it be of like authoritie with the proper writtings of the Apostles Answere The first question was whether the Creed were made by the Apostles Whereunto hath beene rendred sufficient answere After which it is lawfull to make the second demand which is diuers from that Obiection The second dependeth on the first and so hath it been made Whether it bee thought sufficiently answered let the iudgement thereof be referred to the reader Answere Because it dependeth thereupon it is not therefore the same Question Whether they approoue the Creed onely because they know it to be conformable to the writings of the Apostles Or whether there any other cause which incyteth them to beleeue it Answere It is not onely conformable but the doctrine it selfe and for that cause doo they beleeue it and approoue it Question Whether a man be not bound to receiue it but for so much as hee knoweth it to bee the same writing or conformable to the writings of the Apostles as is aforesaid Answere The principall cause that may moue him that beleeueth it to beleeue it is the knowledge afore spoken of Question Although this be the principall cause they require an absolute answere whether there be not other sufficient cause to beleeue it in such wise as this first is necessarie Answere For the Creed and euery other thing we beleeue the principall cause is the knowledge we haue that the same hath bene left in writing or collected of the writings of the Prophets and Apostles And we for our part seeke no other reason but that of the faith which we haue Obiection They answere not vnder correction to the question which is whether to receiue the Creed of the Apostles this cause be necessary to know the cōformitie of the said Creed with the writings of the Apostles and that without the same none can or ought to receiue it The Doctors pray them to auoyd circumlocution and answere absolutely the one or the other And more simply to explane the question this it is to wit whether one ought not to receiue the Creed of the Apostles but because he knoweth that it is conformable to the Apostles writings Answere The matter considered after the doctrine of S. Paul that there is no true faith without knowledge and assurance of the word to beleeue it behoueth to know that it is the word of God Question It would be knowne whether they vnderstand this word to be written or not written Answere The word written and reuealed by the Prophets and Apostles which is the foundation of the Christian faith Obiection The Ministers doo then maintaine that before the beleeuing of the Creed or proposing it to be beleeued it behoueth to be instructed or to instruct an other in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets Now that is contrary to all the order euer holden in the Church and contrary to that which is contained in the forme prescribed for administration of the Sacraments in the Church at Geneua made by Caluin and inserted amongst his workes which beareth these words addressed to them that haue charge of the childe they baptise For as much as the matter wee haue in hand is to receiue this childe into the fellowship of the Christian Church yea do promise whē it shal come to yeares of discretion to instruct it in the doctrine which is receiued and approued of Gods people And after these words is inserted the Creed after which it is said they shall proceed to the instruction of the childe in all the doctrine contained in the holy scripture of the olde and new Testament so that before they propose the Creed to be beleeued they propose not to be beleeued that there is any word of God written nor what it is nor that therein contained to know the conformitie of the Creed with the same Also they place not the foundation of the beleeuing of the Creed vpon the knowledge and conformitie of the scripture but vpon the doctrine receiued and approued by the people of God As the auncient Church yea before the scriptures of the new Testament were written did wontedly propose both to great and small the beliefe of the Creed before they proposed the holy scriptures vnto them as by Christian antiquities appeareth And therefore the beliefe of a Christian touching the Creed dependeth not on the written word but vpon the word reuealed to the people and church of God Answere Touching the first article it is very necessarie that in teaching a childe or any other ignorant person the Creed of the Apostles they also forthwith teach him the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets seeing that which is contained in the Creed is no other thing but the selfe-same doctrine and that they are things not onely conioyned but also like if not in words yet at least in sence and substance Touching the second article they denie that that abouesaid is any way cōtrary to the established order in the church of Geneua or any other well gouerned Church And as touching the reason drawne frō the forme of the Baptisme vsed in the said Churches it followeth not by the alledged words and sayings thereof that Caluin proposed thē to exclude the Creed and to seperate the same from the writings and doctrine of the Prophets Apostles which is impossible but plainly to shewe that when he added that word hee meant therin to comprehend it and generally which the Doctors haue omitted in their allegation to comprehend that which remaineth in the holy scriptures after the deduction he had made of the points of doctrine particularly comprised in the Creed And for the other reason added that the Creed was proposed to those that were catechised before any booke of the new Testament was written they grant it But it followeth not therefore that it was not founded on the word and doctrine which the Apostles did preach although then not put in writing And likewise on the writings of the Prophets wherevpon is founded the doctrine of the Apostles For conclusion the Ministers put no difference as touching the sence betweene the word of God preached and written Obiection The Ministers it seemeth haue not well conceiued the meaning of the Doctors For the question is not whether the Creed bee conformable in it selfe to the writings Apostolike but whether it first behoueth to beleeue and vnderstand that the Apostles and Prophets haue put a doctrine in writing vnto which the Creed is conformable and that otherwise the Creed cannot bee beleeued And for more easie explanation the question is whether it be not possible for a childe being come to yeares of discretion or any other by the instruction of the father and mother or others to beleeue the articles of the Creed without being first instructed by them that there are certaine Apostolike writings vnto which the Articles of the Creed are conformable And whether to moue them so to beleeue it be necessary to know that conformitie Let the Ministers absolutely answere therevnto Answere Faith
is by hearing and hearing by the word of God wherevnto agreeth that which Iesus Christ saith putting the hearing of the word before the faith thereof saying He that heareth my word and beleeueth in him that sent me c. Also that which hee commaunded the Apostles first to preach the Gospell that the hearers might by preaching be disposed and brought to the faith For these reasons knowledge that the doctrine which is taught is the word of God is necessarie to beleeue And without that it is not possible for a man to haue faith or beleeue in God except he be first assured that what is taught him is the word of God And for the demaund made touching the instruction of children growne to yeares of discretion or others whether it be requisite they should know the word before they beleeue it The answere is yea And Thomas himselfe saith that the faith of the articles of the Creed ought to be expounded that is to say cleared which cannot be done without the knowledge of the word Obiection In such an answere there is multiplying of words without ought touching the point proposed for they doubt not but that they ought to Catechise children and others and to expound by the word of God the Articles of the Creed vnto them but the question is whether they must vnderstand that this Word is written in the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles so that without the knowledge of those writings they cannot haue the knowledge and beliefe of the articles of the faith contained in the said Creed The Doctors pray the Ministers to answere yea or no and after their answere to adde what reasons they will Which thing if they will not do the Doctors will proceed to an other article after notwithstanding for conclusion of all they haue shewed vnto them that if this knowledge of the scriptures were necessarie to vnderstand the articles of the Creed in examining them according to the conformitie of the same scriptures that it behooueth sith the foundation is so necessarie to place this among the Articles of the Creed I beleeue that there be holy scriptures And it is to be noted that there is not any mention made in the said Creed that there are holy scriptures So that a man may be truly a Christian before he vnderstand that there is any Christian doctrine and word of God written And therfore to beleeue and vnderstand the Creed it is not necessary to knowe the word of God to be written And the Doctors do protest that they will speake no more of this article Answere By conference of the demaunds and answeres it is easie to iudge who more abound in speech they which propound or they that answere Touching the second article the answere is as before that to beleeue and be a Christian the knowledge of Gods word is necessarie whether the said word be written or reuealed And as touching the remonstrance made the Ministers do answere that they for their part will in no wise allow men should ought adde to the pure word of God And they beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles is nothing else but the pure word of God which is proposed vnto vs by his spirit saying that it should bee a breach against his commandement to adde therevnto new articles And they do maintaine that had there bene other articles which had bene necessary to saluation the