these lawes I will declare in a T. C. triumpheth before the victoris more speciall place In the meane time you blow the triumph before the victorie for as yet you haue not proued that the scripture doth appoint any certaine kind eyther of ciuill punishment or Church discipline for such as contemne or neglecte the comming to publike prayers and hearing of the word of God You say that there are other punishments for such as neglect the word of God c. but you neither tell vs what they be nor where to find them Chapter 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 16. Sect. 1. line 3. I omit that there be examples of Pulpits in Esdras of chaires in the. 23. of Math. whereby the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching of sitting at the Communion whiche the Euangelist noteth to haue bin done of our fauioure Christ with his disciples whiche examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions Io. Whitgifte Examples of Pulpits you say we find in Esdras True it is that in the. 8. of Nehem. we reade Esdras stoode vpon a Pulpit of wood which he had made for the preaching but the same was placed in the open stréete neyther did Esdras any thing but reade The other persons with the Leuites mentioned vers 7. of that Chap. did cause the people to vnderstand the law that is made them giue diligent eare to the reading of the law And although there be words in the. 8. verse which as they be translated séeme to insinuate some kinde of interpretation yet the meaning is nothing so for these be the words Et apposuerunt intellectum intellexerunt scripturam illam that is as learned men do interprete it aduerterunt animum they were attentiue to the reading or Nebem 8. as some translate it Et legerunt in libro legis Dei distinctè appositè ad intelligendum intellexerunt cum legeretur And they read in the booke of the law of God distinctly and in such sort as they might easily vnderstand Hereof may I much better gather that reading is preaching than you can do that the scripture appointeth Pulpits For though Esdras did so is it therefore by and by a rule to be followed You reade not of any of the Apostles that did in like manner neither is there any mention made of Pulpits from the beginning of the new testament to the end of the same And this place maketh rather for Pulpits to reade in than for Pulpits to preach in It is most certaine that by the chaire of Moses in that place is ment the doctrine of Moses whether it declare any place or no made for Moses to teach the people in that is but coniecturall neyther haue we any example expressed either in Moses himselfe or in any other that may resolue that doubt Howsoeuer it is the matter is not great For things vsed in the old Church do not prescribe any rule to the Church of Christe vnlesse it can be shewed Christe himselfe and his Apostles to haue vsed the same My meaning is that in the whole scripture there is neither Pulpit nor chaire prescribed to be vsed in the Church of Christe but that and such other like things left to the disposition of the Church as shall be thought most conuenient from time to time What though Christ sat at his last supper doth it therefore follow that of necessitie we must néedes sit why must we not then as well be bound to receiue the same after supper I say agayne that the scripture dothe no where prescribe whither we shall sit stand or knéele at the communion if it do prescribe sitting why do some of you vse walking othersome standing whiche both do more differ from sitting than knéeling doth Chap. 1. The eight Diuision T. C. Page 16. Sect. 2. 3. But this I cannot omit that you make it an indifferent thing to preach the worde of God in Churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue than of your owne words which saith by and by after of Baptisme that it is (a) An vntruth for there is no such thing said at the order of the Church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the Church to order that Baptis e may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in hir power to ordayne that the word be preached also priuately And then where is that whiche Salomon saith that (b) A place of scripture strāge lv applied wisedome crieth openly and in the streates and at the corners of the streates where many ieete and where be the examples of the old Church which had besides the Temple at Ierusalem erected vp Sinagogues in euery towne to heare the word of God minister the circumcisiō (c) These places proue that the word ought to be preached publikely but not onely publikely what is become of the commaundement of our sauioure Christ whiche willed his disciples that they should preach openly and vpon the house topps that which they hard in the eare of him and secretly and how do we obserue the example of our sauioure Christ who to deliuer his doctrine from all suspicion of tumults and other disorders sayd that he preached openly in the temple and in the Sinagogues albeit the same were very daungerous vnto him and the example of the Apostles that did the sa ie for as for the time of persecution when the Church dare not nor it is not meete that it should shew it selfe to the enimie no not then is the word of God nor the sacramentes priuately preached or ministred nor ought to be For although they be done in the house of a priuate man yet bycause they are and ought to be ministred in the presence of the congregation there is neither priuate preaching nor priuate baptisme For like as wheresoeuer the Queenes maiestie lyeth there is the Court although it be in a gentleman his house so wheresoeuer the Church meeteth it is not to be holden priuate as touching the prayers preachings and sacraments that shall be there ministred so that I denie vnto you that the Chnrch hathe power to ordeyne at hir pleasure whither preaching or ministring of Sacraments should be priuate or publike when they ought not to be but where the Church is and the Church (d) This is only said but not proued ought not to assemble if it be not letteed by persecution but in open places and when it is driuen from them those places where it gathereth itselfe togither although they be otherwise priuate yet are they for the time that the Churches do there assemble and for respect of the word and sacraments that are there ministred in the presence of the Churche publike places And so you see those whome you charge slanderously with
conuiuticles are fayne to glase vp the windowes that you open to secret and priuate conuenticles Io. Whitgifte But this you cannot omitte that I make it an indifferent thing to preach the worde of God in Churches or in houses c. it is an argument that you lacke good matter when you make such excursions from the purpose My words be that the scriptures speake not one worde of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses too heare the word of God of baptising in fonts in basons or riuets openly or priuately at home or in the Church c. If I haue said vntruly conuince me with scripture and shew me those places where these things be determined Where do I say that these things be now indifferent to haue the word preached is not indifferent but necessarie to haue it preached in this place or in that place in Churches in fieldes or in houses is indifferent vntill suche time as the Churche Things indifferent lose the nature of iudifferencie when they are commaunded hath otherwise determined So is it likewise in baptisme the sacrament is necessary the circumstances of time and place c. be committed to the disposition of the Churche and remayne so long indifferent vntill the Churche hathe taken order in them which being done then they be no more indifferente Do you not know that wherevnto so many Churches reformed and learned men haue of late subscribed it is the. 6. assertion Res alioqui per se mediae mutant quodammodò natur m. c. Things otherwise Theses eccles Belgio art 6. indifferente of themselues after a sorte change their nature when by some lawfull commaundemente they are either commaunded or forbidden bycause neyther then can be omitted contrary to the commaundement if they are once commaunded neyther done contrary to prohibition if they be prohibited as it appeareth in the ceremoniall law The place is not of the substance either of the word or of the sacraments but yet to contemne or willingly to breake the order appointed by the Church in such matters is sinne You say that I affirme it to be at the order of the Churche to make baptisme priuate or publike Surely you do me greate iniurie and win your selfe small credite by thys T. C. peruerteth y e words of the Answer kind of dealing Is it all one to say that the scripture hath not determined whether baptisme should be ministred opēly or priuately at home or in the Church and to say that the Church may make baptisme priuate or publike For hereby you would giue your readers to vnderstand that I thinke it in the power of the Church to appoint that there should be no publike baptisme wherin as I said you do me greate iniurie My words therefore and meaning tend to this end that the scripture hathe not any where expressed when baptisme should be celebrated publikely when priuately but hathe left that to the determination of the Church to do therin according to the circumstances of time person c. Neither do I call baptisme priuate in any other Baptisme is called pr ce in respec of the place respect than of the place and therefore my meaning is that the scripture hathe not determined where or when we should baptise at home in priuate families or in publike and open places as fields Churches c. For we haue examples in scripture both of baptising in houses and of baptising in fields Act. 8. 9. 10. 26. Therefore touching the place the scripture hath not determined any thing and in the respect of the place I call it publike or priuate although I sée nothing in the scripture to the cōtrary but vpon necessarie occasion and other circumstances it may be priuate in the respect of persons that be presente at the celebrating of baptisme for the number of standers by or of such as are to be baptised is not of the substance of the sacramente therefore in that also the Church may take order and hath therein to deale And as I thinke that in such respects baptisme may be priuately administred so The worde may be preached priuately both in r pect of the place and persons thinke I also that in the like respects the word may be priuately preached Neyther did the Apostles only preache in the Sinagogues and in open places but in priuate families and houses also as it is manifest Act. 5. Where it is said that the Apostles did not cease daily to teach and to preach Iesus Christ in the temple and house by house Act. Act. 5. 10. Peter preached in Cornelius his house Acts. 16. Paule preached in prison And Act. 10. not only was the word preached priuately in respect of the place ▪ but sometimes also Act. 6. in the respect of the persons as Christe preached to the woman of Samaria alone Io 4. Io. 4. And Philip in the chariot to the Eunuch Act. 8. Act. 8. Your scriptures brought in to proue that there may be no priuate preaching are very farre fetched and some of them very straungely applied That which Salomon saith Prouerb 8. proueth that God calleth all men by his word and by his works to follow that which is good and flye from that which is euill And I thinke that the meaning of Salomon in that place is that God dothe offer his worde to all persons in all places so that there can be no ignorance pretended But I pray you how doth this argument follow the worde of God is offered to all and openly proclaymed Ergo it may not be also priuately taught all your proofes and examples that follow be of like effect they proue that the word of God ought publikely to be preached but they do not take away priuate exhortations and preachings It is true that both Christe and his Apostles taught in Smagogues so it is true also that they taught in priuate families as I haue declared but yet I say the scripture hathe not appointed any certaine place of preaching For Esdras red the law in the streates Nehem. 8. wisedome crieth in the topps Nehem. 8. of the high places by the way side in the pathes in the gates before the Citie Pro. 8. Christ Pro. 8. preached in the Mountaine Math. 5. in the Sinagogue Math. 4. the Apostles in the Math. 5. temple and in priuate families do not you therfore sée that there is no determinatiōof Math. 4. any place wherefore the aptnesse of the place and the conueniencie of it likewise Act. 5. when the word is to be preached publikely when priuately is left to the iudgement and ordering of the Church And therefore it is true that I haue set downe that the scripture hath not dermined any thing of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the worde of God or of preaching in Pulpits chaires or otherwise There are and may be occasions euen in the time of prosperitie when bothe the word may be preached and the
them not morall They called that first part properly by that name moral without the which the true holynesse of maners and the immutable rule of liuing could not well consist And agayne The law of God forbiddeth to steale what punishment was appoynted for thefte in the pollicie of the Iewes appeareth ▪ in Exod. The moste auncient lawes of other nations Exod. 22. punished theft with double they which followed afterwarde made a difference betwixte open theft and that which was secret others condemned the theeues with exile banishment others adiudged them to be whipped and last of all others to be put to death False witnesse amongst the Iewes was punished with equal payne in respect of the hurt in other places onely with infamie in other places with hanging c. All lawes ioyntly do reuenge murder with bloud but yet with diuers kindes of death In some places there are greeuouser paynes appoynted for adulterers in other places those which are more easie yet we see how they al by this diuersitie of punishment tende to one ende for they al with one consent do giue sentence of punishment agaynst those offences which are condemned by the eternall law of God to wit murder theft ad ltrie false witnesse but they agree not all in the maner of the punishment Neyther truly is it necessarie or expedient that they shoulde agree herein ☞ There is a countrey which should out of hande be destroyed with theeues and slaughter if it did not with horrible example deale very sharpely with murderers There is a so some time which requireth the augmentation of the sharpnesse of punishment and some people very prone vnto some certayne sinne except they be with great rigour kepte in awe He is then very euill affected and enuieth the publike commoditie that is offended with thys diuersitie which is most meete to reteyne the obseruatiō of the law of God For that which some men obiect that by this meanes iniurie is done to the lawe of God whiles it beeing abrogated other lawes are preferred before it is most vaine For other lawes are not preferred before it but allowed not by any simple comparison in respect of Gods law but according to the condition of time place and nation neither can that be sayde to be abrogated ☞ which was neuer prescribed vnto vs for God deliuered it by the handes of Moses not for all natiōs but particularly for the Iewes c. M. Beza likewise in his booke de haer Magist. puniend of this matter writeth thus VVe acknowledge those politike lawes to be prescribed Beza onely to the countrey of the Iewes neither are we so vnskilfull that we woulde haue Moses common wealth or gouernment called backe agayne as though it were not lawfull for euery Magistrate within his owne dominion to make lawes in ciuill matters And a little after The Iudiciall lawes were framed only for one nation Therefore seeing they were neuer written for vs they can not be sayd to be abrogated And agayne Onely the Israelites were bound to the Iudiciall lawes that is those that dwell in Iurie bicause they were made fit for that common wealth onely And after that he hath shewed by an example of the lawe for theft that that maner kinde of punishment did onely binde the Israelites that other Magistrates in their countreys for good causes maye appoynt a sharper kinde of punishment for the same he cōcludeth thus Lex enim illa Mosis Idem quatenùs poenae modū praescribit alijs gentibus neque vnquā fuit posita neque nūc est propriè abrogata That lawe of Moses in so muche as it prescribeth the maner of punishment was neyther ☜ at any time giuen to other nations neither is it now properly abrogated So that now they that be disposed may perceyue howe this doctrine of yours not onely tendeth to the ouerthrowing of states of cōmon wealthes but is contrarie also to the truth and opinion of learned men and those especially of whome you your selfe make greatest accompt Therefore it is true that I haue sayde in my answere to the Admonition that is The Iudicial law to be left to the discretion of the Magistrate to adde to it or to take from it or to alter and chaunge it as shall be thought most fit for the time manner of the countrey and condition of the people as M. Caluin also very aptly noteth in the very ende of that 15. section before rehearsed Chap. 6. the 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 31. Lin. 21 ▪ So hath he lefte authoritie vnto his Churche to make lawes and appoynt orders ceremonies as shall from time to time be thought most expedient and profitable for the same so that nothing be done contrarie to his worde or repugnant to the same And this authoritie hath the Churche vsed euen from the Apostles time as it is manifest both by the scriptures Act. 6. Act. 15. 1. Cor. 11. other ecclesiasticall stories and auncient fathers as is before by me proued Iohn Whitgifte To this nothing is answered Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 31. Sect. 1. But to come to the wordes of Deuteronomie them selues what is it to adde to the worde of God or to take from it Truely to thinke otherwise or teache otherwise of God than he hathe in his worde reuealed Those take from the worde that beleeue lesse than in the worde is expressed those adde to the worde fyrste whiche teache or decree any thing eyther in matters of faythe or ceremonies contrarie to the worde Secondly those that make any thing necessarie vnto saluation not conteyned in the worde Thirdly such as make any religion or opiniō of merite in any thing that they themselues haue inuented besides the worde of God Last of all they adde to the word which forbid that for a thing of it selfe vnlawfull which Gods worde doth not forbid and make that sinne which Gods word doth not make sinne But such as truly sincerely imbrace the worde of God and admit nothing contrarie vnto it if in gouernment ceremonies without any wicked superstitious opinion they appoynt or retayne such as they know not to be agaynst the worde of God and profitable for the present state of the Church can not truly be sayd to adde any thing to the worde of God or take any thing from it though the same be not expressed in the worde T. C. Pag. 22. Sect. 3. After you define what it is to take from and put to the word of God wherin not to speake of your wonderfull * There is no great dexteritie required to performe this dexteritie in defining which can define two thinges and those contrarie putting to and taking fro with one difference which Zeno him self could neuer do you leaue out that which Moses especially ment to comprehende which is not to do more nor to do lesse than he hathe commanded And as for your diuision
of the. 2. to the Corinthians the eyght chapter In the. 14. of the Actes verse 23. for the whiche you haue quoted the. 13. it is thus written When they that is Paule and Barnabas had ordeyned them elders by election for so is some translation in euery Church and prayed and fasted c. The texte is playne that Paule and Barnabas did ordeyne them Elders T. C. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Unto these places of the first and sixte of the Actes is added firste the place of the fourtenth of the Actes where the authors of the Admonition doe proue that the election ought not to be in one man his hande but ought to be made by the Churche agaynst which master Doctor taketh three exceptions The first is for that it is sayde that Paule and Barnabas ordeined Elders whereby he woulde conclude that the congregations had nothing to doe But howe slender a reason that is it may be considered of infinite places in the Scripture whereof I will recite two or three In the fifthe Chapter of Iosua it is sayde that Iosua made him sharpe knyues for the circumcising of the children of Israell and a little afterwardes that Iosua circumcised them Shall we now vpon these words conclude y t Iosua dyd make the kniues himselfe or was a Cutler or beeing made to his hande did whette them and sharpen them or shall we saye that he dyd circumcise the children of Israell in his owne person and himselfe alone when as that was done by many and by the Leuites to whome that offyce apperteyned No but the Scripture declareth that Iosua procured sharpe knyues to be made and exhorted and commaunded the people to be circumcised In the eyghtenth of Exodus it is sayde that Moses dyd appoynt vnto the people Princes Captaynes ouer thousandes and hundrethes c. And if any conciude therevpon that he dyd it 1. Chap. verse 15. himselfe alone he is by and by confuted by that whiche is written in Deuteronomie where it appeareth that the people dyd choose them and presented them to Moses What is it then that is sayde in Erodus that Moses appoynted them but that Moses assembled the people and exhorted them to appoynt rulers and tolde them what maner of men they shoulde be and in a worde sate as it were moderatour in that election To come to the newe Testament In the Actes it is sayde that Paule and Timothie deliuered Act. 16. vnto the Churches the orders and decrees of the Apostles and Elders and yet it appeareth in another place that the Churche had also to doe and gaue their consent vnto the making Act. 15. verse 23. of those decrees so that the former place meaneth that the Apostles and Elders dyd go before and were the chiefe and directors of that action The same maner of speache is vsed of the * You say so but you shewe not one Romane stories wherein it is sayde that the Counsell dyd make Magistrates for because that he gathered the assembly and voyces whereby they were made and so S. Luke saythe heere that Paule and Barnabas ordeyned bicause they beeing the moderators of the election caused it to be made assembled the Churches tolde them of the necessitie of hauing good pastors and gouernoures gathered the voyces tooke heede that nothing should be done lightly nothing tumultuously or out of order And so to conclude it is an euill reason to say as M. Doctor dothe that bicause S. Luke hath that Paule and Barnabas ordeyned therefore the people were excluded Io. Whitgifte If the reason groūded vpon the playne words of the scripture be but a slender reason then do I confesse that to be so likewise Howbeit very godly and learned men thinke it a reason sufficient Zuinglius in his Eccless sayth that some were called elected Zuinglius Bullinger to the ministerie of the worde by the Apostles onely Bullinger in his thirde booke aduersus Anabap. Cap. 4. sayth thus Paulus Barnabas presbyteros seu ministros elege unt in ecclesijs Asiae Paule and Barnabas did choose Elders or Ministers in the Churches of Asia Those places of Scripture that you recite may proue that there are suche maner of speaches in the scripture but they proue not that this is suche and therefore you haue in vayne rehearsed them The example of Iosua is farre from prouyng thys phrase to bée suche sor you affirme that Iosua is sayde to make sharpe knyues and to Circumcic onelye bycause hcc procured sharpe knyues to bee made and commaunded the people to bee circumcided and not bycause hee hym selfe bydde sharpen the knyues or circumcyde in hys owne person But it is certaine that Paule and Barnabas had to doe in this action and didde themselues in theyr owne persons ordeyne ministers and not commaunde others to ordeyne them Wherefore the manner of speache can not bée lyke excepte you will expounde thys place thus Paule and Barnabas ordeyned them Elders that is commaunded the people to choose them Elders whyche interpretation were straunge for thys place and vnhearde of beefore That in the syrste of Deuteronomie dothe not directely proue that Moyses alone didde not appoynte those Magistrates for althoughe he wylled the people to bryng vnto him menne of wysedome and of vnderstandyng c. yet it followeth not that they didde so but it rather appeareth that they commytted the choyse of them wholly to hym for after in the fyftéenth verse of the same Chapter he sayeth So I tooke the chiefe of youre tribes wyse and knowne men and made Deu. 1. Ver. 15. them rulers c. Manyfest it is that whether the people named any vnto hym or no he appoynted them and gaue them theyr authoritie so that the maner of speache is proper and without any trope or figure But doe you not still secretly pushe at the authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate T. C. vnder an other pretence pusheth at the ciuill Magistrate vnder the pretence of speakyng agaynst the state Ecclesiasticall For howesoeuer you woulde séeme to bryng in the place in the eightéenth of Exodus to proue the phrase and manner of speaking yet maye you bée thoughte secretely to insinuate that Princes maye not appoynte vnder-officers without the Election of the people And surely if your dealing in this place bée well marked it may easily be séene that in reasonyng agaynst the gouernemente of the Churche you laye the groundes of confoundyng or at the leaste of chaungyng the state of the Common wealth In the fiftéenth of the Actes ver 22. and. 23. there appeareth that the whole Churche together wyth the Apostles and Elders didde sende certayne chosen menne of theyr owne companye to Antiochia wyth Paule and Barnabas c. and wrote Letters by them conteynyng these Decrées wherevnto though the people subscribed and gaue theyr consente yet it followeth not but that the Apostles and Elders made them As it also appeareth verse 2. and. 6. of the same chapter
to no other as the diligent reader may easily perceiue But howsoeuer the words of Cyprian sound certayne it is that neyther that in the. 20. of Numeri nor this in the. 1. of the Acts can proue any election made by the people Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Lin. 1. No certayne forme of electing ministers commaunded in the scriptures But I saye that in the whole scripture there is no commaundement that it should so be nor any example that maketh therein any necessary or generall rule but that it may be altered as time and occasion serueth For in suche matters not commaunded or prohibited in scripture touching ceremonies discipline and gouernmente the Churche hathe authoritie from time to time to appointe that whiche is most conuenient for the presente state as I haue before declared T. C. Page 32. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. But you saye these examples are no generall rules (*) It will fal out that you haue neyther examples of all Apostles nor of all Churches nor of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 times Examples of all the Apostles in all Churches and in all purer times vncontrolled and vnretracted either by any the rimitiue and purer Churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stande If it were a priuate example of one or in one place alone or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture then the example were not always safe to follow But what if there be commaundement also ▪ In the (a) You are driu to a streight when you are glad to serch a mandatum out of the ceremoniall law eight of the booke of numbers the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites whiche preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be broughte before the Lord and before the people the people should lay their handes vpon the Leuits heads whiche what other thinge is it than to declare their liking of them and by that ceremonie to consecrate them and set them apart for that vse of their ministerie And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands I graunt you but so he speaketh bycause the approbation was by all and some in the name of the rest declared that by their laying on of hands But me thinketh I here your old answer that this perteyneth not vnto vs being a thing done vnder the law But take heede what you say for if you will admitte neyther the generall examples of the new testament nor the commaundements and examples of the old take heede that you do not or euer you be aware spoyle vs of the chiefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion and bring vs (b) Not so but you seeme to bring vs to plai udaisme to playne Catabaptistrie which you say you are so afraid of For to proue the baptisme of children and yong infants what stronger hold haue we than that God commaunded in the old Testament that they should be circumcised and examples thereof in the new Testament for that the Apostles baptised whole families where by al likelyhoode there were children Now we say that there is this commaundement in the old Testament of the ministers and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and throughout why shoulde it not then be necessarie in this as well as in the other Besides that in the (c) This is a silly place to proue 〈◊〉 generall commaundement 6. of the Acts the Apostles commaund that the Church shoulde seeke them out Deacons whome they might appoynt ouer the poore Touching certayne Ceremonies I haue shewed that they are necessary as namely the sacramentes And as for discipline and gouernmente I haue shewed partly and more heereafter will be shewed that they are of the substance of the Gospell if to haue excommunication be to haue discipline or if to haue pastors or Byshops and Doctors and Deacons be gouernmente of the Church Io. Whitgifte You do still petere principium and build vpon a false grounde for I denie that you haue examples either of all or of any of the Apostles or that this kind of election hath bin in all Churches in al purer times c. and albeit for the proofe of this sufficiēt is said before yet will I adde something now also All the places of scriptures that you haue The diuersitie of electiōs in the Apostles time hither to alleadged are Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. and. 2. Cor. 8. whiche places neither agrée in persons that were to be chosen nor in the manner and forme of choosing For the first of the Acts is of an Apostle the. 6. of Deacons the. 14. of Byshops and the. 2. Cor. 8. of such as were ioyned with Paule for the collecting and distributing of Almes Al men do graunt that the calling and electing of an Apostle is immediatly from God and therefore dothe differ from all other elections of Pastors Deacons c. But to let thys passe I pray you consider the diuers manner and forme vsed in all these places In the firste of the Acts Péeter made an exhortation to the disciples he appoynted out of what company the newe Apostle shoulde be taken the Apostles presented two after prayers made lots were giuen foorth and the Apostle was chosen by lot and not by voice but immediatly taken and reputed with the eleuen Apostles In the. 6. of the Acts the twelue Apostles willed the whole multitude to looke out seuen men of honest report c. to be Deacons and the whole multitude did choose seuen and presented them to the Apostles and the Apostles prayed layed theyr hands on them In the. 14. of the Acts Paule and Barnabas ordeyned ministers in euery Churche with praying and fasting In the seconde Corinth eyghte At Paules request the Churches appoynte certayne to bée collectours for the poore Saynctes with hym whyche of all these examples woulde you followe will you name them to the people or shall the people name them too you Will you haue two put vp togyther and one of them chosen by lotte Or will you haue the whole people for to choose and you to lay on handes or will you only haue the Bishops to choose to bée short will you pray only at the election or will you both pray and fast or haue you any commission to make a mixture of all those examples and so to make one rule where vnto all Churches at all times must of necessitie be bound I told you before that M. Caluine saith plainly that out of that example in the first of the Acts no certaine rule can be gathered of electing and choosing of ministers and M. Beza li. confess ca. 5. is as plaine that there can be no certaine rule gathered out of the Beza 6. of the Acts or out of that in the first his words be these In the election of Matthias lottes were cast but for a peculiar cause
44. Sect. 2. Fyrst bicause in the Apostles tyme the Churche was vnder the crosse and therefore very fewe in comparison was there that embraced the Gospell and commonly they kept togither or at the least met oftentimes so that one of them was throughly knowne to another and they them selues could best iudge who among them was the fittest to teache and instructe hauing alwayes diuers fit for that function Nowe the Churche is in prosperitie and therefore the number that professeth great and dispersed into diuers places and in moste parishes not one fitte for the ministerie among them or knowne vnto them so that they should call they knowe not whome T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 4. You say it was in the Apostles times vnder the crosse and therfore fewe and so mighte easily knowe one an other who were fit for the ministerie But you forget your selfe maruellously For in the Apostles tymes the Churche I meane visible and sensible for else howe coulde it be persecuted was (1) It is not so much to haue the Gospell sowen in many places as to haue it generally receyued in a fewe sowen not onely throughout all Asia whiche is the greatest parte of the world but throughe a great parte of Affrica and no small portion of Europe and now it is shut in a smal corner of Europe beeing altogither banished out of Asia Affrica And therfore there are not the (2) There be many mo Christians in profession nowe thā were at that time For though the Gospell was then dispersed in many places yet was it professed but of fewe persons tithe nowe of thosethat professed the Gospell then and what a conclusion is this the Church were fewe in number because they were vnder the crosse For to let passe both other scriptures and stories ecclesiasticall haue you forgotten that which is sayde in the first of Exodus that the more the children of Israell were pressed and persecuted the more they multiplied Then you saye they kepte togither and met often and so knowing one another were best able to iudge one of another But heerein you speake as one that hath small experience of persecuted Churches for in the time of persecution the Christians that were in one great citie were fayne to gather them selues out of all the corners and from all the endes of the citie to one place beeing not able to deuide themselues into many parishes both for other considerations and because they were not able to maynteine many ministers and Elders and Deacons so that we reade that the Churche which was at Antioche wrote vnto the Churche at Ierusalem and that of Ierusalem vnto them of Antioche and S. Paule to the Churche at Rome at Ephesus and at Philippos c. Which speeches do declare that by al likelyhood in one great citie they had but (3) This proueth that there were but fewe Christians in those cities in respecte of the rest that were not Christians one congregation and therefore that muste needes be scattered heere and there and so could not haue the commoditie either of often meeting or of knowing one an other so wel as where suche a citie is deuided into many Churches Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the tyme of persecution do well vnderstande that euery Churche almost was gathered of townes whereof some were sixe miles some seauen some more from the place of meeting and keeping their congregations And therfore could not meete so often nor knowe one an other so well as we by the grace of God may do which meete oftener and in lesse number than they do Io. Whitgifte I remember my selfe very well and I also remember that no learned writer olde The multitude of Christians is nowe greater or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue sayde you onely saye that in the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not onely throughout all Asia which is the greatest part of the world but a great part of Affrica and no smal portion of Europe you proue it not either by Scripture storie or anye good writer The Gospell I graunte was preached in all these partes of the world yet was it not generally receyued in any one part of the world no not in any citie not at Ierusalem where all the Apostles were not in any the least towne There were Christians at Ierusalem at Antioche at Ephesus at Rome c. But not the tenth part in any of these or other places in comparison to the Iewes and the Gentils that were there and not Christians In the Apostles time the visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in cōparison to the times that followed when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ and had Christian Magistrats I speake not of the dispersing of the Gospell into diuers places which I know was in the Apostles time for that commaundement had they of Christ that they should goe into the whole world c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians Mar. 16 gathered togither in one place In the Apostles time as I sayd before no one country or kingdome no one citie no one towne did wholy professe Christ or for the most part now whole kingdomes whole countries whole nations professe him When Matthias was chosen the whole Church was gathered together in one place And so was it when the Deacons were chosen Which thing now is vnpossible bycause of the multitude so that thoughe the election mighte be by the whole Church in the Apostles time when it was together in one place yet can it not be so now séeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to conteine it It might wel be that the people in euery citie might méete in one place without confusion or tumult in the Apostles time when as scarce the. xx part of the citie were Christians but it cannot be so now when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of the multitude of Comparison made in respect of the multitude in one place no dispersed Christians gathered togither in one place not of the multitude dispersed throughout the whole worlde though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians then dispersed through the whole world is comparable to the number of Christians which at this day be in Europe Now few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed beyng aboue 40. yeares after Christ Doth not Eusebius Lib. 3. cap. 5. testifie that they all were receiued into a little towne called Pella and yet the Apostles had spent muche time and labour in preaching there but the number of such as did not professe Christ was infinite in that citie at that time if we beléeue histories and especially Iosephus de bello Iuda Lib. 7. cap. 17. wherfore your opinion of the multitude of Christians in the Apostles time in comparison to those that be now is but a very dreame It is a very good reason to say that
dead with this condition if they be worthy and the people choose them the Byshop of the citie of Alexandria togither giuing his consent and appoynting him Io. Whitgifte The Councell in that epistle first declareth what was done with Arius then what became of Melitius how he was deposed from his Bishoprike and yet suffered to remayne in his owne citie but to haue no authoritie of choosing or ordeyning ministers either in the prouince or in any other citie After it sheweth that such as were ordeyned and made ministers or promoted by him shoulde kéepe their ministerie and honoure but not haue any authoritie in elections or in preferring of any to any degrée The. li. cap. 9. of ministerie wherevpon it by and by followeth qui verò Dei gratia c. but those that by the grace of God and your prayers haue not bin factious and scismaticall but kept themselues vndefyled in the Catholike and Apostolike Church it is meete that they should haue authoritie and power both to choose any man and to giue their names whiche are worthy to be of the Cleargy And to do all things according to the lawes and decrees of the Church Their meaning is euident that suche only of the Cleargy shoulde haue to do in electing or preferring any to the ministerie whiche haue not bin schismaticall and factious in the time of heresie for these words of the Councel are not spokē of the people but of the Cleargie as the circumstance of the place doth declare which thing Iacobus Grinaeus noteth in the margēt in these words Iura Clericorum qui ortbodoxi manserunt That which followeth and if it happen any to dye in the Church c. dothe argue that the people had a consent in those Churches according to the orders whereof the Councel would haue them to procéede but it maketh no new law for it neyther doth it decrée any thing as concerning it And it is euident that their order herein was not generall but particular to those Churches for it followeth after in the same epistle This order was peculiar to Egypt and Alexandria Haec propriè peculiariter ad Aegyptum atque sanctissimam Alexandrinam ecclesiam pertinent So that it is manifest that the meaning of the Councel was not to bind all Churches to this order But al this laboure of yours is lost for you go about to proue that which no man denieth Chap. 6. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 4. Another of the famousest councels called the Councel of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius y e great as it is witnessed by the Tripartite story in an epistle which it wrote Lib. 9. cap. 19. to Damasus the Pope and Ambrose and others saith thus we haue ordeyned Nectarius the Byshop of Constantinople with the whole consent of the Councel in the sight of the Emperoure Theodosius beloued of God the whole citie togyther decreeing the same Likewise he saythe that Flanian was appoynted by that Synode byshop of Antioch the whole people appoynting him Io. Whitgifte The words in that epistle both as the Tripartite histo and as Theodoret himselfe reporteth them lib. 5. cap. 9. signify that the whole citie was well pleased that Nectarius was chosen to be their Byshop and consented vnto it But it dothe not therefore follow that the whole citie did choose him In Theodoret I find these words Reuerendissimum T e. li. 5. cap. 9 dei amantissimū Nectarium episcopū praeposuimus in generali nostro Cō ilio praesente amantissimo dei Imperatore Theodosio cum omnium clericorum ac totius ciuitatis approbatione VVe haue placed or ordeyned the most reuerend and louing Nectarius in our generall Councel both Theodosius the Emperoure most beloued of God being presente and also with the approbation of all the Cleargie and the whole citie They saye we haue placed or ordeyned Nectarius c. and they whiche say so were Byshops Moreouer Theodoret in the chapter that goeth before saith plainly that the Pastors and ministers did choose him Byshop But be it that the whole citie did giue their voyces that is no proofe that at all times it must of necessitie be so The same answer I make to your example of Flauianus Chap. 6. the xiij Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about Anno Domin Needelesse proo fes 400. in the first Canon of the Councel it is sayd when he hath bin examined in all these and found fully instructed then let him be ordeyned Byshop by the common consent of the Clearks and the lay people and the Byshops of the prouince and especially either by the authoritie or presence of the Metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the. 51. distinction it was thus ordeyned Let not him be counted a Priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the Cleargie nor people of that citie where he is a Priest doth choose nor the consent of the Metropolitane and other Priests in that prouince had sought after Moreouer Concilium Gabilonense whiche was holden Anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath this If any Byshop after the death of his predecessor be chosen of any but of the Byshops in the same prouince ▪ and of the Cleargie and citizens let another be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordinatiō be accompted of none effect Al which Councels proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers round about or Synods and councels directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces and consents Io. Whitgifte This which is affirmed of these Councels is confessed to be true but not to the purpose for the question is not whether the peoples consent were required at any time or no but whether it must be required at all times Chap. 6. the. xiiij Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 4. This alteration of gouernment and orders in the Church of Christ is well set out by Ambrose in the. 4. to the Ephe. vpon these wordes Et ipse dedit c. where he saith on this sort that the number of Christians Ambrose might encrease and be multiplyed in the beginning it vvas permitted to euery one to preach the gospell to baptise and to expound the scriptures but vvhen the Church vvas enlarged there vvere certayne parishes appoynted and gouernoures and other officers ordeyned in the Church c. Therfore the vvritings of the Apostles do not in all things agree vvith the orders that are novv in the Church Thus farre Ambrose T. C. Pag. 38. Sect. 1. Indeede if you put such darke colours vpon the Apostles Church as this is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our Church after it But O Lorde who can paciently heare this horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles Church whiche heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the scriptures what
