no man of common seÌ„ce will alleage an authoritie which he knoweth to be not receiued of his aduersarie or could proue that it ought to be receiued You say Marâ—ion did massacre the scriptures But did he massacre the them more then your Maysters Luther and Caluin doe who cutt out of them manie whole bookes besides manie notable parcels of those bookes which they seeme to receiue Artemon you say affirmed that all the auncients yea the Apostles taught as he did and yett layde irreligious handes vppon the scriptures sayinge he had reformed them And doe not I pray you your masters say and doe the verie same where for the loue of God were your witts when you wrote these thinges that you sawe not all these sayinges of yours to be bloudie stripes to your selfe lett vs see the rest PILK Yea Arrius himselfe began thus his booke Thalia After this manner haue I learned of the elect of God accordinge to faith the knowers of him and the right walkers after him And of his followers whom you esteeme to haue stoode so much vppon the scriptures Athanasius reportes that when they coulde not preuaile by them they fledd to the Fathers as theeues vsuallie pretende honest and modest men to be theire companions like the wicked Iewes which claimed Abraham for theire Father when they were conuicted by the scriptures Against all which as against your traditions we oppose that worthie sayinge of Hierome All thinges that they pretende without authoritie and testimonie of scriptures the worde of God thrust through CHAMP You goe still forewarde in your impertinences hauinge either forgotten what you shoulde prooue or wittinglie wandringe vpp and downe to dazell the eies of your lesse skilfull reader and to wearie your aduersarie with followinge your idle stepps What I pray you doth all this you haue sayde make to prooue that heretickes alleage not scriptures for theire errours which is that you vndertooke to prooue nothinge att all If you woulde prooue that Arrius and his sectaries alleaged not scriptures for theire heresie because in the first line of his booke Thalia which seemeth to haue much semblance with the stile of your elected brotherhoode he alleageth none you are too seelie a
there appeare a â—arre in the scriptures that some of them are opposed to others as it fell out betweene the auncient Bishoppes and the Arrians betweene the Catholikes and Donatists betweene Pelagians and godlie teachers and nowe betweene you and vs that on both sides they are produced a iudge must be sought for to reconcile them Who is that not a Christian for he is partie on the one side or the other not a pagan he knoweth not the misteries of Christianitie not a Iewe for he is an enemie to Christian Baptisme on Earth there can be founde noe iudgment saith Optatus But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospell his testament for here earthlie thinges may be compared to heauenlie See howe we may come to the true sence not by seekinge vnto the Pope not by restinge vppon determinations of councels not by settinge on Traditions but by flyinge vnto the Testament For as the same Optatus goeth on Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthlie Father who hauinge manie children ruleth them all so longe as he liueth noe testament so longe is necessarie euen so Christ so longe as he was present vppon earth althoughe nowe he be not wantinge gaue in charge vnto the Apostles whatsoeuer for the tyme was necessarie But as an earthlie father feelinge himselfe in the consines of death fearinge after his decease his children will contendâ— and breake peace calleth witnesses and from his dyinge breast draweth his will into lastinge tables and if there fall out anie contention amonge the brethren they goe not to his tombe but seeke his testament and so he that quietly resteth in his tombe speaketh still from the tables as if he were aliue He whose testament we haue is in heauen therefore lett his will be sought for in his gospell as in a testament for these thinges which presentlie yeâ— doe he foresawe that yee would doe CHAMP Because these sayinges of Optatus haue the same meaninge with that of S. Aug which imediatlie followeth it shall there appeare howe litle they serue your turne Here are onlie to be noted these wordes of his On earth there is founde noe iudge By which wordes he excludeth not all iudgment vppon earth for so should he exclude the testament also it selfe but he excludeth all earthlie or humane iudgment as vnfitt and vnable to decide differencies of faith of which sorte the iudgment of the churche is not For shee is the piller and ground of truth perpetuallie assisted by the holy Ghost which teacheth and suggesteth to her all truth PILK S. August runneth the verie same course almost vseth the same wordes as if he had taken them out of Optatus we are brethren saith he why doe we striue our father died not intestate he hath made a testament and so died men doe striue aboute the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read the iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the crier biddeth peace all the people are attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read and heard he lyeth voide of life and feelinge in his graue and his wordes preuaile Christe doth sitt in heauen and is his testament gainsayde open it lett vs reade it we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes be pacified our father hath not lefte vs without a testament he that made the testament is liuinge for euer he doth heare our wordes he doth knowe his owne worde why doe we striue CHAMP S. Aug by these plaine wordes of the spalme Reminisâ—entur conuertentur ad Dominum omnes fines terrae Et adorabunt in conspectâ— eius vniuersae familiae genti 〈…〉 as by the confessed testament of the father prooueth that the Donatists haue noe right to the inheritance of the churche which they contrarie to the testament of God expressed in the psalme say was onlie in a corner of the world amongst them Who notwithstandinge were not come to that degree of seÌ„clesnes as to say the church was inuisible as the protestants doe Iustlie therefore did S. Aug prouoke the Donatists in this pointe to the tryall of the testament as also the catholikes doe the protestantes in the pointe of the reall presence and diuers others Which tryall notwithstandinge is not sufficient where either scripture is opposed to scripture or it is not agreed vppon which is the scripture it selfe as it happeneth betweene the catholikes and protestants as shall â—ore amplie appeare by and by PILK And S. Ambrose more auncient then both to Gratian the Emperour Beleeue not Emperour our Argument and our disputation let vs aske the Scriptures let vs aske the Apostles let vs aske the Prophets let vs aske Christ what shoulde I adde more let vs aske the Father of whose honour they say they are Iealous CHAMP Sr. you alwaies speake besides the purpose The question betweene you and me is not whether the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the church are not sufficient to