Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	apostle_n	church_n	creed_n	2,605	5	10.2206	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10907	An answer to Mr. Fisher the Iesuite, his fiue propositions concerning Luther. By Mr. Rogers, that worthy Oxford diuine. VVith some passages also of the said Mr. Rogers with the said Mr. Fisher. Hereunto is annexed Mr. VV.C. his dialogue of the said argument, wherein is discouered Fishers folly	Rogers, Henry, ca. 1585-1658.; Crashaw, William, 1572-1626. aut	1623 (1623)	STC 21177; ESTC S116093	13,598	35

faith But the Protestant faith hath beene so maintained by such Authors Ergo The Protestant faith hath been maintained in all ages The Names of such as professed the faith of the Protestants in all ages since the incarnation of Christ In euery centure of yeares which is called saculum an age I will name some writers whose workes are extant Ab anno 1. ad 100. In the first centure Christ himselfe and his Apostles and Euangelists Ab 100 ad 100. In the second age Saint Iohn the Euangelist who died either Anno 100 or 101 to him we adde Ignatius and Polycarpus who though they liued in part of the first age and part of the second age they are alwayes reckoned Fathers of that age in which they dyed to these I adde Iustin Martyr Iraenaeus Ab ●●● ad 3●0 Tertullian Clemens Alexandrinus Origen Cyprian Lac●antius Ab 300. ad 400 Athanasius Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus Ambrosius Gregorius Mystenus Hieronymus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Ab 400. ad 500. Augustinus Cyrillus Alexandrinus Theodoretus Vincentius ●●riuensis Socrate● Zozomen Chrysologus Ab 500. ad 600 Bulgentius ●u●grius Gregorius primus Ab 70● ad ●00 Beda Damascenus Alcu●nus Thus hauing gon halfe the way I conclude with this Argument The Protestants saith is plainely expressed in the Canonicall Scripture and comprised in the Apostles Creede All these Fathers did professe that faith which is contained in the holy Canonicall Scripture and comprised in the Apostles Creede Ergo All these did professe the Protestants faith As I admonished Mr. Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation so I do these men and that faith is Affirmation not Negation for no man beleeueth which he denieth Secondly in point of faith I like Mr. Fe. rule They that are in the affirmatiue must proue now all that we affirme they affirme as one God three Persons all the Creede so that we neede not proue what our aduersaries doe confesse But in those points in variance betweene vs they are to proue because they are affirmatiue we negatiue as vnwritten Traditions Latin Seruice inuocation of Saints c. The Protestants faith being that which is contained in the Scriptures receiued fo● vndoubtedly Canonicall in the first 400. yeares which is summarily comprised in the Apostles Creede is receiued by all the Orthodox Fathers But those Fathers aboue named be all Orthodox Ergo The Maior is manifest the Minor I will proue out of their owne Authors concerning all sauing Tertullian in whom I must distinguish the times for first he was Orthodox though after an Heretike Hauing gone thus far at this time I vndertake for the rest and do require the like from the Romanists viz. That they will shew me the Names of such as taught the now saith of the Church of Rome in all ages and let them set me down the Names as I haue done And for instances in points of Romane faith in all ages I require these men to shew me the Names of those who in the 1. 2. 3. centure of yeares did preach or professe vnwritten traditions to be the rule of faith 2 that the vulgar translation is authenticall 3 that there are 7 Sacraments properly so called and no more 4 that the Bookes of the Machabes are Canonicall 5 transubstantiation 6 Inuocation of Saints 7 worshipping of Images c. This rule is proposed by them which though it be no necessarie consequence of faith yet it bindeth them that propose it to make good in particular out of their owne position thus I argue That is the true Church whose faith hath had visible professors in all ages The Romish faith had not visible professors in all ages Ergo The Romane Church is not a true Church An other Argument The true faith hath the testimonies of Vniuesalitie Antiquitie and Consent But the Romish faith as farre as they differ from the Protestant faith which they do in all the points aboue alledged hath not testimonies of 1. Vniuersalitie 2. Antiquitie 3. And Consent Ergo The Romish faith is not a true faith Let the Romanists answer these two Arguments in those particular points aboue written and I will be of their Church An Admonition to the Reader I Do not so meane that those Fathers