euery congregation so that if the Citie or Towne be great and the professours of the Gospell in it be more than will make conueniently a congregation then there muste bee by the rule of God (*) You haue no worde of God for this and the practise of the primitiue Churche doth cōfute it as it is proued Tract 8. more Pastours and Bishops Wherevpon it appeareth that bothe no Pastour or Bishoppe oughte to bee made without there be a flocke as it were a voyde place for him and that a flocke is not a Realme or Prouince or Diocesse as we now call a Diocesse but so many as may conueniently meete in one assemblie or congregation And that this is the meaning of Sainct Paule it appeareth by the practise of the Churches from tyme to tyme whiche haue bothe decreed agaynst and founde faulte wyth these wandering and rouyng ministeries Io. Whitgifte It is manyfest that S. Paule willed Titus to appoynte presbyteros for that Tit. 1. worde he vseth in euery Citie for so dothe he also saye But what can you heereof conclude What sequele is there in this argument Sainct Paule willed Timothie to appoynt Ministers in euery Citie Ergo there muste be none admitted to the ministerie of the worde but suche as haue some certayne cure or therefore one man maye not haue the ouersighte and direction of many cures In déede if S. Paule had sayde to Titus thou shalte appoynte no Ministers of the worde or Seniors but to a certayne cure or admitte none to preache the Gospell except he haue some one place certenly appoynted vnto him then your reason had bin something But now it hath no shew of any argument The place Act. 14. tendeth to the same purpose neyther is there one worde there to proue that suche maye not preache the worde as haue no certayne charge committed vnto them but the contrarie rather for Paule and Barnabas thoughe they dyd appoynte in euery Churche Ministers yet dyd they preache themselues also And I heare no reason yet why bothe these maye not be true that euery Churche shoulde haue a Pastour and yet that some may be admitted to preache the worde that haue no seuerall churches This I am sure was vsuall in the Apostles time and it is nowe most profitable neither is there one title in the whole scripture against it And you your selfe haue bin in that case euer since you were preacher and remayne so still for any thing that I knowe Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 1. The great Councell of Calcedon decreed that no Eider or Deacon or any other in the ecclesiasticall Cap. 6. act 1 order shoulde be ordeyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is losely and as it were let goe at randon whither he himselfe sted whiche he also interpreteth by and by more playnely when he addeth The Councell of Calcedon maymed that he shoulde not be ordeyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is vnlesse it be specially in a congregation of some citie or towne And in the Councell of Urban as Gratian reporteth distinction 70. it was decreed that the ordination that was made without any title shoulde be voyde and what that meaneth is shewed by and by when it is sayde and in what Church any is intitled there let him always remayne And this is also (*) You stil stum ble vpon Hierome in steade of Musculus S. Hierome his Ad Nepoti ▪ complaynt in that men were ordeyned vnto the ministerie when they were chosen by no Churche and so wente rounde about hauing no certayne place And therefore this that none oughte to preache vnlesse he haue some pastorall charge oughte not to haue beene so straunge a thing vnto you as you make it if eyther the Scriptures or the Councels or the auncient Fathers hadde beene so well knowne vnto you as eyther your name requireth or you take vpon you whyche dare so boldely pronounce that there can be shewed no texte of Scripture for the matter Io. Whitgifte You are notable in falsifying and coruptly alleaging of the authorities of Fathers and Councels and a singular grace you haue bothe in ascribing that vnto them whiche they haue not and in otherwyse reporting that which they haue as you doe nowe in this place deale with the Councell of Calcedon for you say that Councell decreed that no Elder or Deacon c. shoulde bee ordeyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is losely c. And you adde that he interpreteth this more playnely when he addeth that he shoulde not be ordeyned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is vnlesse it be speciallye in a congregation of some citie or towne But you haue craftily lefte out that which maketh agaynst you and playnely openeth the meaning of the Councel which is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. The whole Canon is this Nullum absolutè ordinari debere presbyterum aut Diaconum ńec quemlibet in gradu ecclesiastico nisi specialiter in ecclesia ciuitatis aut pagi aut in martyrio aut monasterio qui ordinandus est pronuncietur Qui verò absolutè ordinantur ▪ decreuit Sancta synodus Con. Cbalced ▪ cap. 6. act 15 ▪ irritam haberi uiusmodi manus impositionem nusquà m posse ministrare ad ordinantis ignominiam Wherby it is plaine that the meaning of the Councell is to haue none admitted into any Ecclesiasticall degrée except he haue some thing to liue vpon and not that he must of necessitie haue some cure for then would not the councell haue sayd aut in martyrio aut monasterio for these be no pastorall charges neither yet woulde it haue added aut Diaconum aut quemlibet in gradu ecclesiastico Deacons or any other in ecclesiastical degree bicause euery one admitted in aliquem gradum ecclesiasticum into any ecclesiasticall degree is not admitted to a cure Wherefore the glosse in Gratian doth well interpret the meaning of this Canon when it saith that nonc is to be ordeined sine titulo Dist. 70. 〈◊〉 without a title ne dicatur mendicat in plateis infoelix clerious least it be saide an vnhappie clerke beggeth in the streates and further addeth thus colligitur etiam bic ex eo quod dicit siue possessionis argumentum quod si quis habet patrimonium sufficiens ordinari potest sine titulo an argument may also here be gathered in that it sayth or of possession that if any haue sufficient patrimonie he may be ordeyned without a title But these words siue in martyrio siue in monasterio do manifestly declare that the Councell would haue none admitted to any Ecclesiasticall function without some stay of liuing either of some benefice Monasterie Colledge Chappell his owne possessions or such like as the practise of the Church vnder the Pope is at this day And yet if any man should say that out o this Canon there can be nothing gathered but onely this in what places those that are called to
Apostles or whiche are themselues notable Apostles for so is this name sometyme generally taken for those which are sent in embassage in the name of Christe Bullinger doth think y t they wer in the number of the. 72. disciples Peter Martyr vpon that Bull. in 16. Rom. place They are called notable amongst the Apostles not bicause they were of the colledge of the twelue Apostles but bicause as it is credible they had spread the Gospell through Martyr in 16 Rom. manie places and had planted many Churches And a little after speaking of your interpretation he sayeth This sense doth not displease me if the wordes themselues bee not contrarie thervnto So that he séemeth to doubte whether the wordes will beare your interpretation or no. Gualter and Bullinger also suppose it not to be vnlykely Gualter in 16. Rom. that they were the first planters of Christian religion at Rome And I can reade of none that doubteth whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no as you do I brought them in before pagina 47. to proue that some may be chosen to preach the woorde whiche haue no certaine cure and you to auoyde a direct answere haue shifted them of to this place and now you say that belyke I bring them in to proue that we may haue more Apostles which thing in déede they proue manifestly but I brought them in to declare that a man may be admitted to preach though he haue no certaine cure and to that you haue not answered There is nothing expressed in Scriptures whether the Apostles did choose any into the roome of Iames or no but I am persuaded they did not neyther was it necessarie For who euer sayd that there muste continually be twelue Apostles and neyther more nor lesse I tolde you before out of M. Caluine that this worde Apostle in his proper and vsuall signification comprehendeth only the twelue Apostles appoynted by Christe Wherfore in this signification there are nowe no Apostles neyther was there anye since that tyme but it signifieth also generally such as preache the Gospel in sundry places and although they go not through the whole worlde as the twelue did yet are they not bounde to any one place certainly And according to this signification there both hath be e and are Apostles Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 2. 3. You aske further that if a man shoulde not preache before he haue a pastorall charge what they will answere vnto Philip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they beno Pastours yet they may be Euangeli t s whiche goe aboute the countrey here there But this office is ceassed in the Churche as the Apostles is sauing that sometymes the Lorde doth rayse vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the Churches whyche are falne down and pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somwhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons Fyrst for bicause all those that the Scripture calleth precisely Euangelistes which are only Philipan Timothie had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is lyke that Titus and 〈◊〉 and pollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same maner Act. 8. 39. confirmed but there is no suche miraculous confirmation nowe therefore there is no suche vocation 1 Tim. I. 18. Io. Whitgifte I haue declared both before by Scripture reason other authoritie that though the name of an Euangelist bée chaunged yet the office remayneth The Scripture no where calleth Tunothie an Euangelist onely 2. Ti. 4. S. Paule willeth him to doe 2. Tim. 4. the woorke of an Euangelist whiche is to preache the Gospell But of this matter I haue at large spoken in an other place It passeth to sée howe boldely you doe abuse the Scripture Where doe you reade that eyther 〈◊〉 or Philippe were ordeyned or confirmed Euangelistes by miracle There can be no such thing imagined in the. 39. verse Acts. 8. the wordes Act. 8. be these And as soone as they that is Philippe and the Eunuche were come oute of the water the spirite of the Lorde caught away Philip that the Eunuche sawe him no more c. Was this the miracle that confirmed Philip an Euangelist Lorde God what meane you This was rather done to confirme the Eunuche As for Philip it is manyfest that before this miracle he was an Euangelist for in the same chapter we reade that before this tyme Philip had preached in Samaria and conuerted them béeing before seduced by Simon the sorcerer and that he had also baptised them Moreouer he had conuerted the Eunuch and baptized him before this miracle was shewed wherfore it could not be a confirming of his Euangelistship That in the. 1. Ti. 1. vers 18. insinuateth that dyuerse Prophecies had gone before of Timothie whereby it was reuealed that he shoulde bée a woorthye Minister of the Churche or as Caluine sayeth which had commended him to the churche although there be sundry interpretations of that place more lyke to bée true than that But howe proueth it that hée was made an Euangelist by miracle First Timothie was nowe a Bishop as hereafter is proued Secondly here is no mention made of any calling to an Euangelist ship Thirdly a Prophecie is not a miracle Last of all though this were true bothe in Philip and Timothie as it is in neyther yet dothe it not followe that whosoeuer is called to be an Euangelist must also be confirmed by miracle for particular examples make no generall rule Timothie was ordeyned minister of the Gospell per impositionem manuum by the laying on of handes 1. Tim. 4. 1. Ti. 4. 2. Ti. 1. And therfore his vocation was ordinarie and néeded no such confirmation 2. Tim. by miracle Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 4. Nowe agayne if there shoulde be any Euangelist who shoulde ordeyne hym you will saye the Bishop But I saye that can not be that the greater shoulde be ordeyned of the lesse For Heb. 7. the Euangelist is a higher degree in the Churche than is the Bishop or pastor And if he be so why hath he not his estimation here in the Churche about the Bishop or Archbishop eyther for the Archbishop is but a Bishop or why doth not he ordeyne Bishops as Tunothie and Titus did which were Euangelistes being one poynt of theyr office as Eusebius declareth Euseb. li. 3. cap. 27. Io. Whitgifte You doe but trie my pacience in so often offending in the petition of the principle For neyther can you proue an Euangelist to be an higher degrée in the Church than is a Bishop neyther is it true that Timothie and Titus were Euangelistes and not Bishops and in that poynt haue you all the writers both olde and newe stories and other one or two only excepted flatly against you besides the euident reasons that may be collected out of the
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Iud. 51. Testament As in the booke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the Uniuersitie men those whiche handled the penne of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battayle agaynst the enemies of God And in the first booke of Samuell and in the seconde booke of the Kings 1. Sam. 19. when Naioth and Bethel Iericho and a place beyonde Iordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. scholes or Uniuersities where the scholers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning the continuance of whiche scholes and vniuersities amongst the people of God Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certayne Colleges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one College to receyue the Iewes and Proselites which came out of Cilicia another for those that came out of Alexandria c. to studie at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shewe suche euidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I will not denie but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Io. Whitgifte Yet sayth he truely for in those tymes in Christian congregations there were neyther publike Churches or Pulpits or scholes or Vniuersities c. and yet these doe apperteyne to the gouernmente of the Churche In déede S. Paule speaketh onely there of suche ecclesiasticall functions as doe teache and preache the worde and not of suche as doe onely gouerne and therefore it can not be a perfecte platfourme for euer as I haue before declared and yet dyuers of these thinges mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie perteyne bothe to the office of teaching and gouerning That whiche you saye of Scholes and Uniuersities I minde not to examine bicause I knowe they be necessary for the Churche howe aptely soeuer you proue them But this is the matter they be necessarie in the Churche bothe for the office The Byshop is not answered of gouerning and teaching and yet they be not expressed in the fourthe to the Ephesians therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall gouernment for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth and therevnto you answere not one worde Not one of these places that you alleage proueth that in this texte to the Ephesians eyther Scholes or Vniuersities be mentioned thoughe it be certayne that they perteyne bothe to teaching and gouerning and therefore all this spéeche of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi to no purpose but onely to dasle the eyes of the Reader least he should perceyue how you offende in ignorantia Elenchi in not answering ad idem Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3. Furthermore he sayth that the Churche is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be shewed we wyll not stryue for the name but for so much as all the needefull offices of the Church togither with theyr names are mentioned in the the Scripture it is truely sayde that bothe the offices and names of Archebishop and Archedeacons beeing not onely not conteyned in them but also condemned ought to be banished out of the Churche Io. Whitgifte I haue before shewed that the office of visiting Churches of ouerséeing many Pastors The office of archbyshops archde cons contemed in scripture and Bishops of suppressing schismes c. was in the Apostles and is in the scriptures But in these things doth the office of an Archbyshop consist and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon therefore the offices of Archbyshops and Archdeacons be conteined in the scriptures and were in the Apostles time For although as I then sayde that this part of the Apostolicall office which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world is ceased yet the manner of gouernment by placing Byshops in euery Citie by moderating and gouerning them by visiting the Churches by cutting of schismes and contentions by ordering Ministers remaineth still and shall continue and is in this Church in the Archbyshops and Byshops as most meete men to execute the same Wherefore séeing the offices be in the scriptures there is no cause why the names should be mislyked much lesse banished and cast out of the churche Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any wayght in his wordes nameth an Archbyshop I haue before shewed what waight there is in his wordes I refuse not that he be weyghed by the Byshops owne weyghtes whiche he giueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacie and in the. 223. and. 224. pages by the which weyghtes appeareth that this Anacletus is not onely lighte but a playne counterfeit Io. Whitgifte Yet you sée that learned men are content to vse such authoritie as occasion serueth Supra ap 〈◊〉 ▪ diuis 13. as I haue also before shewed other learned men to doe the lyke And if it be to greatly to be reproued first smite at your selfe as most guiltie in this poynt Chap. 4. the. 9. Diuision The second Reason Secunda ratio ▪ The Synagogue of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christe And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing The Ansvvere of the Byshop I see not vvhat you vvoulde conclude perhaps you vvill saye they had Eius solutio not the names of Pope or Archbyshop So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses lavve yet vvere not all Priests of like aunciencie in gouernment They had other names that vvere equiualent vvith Archbyshops as Principes Synagogae Principes sanctuarij Principes familiarum Leuiticarum Principes familiarum sacerdotalium Principes Sacerdotum Principes domus Dei Pontifex Summus Pontifex Summus sacerdos c. Therefore this negatiue reason is but vveake Agayne vvhereas it is sayde that to the perfection of the Synagogue there vvanted nothing it may be ansvvered that to the perfection thereof there vvanted many things as it is knovvne and confessed And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbyshop so had it not the name of Apostle o Euangelist c. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which saith that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by y e commaundement of God the Bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothing lesse ment than that the Church vnder the Gospell should haue al those things that y e Church had or should haue nothing which that had not But this ther vpon is concluded that the Lord which was so carefull for that
Christ had not beene restreyned by the lawe of God touching the Passeouer vnto his owne familie being twelue and therefore a competent number to eare vp a lambe by themselues that he would haue celebrated his supper not only amongst his xii disciples which (*) They were made Apostles before and so called afterward he made Apostles but also amongst other of his disciples professors of his doctrine But forsomuch as it was meete that he should celebrate his supper there and then where and when he did celebrate his Passouer for the cause before by me alledged it pleased him to keepe his first Supper with twelue onely for that the law of Communication vnto the Passeouer which was ioyned with the supper woulde not admit any greater number of Communicants they being sufficient and enough to eate vp the passeouer Io. Whitgifte This is onely a coniecture but it ouerthroweth your argument for by your saying Christ had his twelue Apostles there at Supper bycause the lawe touching the Passcouer did bind him thereunto not bicause he would signifie that there should be no Communion except the whole Church do communicate The disciples were made Apostles before the institution of the Supper and were so called as it is euident Math. 10. Mark 3. and therefore I maruell what you meane Math. 10. Marke 3. in saying which afterwardes he made Apostles Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be cleare and plaine that when it is sayde drinke ye all of this and ta ie one for another these sayings are ment of that particular congregation or assemblie whiche assemble themselues togither to be taught by one mouth of the Minister yet I haue therefore put this caution of as much as may be possible least any man shoulde cauill as though I woulde haue no Communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete togither Likewise I haue put this caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that any particular Church may communicate at one table in one day and togither yet may the same be inconuenient for diuerse causes As if the number shoulde be verie great so that to haue them all communicate togither it would require such a long time as the tary ng out of the whole action would hazard eyther the life or at least the health of dyuerse there Againe forasmuch as other some being at the Church it is meete that other shoulde be at home vpon occasion of infantes and suche lyke things as require the presence of some to tar e at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences do deliuer vs from the gilt of vncharitablenesse and forsaking the felowship of the Church for that we doe not here seuer onr selues but are by good and iust causes seuered whiche gilt we shall neuer escape if besydes such necessarie causes we pretende those that are not or hauing not so much as a pretence yet notwithstanding separate our selues as the dayly practise through the Church doth shewe Io. Whitgifte If you be content to admit so many cautions and exceptions then is the question soone decyded and you make it no such commaundement but that vpon occasion it may be altered In déede the wordes of Christ do signifie that the cup of the Supper and the whole Supper is common to all as well of the laytie as we terme them as of the clergie but it doth not prescribe what number shall be present at euery seuerall Communion I doe not excuse those that withdrawe themselues from that Supper except it be vpon necessarie and iust occasion but I denie that the negligence or lawfull occasion of some ought to hinder or stay other from communicating this you should haue proued but you do not and your cautions and exceptions which I verie well allowe declare the contrarie Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 117. Sect. 3. But it may be obiected that in this poynt the booke of common prayer is not in fault whiche doth not onely not forbid that all the Church shoulde receyue togither but also by a good and godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they shoulde not depart but communicate altogither It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neyther shoulde it suffer that three or foure shoulde haue a Communion by themselues so many being in the Church meete to receyue and to whome the Supper of the Lord doth of lyke right apperteyne and it ought to prouide that those which woulde withdrawe themselues should be by ecclesiasticall discipline at all tymes and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment (*) This is clean contrarie to the Admonition pag. 109. brought to communicate with their brethren And this is the lawe of God and this is nowe and hath bene heretofore the practise of Churches reformed All men vnderstande that the Passeouer was a fygure of the Lordes Supper and that there shoulde be as straight bondes to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egypt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the Passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the Numbers Num. 9. where he sayth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane (*) This is not excommunication but putting to death his soule should be cut of from amongst the people of God therefore this neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes Supper ought to be punished with no lesse punishment especially when as after the Church hath proceeded in that order which our Sauiour Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sorie for their fault and promise amendment And that this was the custome of the Churches it may appeare by Conc. Apo. Can. 9. the. 9. of those Cannons which are fathered of the Apostles where it is decreed that all the faythful that entred into the congregation and heard the Scriptures read and did not tarie out the prayers and the holy Communion should be as those which were cause s of disorders in the Church separated from the Church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the Church of God heard the Scriptures Con. 2. Bracca cap. 83. om 2. and afterwarde of wantonnesse or losenesse withdrew himselfe from the Communion of the Sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerend Sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared his repentance Io. Whitgifte I do not much disagrée from this sauing that I sée no reason that thrée or foure should be debarred from so comfortable and fruteful a Sacrament either for the negligence or necessarie impediments of others except also your
as that whiche is not onely not fyttest to holde the people in the syncere worshypping of God but also as that which keepeth them in their former blyndnesse corrupt opinions which they haue conceyued of such holydayes Io. Whitgifte Things that be good and profitable and haue a necessarye vse tending to the Profitable thyngs must not be refused for the abuse edifying of the Churche and the worshyppyng of God are not to bée vtterly remoued for the abuses crepte in but the abuse muste be taken awaye and the thing still remayne If all things should bée abrogated bicause they were kepte of the Papistes there would bée a meruailous alteration bothe in the Churche and in the common weale But I haue shewed before howe farre this is from the truthe euen in some Tract 7. ca. 5. things inuented by Popes much more in suche things as were agréed vppon in the primitiue Church as many of the holydays were before the Popes tyranny though afterwardes greatly abused Holydayes as they be nowe vsed be rather meanes to withdrawe men not only The vse of our holydaies a stoppe to superstition from superstition of the dayes them selues but from all other kyndes of superstition whatsoeuer for then is God in the publike congregation truly worshipped the Sacramentes rightly ministred the scriptures and other godly Homilies read the worde of God faythfully preached all whiche be the chiefe and principall meanes to withdrawe men not onely from superstition but all kynde of errour likewyse Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 2. And if they had bene neuer abused neyther by the Papistes nor by the Iewes as they haue bene and are daylye yet such makyng of holydayes is neuer without some greate daunger of brynging in some euyll and corrupt opinions into the myndes of men Io. Whitgifte Imaginations and gheasses may not go for reasons and I haue shewed before that the holydayes nowe obserued in the Churche of Englande bée meanes to roote euill and corrupte opinions out of the heartes of men so farre are they from ingendring the contrary Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 5. I wyll vse an example in one and that the chiefe of holydayes and most generally of longest tyme obserued in the Churche which is the feaste of Easter whiche was kept of some more dayes of some fewer Howe many thousandes are there I wyll not saye of the ignoraunt Papistes but of those also which professe the Gospell which when they haue celebrated those dayes with diligent heede taken vnto theyr lyfe and with some earnest deuotion in praying and hearing the worde of God do not by and by thynke that they haue well celebrated the feaste of Easter and yet haue they thus notably deceyued them selues For Saint Paule teacheth the celebratyng of the feaste of the 1. Cor. 5. Christians Easter is not as the Iewes Easter was for certayne dayes but sheweth that wee must keepe this feaste all the dayes of our lyfe in the vnleauened bread of sinceritie and of truthe by which we see that the obseruing of the feaste of Easter for certayne dayes in the yeare doth pul out of our myndes or euer wee bee aware the doctrine of the Gospell and causeth vs to reste in that neare consyderation of our duties for the space of a fewe dayes whiche shoulde bee extended to all our lyfe Io. Whitgifte What do you condemne the feast of Easter also would you haue it abrogated The apostles obserued Easter bicause it hath bene abused do you not knowe that the Apostles them selues obserued it and the Churche euer sithence their tyme reade Eusebius lib. 5. cap. 23. and you shall finde it to be a tradition of the Apostles per vse the. 24. and 25. chapter of the same Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 23. 24. 29. booke you shall vnderstand by the testimony of Polycrates all the other byshops in Asia that Philip the Apostle Iohn the Euangelist Polycarpus his scholler other byshops likewyse of greatest antiquitie kept solēly the feast of Easter But why should I labour to proue that that all histories all aunciēt fathers al late wryters al learned men confesse and especially séeing that S. Augustine ad Ianu. 119. sayeth that the obseruation of Easter hath the authoritie from the scriptures and séeing also that the same feaste with others is allowed by the confession of the Churches in Heluetia The wordes of which confession be these Moreouer if Churches as they may by Christian libertie Confess Helue kepe religiouslye the remembraunce of Christe his birth circumcision passion resurrection ascention into heauen and sending his holy ghoste vnto his disciples wee well allowe it Therefore I cannot but marueyle that you so boldely without grounde for abuse sake condemne euen the feaste vsed and allowed by the Apostles and continued in the Churche without contradiction of any one worthy of credite to this daye Surely you may as well reason that the scriptures are not to be read because that heretikes haue so greatly abused them Th place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. is nothing to your purpose for though he borrows a Metaphor of the Iewes passeouer to moue the Corinthiās to purenesse and integritie of lyfe yet doth he not abrogate the feaste of Easter if he had ment any such thing as he did not yet must it haue bene vnderstanded of the Iewes passeouer not of celebration of the memorie of Christes resurrection whiche we commonlye call Easter Dothe hée that sayeth the whole lyfe of a Christian man ought to bee a perpetuall faste denye that there maye bée anye daye or tyme appoynted to faste in A Christian man muste euer serue God and worshyppe hym shall there not therefore be certayne dayes appoynted for the same This is a verye symple argument Saint Paule wylleth vs to purge out the olde leuen that we maye be a newe lumpe c. also to kepe the feaste not with olde leuen neither with the leuen of malitiousnesse c. therefore we maye not celebrate the feaste of Easter once in the yeare I denye this argument The obseruing of Easter doth rather put vs in mynde of the doctrine of the Gospell and drawe vs to a more nere consyderation of the benefites that wée haue receyued by the death passion and resurrection of Christe and I suppose that there are fewe godlye disposed Christians that doe not thynke it moste conuenient and profitable that such feastes especiallye shoulde bée in the Churche reteyned neyther is euerye contentious persons imagination and surmyse what maye happen to bée so greatlye regarded that it shoulde bée sufficient to condemne anye thyng that maye haue a profitable vse in the Churche by whome so euer it is inuented much lesse if it hath bene vsed of the Apostles them selues and euer sythence theyr tyme continued in the Churche as I haue shewed this feaste to haue bene Th weakenesse of man is greate therefore as hée is
especially séeing that Ambrose Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie and that making nothing for your purpose but agaynst you rather bicause it establisheth Collegiate Churches which you would gladly throwe downe then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches immodest words obscure I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely as proueth that which I alleage him for Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose for if you remember your selfe you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue that there was sometime a Seigniorie but yet dissolued and abrogated before his time If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this then in déede you may say that eyther I am abused or desire to abuse other But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose then why do you falsly charge me or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Ambrose for if you can if you can not then temper your immoderate spéeches frame them according to the truthe If Ambrose so misliked y e abrogating of this Seigniorie why did he not labour to restore it agayne surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie he béeing so godly and zelous a Bishop would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it but it is euident by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. Now that I haue shewed the place I will say no more I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as this order is such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches both in time of peace and in time of persecution and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace than in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince than vnder a tyrant why rather nowe than in the Apostles tymes that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without Io. Whitgifte It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it or no for as it nothing hindreth my purpose so winneth it no credite vnto yours And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned and the principall offices of charitie much better exercised by the ciuil Magistrate than by these Seniors and séeing that this kinde of gouernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered séeing also that it bringeth in confusion derogateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed yet is there no cause why it should nowe or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes be of necessitie reteyned Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. And so also is answered the thirde question that for so muche as they were Churche officers a The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase for it pro ueth nothing in question and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God and such as watched ouer the soules of men a Heb. 13. that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons Io. Whitgifte M. Beza in an Epistle that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza Hel tia speaking of the Seigniorie sayth that there must be a great consideration had that Princes and noble men and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche be chosen to be of the Seigniorie and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiasticall persons and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men in déede those that be called Presbyteri in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments And M. Caluine Institut cap. 8. sect 52. Caluine sayth that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde His words be these Habebant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium qui pastores erant Doctores nam apud populū munus docendi exhortandi corrigendi quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit OMNES obibant for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors which were Pastors and teachers for they dyd all exercise among the people the offyce of teaching exhorting and correcting which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men gentlemen marchauntmen husbandmen handycraftesmen as Taylors Shomakers Carpenters c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Admonition Then the sentence was tempred according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousnesse of the fact Nowe on the one 〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement or else fauour affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Churche is committed into one mans hands whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert than to ouerthrow the fayth pietie of a zelous and godly companie for suche maner of men in deede (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. Pag. 131. 132. Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. You say all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church is committed vnto one mans hands and for the proofe of this you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts whiche places beeing examined let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes and not of suche as be open and knowne to others For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad publikely reprehended before the partie offending be in this order
