use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches invested with the ordinary lasting power of ordaining Elders of binding and loosing and of setting things in order herein who were their Successors you may see if you will inform your selves in the book of binding and loosing and in the Latin dissertations against Blondellus Pray take it not ill that we often assert this it is of such concernence that with this truth the Ministers of England must either stand or fall We speak not for Bishops to be Lords of Lands but Fathers of the Church You must all mark that Tr. The difference 'twixt us appears plainly you are for Bishops which you call the Primitive Apostolical Bishops and in them you place the power which Christ hath left to his Church We are for the Bodies of Congregations which we say are under no superiors neither Bishops nor Presbyters but absolute and independent in respect of man and immediatly under Jesus Christ Col. A. Bishops and Presbyters are all one in the New Testament namely Acts 20. 17. Paul sent to Ephesus and called the Elders of the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and v. 28. the holy Ghost hath made you overseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Presbyters and Bishops are all one P. Noble Sir I answer Bishops in the new Testament are also called Presbyters but they are more than those we now call Presbyters who are to be ordained and governed by the Bishops Any Presbyter may be called Bishop or Overseer of his own Parish but those we eminently stile Bishops now who are Bishops or Overseers and Rulers of those Parish Bishops or Presbyters The Presbyters St. Paul sent for from Ephesus were properly Bishops Tr. No Hear my Argument The Church of Ephesus was but one Congregation I prove it out of Eph. 2. the two last verses In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together c. A building fitly framed together is but one Congregation But the Church of Ephesus was a building fitly framed together Therefore c. B. To the Major Not only one single Congregation but many united under one Bishop may be so called And that Ephesus was not a single Independent Congregation but a
to order and administer the affaires of Gods House signifying the territory or circuit of a Bishop So Creet may be well called the Diocese of Bishop Titus having under his inspection as t is plaine the Elders of the Cities there W. The Cities were not under Titus his Government he was not a Ruler of the Iland B. He was Ruler of all the Christians I mean onely them through all the Cities and Country Tr. But Titus was an Evangelist Therefore no Bishop B. I deny the Consequence He was an Evangelist while he went about Preaching and Planting the Gospell And he was the Bishop of Creet when he was fixed there by Paul to Ordaine Elders and put in order the things that were wanting H. We find Titus in other places beside Creet and Bishops of those times were not non-residents Therefore he was not Bishop of Creet B. Bishops may lawfully be and were antiently non-resident for some time to wit while they attend the business of Religion abroad and procured the greater good of the Church In which time of their absence their places are supplyed at home by their Deputies Tr. But Sir I pray consider Titus was an extraordinary Governor and therefore no Diocesan Bishop And you dispute fallaciously unless you put in the word Ordinary B. I say he was a Diocesan Bishop or if you will rather an Archbishop For I conceive the Elders of every City to have been Bishops and Overseers of severall Ministers and Congregations therefore he was an ordinary Governour Thus I argue He that ordaines Elders and orders the things in the Churches is an Ordinary But Titus ordaines Elders and orders things in the Churches Therefore Titus is an Ordinary Tr. But I mean he was called to that office in an extraordinary manner B. No neither He was called in the same manner as Timothy and others by Imposition of the Presbytery Therefore He was called in an Ordinary manner Col. A. Timothy was called saith Paul in another place by the laying on of his hands B. Noble Sir you say very true and the places are easily reconciled thus Divers Elders laid hands on Timothy among whom S. Paul probably was chief H. And was Paul too a Diocesan Bishop B. The Apostles common Diocese was the whole world which by agreement they divided among them and S. Paul was especially the Apostle of the Gentiles But in the Apostles I grant some things are extraordinary Tr. Pray make it out cleerely that Titus his case is not extraordinary otherwise you dispute fallaciously B. Truth needs no sophistry Thus I make it out The office that is to continue in the Church and to be succeeded in through following ages is no extraordinary office But this office of Titus is such Therefore c. H. What is it to continue to the worlds end B. Yes to the worlds end For it is Christs Promise I am with you alway even to the end of the world Mat. ult ult What say you to my argument Ordination and Jurisdiction are Offices or Powers needfull to the Church in all Ages This Office of Power or Titus was Ordination