decide anie controuersie in faith and namelie that whereof S. Amb. disputeth which is not denyed vnto you but whether the scriptures lefte vnto the interpretation of either party contendinge are a sufficient iudge to end all controuersies in faith In which question I defende the negatiue and you the affirmatiue if you will yett contend anie more These testimonies therefore of the fathers aswell of S. Ambrose as those that went before and also that followe are alleaged beside the question and altogether impertinentlie as all the rest of your sayinges for the moste parte are PILK A Gentile cometh and saith I woulde be a Christian but I knowe not which side to cleaue vnto manie dissentions are amonge you and I cannot tell which opinion to holde euerie one saith I speake the truth and the scriptures on both sides are pretended so that I knowe not whom to beleeue To this Chrisostome replyeth trulie this maketh much for vs for well might you be troubled if we should say we rely vppon reason but seeinge we take the scriptures which are so true and playne it will be an easie matter for you to iudge if anie consent vnto them he is a Christian if anie goe against them he is farr from this rule CHAMP This allegation of S. Chrisost is not onlie impertinent as all the rest are but fraudulent and proceedinge of a minde not willinge to finde out the truth but to deceiue the reader For the wordes imediatlie followinge and lefte out by you Mr. Pilkinton propose directlie the question which nowe is in hande and the answere thereof followeth also consequentlie Quid igitur saith S. Chrisost What therefore if he say that the scripture hath in this sort and thou sayest another thinge explicatinge the scriptures otherwise and drawinge theire sence to fauour thee Loe here the question in controuersie betweene Mr. Pilkinton and me Howe doth S. Chrisostome answere it doth he send vs to
which two distinct natures there be two wills and two operations as S. Luke sheweth not my will but thy will be doÌ„ne For he that hath two perfect natures must needes haue theire natural properties operations but to wil worke are natural proprieties operations followinge both natures in Christ therfore he had two willes and two operations All which places are vrged by the auncient Fathers and late writers protestants and papists to confirme these seuerall points in so much that you are forced to graunt that they haue a true proofe from the holy scriptures And then I may say as S. August saith to Maximian the Arrian Si vox ista vera est quaestio illa finita est But you papists haue nimbler witts then the fathers for you are not content with truth but you must haue full proofe as thoughe that proofe which to a man is true were not full For there can be noe fuller proofe then that which doth conuince and satisfie the vnderstandinge but a true proofe doth so For what is truth but adaequatio rei intellectus And yett if there be anie difference betweene true full these articles are fullie concluded out of the scripture For beinge articles of the Apostolicke creede they are plainlie sett downe as Bellarmine confesseth out of S. Aug. And some of them questioned by the Arrians as the consubstantialitie of the sonne which in the next place you except against he saith that of these questions which then were moued clarissima extabant in scripturis testimonia quae sine dubio antepÌ„onenda sunt omnibus conciliorum testimonijs These thinges then that haue most cleare testimonies out of scriptures and to be preferred before all testimonies of councells haue a full proofe from them but such are some of these articles yett you proceede to fight against scriptures and wringe from Christians one of the strongest Bulwarkes they haue against Arrians I and the consubstantialitie of the sonne because the Arrians interpreted it of vnitie of concorde and will But if the mist of poperie had not blinded your eyes you might easily haue seen vnanswerable arguments out of the text to prooue the sonne consubstantiall to the father and so to be vnderstoode of the vnitie of substance For the Iewes require him to tell them plainely whether he be that Christ he answereth directlie he is there fore the naturall and consubstantiall sonne of God as he prooueth Matt. 22. 45. out of the Psalme 100. If then Dauid called him Lorde howe is he then his sonne Secondlie he that geueth eternall life to his sheepe so that none can take them out of his hande is of the same power and consequentlie of the same nature with God For what is it to be God but to be of the highest and greatest power then which none greater but the sonne doth soe ver 28. 29. And I geue vnto them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall anie plucke them out of myne hande Thirdlie the Iewes tooke vppe stones to stone him as a blasphemer as one that made himselfe God this cause they sett downe in plaine termes verse 33. Because thou makest thy selfe God beinge man but it is no blasphemie to be of the like will desire and affection with God playne therefore it is by Christs argument that he did preache God so to be his Father as the Iewes vnderstoode he would haue himselfe the naturall sonne of God See nowe excepte you be blinder theÌ„ the Iewes how plentifullie this scripture prooueth the consubstaÌ„tialitie of the sonne and as for the place of Io. 17. it helpeth not the Arrians at all as S. Aug. sheweth to Pascentius the Arrian For that wheresoeuer the scripture speaketh of two that are one as in this place they are euer of one substance And therfore he chargeth both Maximianus theire Bishoppe and Pascentius a noble man of theire opinion to trauers the scriptures if anie where they coulde shew two sayde to be one that are not one in substance But lett this be graunted that I and the Father are one prooueth onlie vnitie of will not of substance is there not an armie of scriptures besides this to prooue the sonne of the same substance that we neede not call in the authoritie of the churche CHAMP You haue bestowed all this labour moste idlie goinge aboute to prooue to me that these articles are true and to haue true grounde in the scriptures which no catholicke euer doubted of That which you shoulde haue laboured in if you woulde haue spoken to the purpose is that these articles haue so full proofe out of scriptures onlie that an heretike might be conuinced thereby without iudgment and interpretation of the churche vppon the same places Which is euidently prooued to be false by the many and diuerse heresies which haue been maintayned against all these articles For the authors thereof hereticallie refusinge the vnderstandinge of the church vppon those places of scriptures and diuers others as you also doe in the places condemninge your heresies and followinge wilfullie theire owne iudgment therein as you in like manner doe coulde not be conuinced of theire errours but interpreted these places and all others brought against them in such sorte as they made not against them att all And as for the particuler authorities proouing