by that which I haue here already spoken Yet would I not haue any man to thinke that I condemne any churches where this gouernment is lawfully without daunger receyued onely I haue regarde to whole kingdomes especially this Realme where it cannot but be daungerous ¶ That there is no one certaine kinde of Gouernment in the Church which must of necessitie be perpetually obserued Chap. 4. I know it wil be obiected that y e ordinaūce of God must take place whatsoeuer incōueniēces follow that this kinde of gouernmēt is the ordinance of God therfore may not for any respect be omitted But I haue denied sufficiētly declared before y t this kind of Gouernment is no where in scripture cōmaūded that it neither is nor can be perpetuall And although I haue sufficiently proued this in one or two places before the contrary is yet vnproued as I had occasion to speake of it yet I trust it shall not be grieuous to the Reader if in a worde or two I here knit vp the matter First I affirme that there is not one sentence in the whole scripture wherevpō y e 1. No commaundement hereof in scripture perpetuitie or the necessitie of this kinde of gouernment may be grounded For the place in 1. Tim. 5. doth neither cōmaunde any such kinde of gouernment nor prescribe any forme or manner of it besides the place is doubtfull diuersly expounded and therfore no such perpetual rule can be gathered of it Moreouer y e Apostle only in that place sheweth that such as rule wel are worthie of double honour c. so that I maruaile how any man can of those wordes conclude either such a Seigniorie as now is Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision imagined or any perpetuitie of it But of this place I haue spoken before Secondly it is wel know that the manner forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles 2. The gouernment in the Apostles time cannot nowe be exercised time expressed in the scriptures neither is now nor cā or ought to be obserued either touching the persons or the functions for we haue neither Apostles Prophets workers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tounges widowes or such like all which perteyned to the gouernment of the Church in the Apostles time and were partes of it as appeareth ▪ 1. Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1. Tim. 5. And seing that the Church is not boūd to this forme so plainly expressed in these places of scripture I see not how you can binde it to the selfe same forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles time Thirdly this worde gubernationes mentioned 1. Cor. 12. whervpon you would groūd 3. The worde gubernationes implieth not the Seigniorie but by coniecture your Seigniorie may as some learned men think signifie any kind of gouernment cuē the ciuil Magistrate Certayne it is that only by méere coniectures it is drawne to signifie this new deuised Seigniorie therfore cannot inferre any necessary cōclusiō Furthermore it is by the spirite of God placed among those functions y t be temporall and by the iudgement of all learned men ceased for thus the Apostle sayeth Deinde potestates deinde dona sanationum opitulationes gubernationes genera linguarum now it were 1. Cor. 12. a very straunge matter that all the rest should be temporall and onely gubernationes perpetuall sure I am that the argument which so concludeth may easily be denied and by no probabilitie proued Fourthly we sée manifestly that in sundrie poynts the gouernment of y e Church 4. The Apostolicall gouernment hath of necessitie bene altered vsed in the Apostles time is and hath bene of necessitie altered that it neither may nor can be reuoked whereby it is playne that any one certayne forme or kinde of externall gouernment perpetually to be obserued is no where in the Scripture prescribed to the Churche but the charge thereof is left to the Christian Magistrate so that nothing be done contrarie to the woorde of God This is theopinion of the best writers neyther do I know any learned man of a 5. The generall opinion of the best writers Musculus loc Com. tit de Magist. contrarie iudgement M. Musculus speaking of those Seniors sayth that they were vsed in those Churches only that were destitute of Christian Magistrates which haue the chieftie and power c. not only in prophane but in diuine matters And after answering an obiection of 1. Cor. 6. he sayeth that we must needes distinguish betwene the state of the Church in those dayes and that whichis now I haue before declared M. Gualters iudgement of this matter in his Cōmentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. And vpō the. 11. chapt Gualter hom 56. in 1. Cor. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth thus VVherefore as concerning the doctrine of fayth and saluation we acknowledge no traditions of the Apostles but those whiche are conteyned in the creede c. But as concerning the externall forme of the Churche wee denie not that they haue taught euery where many thinges of the order of Ecclesiastical assemblies of the administration of Sacraments and of the whole gouernment of the Churche VVhereof bicause there cannot be one forme in euery place obserued they did in suche sorte appoynt them as they sawe to be requisite for the condition of any Citie or Countrie And it is certaine that the Churches in all ages haue vsed their libertie in these thinges therfore they are to iniurious which at this day eyther vnder the name of the traditiōs of the Apostles or for any other pretence go about to binde all Churches to one and the selfe same forme And vpon the. 12. chapter where he againe speaketh of the Seigniorie he Idem sayeth There be diuers which will needes institute Elders or an Ecclesiasticall enate according to the exāple of the old primitiue Churche which also should haue authoritie ouer the Magistrates thēselues if at any time they did not their dutie But it behoueth them first to shew that those their Seniors haue this power wherof Paule doth presētly speake which thing seing it doth by no meanes appeare and yet notwithstanding they deliuer vnto Satan whom they wil they do like as if some would go about to clense the leprous raise the dead worke other miracles bicause these things were vsually done in the primitiue Churche And y ◠which he speaketh touching this matter also vpō the. 14. chapt of y e same Epistle is not vnworthie y e noting whereof I haue before made mention That their ambition Idem is there reproued which go about to bring all churches to the forme of their discipline gouernmēt crie out that there is no discipline there where al things are not agreable to their traditiōs orders But these mē receiue a iust reward of their arrogācie when as they that come frō thē to other coūtries do go
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And whereas Master Doctor sayth that the office of the Deacons is not onely to prouide for the poore but also to preach and minister the Sacraments I haue shewed before that it both not apperteync vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof this place of the Romaines quoted by the Admonition is verie fitte and most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocations did breake into that which apperteyned vnto others as it the hande shoulde take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the bodie and therefore Saint Paule doth as it were bounde and poynt the lymittes of euerie office in the Church and so placeth the Deacons office onely in the prouision for the poore This one thing I will adde to that matter that if the Apostles whiche had such excellent and passing gyftes did finde themselues preaching of the worde and attending to prayer not able to prouide for the poore but thought it necessarie to discharge themselues of that office to the ende they might doe the other effectually and frutefully he that shall doe both nowe must eyther do none well and profitably or else he must haue greater giftes than the Apostles had Io. Whitgifte I haue proued before manifestly that it perteyned to the office of a Deacon to Tract 14. preach and to minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and to helpe in other businesse perteyning to the Church I haue alledged both manifest examples out of the scripture to iustifie the same and the practise of the primitiue Church togither with the testimonies both of the auncient and late wryters and vndoubtedly you are dryuen to a great streight when you are inforced to vse this place of the. 12. to the Romaines to proue the contrary for though it were ment of Deacons yet doth it not proue in any respect your purpose neyther can you frame any argument of it to that ende Neither Steuen nor Philip when they being Deacons preached and the one ministred the Sacrament of Baptisme also did breake into that whiche apperteyned not vnto them being incident to their office when they be therevnto called The Apostles were occupied in planting Churches in going from place to place to spreade abrode the worde of God and therefore they coulde not so conueniently prouide for the posre but the Deacons hauing no such occasion of traveling and remouing from place to place might very well both preach the Gospell and prouide for the poore Neither can I conceiue any reason to the contrarie for I thinke they spent no greate tyme in turning ouer manie volumes to prouide for their Sermons bicause God gaue to them extraordinarie gyftes of knowledge vtterance and suche lyke necessarie for their function And if you speake of Deacons nowe I say vnto you that vnder a Christian Prince in the tyme of peace that part of their Some part of the Deacons office not so needfull in the time of christian magistrats office to prouide for the poore is not necessarie séeing that by other lawfull and politike meanes they may much better be prouided for Wherfore glorie as much as you will in your owne witte and reason yet in these heauenly diuine things your reasons shall proue but vaine and vntowarde Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Againe in the olde Church euery (w) Phil. 1. 1. Iohn 13. 27 Acts. 6. 5. 1. Tim. 3. 8. congregation had their Deacons Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 120. O how aptly you haue alledged the scriptures to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the first to the Philip. these be Whether deacons were in euery congregation the wordes Paule and Timotheus c. to all the Saincts vvhiche are at Philippi vvith the Bishops and Deacons Paule Timotheus salute the Bishops and Deacons which are at Philippi Therfore in those dayes euerie congregation had their Deacons a straunge kinde of reasoning you might well haue thus concluded Ergo at Philippi there was Deacons But surely this argument is to much out of Unapt arguments square there was Deacons at Philippi therefore euerie congregation had their Deacons In the. 13. of S. Iohn verse 27. these be the wordes And after the soppe Sathan entered into him then sayde Iesus vnto him that thou doest do quickly After Supper Satan entered into Iudas and Iesus sayde vnto him that thou doest do quickly Therefore euerie Cōgregation had their Deacons No maruel though your margent be pestred with Scriptures when you take libertie to make ex quolibet quidlibet Peraduenture you meane that Iudas was a Deacon as he was not but an Apostle bycause he caryed the bagge and that some of the Apostles thought that Christ had bid him giue some what to the poore belike whosoeuer giueth a pennie to the poore at his masters commaundement is with you a Deacon In the sixt of the Actes we learne that there were chosen seuen Deacons but there is not one worde to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the thirde of the first to Timothie S. Paule sheweth what qualities and conditions a Deacon ought to haue but not one worde of Deacons being in euery Congregation This is great audacitie thus manifestly to wring the Scriptures without all colour or shewe of reason T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. vlt. The second point is touching that there were Deacons in euery Church which is wel proued of the Admonition both by the place of the Philippians and of the Acts for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet forsomuch as the same vse of thē was in all Churches whiche was in Ierusalem and at Philippes and for that the Apostles as hath beene before touched labouring after the vniformitte of the Church ordeyned the same officers in all Churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were Deacons in one Church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the Church of Ephesus but simplie and generally how the Church must be gouerned reckeneth there the order of Deacons whereunto may be added the continuall practise of the Church long after the Apostles tymes which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these wordes the Bishop Elders and Deacons of suche a Church and vnto the Bishops Elders and Deacons of such a Church And by that it is so oftentymes sayde in the councels where the Churches assembled that there were so many Bishops so many Elders so many deacons Io. Whitgifte And I say againe that they be most vnapt reasons for the Deacons office was not so troublesome but that the Deacons of one Citie might serue all the Churches and congregations belonging vnto the same neyther haue you read eyther in scripture or any auncient
reason against their deniall If this be M. Doctors simple shift throughout his booke I trust M. Doctor that would haue bin hath not omitted to note it where he may finde it seing his eye sight is so sharpe that he can imagine himselfe to espie it where no man else can find it But let words go Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 2. You say that thereby prayer for the dead is mainteyned as may partly be gathered out of some of the prayers where we pray that we with this our brother and other departed in the true faith of thy holy name ▪ c. You know full well what out doctrine Prayer for the dead not mainteyned is concerning prayer for the dead and you ought not thus boldly to vtter a manifest vntruth for in so doing you do but be wray your sinister affection How proue you that a prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister only to bury them doth mainteine prayer for the dead ▪ when you haue shewed your reason you shall hea e my answer In saying that these words gathered out of some of the prayers Pag. 199. 〈◊〉 1. 2. 3. that we with this our brother c. import prayer for the dead you do but quarrell E position of a prayer at Buriall when we say that we with Abraham Isaac and Iacob may reygne in thy kingdome do we pray for Abraham Isaac and Iacob or ather wish ourselues to be where they are In the like manner when we say that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation blisse both in body and soule we pray not for our brother and other that be departed in the true faith but we pray for ourselues that we may haue our perfect consummation and blisse as we are sure those shall haue which die in the true fayth Now weigh this reason there is a prescript forme of burying the dead and it is madea portion of the ministers office ther fore you will not subscribe to the communion booke T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 1. And first o all as this almost is a generall fault in them all that they mainteine in the myndes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is this also another generall faulte that these ceremonies are taken vp without any example eyther of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the Gospell that is of the churches in the Apostles tymes For when the Scripture describeth the ceremonies or rites of buriall amongst the people of God so diligently that it maketh mention of the smallest things there is no doubt but the holy Ghost doth thereby shew vs a patterne wherevnto we should also frame our burialls And therefore for so muche as neyther the Church vnder the law nor vnder the Gospell when it was in the greatest puritie did euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buriall of their dead it could not be but daungerous to take vp any such custome and in the time of the law it was not only not vsed but vtterly for for bidden Leuit. 21. for when the law did forbid that the priest should not be at the buriall whiche ought to saye or conceiue the prayers there it is cleare that the Iewes might n t haue any suche prescripte forme and yet they had most neede of it for the causes of obscure knowledge and weaker fayth before alleadged Agayne by this meanes a new charge is layd vpon the minister and a taking him away from his necessary duties of feeding gouerning the flocke which being so greate as a maruellous dilig nce will scarsely ouercome ought not to be made greater by this being a thing so vnnecessary The Admonition dothe not say that the prayers whiche are sayd are for the dead but that they mainteyne an opinion of prayer for the dead in the heartes of the simple and that they declare mamanifestly enough when they say that it may be partly gathered c. Io. Whitgifte Your first reason to proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the The prescript forme of seruice mainteyneth not pr yer for the dea but 〈◊〉 dead and that the minister ought n t to execute that office is this It mainteyneth in the mindes of the ignorant an opinion of praying for the dead therefore there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the dead neyther must the minister execute that office Undoubtedly this is a very ignorant argument if a man denie your antecedent howe will you proue it do you thinke the people whome you do so greatly in other places extoll to be so rude that they vnderstand not the English tongue Are they not able to discerne what it is to pray for the dead Surely I do not thinke any to be so simple that hearing the manner and forme of burying our dead can or will imagine that we pray for the dead And I verily beléeue that the ignorantest person in a whole countrey will deride the babishnesse of the argument The prescripte forme that is now vsed and the minister pronouncing the same wi ather perswade them to the contrary for where as in times past the minister vsed to say masse and dirige for the soules of the dead and sundry times moue standers by to pray for the dead at the time of buriall now doth he reade most wholesome scriptures declaring the myserie of the life of man the shortnesse of his dayes the happinesse of those that dye in the Lorde and the certeintie of the resurrection And who can hereof gather any prayer for the dead Your second reason is this these ceremonies that is a prescript forme of burying the dead c are taken vp without any example eyther of the Churches vnder the law or of the churches in the Apostles time c. therefore there may be no prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister may not make it a péece of his office to bury them I denie this argument for it is negatiue from authoritie bycause you haue neyther warrant to say that there was no such order in the Apostles time neither if you had any such warrant doth it follow that it may not be so in our time séeing that in ceremonies and diuers other orders and externall thinges we are not bounde to the forme and manner of the Apostolicall Church And yet if I should say that in the Apostles time the minister vsed to bury the dead and ground my reason vpō the place of S. Augustine before alleadged quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia c. I know not what you would be able by any reason to say to the contrary Another argument you conclude thus It was forbidden in the lawe that the prieste should be at the buriall of the dead therefore the Iewes
so notable a peece of vvork consisteth of tvvo false principles and rotten pillers vvhereof the one is that vvee must of necessitie haue the same kynde of gouernment that vvas in the Apostles tyme and is expressed in the scriptures and no other the other is that vve may not in any vvise or in any consideratiō reteyne in the Church any thing that hath bin abused vnder the Pope if these tvvo postes be vveake yea rotten as I haue proued them to be in this my Defense then must the building of necessitie fall Touching the first it is to be vnderstanded that there is a double gouernment of the Church the one spirituall the other externall Christ onlie and none other by the operation of his spirite and directiō of his vvord spiritually gouerneth his Church and reignyng in the conscienees of the faithfull guydeth their myndes in all matters of deuotion faith and holynesse and this is the spirituall kingdome of Christ so much spoken of in the scriptures and speciallie in the Prophets of this kynde of gouernment I meane not The externall gouernment hath both a substance and a matter about vvhich it is occupied and also a forme to atteyne the same consisting in certaine offices and functions and in the names and titles of them the substance and matter of gouernment must in deede be takē out of the vvord of God and cōsisteth in these pointes that the vvorde be trulie taught the sacramentes rightlie administred vertue furthered vice repressed and the Church kept in quietnes and order The offices in the Church vvhereby this gouernment is vvrought be not namely and particularelie expressed in the scriptures but in some pointes left to the discretion and libertie of the Church to be disposed according to the state of tymes places persons as I haue further declared in my Ansvvere and Defense follovving Of the secōd principle I haue also spoken at large there so that I shall not neede to trouble the Reader any further in these matters The proofes that T. C. vseth in this his Replie are grounded onlie vpō vntrue allegations and interpretations of the scriptures vaine and childishe reasons falsifying the authorities of Doctors other vvriters vntrulie ascribing that vnto them vvhich they vvrote not as shall be euidētlie declared in this Defense by the grace of God and surelie I haue not redde many bookes vvherein so many grosse vntruthes are to be found or vvherein there is so manye manifest argumentes vttered to proue the ignoraunce of the author and lacke of reading auncient and learned vvryters Touching his manner of vvriting I shal not neede to say much for any mā of iudgemēt that readeth his book may easilie perceiue vvith vvhat hautines of mynde vvhat contempt disdayne of others in vvhat sclaundrous and opprobrious manner it is vvritten hovve oft doth he repeate M. Doctor in contēpt either of the degree or of the person 370. times is the leaste vvhat other speaches of disdaine and reproche doth he vtter but I do nothing at all maruayle at it for I consider it hath bene the vsuall practise of sectaries and disquieters of Aug. lib. 1. contra Donatist the Church It is true that S. Augustine sayeth lib. 1. contra Donatist cap. 11. Nulli schismata facerent si fraterno odio non excaecarentur None would make schismes if they were not blinded with hatred of their brethren And againe An non est in schismate odium fraternum quis hoc dixerit cum origo pertinacia schismatis nulla sit alia nisi odium fraternum Is there not hatred of brethren in schismes who would saye so seeing that the beginning and continuaunce of schisme proceedeth from no other cause than from hatred of our brethren I must therefore saye vvith M. Zuinglius Scio quibus conuitijs quantis furoribus illorum Lib. de Baptis hic me exponam I knowe to what reproches and to howe greate rages of theirs I make my self subiect And I vvill conclude vvith him Quamuis miris conuitijs nos perstringere Eodem nouis quotidie clamoribus morderenō des a ̄t c. Although they maruelouselie slaūder vs and daylye with newe clamors reuile and backbite vs yet will I neuer leaue of the defense of the truth before their contumacie be made knowne to all men VVho so peruseth such learned authors as had greate experience of the lyke kynde of men he shall finde that their especiall grace both in speaking and vvriting hath bene in bitter inuectiues against other vvhom they haue enuyed and hated for some speciall causes M. Zuinglius in an Epistle that he vvriteth before his book de Baptismo speaking of the Anabaptistes sayeth thus Hyp critica illorum humilitas illis fatis nota perspecta est qui cum his aliquando sermones contulerunt quà m scilicet sit illorum oratio omni felle amarulentior Their hypocriticall humilitie is verie well knowne to those which haue had cōference with them how that their talk is more bitter than gaule And in his booke de Baptismo he earnestlie protesteth that he neuer found any thing in them quà m saturninam quandam melan holicam ingeniorum contumaciam c. and in his book against Baltasar he sayth that by dispraysing and reuyling others they seeke to wynne credite vnto them selues How this qualitie agreeth vvith some of our men and especiallie vvith the author of this Replie I am content that other men iudge If I my selfe haue in vvryting and in this Defense spoken something more sharpelie it must be imputed to myne infirmitie and yet am I therevnto greatelie prouoked but herein as in manye other matters I submit my selfe to the iudgement of those that haue authoritie to iudge and of those that be learned for I am content still to make this the foote of my song Errare possum haereticus esse nolo To those that be in authoritie I onlie speake as M. Zuinglius did to the magistrates in his time vpon the like occasion Quòd si hoc cuiuis hominū impunè facere licebit In Ecclesiast vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imò resistente etiam vniuersa totius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quà m fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it be lawful for euery man to publish abroade among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne heade before he hath consulted with the church nay against the authoritie of the whole church in short time we shall see moe errors in the church than there be faithfull men and Christians And againe Si enim boc permittamus vt capitosus quisque Lib. de Baptis malè feriatus bomo mox vt nouum aliquid insolens animo suo concepit c. If we suffer euery hedie and braynelesse fellowe so sone as he hath cōceyued any new thing in his mynd to publish
these opprobrious termes Proude generation tyrannous Lordships vngracious cruell Popelike wicked raygne proude enimies c. applied to brethren proceede not from the humble and mylde spirite of God but from the proude and arrogante spirite of Sathan Therefore by this vnseemely Preface it may appeare from what spirite the rest of this Admonition springeth Touching the crueltie and rigour Pretended persecution these men complayne of I shall neede to speake little beeing manyfest to all that be not with sinister affection blynded that lacke of seueritie is the principall cause of their licentious libertie But who seeth not their hypocrisie whiche woulde make the worlde beleeue that they are persecuted when they be wyth too muche lenitie punished for their vntollerable contempte of good lawes and other disordered dealings Nay suche is their peruersnesse or rather arrogancie that if they be debarred but from the least parte of their wyll and desire by and by they crie oute of crueltie and persecution it is to bee doubted what these men wyll doe when persecution commeth in deede whiche nowe make so muche of a little or rather of nothing As for this great bragge Stout brags For howe soeuer learned and many they seeme to be they shoulde and maye in this Realme finde owe to matche them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne Satis arroganter dictum est and verifieth that to bee true that is commonly spoken of these kinde of men that is that they contemne all other in comparison of them selues that they thinke them selues onely zealous onely learned c. But it is possible that they maye be matched and I knowe no man of learning afrayde to encounter wyth them either by worde or wryting Touching the ministerie and gouernmente of the Churche what faultes there is to be therein founde we shall vnderstande when we come to their reasons God graunt vs humble and meeke spirites that godly vnitie may be maynteined in the Churche One thing I muste desire thee to note gentle Reader wherein the folly of these men maruellously appeareth howe they haue paynted the margent of their booke with quoting of Scriptures as though al were scripture they write when as in deed they abuse the scripture and thee For what one place of scripture is in all thys Preface alleaged to any purpose and yet how many is there quoted To proue that we must reade these two treatises without partialitie or blinde affection heere is noted in the margent 1. Thes. 5. Scriptures abused in the Admonition verse 21. Iam. 1. Iam. 2. The place to the Thessaloniās is this Trie all thinges and keepe that vvhiche is good The place of of the firste of Iames is this VVherfore my deare brethren let euery man be svvifte to heare slovve to speake and slovve to vvrathe And the seconde place of Iames is this My brethren haue not the faythe of our Lorde Iesus Christe in respecte of persons And to what purpose are these places alleaged what proue they or what neede is there to alleage them These Apostles in these places speake not of rayling Libels but of Scriptures wrested hearing the worde of God and iudging of matters of faythe according to the truthe and not to the persons To proue that tyrannous lordship can not stande with Christes kingdome they alleage the. 15 of Matth. and Luke 16. The place in the. 15. of Math. verse 23. is this But he ansvvered hir not a vvorde then came to him his Disciples and besought hym saying sende hir avvay for she cryeth after vs. In the sixeteenth of Luke it is thus Then he sayde vnto them ye are they vvhiche iustifie your selues before men but God knovveth your heartes for that vvhiche is highly esteemed among men is abhomination in the sighte of God I would gladly knowe howe their assertion and these two textes hang togither I allowe not tyrannous lordeship to stande with Chrystes kingdome But it may well inoughe for any thing in these two places to the contrarie Tyrannous lordship is not esteemed among men but hated ¶ The Replie vnto the answere of the Preface T. C. Pag. 9. Sect. 2. IT maye be sayde vnto you that whiche Aristotle sayde of a certayne Philosopher that he knew not his owne voyce For if that you had remēbred that which you do so often promise that you will not answere wordes but matter the Printer shoulde not haue gayned so muche men should not haue bestowed so muche money of a thing not of so greate value nor that whiche is more the worlde shoulde not bee burdened with vnprofitable writinges For howe often runninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inueyghing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednesse maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speeche in them you haue payde it agayne with measure pressed downe and running ouer Howe often charge you them with pride and arrogancie men that confesse once or twice of them selues their wante of skill and whiche professe nothing of them selues but onely a bare and naked knowledge of the truthe whiche maye be done with modestie euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neither voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they doe not make so many wordes of Pro. 11. v. 9 it as you Salomon saythe that he that is despised and hathe but one seruaunte is better than he whiche magnifieth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth bread whereby he meaneth that the man that hathe but a little and carieth his countenance accordingly is muche more to be esteeined than he whiche beareth a greate porte and hathe not to supporte it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignorance of them woulde make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician and Philosopher as if Logike and Philosophie had beene borne with you and shoulde dye with you when as it may appeare partely by that whiche hathe beene spoken and partely by those thinges that will fall out heereafter that you are better acquaynted with the names of Logike and Philosophie than with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the Uniuersities iudgement where you haue beene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions howe often times in your booke doe you pull at the Magistrates sworde and what sworde you woulde haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment wherevpon also dothe eusue the expense of that whiche they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betweene vs howe many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations whiche
Sacraments administred in priuate families so that they be done according to the order of the Churche and not in the contempt of common and publike assemblies And I thinke that suche noble men and gentlemen as vpon oceasion either of infirmitie of body or of distance of place or some other vrgēt cause haue the word of God preached in their priuate families and the Sacraments ministred according to the order of the Churche are greatly to be commended Neyther doth this open any window to secrete and schismaticall conuenticles suche I meane as seeke corners bycause they wil not kéep the orders lawes of the Church but contemne the same and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions In the which number those be whome I haue truly charged with conuenticles for they despising the order of the Churche haue wickedly separated themselues from the same whose opinions notwithstanding you mainteine although you would séeme to condemne their conuenticles But it may be that you coumpt this time to be a time of persecution and so excuse their doings To be short when I speake either of priuate preaching or of priuate ministring the sacraments I meane it especially in respecte of the place and not in the respect of any schismaticall separation so that hitherto you haue said nothing that impugneth any thing that I haue written Neyther haue I spoken any otherwise in all these things than other learned and godly men haue done as it is to be séene by all theyr seuerall authorities which I haue in their places set downe Chapter 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what ment Saint Paule in 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certaine orders vnto them to be obserued in the Church thus generally to conclude Omnia decenter ordine fiant Let all things be done decently and in order Doth he not there giue vnto them authoritie to make orders in the Church so that al things be done in order and decently The best interpreters doe vnderstande this as a generall rule giuen vnto the Churche to examine hir traditions and constitutions by And therefore without all doubt their iudgement is that the Church hath authoritie in externall things to make orders and appoint lawes not expressed in the worde of God so that this rule of the Apostle be obserued Io. Whitgifte Here haue you not answered one word to that which I haue alleadged out of the The ground of the assertion vnanswered by T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my generall assertion in this point nor to the interpretation of it that therefore being graunted the rest must néedes stande in full force that is that the scripture hathe lefte many thinges to the discretion of the Church The opinion of auncient fathers and Councelles of things indifferent Chap. 2. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly councels or auncient fathers were any thing Auncient fathers of thīgs indifferent at all regarded of these men as they be not suche is their arrogancie this controuersie might soone be decided For the most auncient fathers and best learned as Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian and other do expressely declare that euen from the Apostles time the Church hath always had authoritie in such matters and hathe obserued diuers orders and ceremonies not once mentioned in the word of God T. C. Page 16. Sect. 3. Page 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are broughte in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and Councells as (a) Wilfull ignorance for you know very well that euery one of them greatly fauoureth this cause dumbe persons in the stage only to make a shew and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersie there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strēgth of his cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustine which was a great time after them And if the godly councels could haue helped here it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of men the credite of many be better than of one and that this is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is looked vnto in a matter that is debated more than theirs of the common sort so the iudgement of a counsell where many learned men be gathered togither carieth more likelihoode of truth with it than the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall counsell much more than if it be generall therfore you do your cause greate iniurie if you could alleadge them and do not This is once to bee obserued of the reader throughout your whole booke that you haue well prouided that you should not be taken in the trip for misaledging the scriptures for that vnlesse it be in (b) Moe scriptures than you and something better applyed one or two points we heare continually in stead of Esay and Ierenty S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the And as we say in our tonge ettles amōg roses Prophets and Apostles S. Augustine and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionisius Areopagita Clement c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures which in the controuersies which rise amongst ourselues flie so far from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if this be a sufficient proofe of things to say (c) A better proofe than to say I say so as you commonly vse to do such a doctor said so suche a councell decreede so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faythe maye be shaken And therefore bycause you haue (d) Petitio principij no proofein the word of God we comfort ourselues assured that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Byshops and of other things whiche are in question be not in heauen that they will fall and come to the grounde from whence they were taken Now it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earth and that they are of men and not of God Io. Whitgifte Here are many words which might well haue bin spared but that you are desirous Sect. 1. to haue your modest speaches knowne to the world In the. 25. page I haue told you where some of these dumbe persons speake their partes but you are blinde when you should sée and deafe when you should heare that which you
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
Sundaye and whereof both Ignatius and Tertullian speake but it is the Saterday whych is called Sabbatum And that this is true you myghte haue read in the same Epistle of Augustyne to Casulanus where he saith thus VVhereas you aske of me whyther it be lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye I Ibidem aunswere if it were by no meanes lawfull truely neyther Moyses nor Helias nor oure Lorde him selfe woulde haue fasted fortie dayes together But by thys reason it is concluded that the faste on the Lordes daye is lawfull also notwythstandyng whosoeuer doth thynke that thys daye oughte to be dedicated vnto fastyng as some doe obserue the Sabboth fasting he shall gyue no small offence to the Churche And after in the same Epistle And truely of the Sabboth day the case is more easie bycause the Church of Rome dothe faste and some other also althoughe but fewe eyther of those that be nexte or farre from it But to faste on the Lordes daye is a greate offence especially since that detestable heresye of the Manicheis which is muche repugnant to the Catholike fayth and moste manifestly contrarye to the Scriptures of God hath bene openly knowen whych doe appoynte vnto their hearers thys daye as lawfull to be fasted wherby it is come to passe that the faste on the Lordes daye is accompted more horryble You sée therefore howe you maye be deceyued for all the great reading you woulde séeme to be of for these fathers agrée among them selues and you haue faulted in opposyng them to Augustyne and Ambrose so that for anye thing that is yet proued agaynst them a man may well vse theyr authoritie in such matters wythout that inconuenience that you suppose for I knowe howe farre they them selues would be beléeued and wherevnto theyr authoritie extendeth It is lyke that bothe Ambrose and Augustine woulde haue done that themselues which they moued other men vnto and much more beyng Citizens than beyng straungers it is also like that if they had bene Ministers there they woulde haue in time and place reproued suche things as were amisse for it had bene their duetie so to doe yet doe I lykewise thinke that they would haue had great respect to that aduertisement that Augustine gaue to Casulanus in that Epistle in these wordes vtique cauendis est ne tempestate contentionis serenitas charitatis obnubiletur Verily we muste take heede least Ibidem in the storme of contention the fairenesse of loue be darkened The errors which Ambrose or Augustine had must not preiudice their authoritie in speaking truely This is but a very simple kinde of answering to denie the author where be speaketh truely bycause in some other place he hath erred and bene deceyued I neither alledge Ambrose nor Augustine to allowe or disalow weekely and commanded fastes but to proue the matter that I haue in hand which is that the scripture hath not expressed all things vsed in the Churche Howbeit I know nothing in this place affirmed either by Ambrose or Augustine touching fasting which may not be obserued without iust offence Chapter 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 2. That whiche he writeth in his Epistle ad Ianuarium 118 is a most Aug. Ep. 118. playne declaration of his iudgement in this matter Illa autem quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur dantur intelligi vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in Ecclesia saluberrima authoritas commendata atque statuta retineri sicuti quod domini passio resurrectio ascensio in coelum aduentus de coelo spiritus sancti anniuersaria solennitate celebrantur si quid aliud tale occurrerit quod seruatur ab vniuersa quacunquese diffundit ecclesia Those things vvhiche be not vvritten but kept by tradition vvhich are obserued through the vvhole vvorld are to be vnderstanded either to be deliuered vnto vs from the Apostles them selues or else decreed by generall Councels vvhose authoritie is greate in the Churche as that vve yerely vvith solemnitie celebrate the passion of the Lorde and his resurrection his ascention into heauen and the comming of the holy Ghost and if there be any other thing that is obserued of the vvhole Churche T. C. Pag. 18. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell You charge the authors of the Admonition to be conspired with the Papistes I will not charge you so but will thinke better of you vntill the contrarie do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not * Nor one whit but the contrarie shall be proued to bring in poperie agayne to allowe of S. Augustines saying wherein he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall Councell or of the Apostles commaunded and decreed whereby a gate is open vnto the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour of traditions all their beggerie whatsoeuer For you playnely confirme that there is some thing necessarie to be obserued whiche is not contayned any wayes in the Scripture For to keepe those holydayes is not contayned in the Scripture neither can be concluded of any parte thereof and yet they are necessarie to be kepte if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessarie to be kepte whiche is not contayned in the Scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Augustine leaueth it in doubt whether it were the Apostles tradition and statute or a generall Councels then you bring vs yet to a worse poynte that we can not be assured of that whiche is necessarie for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordayne that these dayes shoulde be kepte as holydayes or the Councels And that it is S. Augustines meaning to father Sermo 7. de baptis cont Donatist lib. 5. ca. 23. suche like things of Apostles it may appeare by that which he writeth saying There are many things whiche the whole Churche holdeth and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded of the Apostles althoughe they be not founde written * A pretie and sound collecti If this iudgement of S. Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God whiche are not in the scriptures and therefore there is no sufficient doctrine contayned in the scriptures wherby we may be saued (a) A great vntruthe and absurditie For all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation And (b) Nay marke how your affections moue yo to speake vntruely marke I pray you whither your affections carie you before you sayde that the Lordes day whiche was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be changed as the place and houre of prayer and the day