spirit of God would not haue omitted nor forgotten them For conclusion albeit no expresse mention bee made of the holy scripture in the Creed yet so much is there couertly vnderstood that the Church which cannot stand if shee be not built and founded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles is there proposed for an article to beleeue Reply The Doctors say that this answere is impertinent and no more to the purpose then the former And although the Prophets and Apostles had not written yet had the Church bin built vpon their foundation as it was in the time of AbrahaÌ„ and before there was any scripture which were it necessary to saluation it had bene put amongst the articles of faith Answere The Ministers say that this reply is yet more impertiment and for the reason thereto added that the faith was in the time of Abraham although there were no word written they do agree therevnto But it is ill inferred there is no written word There is therefore no word And it is a fallacie in argument which the Logicians doo call A dicto secundum quid ad dictuÌ„ simpliciter From a qualified saying to a saying simple The fourth dayes Dispute on Fryday the 12. of Iuly THe Ministers do shewe that they still continue their former requests considering the protestations aforesaid made by the Doctors who haue twise declared that they were not assembled but onely to satisfie the Lord Montpensier and my Lady of Buillon considering also the request publikely made by the said Lady in the assembly to bee instructed in the point of the Supper and not vpon the others whereof she thinketh her selfe sufficiently instructed and not to need therein any further teaching And for these causes do the Ministers request as before they haue done that the first thing whereof they shall conferre be that of the Supper and of the Masse And the rather for that they vnderstood by some worthy of credit that the Doctors intend not to enter into conference vpon that point Vpon this declaration the Doctors say that they are ashamed to heare so often protestations and that the Ministers it seemeth will thus spend the time to flee eftsoones the Conference of the articles of their confession which neuerthelesse they haue oftentimes set forth to be examined And where they say that Madame de Buillon for instruction of whom the company is assembled hath required publikely to bee instructed in the articles of the Masse and in no other They say that some mention shee made for Conference of the Masse but they neuer heard say that she held her selfe sufficiently instructed concerning the other articles The Doctors do offer that if the said Lady will confesse that she beleeueth all the other articles proposed by the Ministers and their like against the doctrine of the Catholike Church to be eâ—ronious they are presently readie to enter into Conference of the Masse But contrariwise if she be seduced with errors contrary to the doctrine of the Church Catholike to keepe the order which appertaineth to instructors and to lay the foundatioÌ„ of the Masse the Doctors haue determined according to the good holy desâ—e of my lord Montpensier to carâ—chife teach the Lady his daughter coÌ„cerning euery article by order And they further say that the Ministers do what they of their Church are accustomed which is alwaies to flie back froÌ„ the Confereâ—ence with the Catholikes and be forâ—the point proposed by them be decided they put an other in Dispute as did Beâ—a and the Ministers with him at Poissy who
seeing the Supper was to be handled against theÌ„ in the chamber of the Prior of Poissy in the preâ—â—ce of the Queen of the Prinoes of bloud of the Lords of the Councell they often requested to leaue that point vndecided hand to enter into some other which should be more euident against the Catholikes as of Images and other things And contrariwise the Ministers to auoyd now the great 〈◊〉 which be in their interpretation of the Creed would set forth the point of the Supper The Doctors beseech as they haue 〈◊〉 that there be no confusion in their doing and 〈◊〉 their religioâ—e examined by order and that it be noâ— thought that the Doctors doo refuse â—o enter into the Conference of the Masse and the Supper as they haue alwaies determined and neuer said vnder correction of all persons that they would not conferre theerof for my Ladies briefe instruction they are readie to dispute thereof by word of mouth and plainly to shewe by the expresse word of God that Iesus Christ instituted and said Masse and his Apostles also They do also offer that whatsoeuer shall be said by word of mouth vpon this matter be put in writing the next day after to be placed in it order as the instruction of my Lady doth require And do referre them for the day to the said Ladies opportunitie The Ministers do answere that all these answeres are superfluous and vnprofitable for as much as all such Conferences are nothing but debates and alâ—rications which doâ— offend and scandalize more then they edifie The Resolution of the Doctors THe Doctors ensuing the order alreadie begun and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and afterwards to giue a resolution for the instruction of my Lady of Buillon vpon the two points proposed yesterday to wit whether the Apostles were authors of the Creed And why we ought to beleeue it They say that to know whether the Apostles did make and erect the Creed ought no more to be esteemed a thing indifferent then to know whether the Apostles be authors of their owne writings For much more is the authoritie of them when a man is assured that they are certainly proceeded from the Apostles And contrariwise it should be far lesse if men did doubt therof or esteem it a thing indifferent Moreouer they say that it is no sufficient reason to call this Creed Apostolike and to intitle it the Creed of the Apostles in regard of the conformitie it hath with their writings For by this reason the other Creeds as that of Nice of Athâ—nâ—sius and all other the like writings may as well be named the Creed of the Apostles because they containe a doctrine agreeable to the Apostles writings Therefore say the Doctors it must be beleeued that the Apostles did make it and gaue the same Creed vnto Christians and that it must be beleeued as being a writing composed by the Apostles And their proofe thereof is that they alwayes finde since the Apostles time vntil now that this Creed hath bene proposed in Baptisme and Catechisme as it appeareth by the authors which haue beene from the Apostles vnto vs. And also that no man can name or note any Author or Councell but euen before that Author or Councell immediately to the Apostles time that Creed hath beene proposed in Baptisme and Cat chisme and called among Christians the rule of faith And the like argument S. Augustine in many places against the Donatists doth esteeme to be firme and inâ—incible to proue and shew that something is from the Apostles They willingly omit to auoyd â—ediousnesse the auncient writers as S. Ambrose S. Ierome others who acknowledge this Creed to haue bene made and receiued namely of the Apostles For the second point the Doctors do affirme that the bond and necessitie to beleeue this Creed doth not depend oâ— the knowledge of the Apostolike or Propheticaâ—â— scriptures nor on the knowledge of the conformitie with them For it was made and coâ—â—ained among the Christians in Baptisme before there was any Apostolike writing And in Baptisme they proposed the said Creed to be beleeued before they entâ—ed into the scripture or to speake thereof And in the Primatiue Church they examined the scriptures whether they were to be receiued or nor and the vndeâ—standing of them and whether a doctrine were true or false by this Creed and rule of faith and by it likenesse or conformitie with the same Ireneus Tertullian and others do teach it And although it should so happen that a man had neuer heard but the Creed without knowing whether there be holy scriptures or not hee might beleeue the said Creed and be a true Christian so that hee were voyd of other particular false opinion And contrariwise if the beliefe of the Creed did depend vpon the knowledge of the Propheticall oâ— Apostolike scriptures to vnderstand and to be assured of the conformitie that is therein as 〈◊〉 as to beleeue it 〈◊〉 none but the learned and well exercised in the scriptures who should bee assured of the said conformitie should be bound to beleeue the Creed or should at least be assured of the truth thereof And so should there he very fewe Christians Therfore the belleâ—ing of the Creed doth not depend vpon the knowledge of the scriptures By meanes whereof the Doctors do hold by tradition of the Church 〈◊〉 by the holy Ghost that the Creed is the Apostle and that none ought to doubt therof And by the same tradition it must be beleeued as 〈…〉 of the Apostles of like authoritie with that in their writings although they had no knowledge of the other scriptures And the Doctors are sory that they haue so much declined from answering pertinently and absolutely to these two points which they haue onely proposed to shew what faith and authoritie men ought to giue to this Creed and to all other doctrine receiued by tradition of the Apostles without Canonicall scripture which they will proue to haue bene left by them by the same meane and reason by which is shewed the Creed to haue bin deliuered to the Christians by the Apostles without that they put the same in writing Finally the Doctors do admonish such as read this Conference not to be astonished nor maâ—uell at so many perplexed declinings from the true end of the said points proposed And do pray them to remember the conferences made by S. Augustine with the Donatists and Pellagians wherin they shall finde like maner of dealing as that of the Ministers with whom they do conferre And for the present Conference referre themselues to the readers iudgement The Resolution of the Ministers THe Ministers following that which before hath bene proposed and alwaies by them maintained and for the confirmation also of the faith of the Lady of Buillon say that it is vncertaine as S. Ciprien hath written whether the Creed called the Apostles was made composed by them or else drawne or gathered out of their