by me named haue expressely set downe euery point of our faith in their seuerall writings neither can the Church of Rome doe it for theirs But being Orthodox right beleeuing Fathers they did consequently maintaine the Scriptures Apostles Creede Some passages had between Master Rogers and Master Fisher the Iesuite as followeth Fisher It being granted that there must be a visible Church in all ages of which all sorts must learne faith necessarie to saluation Rogers The perpetuall visibilitie of the Church I acknowledge But I pray you set me downe what a visible Church is and what you meane by those wordes which you put of another letter who you meane by all sorts whether the Children who die before they come to yeares of discretion doe learne this faith or dying before they come to learne it be not after Baptisme parts of the visible Church Secondly What you meane by learne whether an actuall explicite knowledge or an habituall only implicite knowledge Thirdly What points of faith you hold necessary to saluation The question propounded by M. Fisher at the intreaty of a Gentleman who desired satisfaction was Fisher Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages especially in the ages before Luther and whether the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors Rogers A Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doth was visible in all ages and I doe vndertake to proue it out of good Authors Fisher Mr. Fisher vndertooke to defend the negatiue part so as it did belong to his aduersaries to proue the affirmatiue M. Fisher explicated the meaning of his question to be First That his aduersaries should set down Names of men in all ages which they thought to be Protestants Secondly That they should shew out of good Authors proofe that they were Protestants Thirdly That they should defend them to hold nothing contrary to the Doctrin of the Protestants contained in the 39 Articles vnto which all English Ministers are sworne Rogers To the Second First I will show the Names of such as maintained our now faith in all ages and bring good proofe To the Third First It is no preiudice to our faith if the same Authors doe differ from vs in other opini●ns not concerning faith as long as they maintain our faith Secondly The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell Fisher Mr. Fisher offered me a like proportion to name and proue and defend professors of Romane religion holding nothing contrarie to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent Rogers You must expresse whether you haue all things defined in that

Councell to be matters of faith if you doe you can neuer performe what you haue promised I desired you therefore M. Fisher to expresse without ambiguitie the termes of this question whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages What you meane by Church what by Protestants what by visible I will deliuer my opinion in defining a Protestant Church The Protestant Church is a societie of men professing the faith expressed in the Canonicall Scriptures acknowledged to be such in the Primitiue Church comprised in the Apostles Creede explained in the other two Creedes of Nice Athanasius Ministring the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper by men of lawfull Ordination and calling Such a societie as this was in all ages Ergo. The Protestant Church was in all ages I desire you also to distinguish betweene matters of Discipline Doctrine Secondly to distinguish betweene 1. Doctrine Accessorie And 2. Doctrin Fundamentall Matter of faith consisteth not in Discipline but Doctrine and that Doctrine not accessorie but fundamentall By this distinction I meane the same which Aquinas doth by Res fidei 1. Per Se. 2. Per Accidens I distinguish betweene 1. Affirmation And 2. Negation In those Articles of our English Church our negation is partly a trauersing partly a condemning of your nouelties and additions and therefore no part of our faith for no man would deny his owne faith In all these I defend the Negatiue and so it doth belong to you to proue the affirmatiue Which when you shall do by testimony of writers in all ages I will yeeld to you For you prouing the affirmatiue the negatiue will fall of it selfe As for example the first instance of negation in our Articles is no part of the sixt Article concerning those Bookes of Esdras Tobie Iudith c which we receiue not for Canonicall you doe the proofe is on your side What I require of you I wil performe on our side whatsoeuer is affirmatiue in our Articles I will maintaine to be affirmed and taught in all ages as the 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Articles the affirmatiue part of the 6. 7. 