the words of the Apostle than eyther to S. Augustines or yours whiche sayth that if he or an Angell from heauen shoulde preache any other (1) M Doctor speaketh not of preaching another Gospell but of appoynting other rites and orders Gospel than that whiche he had preached that they shoulde holde him accursed he saythe not any contrarie or repugnant doctrine but any other Gospell But tell me why (2) Bicause it nothing pertaineth to my purpose S. Aug. mangled and not truely reported passed you by that in Augustine which he writeth to Ianuarie likewise that those thinges whiche are not contayned in the Scripture nor decreed of Councels nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the maners of Regions and of men vpon occasion offered oughte to be cutte off althoughe they seeme not to be agaynst faythe because they presse with seru e burdens the religion whiche Christe woulde haue free This sentence belyke was to hotte for you you could not carie it Therest whose names you recite whiche you say you leaue off for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherefore they bee lefte out seeing that Augustine in whome you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation This is certayne that bre tie whiche you pretende was in small commendations wyth you (3) Wordes of pleasure whiche make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of doctours and wryters to proue thinges that no man denieth translate whole leaues to so small purpose (4) Tu pe est doctori c. vpon so lighte occasions make so often digressions sometymes agaynst the vnlearnednesse sometymes agaynst the malice sometymes agaynst the intemperancie of speeche of the authors of the Admonition and euery hande whyle pulling oute the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole booke sporting your selfe with the quotations in the margent so that if all these were taken oute of your booke as winde out of a bladder we shoulde haue had it in a narrowe roome whiche is thus swelled into suche a volume and in steade of a booke of two shillings we should haue had a pamflet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whiche is alleaged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctours to measure the making of ceremonies by whiche you mighte haue had in the Scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountayne vncertayne there whiche heere are certayne there parte false whiche are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and laste of all howe they make agaynst you Io. Whitgifte I take that whiche you graunte bothe the first rule whiche is Quod neque contra fidem c. and the laste of the thrée with what interpretation soeuer you admitte them serue my turne very well and fully proue my present purpose Wherefore in graunting of them you haue graunted as muche to me as hitherto I haue desired Of the rules out of S. Paule I haue spoken before so haue I likewyse of the endes whiche the Churche must haue a respect vnto in hir decrées of orders ceremonies and gouernment wherof also I shall haue occasion to speake hereafter The seconde of the three rules you can not at any hande allowe but there is no cause why you should mislike it For Augustine did giue it as a rule méete for his tyme not for all tymes althoughe it may serue also for all times if his meaning be ioyned wyth it that is If that which is vniuersally obserued of the whole Churche be not repugnant to the worde of God and so it strengtheneth not one whit the Papistes pretended vniuersalitie In mattrrs of order ceremonies and gouernment it is sufficient if they be not repugnant to the scripture Neither do I thinke any great difference to be betwixt not repugnant to the worde of God and according to the worde That whiche is generally obserued and of that kinde that the rule meaneth is Decrees that perteyne to order comelinesse are not only humane not onely mans tradition and decree but Gods also M. Caluin teacheth you in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. that suche kinde of decrees as pertayne to order and comelynesse are not onely humane but diuine And he bringeth in for an example knéeling at publike prayers S. Augustines meaning is that he would haue no factions or contentions in the Church or any man to trouble the peace thereof by setting him selfe agaynst lawfull orders and customes of the same otherwise I thinke that he neither forbiddeth to enquire or reason of any such matter But you think that Augustine was so adicted to such decrées of the Apostles that his meaning was to haue them receyued without all exception Surely I thinke that he was so persuaded in déede of such decrées as he meaneth and speaketh of in that place But for as muche as in suche rules he hath sundrie times made suche exceptions Quod neque cóntra fidem c. therfore this rule also is to be receyued of vs according to his meaning in all suche like rules God forbid that I should not take heede to those words of the Apostle hold him accursed which shall preache any other Gospell than that which he had preached For I take him that preacheth any other Gospell to preache contrarie and repugnant doctrine to the Apostle and vndoubtedly he that teacheth any thing to be necessary to saluation which is not comprehended in the scripture teacheth a false doctrine and cleane contrarie to the doctrine of the Scripture But you do not vse this place I am sure agaynst any thing that is héere sayde Our question is not of matters pertayning to saluation but of ceremonies of externall orders and discipline Whereof S. Paule speaketh nothing in that place I make them not matters of saluation neither are they I will tell you why I passed by that whych S. Augustine writeth to Ianuary Epist. 119. and is nowe recited by you because it nothing pertayneth to my purpose and yet it is rather with me than agaynst me But let me nowe aske you an other question why do you not truly report S. Augustines S. Augustine mangled and vntruely reported by T. C. words but mayme them both before behinde and in the middest for Augustine in the wordes that immediatly go before sayth That he was muche gréeued because that many things which were more profitably commaunded in the worde of God were neglected by reason of so many presumptuous obseruations of outwarde ceremonies the omitting whereof was more greeuously punished than the breaking of Gods commaundements And vpon this occasion he concludeth thus Omnia itaque talia quae neque sanctorum c. All suche ceremonies scilicet as be impediments to the obseruing of the
of vs is mutually bound to an other to nourishe loue and charitie among our selues This we may lerne in the examples vsed before VVhat doth religion coÌ„sist in a womans vaile that by no meanes she may goe abrode bare headed or is the coÌ„maundement touching hir silence suche as it may not be broken without wickednesse or is there any mysterie in kneeling or in burying the dead that may not be omitted without great offence No truly for if such hast be required of a vvoman to help hir neighboure that she can haue no ley sure to couer hir head she doth not offende though she runne out bare headed And there is a tyme place when and vvhere it is as mete for hir to speak as it is elsewhere to hold hir peace Him also to pray standing which being letted vvith some disease can not kneele there is nothing forbiddeth To be short it is better in tyme to burie the dead than to tarie for a winding sheete or some to carie him vntil he stinke aboue the ground But there is somewhat euen in thosethings vvhich the custome of Religion lavves and decrees humanitie it self and the rule of modestie willeth vs to do to take heed of wherin if we shal through ignoraÌ„ce forgetfulnes offeÌ„d ther is no sin coÌ„mitted But if through coÌ„tempt or contumacie it is to be reproued In like maner it skilleth not what days be appointed what houres what maner of places touching the building what Psalms are to be song this day or that day And yet there must certain dayes be appointed certain houres and a place mete to receiue al if we haue any respect to keepe vnitie peace For what coÌ„fusion were it of how great coÌ„tentions braulings the seed and cause if euery man as he listeth might alter and chaunge those things which pertein to the coÌ„mon state Seing that it would neuer be broughte to passe that one thing could please all men if such matters were left indifferent and coÌ„mitted to euery mans arbitrement Now if any man repine or grudge vvill here seme wiser than it behoueth him let him coÌ„sider by what reason he can excuse his waywardnesse in the Lorde Notvvithstanding that saying of S. Paule must â—atisfie vs we haue no custome to contend neither the 1. Cor. 11. Churches of God Thus farre Caluine In whiche wordes we haue these things to consider Firste that Collections out of Caluine God hath in the Scripture fully and plainly comprehended all those things that be necessarie to saluation Secondly that in Ceremonies and externall discipline he hath not in Scripture particularly determined any thing but lefte the same to his Churche to make or abrogate to alter or continue to adde or take away as shall bee thoughte from tyme to tyme moste conueniente for the presente state of the Churche so that nothyng be doone agayust that generall rule of Sainct Paule 1. Corin. 14. Let all things be done decently and in order Thirdly that it is the dutie of a Christian man without superstition willingly to obey such constitutions not to contemne them not to neglect them muche lesse stubbornely and arrogantly to breake them Fourthly that the obseruing of them taketh not libertie from the couscience bicause they be not made to be perpetual and inuiolable but to be altered as tyme occasion and necessitie requireth Fifthly that all ought to obey suche ordinances for charitie sake though all stande not in neede of them Sixthly that if a man doe violate them by ignorance or forgetfulnesse he doth not offende if by contempt or stubbornesse he doth greately offende Seuenthly that confusion whiche is to suffer euery man to doe what he list is the seede of contention and brawling Last of all that the true ministers of God be not contentious neither yet the Churches of God These things among other I thought good to note oute of M. Caluines wordes whiche if they were diligentely considered suche contentions might soone be ended T. C. Pag. 19. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 20. Sect. 1. Why should you trust that M. Caluins iudgemeÌ„t wil weigh with them if they be Anabaptists as you accuse them if they be Donatistes if Catharists if conspired with the Papistes how can you thinke y t they wil so easily rest in M. Caluines iudgemeÌ„t which hated and confuted all Anabaptisme Donatisme Catharisme Papisme but it is true which the prouerb sayth memoreÌ„ c. he y t wil speake an vntruth had need haue a good memorie this is the force of the truth in the conscience of man that although he suppresse it pretend the contrary yet at vnwares it stealeth out For what greater testimonie could you haue giuen of them that they hate a those heresies whiche you lay to their charge than to say y t you trust M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh theÌ„ Now in deed that you be not deceiued we receiue M. Caluin weigh of him as of the notablest instrumeÌ„t y t the Lord hath stirred vp for y e purging of his Churches of the restoring of the plaine sincere interpretation of the scriptures which hath ben since the Apostles times And yet we do not so read his works y e we beleue any thing to be true bicause he saith it but so far as we caÌ„ esteme that y e which he saith doth agree with the canonicall scriptures But what gather you out of M. Caluine First that all necessarie things to saluation are conteined in the scripture who denyeth it In the second collection where you wold giue to vnderstand y e ceremonies externall discipline are not prescribed particularly by the word of God therfore left to the order of the Churche you must vnderstaÌ„d that al external discipline is not left to the order of y e Church being particularly pr scribed in y e scriptures no more than (a) You say afte that there are but these two al ceremonies are left to the order of y e Church as the sacra ments of Baptisin the supper o the Lord whereas vpon the indefinite speaking of M. Caluine saying Ceremonies externall discipline without adding all or some you go about (b) Vntruth for I haue reported his wordes to no other ende than he hathe written them subtilly to make meÌ„ beleue y t Caluin had placed the whole external discipline in y e power arbitrement of the Church For i al external discipline were arbitrarie in the choise of the Church excoÌ„munication also which is a part of it might be cast away which I think you wil not say But if y t M. Caluine were aliue to heare his senteÌ„ces (c) You shoulde haue shewed wherein his wordes ar ra ked and wryth racked and writhen to establish those things which he stroue so mightily to ouerthrowe and to ouerthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establishe what might he saye the iniurie whyche is done to him
but suche a one as had led hir whole life in all good works and with commendation how much more is that to be obserued in the minister or byshop of the Church that he be not only at the time of his choise but all other times before such a one as had lyued without any notable and open offence of those amongst whome he had hys conuersation Io. Whitgifte It is not such a commaundement as must of necessitie be perpetually kepte and The place 44. Ezechi touching Idolatrous sacrificers is not perpetuall made a generall rule for euer for it perteyneth to the iudiciall law which is not perpetuall (*) Ira. 2. cap. 6. diuis 5. Ezech. 44. as I haue before proued Moreouer why should this precept rather be perpetuall than that which goeth before that no straunger vncircumcised in hart and vncircumcised in flesh should enter into the sanctuarie or than that which followeth that the Priests when they enter in at the gates must be elothed with white linnen c Do not the circumstances of the place best declare the meaning of it The like also is to be saide to that example 2. Regum 23. The place of S. Paule 1. Tim. 3. is vntruly by you alleadged and corruptly translated The corrupte dealing of T. C. 1. Tim 3. for the words of the Apostle be not as you report them and being tried let them execute their functions as long as they remayne blamelesse But thus the Apostle saith and let them first be proued then let them minister being blamelesse the gréek word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is if in triall they be founde blamelesse then let them minister For triall may be had whether they be blamelesse or no but not whether they will so remayne Moreouer the Apostle in that place speaketh of Deacōs and not of ministers I maruell what you meane so manifestly to falsify the words of the scripture or to what purpose you haue inuented this new translation except it be to iustify that erroure of the Anabaptists that the vertue of the word and of the Sacraments doth depende vpon the good life of the Minister Certayne it is that you haue neither gréeke latine nor English text that doth so translate it Neyther do he 〈◊〉 Apostle S. Paule there speake of deposing ministers or deacons but of electing 〈◊〉 as it is manifest I doubt not but that a whoremonger after he hath repented him if other things be correspendent maye be admitted to the ministerie euen as well as Peter after his denyall was admitted to be an Apostle or Paule after that he had bene a persecutor Saint Paule would not that a Bishop should haue two wyues at once but he doth not seclude him from beyng a Byshop that hath had two wiues except you will establishe in this place the Papishe bigamie In like maner he would not haue an whoremo ger a drunkard a couetous person to be chosen a Bishop yet doth he not seclude from that function such as haue bene guiltie of these crimes and now of godly conuersation for their former offences for then shoulde he deale otherwise with them than he himselfe was dealt with neither haue you any example in the new testament of any deposed from their ministerie though they were found in many things guiltie Christ knewe that Iudas was a traitor yet did he not depose him from his Apostleship he knew that the Scribes and Phariseis were criminous in diuers pointes yet dyd he wil them to be taken and heard as gods ministers when he said in cat edra Mosis sedent Scribae c. the Scribes and Phariseis sit in Moses seate c. Mat. 23. And S. Paule knewe Math. 23. ofdiuers wicked and vngodly preachers in the Church of Philippi yet did he not will their ministerie to be taken from them but shewed himselfe to be very glad for their Phil. 1. labour and trauell taken in preaching the Gospell Phi. 1. True it is that Idolatrie is an horrible and great sinne yet doth repentance stretch Repentance stretcheth to Idolatrie vnto it which so altereth and changeth a man through the mercy of God be he neuer so defiled that it maketh him pure and cleane and shall we seclude him from ministring vnto God that is pure in the sight of God or shall we not thinke him to be a méete minister in the visible Churche that is a member of the vnuisible and electe Church In the olde law there were many things that defiled the body and made the man for a time vncleane but now all such things are cleane to those that be cleane In Tit. like maner there were then certaine crimes pertaining to the minde which could not be expiated but by corporall punishment but repentance is a medicine for all and the greatest Idolater truely repenting may become a more zealous preacher thā he that in the sight of the world neuer committed the least offence S. Paule in the choise of widdowes doth not require such a one as hath led hir whele lyfe in all good workes for how could that be at that time when they had but in one part of their life knowne Christ and professed the Gospell being therevnto conuerted by the Apostles but his meaning is that such be chosen as were knowne to haue bene diligent in all good workes that is to haue béen liberall beneficiall towardes the poore for so doth M. Caluine interpret it if you would haue none chosen to be ministers but suche as haue all their lyfe time béen blamelesse I thinke you are like to haue but a few and more like to refuse such as be verie méete and fit for that functiō But as the Apostle would not haue any admitted to the ministerie vpon a sudden tryall or conuersion so doth he not appoynt for the same the whole former time of mannes lyfe but a reasonable and sufficient time suche as may suffice for the tryall of a man in such matters Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 26. Sect. 2. 3 Pag. 27. Sect. 1. If I should stand with you whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ were a greater fault then to goe from the Gospell to Idolatrie and therin for some long space to continue as the Leuites did I should trouble you For if a man sodenly and at a pushe for feare and to saue his lyfe say and sweare he is no Christian and the same day repent him of his fault although it be a great and hainous crime yet it seemeth not to be so great as his is which not onely denyeth Christ in wordes but doth it also in decdes and worshippeth Antichrist and continueth in that worship not a day but monethes and yeares But I will answere you that euen as our sauiour Christ called S. Paule in the heate of hys persecution and when he was a blasphemer vnto the Apostleship so he hauing the lawe in his owne handes and making no
wealth is not so muche but yet I would be loth to haue it common and you may not blame me though I maynteyne that state where all men may quietly enioye their owne without confusion I know the Anabaptistes doe not only erre in their kinde of reasoning but in the right vnderstanding of the Scriptures also euen of those places wherevppon they frame their argumente But the texte sayeth playnely Omnes qui credebant c. All whiche beleeued were in one place and had all thyngs common Acto 2. 4. Quotquot Act. 2. Act. 4. enim possessores praediorum aut domorum erant c. For as manie as were possessours of landes or houses solde them c. And thoughe they were greately to be commended in sellyng their landes and possessions and in so lyghtly estéeming the riches of this worlde yet it followeth not that no man can bée a good Christian vnlesse he followe that example There are sundrie places of the Scripture that ouerthrow the Anabaptisticall communitie and therefore howesoeuer they vnderstande these examples yet can they not proue theyr errour for it is true that Zuinglius sayeth Nullius facta iuri praeiudicant examples must giue place when they be agaynste a generall lawe commaundement or right I haue not spoken one woorde of Ananias and Saphira and therefore I muse to what purpose you bryng them in neyther am I agaynste the interpretation of those places of the Actes yet doe I saye that no man is bounde of necessitie to folowe those examples excepte it were in the lyke tyme and state So that if the Anabaptistes bothe erre in the vnderstandyng of those places and in theyr kynde of reasoning also as they doe in bothe M. Doctor maye kéepe his Doctorship still and they be farre enough from their communitie The communitie that was in the Apostles tyme was Christian and moste fitte for that tyme but the same maye not nowe be vrged in the selfe same maner and forme without suspicion of Anabaptisms And it is a very good argument againste you for as the communitie vsed amongste the Christians Act. 2. 4. was godlie and yet not necessarie nor méete for all states of the Churche euen so the election then vsed was also godlie and yet not at all tymes to be practised but only in the lyke state of time Chap. 4. the fyft Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 43. Lin. 20. Sect. 1. In the seconde to the Corinthians 8. the Apostle declareth how the Churches had chosen Luke or as some thinke Barnabas to be his companion in his iourney But what maketh this for electing of ministers howe followeth this argument The Churches had chosen Luke or Barnabas to be Paules companion in his iourney therfore ministers of the worde must be elected by the people These three laste reasons are all one and the places of Scripture whiche I haue sette downe and answered be alleaged of you to proue that the election of ministers was then made by the common consent of the people and that euery congregation had authoritie to call their ministers T. C. Page 31. Sect 4. Unto the place of the. 2. epistle to the Corinthians and. 8. chapter you aske what maketh that to the election of the ministers But why do not you say here as you did in the other place that the Apostle meaneth nothing else but the putting on of the handes of them which ordayned For the same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is here vsed that was there and this place doth manifestly and without all contradiction conuince your vayne signifycation that you make of it in the other place and the vntruth wherein you say that the scripture vseth this word for a solemne manner of ordering ministers by putting on of handes For heere it is saide that he that was ioyned with Paule was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the Church and it is manifest that the impositiō of hāds was not by the Church and people but by the elders and ministers as it appeareth in S. Paule to Timothie 1. Tim. 4. 2. Tim. 1. Now to come to that which you make so light of for say you how followeth this The Church chose Luke or Barnabas to be companion of Paules iourney Ergo the Churches must choose their ministers It followeth very well for if it were thought meete that S. Paule shoulde not choose himselfe of his owne authoritie a companiō to help him being an Apostle is there any Archbishop that shall dare take vpon him to make a minister of the Gospell being so many degrees both in authoritie and in all gifts needefull to discerne and trieout or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the Gospell inferioure to S. Paule And if S. Paule would haue the authoritie of the Church to ordayne the Minister that should ayde him in other places to the building and gathering of other Churches howe much more dyd he thinke it meete that the Churches should choose their owne Minister which shoulde gouerne them which things may be also said of the election in the first of the Acts. For there the * Vntr Church first chose two whereof one should be an Apostle which should not be minister of that Church but should be sent into all the world so that always the Apostles haue shunned to do any thing of theyr owne willes without the knowledge eyther of those Churches where they instituted any gouernours or if it were for the behoofe of those places where there were no Churches gathered yet woulde they ordayne none but by the consente of some other Churche whiche was alreadye established Io. Whitgifte Of the acceptation of this worde in the. 14. of the Acts I haue spoken sufficiently This place is not one whit contrary to any thing that is said in that matter for in the 14. of the Acts it is referred to the appointing of ministers of the worde and in thys place of the secōd Cor. 8. it is applyed to the sending of some with Paule to gather the beneuolence of the Churches and to carrie the same to the poore Saints Now though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may signify the imposition of hands or the whole action of ordering ministers when it is referred to that matter yet doth it not follow that it should alwayes signify so to whatsoeuer it is applyed But take it as you list it is as well spoken of one alone as of many as the place Act. 10. manifestly declareth and therfore doth not of necessitie signify an election made by the people except some other word be ioyned with it to expresse the same as there is in this 2. Cor. 8. For thus the Apostle saithe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which addition should not haue néeded if this worde 2. Cor. 8. alone had of necessitie signifyed in the scripture any such election as you woulde haue it to do In the argument there is no sequele at all for it was very conuenient and méete
for it behoued the Apostles to be chosen immediatly of God In the election of Deacons Luke hath not set downe what the Church did obserue But in another place we may gather by Paule that they of Asia vsed the holding vp of hands which manner was vsuall with the most of the Graecians wherefore there is no cause why any man should ouercuriously prescribe here any certaine rule c. Now to reherse what varietie hath bin vsed in the Churches touching this election Uarietie vsed in the electiōs in y e pr tiue Churches Caluine were néedelesse it shall be sufficient only to set downe that which M. Caluine speaketh of it in his Insti cap. 8. Sect. 60. c. wher first he declareth that the rule of S. Paule touching the qualities of a minister is to be obserued and that he is to be examined according to the same Then doth he shew how that there hath not always one order bin obserued touching the electours and appointers for sometimes none was chosen without the consent of the whole people and other sometimes the people committed the choise to the Bishop and ministers or Seniors except it were in the election of the Bishop And sometimes onely the ministers did first choose and then offer those whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senat or to the chiefe rulers who ratifyed the election if they liked it if not then did they choose out other c. This varietie of electing ministers doth M. Caluine declare in that place It appeareth in the. 35. or as some counteth 36. of the canons attributed to the Apostles Can. Apost 36 that Bishops were not then chosen by the consent of the people for that canon speaketh of such Byshops as being appoynted to some Church were not receyued by the people and yet remayned Bishops still To the like effect is the. 18. can Con. Ancyra Con Ancyr can 18. Con. Antioch can 17. 18. Con Laodic can 12. Can. 13. T. C. seeketh a commaundement in the Ceremoniall law for the election of the ministers of the Gospell The place Numbers 8. proueth not his purpose and the. 17. and. 18. of the Councell of Antioch In the. 12. Canon of the Councell of Laodicea it is decréed that the Metropolitane with other Byshops adioyning should haue the election of Byshops and of such as are to be preferred to a cure And the. 13. Can. of the same councell doth forbid that the elections of ministers should be committed to the people So that you sée your manner of electing by the people not to haue bin in all Churches in all purer times It appeareth that you were put to a pinch for a commaundement to establish your manner and kind of electing ministers when you are constrayned to fetch one out of the booke of Numbers and that nothing at all perteyning to your purpose For what one word is there in that place that hath any shadow of your election First the people there did not elect the Leuits Secondly they laid their hands vpon them which I am sure you will not haue the people to do in the ordeyning of Byshops for you say that only elders and ministers vsed to lay on their hands So that this place of the Booke of Numbers doth commaund that whiche you will not admitte and speaketh not one word of that for the which you do alledge it But tell me in good earnest will you bind vs to the obseruation of the Ceremonial law also as you haue done before to the iudiciall For what else is there in that whole chapter but lawes touching ceremonies and in that place by you alleadged especially for there he speaketh of the manner of purifying of the Leuites and of their offering he speaketh not of any election For God himselfe had chosen the Leuites before for the first borne of the children of Israell cap. 3. I would to God men would but indifferently consider how vndiscréetely you alleadge the scriptures lest you should séeme to be voyde of scripture You say the people by laying on their hands did by that ceremonie consecrate them Would you haue the people to consecrate ministers by laying on of hands do you not care what absurdities and contrarieties you speake you make a distinction in that whiche followeth betwixte ordeyning electing and you say that election perteyneth to the people ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 40. lin vlt. c. Pag. 31. sect 4. And in another place that the imposition of handes was not by the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers But if this be a commaundement for vs now to obserue then must you recant that saying I doe admitte this Scripture as a portion of the Ceremoniall lawe but I doe not The dealings of T. C. tend to Iudaisme admit it as a perpetuall commaundement bicause I knowe the Ceremoniall lawe is abrogated excepte you will haue all those Ceremonies whiche were vsed in that place and are conteyned in the same commaundement as of sprinkling them with water of shauing their bodies of washing their clothes of laying their handes on the heads of bullocks c. practized in ordering ministers of the Gospel Neither is this any title of Catabaptistrie but yours smelleth of Iudaisme for you bounde vs before to the Iudiciall law and now you will bind vs to the Ceremoniall also what remayneth but to say that Christ is not yet come Circumcision is a figure of baptisme but the Leuiticall priesthoode is no figure of the ministerie of the Gospell therfore we may well proue the baptizing of Infantes by circumcision but we can not proue the ordering of ministers of the Gospell by the ceremonies vsed about the Leuites Those examples of the Apostles doe well proue the baptizing of children bicause Gene. 17. Mat. 28. they be grounded vpon these generall places of the Scriptures Ego sum Deus tuus c. I am thy God and the God of thy seede c. and Mat. 28. Baptizantes omnes gentes Baptizing all nations The contention is not whether discipline c. be necessarie but whether one kinde be necessarie Of discipline also and gouernment I haue something spoken before and minde to speake hereafter when further occasion is offered in this place it is answere sufficient to say that the contention is not whether discipline or gouernment be necessarie in the Churche or no but whether this or that kinde of discipline and gouernment be necessarie and whether there be one certayne kinde and forme of discipline and gouernment to be vsed in the Churche at all times and in all places As for Pastors Bishops Doctors Deacons c. they be necessarie ministers in the Churche but it doth not therfore follow that there must be alwayes one kinde and forme of gouernment Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 1. And I adde that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kinde of electing and calling
that that they whiche are most pure ought to be chosen c. For else why dothe he adde and saye sancimus we haue decreed and not rather they haue decréed But the words that follow are most playne quoties sacerdotalem sedem c. as oft as it shall happen that the roome of a Priest shall be voyd the inhabitants of that citie shall giue their voices of three c. for where did the Apostles euer appoint that thrée should stand in the election or what example haue you of it in the whole scripture so that you sée héere no one prescript rule or example of the Apostles in all poynts folowed but that order to be taken and law made by the Emperoure whiche he thought for that state and time of the Church to be most conuenient In Nouellis he séemeth to declare what is meant by the inhabiters of that citie for Constitutio 123. thus it is written Sequentes igitur ea c. Folowing therefore those thinges whiche are decreed in the holy Canons wee make this pragmaticall lawe by the whyche we decree that as ofte as it shall be necessary to ordeyne a Byshop the Cleargie and primates of the citie for the whiche the Byshop is to be ordeyned shall assemble togyther and the Euangelies being layde before them shall agree and determine vppon three persons And euery one of them shall sweare by the holy word of God and that to be enrolled with their determination that they haue not chosen these men eyther for rewarde or for promise or for friendship or fauour or for any other affection but only bycause they know them to be of the true and catholike faith and of honest conuersation and that they are aboue fiue and thirtie yeares olde So that it is plaine that by the inhabitants of the citie he meaneth the Cleargie and the chiefe persons of the citie It followeth in the same constitution Vt ex tribus illis personis quae d cretis hoc modo eliguntur melior ordinetur electione iudicio eius qui ordinandi ius habet That of those three which are in this sort chosen the best may be ordeyned by the election and iudgement of him that hath the authoritie to ordeyne And this last clause may be an interpretation also of the meaning of that constitution ex codice that is that the inhabitants choose thrée of whome the Metropolitane should choose one to be Byshop for it is euident that the Metropolitane had ius ordinandi and that lawe in codice differeth not one whit from this constitution The words of Carolus Magnus make with me rather than against me for in that he saith secundùm statuta canonum de propria dioecesi according to the statutes of the Canons of that diocesse he plainly signifyeth that in sundry diocesse there be sundry kinds and maners of elections else would he haue said secundùm statuta canonum Apost according to the statutes of the canons of the Apostles or sacrae scripturae of the holy scripture or such like But that which followeth in the same law maketh the matter manifest Praecipimus etiam omnibus c. we will also and commaund all those which are subiect to our iurisdiction that no man attempt to spoyle the priuiledges of the Churches Monasteries or the Churches themselues c meaning no doubt touching elections That of Ludouike dist 63. declareth also that it was in the Emperoures power to alter the manner of elections or to establishe them for else to what purpose were these lawes and Confirmations made All this verifyeth my assertion and proueth playnely that the manner and forme of calling and electing Ministers is and hathe bene in the power of the ciuill Magistrate to order as shall be moste expedient for the present state of the Churche if the Prince thinke it conuenient that the people shoulde haue voyces in suche elections they maye so haue if not there is no lawe of God dothe bynde them to it and that doe all those lawes of Emperours manifestly proue Chap. 6. the eight Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 4. 5. Platina also in the lyfe of Pope Adrian the seconde writeth that Ludouike the second by his letters (a) An yntruth for he only com mendeth them for so doing he doth not commaund them to do o. commaunded the Romains that they should choose their owne bishop not loking for other mens voyces which being strangers could not so well tell what was done in the common weale where they were strangers and that it apperteyneth to the citizens The same Platina witnesseth in the lyfe of Pope Leo the. 8. that when the people of Rome were earnest with the Emperour Otho the fyrst that he would take away one Pope Iohn y t liued verie licentiously riotously place an other the same Emperor answered that it perteined to the clergie and people to choose one and willed them that they should choose and he would approue it and when they had chosen Leo and after put him out without cause and chose one Pope Bennet he compelled them to take Leo againe Wherby appeareth that in those estates where Magistrates were Christian and where the estate was moste of all Monarchicall that is subiecte to ones gouernmente and also when the Church put out any without good cause that then the Magistrates should compell the Churches to doe their dutie In deede the Bishop of Rome gaue the election then into the Emperou his handes bycause of the lightnesse of the people as Platina maketh mention but that is not the matter for I doe nothing else here but shew that the elections of the ministers by the Churche were vsed in the times of the Emperours and by their consentes And seyng that Otho confessed it perteyned not vnto him it is to be doubted whether hee tooke it at the Bishop his handes Io. Whitgifte You haue not truly reported the wordes of Platina in the first place for he sayth Platina falsifyed by T. C not that the Emperour Ludouike did commaund the Romains that they should choose their own Bishop but that he commended them for their godlie and sound choise His wordes be these Superuenere à Ludouico Imperatore literae quibus Romanos admodùm laudat quòd summum Platina in vita Adriani 2. Pontificem sanctè integrè creassent There came letters from Ludouike the Emperoure wherin he praiseth the Romans very muche bicause they had holily and syncerely created the high Priest c. But Platina declareth how tumultuous an election that was and howe iniuriously the Emperours Embassadors were secluded from the same hauing therin interest and although the Emperoure was contente to put vp that iniurie and to commend that election peraduenture for some worldly respect yet it is manifest that then the Bishops of Rome began to vsurpe vppon the authoritie of the Emperour and to seclude him from hauing any interest in their elections M. Bale Bale speaking of this election