diuers of these articles consulte with your Grand Maister Caluin and see what weight he putâ—eth in them for the proofe of the sayde misteries Or if you like not to turne his bookes read the litle booke written by Egidius Hunnius a professed protestant intituled Caluinus Iudaizans and you shall see whether he was conuinced in these articles by all the passages of holy scripture alleaged for that purpose Yett would I not haue you to thinke that I approoue his wicked doctrine herein which I detest as most hereticall but onlie produce him as an irreprooueable instance of my position Therefore all the longe lose and imperfect discourse which you haue made in this paragraffe wherein are manie paralogismes and impertinencies so farr as it prooueth anie thinge prooueth Caluin to haue been a wicked miscreant but prooueth nothinge against my position which denieth not these verities to haue most true ground in holy scripture according to the true sence and meaninge thereof but not in such sorte as the euidence thereof cannot be auoyded by an heretike And you your selfe that wrangle so much heere against all experience as well of the present as all precedent ages will not acknowledge the catholike positions nowe in controuersie prooued by more or at least by as plaine and expresse scripture as these are to be sufficientlie prooued So that I neede seeke no further confirmation of my position then the experience of your owne peruersitie PILK Yea to stoppe your mouth I add that S. Aug. doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the church in his polemicall bookes against the Arrian Bishopp in two seuerall councells the one of Nice the
deliuered in scripture make this conclusion by lawfull argument but of this place and I shall esteeme you a Maister Logician But it is enough for you to quote a place of scripture thoughe as fitly for your purpose as Pruritanus doth manie in your behalfe PILK Proofe 3. Reuelations â—2 18. 19. I testify vnto euerie man that heareth the wordes of the prophecie of this booke if anie shall adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie shall take away from the wordes of the booke of this prophecie God shall take away his parte out of the booke of life and out of the holy cittie and from the thinges that are written in this booke CHAMP What if I should say with your Grand Father Luther that this booke is apocriphall and therefore your proofe of no worth But God forbidd I should be so prophane as to vse such an aunswere I say therefore that to conclude anie thinge out of this testimonie against me you must conclude not onlie your selfe but S. Paule also and all the rest of the writers of holy scripture to be subiect to this curse here mentioned seeinge they haue all added manie thinges to this booke that is they haue taught and written manie thinges to be beleeued and obserued not contayned in this booke which is the sence and force of your argument and which you are bounde to solue So blinde hath heresie made you that you see not what is with you what against you PILK Proofe 4. Gal. 1. 8. 9. Though we or an angell from heauen preach vnto you besides that we haue preached lett him be accursed 1. Cor. 4. 6. That yee might learne in vs not to be wise aboue that which is written If neither an Apostle nor Angell from heauen may preach anie thinge besides that which is written nor be wise aboue it then that which is written contayneth a full doctrine both of faith and manners CHAMP This argument is like the rest and as trulie deducted from the places quoted In the first place the Apostle faith not 〈…〉 that which is written as you fraudulentlie soist in but besides that which we haue preached That your argument therefore may conclude you must shewe out of scripture that the Apostle had not preached anie thinge more then at that tyme he had written which will bee a taske impossible for you euer to performe especially seeinge the Apostle himselfe testifieth the contrarie commaundinge his disciples To holde the traditioÌ„s which they had learned whether by worde or Epistle Againe when he saith besides that we haue preached he meaneth contrarie to that we haue preached as S. Aug expoundeth him 1200. yeeres before your heresie was hatched In the second testimonie the vulgar translation which was receiued for authenticall in S. Hieromes tymes hath not these wordes not to be wiâ—â— But to doe you a fauour I will admitte of your text and I answere that your argument is foolish For he that is wise with the churche teachinge or beleeuinge with the churche which the scriptures testifie to be the piller and ground of truth is not wise aboue that which is written but conformeablie to that which is written And thus you see your position thoughe positiue or affirmatiue to be so farr from being prooued by expresse scripture that it hath not the least ground therein Whereas the positions of the Manuall thoughe onlie negatiue haue expresse instaÌ„ces out of the holy scripture Lett therefore the indifferent and iudicious reader iudge whether of them hath greater arguments of truth And if we should followe you rule non creâ—â—imus quia â—oâ— ie imus howe woulde you perswade vs to beleeue that all truth pertayninge to â—aith and manners necessarie to saluation is fuâ—lie deliuered in holy sceipture Seeinge you cannot shewe vs it written in anie place whereby you see your selfe either driuen to disauowe your rule of beleefe or to confesse this your position not to be beleeued But peraduenture you will make your proofes stronger out of the fathers Lett vs see what you bringe out of them But marke I pray you whether they be expositions of the places of scripture cited in your fauour or sayinges vttered vppon other occasions If they be of the first sorte they will be more forcible for you but if they be of the other kinde as they are they will be of lesse moment for your purpose Well these they are PILK Proofe 5. All thinges that our lorde did are not written but these thinges which the writers thought sufficient for faith and manners that shininge both in truth of â—aith and vertuous workes we might come to the kingdome of heauen CHAMP The scriptures testifyinge the authoritie of the churche and of the pastours thereof with the obligation that euerie one hath to heare and obay them are trulie sayd by S. Cyrill to contayne those thinges which are sufficient for faith and manners For the thinges that are not directlie expressed in them are learned by the pastours of the churche authorised by the scriptures I maruell you were not afrayde of S. Cyrill seeinge he testifyeth so directlie the necessitie of good workes besides faith for the gayninge of the kingdome of heauen But you receiue the fathers no farther then they seeme to make for you such is your sinceritie PILK Proofe 6. Whatsoeuer is sought for vnto saluation all that is nowe fulfilled in the scriptures CHAMP Your ignorance or peruersitie in this place is intollerable For S. Chrisost speaketh of the institution of the newe testament whereby all