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
Primitiue Church And the Doctors haue attributed them to him in whose name they are intituled And so much there is that the said Iustine in the place alledged layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ which being grosse and thick entered through the closed doores by the power of God contrary to the nature of a bodie And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision by reason of the entrie made without opening as spirites doo wontedly enter Let the text be seene S. Hillary saith not only that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were by the omnipotencie of God as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers hee repulseth mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties which vpon this act they imagined Nothing saith he gaue place to open to such a bodie and that it lost nothing of it substance nor by it entry was ought diminished He addeth That the doores and clefts were shut and fast barred And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ contrary to nature by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house close and couert without any opening wherein hee plainly sheweth that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ And for this let the text be viewed which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith That S. Thomas was abashed seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter Per in via septa corporibus Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu Through closures impassable for bodies And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist and in his Cōmentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn expresly saith Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat phantasma non erat spiritus vere corpus erat Quid enim dicit Respicite videte quia spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carnes habebat ossa clausa erant omnia Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa caro Clausa sunt omnia intrat quē intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei He that entred through the closed doores was not a vain vision was not a spirit it was truly a bodie For what saith he Behold and see For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me haue Hee had flesh hee had also bones and all thinges were shut How entered bones and flesh the doores being shut All thinges are shut and hee entereth whome wee see not entering How it is done thou knowest not and attributeth this to the power of God Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie as doth also S. Ambrose acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ in that hee passed through the shut doores by the omnipotencie of God S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth that the body pierced the closed doores euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls to see through without opening S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie which the Bishop of Ierusalem infected with the heresie of Origen held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection because contrary to the nature of a bodie he had passed through the closed doores wherein Saint Ierome as the other Auncients declareth that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie because it proceeded from a supernaturall power And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much where he vseth these words Iesus entered through the closed doores Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur Which thing the nature of humane bodies admitteth not So that with others he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ There is no doubt but S. Augustine in three places at the least maketh expresse mention that this body passed through the shut doores and that this was done by the power of God aboue the nature of bodies and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ besides the passages De agone Christiano and of the Epistle Ad volusianum alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei he saith so also Epiphanius in the first booke vpon the 20. Heresie and in the 2. booke vpon the 64. Heresie against the Origenists declareth that it is but a spirituall body to wit which looseth nothing of it corporall substance but changeth getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections and meete for spirites as to passe through the walles without opening And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection And euen so iudgeth as others do the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ and that because he pierced the shut doores as a spirit albeit hee were a true body Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also as the others this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord which by the like myracle walked vpon the waters against the nature of a body by the power of God and reproueth all them which ought suspected by this deed that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall By all these authorities the foure grounds proposed are true And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations is ouer-great impudencie For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza the Ministers to that ende produce two others to wit that the Angell opened the doore as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it or else had need of opening And the other is that the opening was made which way he pleased And by such diuersities the Ministers sufficiently declare that they know not where to rest And which is worse they could not alledge one only auncient Father for author of their fictions or that is contrary to all the others from the Primitiue Church And to alledge that the Iron gate in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord serueth nothing to the purpose For the Doctors neuer denied the same but haue well saide that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened the Euangelist had as easily said it as he said they were shut and as S. Luke saith that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe There is no doubt but peruerse spirits which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores with other Christians And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith to support their heresies as of all the other myracles hapned
that a Camell passed through the eye of a needle And yet is it saide that with God such thing is possible By the Ministers answere vnto the 29. article may easily bee seene that they deceiue and abuse their Disciples making them beleeue by faire words and writings that they really receiue in the Supper the true body of Iesus Christ the same which issued from the belly of the Virgin and was fastned vpon the Crosse for the restauration of mankind And wil make them to vnderstand that they who place not with the bread and wine in the Sacrament as they call it of the Supper but some spirituall effect onely as are the redemption righteousnesse sanctification life eternall and other gifts and benefites which Iesus Christ bringeth to his elect diminish the excellencie and dignitie of the same Sacrament and that they be Zuinglians But that besides such spirituall effects one must beleeue that hee receiueth truly the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper They hold neuerthelesse an other opinion For when they are pressed with arguments and cannot defend such an imaginarie and phantastike presence they confesse by their writings they are become Zuinglians and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper which is as much to say as besides the bread and wine they receiue a certaine spirituall effect and not really the body as the Ministers do in the present answere which thing they make manifest by that they cyte of the Apostle S. Paul by which citation may bee gathered what is their opinion concerning the Supper to wit that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not really but by spirituall effect onely in the hearts of the faithfull For the Galathians by the hearing of S. Pauls preaching receiued not really the body of Christ crucified but had onely an imagination of the Crosse and passion of Iesus Christ and receiued onely the fruite of their faith that is to say by this meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God also the allegation which the Ministers make of S. Ciprian tendeth to this ende to shewe that in the Supper are receiued some spirituall effects onely which neuerthelesse by these words to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ to sucke his bloud c. be allegorically signified Wherein they denie against the intent of S. Ciprian in the Sermon of the Supper the reall prefence of the body of Iesus Christ The Doctors confesse that the argument they haue made is addressed to Caluinists and not to Zuinglians And they supposed that the Ministers would not otherwise haue thought of this Sacrament then Caluin Beza and the other Ministers renowmed to be Ministers of the Caluinist Church which they call reformed An other maner of speech vsed they which exhibited the confession touching that Sacrament to the Bishops at Poissy who freely confessed the body of Iesus Christ to bee really present in that Sacrament which the Ministers in conference with the Doctors do now denie And hereby the Ministers in the iudgement of the Doctors of Caluenists become Almanists Wherewithall they that maintaine the doctrine of the Church which they call reformed will not be greatly pleased seeing their principall pillars for not being able to answere an argument obiected by the Doctors do leaue them in the businesse considering that in the answer they say themselues to be so much enlightned with the holy spirit which maketh them vnderstand know all things Concerninig the article following they doo openly declare what their present opinion is touching the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament by saying that the