a window nay what a gate is opened heere to (a) The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you c 〈…〉 for Anabaptists to confirme their fantasticall opinion wherein they hold that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the plough tayle to the pulpit to preach the word of God If you say it is Ambrose saying not yours I answer vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betweene the Apostles times and these For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betweene the Apostles times and ours Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bin proued that there was none that tooke vpon him the ministerie in the church but by lawfull calling what is this but to cast dust and dirt of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cotage of wood strawe and stubble to haue some estimation which could haue none the other standing For in effect so you do when to vphold a corrupt vse that came in by the tyrannie of the Pope you go about to discredite the orders and institutions whiche were vsed in the Apostles times and that with suche manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte This is a very slender answer to Ambrose whose authoritie both for his excellent Ambrose vnworthyly r 〈…〉 ted by T. C. learning and vertue and also for his antiquitie is not to be so contemptuously reiected The selfesame word and to the same effect doth Georgius maior in his commentaries vpon the first to the Philip. recite out of one Rabanus Byshop of Moguntia who also borowed them as it should séeme of Ambrose Maior alloweth well of them and maketh no suche exclamations as you do and yet a man knowne to be learned and sound in religion as his works declare Likewise the authors of the Centuries 4. Cent. cap. 7. alledge this same place of Ambrose and allow of it and therefore the matter is not so heynous as you make it Anabaptistes pretende a kind of calling by the â—eople The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you nowe contend for as it appeareth in the. 3. booke of M. Bullinger aduer Anabap. cap. 4. whose words be these suam verò vocationem c. They affirme that their calling is iust bycause they be called and sent of their 〈◊〉 Churches but our vocation to be vnlawful which is made of the magistrate and therefore that they are sent of God but we of the world and of men You know that this was one of the first things that the rusti all Anabaptists moued sedition for and that they required it of the magistrates as Sleydan declareth li. 5. ex his postulatis saith he primuÌ„ erat vt 〈◊〉 ipsis liceret ecclesiae ministros eligere qui verbum dei purè doceant Of those requests the firste was that they might choose ministers of the Church which might teach the worde of God purely You sée therefore that the Anabaptists many of them require a vocation and one not much vnlike that which you striue for in this place and at this time When Ambrose saith that it was permitted to euery man to preach the Gospell c. he dothe not say that it was permitted vnto them withoute some kinde of calling if you will vewe the place well and consider it at large as it is in Ambrose your heate will be something quenched I doubt not It is no derogation at all from the Apostolicall Church to haue the orders of it in diuers points altered for though suche were most conueniente then for that state time and persons yet are they not so now in respect of this state time and persons so that the forme of the Apostolicall Churches was then perfyte and absolute though now it admitte in the respect of diuers circumstances alteration Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. vlt. Musculus also in his common places answering to this question Musculus why that ministers of the word are not chosen now by the ministers and the people as they were in the primitiue Church but appoynted by the Magistrate saith thus talis tum ecclesiarum erat status vt aliter noÌ„ essent eligendi ministri quia Christiano magistratu destituebantur Si reuocas temporum illorum mores primùm conditiones statum quoque illorum reuoca Such vvas then the state of Churches that they coulde choose their ministers no othervvise bycause they had no Christian Magistrates If thou vvouldest haue the manners and customes of those times obserued then must thou call backe their conditions and state T. C. Page 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. vlt. Sect 39. Sect. 1 2. The place is to commoÌ„ which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by himsel e in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers whiche were brought in do bt of their calling bycause they were not chosen by their Churches speaking of the vse of the Church in choosing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly confessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consente of the people and or eyned and confirmed of the seignioures Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the Church and that thrusting the Pastor vpon the Churche not being chosen of it doth agree to a Church that is not free but subiecte to bond ge Fourthly that this forme of choise by the Churche maketh much both to that that the minister may gouern his slocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeld themselues to be easlier ruled than when one commeth against their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayth that they are altogyther certeyne and such as cannot be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the Church and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which should after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more cleerely appeare that his iudgement is nothing lesse than to confirme this election he setteth downe their election in Bernland whiche he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the primitiue Churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one maÌ„ but al the ministers in the citie of Berue do choose
contrary to the present state and that enelineth to libertie would vsually elect suche as would féede their humours So that the Prince neyther should haue quiet gouernment neyther could be able to preserue the peace of the Church nor yet to plant that religion that he in conscience is perswaded to be ncere As for the authoritie of isalowing their elections which you giue vnto him it is but an intollerable trouble and besides that he shall not vnderstand their doings or if he doth yet may he not depriue them of their libertie in choosing so that you make his authoritie in effect nothing Moreouer his Churches and whole kingdome shoulde be filled with Anabaptists Libertines Papists Puritanes and an hundreth sects mo or euer he were aware for who will complayne of him whome the people do phansi be he neuer so vnméete a person 3 My thirde reason is taken out of your owne booke Fol. 25. where you say that the If the people should choose the inferioure in gifts shuld be iudge of the superiour Pag. 25. lin 3. Archdeacon may not be iudge of the aptnesse and ablenesse of the Pastor bycause he is inferi re to the Pastor both in calling and gifts which if it be true then surely may not the people haue any thing to do in the election of the Pastor being in all respects much more inferioure vnto him than the Archdeacon is for to haue interest in electing is to be admitted to iudge of his meetenesse and aptnesse that is to be admitted 4 It would be a cause why many Churches shoulde be longer destitute of their Popular elections a cause of long want of pastors c Pastors than is conuenient for if an vnméete man were chosen and an appeale made to the next Pastours and from them to the next Synode prouinciall and then the parishioners that will not yéeld excommunicated and after excōmunication complayned of to the Prince and then driuen to a new election and in the same peraduēture as wayward as they were before whilest I say all this were in doing besides the maruellous schismes contentions brawlings and hatred that must of necessitie in the meane time be among them two or thrée yeares might soone be spent for all these things cannot be in due order well done in lesse time al which time the parishes must be destitute of a pastor burne with those mischiefes that I haue before recited 5 It would make the gouernment of the Church popular which is the worst kind Popular election a cause of a popular gouernment of gouernment that can be For it is true that M. Caluine saith cap. 20. Instit. Procliuis est à regno c. The fall from a kingdome into a tyrannie is very redy and the change from the gouernment of the best into the Factions of a fewe is not much harder but the fall from a popular state into a sedi ion is of all other most easie 6 The people as I haue said before through affection and want of iudgement are The people easily led by affection easily brought by ambitious persons to giue their consent to vnworthy men they are soone moued by the request of their frends and of such as they eyther feare or loue to do anything as may appeare in sundry things cōmitted vnto thē of great importāce yea sometime when by oth they are bound to deale without al affection or parcialitie 7 By this meanes they would thinke to haue their pastor bound vnto them so that A hindrance to the Pastor in doing his duty they would take it disdainefully to be reproued by him according as his duetie would require Againe the pastoure considering their good will in preferring of him woulde not so freely 〈◊〉 them nor willingly displease them 8 To conclude the people are for the most part rude and ignorant carelesse also in The people vnfit to be iudges in such cases Chrys. 2. in 〈◊〉 suche matters and more me te to be ruled than to rule For as Chrysostome de eth Populus est quiddam tumultus c. The people is a certaine thing full of tumult and sturres consisting and rashly compacted for the most part of folly oftentimes tossed with variable and contrary iudgement like to the waues of the sea c. These and a great number mo reasons may be alleadged why the people are to be s uded from the election of their Pastors and yet do I not so vtterly seclude them from such elections but that if they haue any thing to obiect agaynste him that is to be ordeyned they might be heard which order is prescribed in the booke of making ministers and that is asmuche as can be required Althoughe I doe not condemne those Churches wherin this is safely committed vnto them for I only speake of the present estate of this Churche of Englande The reason why I doe thinke the Bishops to be the fittest to haue both the allowing and ordeyning of such as are to be ministers I haue expressed in my answere to the Admonition And they are not as yet by better reasons confuted Of ministers hauing no pastorall charge of ceremonies vsed in ordeining ministers of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes Tract 4. Of ministers admitted a place being not voyd Chap. 1. The first Diuision The Admonition The seuenth Then none admitted to the ministerie but (u) Act. 1. 25. a place was voyd afore hand to which he should be called Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 47. Sect. 1. 2. TO proue this you cite in the margent the first of the Acts wher it is declared howe Mathias was chosen in the place of Iudas to make vp the number of the. xij Apostles Surely this is but a slender reason Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas Ergo no man must be admitted into the ministerie excepte a place before hande be voyde to the which he should be called Euery meane sophister will laugh at the childishnesse of this argument Mathias was chosen to be an Apostle and not to any certaine cure and therfore this example proueth nothing T. C. Page 42. Sect. 4. The reason is of greater force than you woulde seeme to make it for as the. xij place was to Mathias so is a certain Church vnto a Pastor or Minister as the Apostles ordeined none vnto that place before it was voyd so ought not the Bishop ordeyn any vntil there be a Churche voyde and destitute of a pastor And as the Apostles ordeined not any Apostle further than they had testimonie Act. ▪ of the word of God as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election so ought no Bishop ordeyn any to any function which is not in the scripture appointed But there are by the word of God at this tyme no ordinarie ministers Ecclesiastical which be not local and tyed to one congregation therfore this sending abrode of ministers whiche haue no places is vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte As
theyr reason is farre from good reason so are your similitudes farre from prouing the same the Logitians say Soluitur sunilitudo ostensa dissimilitudine First ther is great difference betwixte the office of an Apostle and the office of a Pastor as you must néedes confesse Then is there also difference in the number for the Apostles whiche were chosen of Christe to be witnesses of his Resurrection were twelue and therfore the number certain but the number of Preachers and Pastors is not limited but the mo the better Thirdly there was one chosen in the place of Iudas that the Scripture might be fulfilled as Peter saith Act. 1. but there is no such thing in the election of Pastors other ministers Moreouer it was the twelfth place in number that Mathias was chosen vnto and not any locall place such as pastors take charge of Wherfore except you can make a certayn number and no certain number a local prescript and definite cure and a generall charge without prescription of any certain place all one or at the least verie like this argument Mathias was chosen into the place of Iudas ergo no man muste bee admitted into the ministerie excepte he haue a Cure muste of necessitie be a very childishe and fonde argument And how ofte shall I tell you that to reason à facto ad ius of an example to make a generall rule is a very vnskilfull kinde of rasoning excepte there be some generall rule and commaundement according to that example But was not Paule added to the number of the Apostles though there were no Some admitted to the ministerie a place beeing not voyde place voyde Were not also Barnabas Act. 14. Epaphroditus Phil. 2. Andronicus and Iunia Rom. 16. called Apostles I might therefore as wel reason thus Paule Barnabas c. were called to be Apostles when there was no place voyde Ergo some maye be called to the preaching of the Gospell though they haue no certayne cure But let vs sée how you will iustifie this assertion that there are no ordinarie ministers ecclesiasticall which be not locall and tyed to one congregation c. For I vtterly denie it in that sense that you speake it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 5. And that it may the better appeare that those functions doe onely remayne whiche are appoynted to one certayne place and that the Reader maye haue the clearer and playner vnderstanding of all this matter all the whole ecclesiasticall function maye be well deuided first into extraordinarie or those that endured for a time and into ordinarie whiche are perpetuall Of the firste sorte are the Apostles and Euangelistes whiche the Lorde vsed for a time as it were for chiefe Masons and principall buylders of his Churche as well to laye the foundations of Churches where none were as also to aduaunce them to suche forwardnesse and height vntill there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fitte pastors Elders and Deacons And that beeing done they went from those places into others which thing may be perceyued by the continuall storie of the Actes of the Apostles and by diuers sentences which are founde in the Epistles of S. Paule And therfore also when the Churches haue bin by Antichrist euen rased from the foundations God hath stirred vp Euangelists euen immediatly by his spirite without any calling of men to restore his Churches agayne of whiche sorte was Master Wickli e in our Countrey M. Hus and Hierome of Prage in Bohemia Luther and Zuinglius in Germanie c. And after this sort God may at his good pleasure work when he purposeth to set in his Gospell in any nation where the whole face of the earth is couered with the darknesse of ignorance and want of the knowledge of God Io. Whitgifte Althoughe you can not warrant by the Scriptures this distinction of ordinarie and In what respect the Apostolical function was extraordinary extraordinarie ecclesiasticall functions yet I thinke the Apostolicall function was extraordinarie in respect that it had for the time certayne especiall properties as to beare witnesse of the resurrection of Christ and of his assention whiche they dyd sée with their eyes also to plant to found Churches Likewise to go throughout the whole worlde These I say were temporall and extraordinarie and so was the Apostleship in this respect but yet ordinarie in respect of their chiefe function which was to preache the Gospell and to gouerne the Churches whiche they had planted Likewise Euangelistes haue an ordinarie function neyther is there any cause why it should be called a temporall office but onely in respect of writing the Gospell for there is none that thinketh the office of preaching to be eyther extraordinarie or temporall But I pray you let me aske you one question why should not the office of Seniors be aswell extraordinarie and temporall as the office of an Apostle or an Euangelist for as you saye that the Apostleship and Euangelistship remayned vntil there might be gotten for the finishing of the buylding and house of the Churche fytte Pastors c. So say I that the office of Seniors and Elders might remayne in the Churche vntill there were christian Princes and Magistrates by whome the people of God might be kepte in peace and quietnesse and the Churches of Christ more perfectly gouerned And wel assured I am that there are as good reasons for this as there are for the other For as in the place of the Apostles Euangelistes c. are succéeded Bishops Pastors Doctors so I may say that in the place of Elders and Seniors are come Christian Princes and Magistrates As for this parte of the Apostles function to visite suche Churches as were before planted and to prouide that suche were placed in them as were vertuous and godly Pastors I knowe it remayneth still and is one of the chiefe partes of What part of the Apostles function remayneth the Bishops function as shall hereafter more at large appeare I graunte that Master Hus Hierome of Prage c. were stirred vp euen by God to preache his truthe and open the doore of his worde agayne yet were they called to some function of the Churche before althoughe that function were for the moste parte wicked and the Church almost wholly corrupted with superstition and errors But why you shoulde rather call them Euangelistes than Apostles Prophetes Pastors or Doctors I knowe not especially séeing some of them had ordinarie charges Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 1. Of this sorte of extraordinarie functions are the Prophets also which besides a singular dexteritie and readinesse of expounding the Scriptures had also the gifte of telling things to come whiche bicause it is not nowe ordinarily I thinke there is none will denie but it is an extraordinarie calling for the other two of the Apostles and Euangelistes it shall appeare more at large hereafter by occasion giuen
by M. Doctor that they are but for a time Io. Whitgifte If you meane Prophetes in the respecte of the gifte of telling thinges to come Act. 11. suche as Agabus was then be they temporall but yet ordinarie for the tyme wherin Prophetes in some respecte ordinary they were But if you meane Prophets in respecte of their dexteritie and readinesse in expounding the Scriptures suche as Barnabas was and Simon Lucius Act. 13. c. and Saule Likewyse suche as Iudas and Silas Actes 15. and suche as the Apostle Act. 15. S. Paule speaketh of 1. Corinth 14. I sée no cause why eyther the calling 1. Cor. 14. should be extraordinary or the â—ffice and gifte temporall excepte you haue a libertie to make temporall and perpetuall ordinarie and extraordinarie what you please But seeing you woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture I pray you proue this that you haue sayde eyther of the Aposâ—les Euangelisâ—s or Prophetes by the Scripture séeing you teache that of them which seemeth to be contrary vnto the Scripture Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect 2. The ordinarie and continuall functions of the Churche are also deuided into two partes for eyther they are they that gouerne or take charge of the whole Churche as are those which are called Elders or they which take charge of one parte of the Churche whiche is the poore of euery Churche as are those which are called Deacons Those agayne that be called Presbyteri which we tearme Elders of the Churche and haue to doe with the whole Churche are eyther those whiche teache and preache the worde of God and gouerne too or else whiche gouerne onely and do not teache or preache Of the first kinde are Pastors and Doctors Or the second are those which are called by the common name of Elders or auncientes Of all this ordinarie function I shall haue occasion to speake and of euery one shall appeare that which I haue sayde before that they are no vncertayne and vndefinite ministeries but suche as are limitted vnto a certayne Churche and congregation And first of all for the Pastor or Bishop whiche is heere mentioned whiche name soéuer we consider of them they doe foorthwith assoone as they are once eyther spoken or thought of imply and inferre a certayne and definite châ—rge beeing as the Logitians terme them actuall relatiues For what shepheard can there be vnlesse he haue a flocke and howe can he be a watcheman vnlesse he haue some citie to looke vnto Or howe can a man be a master vnlesse he haue a seruaunt or a father vnlesse he haue a childe Nowe if you will saye that they haue a charge and they haue flocks and cities to attende and watche vpon for a whole shire or prouince or realme are their flockes and their Cities and their charges Io. Whitgifte This diuision also is of your owne inuenting neyther haue you any mention of Seniors as you call them or of Deacons in that fourth Chapter to the Ephesi whiche you would haue to be so perfecte a rulè of ecclesiasticall functions As for Pastors and Doctors you knowe that diuers bothe auncient and late writers as namely Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and Bucer c. do confounde them and the reason that Hieroine vseth can not be well denyed because the Apostle sayth not as he dyd before of the other alios Pastores alios Doctores some Pastors Eph. 4. and other some Doctors but he ioyneth them togither and sayth alios Pastores Doctores some Pastors and Doctors M reouer I sée not howe you can iustifie your diuision of Seniors by the worde of God as I shall further declare in that place where Tract 17. you more largely speake of them In the meane time I sée no reason why your vnpreaching and vnministring Seniors shoulde haue any perpetuitie in the Churche more than Apostles for the cause that I haue before alleadged neyther haue you yet proued that the Deacons office is onely to prouide for the poore you haue examples to the contrarie as I haue declared in my Answere To be shorte I vnderstande not howe you can make Doctors gouernours of any seuerall parishes and Churches except you will make them Pastors But bicause you onely speake héere and proue nothing I will differre a further answere vnti l I heare more sounde argumentes You saye a shepheard can not be vnlesse he haue a flocke c. all which is true but he is also a shepheard that hath mo flockes and he is a shepheard that hathe a generall care and ouersight of many shepheards and many flockes For he that hathe many flockes and many shepheards may haue one master shepheard to sée that all the rest doe their duties and that the shéepe be kepte in good order And thoughe euery seuerall Citie haue seuerall watchemen whiche watche by course yet maye there be one that hathe an especiall care ouer all and is appoynted to see the rest do their duties So one master maye haue many seruauntes one father many children Wherefore if you vse this reason to improue the office of a Bishop it lacketh mighte if to proue that a Pastour muste haue a flocke no man dothe denie it but if to conclude that no man maye preache vnlesse he haue a certayne flocke there is no sequele at all in it for first you muste proue that the onely office of a Pastor is nowe remayning in the Churche and that no man can be minister of the words and Sacraments except he be a Pastor of some certayne flocke for that doe I constantly denie Chapter 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 3. First of all in your reading ministers that is vntrue for they goe not to eade in all Churches but arrie till they be hyred in one And therfore when the Bishop hath layde his hande of Petitio principij them â–ª they are no more Ministers than before his hande came vpon them bicause they haue no charges and therefore the patrone or person that hireth them to reade and setteth them a worke are their Bishops and make them ministers and not the Bishop of the Diocesse Io. Whitgifte These be but words grounded vpon this false principle that none oug te to be admitted into the ministerie but suche as haue a certayne cure and charge which you are neuer able to proue eyther by Scripture or good reason but the contrarie is manyfest by bothe Chapter 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 43. Sect. 4. Secondarily for those that preache to haue a whole Diocesse or Prouince or Realme to be their flocke or Citie to attende vpon is contrarie to the pollicie or good husbandrie of all those that woulde eyther haue their Citie safe or their flockes sounde For who are they whyche woulde appoynte one for the watche of a thousande townes or cities when as all they whiche loue their safetie woulde rather haue for euery citie many watchemen
muste learne that there bee not onely Pastors in the Churche but also Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Doctors Ephes. 4. 1. Cor. 12. who all are called ministers and haue their place in the Churche of Christe as it shall be proued if you denie it T. C. Pag. 45. Sect. 1. This passeth all the diuinitie that euer I redde that there are nowe Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruels if you proue that as you saye you wil if any denie it I denye it proue you it Io. Whitgifte Apostles Then haue you not redde muche diuinitie for if it be true that the Apostle Saincte Paule in the fourth to the Ephesians dothe make a perfecte platforme of a Churche and a full rehersall of the offices therein conteyned as you say he dothe then can I not vnderstande howe you can make those offices rather temporall than the office of the Pastors and Doctors And forasmuche as you so greatly contemne authoritie and woulde haue all thinges proued by Scripture lette mée heare one worde of the same that dothe but insinuate these offices to be temporall The place it selfe séemeth to importe a continuance of these functions vntill the comming of Ephes. 4. Christe For he sayeth He therfore gaue some to be Apostles and some Prophetes and some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Teachers for the gatheryng together of the Sainctes for the woorke of the ministerie c. vntill wee all meete together in the vnitie of faithe and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfecte man and vnto the measure of the age and fulnesse of Christe c. I am perswaded that you can not shew any lyke place whiche dothe so playnely importe the abrogatyng of them as thys 1. Cor. 12. 14. dothe make for their continuaunce I haue besyde that place to the Ephesians the twelfth of the firste to the Corinth and the. 14. where he speaketh of Prophets as of perpetuall ministers in the Churche of Christe I knowe that there were certayne thynges in the Apostles whiche were proper vnto themselues as theyr callyng whyche was immediatly from God their commission to goe into the whole worlde the power of woorkyng miracles to bée witnesses of the Resurrection and of the Ascention c. but to preache the woorde of God in places where néede requireth though the same be not peculiarly committed to them or to gouerne Churches alreadie planted I sée no cause why it shoulde not be perpetuall Euangelists Lykewise the office of the Euangelist if it be taken for the writing of the gospell then it is ceased But if it be taken for preaching to the people playnely and simply as (a) Bull. in 4. ad Ephes. Bullinger thinketh or generally for preaching the gospell as (b) Musc. Tit. de ver minist in locis com Musculus supposeth in whiche sense also Paule sayde to Timothie 2. Timo. 4. doo the worke of an Euangelist Or for preaching more feruently and zealously than other as (c) Bucer in 4. Ephes. Bucer sayeth then I see no cause at all why it may not still remaine in the Church Moreouer Prophetes if they be taken for suche as haue the gifte of foreshewyng things to come then be they not in all tymes of the Churche but if they be Prophets 1. Cor. 14. suche as Saincte Paule speaketh of 1. Corin. 14. such I saye as haue an especiall gyfte in interpretyng the Scriptures whether it bée in expoundyng the mysteries thereof to the learned or in declaryng the true sense thereof to the people I vnderstande not why it is not as perpetuall as the Pastor or Doctor Thus you sée that I haue bothe Scripture and reason on my syde and to the ende you maye perceyue that I am not destitute of the consent also of learned Ambrose men in thys matter I will sette downe the opinions of one or two Ambrose vpon these wordes Ad Ephes. 4. Et ipse dedit quosdam quidem Apostolos c. sayeth thus The Apostles are Bishops Prophets be interpreters of the Scriptures althoughe in the beginning there were Prophetes as Agabus and the foure Virgins Prophetesses as it is in the Actes of the Apostles c. yet nowe interpreters bee called Prophets Euangelistes bee Bucerin 4. Ephe. Deacons as Philip for althoughe they bee no Priestes yet maye they preache the Gospell without a chaire as both Stephanus and Philippe before named Bucer vppon the Fol. 42. sect vlt. same place sayth that there bée Euangelistes nowe and you your selfe fol. 42. confesse that Hus Ierome of Prage Luther Zuinglius c. were Euangelistes Peter Martyr in his P. Martyr Commentaries vpon the. 12. to the Romaines sayth that the Apostle there describeth those functions and giftes whyche are at all tymes necessarie for the Churche And in that place the Apostle mentioneth Prophecying M. Caluine in his Institut Caluine cap. 8. doth confesse that God hath stirred vp Apostles or Euangelistes since that tyme of the Primitiue Churche and that hee hathe doone so lykewyse euen nowe in thys tyme. M. Bullinger vpon the place of the fourth to the Ephe. sayeth that the woordes Bullinger bee confounded and that an Apostle is also called a Prophete a Doctor an Euangeliste a minister and a Bishoppe and a Bishoppe an Euangeliste and a Prophete c. To bée shorte it is thus written in the Confession of the Churches in Heluetia Confess Heluetica The ministers of the newe Testament bee called by sundrie names for they are called Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Byshoppes c. And speakyng of Prophetes it sayeth The Prophetes in tyme paste foreseeyng thynges to come were called Seers who were expounders of the Scriptures also as some bee euen nowe a dayes Euangelistes were wryters of the historie of the Gospell and Preachers also of the gladde tydings of Christe his Gospell As Paule bidde Timothie doe the woorke of an Euangeliste c. So that to saye that there is in the Churche Apostles Prophetes and Euangelistes in suche sense as I haue declared is no straunge diuinitie to suche as bée diuines in déede But let vs heare your reasons Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 45. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. And that you maye haue some thyng to doe more than peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these woordes I will shewe my reasons why I thinke there oughte to be none nor can be none vnlesse they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of this worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God beeing sente of God but to the Embassador of any Prince or noble man or that is sente of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the Scripture by the trope of Synecdoche for the twelue that our Sauior Christ appointed to go thoroughout all the worlde to preache the Gospell vnto the which number was added Saint Paule and
as some thinke Barnabas whiche are seuered from all other ministers of the Gospell by these notes First that they were immediatly called of God as S. Paule to the Galathians proueth him Gal. 1. selfe to be an Apostle bycause he was not appoynted by men Then that they sawe Christe whiche argument Saincte Paule vseth in the. 9. 1. Cor. Am I not an Apostle haue I not seene Christe Thirdly that these had the field of the whole world to tyll whereas other are restrained more particularly as to a certaine plough lande wherin they should occupie themselues wherevpon it followeth that as we conclude against the Pope truly that he can be no successour of the Apostles not only bicause he neyther teacheth nor doth as they did but bicause the Apostles haue no successours neyther any can succeede into the office of an Apostle so may we lykewyse conclude against those that woulde haue the Apostles now a dayes that there can be none bycause there is none vnto whome all these three notes doe agree as that he is both sent of God immediately or that he hath seene Christe or that he is sent into all the worlde Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine vpon the sixtéenth to the Romaines sayeth that this woorde Apostle in proper and vsuall signification dothe onely comprehende that firste order whyche Chryste in the beginning did appoynt in his twelue disciples whiche is directly con trarie to your saying I graunt that in suche respectes as you now put downe there bée no Apostles although Matthias was not immediatly called by God as it appeareth Actes 1. and you before haue confessed neyther can you proue by the Scripture that Barnabas was so called but the contrarie rather dothe appeare in the. 11. of the Actes and yet he was an Apostle Sainct Paule in the firste to the Corinth 9. doth not saye that he sawe Christe to proue that he was an Apostle but to declare that he was in that respect nothing inferiour to the reste of the Apostles I haue before declared in what sense I say that ther be Apostles in the church neyther is it a matter so strange séeing that M. Caluine sayeth as muche in the place before recited Quanquam non nego quin Apostolos postea quoque vel saltem eorum loco Euangelistas interdùm excitarit Deus vt Cal. in 16. Ro. instit cap. 8. nostro tempore factum est Although I doe not denye but that God hath afterwardes also stirred vp Apostles or at the least Euangelists in steade of them as it is doone in oure dayes Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 45. Sect. 5. And although some Ecclesiasticall wryters doe call sometymes good ministers successors of the Apostles yet that is to be vnderstanded bicause they propounde the same doctrine that they did not bycause they succeeded into the same kind of function which they could not do S. Paule doth vse this word sometimes in his proper and natiue signification for him that is publikely sent from any to other as when he speaketh of the brethren that were ioyned with Titus whiche were sent by the Churches with reliefe to the poore Church in Ierusalem and Inry and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle But that is with addition and not simply as in the first place he calleth the brethren the Apostles of the Churches that is not the Apostles of all Churches or sente to all 2. Cor. 8. Churches but the Apostles which certayne Churches sent with the reliefe to other certaine churches and Epaphroditus he calleth not an Apostle simply but the Apostle of the Philippians that Philip. 2. is which the Philippians sent with reliefe to Paule being in prison at Rome as it appeareth in the same epistle Io. Whitgifte The writers of y e Magdelb historie cal Epaphroditus an Apostle in the same sense Epaphroditus an Apost that they cal Paule and the rest of the Apostles M. Caluine thinketh the name of an Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. Apostle to be taken in that place generally pro quolibet Euangelista for any preacher of the gospell Ambrose saith erat eorum Apostolus à Paulo factus dum illum ad exhortationem Caluin in 2 Philip. eorum mittebat ad eos he was made their Apostle of Paule when as at their request he sente him vnto them And Theodoret in plaine wordes doth call him an Apostle bycause he Ambrose in Philip. 2. was byshop of the Philippians If these say true as no doubt they do thē is not Epaphroditus called an Apostle only in that signification that you say he was In that he Theo. 1. Tim. 3. Phil. 2. calleth them Apostles with an addition of the Churches not of all Churches he confirmeth my saying for it argueth that there may be Apostles though they haue commission but for one kingdome or prouince only as Epaphroditus was the Apostle of the churches of the Philippians bycause he was sent vnto them to preach Thus doth both Ambrose Chrysostome Theodoret Caluine and others write Chap. 3. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 46. Sect. 1. And as for Andronicus and Iunius whiche are by you recited (*) T. C. 〈◊〉 off a direct answer with this belike belike to proue that we may haue more Apostles bycause it is said of S. Paule that they were famous and notable amōgst the Rom. 16. Apostles it cannot be proued by any thing I see there whether they had any function ecclesiasticall or no. For S. Paule calleth them his kinsfolks and fellowe prisoners and dothe not saye that they were hys fellowe labourers and a man maye be well notable and famouse amongst the Apostles and well knowne vnto them whiche is no Apostle And if the Apostles woulde haue had this order of the Apostles to continue in the Churche there is no doubt but that they would haue chosen one into Iames his roome when he was slayn as they did when they supplyed the place of Iudas by choosing Matth s and so euer as they had dyed the other would haue put other in their places So it appeareth that this function of the Apostles is ceased Io. Whitgifte The foresayd authors of the storie called (a) Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. Magdelburgica do also recken these two Andronicus Iunia Apostles among the Apostles euen as they do Paule Barnabas (b) Caluine in 16. Rom. M. Caluin vpon that place to the Romaines sayth that the name of an Apostle there doth extende to all those whiche teache not one Churche onely but many c. and séemeth to accompte Andronicus and Iunius such (c) Beza in 16. Rom. M. Beza in the same place writeth thus Inter Apostolos c. i quorum nomen inter Apostolos viget vel qui ipsi sunt insignes Apostoli ic enim accipitur interdum oc nomen in genere pro bis qui Christi nomine funguntur legatione That is whose name is famous among the
to do with non residence Authoritie is scarse when his helpe is Aristotle not rightly allea ged required But what saith he forsoth that that which was cared for of all men was neglected of all I thinke that you report not Aristotles wordes truely for as farre as I remember he sayth that that which is common to all is neglected of all The other can not be true for that which is cared for of all men can not be neglected of all for to care for and to neglect be contraries but must of necessitie be well prouided for and looked vnto But to what purpose do you alleage this Bycause I saye that no man must so loke to his priuate A mā hauyng a priuate charge ▪ ought to care for the whole charge that he neglect the other partes of the Church do I therefore say that there is no priuate charge but all things are in common It is the duetie of euery member in the common wealth so to loke to his owne priuate affaires and businesse that he neglect not the common state of his country are all things therfore common neither did Aristotle euer teach that a man should so care for his certaine possession that he preferred not the common vtilitie before it and so likewise Christ hath deuided to euery man a portion of hie Church to care for but yet not so that he should thinke himself no longer bound to the whole or that he must now cease from profiting the whole Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T C. Page 49. Sect. 1. Now if any man will say that in such great scarcitie of Pastors it is good that when a man hath trauailed in one place remoued them from superstition brought them to beleeue in God through Christ to go to another place and assay also to draw them from Idolatrie first I vrge that which I did before which is the calling wherein euery man must abide and without the which no man ought to attempt any thing Then I say that it is as hard a prouince and as painefull a thing vnto the pastor as acceptable and precious a worke vnto the Lorde to kepe those which are gotten as to get those which are not gotten and that that saying is fulfilled here if in any thing else Non minor est virtus quam quaerere parta tueri Io. Whitgifte This obiection is of greater force than you are able to withstande For the same God that hath called him to the one place to plant his true Religion there hath also called him to the other that he may doe the like euen as he did the Apostles Prophets and Euangelistes and pastors also who haue béen euen immediatly after the Apostles time transferred from one place to another for the greater commoditie of the Church Neither can it be proued that any man should be so tyed to one place that he may not be transferred to another to profit more It is true that the deuill most greuously assaulteth those which haue embraced the truth bicause now they are become his professed enimyes openly withstand hym But they are sufficiently armed with faith and with y e word of God so that although they be tempted yet can they not be ouercome The other that remaine in ignorance he wholy possesseth and bicause they haue yéelded themselues vnto him he doth suffer them to be quiet therfore to deliuer such out of his seruitude and bondage and so to arme instruct them that they are not only able to withstand but to put to flight the deuill also must of necessitie be both the hardest and the most acceptable worke vnto God except you will say that it is more commendable to helpe him who is sufficiently armed and able to resist than him that is altogether vnarmed and as it were vnder the foote of his enimy Certainly the most acceptable worke vnto God is to conuert sinners vnto repentance and to heale such as be sicke therfore Christ himselfe sayd that he Luke 19. came to seeke that which was lost and the parable of the lost grote and of the Prodigall Luke 15. sonne doth with might maine ouerthrow your sayings so do the whole dealings of the Apostles and the whole course of the Scriptures Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 49. Sect. 2. For we knowe that after that the Deuill perceyueth that men are pulled oute of the power of darknesse into the glorious light of the Gospel he sweateth and laboureth by a thousand meanes to destroy them and bestirreth himselfe more then than in the time of their ignorance and in steade of that one chayne of ignorance and want of the knowledge of God he layeth a thousande trappes for them to snare them with So that the continuall daunger that the Churche is in dothe as it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were speake vnto the pastor in the cōmon prouerbe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is looke diligently to that charge whiche thou hast receyued For if the watcheman should forsake the citie where vnto he is appoynted and go and watche in another where he is not called although he saue that if he loose the other he shall not therfore escape the punishment of betraying the other citie ▪ where he was placed watchman Io Whitgifte So it is but all the diuels in hell can not preuayle agaynst them therefore sayde S. Paule to the Ephe. cap. 6. Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to Eph. 6. resist the euill day c. euery Christian is in this case yea the pastor himselfe but wote you what Christ sayth Ioh. 10. My sheepe heare by voyce and no man shall take them Ioh. 10. Chrysost. in 3. Colos. Colos. 3. out of my handes The Scriptures as Chrysostome sayth be continuall scholemasters and he that hath vnderstanding may therein learne howe to withstande Sathan and all his assaultes And therefore sayde the Apostle to the Coll. 3. Let the worde of God dwell in you abundantly in all wisdome teaching and admonishing your owne selues in Psalmes and hymnes c. If the watcheman hathe sufficiently admonished the citie and hathe ministred weapons vnto them brought them out of the bondage of their enimie and leaue some other behinde him to supply the rest and then go to another citie to deliuer it also from the like slauery if in the meane time the former citie be lost or reuolted which is not like their bloud be vpon themselues the watchman hath done his dutie When Io s had tolde Niniuie hir offences shewed his message for the which he was sent The preacher is called thither where he may doe most good ▪ was there any more required of him Moreouer I am persuaded that wheresoeuer the preacher may do most good thither is he called of God neyther is this to forsake his station but to followe his calling and to do good Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 49.