thinges necessarie to saluation are fulfilled and not of the scriptures contayninge fullie all thinges necessarie to beleeued PILK Proofe 7. We adore the fulnes of scriptures lett Hermogenes shewe his opinion to be written if it be not written lett him feare the woe denounced to adders and detractours CHAMP Tertullian speaketh of the fulnes of the scripture in that one point whereupon he disputed with that heretike not in all other articles of faith as is manifest by the place it selfe which the iudicious reader may see and satisfy himselfe for here it cannot without tediousnes and ouer much prolixitie bee sett downe PILK Proofe 8. If anie shall preach either of Christ or his churche or of anie other thinge that pertayneth to beleefe or life I will not say if we but that which Paule addeth if an Angell from heauen shall shew vnto you besides that which you haue receiued in the scriptures of the lawe and the Gospell lett him be accursed That which hath a fulnes in it as Tertull. and Chris speake and contayneth in itt all thinges pertayninge to faith and manners as Cyrill and Aug. say that doth fullie prooue all articles of beleefe and life such is the scripture CHAMP S. Aug. wordes haue the sence and meaninge that S. Paules haue takinge beâ—iâ—es for against or contrarie to the scriptures as S. August explicateth himselfe
tract 98. in Ioh before mentioned Nowe your argument out of all these places is shewed to be vayne and of noe force by the particular answere to euerie authoritie And thus farr haue you brought nothinge more for the proofe of your position thē anie heretike in the worlde may or might haue brought for the proofe of his heresie For euerie heretike can bringe single places of scripture yea and of fathers in fauour of his heresie But to bringe scriptures interpreted by the fathers in fauour of theire heresie is a thinge if not impossible at least verie harde and rare beinge the priuiledge of the catholike churche alone PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The scriptures contayne in themselues a perfect doctrine of saith and good workes necessarie to saluation without testimonie authoritie or tradition of the churche addinge vnto them or bringinge from without them anie other doctrine CHAMP This position is the same in sence if either of them haue anie sence with the former and therefore vainlie is tearmed by you a second Antithesis vnlesse euerie tyme you write a position varyinge a fewe wordes in it but retayninge the same sence you will say it is a newe positiō But to lett this passe your proofes so farr as they make anie thinge against the catholike veritie are to be pondered PILK Proofe 1. 2. Tim. 3. 16. The whole scripture is diuinelie geuen and profitable for doctrine for reproofe for correction for instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfectlie instructed in euerie good worke That which perfecteth the man of God to euerie good worke contayneth perfect doctrine of faith and manners without addition of anie othèr but the scriptures do so Ergo. CHAMP It must needes be obstinacie in errour and not ignoraunce as I thinke that maketh you abuse this place For first you cannot be ignorant that the Apostle speaketh there of the scriptures of the olde testament wherewith S. Timothy was acquainted from his infancie which if you will say to contayne a perfect doctrine then is all the newe testament either superfluous or at the least not necessarie Secondlie the Apostle peaketh not of the whole scripture taken together but of euerie parte thereof seuerallie meaninge that euerie parte of scripture is proffitable to teach correct and instruct which is true but nothinge to your purpose And that he speaketh not of the whole scripture in the former sence but in the latter it is manifest For when he wrote this to Timothie the whole scripture which the church nowe hath was not written Lastlie lett it be sayd that he speaketh it of the whole scripture in the former sence yett he saith no more but that it is profitable to teache instruct c. which I easilie graunt you and yett I say your argument drawne from thence is most friuolous as appeareth by the like sett downe before in answere of this of yours wherunto I referre you PILK Proofe 2. Iohn 5. 35. Search the scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life Luke 16. 29. They haue Moises the prophetts lett thē heare them That which teacheth how we may come to eternall life and shunne or escape eternall death contayneth a perfect doctrine of faith and good workes But the scriptures doe soe ergo CHAMP Make your minor proposition this as it should be but the olde Testament doth soe for of the olde testament onlie these places speake as is manifest and your conclusion will serue directlie to exclude the whole newe testament from the perfect rule of faith Fye I am ashamed in your behalfe of such childishnes as you shewe in these arguments PILK Proofe 3. Acts 1. 1. The former treatise haue I made ô Theophilus of all that Iesus began to doe and teach These thinges that Christ did and taught contayne a perfect doctrine but these thinges are written CHAMP Conclude therefore the onlie ghospell of S. Luke contayneth a perfect doctrine Is this your intent noe but blinde malice against the euident truth draweth you into these grosse absurdities If you haue noe care of your soule haue yett for shame some care of your credit and reputation for the gayninge of which you haue trauelled these fower or fiue yeeres to bringe foorthe this miserable heape of vnshapen absurdities A miserable labour I wisse whereby you gaine nothinge but the reputation of an impertinent minister deuoyde of ordinarie iudgment To these fewe testimonies of scripture so miserablie mistaken you adde some passages of the fathers to as good purpose as you did in the former Antithesis These they are PILK Proofe 4. If you be the disciples of the gospell saith Athanasius speake not iniquitie against God but walke in those thinges which are written or donne For if you will speake diuers thinges from these thinges that are written why striue you with vs without them The scriptures are perfect as spoken from the worde of God and his spiritt CHAMP S. Athanasius speaketh of such thinges as are not onlie not directly in scriptures but are against and contrarie to scriptures S. Ireneus saith the scriptures beinge spoken by the spiritt of God are perfect as the thinges spoken by men are not which haue imperfections and therefore are subiect to corrections and amendments You abuse therefore your reader with an equiuocall tearme of perfect PILK Proofe 5. The order of this present tecture teacheth that we must nott adde anie thinge to the diuine precepts for if thou addest or detractest it is a preuarication of the precept Oftentymes when a witnes addeth anie thinge of his owne he spotteth the whole creditt of his testimonie with a lye nothinge therefore thoughe it seeme good must be added And a litle after if S. Iohn hath sayde of his writinge if anie man adde vnto these thinges