faithfull receiue no more in this time of the Gospell then did the Fathers before and vnder the lawe But certaine it is that the Fathers receiued not really the body of Iesus Christ which as then was not made Therefore the conclusion must follow that vnder the Gospell the body of Iesus Christ is not really receiued in the Sacrament which the Ministers call the Sacrament of the Supper To the 31. article they answere not as also they neuer could answere the same and they must necessarily confesse that in the power of their faith they do that which implyeth contradiction For they maintaine one thing to be present and not present at one selfe-same time and place And their spirituall or rather phantasticke presence maketh nothing to the purpose For according to their doctrine the body cannot be present but with it measures locally difinitiuely and corporally otherwise the body should be wholly abrogate and corrupted And the maner of it beeing there spiritually would not make that the body is not there or otherwise they falsly say it is present in the Supper and abuse the world Wherefore it is necessarie if the body be there yea spiritually and their doctrine of the nature of a body be true that the body of Iesus Christ be corporally difinitiuely and locally in the Supper Moreouer for as much as it is absent according to their confession it followeth that it is not there present And to conclude the Ministers say that it is there and not there And for the full solution without entering into the principall of the Argument they suppose to escape by obiecting to the Doctors some words of the breuiarie which the Doctors haue not yet seene The Ministers they thinke haue found them in some breuiarie of Monkes and remember when they were in the Couent that they were so accustomed to sing and say But although such things were found in the breuiaries vsed in the Romane Church such maner of speech might be defended in the sence which the Fathers haue giuen whē they said that the Apostles Conficiūt corpus Christi do make the body of Christ as the scripture it selfe saith that they baptise forgiue sinnes and saue those whom they conuerted which is meant as the Ministers of God Who of his owne authoritie and as Maister baptiseth forgiueth sinnes and iustifieth the faithfull persons Where the Ministers do maruell that the Doctors call faith a humane vertue the great and maruellous effects it worketh considered the Doctors say that the Ministers haue no great cause to maruell thereat seeing that euerie worke in as much as it is in man and that he therein worketh together with God is iudged and reputed humane Also the scripture calleth the faith of man the worke of man The Doctors shewe vnto the Ministers that after their wonted maner they dwell alwaies on small things and leaue that which is principall in the matter being ignorant or dissembling ignorance where lyeth the difficultie of that is handled As they do in their answere vpon the argument proposed by the Doctors whereby they obiect that the Ministers by their faith call they it diuine or humane may doo more then God can do wherevnto the Ministers without touching the point do answere with songs In the 32. article the Ministers lightly passe ouer many obiectious made them by the Doctors Whether there bee
shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
2. vnder the name of Oyntment and in many other places Obiection The places heere-aboue alledged make nothing to prooue that the Spirite was promised to all to iudge of the doctrine otherwise euen women and all faithfull Artificers should iudge of the doctrine as the Prophets and Apostles To the contrary whereof Saint Paul sayeth Nunquid omnes Prophetae c. Are all Prophets hee putteth downe expresly that the discerning of Spirites is to haue vnderstanding of the Scriptures and are gifts which are not common to all the faithfull but particular to some Answere The consequence which the Doctors gather is nothing worth forasmuch as the Spirit of God is more abundantly oft times comunicated to some then to others And some also are better exercised in the Scripture then others Touching the place of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 12. the Ministers say It maketh nothing against them forasmuch as the Spirit of prophecâ—e and the spirit of discretion are different gifts as it appeareth by the declaration which the Apostle maketh in the same Chapter The second dayes Dispute beeing Wednesday the tenth of Iuly THE Doctors required that their protestations the day before made might be registred which was such That they protested they would not enter into any Dispute of things receiued in the vniuersall Church from the Apostles time hitherto decided and determined by holy Eâ—umenicall and generall Councells holding them for certaine and indubitable and that all doctrine to the contrary was false But following the good and holy desire of the Lorde Montpensier and Madam de Buillon his daughter they were ready to make knowne by the verey exâ—resse word of God interpreted by the sayd vniuersall Church and Councells that their doctrine wherein the sayd Ladie was formerly instructed is sound and wholesome And that the instruction which hath beene giuen her to the contrarie is perniâ—ious and damnable And that this Conference is by way of instruction and not of Dispute The Ministers likewise protested that they assembled not with the Doctors for any doubt they had that whatsoeuer is conteined in their confessioÌ„ of faith is not certain and true and founded vpon the word of God as appeareth by the places of scripture quoted in the margeant of the said confession And doo beleeue that whatsoeuer is contrarie and opposite therevnto is damnable and to be reiected yea though an Angell from heauen should propose it And as touching themselues they were not come thither to be instructed in other doctrine then such as they follow and haue learned of Iesus Christ whom they acknowledge to be the onely maister and instructor of the Church It was declared by my Lord of Neuers that he desired after the obiections and answeres there should bee giuen a short resolution both of the one side and the other of that was conferred of the day before Following which remonstrance the Doctors say that to iudge of a booke whether it be the writing of holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a booke Canonicall from one Apocrypha or Ecclesiasticall a man must not rest on his owne priuate opinion or priuate and particular inspiration for as much as none haue ordinarie assurance that it is a true reuelation of the holy Ghost without reducing himselfe to the common consent and agreement of the Church vniuersall And also that God albeit hee had power to reueale and imprint in each one the true knowledge necessarie to saluation yet hath he ordained a certaine meane whereby faith is obtained which is a reuealed truth that is to say by hearing of the word of God preached by lawfull Ministers sent by the Pastors of the true Church as by the text of Saint Paul to the Rom. 10. and Ephes 4. appeareth If then the meane to haue faith and inward reuelation of the knowledge of saluation bee by the hearing of the word of God lawfully preached by the Ministers of the same according to the ordinary meane to be assured that a man hath inward reuelation It behoueth necessarily to bee assured that the word by which faith is obtained hath bene preached by the lawfull Ministers of the true Church And by consequence to be first assured of the church before his own inward reuelation following the meane which Iesus Christ hath followed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inward reuelation is when as it is reduced to the common consent of the Church And contrariwise that euery pretended inward inspiration particular and priuate is a false perswasion if it bee different from the common consent of the Church For the spirite of God is not particular but common And say moreouer that to finde out a false doctrine it behoueth to examine the same to knowe whether it bee priuate or common euen as our Lord hath giuen the true marke in Saint Iohn 8. saying Qui de se loquitur mendacium loquitur Hee that saieth any thing of himselfe and of his owne proper inspiration is a lyer And likewise as it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man prophesie against the Prophets of Israel that prophesie and say vnto them that prophesie out of their owne heart heare the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God Woe to the foolish Prophets which follow their owne spirit and haue seene nothing And afterward they haue seene vanitie and lying diuination saying The Lord saieth it and the Lord hath not sent them and they haue made others to hope that they would confirme the word of their prophesie And the verses following doo serue to the purpose Which false Prophets said they had an inward reuelation and the word of God They say also and let it be well wayed that the proppe of Religion grounded and assured vpon an inward inspiration is the foundation of many Sects in our time as of Anabaptists and Suencfildians who stay their doctrines vpon priuate reuelations and alledge the same texts to serue them for foundation of their doctrine which the Ministers yesterday alledged that is to say Ieremy in the third Chapter and Ioel. 2. and Saint Paul 1. Cor. 2. which Brentius and Bucer considering haue confessed that by the onely tradition of the Church wee are acertained of the bookes of the holy scripture in following the doctrine of the auncient Fathers as Saint Ierome who confesseth hee receiued by the tradition of the Church and by the same did knowe that there bee foure Gospels As much thereof saith Origen recyting the Canonicall bookes of the new Testament saying I haue learned by tradition that there bee foure Gospels And you shall not finde any auncient Catholicke which hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of bookes vpon his onely priuate and particular inspiration And Saint Augustine Liber Confess cap. 25. vseth these wordes Veritas tua domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admonens ne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