and Jurisdiction Therefore this Office of Titus is needfull to the Church in all Ages and therefore no extraordinary Office And my Brethren I would have you to know we are able to shew out of the best Records and Monuments of the Antient Church that there was a succession to the Apostolicall Bishops in these parts of their Office And the Catalogues of succeeding Bishops in severall Apostolicall Sees are yet extant And the Fathers and Councills and Ecclesiasticall Histories come in here with undeniable evidence that Diocesan Bishops are successors of the Apostles in the Government of Churches H. See godly Brethren the subtilty of this man He will not contain himself within the Holy Scripture but tells us of Fathers and Ecclesiasticall Stories and human Authorities B. Who succeeded in the government of Churches after the Apostles we must learn out of the writings of the next Ages And I tell you not only Fathers and Church-story but all other good learning is requisite in a compleat Divine Mark this you bold unlearned new-speakers and expounders of Scripture Mark it and remember it well And for the question of Church-government especially it is impossible to find a better way to understand the Scripture than by the practice of the primitive times of the Christian Church H. Expound Scripture by the practice of the primitive Church Do ye heare him brethren as if Scripture needed the help of the Church We thought we should finde him enclining to Popery B. I detest all Popery charge me not so ignorantly Upon my life I will make it good by the judgment of the most learned and sound Protestants that the practice of the primitive Church is a great light to Scripture But this requires the searching of Books which at your lesure I should be glad to shew you W. Protestants Whom do you mean by Protestants B. I mean those that protest against the Errors Innovations of the Roman Church in latter times and endeavour to reform Religion according to the Scripture and the primitive pattern H. You see he takes in the practice of the Primitive Church again B. I do and must and thus I argue That Government which in the primitive Ages took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government But the Government of Diocesan Bishops took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles Therefore the Government of the Diocesan Bishops is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government Now let me see who will answer me W. Antichrist Antichrist was working betimes B. Whether it be Antichristianism to establish or to over throw the Function of Bishops let all considering men judge by the Premises W. But why do you take in any thing else with Scripture as if that alone were not sufficient for us H. Yea Scripture Scripture we are contented with Scripture B. Give me leave to explain my self to All and I entreat you Harken The Scriptures perfection I do thankfully acknowledge but the things conteined in the Scripture are some of them conteined in it plainly and expresly to be apprehended by every Reader other things are conteined there implicitely virtually and so as there is need of many helps to make our deductions thence And for the Scripture-government I know no better light to shew it than the practice of the Antient Church I argue thus They that have commended to us the very Books of Scripture are fittest to give us the sense of them especially in point of Government But the Antient Church hath commended to us the very books of Scripture Therefore the Antient Church is fittest to give us the sense c. And I pray Mr. W. how will you prove that the Scripture is the Word of God W. I know it by the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in me B. But how will you convince another that will not believe your
of England The interpretation whereof is to my understanding this that the Calamities under which now we suffer have made us cease to be a Church But Blessed be God the Church of England is not invisible It is still preserved in Bishops and Presbyters rightly Ordained and multitudes rightly Baptized none of which have fallen off from their profession And the only thing imaginable to be objected in this point being this that the Schism hath so far been extended by the force that many if not most Churches parochial are filled by those who have set up a new or a no-form of worship and so that many men cannot any otherwise than in private Families serve God after the Church-way that sure will be of little weight when the Romanists are remembred to be the objectors who cannot but know that this is the only way that they have had of serving God in this kingdom these many years and that the night meetings of the Primitive Christians in Dens and Caves are as pettinent to the justifying of our condition as they can be of any and when 't is certain that the forsaking of the Assemblies Heb. 10. 