Furthermore it was in the night time finally he was suspected by a maid to be one of Christs disciples before he had spoken one worde as it appeareth Io. 18. But to let al this passe what kind of reasoning call you this Peter was knowne by his voice Ergo he was not knowne by his apparell or this Peter was knowne by his tong to be a Galilcan Ergo ministers must be knowne by voice learning and doctrine Here you let slippe without any defense at all that which is alledged by the Admonition The Admo nition wanteth a procto out of the. 48. verse of the. 6. Chapter of Mathewe to the same purpose No man can deny but Christes apparel differed from the rest and that this was a rare kind of habit else would not the Euangelist Saint Iohn cap. 19. haue made so particular mention of it wherefore that whiche I say is true that euen then ministers of the Gospell might be knowne by their apparell as Christ and Iohn the Baptist and therefore not to be so straunge a matter that ministers should also now differ from other men in their apparell That which you speake of Iohn Baptist confirmeth my saying which is that ministers of the Gospell were then also knowne by their apparell and if vnwonted apparell did set foorth Iohn his ministerie and moued them the rather to enquire of his office why may it not haue the same vse now in like manner But I haue vsed those examples only to shew the vanitie of the Admonition which would make the Reader beléeue that in those dayes there was no distinction vsed in apparell Christ and his Apostles haue left a perfect patterne of a minister touching conditions qualities Lose conclusiōs of T. C. office so hath y e scripture done of a magistrate and of a subiect also of a master and of a seruant c. but shall there be therefore no distinction in apparell betwixte them or no externall notes to discerne them by what kind of argument cal you this Christ and his Apostles haue left vs a perfect patterne of the ministers office Ergo the magistrate may not take any order for his apparell Truly these be loose conclusions and as you vse to tearme them very pitifull arguments Of the same force be these arguments most of the Apostles and Prophets vsed no such seuerall apparell Ergo we may not vse any seuerall apparell And againe none of them haue left any commaundement of it Ergo it ought not to be The first reason hath thus many faults first the Antecedent is vntrue as I haue shewed before out of this Prophet Zacharie and M. Caluine c. For the Prophets were discerned from others by a certaine kind of apparell and it is not able to be proued but that the Apostles had seuerall apparell from the common sorte of men Secondly The Antec dent of T. C inferreth a consequent against himselfe it is no good argument à facto ad ius but it is much worse à non facto ad non ius the which kind of argument Zuinglius diuers times reproueth in his treatises against the Anabaptists as I haue oftentimes said Thirdly if some of the Apostles and some of the Prophets did vse seuerall apparell as the Antecedent cōfesseth they did though it doth not follow that we must do so yet it euidently proueth that we may do so being no commaundement in the scripture to the contrary Theargumē of T. C. ouerthrowne by his owne assernon Youre seconde argumente is ouerthrowne by youre owne selfe For Pag. 13. you saye that many thynges are bothe commaunded and forbidden of whyche there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessary to be followed and auoyded as those whereof Pa. 13. Sect. 1 expresse mention is made which if it be true as it is most vntrue then thinges of lesse importance and not so necessary though they be not expressedly commaunded yet may they be done M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabaptists for your arguments and theirs do maruellously agrée and be builded vpon the selfesame foundation sayth thus To dissolue that which God neuer dissolued is in a mortall man a token of to muche rashnesse and arrogancie But let vs always hold this that then the authoritie of God is vsurped Caluin aduer Anabap. when that is condemned which he hath permitted But the scripture mentioneth in no place that the vse of armoure is forbidden vnto princes c. You may herby then perceiue that M. Caluine doth not thinke this to be a sound argument it is not commaunded Ergo it is vnlawfull except it can be shewed to be prohibited wherefore if you will condemne a seuerall kind of apparell in ministers you must shewe some commaundement or prohibition in the word of God for the same else are you rashe and arrogant vsurping to your selfe gods authoritie as M. Caluine saith Chap. 2. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 55. Sect. 1. Eusebius saith that S. John the Apostle ware on his head a leafe or thinne plate like vnto a Bishops miter T. C. Pag. 53. Sect. vlt. For want of store and to make a long booke heere is S. Iohns miter rehearsed thr se in one leafe to the same purpose and in the saine words And bycause it was not enough that M. Bullinger and M. Martyr should speake of them you haue preuented them both least you should haue But not once digested or answered seemed to haue brought nothing If this be not coleworts*twise sodden I cannot tell what is Io. Whitgifte It is so often rehearsed as you report but by diuers authors to shew their opinions of one and the selfesame thing M. Gualter and M. Martyr among other examples vse this of S. Iohn to proue that in the auncient Church there was a peculiar fashion of apparell for Priests I recite their words as witnesses in this case worthy of credite and by that occasion this example of Iohn is the oftner repeated but thys is a sore matter to moue such choler you should quietly haue answered the reason and left your heate of speach but you haue done the contrary That the Magistrate may appoint a distinct apparell for Ministers Chap. 3. the. I. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 55. Sect. 1. But what if none of the Prophets what if none of the Apostles which you are not able to proue eyther of the prophets or Apostles were knowne by their apparell May not therefore Christian magistrates in Christian common weales for order and decencie appoynte a seuerall kinde of apparell as well to ministers as to other states of men T. C. Page 54. Sect. 1. You aske whether the christian Magistrate may enioyne a seuerall kinde of apparell to the Ministers Eyther the cause is to weake whiche you defende or else it hathe gotten an euill patrone whiche would so gladly shifte it and chaunge it with another For this is an other question
peeces their Images sayth t us we make it Calui not now any scruple of conscience to reteine still those Churches which were polluted with Idols and to put them to better vse bycause that whiche is added to the lawe propter consequentiam as they terme it doth not bynde vs. I graunt that all those things which doe tende to the planting of superstition ought to be taken awaye so that by precise vrging of that vvhich is of it selfe indifferent vve be not in to much rigour Superstitious The place is worth the noting it fully ouerthroweth your groundes agaynst the apparell Saint Augustine in that sermon quoted in your margent speaketh against such as professing Christianitie did notwithstanding resort to the temples of the Paganes at their solemnities and feasts thinking it sufficient if they did in heart detest the Idols though in bodie they were present in their temples and at their feasts much like vnto those that thinke it sufficient to serue God in heart though in bodie they be present at the Masse and Idolatrous seruice That this is the meanyng of Augustine in that place it may euidently appeare to all suche as will peruse it vpon this Augustine bringeth in these wordes If you aske howe the Paganes may be ouercome wonne and illuminated howe they maye be brought to saluation forsake all their solemnitie let goe Aug. serm 6. de verbis domi in Matth. theyr toyes and then if they agree not vnto the truth let them be ashamed of theyr fewnesse It was in Saint Augustines time as it is in some places at this day where in some one citie there be Churches both for the Gospell and for the masse also it is not méete that suche as professe the Gospell shoulde resort to the Masse for besydes that they offende God in beyng presente at Idolatrous seruice they also giue occasion to the Papistes to thinke better of theyr Masse bycause they sée it frequented of suche as seeme to professe the Gospell and thereby also persuade them selues of a greater multitude that embraceth their Religion wherefore one way to conuert them is to absteine from their Churches that they may vnderstand both our misliking of theyr seruice and their owne paucitie also And that this is ment of by Augustine in that place it may also appeare by these wordes in the same Sermon The Paganes saye in their heartes why forsake we our Gods seeing the Christians them selues worship them as well as we And agayne Beholde against what true God thou doest offende whyles thou fallest downe before false Gods S. Augustine speaketh not one worde in all that sermon of ceremonies or any thing else taken from the gentils and by Christians conuerted to other vses muche lesse of any suche matter as we haue newe in question And therfore you do but abuse the Reader by reciting certaine words of S. Augustine without the circumstances which open the true meaning of them I praise your wit for saying that such things may be conuerted to priuate vses for denie that as S. Augustine plainely doth and I shall be bound vnto you that your doctrine shall haue the fewer fautors by 3. parts for surely many that condemne your opinions in heart for hope of priuate commoditie that might come vnto them by the dissolution of colledges Churches c. doe séeme very wel to like of them Wherfore teach them if you be wise that such things may be conuerted to their priuate vses whatsoeuer Augustine saith to the contrarie Augustine saith also that they maye be conuerted in honorem Dei vnto the honour of God What say you to that as for your denying that that vse is in distinguishing eyther the ministers from other men c. bicause it is but your bare denyall against al the proofes alleaged I will with affirming the contrarie passe it ouer Chap. 5. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 58. Sect. 2. 3. Peter Martyr in the Epistle before mentioned touching this matter P. Martyr writeth on this sort But let vs consider your other argument that is to saye It is not lavvfull to vse these kinde of vestures bicause they vvere inuented by the Popes tyrannie In this poynt I doe not vvell perceiue hovve it may be affirmed for a suertie that vve can vse nothing that perteined to the Pope and is vsed in Temples of Idols conuer ted to the wor ship of God Poperie Truely vve must take good heede that vve bring not the Churche of Christ into suche bondage that it may not vse any thing that the Pope vsed It is very true that our forefathers toke the temples of Idols turned Reuenewes them into holy Churches vvhere Christ should be vvorshipped And they tooke also the salarie and reuenevves consecrated to the Idols of the gentils to their vvicked shevves and playes and to their holy votaries virgines and transposed it to finde the Ministers of the Church And yet all these things dyd not onely seruice vnto Antichrist but vnto the deuill yea the holy Ecclesiasticall Phrases of Poetes vvriters dyd not sticke to take the verses of Poetes vvhiche had bene dedicated to Muses and to other diuerse Gods and goddesses for to be played in playes and spoken in shevves to obteine the fauour of theyr Gods I say they did nothing sticke or feare to vse them vvhen it seemed to them conuenient imitating Paule the Apostle vvho stucke nothyng at all to rehearse for his purpose Menander Aratus and Epimenides and that he dyd in intreating the holy Scripture apply prophane vvordes to set forth Gods Religion VVe reade also hovve that vvine vvas consecrated Wine bread ▪ c. consecrated to Idols vnto Bacchus bread vnto Ceres vvater vnto Neptune oyle vnto Minerua letters vnto Mercurie song vnto the Muses and vnto Apollo and manie other things Tertullian rehearseth in his booke intituled de corona militis Christiani vvhere almost he entreateth thys selfe same argumente yet for all that vve sticke not to vse all these things freely asvvell in holye as in prophane vses although at one time or other before they had bene consecrated to Idols and to deuils Hetherto Peter Martyr T. C. Page 55. Sect. 5. To all these things that M. Martyr reckeneth vp of reuenewes and wages verses wyne breade oyle water which beyng consecrated vnto Idols are wel vsed Tertullian answereth in the same booke whereout a number of these are taken when he sayth that we oughte to admit a participation of those things which bryng eyther a necessitie or profit in the vse of them but we deny these things thus vsed are either necessarie or profitable And therefore in steade of temples tithes wine c. if you would haue matched the surplice well you shoulde haue sayde sensors tapers holy bread holy water and such like Io. Whitgifte Master Martyr vsed these examples to proue that the surplice and other apparell of Ministers nowe vsed for that is the matter he handleth
them when as the Byshopprike of Rome and of Alexandria nowe a good whyle was passed beyonde the Limites of Priesthoode to an outwarde Dominion He sayth not leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion as you translate it But why doth Socrates burste out into thys reprehension of them euen bycause Socrates a fauourer of y e Nouatians Niceph. lib. 6. Cap. 37. lib. 9. 13. they expelled the Nouatian heretikes of whome Socrates was a fautor as it may appeare in Nicephorus wherefore he dothein that place affectionately and vniustly reproue both the Byshop of Rome and Alexandria for stoutly resisting those heretikes and expelling them from their Churches especially they nowe increasing to so great a multitude as it may séeme by Socrates wordes they dyd And althoughe the words of Socrates whiche I haue alreadie recyted iustifie this to be true yet doth his words followyng declare the same more euidently For he commendeth the Byshop of Constantinople bycause he friendly interteyned the Nouatians suffered them quietly to remayne wythin the Citie and yet it is certayne that the Byshop of Constantinople had as large authoritie as the Byshop of Alexandria wherefore Socrates in thys poynt is no more to be beléeued against those Byshops than you are against the Socrates doings agreable to our time Byshoppes in thys Churche whose authoritie you maligne vpon the lyke occasion Chap. 2. the. 40. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 3. 4. And (a) Where i truth become although M. Doctor hath brought neither Scripture nor reason nor Councell wherein there is either name of Archbyshop or Archdeacon or proued that there may be And althoughe he shew not so much as the name of them foure hundred yeares after our saniour Christ. And although where he sheweth them they be either by counterfeit authors or without any worde (b) Would you haue better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tha decrees for th authoritie and continuall 〈◊〉 I se of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himself and putteth the crowne vpon his owne head saying that those that be learned maye easily vnderstande that the names Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest Councels fathers writers and a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant which saye otherwyse Here is (c) Vanitie a victorye blowen with a great and sounding trumpet that myghtè haue bene piped with an o en straw and if it shoulde be replyed againe that M. Doctor hath declared in this little learning little reading and lesse iudgement there mighte growe controuersies without all fruite Io. Whitgifte If I were not acquainted with this spirit it would make me muse at such euident and manifest vntruthes ioyned with so prophane iestes and tauntes If I had alleaged no moe authorities but onely the Councell of Nice it had bene sufficient to haue disproued this so bolde assertion of yours But séeyng I haue alleaged other testimonies also which euidently proue my purpose I muste néedes thinke you not to be a man that greatly careth for your owne credit but if you thinke they are few therefore accompt them for none I haue now I trust in this Chapter 25. Diuision supplyed their want and made vp the number What Scriptures I haue appeareth afterwards It is sufficient if I finde there the office of an Archbishop as I doubte not but I shall and therefore I say againe that to doubt of the antiquitie of these names and offices argueth great penurie of reading the auncient writers Chap. 2. the. 41. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And for as much as the originall and beginning of these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and such like such is their antiquitie cannot be found so farre as I haue reade it is to be supposed they haue their originall from the Apostles themselues For as I remember S. Augustine hath thys rule in hys August ▪ 118. Epist. ad Ianuar. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures and yet by tradition obserued of the vvhole Churche come eyther from the Apostles or from generall Councels as the obseruing of Easter the celebrating of the day of the ascention and of the comming of the holy Ghost suche like Uery vnlearned therefore and ignorant be those which so boldly affirme that these names vsed in the purest time of the church be Antichristian T. C. Page 74. Sect. 4. 5. And by and by in saying that the Archbyshops beginning is vnknowne in steade of a (a) Modestie bastard which some brought into the Church that hid themselues bycause they were ashamed of y ◠child he will make vs beleue that we haue a newe Melchisedech without father without mother whose generation is not knowen and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. Epistle to Ianuarie that the original of them is from the Apostles themselues Here (b) This is fro the matter M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had net Augustine by him when he wrote thys sentence and yet he maruellously forgetteth himselfe for he vsed this place before in his 23. Page and cyteth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued and howe that thereby a window is open to bryng in all Popery whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honour as they are vsed in this Realme are not meete to be giuen to the Ministers of the Gospell there hath bene spoken before Io. Whitgifte This place of Augustine is of greater force and credite with those that be learned than that it can be shifted off I haue answered whatsoeuer you saye against it in that place and shewed of what credite it is with some famous writers of our time namely with Master Zuinglius Master Caluine and Master Gualter And surely I thinke no learned man doth dissent from them Your iestes are to vsuall and vnséemely for a Diuine especially when you abuse the scripture to make sport withal I might haue sayd also of you y t you sought after some glory of a good memorie when as you vsed the like kinde of speach in alleaging of Gildas and Lumbard Pag. 68. but that I am not delighted with such kinde of eloquence Pag. 68. Sect. 4. Chap. 2. the. 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Whether that the name of Prelate of the Garter Earle Coūtie Palatine Honor high commissioner Iustice of peace and Quorum Ciuill offices giuē to ecclesiasticall persons being necessary offices in this common weale partly for the honour of the Prince and Realme but especially for good gouernment of all estates and degrees of persons be Antichristian let those consider
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
office or dignitie whiche was not appoyuted vnto hym by God neyther did he otherwise vse himselfe therein than his office and duetie required and it is impietie thus to dallie and trifle in Gods matters We are w ll assured in scripture that Peter did this and had this preheminence and therefore you must knowe that he was lawfully called vnto it and did lawfully execute it The Gréeke Scholiast saith that Peter in such assemblies did conclude nothing The scholiast playeth not y e parte which is layde vpon him without the consent of the rest the which also the scripture it selfe dothe plainly declare But the Gréeke Scholiast no where sayth that Peter was at euery assemblie or at any time chosen by the voyces of the rest to speake first and to moderate the action which is your assertion For in the place by you cited he speaketh not of the election of Peter to his prolocutorship but of the choosing of Matthias to the Apostleship Wherein Peter tooke not that preheminence to himselfe to appoint him alone but communicated the matter with the rest of the disciples So that you haue eyther wittingly or ignorantly applyed the Scholiast to a wrong matter It is true that Peter did nothing imperiously nothing with dominion or power no more doth any man that executeth lawfull iurisdiction and gouerneth by law quitie and order no not the king himselfe for in superioritie there is humilitie and in rule and authoritie there is seruitude as I haue before shewed in the exposition of the places in the. 20 of Matth. 22. Luke c. And yet doth the Gréeke Scholiast in the same place say that Peter rose vp and not lames as being more feruent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Tract 1. and as hauing receiued the presidentship of the Apostles Your admo ishment of falling into the tents of the Papists howe necessary it is for your selfe whi h vse their manner of reasoning vpon this example of Peter and vpon deuised interpretations of the scripture I haue touched before As for my selfe I refuse no warning ▪ But I trust it is not so necessary for I know what they haue said what they can say in that matter Chap. 3. the. 48. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 4. And that it may be vnderstanded that this inoderate rule voyd of all pompe and outwarde shew was not perpetuall nor all wastyed vnto one man whiche were the last poynts of the c utions I put before turne vnto y e. 15. of the Actes where is shewed how with the rest of the church the Apostles and amongst them Peter being assembled decide a great controuersie (a) This 〈◊〉 aga nst your 〈◊〉 as 〈◊〉 appeare Iames he Apostle and not Peter moderated and gouerned the whole action when as after other had sayde their iudgements and namely Paule and Barnabas and Peter he in the end in the name o all pronounced the sentence and that whereof the rest agreed and had disputed vnto and the residue rested in that iudgement the which also may likewise appeare in the. 21. of the Actes Io. Whitgifte Peter moderat ur o ong as the Apo tles nco ogyther It is euident by the story of the Actes of the Apostles that this function remayned to Peter so long as the Apostles cōtinued togither and that he did execute the same when soeuer they mette and therefore it is vntrue that this off ce was not tyed to one man the. 15. of the Acts helpeth you nothing for euen there Peter kéepeth his accustomed manner in making the irst oration and in that place it may appeare that he did it as chéefe in that assemblie for the text saith that when there had bin great Actes 15. disputation Peter rose vp and said vnto them c. so that Peter as one hauing authoritie to appease the tumult and bitter contention rose vp and said vnto them c. Then spake Barnabas and Paule after them Iames not as moderator or gouer oure of the whole action but as one hauing interest to speake as the rest of the Apostles had and bycause he had spoken that which the rest well liked of therefore they consented to his opinion and iudgement This is no more to giue preheminence o Iames in moderating that action than it is to giue the speakership in the Parliament to hym that speaketh last in a matter and whose oration hath most perswaded o whome also the whole house consenteth So that Peter kéepeth his prerog tiue still for any thing that is here spoken to the contrary which may also euidently appe re by this The of ice o the peaker o 〈◊〉 that when there was greate contention among them about the matter the cause whereof is like to be for that they did not vnderstand the state of the cause Peter stoode vp in hoc maximè insistit vt statum quaestionis demonstraret and stoode especially vppon this point that he might declare the state of the question as M. Caluine saith whiche is the office of the speaker or moderatour wherefore not Iames but Peter did moderate the action But best as you would haue it that Iames did moderate the action it maketh most against The example o Iames 〈◊〉 the Re plyer you for if we beléeue the auncient writers and namely the gréeke Scholiast vpon the. 15. of the Acts Iames was now Byshop of Ierusalem and therefore the Synode being ithin his charge it was not 〈◊〉 that he according to his office should moderate the same as other bishops did in their seuerall Churches The. 21. of the Acts is nothing to your purpose but Paule comming to Ierusalem went with certaine other in vnto Iames and told him and all the rest that were gathered togyther what God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministration What is this to proue your purpose Peter is not here and Iames was now 〈◊〉 op of Ierusalem as the note in the margent of the ible printed at Geneua doth testify The place in no respect proueth your assertion but the contrary for there is no doubt but that Iames was the chiefe gouernour of the Churche of Ierusalem in all actions during his life after that he was once placed in the Byshopricke You talke in another place of raking of Doctors to proue my purpose but if these be not rakings of scriptures gathered togither to no purpose for the cōfirming of your fonde deuises I know not what you should meane by the name of rakings Chap. 3. the. 49. Diuision T. C. Page 85. Sect. 4. This is he which is called the Byshop in euery Church this is he also whome Iustin whereof mention is made afterwards called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And fynally this is that great Archbyshoppricke and great Byshoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on This order and preheminence 〈◊〉 Apostles tune and those that were neare them kept and the nerer they came to the Apostles 〈◊〉 the nearer they kept
confesse to haue bene in these offices which notwithstanding you speake of your owne head without any warrant of Gods worde argueth that there maye be superioritie among the ministers of the Churche And the degrées of honour that you acknowledge to haue bene among the Apostles quite cast th downe your confused qualitie As for your saluing the matter in saying that this chiefetie among the Apostles consisted not in hauing anye superioritie aboue the reste but in laboring c. it may please vnskilfull persons but it will not satisfie men of discr tion and wisdome For it is to be thought that euery one of y e Apostles laboured in their calling to the vttermost of their powers that they suffered whatsoeuer God laide vpon them that they had all giftes most aboundantly necessarie for their functions Wherfore in all these things there was summa aequalitas and no m n sought such preheminence or receyued it being offered vnto him but according to their owne doctrine euery one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉 Wherfore it could not be for this respect but it was for order pollici to a oyde confusion I haue tolde you before why you labour so muche to haue honour and dignitie distributed according to the excellencie of gifts for then you perswade your selfe that the chiefetie would light on your owne necke but you may peraduenture be deceiued Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. tovvards the ende And nowe I adde that you desire this equalitie not bycause you Why y e Admonitors desire equalitie would not rule for it is manifest that you seke it most ambitiously in your maner but bycause you contemne and disdaine to be ruled and to be in subiectiō In deede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to do what you list in your seueral cures without controlement of Prince Bishop or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seeke dominion I speake that I know by experience in some of you T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he saith that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule might be in our handes and we might doe what we list and that we seeke to withdrawe our selues from controlement of Prince and Byshop and all first he maye learne if he will that we desire no o r authoritie than that which is to the edifying of the Churche and whiche is grounded of the wo e of God which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition then he ought to abyde not ely the controlment of y e other Ministers yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the fault And seyng you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the ministers and cleargie (*) An vntruth ▪ for the lawfull authoritie o Bishops and Archbyshops was long be ore came to the Bishops and Archbyshops when as the Pope did exempte his hauelings from the obedience subiec on and iurisdiction of Princes Nowe therefore that we be readie to giue that subiection vnto the prince and offer our selues to the princes correction in things wherein we shall doe amisse doe you thinke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes Io. Whitgifte Your answere maketh the matter more suspicious for this authoritie you speake of Excessiue authoritie is sought vnder pretence of equalitie which you say ▪ is to the edifying of the Church and grounded of the word of God is as it pleaseth you to interprete it For what so euer you phansie and whatsoeuer authoritie you vsurpe shall haue the same pretence and if the Prince seeke to restraine you or to breake your will you and your Seniors will excommunicate hir if she be of your parishe Fu thermore the greatest preeminence she can haue is to be one of your seigniorie and then must M. Pastor be the chiefe and so in authoritie aboue y e Prince and consequently a Pope but of this more in due place shal be spoken This authoritie which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise came first from 〈◊〉 authoritie of Byshops Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉 the Apostolicall Church then from the example of the primitiue Churche for y e space of fiue hundred yeares after the Apostles time Thirdly from the Councels of Nyce Antioche Constantinople and all the beste and purest Councels that euer were And last of all from the authoritie of the Prince and by the consent of this whole Churche and Realme of England therefore not from the Pope who hath rather diminished it by taking all to himselfe than in any respect encreased it Wherfore you also in exempting your self from the authoritie and iurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop resist God in his Ministers the Prince in hir officers and the lawes of the Church Realme in their executors And as for your protested obedience it is so enwrapped with conditions and prouisoes as in other places of your booke more plainely appeareth that when it should come to the triall if your platforme were builded it woulde proue as little as uer the Popishe Byshops was in their greatest pride Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers 1. is this Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ by the vvill of God Timotheus our brother Surely your minde was not of equalitie I thinke when you quoted these places to proue it But it is your vsuall maner without al discretiō iudgement to dally play with the scriptures For what sequele is there in this reason Paule calleth Timothie brother Ergo in all respectes there must be equalitie As though there were not distinction of degrees euen among brethren Io. Whitgifte Magis mutus 〈◊〉 piscis and by his silence the ouersight confessed Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Admonition And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. P t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lord bishops Chancelours c. are drawen out of the Popes shop togither with their offices So the gouernment which they vse by the life of the Pope which is the Canon law is Antichristian and diuelishe and contrarie to the scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. 1. Both of the names and also of the offices of Archbyshops Archdeacons Scriptures wreasted Lorde Byshops c. I haue spoken before sufficiently and fully answered those places quoted in this margent sauyng the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places haue bene founde out since and thoughte meete
Ergo Archbishops c. and their offices came out of the Popes shop you shoulde first proue that which ought to be your Minor T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 4. But that I runne not backe to that I haue hādled before I will not here so much rge y ◠place A cleanly shifte as I will not doe also y t of the Hebrues which followeth yet the argument is stronger than that M. Doctor could answere For if the writer to the Hebrues do proue our Sauiour Christs vocation to be iust and lawfull (*) Vntrue bicause his calling was conteined in the scriptures as appeareth in y e 5. and. 6. verse then it followeth that y e calling of the Archbishop which is not comprehended there is neither iust nor lawfull For that no man sayth the Apostle taketh the honour vnto himself but he that is called of God c. But I say hauing before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which ouerthrow the Archbishop I wil let passe these and other places answering onely that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them Io. Whitgifte This is a cleanly handsome shift to auoide y e defense of these grosse vnapt allegations The 〈◊〉 proueth not y t which is deuyed of scriptures I haue answered the argument grounded vpō the. 5. to y e Hebrues and required the proofe of the minor whiche is this that Archbishops Lordbishops c. intrude them selfes into their offices without any lawfull calling whiche bothe they and you haue omitted and therefore I haue answered sufficiently vntill you haue proued that which is by me denied It is not true that the Apostle to the Hebrues proueth the vocation of our sauiour Iesus Christ to be iust and lawfull bicause his callyng was conteyned in the scriptures he onely sheweth by euident testimonies of the Scriptures that Christ dyd not intrude hym selfe but was called of God And if you will haue no man to execute any function in the Churche but him that hath suche speciall and personall testimonies of the scriptures to shewe for him selfe I sée not howe any man can iustifie his calling It is therefore sufficient if his calling be generally conteyned in the Scripture as al lawfull and ordinary functions are euen the offices of Archebishops and Lordebishops c. Chap. 6. the. 12. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 209. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 210. Sect. 1. In the. 16. of Luke verse 25. it is thus written But Abraham sayd Scriptures wrested sonne remember that thou in thy life time receyuedst thy pleasures likevvise Lazarus paynes novve therfore is he comforted and thou arte tormented The riche glutton in his lyfe receyued pleasure and therefore was after in hell tormented Lazarus receyued paynes and after was comforted Therefore Archbishops c. and their offyces come oute of the Popes shoppe These fellowes neyther care for maior minor nor conclusion so they saye something and vaynely paynt their margent with shamefully abusing the scriptures The words of Ezech. Chap. 34. verse 4. be these The vveake haue ye not strengthned the sicke haue ye not healed neyther haue you bound vp the broken c. In the which place the Prophet speaketh agaynst suche Kinges Magistrates and rulers as despise the people of Abuse of offices condemned not the offi es God vse them selues cruelly towards them This dothe aswell condemne Kings Magistrates as it doth Archbishops although in deede it condemneth no office or superioritie but the abuse of the same that is the man abusing the office and not the office it selfe In the. 2. Cor. 1. verse 24. the Apostle speaketh thus vnto them Not that vve haue dominion ouer your fayth but vve are helpers of your ioy for by fayth you stande S. Paule heere sayth that he hathe no authoritie to alter true religion or to rule ouer their consciences but how proueth this that Archbishops c. came out of the Popes shoppe Paule sayth that he had no power ouer the consciences of the Corinthians therfore Archbishops c and their offices were drawne out of the Popes shop If you had beene more studious when you were a Sophister if euer you were any you would haue learned better to frame an argument and haue had better iudgement in the sequele of the same If you had not troubled your margent with these quotations you had lesse vttered your folly So muche of the Canon lawe as is contrarie to the Scriptures Canon lawes not altog ther condemned is Antichristian and diuelishe But there be diuers Canons in it very good and profitable whiche may well be reteyned Good lawes may be borrowed euen of Turkes and heat henishe Idolaters and why not of Papists also I haue tolde you before that the thing it selfe is to be considered not the inuentor if it be good and profitable it may be vsed whosoeuer dyd inuent it Io. Whitgifte Not one worde answered to all this Chap. 6. the. 13. Diuision Admonition And as safely may we by the warrant of Gods worde subscribe to allowe the dominion of the pope vniuersally to reygne ouer the Church of God as of an archebishop ouer a whole prouince or a Lorde bishop ouer a Dioces whych conteyneth many shires and parishes For the dominion that they exercise the Archebishop aboue them and they aboue the rest of their brethren is vnlawfull and expresly forbydden by the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 210. Sect. 2. In that you say that you may as safely by the warrante of Gods worde subscribe to allowe the dominion of the Pope vniuersally to reygne ouer the Church of God as of an Archbishop ouer an whole Prouince c. You expresse but your heate I suppose you thinke not so can the Pope aswell gouerne the whole Churche as the Archbishop one Prouince and a Lord bishop one Dioces Is one king aswell able to gouerne the whole worlde as he may be to gouerne one kingdome Or bicause you can rule one parishe well can you therefore in lyke manner well gouerne twentie parishes Surely an Archbishop may well gouerne one Prouince An archebyshop may gouerne one pro uince but the Pope not all the worlde but the Pope can neuer well gouerne the whole Churche And yet an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole Prouince generally but onely in cases exempted and therfore may do it more easily T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 4. He sayth therefore afterwarde that although one man be not able to be Bishop ouer all the Churche yet he may be Bishop ouer a whole Dioces or of a prouince Nowe if I woulde saye the one is as impossible as the other and for proofe thereof alleage that whiche the philosophers say that as there are no degrees in that whych is infinite so that of thinges whiche are infinite one thyng can not be more infinite than another so there are no degrees in impossibilitie that of thyngs whych are
There is no abuse of Magnificat as yet shewed but there is a very vnlearned reason in the Admonition put why it should not be vsed to the Answere whereof you haue not replied and therefore I may iustly say of their correcting of Magnificat that which I haue sayde and the Prouerbe is méete for such vnskilfull persons but your childish or rather prophane iestes and scoffes be not séeming for a Diuine and him that would he counted so greatly learned and mortified Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 3. As these are diuers things more than ought to be conueniently so want there some things in the prayers there are prayers set forth to be sayd in the common calamities vniuersall scourges of the realme as plague famine c. And in deede so it ought to be by the worde of God ioyned with a publike faste cōmaunded not only when we are in any calamitie but also when any the churches rounde about vs or in any countrie receyue any generall plague or grieuous chastisement at the Lordes hand But as such prayers are needefull whereby we begge release from our distresses so there ought to be as necessarily prayers of thankes giuing when we haue receyued those things at the Lordes hande which wee asked in our prayers And thus much touching the matter of the Great faultes in little matters prayers eyther not altogither sounde or else to much or to little Io. Whitgifte If any thing lacke in the booke that derogateth nothing from that which is good godly in the same neyther is it any cause why any man should depraue it or make such a stirre and schisme in the Churche for it It is méete that we should as well giue thankes for the benefites receyued as to pray for the receyuing of them neyther is the booke voyde of any suche kinde of prayers These be vut verie small quarels agaynst the booke and slender faultes if they were faults to make so great a schisme for But as I sayde with S. Augustine August Epist. 121. agaynst the Authours of the Admonition so say I vnto you If thou runnest through all the wordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing which the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne therfore we may in other wordes speake the same things in our prayers but we may not speake contrarie things You haue not as yet neyther will you euer be able to shewe one lyne in any prayer conteyned in that booke to be contrarie to the worde of God or not consonant or agréeable vnto the same And this dealing of yours agaynst it vpon so weake reasons or rather none at all argueth that you séeke only contention and that your chiefe quarell is at the mainteyners of the booke and not at the matter Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. 4. Concerning the forme there is also to be misliked a great cause whereof is the following of the forme vsed in Poperie agaynst which I haue before spoken For whylest that seruice was set in many poynts as a patterne of this it commeth to passe that in steade of such prayers as the primitiue Churches haue vsed and those that be reformed nowe vse we haue diuerse (a) These are seemely terme ▪ for Godly prayers be they re so sho t short curtes shreddings which may be better called wishes than prayers And that no man think that this is some ydle fansie and that it is no matter of weight what forme of prayer we vse so that the praiers be good it must be vnderstanded that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine whiche our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles haue preached (b) Where learn you that ▪ vnlesse the same forme of doctrine and of teaching be likewise kept so is it not ynough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God vnlesse that the forme also be agreeable vnto the formes of prayers in the scripture Nowe we haue no such formes in the scripture as that we shoulde pray in two or (c) The Lordes prayer is not much more the prayers of the publican of Steuen of Christ on the Crosse are much lesse three lynes and then after hauing read a while some other thing come and pray as much more and so to the. xx and. xxx tune with pawses betweene Io. Whitgifte You haue verie aptly answered your selfe though you woulde séeme to make it an obiection and to wipe it away for vndoubtedly when you thought that other men woulde count this d uise of yours an ydle fansie you thought truely and your owne thought therein condemneth you But I adde that it is not onely an ydle fansie but an vntrue surmise for first which be those prayers that the primitiue Churche vsed in steade whereof we haue but short cuttes and shreddings Why doe you not name them Will you still speake without proofe Will you rayse vp a generall slaunder and shew no particulars Touching your charging vs with following of the forme vsed in Poperie I haue answered before where you haue in like maner obiected it and onely obiected it Howe proue you that it is not sufficient to preache the same doctrine that our Sauiour The fensie of the plyer concerning the forme of preaching Christ and his Apostles haue preached vnlesse the same forme of teaching bee lykewyse kepte For I take that to be an ydle fansie and vtterly vntrue I am perswaded that if the same doctrine be preached the maner and forme of preaching is left for euerie one to vse according to the gift that God hath giuen vnto him as he shall thinke it to be most expedient to edifying but this is an olde fansie of yours partly grounded vpon an arrogant opinion of your selfe whose maner and forme of preaching you woulde binde all men vnto partly of emulation and enuie bicause you haue perceyued other mens maner and kinde of preaching to haue béene much better lyked than yours But to let this passe Christ and his Apostles did not vsually pray before nor after their Sermons or at the least it is not expressed in Scripture that they did they when they preached did not vsually take any one certaine place or portion of Scripture to intreat of and it is manifest that they vsed not any vniforme maner of preaching but they spake as God gaue them vtterance neyther did they labour or studie for their Sermons but preached as present occasion serued and therefore for my part vntill I heare verie good reasons of this newe deuise I must néedes accompt it a verie fonde imagination Shewe me wherein the forme of our prayers doth differ from the maner and forme of praying conteyned in the Scripture Or shewe me in the Scripture any prescript forme of publike and dayly prayers commaunded the Lordes prayer onely excepted Or let me vnderstande what scripture you can alledge why in the publike congregation we may