first instructed concerning the Masse The Doctors say that the Ministers by word of mouth haue instructed the said Lady not onely in the error which concerneth their Supper but also in many others as they will make it appeare when they shall handle the articles of the Confession by them exhibited Then willing to instruct the Lady by order in the Catholique Religion they purpose to follow the order held by the Fathers of the Church that is to say to shew vnto her how many errors against the Articles of the faith are contained in the Catechisme of their Ghurch although they shew to them of their religion that they differ in these articles nothing from the Catholiques And because to catechise and instruct one it behooueth to beginne at the foundation and that of certaine articles of the Creed in which the Ministers their like do erre dependeth the beginning of the proofe of the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar they will holde the order which all good teachers or instructors doo keepe in all discipline and the Ministers themselues do obserue following in their Catechisme this method And rightly were the Doctors to bee mocked whom men doo take for instructors if they should beginne for the Ministers pleasure to instruct one in that point wherein they ought to ende as endeth the same Catechisme of the Ministers vpon the matter of the Supper Moreouer seeing the Ministers are content as they say that all the articles of their confession bee examined no priuiledge haue they but that one begin at the first for as much as all order so requireth and it is alwayes at the choice of the Apponent to propound in such order as seemeth best to him the questions for the Dispute were there any And for as much as they are bound to giue a reason of their faith as often as they be therof required expedient it were for the good of the Lady for the instruction of those that shall read the Conference to follow this method And if they refuse what the Doctors doo offer they cannot auoyd it but all the world will iudge by the eye that distrusting their owne doctrine which they dare not vphold they confound the Conference Whereas they require that the Doctors in the Conference put foorth but one reason at once wherevnto they may answere without confusion or else that in one day the Doctors put forth all their reasons and on an other day the Ministers may come to answere The Doctors do say that the first offer is reasonable and to auoyd length of speech they accept it but they neuer heard say that the second maner hath bene practised and no need it were to assemble together in one place for that purpose but to send their writings the one to the other Answere Touching the exhibiting of the confession and the offers which the Doctors pretend to haue beene made by the Ministers the Ministers do report themselues to the Registers And do adde moreouer that it appeareth by the Doctors last proposition that it is not vpon the confession which the Doctors say was exhibited vnto them but vpon the Catechisme that they will ground their Dispute For conclusion the Miuisters do eftsoones protest as abouesaid that men may know who they be that doo flye the Lists and require that henceforth the order of arguing and answering may be by course betweene them and the Doctors For as much as it behoueth that things be equall and that it is reasonable that the Doctors as well do render a reason of their faith as the Ministers Reply The Doctors do referre them to what hath bene put in writing in the two first Conferences where speech was alwaies of examining the articles of their confession without making any mention of the Masse And where they say that it seemeth the Doctors would examine the Catechisme and not the articles of the confession the Doctors are content to examine the said articles by conferring them with the Catechisme This considered that these two ought to agree together they make all men iudges that shal read these writings in whom is the let that they begin not the Conference And for the order which the Ministers will now change a new fashion it is and also a new trouble cōsidering that hitherto they haue holden the place of respondent and haue presented to be examined the articles of their confession As for the Doctors they haue bene alwaies arguers and haue not for their part proposed ought to be examined Neuerthelesse they are contented after examination of the said confession that the Ministers doo propound the difficulties they shall haue against the Catholike doctrine wherevnto by the grace of God the Doctors will answere Demaund Whether the Ministers do beleeue the Creed called the Apostles to haue bene made by the Apostles and whether they do beleeue all that is contained therein Answere It is a thing in difference whether the Apostles being together themselues did write it each one of them bringing his sentence as some do hold or whether it hath bene gathered out of diuers places of their writings But so it is that in the reformed Church men beleeue euery point to bee drawne from the pure Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine contained in their writings as if one should say that it is a Summarie of the doctrine which the Apostles haue preached because it beareth and containeth the same Question Leauing to auoyd tediousnesse whether it bee a thing indifferent for a Christian to beleeue that a doctrine hath bene written by the Apostles or no if it be conformable to that which shal be found in holy writ they demaund whether all doctrine conformable to the said Letters may take indifferently the title of the Apostles or other authors of the scripture Answere No man can faile to call it Apostolike doctrine but in naming it Apostolike writing one might giue to vnderstand that it was written by their owne hands or spoken by them But howsoeuer it be where we shall acknowledge any doctrine to sauour of the spirit wherwith the holy men of God haue bin moued that call we Propheticall and Apostolike doctrine Obiection The demaund was not whether the doctrine be Apostolike for any such conformitie but whether for this reason it may be attributed to the Apostles and of like authoritie as the Scriptures vnto which it is conformable forasmuch as it proceedeth from one selfe same spirit as is sayd in the answere Answere The Answere thereto is made to wit that such a writing doth containe Apostolique doctrine and in some sence it may be said to be the Apostles Obiection The Answere vnder correction nought pertaineth to the question For it is not demaunded whether men may esteeme it Apostolique in respect of the conformitie but whether for this conformitie men may attribute it to the Apostles and giue vnto it the tytle and name of the Apostles and whether for the said conformitie
her childe-birth The fourth that Iesus Christ descended not into hell but by imagination and not really Also say the Ministers against the said article that Iesus Christ dispaired of his saluation vppon the tree of the Crosse that hee was troubled in conscience fearing to bee damned and many other errors contained in this Article Vpon which obiections they warne the Ministers to be readie to answere therevnto Answere The Ministers will bee readie to answere to the slaunders aforesaid The fift dayes Dispute on Monday the fifteenth of Iuly THe Ministers doo require that the request fomerly made and now againe repeated by the Lady of Buillon namely that the Doctors should speedily conferre with them concerning the points of the Masse may be registred to the end the occasion may be knowne why the Doctors do delay and go back from the said Conference The Doctors vnwilling to loose time and willing to pursue the last dayes agreement according wherevnto the Ministers ought to answere touching the errors contained in the doctrine by them preached against the articles of the Creed as the Doctors haue noted and proposed the same And to enter forthwith into the matter they shewe that the said Ministers haue euilly alledged Saint Ciprian for them to denie the Creed to be the Apostles For S. Ciprian doubteth not nor putteth in doubt as a thing indifferent whether it bee the Apostles or no but sheweth expresly that before they departed asunder they composed the said Creed as in the Preface of his exposition may appeare The Doctors demaund further vpon the article of the omnipotencie which is the foundation of the Supper and the holy Sacrament why the article of omnipotencie being the first and principall article of faith is not contained in the confession proposed by the mouth of Beza at Poissy before the King and many times since and inserted in many bookes And why they haue made so many different confessions of faith taking out of one what they haue put in and adding contrariwise to others that they haue omitted And how it happeneth that the article of the Trinitie is not expresly in the first confession of the 1564. yeare which yet they do confesse in all obscuritie Answere It shall appeare by the last dayes acts that the Ministers haue required what they yet require for the present namely that the point of the Masse bee first put forth to be decided because it is the chiefe occasion for which the Conference was appointed And concerning that they propose touching the Creed the Ministers neuer doubted nor yet do they doubt but that it is a pure Apostolike doctrine Which to euery man that shall read the acts of the last day aforesaid may appeare where at least in halfe a dozen places they haue alwaies confessed and repeated the same And that which they haue maintained to be doubtfull is onely whether the Creed were written by the Apostles themselues or not whereof nothing can appeare to be verified by the Doctors And S. Ciprian himselfe whom the Doctors haue produced in his Preface doth aduertise the readers of the great varietie there is touching the said Creed for as much as diuers Churches haue added therevnto diuers articles He doth also aduertise them that he followeth in his explication the order of the Church of Aquilea