25. is not our wilful fault v. 26. but only our unhappy lot who are forced either not to frequent the Assemblies or else to encourage and incur the scandal of seeming to approve the practices of those that have departed from the Church See the eminent Doctor in his new Book of Schism last Chapter Master Medes answer to Doctor Twiss touching Holiness of Times and Places p. 660. SIR I Say still there is eadem ratio Loci Tempor is sacri quà talis to wit for the sanctification or discrimination due to them both and the formal reason for which it is due For the formal reason why a thing is to be sanctified or sanctè habendum is because it is sanctum or sacrum and whatsoever is appropriate to God and his service is such be it by Gods own immediate ordination or humane devotion it is all one in this point so the consecration be supposed lawful and agreeable to the divine will For this sanctification depends neither upon the difference of the institution whether divine or humane nor the diversity of natural and artificial Being but upon the formalis ratio of the object because it is sacrum Moreover I believe the one was intended in the fourth Commandement as well as the other not only from that general rule whereby the Decalogue is to be interpreted but because the Lord himself hath conjoined them Lev. 19. 30. Keep my Sabhaths and reverence my Sanctuary Why may not I say Those whom God hath joined together let no man put asunder And it may be the sanctification of the Lords Day would be urged with more advantage upon the ground I have intimated than upon that other which is so much controverted But it is Partiality that undoes all Of Christian Prudence CHristian prudence forbids us to provoke a danger and they were fond persons that run to persecution and when the Proconsul sate on the life and death and made strict inquisition after Christians went and offer'd themselves to die and he was a fool that being in Portugal run to the Priest as he elevated the host and overthrew the mysteries and openly defyed the rites of that Religion God when he sends a persecution will pick out such persons whom he will have to dy whom he wil consign to banishment whom to poverty In the mean time let us do our duty when we can walking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Apostles phrase is not prevaricating in the least tittle and then if we can be safe with the arts of civil innocent in-offensive compliance let us bless God for his permissions made to us and his assistances in the using them But if either we turn our zeal into the ambition of death and the follies of an unnecessary beggary or on the other side turn our prudence into craft and covetousness to the first I say that God hath no pleasure in fools to the later If you gain the whole world and lose your own Soul your loss is infinite and intolerable Doctor Jer. Taylor Serm. 20. Sum. Of Liturgy and the use of Gifts in Prayer THough I am not against a Grave modest discreet and humble use of Ministers gifts even in publick the better to fit and excite their own and the Peoples affections to the present occasions Yet I know no necessity why private and single abilities should quite justle out and deprive the Church of the joint abilities and concurrent gifts and graces enabling them to compose with serious deliberation and concurrent advice such Forms of Prayers as may best fit the Churches common wants inform the hearers understanding and stir up that fiduciary and fervent application of their Spirits wherein consists the very Life and Soul of Prayer and that so much pretended Spirit of Prayer than any ptivate man by his solitary abilities can be presumed to have which what they are many times even there where they make a great noise and shew the affectations emptiness impertinency rudeness confusions flatness levity obscurity vain and ridiculous repetitions the senseless and oft-times blasphemous expressions all these burthened with a most tedious and intolerable length do sufficiently convince all men but those who glory in that pharasaick way 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 16. Of Moderate Episcopacy THe Abuses of Episcopacy deserve to be extirpated as much as the use retained for I think it far better to hold to Primitive and uniform Antiquity than to comply with divided Novelty A right Episcopacy would at once satisfy all just desires and interests of good Bishops humble Presbyters and sober people so as Church affairs should be managed neither with tyranny parity nor popularity neither Bishops ejected nor Presbyters despised nor people oppressed ibid. 17. Of the Primitive Church and Fathers IF the practice of the Primitive Church and the universal consent of the Fathers be not a convincing Argument when the Interpretation of Scripture is doubtful I know nothing for if this be not then of necessity the Interpretation of private Spirits must be admitted the which contradicts S. Peter 2 Pet. 1. 20. is the Mother of all sects and will if not prevented bring these Kingdoms into confusion And to say that an Argument is ill because the Papists use it or that such a thing is good because it is the custome of some of the reformed Churches cannot weigh with me untill you prove these to be infallible or that to maintain no Truth And how Diotrephes ambition who directly opposed the Apostle S. John can be an Argument against Episcopacy I do not understand His Majesties second paper to H. Of the same MY Conclusion is that albeit I never esteemed any Authority equall to the Scriptures yet I do think the unanimous consent of the Fathers and the Universall practice of the Primitive Church to be the best