God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are written in this booke and if anie man shall take away from the worde of this prophecie God shall take away his parte from the booke of life howe much more nothinge is to be added to godds precepts CHAMP That which is taught or commēded by the churche which the scripture commandeth vs to heare is not superadded to gods commandements or precepts but is comprised in them you therefore that will not heare and obey the churche which you are so expressely commaunded to heare euidentlie and damnablie detract from diuine precepts Therefore this authoritie is so farr from proouinge anie thinge to your purpose that it ouerthroweth it rather PILK Proofe 6. O Emperour doost thou demaunde what our faith is Heare it not out of newe papers but out of the bookes of God heare I pray thee the thinges that are written of Christ least vnder them those thinges that are not written should be preached Open thy eares to those thinges that shall speake out of the bookes lifte vppe thy faith vnto God I will not defend any thinge scandalous nor anie thinge that is from without the gospell
taught moe thinges by worde oâ— mouth then he wrote which was my Position it nowe belongeth to you either to graunt my position to be true or to prooue by scriptures that the rest of the Apostles wrote that which he taught by worde of mouth and omitted to write For to say it only without proofe yea and such as you require of your aduersarie is to make your owne affirmation à lawe and rule of your faith Which though it appeareth well to be so to your selfe yett will it not be admitted of others And if I should here againe presse you with your owne rule non eredimus quia non â—egâ—nous you would find ei 〈…〉 your rule too strickt or your assertion here that the other Apostles committed to writinge that which S. Iohn taughte by worde and omitted to write to be false Choose whether parte you will You see therfore that my reasoninge was not loose but that your iudgment thereon was light Your reason followinge is a miserable begginge of that which is in question and which you should prooue and is more easilie and trulie denyed then affirmed And for your better instruction I wish you to marke a litle more diligentlie the wordes of the Apostle and you will as I suppose perceiue the argument to be of more force then you tooke it to be of vnles you dissembled For he giuinge the reason why he would not vse paper and inke to make knowne vnto them to whome he wrote those thinges which he had to teache them he saith not that it is for that either he himselfe or anie of the other Apostles had or woulde sett them downe in writinge but because he hoped to be with them and to speake vnto them mouth to mouth Manuall Proofe 2. And the rest I will dispose when I come Where the Apostle euidently sheweth that he reserued something more to be ordayneth by worde then he wrote PILK This is litle to the purpose for the Apostle doth not there speake of matters of faith which is our question but of such things as belonge to order and comelines as it is playne by the word in greeke which properlie signifieth orderinge of rites and matters of decencie not teachinge of doctrines and matters of faith as appeareth 〈◊〉 the same epist cap. 16. 1. concerninge the gaâ—â—â—â—inge for the Saincts as I haue geuen order to the churches of Galatia euen so doe yee The rest saith Aquinas videlicet these thinges that are not of such danger will I dispose of when I come howe you shall obserue them But lett it be graunted that he meaneth doctrines and matters of faith it is an inference without coherence that because he writte them not then therefore he did omitte them for euer or because he wrot them not therefore the rest were silent and writte them not When you consider of these consequences then you may see that it is as farr from your purpose as Gades is from Ganges CHAMP Your second answere to this testimonie is effectuallie frustrated in my reply to your answere of the precedent testimonie and therefore needeth no further confutation Your former answere admittinge it in your owne sence doth expresselie graunt traditions in matters to be obserued and practised in the churche which seeinge they concerne the vse of the Sacraments and other holy obseruations to be kept by all Christians established and ordayned by the Apostles by the expresse commaundement of our Sauiour Christ Matt. 28. 20. I would knowe of you some reason why you deny the authoritie of traditions in thinges to be beleeued and graunt them in matters to be donne and obserued will you say that they are more fallible in the one then in the other To say this onlie without some ground or reason will haue small grace or force Manuall Proofe 3. The Apostles were commanded to teache all nations to obserue all thinges which our Sauiour had commaÌ„ded Which doubtles they fulfilled but they were not commanded in anie place to write all the same neither doth it appeare by anie scripture that they did write all thinges which they taught men to beleeue and obserue This is a demonstration that they taught more then they wrote if nothinge be to beleeued but that which is contayned in holy scripture PILK That Christe charged the Apostles to teach all nations whatsoeuer he commanded which they fulfilled also but he charged them no where to write all The fathers shall answere We knowe not the dispensinge of our saluation from anie where then from them by whome the gospell came to vs which then they preached and after by the will of God deliuered vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and piller of our saith S. Aug. saith that when the Euangelists and Apostles did write what God shewed and sayd we may not say that he writte it not for whatsoeuer he would haue vs to read either coÌ„cerninge his wordes or workes he commandeth them as his owne hands to write it If what the Apostles preached after they writte as Ireneus saith If what God commaunded them so to doe as S. August auoucheth Then it plainlie followeth that they writte as much as they preached and that not onlie by the allowance but by the commandment of our Sauiour Christ For they writte nothinge but that with which they were inspired Nowe inspiration is a commandement as Bellarmine confesseth CHAMP Stande to your grounde and doe not flinche from it you say nothinge is to be beleeued but that which is written If you will therefore that it should be beleeued that the Apostles wrot all things they taught shewe it written or acknowledge your ground to be false The scripture testifieth that the Aposties were commanded to teach all thinges necessarie to be obserued but that they were commaunded to write the same it no where appeareth If therefore they did it either they did it by Christs commaundement and then you must needes confesse something necessarie to be beleeued more then is written for it is no where written that he commaunded them to write all thinges they taught Or they did it without his commaundement And then it was not necessarie they shoulde doe it and consequentlie was it not necessarie there should be anie thinge written at all in the newe testament And thoughe they writte nothinge but that was inspired into them yea that they were inspired to write both which thinges you beleeue thoughe you finde neither of them written yett it no where appeareth that they were inspired to write all they had by inspiration You say the fathers shall answere for you but I receiue not theire answere as sufficient vnles you will stande to the fathers testimonie in all other points You promised scripture for all your positions performe therefore your promise or confesse your position of beleeuinge nothinge but that which is written to be false Notwithstandinge because the testimonie of the fathers is venerable with me I will not