Yea and expounding the article of the discention into hell of which the Doctors make so much adoo he specially saith that it is not in the Creed of the Romane Church nor yet of the Easterne Churches Whence may bee gathered the incertaintie of that aboue said and that there is no article of which men may reasonably doubt whether it be of the number of those which the Apostles haue written or whether some Church hath added the same or else it must bee said that the Apostles had written diuers Creeds And for the difference which the Doctors doo pretend to be in the confessions of the reformed Churches printed and published at sundry times the Ministers denie them as touching the sence to differ one from the other although for more ample declaration thereof some tearmes haue possibly bene chaunged And where they propose that in some of them the article of the omnipotencie of God was omitted the Ministers doo denie it and require the Doctors to bring forth a copie of the confession in which they maintaine the same to haue bene omitted for were it so it should be falsified and corrupted Adding that there is nothing in their confession doubtfull or obscure which some of the said Doctors haue well declared when they made a forme of confession by the patterne of that of the reformed Churches vsing the proper tearmes and sentences vnto which they added nothing to make it varie that excepted for which they are in difference with the Ministers and which they would hardly ground vpon the scriptures Obiection The Doctors say that the Ministers by their deniall that S. Ciprian holdeth the Apostles were Authors makers and composers of the Creed do sufficiently shewe how bolde they are to denie things manifest All which they referre to the auditory present and to the readers of this writing For ground of which deniall they rest vpon a simple reason to wit vpon the article of the discention into hell whether it were inserted by the Apostles or added by others to make it doubtfull whether they are Authors of all the other Articles For it is as if a man should say it is vncertaine whether Saint Iohn composed his Gospell because there bee that doubt whether the Historie of the Adulteresse bee of him But leauing that the Doctors demaund whether they confesse not by their doctrine that God by his almightinesse cannot cause one body to be in two places two bodies in one place Thirdly that God cannot cause a body to be inuisible Fourthly that one body may be in one place without holding place equall to it greatnesse Answere All these questions are impertinent and enstranged from the confession of the Churches which neuerthelesse the Doctors haue chosen for foundation of all the Conference Wherfore the Ministers require that they dispute to the purpose and choose one article or many of the said confession whervpon they pretend to build their said questions Obiection These questions are very pertinent to impugne the Articles of the Ministers confession For the question is not of the proper words contained in the said confession which is not but a Summary of the faith but the Doctors will impugne the sence of the Articles which they doo knowe by their proper writings By which they openly witnesse touching the article of the omnipotencie that God cannot doo the things aforesaid And the Doctors do shewe that it well and fitly serueth to impugne the doctrine of heretickes and for the true meanes to proue against them that they receiue not the holy scripture when they proue that they receiue not the true sence thereof They say also that the Ministers themselues hauing desired
conference of the Masse are the cause of such questions and the Doctors by this meane will draw them therevnto For this article of the omnipotencie is the chiefe foundation to proue and maintaine the word of God and the reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar And the Doctors are abashed at so many declinings for when their confession is spoken of they demand the Masse and when they come to the Masse they demaund their confession Answere The Ministers do abash at so many superfluous things proposed by the Doctors And where they say that albeit they oppugne not the words of the said confession yet doo they oppugne the sence thereof The Ministers answere that the sence cannot be knowne but by the words And for this reason they wrap themselues in a contradictiō when as leauing the tearmes thereof they say they will confute the sence And as for the conclusion which they will drawe from Gods omnipotencie affirming that one body is in diuers places at one selfe-same instant the Ministers do denie that that by good consequence can be inferred of the omnipotencie of God Obiection The Doctors say that it doth well follow God cannot cause one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant God therefore is not almightie Answere The Ministers denie the consequence aforesaid and alledge reason because it appeareth by the holy scripture that God cannot denie himselfe and that it is impossible that he should lye Neuerthelesse it were blasphemie to inferre and conclude therevpon that he were not almightie For the omnipotencie of God ought to be measured according to his will and the things agreeable to his nature as teacheth the Mr. of the sentences saying In that is God omnipotent wherein his power is of might and not of infirmitie S. Ierome writing to Eustochius and confirming that aboue said saith as followeth I will boldly say although God can do all things yet can he not restore and reestablish a virgin after her fall Saint Augustine likewise writeth in the fift booke of the Citie of God cap. 10. in these words The power of God is in nothing lessened when it is said he cannot die nor be beguiled And a litle after God is almightie because there be things which he cannot do The same Author in the 26. of the same worke cap. 8. thus saith He that saith if God be almightie let him cause the things which be made that they be not made Perceiueth not that it is as much as if he said if hee be almightie let him make the things which are true in as much as they be true to be false Teodoret also in his third Dialogue conformable to that aboue said saith We must not without determination say that all things generally are possible to God For hee that so saieth absolutely comprehendeth things good and euill which are contrary in themselues And a little after hee affirmeth that God cannot sinne because it is a thing contrary to his nature Wherevpon hee concludeth that although many things there be which he cannot do for as much as there bee many sinnes yet for all that doth he not cease to be almightie Obiection The Doctors say that the reasons formerly brought do auaile and serue to shewe that the Ministers doo confesse the antecedent which seemed onely to be supposed to wit God cannot cause one body at one selfe instant to bee in two places no more then hee can make the things by them alledged For to this end doo they alledge them to declare that something there is which God cannot doo And to the present question to wit that one body cannot be in two places can they not apply them but to shew that the same is impossible to God And as touching the reasons alledged out of the holy scriptures God cannot lye nor denie himselfe these places vnder correction serue nought to this purpose For as they haue brought out of the Mr. of the sentences power to lye power to sinne is not power but impotencie contrariwise rather if God could sinne he should be impotent and weake and such thing also God cannot do for then should he repugne and destroy himselfe And as touching the examples brought out of S. Ierome and S. Augustine that God cannot make a virgin deflowred to bee yet a virgin or a thing done not to be done that vnderstood as the Logitians say In sensu Composito that is to say the things beeing such and so made is true And the reason is for that it would otherwise imply a contradiction But in the question proposed there is nothing like therevnto for the question onely demandeth whether God by his power can alter change the nature and qualitie of things created as whether he can make a thing heauie and masly abiding in it qualitie of waight and massinesse which naturally tendeth downeward by the onely power of God to hang in the ayre as in the holy scripture we read that the fire which naturally ascendeth doth descend by the power of God Also that the fire naturally hot and burning cooleth the qualitie thereof that is to say the heate remaining in the substance As also that two bodies bee in one selfe-same place as appeared when our Lord did enter where the Apostles were the the doores being shut or that a grosse and large body remaining in it grossenesse and largenesse do passe through a place vnproportionable to it greatnesse and largenesse as a cable through the eye of a needle All these examples are taken out of the holy scripture And if it must be that God cannot make one body to be in two places at once no more should he be able to do the things aforesaid for the reasons to this purpose they will afterwards declare And it will not be found that it hath euer entered into the braine of any Interpreter to denie such a power And the first that euer did openly denie it was first Peter Marter and after him Beza The Doctors further say that the forme of the argument which the Ministers do vse doth withstand and destroy that which God vseth in the holy scripture and the Angell speaking to the virgin For God ordinarily when he will assure something impossible to nature and which men cannot comprehend he generally alledgeth his power And the Angell willing to make a ground of the incarnation of our Lord doth alledge in generall that there is nothing impossible to God in regard of the creatures as the Angell speaketh Now so it is that the generalitie of an argument is destroyed by particular exceptions and is made by this meane vnprofitable and forcelesse When God then alledgeth in generall that his power can do it one may doubt thereof and esteeme the thing proposed of God to bee of those which are to him impossible as wel as the exceptions by the Ministers alledged And that should be false which the Angell saith That there is nothing impossible to God