(b) These examples proue not the purpose Noah which was a preacher vnto the olde worlde of the will of God was ordeyned also of God to make the Arke whiche was a Sacramente and seale of his preachyng touchyng the destruction of the worlde And (b) These examples proue not the purpose Abraham whom the Lorde would haue to be the Doctour of his churche whiche was then in his familie was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto his familie The (b) These examples proue not the purpose Priestes and Leuites whiche were appoynted to teache the people were also appoynted to sacrifice and to minister other sacramentes in the Church Lykewise the same Prophets which God stirred vp to preach he also ordeyned to confirme the same by signes Sacraments The (b) These examples proue not the purpose same may be also drawne throughout the new Testament as vnto euery of the twelue and afterwarde to the seuentie power was giuen bothe to preache the Gospell and also to confirme wyth signes and miracles whiche were seales of their Doctrine And (b) These examples proue not the purpose Sainct Paule by the commaundement that our Sauiour Christe gaue hym to preache vndertooke also to baptise although there were no expresse woordes that licenced him therevnto for hee knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordinaunce of God that the same shoulde bee the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes Wherevpon it followeth that forasmuche as women maye not prcache the Gospell no not by the lawes of the realine that they ought not to minister Baptisme Io. Whitgifte My reason alleadged in my Answere to the Admonition why this place doth not make any necessarie conclusion agaynst the baptizyng by Women is not answered but there is a newe collection made of the same place whyche is of as great force as the other for you myght as well conclude thus Ergo Pastors maye not preache bycause Pastours bée not Apostles I speake of the Argumente not of the thyng For I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confirme no not a truthe least it make men the bolder to wreast them at their pleasure and for the confirming of errour M. Zuinglius in hys booke De Baptisme sayth that Christe did Zuinglius not in this place of Mathewe institute baptisme nor prescribe eyther tyme place or any other circumstance perteyning to the same I haue proued before that the administration of the Sacraments may bée committed to some to whome the publike preachyng of the worde is not committed and youre examples here alleadged doe not proue the contrarie excepte you wyll Tract 9. ca. 1. sect 15. haue vs to grounde poyntes of doctrine vppon bare examples whych if we should doe many inconueniences would followe yea euen baptizyng by women whiche you so greately mislyke A facto ad ius or à non facto ad non ius bée the vsuall reasons of the Anabaptistes but of no force The example of Noah helpeth you not except you will either allegorie or proue y t the minister of the worde may make Sacramēts bicause Noah made the Arke 〈◊〉 Arke can not be proprely termed a sacrament in y t signification y t ours be for it had no promise of eternal life annexed vnto it neither was it any seale of gods promise but a meanes to saue Noah and his family from perishing by the waters and a tipe and figure of the Church of Christ as you haue before confessed Pag. 63. Sect. 1 Your examples which follow although some of them be very vnapt for miracles be no sacraments neyther yet euery kind of signes and wonders may as examples T. C. omitting the purpose proueth that which is not denied shewe that the administration of the sacramentes was committed to suche as were preachers of the word But they cannot proue that it was onely committed vnto them and to no other It is not required of you to proue whither he that maye preach may also administer the sacraments but whither it be of necessitie that none shoulde be admitted to minister the sacraments except the same also be admitted to preach the contrary whereof I haue shewed before Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 80. Sect. 1. The second place you do alleadge is 1. Cor. 14. where Paule sayth it is a shame for Women to speake in the congregation Paule saith not it is a shame for women to speake at home in priuate houses for women may instruct their families yea and they may speake also in the Congregation in tyme of necessitie if there be none else there that can or wyll preache Chryste and hereof we haue examples T. C. Pag. 110. Lin. 13. Sect. 1. But M. Doctor riseth vp and saith that a woman in time of necessitie and where there is none other that eyther can or will preache maye preache the Gospell in the Church This is straunge doctrine and such as strengtheneth the Anabaptists hands and sauoureth stronger that ways than any one thing in all the Admonition which is so often condemned of Anabaptisme His first reason to proue it is that there are examples thereof When we alleadge the examples (a) How vayne this bragge is hath bin shewed Tract 3. of all the churches of the Apostles times to proue the election of the minister by the Churche and in other cases which are generall examples approued and executed by the Apostles contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God yea and as hath bin proued according to the commaundement of God M. Doctor gyueth vs our answer in a worde that examples proue not now that the question is to make good womens preaching in the Church examples I will not say of all churches but of no one Church only of a few singular persons not according to the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. commaundement of the word of God but cleane contrary to the prescript word of God I say now examples and such singular examples are good proofes and strong arguments Io. Whitgifte In what poynt doth he strengthen the Anabaptists If you coulde haue told I trust it should not haue bin kept in silence I haue charged the Authors of the Admonition with nothing but I haue shewed my author for it deale you with me in like manner and spare not otherwise your wordes do but sauoure choler Examples withoute What force is in exāples preceptes make no generall or necessary rule but they sometimes declare what was done and what may be done extraordinarily vpon like occasion and the same circumstances if they be commendable examples Women were the first that preached Christes resurrection A woman was the Math. 28. first that preached Christ in Samaria Io. 4. and yet vndoutedly none of these dyd Io. 20. contrary to the prescript word of God Women may not speake ordinarily in the Io. 4. congregation nor chalenge any suche function vnto themselues but vpon
(*) Herein you haue aptly described your own nature It is a token of at nature disposed to no great quietnesse whiche rather than he would not striue striueth with himselfe Io. Whitgifte Whither I accuse them iustly or no I shall referre it to the Reader to iudge after I haue set downe their very wordes which indéede no Christian cares can paciently heare pag. 157. they say thus Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse to Which wordes if they be well marked and ioyned with the reason that followeth for players yet learne their partes without booke c. must néedes signifie a mer contempt of reading the scriptures and a mynde that thinketh lesie edifying to come by reading than by playing vpō a stage which is an vntolerable blasphemy Pages 164. and. 165. their talke of reading the scriptures tendeth wholy to this purpose to make the same altogether vnprofitable and surely no man can excuse them of this crime but he that is bent without respect to assent vnto them in all thinges though they be moste manifestly false and moste absurde But I would haue the Reader marke this one thing that speaking of a reading minister you saye It I may so call hym whereby you giue playne signification that you may not call nor esteeme them to be ministers which cannot preache Whiche if it be true then haue they not in your doctrine delyuered any of the sacramentes The marke that the Replier shoteth at so consequently so many not baptized as haue bene baptizedby thē to the proofe wherof your doctrine tendeth wholly The like he hath after warde pag. 128. Sect. 1. Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 4. And although the cause beiust and good which he defendeth yet I wyll note in a worde or two howe as though there were pitche or some worse thing in his handes he defileth whatsoeuer he toucheth Io. Whitgifte A token of a modest and quiet nature to impeache a knowne truthe for the persones sake that doth defend it Nunquid sic factitabat Paulus Did Paule so or did Peter dally in that manner Paule was content to allowe the truthe preached euen by false Prophetes But what should I compare the mylde modest and louing spirite of the Apostles with the contentious and scoffing spirite of T. C Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 4. But I would gladly learne why you do so greatly mislike of reading Zvvingfildians mislike reading of scriptures the scriptures I hope you be not Zvvingfildians is not the word of God as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or is Reading is preaching not reading preaching T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 6. First therfore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whither the worde of God is not as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or whether reading bee not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayth then the comparison of the profit and efficacie betweene one and the other is absurde yet I wyll answere to both I say therefore that the worde of God is not so effectuall read as preached For S. Paule sayth that faith commeth by hearing and hearing of the worde preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke faythe by is preaching Rom. 10. and not reading Io. Whitgifte I haue affirmed nothing so boldely which I haue not as strongly by good authorities and reasons cōfirmed to the which you haue not answered but in this manner of brawling If you did vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of preachings as M. Bucer declareth vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. and that reading of the scriptures is one of them which also the same Bucer there affirmeth then would you haue absteyned from giuing this sentence That if reading be preachyng than is the comparison of the profitte and efficacy betweene one and the other absurde for one kynde of preaching may be compared to an other without any absurditie I say that S. Paule in that chapter to the Romains by preaching doth generally Preaching for publishing the Gospell by voyce generally vnderstand all kindes of publishing the Gospel by the external voyce which comprehendeth reading as well as it doth that which you call preaching and it is greatlye against the dignitie and maiestie of the scriptures it also greatly confirmeth the error of the Papistes touching the obscuritie of the scriptures and debarring the people from reading them to saye that fayth commeth not by reading for that is to make them dumbe and vnprofitable M. Bucer vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. setteth foorth the cōmoditie of reading the scriptures The commoditie of reading the scriptures in the churche Bucer in this manner Reading of the holy scriptures was appointed to this end that both the phrase and manner of speaking of the scripture and the scripture it self might be more knowen and more familiar to the people when as they which did interprete the scriptures could not finish one little part thereof in one whole yeare In the meane time by the onely reading of the scriptures the people were maruelously confirmed in the knowledge of all the pointes and doctrine of saluation For they be in euery booke oftentimes repeated and expounded with diuers wordes that the people of that which followed might vnderstande many things which in that that went before they could not sometime perceiue and by that meanes the iudgement of the people was confirmed in all pointes of religion so that they were able to iudge of the interpretation of the scriptures and of all doctrine whiche was taught them by their owne Curates and teachers or by any other And therfore in auncient Churches this bare reading of the scriptures was greatly esteemed Of reading of scriptures God be thanked it is very well appointed in the Churche of Englande c. Thus farre M. Bucer Surely I maruell what is ment by this your straunge kinde of doctrine except you would haue the people through ignorance of the scriptures brought againe to this point that they must only depende vpon the mouth of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 14. And although reading do helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet this is gyuen to the preaching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the heartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures and the consideration of the makyng of the worlde and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacie be compated to the preaching of the worde of God Io. Whitgifte Reading of the scriptures doth not only nouryshe fayth but ingendreth faith also Reading
doth not only nourish fayth but gēdreth also as I haue proued in my Answere to the Admonition both by the scriptures and other learned writers If it were otherwyse then were the power of persuasion to be ascribed to the preacher and manner of teaching not to the worde which is against that saying of Christe Scrutamini scripturas c. searche the scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life c. and of the Apostle The whole scripture is giuen by inspiration of Iohn 5. 2. Tim. 3 God and is profitable to teache to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnes that the man of God may be absolute c. I denie not but that preaching is the most ordinary and vsuall meanes that God vseth to worke by in the heartes of the hearers bicause the people be for the most Preaching y e most ordinary meanes and why part ignorant and dull of vnderstanding and therfore haue néede of scholemaisters teachers to open and declare the scriptures vnto them and to deale with them according to their capacitie but this doth nothing derogate from the might and power of the woord of God being read of them or to them that vnderstande it set their heart vpon it If reading were so simple a thing and so little profitable as you would make it why was the Gospell committed to writing why is it thought so expedient to haue it in a toung knowen to the people why do men printe their sermons which they haue preached why did God by Moses commaunde the lawe to be read why did the Prophete Ieremy wyll Baruch to wryte out his sermons and to reade them o the people Do you thinke that there commeth no more knowledge or profit by reading the scriptures than doth by beholding of Gods creatures Then let vs haue Images againe that they may be lay mens bookes as the Papistes call them no doubt attributing as much to the externall and visible creature as they did to the reading of the eternall worde of God wherein you ioyne with them for any thing that I yet sée Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 20. And to know that the word of God preached hath more force and is more effecuall than when it is read it is to be obserued wherunto the preaching is compared It is called a lifting or heauing Iohn 3. vp of our Sauiour Christ. Like vnto the displaying of a banner as the Serpent was lift vp in the wildernesse As therefore that which is lifted vp on high is better and easilyer seene of a greater companie than when it standeth or lyeth vpon the grounde or in some valley or some low place so the preaching of the gospell doth offer sooner and easilyer the truth thereof vnto the fayth which is the eye of the hearer than when it is read Io. Whitgifte Where is there any such comparison in that third Chapter of Iohn If you meane these wordes Et nem ascendit in caelum c. Et sicut Moses exaltauit Serpentem c. As Moses Iobn 3. lifted vp the Serpent in the wildernesse c. as you can meane no other then I think you were not well aduised or little cared for your credite when you abused them for this purpose to proue that the worde of God is more effectuall when it is preached than when it is read Surely if you fetch your similitudes so farre and imagine that which was neuer ment and make the scripture a nose of ware as the Papists do you may conclude what you list For how hangeth this togither No man ascendeth vp into heauen but he that discended downe from heauen the sonne of man which is in heauen Ergo sayth commeth by preaching of the worde of God and not by reading of it Or this As Moses lifted vp the Serpent in the desert so must the sonne of man be lifted vp that all that beleeue in him c Therefore the worde of God hath more force when it is preached than when it is read This geare is to profound for me I cānot vnderstand it except I wil imagine that which is not and it may be that you were in some other déepe meditation when you wrote it and so applied this text to a wrong matter for in that place Christ foretelleth of his death and passion whereof the lifting vp of the Serpent Num. 21. in the wildernesse was a figure And although I am not ignorant that some do allegorie vpon this place saying that Christ is lifted vp by the preaching of the Gospell yet that maketh nothing agaynst me who no where denie this effect of preaching And it is a verie harde collection to say Christ is lifted vp by preaching therefore reading letteth him lye on the grounde as though by reading the Gospell Christ is not also lifted vp and made manifest vnto the eyes of the faythfull Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. in the middest It is called also a sweete Sauour and therefore as the spyces being brayed and 〈◊〉 smell 2. Cor. 2 sweeter and stronger than when they be whole and vnbroken so the worde by interpretation being broken and bruysed caryeth a sweeter sauour vnto the vnderstanding than when it is by reading giuen grosse and whole the same also may be sayde in that the preaching is called a cutting of the worde of God for as when the meate is cut and shred it nourisheth more than when it is not 2. Tim. 2. so so likewise it is in preaching and reading Io. Whitgifte Saint Paule speaking of himselfe and of the ministers of the worde sayth thus For we are vnto God the sweete sauour of Christ in them that are saued c. and 2. Tim. 2. Cor. 2. 2. Tim. 2. he admonisheth Timothie to cut the worde of truth rightly that is prudently and according to the capacitie of the hearers What conclude you of this Or what one worde is there in eyther of those places that derogateth any thing from reading Do you thinke that the prayse of preaching is the disprayse of reading As though they were one contrarie to an other and not rather both of them most profitable Is not the worde of God when it is read a sweete sauour Is there not prudencie and discretion required in reading the Scriptures Surely I am sorie that the Papists shall haue so iust cause to iest at your so vnapt alledging of the Scriptures and that they shall be animated in their ridiculous applications of the same by these and such like vntowarde allegations of yours Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. somevvhat past the midst And that which is brought by the Authours of the Admonition and so scornefully hurled away of M. doctor that Saint Paule compareth the preaching vnto pianting and watering is a 1. Cor. 3. very (*) Surely you will make a notable conclusion notable place to proue that there is no saluation
as vse to reade the scriptures and prayers to the people If you had sayde agaynst dumbe vnlearned ministers viewe these places you had sayde something For Reading ministers 1. Tim. 4. For reading ministers that is for reading the Scriptures publikely in the church by ministers view you these places 1. Tim. 4. Til I come giue attendance to readyng to exhortation to doctrine In the whiche wordes as Musculus sayeth Exprimit ordinem Ecclesiasticum quo primùm ex Musculus sacris Scripturis aliquid legebatur deinde exhortatio doctrina subijciebatur He expresseth the Ecclesiasticall order vvherein firste there is some thing reade out of the Scriptures then follovveth exhortation and doctrine Luke 4. Where wee learne that Christe beyng at Nazareth as his custome Christe read the scripture was wente into the Sinagogue on the Saboth day and stoode vp to reade c. And yet you saye Reading is not feedyng but it is as euill as playing Pag. 163 Lin. 2. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. vpon a stage and vvorse to for players yet learne theyr partes vvithout booke and these a many of them can scarcely reade vvithin booke That reading is feedyng Musculus giueth these reasons Firste Reading is feeding Musculus bycause it maketh the people experte and cunning in the Scriptures so that they can not be so easily deceyued with false teachers And therefore Iosephus Lib. 2. contra Appion speakyng of this commoditie of hauing the Scriptures read sayeth on this sorte In vnaquaque septimana ad legem audiendam conueniunt vniuersi Nostrorum quilibet de legibus interrogatus facilius quam nomen suum recitat vniuersas quippe mox à primo sensu discentes in animo velut inscriptas habemus Euery vveeke all the people come togither to heare the Lavve Euery one of vs demaunded any question of the lavve can ansvvere readily as he can tell his ovvne name For vvee learnyng the lavve euen from our youth haue it as it vvere vvritten in our memorie Secondly the publike reading of the Scripture is good for such as can not reade themselues to suche likewise as can reade but yet haue not the bookes of the holy Scripture at home in their houses Thirdly it maketh the people better to vnderstande the Sermons preached vnto them bycause through the continuall hearing of the Scriptures read they be acquainted with the wordes and phrases of the same Last of all it may be that some men be more edified by the simple reading of the scriptures than by sermons Admonition By this booke bare reading is (q) 1. Cor. 3. 5. good tilling and single seruice saying is excellent (r) 1. Cor. 3. 9. buylding and he is shepherde good inough that can as popish Priestes could out of their Portuis say fayrely their diuine seruice Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 165. Sect. vlt. Pag. 166. Here is much a do about bare reading and single seruice saying by like you lacke matter to make out your volume when you iterate one thing so often I tell you agayne no honest godly or learned man No godly mā 〈◊〉 reading in the churche euer hither to did or will disallow readyng of the Scriptures in the Churche or a prescript order of Common prayers Shew any learned mans iudgement to the contrary shewe the example of any Christian Churche of antiquitie or of any late reformed Churche wherein there is not both reading of the Scriptures in the publike congregation and a prescripte order of Common prayers Nay shewe any one sillable in the Scriptures to the contrary As for your places alleaged out of the 1. Corinth 3. vers 5. And 1. Corinth 3. vers 9 The one to proue that by the booke bare readyng is good tilling the other that by the same booke single seruice saying is excellent buyldyng c. They shewe your intollerable audacitie I will terme it no worse in abusing the Scriptures In that place to the Corinthes the Apostle sayeth thus VVho is Paule then vvho is Apollos 1. Cor. 3. But the mynisters by vvhomeyee beleeued and as the Lorde gaue to euery man Howe can you gather hereof that by the Communion booke bare readyng is good tilling or how can you hereof conclude that which I thinke you meane that the sole and onely reading of the Scriptures is not tilling or that the Scriptures may not be read in the open congregation by the Minister what s quele call you this Paule and Apollos be the ministers by whome you Unskilfull Logicians beleeued as the Lord gaue to euery man Therefore the readyng of the Scriptures edifie not or it is not lawfull for them to be read in the Churche by the Minister You come to soone from the vniuersitie to haue any great skill in Logike but belyke bycause there is mention made of tylling in the nexte verse of that chapter therefore you quote it in the margent missing onely the lyne for this is your vsuall manner if you haue but one worde in a texte whiche you vse in your booke you quote the place as though it made for your purpose This is neyther playne nor wise dealyng The examples of suche as haue bene conuerted by readyng of Pag. 168. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Many conuerted by hearing the scriptures read the Scriptures and hearyng of them read be infinite I knowe not wherevnto this your bitternesse agaynst readyng of the Scripture tendeth excepte it be to confirme an other opinion of the Papistes touching the obscuritie and darkenesse of the Scripture or diuerse senses and vnderstanding of the same If you ioyne with them in that also then I haue to say vnto you with S. Augustine In his quae apertè in Scripturis posita sunt inueniuntur illa omnia quae cōtinent sidē moresque viuēdi August In those things that be playne and manifest in the Scriptures are all such things conteyned vvhich perteyne to fayth and good manners And with Hierom. in Psalme 86. Sicut scripserunt Apostoli sic ipse Dominus hoc est per Euangelia Hierome sua locutus est vt non pauci intelligerent sed vt omnes Plato scripsit in scriptura sed non scripsit populo sed paucis vix enim intelligunt tres homines Isti verò hoc est principes E clesiae principes Christi non scripserunt paucis sed vniuerso populo As the Apostles vvrite so did the Lorde that is he spake by his Gospels not that a fevve but that all might vnderstand Plato vvritte but he vvritte to fevv not to the people for scarse three do vnderstand him these that is the Apostles vvritte not to fevv but to the vvhole people But I thinke you doubt not of this matter If the readyng of the scriptures edifie not what needed Chrysostome Chrysostome exhorteth the people to get Bibles writing vpon the third to the Coloss. so earnestly exhorte the people to get them Bibles or at the least the new
therefore I am bolde to speake as I haue learned out of the holy Scriptures and other godly wryters neyther is this to rende in sunder eyther the Sacraments from the worde or the Sacraments from them selues but to keepe the order vsed in the Churche in the Apostles time and since their time No man that is able to preache béeing for his other qualities also méete is debarred from ministring the Sacraments if he be in the ministerie but no man be he neuer so able in all respectes may presume to take an office vpon him wherevnto he is not called Therefore he that can not preache and yet by the order of the Tract 6. cap. 1. Tract 9. cap. 1 diuis 15. Churche is admitted to minister the Sacraments is a lawfull minister of the same and he that can preache excepte by order he be therevnto called maye not intrude him selfe into any function of the ministerie I haue also declared before that euen from the beginning the administration of the Sacramentes haue béene committed to some to whome the preaching of the worde hathe not béene committed The. 3. diuision Admonition Touching Deacons though their names be remayning yet is the office foully peruerted and turned vpside downe for their duetie in the Primitiue Churche was to (s) Rom. 12. 8. gather the a mes diligently and to distribute it faythfully also for the sicke and impotent persons to prouide paynefully hauing euer a diligent care that the charitie of godly men were not wasted vpon loyterers (t) 2. Th. 3. 10 and idle vagabounds Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 118. Sect. 2. It is true that in the primitiue Churche the office of a Deacon was to collect and prouide for the poore but not only for it was also their office to preache and to baptise For Stephen and Philip beeing Deacons dyd preache the Gospell Acts. 6. 7. 8. And Philip dyd baptise the Eunuche Act. 8. T. C. Pag. 128. Sect. 1. In the. 118. page vnto the example of Philip he addeth S. Stephen whyche was one of the Deacons which he affirmeth to haue preached But I denie it for all that long oration which he hath in the seuenth of the Actes is no sermon but a de ense of him selfe agaynst those accusations whych were layde agaynst hym as (*) No suche thing to be foūd in Beza his annotations M. Beza dothe very learnedly and substantially proue in his annotations vpon those places of S. Stephens disputations and defense Nowe to defende himselfe beeing accused is lawfull not for the Deacons onely but for any other Christian and we reade nothing that Stephen did there eyther touching the defense of his cause or the sharpe rebuking of the obstinate Pharisies and Priestes but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor ministers haue done with vs when they haue bene conuented before their persecutors and whereas he ayth that Philip baptised I haue shewed before by what authoritie he dyd it that is not in that he was a Deacon but for 〈◊〉 he was an Euangelist Io. Whitgifte This is a harde and new deuised shifte You imagine as I thinke that you are in Stephen hys oration a serm n. the Logike or Philosophy scholes where you may feyne what distinctions you liste but al wil not serue The accusations are conteyned in the. 13. 14. verse of the. 6. chap. let the Reader compare his sermon with them iudge whether he spake in the way of preaching or of defending himselfe Although a man may make his Apologie in preaching answere accusations in a sermon and surely that sharpe seuere repr hension that he concludeth with beginning at the. 51. verse doth euidently declare that it was a sermon Moreouer it was in the Synagogue which was called the Synagogue of the Libertines c. The ende of it was to proue true religion and the true worshipping of God to be affixed neither to the Temple nor to external ceremonies but to consist of fayth in God And yet I do not deny but that Stephē also did vse this sermon as an answere to those matters wherof he was accused but he answered in the way of preaching not of pleading And that doth M. Gualter directly affirme for Gualter although he cal this an oration a defense yet in the. 8. chap. he proueth by this example of Stephen that Deacōs were permitted togither with the charge of the goods of the Churche and of the poore to preache as I haue shewed before And the Authors of the Centuries speaking of that time say thus It appeareth also out of the. 6. 8. of the Acts Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. that Deacons did teach And in the same booke chap. Others were Deacons whose office was to serue the tables at Ierusalem so long as there was there a cōmunitie of goods Act. 6. notwithstāding it appeareth by Steuen Act. 6. by Philip Act. 8. that they did teach work myracles euery where in other Churches the office of Deacons was to teach minister I can not finde in M. Beza his Annotatiōs any such thing as you héere affirme Although if it were so yet doth it not improue this to be a sermon for then was the oration of Peters no sermō Act. 2. wherin he answered to those that accused the Apostles of drunkennesse neyther can Paule be sayde to haue preached Act. 24. If this be true that an Apologie may not be made by the way of preaching If it be lawfull thus to inuent distinctions to shift off so manyfest examples of Scriptures then it is an easy matter to shift off any thing that shall be propounded I haue proued by the Scripture it selfe by Epiphanius and by M. Gualter and by the authors of the Centuries that Philip béeing a Deacon dyd bothe baptise and preache and you onely deny it without eyther author or reason The. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 118. Sect. 2. Iustinus Martyr one of the moste auncient wryters in his seconde Deacons helped in the ministration of the supper Apologie sayth that in the administration of the Supper Deacons did distribute the bread and the wine to the people The same dothe M. Caluine affirme of Deacons in his Institutions chap. 19. T. C. Page 128. Sect. 1. 2. 3. He addeth further out of Iustine Martyr that the Deacons dyd distribute the bread and the wyne in the administration of the Supper Tully sayth in a certayne place that it is as greate a poynt of wisedome in an aduocate or pleader of causes to holde back and to keepe close that which is hurtfull to hys cause as it is to speake that which is profitable M. Doctor obserueth none of these poynts for besydes that the things whych he brought for the defense of the seruice booke are suche as they haue before appeared in seeking to defende it he manifestly oppugneth it For before h sayde that the booke of seruice
confess cap. 5. sayth that deacons did oftentimes supply the office of the Pastors Beza in the administration of the sacraments and celebrating of Mariage And to proue this he quoteth 1. Cor. 1. verse 14. 15. c. and Iohn 4. verse 2. But the thing is manyfest and can not be denyed wherefore you are but disposed to play Iohannes ad oppositum ¶ Of matters touching the Communion Tract 15. Of the orders and ceremonies vsed in the celebration of the Communion Cap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition They had no introite for Celestinus a Pope brought it in about the yere 430. But we haue borrowed ap ce of one out of the Masse booke Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 94. Sect. 1. 2. What you vnderstande heere by the Introite certaynely I knowe The introite not The first thing that we say at the Communion is the Lordes prayer which Celestinus did not inuent but Christe Matth. 6. nor The Apostles began the Lordes supper with the Lordes prayer first vse in the celebration of the Lordes Supper but the Apostles as we reade in good Chronicles next vnto that is a very godly and necessary prayer worthy to be sayde in the celebration of suche a mysterie and therefore no matter at all who inuented it or broughte it in And yet Celestinus was a godly Bishop and the Churche of Rome at that tyme had the substance of the sacraments according to Gods word neither was there any superstitiō mixed with them notwithstanding I know not any Introite of Celestinus inuētion that Celestinus introite what it was we haue in our order of the Communion for the Introite that he appointed was one of the psalmes as Volateranus Gratianus and Polydorus Vergiliu do testify And we haue not any psalme in the celebratiō of the supper if we had it were not to be reproued This I am sure of that it is not euill bycause it is in the Masse booke except it be repugnāt to the word of God for the Lords prayer The epistle and Gospell some of the psalmes the Gospells and Epistles the Nicene creede c. be in the Masse booke and yet good so is there some other good prayers in it also Admonition The second ▪ They read no fragments of the Epistle and Gospell we vse both Ansvvere Pag. 94. Sect. vlt. Pag. 95. Sect. 1. And what fault can you find in that is not the whole scripture and euery peece of it profitable to edify can the scripture at any time in the open congregation be read out of season being in a knowen tongue but I thinke your quarell is at reading not against the Epistle and the Gospell Always in the Churche there hathe bin red the scriptures in the celebration of the mysteries and I am sure the Gospell was not wont to be read from the one ende to the other at one time Well Reading of scriptures at the communion Anno. 111. Alexander it is but your opinion withoute reason that the Epistle and Gospell oughte not to be read at that time for you bring no proofe and I thinke the contrary Fyrst bycause they be scripture and tend to edify secondly bycause it hathe bin the manner of long tyme euen since Alexanders time Anno. 111. Admonition The third The Nicene creede was not read in their communion we haue it in ours Ansvvere Pag. 95. Sect. 3. The Nicene Creede and euery parte of it is grounded vppon the The Nicene Creede worde of God it was collected by that famous Councell of Nice to confounde that detestable heresie of the Arrians and therefore meete to be reade in all Christian congregations neyther can any mislyke it but Arrians and suche lyke of the whiche secte you gyue iust suspitions that you bee fautors This Creede in thys forme was not framed in the Apostles tyme bycause the heresie of Arrius was not then hatched And therefore no good reason to say it was not read in the Apostles tyme at the communion Ergo it ought not to be read now But thys argumente is intollerable the Nicene Creede is read at the communion therefore the communion is not sincerely ministred All these three reasons be taken ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore of no force excepte wee wyll also graunte these to bee true and suche lyke scilicet Then they had no Christian Princes and therefore we maye haue no Christian Princes Then they had no ciuill or politike lawes Ergo we ought to haue none Then the Churche had no externall peace but was vnder persecution Ergo it should haue no peace now Then Christians had proprietie in nothing but all thinges were common Ergo no man may haue any thing of his owne but common to other we do not reade expressely that Children were then baptised therefore they ought not to be baptised now for so do the Anabaptists reason neyther do we reade that women did then receiue the supper therefore they ought not to do it now with infinite other as absurd as these T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 1. Unto the three next sections conteyned in the. 94. 95. and a peece of the. 96. pages touching that which is called the Introite and (*) You may aswell call chapters fragments for they are but peeces of the gospells and epistles and were first so deuided by men fragments of the Epistles and Gospels and the rehearsall of the Nicene creede I haue declared before the causes of our misliking neyther meane I to stand to refute the slanderous surmises which M. Doctor raiseth of the authors of the Admonition whereby he would bring them into the suspition of Arrianisme to whom all those that feare God beare witnesse that they are moste farre from He him selfe notwithstanding once agayne in the laste of these three sections 96. pag. doth laye the manyfeste foundations of that part of Anabaptisme which standeth in hauing all things common saying directly against S. Peter that in 5. Act. the time of the Apostles Christians hadde proprietie in nothing And further giuing great cause of triumph of the one syde to the Eatabaptists and such as denie the baptisme of yong infants in matching that with those things which the church may although not without incommoditie yet withoute impietie bee withoute and of the other syde vnto the Papistes whylest he sayeth that wee reade not of any women which receyued the Lordes supper in the Apostles tyme. For this is that they alleage to proue their vnwritten verities when as it is easyly answered bothe to the Papistes and M. Doctor that forsomuche as the Apostle dothe witnesse that the Churches of Corinthe consisting of men and women did receyue that therfore women also did receyue and were partakers of the Lordes table Thus it is manifest that M. Doctor onely to displease the authors of the Admonition sticketh not to (*) He pleasureth them in declaring the absurdities of their arguments pleasure three notable heretikes
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