writte that formerlie they had deliuered as Ireneus and August doe teach This beinge the true state of the question if the papists meane not these former secret matters that Bellarmine mentioneth and are not written his position is de non ente For that there is nothinge or faith nowe which the Apostles did not after they preached either finde or leaue in writinge vnto the churche and these beinge deliuered at first partely by liuelie voyce partely by letters were to be embraced with like acceptance and creditt But if he meane these secret doctrines deliuered a parte and only by worde neuer by them written then we denie that the Apostles left any such thinge equallie to be credited with the holy scriptures neither the allegations inferre anie such matter CHAMP You haue here multiplyed a greate heape of vnnecessarie wordes making the thinge obscure which of it selfe is cleare enough The question is not now as you say whether the Apostles taught not more by word of mouth whether in secret or in publicke that importeth not that hauinge been disputed before and prooued against you But of what authoritie the thinges deliuered only by worde of mouth are of which question you haue the beleefe of the catholicke churche sett downe directlie in the position of the Manuall and the proofe thereof out of expresse scripture whereunto lett vs heare your answere Manuall Proofe 1. Therefore brethren stand and holde the traditions which you haue learned whether it be by worde or by our Epistle S. Basill saith I account it Apostolike to continue firmelie in vnwritten traditions and alleageth this place of S. Paule S. Chrisost cited by fulke himselfe saith this Hereof it is manifest that they the Apostles deliuered not all by Epistles but manie things without letters and the one is of as great creditt as the other Therefore we thinke the traditions of the churche to be worthy of creditt it is tradition inquire noe more PILK To your first testimonie if I shoulde answere that S. Paule meaneth not he deliuered some thinges by writinge somethings by worde only but the very same by both first preachinge it and after writinge it would trouble you to prooue the contrarie For the disiunctiue whether argueth not diuersitie of thinges deliuered but diuers wayes of deliueringe the same as in other places Rom. 14. 8. whether we liue or whether we dye wee are the lordes it followeth not dying we are one and liuinge we are another 1. Cor. 5. 11. whether I or they so we preach and therefore Paule preached one gospell the Apostles another CHAMP You doe wiselie not to stand much vppon your newe inuention least to your owne companions you might become ridiculous neither though you should stande there vppon shoulde it putt me to much trouble to prooue the contrary vnles to establishe your noueltie you woulde thinke to inuert the common and vsuall manner of speakinge and vnderstandinge of all men For the disiunctiue whether doth alwayes signifie the diuersitie of the thinge ioyned with it as is manifest euen in your examples whether we liue or dye whether I or they but so as one and the same thinge is affirmed of them both so it is in our testimonie as also in these sayinges followinge retayne the goods you haue receiued whether in money or marchandise Keepe the present I sent you whether in Iewells or in plaie With fiue thousand moe And it is a ridiculous conceipt to thinke that the Apostle commended vnto his disciple the same thinges both written and preached in which sence his sayinge shoulde be no more disiunctiue but copulatiue in this manner hold those thinges which you haue learned both by worde and Epistle Which is not to interprett the Apostle but manifestly to corrupt him Seeinge therefore you dare not stand vppon this interpretation let vs heare your auowed answere PILK But I adde that if one vnderstand these thinges of diuerse pointes of Christian religion which S. Paule deliuered vnto the Thessalonâ—aÌ„s and writte them not it will not followe that other Apostles writte them not and still your thesis is de non ente this testimonie is to no purpose sith what point of doctrine Paule deliuered by voyce we finde recorded in the scriptures CHAMP It followeth right well that the other Apostles writte not these thinge which S. Paule deliuered onlie by worde if your rule be true non credimus quia non â—egimios For it is noe where written that they wrote those thinges therefore accordinge to your doctrine not to be beleeued Againe I hauinge prooued by expresse scripture interpreted by the fathers that the Apostle taught somethinge more then he wrote and commanded it to be beleeued equally with his writinge which is the position of the Manuall it behooueth you that maintayne the contrarie to prooue it by expresse scripture or else to confesse that the catholike doctrine hath better and more firme ground in the scripture then Protestantisme You prooue brauely my thesis to be de non enâ—e and the proofe thereof to be to no purpose by your ordinarie miserable absurde and ridiculous begginge of that which is in question supposinge that for true and graunted which is expresselie denyed But to such shameful shifts is falsitie worthely driuen Lett vs see the rest of your answere if it be anie better PILK The testimonie cited out of Basill is wrongfullie fathered on that worthy-Bishoppe and contradicteth that which he writeth in other places and are acknowledged on both sides to be his and namelie his sermon de fide where he saith that it is a manifest desection from faith to bringe in anie thinge that is not written Besides in this verie chapter mentioned by you he speakes of Meletus as a rare man that liued an dyed before his tyme as appeareth by diuers of his Epistles And if we creditt Baronius he dyed after Basill For Basill dyed 378. and Meletus 381. CHAMP Here indeede you goe roundlie to worke and like yourselfe for not knowinge howe to answere the authoritie you denie the author for two weighty reasons I wisse The first is a pretence of a contradiction which is as much a contradiction as to affirme Mr. Pilkinton to be a minister and a doctor For he affirminge it to be Apostolike to continue firmelie in vnwritten traditions saith it is infidelitie to adde any thinge to the scriptures that is contrarie vnto them The second is a weake coÌ„iecture that he liued after one Meletus who notwithstandinge is sayde to die after him PILK Chrisostome is the onlie man that seemeth to fauour your assertion but trulie vnderstood he helpeth it nothinge For he speaketh not of traditions that are not written at all but of such as are not written in so manie wordes And it is vsuall with the fathers to call them vnwritten traditions which are not verbatim sett downe in the scriptures and yett haue a true ground in them as formerlie I shewed out of S. Aug. who saith that