any euill consequence seeing that all this doctrine is true and doth containe no manner of obscuritie And if any peraduenture take harme thereby it must bee imputed to themselues and their euill vnderstanding whereby not onely some doctrine but also the word of God it selfe may be sometimes peruerted and corrupted To be short all things as saith the Apostle be cleane to those that be cleane and polluted to those that be polluted and haue an euill conscience And where the Doctors alledge that one may take occasion by the doctrine abouesaid to interpret the scriptures according to his owne sence and fantasie the Ministers say no. And where some one would attempt the same they say it shall be easie to reiect his interpretation as not answerable to the rules and analogie of faith as the foresaid doctrine and interpretation of the Ministers is answerable therevnto Where the Doctors say that the Ministers do change and alter the scriptures The Ministers answere that it is a slaunder which can no way bee proued against them neither by their writings nor by their speeches nor by any thing they euer said or thought Concerning what they adde that the scripture saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places the Ministers denie it and do say that contrariwise the scriptures do establish it in heauen and nor else-where according as it is written The heauens must containe him vntill the time that all things bee restored which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy Prophers since the world began And where they alledge that the scripture ought not to bee interpreted according to euery mans sence and phantasie the Ministers do confesse it adding that all interpretations ought to bee examined as S. Paul saith but that such examination must bee done by conference of the scriptures And where the Doctors accuse the Ministers not to haue alledged any passages of the scripture for confirmation of the foresaid doctrine before they produced the auncient Fathers The Ministers do answere that it is a false accusation and that they should well haue remembred in the beginning of their discourse that they alledged to this end S. Paul 2. Tim. 2. Where it is said that God cannot denie himselfe And that which is written Hebr. 6. It is impossible that God can lye Which places with those they produced out of the auncient Fathers were not alledged to diminish ought the omnipotencie of God But rather to establish the same and cut off the way to many impieties and blasphemies which they would falsly propose and shrowde them vnder pretext of the omnipotencie of God without hauing regard to his reuealed will wherevnto we must referre the Omnipotencie The sixt dayes Dispute on Tuesday the 16. of Iuly THe Doctors obiect that they haue made such an argument God cannot cause one body to be in two places God is not therfore Omnipotent That this cōsequence is necessarie it is most manifest without other proofe by the lawe of contradiction For according to the rule holden in all schooles of Philosophie two contradictions cannot be true To haue power to do all things and to haue no power in certain particular things be contradictions For this particular thing is a part of all If thē the Antecedent be true of necessitie the consequence must be false according to the lawe of contradiction for they two as contradictories cannot be true together And notwithstanding albeit that by the knowledge of the termes thēselues a man might iudge the consequence to be good neuerthelesse it is plainly knowne by the deduction of the obiectiō against the answere of the Ministers that the Doctors haue proued the consequence The reason of the Ministers was thus God cannot lye hee cannot sinne hee cannot cause that things made be not made Therfore it either repugneth his nature or there is repugnancie on the behalf of the creatures bicause there is a folded contradiction Now the Doctors in their obiection haue said that there is nothing like in the question proposed that is to say whether one bodie may be in two places Whervpon they make such an argument taken from their obiection God can do all things which are not repugnant to his nature or where there is no repugnancie in the behalfe of things created and that no contradiction is therin implyed But to affirme one body may be in two places at one selfe-same instant is not a thing repugnant to the nature of God and on the behalfe of the body implyeth no contradiction God therefore can do it Or else thus God cannot do it It followeth therefore that God is not Omnipotent And so is proposed the reason and deduction of the antecedent and consequent Yea and the proofe of the assumptiō or second proposition For they haue proued there is no contradiction in saying that one body might be in two places and that it doth not repugne the nature of GOD whereof the probation hath bene made by example of like things As God can cause two bodies to be in one place and other like reasons deducted in the Obiection And where the Doctors say they preposterously argue from a particular to a generall It seemeth vnder correction they haue forgotten the rules of Lodgicke For very certaine it is that this rule hath place in affirming and not in denying But contrariwise when there is some thing affirmed in generall and the default in particular proued as say Logitians Ad negationem particularis sequitur negatio eius quod vniuersaliter affirmatuum est Likewise when there is some of a whole thing which hath many parts affirmed and default is proued in one part the destruction of the whole followeth As if one should say All the bodie is sound Hee that should proue one part of the bodie diseased should proue this proposition All the bodie is sound to be false Such is the argument which the Doctors haue made to wit If God cannot do one particular thing as to cause one bodie to be in two places then he cannot do all things Or if he can do all things he can do that also They are agrieued to be sent backe to their Logicke For they regarded no other ende but to make the antecent to be graunted to wit that God cannot make one bodie to be in two places And are verie glad to haue vnderstood the resolution of the Ministers vpon this Article that is to say That God cannot cause nor will one bodie to bee in two places for as much as it implyeth contradiction And where the Ministers doo say that the Doctors by their reasons could not thereof inferre the truth of the antecedent The Doctors confesse the same And thereby doo the Ministers also sufficiently perceiue that the reasons they haue brought are nothing worth to the confirmation of the antecedent which is their resolution But the Doctors say that these reasons albeit they be nought were to this end neuerthelesse produced by the Ministers to proue that
can do any thing against the said order which he hath put in the world And thirdly that were it so there should bee contradiction in his will whereby it would followe that hee should be a lyar And for the fourth blasphemie that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnesse And for the fift the Ministers pretend that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe instant hath beene in many places before they beleeue that God could doo it otherwise they intend to inferre that hee had not power and could not do it So that the Ministers will nought acknowledge of the power of God but so much thereof as hee hath shewed by effect And to that purpose they alledge Tertullian All which blasphemies be drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article Touching the first which is that God cannot make a thing which derogateth the order he hath established in the world it is very apparant that it is blasphemie by the holy scripture which in infinite places maketh mention of the workes of God aboue nature which the Ministers call the order established in the world And in proper termes teacheth that God can do infinite things aboue the order by him established in the world Namely that Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salte that a barren woman in her old age hauing an old husband brought forth a childe that a withered Rodde budded that an Asse spake that the sonne stayed and went backe and other more then innumerable examples contained in the old Testament And as touching the new that a virgin brought forth a child That a body walked vpō the water mounted into heauen And generally all the myracles that Christ and his Apostles did aboue nature which is contrary to the order established in the world And of this blasphemie ensueth an other that God since hee established his order in the world hath not done nor could nor can do any myracle Now to proue that the scripture teacheth clearely that God can do contrary to the order established in the world it is written in the 50. of Esay Is my hand that is to say my power so shortned that it cannot helpe or haue I no power to deliuer Behold at my rebuke I drie the sea I make the flouds desart Their fish rotteth for want of water and dyeth for thirst I cloathe the heauens with darknesse make a sacke their couering And more expresly in the new Testament where it is said by S. Iohn That God can of stones raise vp children to Abraham Which place although it may be expounded allegorically yet hath S. Iohn willed in the litterall sence to shewe that it was possible to God And the diue did know and confesse that if Iesus Christ were the true sonne of God he could chaunge the stones into bread Which is neuerthelesse contrary to the order established in the world And it must be noted that there is no more impossibilitie that the bread should bee chaunged into flesh by the omnipotencie of God then a stone into bread And therefore they which denie this last done by the power of God do shewe to beleeue lesse the almightinesse of God then the diuels The confutation of the second blasphemie dependeth on the confutation of the first For although God against the order established in the world