8 and so in the rest or I will yeeld vnto you giue me instance with affirmation of our Articles you deny and I will proue it in all ages and I desire you to set downe withall which of our affirmatiue Articles you receiue and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creede or not I will do the like by you and giue you an instance in your affirmatiues shew me who in euery age did receiue the Bookes of Esdras Machabies Tobit Iudeth c. for Canonicall in the 1. 2. 3. 4 centure of yeares this is one of the first points of your Tridentiue faith I desire you also M. Fisher for the avoyding of confusion to deliuer your opinion whether all the affirmatiue Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of faith Per se fundamentall and necessarie to be held for saluation Fide explicata I speake de adubtis quibus facultas datur discendi And I do confesse that none of your side or ours haue giuen me ●ull satisfaction in this point which are Res fidei per se I therefore propose this M. Fisher as desirous to learne and to lay a foundation for further proceeding in this point of the visible Church Neither will I be sparing to deliuer my opinion with submission to better men and better leasure of my owne hauing bin these 6 moneths far from my Bookes and farther from leasure or repose to study I doe not thinke that all the affirmatiue Doctrines contained in our Articles are Res fidei per se fundamentall necessarie to saluation I therefore distinguish between Dogmata 1. Scholae these denied worke a priuat dissention 2. Ecclesiae these work an externall seperatiō from the Church 3. Fidei These denied worke an eternall damnation By Ecclesiae I meane not the essentiall Church but representatiue whether generall nationall or prouinciall That it is onely an error in the latter which is damnable not in the first and second vnlesse it be with obstinacy I will giue you instance as well as I can being without my Bookes Consubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100 not a Church tenent Transubstantiation was a Church tenent after the yeare 1200. 1. Ecclesiae Romanae but the reall presence vnderstanding thereby not a bodily presence but a true relation a Sacramentall obligation and spirituall exhibition of his body is Res fidei a point of faith Or thus Transubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100 a Church tenent Anno 1215 defined by Innocentius 3 in concil Latera but no point of faith because the bodie of religion or points of faith are without addition As Lyrinensis inuitetur animarum religio rationem corporum quae quotparuilorum membra tot virorum And as Aquinas saith The Articles of faith do grow quoad Explicationem Non Quod ad substantiam That which was no point of faith for the first 1200 yeares could be none afterwards vt supra Vincentius Lerinensis Aquinas But transubstantiation was no point of faith before the yeare 1200 Scotus Ergo transubstantiation is no point of faith If I doe not cite the words of Scotus aright impute it to my want of bookes for I haue none at this time yet I would lay the foundation of a friendly conference without trickes ambiguitie or bitternes I desire you also to obserue in the citing of the Fathers to alledge nothing for your opinion but what that Father hath held written and taught apertè frequenter perseueranter or at least that his words be plaine and his opinion such as that he hath not after recanted or crossed in his later workes I thinke it reasonable also that if I will iustifie the faith which is publikely professed and recessitated by our Church that I produce not onely some particular men deliuering their opinions but also proofes of some Church or visible societie who publikely professed the same faith in all ages The like I expect from you So the first thing is to expresse what is your faith what is ours Next what Society in all ages professed and publikely recessitated with your Church or ours doe publikely teach and recessitate I meane affirmatiuely not negatiuely for no man doth teach or recessitate what he doth denie This I haue briefely done in the definition of a Protestant Church I pray you giue me a definition of the Romane Church Whereas you say that all our Ministers are sworne to the 39 Articles you are deceiued it is not so FINIS A DIALOGVE CONCERNING THIS QVESTION VVhere was your Church before Luther and Caluin Giuing good directions how to discouer FISHERS folly By VV. C. Printed M.DC.XXIII Mr. W. C. his Dialogue concerning this question VVhere was your Church before Luther A Dialogue betweene E and D. E. ANswer this question Where was your Church before Luther D. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one countrey