Apostles did so CHAMP This argument is all moste as wicked as the precedent For if it conclude anie thinge it prooueth the Apostles to haue preached nothinge but S. Iohns gospell And consequentlie all the rest of the newe testament either to be Apocripha or at least not to be anie way necessarie to saluation This man thou seest iudicious reader to be as little a friende to scripture as to traditions seeing to impugne the one he destroyeth the other Is this your sworde Mr. Minister wherewith you would pearce and wounde your aduersary no wise man I thinke but will say it was made to cutt your owne throate with rather then to drawe one droppe of blood of your aduersarie But you will bringe sharper weapons out of the fathers You should remember that the testimonies out of the fathers should be explications of the scriptures cited for the same purpose and not theire single sayinges But lett vs take them as they are PILK Proofe 4. We know not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from them by whome the ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered it vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP This authoritie hath been once or twice satisfied before and it saith not they wrote all they preached but the same doctrine which they preached they writt and not a diuerse or contrarie as some heretikes fabulouslie taught against whome S. Ireneus there writeth and this is the true meaninge of that place as anie one that looketh thereon will easilie see PILK Proofe 5. These thinges are chosen to be written which are sufficient for the saluation of the beleeuers CHAMP This is true and not against the catholike doctrine of traditions For he that beleeueth that which is written beleeueth sufficient for his saluation if he haue not repugnancie in his minde not to beleeue anie more PILK Proofe It is a manifest defection from faith and the crime of pride either for to refuse anie thinge of those that are written or to bringe in that which is not written as our Sauiour Iesus Christe saith my sheepe heare my voyce CHAMP It is an equall crimeÌ„ to denie that which is written and to bringe in anie thinge not written contrarie to that which is written as the Arrians did who made Christe to be a creature different in substance from his father contrarie to that which is written in manie places And this is S. Basills playne doctrine which is nothinge for your purpose nor against me PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The catholike churche ought not to beleeue these traditions which the papists say the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth onlie in the same degree of faith with these thinges that are written Proofe 1. Esay 8. 20. To the lawe and the testaments if they speake not accordinge to this worde it is because there is no light in them Argument That which speaketh not accordinge to the lawe and testimonie hath no truth and is not to be credited as the lawe But papists traditions are so CHAMP The answere to your argument shall be to returne it vppon you in this manner That which speaketh accordinge to the lawe and testimonie is true and is to be credited as the lawe it selfe But such are catholike traditions Ergo. PILK Proofe Gall. 1. 8. 9. But thoughe we or an Angell from heauen preach anie other gospell vnto you then that which we haue preached lett him be accursed as we sayd before so say I nowe againe if anie man preach anie other gospell vnto you then you haue receiued lett him be accursed Argument That which is not the same but another besides that which Paule preached is not to be credited but accursed But popish traditions are so CHAMP I must needes say that the catholike doctrine shoulde be verie weake indeede if it should be ouerthrowne with such lame and limpinge arguments that haue not so much as one good legge to stand vppon And what shall we say then of the protestants doctrine that is supported by such bean-strawe pillars Your maior were it true woulde conclude all the Apostles writinges besisides S. Paules to be accursed at leaste in all such thingeâ— as are not found in S. Paule Your minor may as easilie be affirmed of S. Iohns Gospell or anie other booke of the bible So that your conclusion is like to be verie protestanticall See therfore howe stronglie you haue prooued your protestant position or antithesis and consequentlie howe deepelie you haue wounded your aduersarie Euer so blinde may the enemies of gods churche be to impugne it in this manner so longe as they doe impugne it PILK Proofe 2. Petri. 1. 18. 19. And this voice which came from heauen we heard when we were with him in the holy Mount We haue also a more sure worde of prophecie whereunto you doe well that you take heede as vnto a light that shineth in a darke place vntill the day dawne and the day-starre arise in your harts Argument That which is more firme and sure then reuelation from heauen not then written is more to be credited then anie thinge nowe not written but the scriptures are such CHAMP Doe you thinke that the writinge of anie reuelation maketh it more firme or that it receiueth anie increase of authoritie thereby you seeme to be of this opinion but it is moste absurde to thinke For the authoritie all reuelations haue is from God almightie and not from the writinge of them in paper or parchment And therefore the prophecie S. Peter speaketh of whether it were written or vnwritten for he saith not it was written but rather the contrarie tearminge it a propheticall speach or sermon is sayde by him to be more firme then the testimonie receiued in the holy mount because that had been auncientlie promulgated credited and receiued whereas this had neuer yett bin preached or proposed to be beleeued and therefore no maruell though that were esteemed more firme then this hitherto hadd been not because this had not been written but because it had not been preached or published att all till that tyme. PILK Proofe Iohn 5. 36. 37. 38. 39. But I haue greater witnes then that of Iohn for the workes which the Father hath geuen me to finishe the same workes that I doe beare witnes of me that the Father hath sent me And the Father himselfe which hath sent me hath borne witnes of me Yee haue neither heard his voice at anie tyme nor seene his shape And yee haue not his worde abidingâ— in you for whome he sent him yee beleeue not Searche the scriptures for in them yee haue eternall life and they are they which testifie of me Argument That which is greater then the testimonie of Iohn is more to be credited then anâ—e thinge not written But the scriptures are greater then the testimonie of Iohn CHAMP The farther you goe the more foolishe and impertinent still you