gubernatores tum ciuiles tum ecclesiastic s The gouernours of the Church as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall Howsoeuer it is the place béeing doubtful it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors as perpetuall Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition In steade of these Seniors in r Rom. 1 8 euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and yet we maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 115. Sect. vlt. You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. He that exhorteth let hym vvayte on exhortation he that distribute h let him do it vvith simplicitie he that ruleth vvith diligence he that shevveth mercy vvith cherefulnesse To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither or to what purpose you should alleage that place it neyther proueth that in euery Churche there was Elders neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor and of the Doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Church wherof one was occupied in the gouernment onely the other in prouiding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places as M. Caluine M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easily appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to dally with the scriptures to make them a nose of waxe in alleaging of these to proue the Elders that al men might vnderstande what terrible outc ies he maketh as in this place so almost in al other when there is cause that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth Io. Whitgifte The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y e former M. Caluine Caluine sayth that these words of the Apostle Qui pr est in diligentia he that ruleth with diligence may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus to all kind of rule or gouernment And M. Martyr vpon the same words sayth that he doubteth not multas fuisse in Martyr Beza ecclesia praefecturas that there were many gouernments in the Church M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros yet he addeth qui ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant which also sometime dyd preach the word M. Bucer sayth playnely Est praeterea qui praeest qui pascendi regendi ecclesiā mun accepit Bucer Furthermore he doth rule whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor not any vnpreaching Senior But what kinde of argument call you this he that ruleth must do it with diligence Ergo there must be Seniors in euery parish You should rather conclude thus therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment muste doe the same diligently and carefully So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors yet do they The place Rom. 12. is generall think y t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates gouernours therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors And M. Beza séemeth by y e name of Seniors to vnderstād the ministers of the word that is Bishops pastors and there is no doubt but that y e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt which y ◠Apostle hath generally spoken of al for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures to abuse them as the Papists do yea to make thē a nose of waxe as I haue sayd before Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to write not so muche to pro e that there were Seniors in euery Churche which is a thing confessed as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation esides his confession I neede haue no more but his owne reason For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church ▪ was in that tun wherin there were no christian Magistrates and when there was perfecution but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution and no christiā Magistrates therfore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation Io. Whitgifte If this be a good argument S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth he that uleth must doe it diligently Ergo euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Seniors Or this the Apostle 1. Cor. 12. sayth that God hath placed in his Churche gouernours Ergo euery parish must haue a Seigniorie Or this Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors therefore in euery Church there must be a company of Seniors to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted If I say these be good sure argumēts then haue I corruptly interpreted those places But if these arguments be not sounde if they haue no sequele in them if they be agaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates and long before especially for suche Elders as you meane if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God and finally if it bring in confusion then haue I truely interpreted those places and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche I saye still neyther is that the questiō for I aske y ◠question of your Seniors not of Ministers whome I call Seniors neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish there was suche a Seigniorie but in euery chiefe Citie nor that it was at all tymes in persecution and where there was no Christian Magistrate but ometimes neyther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times but that it may be And therefore you had done well if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes for all my graunte ¶ VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the seconde
Seniors Therefore this reason of yours is no reason at all but maketh directly against you if it be well considered Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142. Sect. 3. 4. Againe if S. Paule did charge the persecuted and therefore poore churches with the finding and prouiding for the Seniors in euery Church as it appeareth in y t Epistle to Timothie where 1. Epistle 5. he sayth that Elders which rule well are woorthy double honoure whereby he signifieth a plentifull reward and such as may be fully sufficient for them and their housholds as when he biddeth that the widdow which serued the Church in attending vpon the sicke and vppon the strangers should be honoured that is haue that wherewith she might honestly and soberly liue if I say S. Paule would charge the churches then with mainteyning the Elders whiche being poore were The question is not of the abilirie to find Seni ors but of the necesti ie of ha ing them not sometimes able to liue without some releefe from the Churche bycause they were compelled oftentimes to leaue their owne affayres to wait of the affaires of the Church howe much more ought there now to be Seniors when the churches be in peace and therefore not so poore when there may be chosen such for the most part throughout the real e as are able to liue without charging the Church any whit as the practise of these days doth manifestly declare And if S. Paule that was so desirous to haue the Gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is free and without charges as muche as is possible and soloth to lay any burthen vpon the churches especially those whiche were poore did notwithstanding enioyne the maintenance of the Elders vnto the churches poore and persecuted how much more shall we thinke that his mind was that the churches which liue in peace and are rich and may haue this office without charge ought to receiue this order of auncients Io. Whitgifte This is a poore and féeble reason the Churche founde Seniors in the time of persecution Ergo there ought rather to be Seniors vnder a Christian prince than in the time of persecution Or this the Church is now better able to finde Seniors Ergo it ought now rather to be gouerned by Seniors You may make the same reasons also for wydowes and diaconisses and as well induce the necessitie of them But we aske not what the Church was able to do then or what it is able to do now but whether the same gouernment ought to be now that was then and whether a Christian magistrate haue no more authoritie in the gouernmēt of y e Church now than the heathenish and persecuting magistrate had then Although if you consider the abilitie of some Parishes and the vnwillingnesse of other some you shall find that they be hardly able or willing to finde a fit Pastor muche lesse would they be able or willing to fynde a number of Seniors besydes their Pastor The place of S. Paule 1. Tim. 5. is vntruly alledged for your purpose for the Apostle meaneth of the Minister in euery congregation and not of any number of Seniors as I haue before declared Neither haue yon one place of Scripture to warrant your interpretation or application of that place God hath much better prouided for his church by placing in it ciuill and Christiā God hath prouided better for his church by giuyng chri stian magistrates then by Seniors magistrats whose authoritie is so ample large than by placing Seniors wherfore where Christian magistrates be the gouernment of Seniors is superfluous and the Church may not be burdened with vnnecessarie and vnprofitable charges neyther may the authoritie which God hath giuen to the Christian magistrate be writhen out of his hand by a rude companie of Seniors in seuerall parishes Chap. 2. the tenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 142. the laste lyne c. Moreouer those that belearned knowe that the gouernment of the Churche which was in the Apostles times being partly in respect of the people that had to do in the elections other things popular partly in respect of the Pastors and Auncients Aristocratical that is the rule of the best I say they know that these gouernmentes doe easyly decline into their contraries and by reason therof both the gouernment of those which were most vertuous might easily be changed into the gouernment of few of the richest or of greatest power and the popular estate might easily passe to a confused tumult Now this incōmoditie were they more subiect vnto vnder a tyrant than vnder a godlie prince For they had no ciuile magistrate which might correct and reforme those declinings when they happened For the tyrants did not know of it and if they hav knowne of it they would haue bene glad to see the churches goe to wracke therfore now we haue a godlie ciuil magistrate which both will and oughte to remedie suche declinations and conuersions of good gouernment into euill it followeth that this estate and gouernment by Auncients is rather to be vsed vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant Io. Whitgifte Those that be learned know that the gouernment of the church is neither populare nor The gouernment of the church monar chicall Aristocratical ▪ as it is before declared where you haue affirmed the lyke but a Monarchie For in euery particular church where there is a christian Magistrate he is chiefe and principall ouer the rest and you your selfe confesse that the Pastor is the chiefe of the Seigniorie whiche ought not to be if the state were eyther Popular or Aristocraticall Of the vniuersall churche onely Christ is the head and chief and therfore the state of it is Monarchicall But of the state and kinde of gouernmente of Tract 8. the church in euery kingdome or prouince I haue particularly and at large spoken in the treatise of Archbishops I shal not néed to will the Reader once againe to marke how you bend your force against a Monarchie For your principle is that the gouernment of the common wealthe C. T. bendeth his force against a monarchie must be framed according to the gouernment of the churche And therfore it maye not be a kingdome but rather a Popular estate or Aristocraticall bicause the gouernment of the Churche as you say is so But be it as you woulde haue it what then Forsooth it maye easylyer decline from a popular estate to a confused tumulte and from an Aristocratical state to the gouernmente of a fewe when there is no Christian Magistrate than when there is a Christian magistrate therefore it is more meete for the gouernmente of the Churche to be populare or Aristocraticall vnder a Christian Magistrate than vnder a tyrant Fyrste I deny your argument as béeing voyde of all sense and reason Secondly I saye that no Christian Magistrate is bound to suffer in his dominion so manie seueral and distinct kindes of gouernment and to
stirre the foundation And surely howesoeuer you will dallie off these Collections vppon your manyfest wordes similitudes and reasons with some deuised interpretation and shifte for it will stande you in hande so to doe yet what occasion you haue giuen therby to the common people and other that be contentious to mislyke of this present state and gouernmente wyse men can consider And to tell you playne excepte you haue some mysticall sense in them whiche I can not conceiue I sée not howe they can stande with your alleagiance I speake of the wordes as you haue vttered them I wil not enter into the depth of your meaning And I will hope the best vntil I vnderstand further of your mynde Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 133. Lin. 1. Neyther is there any authoritie in the whole Bible that enforceth or prescribeth that kinde of gouernment as necessarie or conuenient for all tymes no more than there is to proue that in the Churche there must be always such as haue power to work miracles or that haue the gift of healing and such like whiche offices notwithstanding are mentioned as well as gouernours in the first to the Cor. 12. T. C. Pag. 144. Sect. vlt. Nowe to come agayn to M. Doctors reasons he sayeth in the. 133. page that if they vrge gouernors bicause they are spoken of in the. 1 to the Cor. then they may aswell vrge the power o work miracles the gift of healing c. for that they are likewise reckned vp in the same place But doth not M. Doccor know that although some things be extraordinarie and for a time yet other some things are ordinarie and to endure always wil he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarie therfore the teachers which are there reckned together with the gifte of working miracles and of healing are extraordinarie hath he forgotten that he in deed vntruly made before the office of Apostles prophetes and euangelistes a perpetual office and yet they are there ioyned with these gifts which were but for a time and therfore it is a very absurd argument to say that for that some thing reckened with gouernours is for a tyme and extraordinarie therfore the gouernours also be so Io. Whitgifte And howe proue you that the office of Seniors is more ordinarie or of longer continuance than the office of Apostles Prophetes the power of working miracles and of healing which be in that place recited as well as those gouernours be whome you call Seniors You ought to haue proued the office of Seniors to be perpetuall for that I denye and shewe my reason that it can not be proued out of that place bycause other offices mentioned in that place to the Corinthians be temporall But this béeing moste materiall you passe it ouer bycause you are not able to proue it I hane tolde you before in what sense there may be both Apostles Prophets and Euangelistes And if I can not necessarily conclude y t the office of Seniors is temporal bicause it is rehersed among those offices gifts y t be tēporal much lesse can you cōclude that it is perpetuall the moste of the offices and giftes with it expressed béeing temporall Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 133. Lin. 9. Well sayth Musculus in his common places tit de Magist. Si reuocas temporum illorum mores primùm conditiones statum quoque illorum reuoca If thou vvilte vse the maners of that time first cal agayne the condition and state of that time That is let vs be without christian Magistrates as they were let vs be vnder Tyrants and persecutors as they were c. T. C. Page 145. Lin. 11. As for Musculus authoritie which is that the times doe chaunge the orders besides that I haue answered before besides that he doth not speake it of the Elders I haue proued that it can haue no place heere for somuch as the Elders are necessarie and commaunded in the scripture Io. Whitgifte Musculus in that place speaketh of the gouernment of the Church and of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in matters ecclesiasticall And proueth that the gouernment of the Church may not be now as it was in the Apostles time And a little before speaking of the Seigniorie he affirmeth as much as it appeareth in his words before recited You haue not as yet proued eyther the office of Seniors nowe to be necessarie or the same to be commaunded in the Scripture Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 133. in the midst You say it is more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert and corrupt one man than to peruert and ouerthrowe the fayth and pietie of a zelous and godly companie and therefore better the gouernment of the Churche to be committed to many than to one If this Retortion 〈◊〉 absurdi ▪ reason be good then the more there be that rule the better is the gouernment and so popularis status erit optimus reipublicae status agaynst all both diuinitie and Philosophie for we see that God him selfe in his common weale of Israell did alwayes allowe the gouernment and superioritie of one ouer the rest bothe in the time of Iudges and after in the time of the Kings And in the newe Testament we may also see that kind of gouernment most allowed of 1. Pet. 2. But I will not heere reason with you in this matter and call that into question which hath bin by so many learned men determined and by the examples of all good common weales confirmed T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1. Unto the Authors of y e Admonition saying y t it is easier to ouerthrow by bribing one mā than the fayth pietie of a godly companie he answereth that so it should come to passe that the moe y t ruled the better estate it should be and so the popular estate should be the best But where do the authors of the Admonition say that the more that rule the better it is Is it all one to saye that the gouernment of a fewe of the best is better than the gouernment of one and to saye the more that rule the better If it were to the purpose it might be shewed bothe by Diuinitie and by Philosophie which M. Doctor speaketh of that that estate which he meaneth is not the best and I haue in a worde before spoken of where I declared that the mixed estate is best bothe by the example of the kingdome of Christ and also of this our realme Io. Whitgifte But if this be a g od reason agaynst the rule and gouernment of one that the Admonition vseth then the moe that rule the better it is and this is all that I charge thē with Whervnto you answere not one worde but dally off the matter by asking where do the authors of the Admonition say that the moe that rule the better it is I might dally
158. Lin. 15. c. that can not sée Beside this it is a Popish and an vngodly opinion contrarie to the worthinesse and profitablenesse of the Scriptures contrarie to the wordes of Christ Iobn 5. Iohn 5. Search the Scripture c. contrarie to the wordes of the Apostle 2. Tim. 3. Omnis 2. Tim. 3. Tract 13. scriptura diuinitùs inspirata c. And contrarie to all that that I haue alleaged before for the reading of the Scriptures to the which for the further confutation of this vngodly error I do referre the Reader Ansvvere to the Detractions c. Fol. 3. Iu the same leafe and fift reason to these wordes Besides that we neuer reade in the new Testament that this worde Priest as touching office is vsed in the Correction with exceptiō good part In the seconde edition is added except it speake of the Leuiticall Priesthoode or of the Priesthood of Christ. Here as I thinke they haue forgotten that which Peter speaketh to all Christians in his 1. Epist. cap. 2. ver 5. And ye as lyuely stones be made a spirituall house and holy Priesthod to offer vp spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. ver 9. But ye are a chosen generation a royal priesthood c. And Apo. 1. And make vs Kings and Priests vnto God c. I willed them before to shew me one place in the whole newe Testament where this word Priest as touching the office is takē in euill part I may be deceyued but I desire to learne T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 1. And vpon the. 3. leafe where he giueth instance in the Apocalips of the word Priest to be taken otherwise than for the Leuitical priesthood and priesthood of our sauiour Christ. M. D. cannot be ignorant that the Admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deed properly and not by those which are priests by a inctaphore and borowed speach And wheras he desireth to learne where the worde priest is taken in euill part in all the new testament Although all men see how he asketh this question of no mind to learne yet if he will learne as he sayth he shall find that in (*) In what Chapter ▪ the Acts of the Apostles it is taken diuers times in euill part For seing that the office function of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is of priests was after our sauiour christs ascētion naught vngodly the name wherby they were called which did exercise that vngodly function cannot be otherwise takē than in the euil part Io. Whitgifte And what say you to the places of S. Peter is not this worde priest taken in good part there also I desired to haue one place in all the new Testamēt named vnto me where this word priest is taken in euil part you send me ouer to the Acts of the Apostles naming neither text nor chapter yet that satisfieth not my request for the Authors of the Admonition in their corrections except the Leuitical priesthood and the priesthood of Christ whereof onely there is mention made in the Actes of the Apostles except it be in the. 14. of the Acts where Luke speaketh of heathnish priests as of the priest of Jupiter so that my question is as yet vnanswered by you Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 5. But of the Bishops benediction by laying on of his handes heare master Caluines iudgement in this Instit. cap. 19. Section 4. Talem manuum Imposition of handes in confirmation allowed by Caluin impositionem quae simpliciter loco benedictionis fiat laudo restitutam hodiè in purum vsum velim Such imposition of handes as is simplie made in the stead of blessing I do commende and vvish that it vvere restored at this day to the pure vse There shall you also read the verie self same forme and maner of confirmation allowed which is now vsed in this Church of England T. C. Pag. 174. Sect. 2. Master Doctor vpon the. 5. leafe cyteth M. Caluins authoritie to proue that the laying on of the handes vpon yong children the confirmation which is here vsed is good In the which place although he allow of a kinde of confirmation yet he doth not commend that which we haue For he doth plainly reproue Ierome for saying that it came from the Apostles which notwithstanding the confirmation with vs doth affirme Besides that there are other abuses which I haue noted there which M. Caluin doth not by any worde allow He alloweth indeede of a putting on of handes of the children when they come out of their childehoode or begin to be yong men but as well as he doth allow of it he was one of those which did thrust it out of the Chuch where he was Pastor And (*) He re you make M. Caluine contrarie to him selfe but vntruly so he alloweth of it that he bringeth in the sixt Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it Where he asketh what the imposition of handes shoulde do now seeing that the giftes of the holy Ghost by that ceremonie is ceased Therefore seeing that we haue M. Caluins reason agaynst this imposition of handes his name ought not to be preiudiciall vnto vs especially seeing that we haue experience of great inconuemences which come by it which maister Caluin could not haue that thing being not in vse in that Church where he liued Which inconuenience in things which are not necessarie ought to be a iust cause of abolishing of them And this is not my indgement onely but the iudgement of the Churches of Heluetia Berne Tigurine Geneua Scotlande and diuers others as appeareth in the. 19. Chap. of their confession Io. Whitgifte The common refuge of the Replier is to discredite the Authour Here you would shift of M. Caluins authoritie if you knew how but béeing ouerpressed with his manifest wordes you flie to your common vsual refuge that is to discredite the Authour by charging him with contrarieties in this matter for you confesse that he alloweth a kind of confimation you say also that he alloweth in deed of a putting on of handes of the children when they come out of their childhoode or begin to be yong men and againe you affirme that he was one of those that did thrust it oute of the Churche where he was Pastor and that he bringeth in the 6. Section of the same Chapter a strong reason to abolish it Thus you set Master Caluine against himselfe and that in the same Caluin vntruely charged with contrariety by the Replyer Chapter which cannot but turne to his great discredite if it were true but you greatly abuse both the Reader and him for in the. 4. section which I haue alledged he speaketh of that maner of confirmation imposition of handes which was vsed in the olde Church and the same that is nowe vsed in the Church of Englande which he alloweth and wisheth restored In the fifth
churche is an ordinarie function in a Churche lawefully constituted which office in the. 30. he calleth the Deaconship Io. Whitgifte In neither of these doth M. Beza so tie prouiding for the poore to Deacons that they must by them be prouided for and by no other hée onely sheweth what was done in this case in the Apostles tyme and in the tymes immediatly following but there is neyther Scripture nor any learned wryter that teacheth that the poore may be by no other prouided for than by Deacons You proue that which no man denieth and speake not one worde of the matter in question that is whether of necessitie the poore must be prouided for by Deacons and not otherwyse T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. to the Romaynes speaking of the Elders whiche did assiste the Pastor in euery Churche and of the Deacons lamenteth that this order is so fallen out of the Churche that the names of these functions do scarce remayne Io. Whitgifte That which Peter Martyr speaketh in that place is spoken generally of all that the Apostle had before wrytten touching the publike ministers of the Churche and therfore you doe vniustly restrayne it only to Elders and Deacons It maye euidentlye appeare that M. Martyr maketh there a comparison betwixt the gouerranent of the Churche of Christe in the Apostles tyme the gouernment of the Popes Church in his tyme as his wordes following declare for thus he addeth immediatly In steade of these they haue brought in Taperbearers Acoluthes and Subdeaco which with their light and stagelike gestures serue at their superstitious altar So that you can not gather of this place that your Seigniorie is perpetuall and must of necessitie for euer remayne in the Churche T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kyngdome of Christ for the auncients of the Churche sayeth that the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the multitude of the people and in the. 14. chapter of the same booke sayeth that this order of Deaconship was religiously kept in the Churche vntill it was dryuen out by Antichriste Io. Whitgifte It had bene well to haue noted the chapter out of the which you gather that first saying of M. Bucer howebeit the matter is not great for the question is not whether the number of the Elders of euery Churche ought to be encreased according to the number of the people or no in such places where this kynde of gouernment is admitted but whether this kynde of gouernment muste of necessitie in all Churches and at all tymes be put in practise I doe not remember that M. Bu er any where affirmeth that In déede in the fifth chapter of the firste booke speakyng of these Seniors he sayeth Tales sanè possunt cum administris doctrinae Sacramentorum Christi disciplinam exercere c. Such may exercise the diseipline of Christe with the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes c. He sayeth they may doe it not that they ought to do it That whiche M. Bucer speaketh of the Deaconshippe in the 14. chapter is not denied but hee nowhere sayeth that the poore muste of necessitie hée prouided for by Deacons and by none other and hée teacheth in the same chapter that mo things apperteyned to the office of the Deacon than to prouide for the poore as namely to assiste the ministers in the administration of the Sacramentes and exercising of discipline What sufficient proofes these bée to induce that necessitie of the kynde of gouernment so greatly vrged by you let the learned Reader iudge T. C. 5 That excommunication pertayneth not to any one man in the Churche M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke and 11. Chapter and. 6. Section teacheth that excommunication porteyneth not to one man and that it was to wicked a facte that one man taking the authoritie which was common to other to hymselfe alone opened a waye to tyrannie tooke from the Churche hir right and abrogated the Church Senate ordeined by the spirite of Christe And in the. 12 chapter and. 7. Section he sayeth further that it ought not to be done without the knowledge and approbation of the Churche Io. Whitgifte Wée graunte that no one man ought to take that vnto hym selfe which doth not apperteyne vnto him but I haue proued Tract 18. that excommunication perteineth to Byshops and that this Church of England hath consented there vnto wherefore M. Ca uine speaketh against that excommunication whiche the Pope violently and tyrannically vsurpeth and not against this whiche our Bishoppes in this Churche of Englande both by the lawes of God and consent of the Churche exercise I speake of the thing it selfe and not of the abuse T. C. M. Beza in his confessions 5. chapter 43. Section sayeth that this power of excommunicating is giuen to no one man except it please God to worke extraordinarily Peter Martyr vpon the firste to the Corinthes and fifth chapter sayeth that it is very daungerous to permitte so waighty a matter as excommunication to the discretion and wil of any one man And therefore both that tyrannie might be auoyded and this censure execeuted with greater fruite and grauitie that the order whiche the Apostles there vseth is still to be obserued Io. Whitgifte To M. Beza and M. Martyr I answere as I dyd to M. Caluine and yet M. Martyr séemeth to expounde hym selfe in the same place where hée speakyng against the committing of this authoritie of excommunicating to the Pope or to one Bishop and refelling this saying of the Papistes Episcopum esse totam ecclesiā virtualiter when as they be rather tora ecclesia vitialiter as he there affirmeth he addeth by and by de malis haec intelligas tyrannicè agentibus Vnderstande this of euill Dishops and such as deale tyrannically whereby he declareth that he speaketh agaynst the committing of this discipline to euill Bishops and such as vse it tyrannically T. C. M. Bucer of the kingdome of Christ. in the. 1. book and. 9. chapter sayth that Saint Paule accuseth the Corinthians for that the whole Church did not cast out of their companie the incestuous person Io. Whitgifte The question is not whether the whole Church may haue to doe in excommunication or no but whither the consent therof is al tymes therein to be required What the meaning of the Apostle is in that place to the Corinth I haue declared Tract 15. T. C. 6 That Chauncellours Commissaries Officials c. vsurpe authoritie in the Church which belongeth not to them M. Caluine in his Institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 7. Sect. speaketh agaynst the office of Officials and alledgeth diuers reasons agaynst them as that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they handle matters whiche perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction Io. Whitgifie M. Caluin in that place alledgeth no reasons at al against those offices only he sayth that they exercise that part of the Bishops charge and that they
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
Cyprians time 1 No certaine forme of electing commaunded in Scripture 166. 1 Diuersitie of Elections in the Apostles times 167. 197 〈◊〉 Varietie vsed in Elections 〈◊〉 Reasons for the election by the people ansvvered 17 c. Elections by the multitude for the most part tumultuous 1 1 Electiō forbidden to the people 1 8 Three kindes of election in the Apostles time 1 Election and ordination may concurr 〈◊〉 Contention in popular electiōs 2 5 206. 213. 214. Reasons against popular electio 211 c. Popular elections an impedimen 〈◊〉 the ciuill Magistrate 〈◊〉 ¶ Emperours haue had the deci of ecclesiastical 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Councels sommoned by 〈◊〉 pag. 4 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ England not bound to the ples of other churches 7 ¶ Epaphroditus an Apostlt 〈◊〉 ¶ Ephes. 4. no perfit pat 〈◊〉 423. c. Ephes. 4. dis ssed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ¶ Epiphanius busied with ciu l ses 〈◊〉 Epiphanius alloweth superioritie pag. 4 The writings of Epiphanius 402 The whole Epistle to Timothe no commaundement 637 Epistie and Gospell in the church pag. 58 c ¶ Equalitie of Ministers wil pull on the equalitie of all estates 455 VVhy the Admonitors seeke equalltie 459 Equalitie of Ministers quoad m i sterium 389. c. Equalitie made a cloake for ambition 55. 459 VVhat kinde of Equalitie is pretended 299 ¶ Errours and daungerous doctrine of the Replyer 4 4. 50. 77. 82. 〈◊〉 120. 176. 180. 265. 307. 518. 532. 541. 566. 568. 582 621. 622. 646. 694. 784 A grosse Errour 151 ¶ Euangelistes remaine 229. Euangelistes haue an ordiuarie function 217 ¶ Eusebius gouernour of mo Churches than one 698. ¶ Eustathius deposed for apparell page 270. 271. ¶ Examples what they proue 506. 512. Examples of Luther c. against the Admonition 148. VVhat exāples of the Apostles times must be followed 101. Particular examples maye sometime be followed 516. A general doctrine may not be concluded of a singular exāple 562 A man may follow the example of him that is not continually with him 241 Examples of T. C. against him selfe 68. 152. 374. 395. 396. ¶ Exhortatiōs particular moue more than generall 601 ¶ Excommunication 660. c. Only ministers maye excommunicate 661 Excommunication more than exclu ding from externall societie 665 Excommunication not the only punishmēt of the church 764 The people not ministers but witnesses of Excommunication 666 Want of Excommunication no iust cause of separation frō the church pag. 81 Excommunication by one 665 c. Excōmunicate persons not receiued before publike repentance 671 VVhen Excommunication shoulde be ministred 673 Hovv the whole Church is sayde too Excommunicate 673 Bishops alone did Excommunicate pag. 678. 677. 679 The practise in Augustines tyme of Excommunication 678 A kind of ciuil Excommunic 679 F ¶ Falsifications of the Replier 49. 86. 107. c. 144. 184. 186. 203. 209 222. 268. 302. 314. 326. 350. 357. 370. 412 413. 415. 439. 467. 479. 547. 584. 669. 6 0. 673. 675. 698. 797. Errour and disorder mayntayned by falsifying 485 A False collection vppon Musculus wordes 67 ¶ Fasting on the Saboth day 99. 102 Fasting on the lordes day wicked pag. 99. 102 ¶ Fayth cometh by reading 252 No man knoweth who be Faythful pag. 621 ¶ Flauianus Archbishop 338 ¶ Caius Fimbria 708 ¶ The fourth Finger 723 ¶ Fontes 614 ¶ Diuersitie betwixt spiritual Food and externall 556 ¶ Forgery seeketh corners 338 ¶ Maister Foxe alloweth of Archbishops c. 421. ¶ Freewill doctrine thought not too be repugnant to saluation 82 Doctrine of Freewill raseth the foūdation of faith 82 83 ¶ Funerall sermons 732. c. Funerall sermons compared to Tren tals 732 Funerall sermons allowed by Caluin 732 The order of the primitiue church in Funeralls 734 Funerall sermons serue to comforte those that are greeued 735 An absurde argument against Funerall sermons 735 Funeral sermōs most necessary wher there are most papistes 736 G ¶ Gedeons Ephod 711 ¶ Getils tooke their Images for gods pag. 151 Gentils and papistes not like in all respectes 475 Gentils and Iewes liad somethings common 475 ¶ Gennadius 472 ¶ Gifts of god bestowed by meanes pag. 645 Howe euery function hath giftes needfull 316 ¶ Gloria patri 489. 496 Gloria in excelsis 602 All seeke not the glory of God that pretend it 42 ¶ Godlynesse breaketh no lawes 810 Godlines required in gouernors 684 All Godly men are not meete to gouerne 684 ¶ Godfathers their promis 612. c The promise of Godfathers restrayned to their power 612 Godfathers allowed by T. C. 613 Godfathers once disallowed and after recanted 798. 782 ¶ Good things may come from euil men 746 Good men defaced by those which do no good 241 ¶ Gouernement in the Cleargie not forbiddē but the kind of Gouernment 62 The pretence of restoring right Gouernment a cloak for further mis chief 2 Gouernement of one by lawe better thā of many without lawe 378 Three kinds of lawfull gouernment pag. 650 Matters of the kind of gouernment not necessarie to saluation 80 Two kinds of gouernment of the Church 80 In what respect gouernment is necessarie 81 The Church not tyed to one kind of Gouernment 81. 98. 640. 678. c. The kind of Gouernment alterable by M. Beza his iudgement 660. Gouernours in the Church 630 Diuers circumstances alter Gouernment 639. 659. 660. Gouernment of the Church Monarchicall 641 The Gouernment of the Common wealth ought not to be framed to the Gouernment of the Church 646. c. Spirituall Gouernment taketh not a way ciuill Magistracie 756 The Gouernment of the Church not only spirituall 756. 789 Gouernour in the Church not of the Church 789 ¶ Gregorie Bishop of Pontus 471 Gregorie made the Letanie 489 Gregorie for George 447 H ¶ Heretiks loose not their baptisme pag. 622 ¶ Hemingius alloweth superio itie pag. 419. c ¶ Hierome of the degree of Bishops aboue other Ministers 369. c. Hieromes Presbyterie and the Repli ers agree not 652 ¶ Holidayes 538. c The vse of Holydayes a stoppe to superstition 539 The Iewes appointed Holydayes 543 The Ievves had moe Holydayes than we 545 Holydayes obserued in reformed Churches 548 Difference betwixt Popishe Holy-dayes and ours 554 ¶ Homilies 715. c. Our Homiles free from errour 715 Some Homilies better than some ser mons 716 Homilies of Fathers red in the church 719. 720. Homilies read commendable 296 Bucers opinion of Homilies 719 Rvdleis iudgement of Homilies 720 ¶ The title of most honorable Lord giuen to Bishops 448 I ¶ Iames Bishop of Ierusalem 470. 384. ¶ Idolatrous sacrificers may bee Ministers 143. c. Three kindes of Idolatrie 152 Idolatrous thinges turned to common vse 273 Idolatrous things conuerted too the honor and seruice of God 284 ¶ Kneling at the name of Iesus 741 VVhy christians bowed at the name of Iesus 742 ¶ Maister Iewell concerninge Archbishops 422. c. Maister Iewell slaundered by T. C. pag. 422 ¶ The Iewes had their ceremonies particularly
not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is to bold hard a speech that I say no more to et the petegree of the Archbishop from the Apostles times and from the Apostles themselues Io. Whitgifte I must answere you still as Zuinglius answered the Anabaptists in the like obiection and as I haue answered you before the Papists make their traditions necessarie vnto saluation and therefore they are to be reiected bicause the worde of God conteyneth all things necessarie to saluation I make those offices part of decencie order Ecclesiasticall gouernment and pollicie whiche admitteth alteration as the tymes and persons require and are not particularly expressed in the Scriptures no more than diuerse other things be in the same kinde as I haue prooued before And that this may séeme no straunge matter or any thing fauouring the Papists vnwritten verities you may call to remembrance that which M. Caluin sayth of such traditions Caluine vpon these wordes 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodum tradidi vobis instituta tenetis I do not denie sayth he but that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written c. as I Tract 2. haue before recyted speaking of Ceremonies not expressed in the worde And you may sée that wise and learned men are not so scrupulous in Apostolicall traditions not written so that they be not such as are made necessarie vnto saluation neyther is any learned man of contrarie iudgement And therefore Archbishops may well be brought from the Apostles tymes without any daunger of admitting the vnwritten verities of the Papists You haue not yet proued that eyther the name or office of Archbishoppes is in any respect oppugned in the worde of God and therefore that is but feyned Chap. 3. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. But all this time M. doctor hath forgotten his question which was to proue an Archbishop whereas all these testimonies which he alledgeth make mention onely of a bishop therefore this may rather confirme the state of the bishop in this realme than the Archbishop But in the answere vnto them it shal appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an Archbishop mentioned so except only the name of a Bishop there shall be founde very little agreement betwene the Bishops in those dayes and those which are called Bishops in our time and with vs. Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor remembreth that the Authours of the Admonition aswell denie the office of a Bishop as the office of an Archbishop and hée is not ignorant that the proofe of the one is the confirmation of the other and therefore he vseth suche testimonies as perteyne to them both of the whiche nature those places be that he hath hitherto alledged For you muste vnderstande that I spake before of the name and nowe according to my promise I speake of the office whiche is not so farre distant from the Bishops but that in moste things they be confounded But let vs nowe heare how you performe your promise Chap. 3. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. And consequently although M. doctor thought with one whiting boxe to haue whited two walles by establishing our Archbishop and Bishop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shall be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Io. Whitgifte Wordes of pleasure too too vsuall with T. C. but of smal weight God be thanked and of lesse truth Chap. 3. the. 29. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. 3. Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieromes reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimonie of men that is onely to be regarded which is spoken either with some authoritie of the scripture or with some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speak without either scripture or reason he is as asily reiected as alleaged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedie vnto schismes how so least euery man sayth he drawing to himselfe do breake the Church in pieces But I would aske if the Church be not in as great daunger (*) Here you cōfound a monarchie and a tyrannie when all is done at the pleasure and iust of one man and when one carieth all into error as when one pulleth one piece with him an other another piece the third his part also with him And it is (a) Not so if tha one do gouerne by lawe harder to draw many into an error than one or that many should be caried away by their affections than one which is euident (b) Your similitudes hold not in water which if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but beeing much it is not so easily But by this ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the (c) Vntruth cause of discorde and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals Decret par 2. c. 9. q. 3. can Apost 33. alibi passim themselues (d) A good tor for contentio And admit it were so yet the peace which is without truth is more execrable than a thousande contentions For as by stryking of two flintes togither there commeth out fyre so it may be that sometymes by contention the truth which is hidden in a darke peace maye come to light which by a peace in naughtinesse and wickednesse being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare Io. Whitgifte Ierome being a man of such singular learning and great credite among those that be learned in a matter of Hystorie as this for hée reporteth when one Byshop was T. C. descredueth the author whom he cannot answe e. placed ouer the rest and for what cause is more to be beléeued withoute reasons than you with all your popular and friuolous arguments Let the reader againe consider whether this be your maner or no by vaine reasons to shake the credite of the authour when you cannot otherwise answere The reasons that you vse for the popular or Aristocraticall gouernment of the Church when they come among the people will be easily transferred to the state of the common weale and peraduenture bréede that misliking of ciuill gouernment that you would now haue of Ecclesiasticall to a further inconuenience and mischiefe than you and all yours will be able to remedie In the meane time you vtterly ouerthrow T. C. ouer he 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 ecclesiasti all the Quéenes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters giuen vnto hir by the lawes of God as hereafter shall be proued For if the state must eyther be popular or Aristocraticall then must there be no one supreme gouerner in Church matters but I wil come to your reasons First you aske whether the Churche be not in as great daunger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one carieth all