hath done many myracles as hath beene before recyted yet neuerthelesse there is no mutabilitie nor chaunge in his counsaile Touching the third blasphemie which is that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the world there should be contradiction in his will and he should therfore be a lyar The Doctors obiect that it would follow that the will of God should be such neuer to will any thing contrary to the order established in the world And that God should haue purposed and declared by his word his will to be such For otherwise can they not know what the will of God shuld be And the Ministers do not nor can they make it appeare by the word of God the will of God to be such that he will not do any thing against the order established in the world And it behoueth the said Ministers to teach of such a wil of God before they conclude that God made one body to be in two places or other thing against the order of nature established in the world he should be a lyar Touching the fourth blasphemie which is that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnes according to the sence which the Ministers giue it to wit if God cannot but that which he will it is an heresie of the heretikes called Monarchians in the Primitiue Church Against whom Tertulliā wrote in his booke Aduersus Praxeā and afterwards renewed by Peter Abaillardus And since cōtinued by one called Wickliffe who measured the power of God according to his will Which is against the expresse word of God which often declareth many things possible to God that notwithstanding he wil not do as by that which is written in the 2. of Wisedome appeareth where mention is made that God could send vpon the children of Israel many kinds of affliction to chasten thē but he would not do it hauing disposed all things by number waight measure And that he could destroy those which had offended but that he would not vsing mercie towards thē And in the Gospel our Lord said to S. Peter Thinkest thou that I could not now pray my Father and he would send me more then 12. Legions of Angels And notwithstanding he would not pray for that purpose And his Father would not send them although he had power to do it to the person of his sonne And Iesus Christ himself could haue letted his enemies frō taking away his life but he would not And the Father saith S. Paul by his power could haue saued him frō corporall death But neuerthelesse hee would not do the one nor the other Notwithstanding the Ministers might say that it was preordained yet the scripture saith expresly that he could do it although it had bin preordained And as touching the authoritie of Tertullian the Doctors are glad that the Ministers do produce it because it maketh wholy for the truth against the blasphemy of the Ministers who haue omitted many words and sentences of the said Tertullian which serued to the confutation of their error as by the text here inserted may be easily iudged Nihil Deo difficile Quis hoc nesciat Et impossibilia apud seculum possibilia apud deū Quis ignorat Et stulta mūdi elegit Deus vt confundat sapientia Ergo inquiūt haeretici Monarchiani scilicet difficile non fuit deo ipsū se patrem Filiū facere aduersus traditam formā rebus humanis Nam Aerilē parere contra naturam difficile deo non fuit sicut nec virginē planè nichil Deo difficile
Tertullian in his booke of the Resurrection maketh after hee had disputed against them which denied the same to be possible with God And it seemeth they then said as the Ministers haue formerly said that there was something by the scriture impossible with God to wit that he could not lye nor deceiue and that thereof they tooke occasion to goe further and to dispute that the resurrection was to him also impossible So that the Ministers because God cannot lye haue endeuouted â—o inferre that to put one body in two places was impossible for him as well as to lye and deceiue Tertullian in the end accordeth with the Marcionists and saith Rather had I confesse that God cannot deceiue and that hee is onely weake and impotent in deceit to the end that thereby hee seeme not to haue taught and spoken one way and to haue otherwise disposed of the deed contained in his word Then if hee cannot concludeth Tertullian deceiue and abuse the resurrection must be beleeued as it is carried in his word and not otherwise least deceit be found in the word of God The Doctors say also they willingly confesse that God cannot lye nor deceiue and that it must therefore be beleeued that so he hath willed and ordained the truth of the Supper in such sort and not otherwise as his word soundeth and beareth Now so it is that his word plainly and expresly beareth that he affirmeth that what hee gaue with his hands to his Apostles to eat was his body deliuered for vs we must therefore beleeue that his word saith not otherwise then his will is least he be esteemed a lyar And that as he saith This is my body This is my bloud that it is so indeed The which the Doctors by Gods assistance will declare in the next Conference to shewe that he hath not onely power to establish his body in the holy Sacrament but also that he hath willed it and so hath done it Artictles proposed by the Doctosr for the next Conference and others following according to the order of the said Articles ALthough following the order of Conference touching the Apostles Creed they ought secondly to entreate of an other article as the Ministers themselues in the beginning of the Conference not onely accorded but demaunded offering the imprinted Articles of their confession bearing date the 1564. yeare from the first vnto the last to be examined by the Doctors Neuerthelesse the Doctors seeing it will not be much from the purpose after they haue intreated of the omnipotencie of God which extendeth to bee powerfull to cause the body of Iesus Christ to be in heauen and in the Sacrament in continuing that matter to enter into the probation of his will they are content to shewe that he hath not power onely but that also he hath wil and are consequently determined to refute all the blasphemies and heresies contained in their Supper which are called reformed to the end also they be not deemed to flye the list touching the Supper and the Masse as the Ministers haue reproached them Neuerthelesse they protest that their meaning is after the conclusion of this matter and resolution giuen to returne to examine the wonderfull errors of the Ministers which in number are many against the other articles of the Creed which thing the Ministers vnwilling that the Doctors should pursue the order begun do greatly feare as one may see and iudge foreseeing that in the next Conference an other blasphemie would be shewed them which the Church calling it selfe Reformed against the goodnesse of God after Caluins doctrine maintaineth to wit that God worketh in the reprobate the euill and sinne they commit which is an execrable Atheisme and no lesse then the deniall of the omnipotencie of God And they that can read these Conferences continuing to the ende of the discussion of the Ministers errors and of their religioÌ„ against all the articles of the Creed shall bee likewise abashed to vnderstand the absurdities and blasphemies issuing from the same An other point there is yet which inuiteth the Ministers to demaund tractation of the Supper which is that they haue the whole matter alreadie squared by many of their Sect who haue written of the same And chiefly the great booke of Peter Martir will not faile them Wherby they shal be furnished with I know not what infamous obiectioÌ„s of some passages of the Fathers broken depraued or euilly applied to impugne in shew the truth of the body in the Sacrament But for defence of all other their errors the Ministers are meanely armed and their conscience doth sufficiently witnesse that by the scripture decision of generall Councells and common accord of the writings of all the auncient Fathers no apparance to the contrary they are conuinced and condemned of their errors against the said Creed Now to enter into the examination of the Supper of the Ministers the Doctors do maintaine that it is a prophane eating and drinking not differing from common eating and drinking but in that it is worse that they abuse the holy institution of the Supper of Iesus and pollute and defile such their banket with all impietie blasphemie They also maintaine that the Ministers do great iniurie to the Sacrament of Iesus Christ falsly to attribute to such their prophane and polluted banket the name of Sacrament And to the end that the proofe thereof be more cleare the Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they receiue one common doctrine receiued not only in the Church Catholique but also almost in all Sects which are seperated from it That is that in the confection of the Sacraments there be two essentiall and necessarie things the matter or element and the word Secondly what word with the Element is necessary to make a Sacrament and namely that which the Ministers do call the Sacrament of the Supper and whether it behoueth to vse certaine words or no Thirdly whether the word haue some power or effectuall working in the Sacrament what whether it worke vpon something in the matter of the bread and wine Fourthly whether by the same word consecration bee made of the matter of the Sacrament or no Fiftly whether by the word consecration be not made of the matter to wit how the same consecration is made and by what vertue the same is made Sixtly whether besides the bread and wine and the spirituall graces and benefites of Iesus Christ the true body and bloud of Iesus Christ in their proper substance and not in spirituall effect onely be really receiued in the Supper And the Doctors do demand vpon this article a plaine confession of the faith of the Ministers They demaund further whether in receiuing the bread before taking of the wine they receiue not by the eating of the bread the body and bloud of Iesus Christ or the body onely Briefly whether they admit that which Diuines call a Concomitance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ They demaund also whether