are vppon what ground doe you assume in your minor But the holy scriptures are greater then â—he testimonie of Iohn not out of the texts of of scripture cited by you for they say no such thing They say that indeede of the workes of Christe and of his fathers testimonie which notwithstandinge were noe where then written but of the scripture they say no such thinge And therefore your argument is as fitlie founded vppon these text of scripture as those are which Pruritanu sett downe in the name of your felowes the author of which pamplett had he seene your booke might haue increased his not a little out of it As with this for example I have greater witnes then Iohn â—râ—â— ther are noe traditions or traditioÌ„s are not to be beleeued equallie with scriptures For amongst all his I knowe not whether there be one more impertinent then this But you will thinke to make some force out of the laste sentence search the scriptures c. but with as much probabilitie as out of the other For were it as you read For in them yee haue eternall life and not For in them you thinke to haue eternall life Which is the true texte yett haue you thence no other thing then that the old testament for of that onlie our Sauiour speaketh doth testifie of him Which how it either prooueth your Antithesis or improoueth my position iudge you by this consequence The old testament in which the Iewes thought to haue eternall life beareth witnes of our Sauiour Christ Ergo traditions are not of equall authoritie with scripture Doe doctors in Oxeforde vse to make such consequences if they doe I dare say it is the paine of sinne and heresie for the which they are depriued of the verie light of naturall reason and discourse PILK Proofe Whatsoeuer is confirmed by the authoritie of diuine scriptures which in the churche are called canonical is without al doubte to be beleeued But you may beleeue or not beleeue other witnesses or testimonies which men persuade you to beleeue as much as they deserue or not deserue to bee credited by the force yee finde in them CHAMP If you dare stand to this authoritie I will euidentlie prooue against you that you are to beleeue purgatory prayers for the dead the guaâ—de of Angells and diuers other thinges which you condemne in the catholikes For these thinges are euidentlie confirmed in those scriptures which the churche in S. August tyme did call canonicall as he witnesseth Further the bookes receiued by your selfe for canonicall doe confirme the authoritie of traditions as is playne out of the second Epistle to the Thessalo cited before Againe it is not onlie men but gods churche and consequentlie God himselfe by her that perswadeth vs to beleeue traditions and therefore this your argument is as foolishe as the rest PILK Proofe Abraham when he was desired to send Lazarus answered they haue Moises and the prophetts if they will not beleeue them nether will they heare the dead raysed vppe Christe bringeth him speakinge in a parable to shewe that he woulde haue more faith geuen to the scriptures then if the dead should reâ—iue Moreouer Paul and when I mention Paule I mean Christe for he knewe his minde preferreth scriptures before Angells that descend and that in great congruitie For an Angell thoughe verie greate yett are they seruants and ministers but all scriptures came vnto vs not from seruants but from God Lord of all Chrisostome in cap. 1. ad Gallatas CHAMP There is no end of your impertinencies and absurd parologismes Christ woulde haue more faith geuen to the scriptures then if the dead shoulde reuiue say you Ergo what Ergo Mr. Pilkinton knoweth not what he saith Certainlie this is the best consequence anie man can make of this testimonie as it is cited by him Againe S. Paule yea our Sauiour Christ preferre scriptures before angells that shoulde teach anie thinge against that which the Apostles had taught say you because the angells are ministers but the scriptures came to vs from God the Lord of all Ergo traditions are not to be beleeued equallie with scriptures A learned consequence I wisse and like the rest of your doctrine hauinge as much truth and connexion in it as hath this God is in heauen Ergo Mr. Pilkinton is a Roman Catholike Nowe looke backe I pray thee iudicious reader vpon the catholicke positions sett downe in the Manuall with the proofes thereof out of the scriptures and compare them with Mr. Pilkintons Antitheses and the proofes thereof and passe thy impartiall iudgment on them whether of them haue better grounde in holy scripture Thus farr I haue gone with your Parallel Mr. Pilkinton examininge the weight and truth thereof and in a fewe leaues haue founde so manie absurdities falsities and impertinencies that your whole booke seemeth to me to be no other thing then a deformed lumpe or masse of mouldinge past which maketh not anie resistance but is without all difficultie cutt in peeces pearced or thrust thoroughe euen with euerie wooden knife or other instrument For if I had no more difficultie to coppie and transcribe your wordes out of your booke into my paper that they might goe to the printe with my reply then I had to confute them you shoulde not haue been so manie dayes without your answere I goe no further with you in discussinge your doctrine because I will not bestowe good howers in such vnnecessarie and vnprofitable labour learninge of your selfe in the laste page of your booke that as to knowe the sea water to be salte it is not necessarie to drinke vppe the whole sea or to knowe an earthen statua guilded ouer not to be gold it is sufficient to scrape of one peece onlie of the guildinge So for anie man to discouer the absurditie and impertinencie of your booke it is not necessarie he shoulde goe thoroughe it whollie but it abundantlie sufficeth to haue examined one parte thereof onlie I would not lett it goe whollie without refutation least you shoulde haue interpreted my silence to haue proceeded from the difficultie there had been to confute your doctrine and least your lesse skilfull reader might thinke you had sayd something to the purpose in answere of the catholike doctrine or proofe of your owne I woulde not goe anie further in mine answer for the reason alreadie sett downe out of your owne wordes If you please to lay downe your wilfulnes to defend your errours and with some in differencie to consider the sinceritie of the catholike truthe I make no doubte but by this litle which hath been sayde in reply to your answere you will see the vanitie of your doctrine deliuered in this booke of yours But if you persiste in your obstinate will not to geue eare to the truth you may well be vanquished and ouercome as S. Hierome saith but you will neuer be perswaded Neither is my paynes herein bestowed so much out of hope to