actionem Haec etiamsi subtilius disputari possunt tamen ad regendas mentes hoe modo propositâ— accommodata videntur Accusemus ipsi nostram voluntatem cum labimur non quaeramus in Dei consilio causam contra eam nos erigamus sciamus Deum velle opitulari adesse luctantibus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 inquit Basilius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Excitetur ergo cura in nobis laudetur Dei immensa bonit as quum promisit auxilium praestat Haec non scribo ut tibi tradam quasi dictata homini eruditissimo ac peritissimo exercitiorum pietatis Et quidem scio haec cum tuis congruere sed sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad usum accommodata Haec Bonnae scripsi apud D. Bucerum cum eo accersitus est ut Ecclesias in Diocesi Coloniensi emendaret Haec consilia Deo piis votis commendes Philippus Melancthon Of the power of the Congregation LEt not any man think now that the Apostle communicateth this power with the Congregation of the Church of Corinth when he writeth to them 1 Cor. 5. 4 5. being assembled with his spirit to deliver the incestuous person to Satan For it is plain that the sentence is given by the Apostle vers 3. where he writeth For I verily as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already as though I were present concerning him that hath so done this deed And to cause this proceeding to be the better digested he hath vouched his power in the end of the chapter afore verse 18. Now some are puffed up as though I would not come unto you but I will come unto you shortly if the Lord will and will know not the speech of them that are puffed up but the power What will you shall I come unto you with a rod or with the spirit of meekness Which power otherwhiles he setteth before them in case of their disobedience And therefore it must be acknowledged that he writeth to them to see his sentence published ratified and executed which the Presbyters there had either neglected to do or perhaps were not able to bring the people under the Discipline of Christ's Kingdom which must needs oblige the Apostle to interpose And this without doubt is the reason why the Apostle writeth in these terms 1 Cor. 5. 12. For what have I to do to judge those that are without do not ye judge those that are within speaking to the Church in general though the sentence passed by Bishop and Presbyters because matters were censured in the Congregation and executed by the people And thus the practice of that time giveth a reason without straining why our Lord seemeth to refer these matters to the Congregation when he saith Tell it to the Church because they passed at their Assemblies though under Censure of Bishop and Presbyters And great reason there is why this regard should be had by the Apostle and by the Church afterwards to the People because the Church being a meer spiritual Commonwealth and not indued with temporal strength so much as to execute those sentences which the power of the Keys given by Christ obligeth it to inflict always setting wide that power of working miracles which was in the Apostle upon which some think he reflecteth in some passages of those Epistles requisite it was then the Congregation should be satisfied of the course of those proceedings which must come into execution and effect by their voluntary submission to the will of God and the office of his Ministers And as the matter is now that things of this nature proceed not upon mens private Consciences and Judgments in particulars but upon general rules of Common right requisite it is that the Common-wealth have satisfaction of those Laws according to which the Church now must proceed in their censures it being acknowledged that they cannot proceed with effect but by vertue of those Laws that are put in force by the secular Arm. Mr. Thorndike of Prim. Government p. 144. Reader Take for a Conclusion of all at this time that too pertinent Relation which you may read more at large in Mr. Hookers preface collected out of Guy de bres Of the Errour of the Anabaptists THey so much affected to cross the ordinary custome in every thing that when other mens use was to put on better attire they would be sure to shew themselves openly abroad in worse the ordinary names of the days in the week they thought it a kind of prophaness to use and therefore accustomed themselves to make no other distinction than by numbers The first second third day-They boldly avouched that themselves only had the truth and that since the Apostles lived the same was never before in all points sincerely taught Other disputation against their opinions than only by allegation of Scripture they would not hear besides it they thought no other writings in the world should be studyed in so much as one of their great Prophets exhorting them to cast away all respects unto human writings so far to his motion they condescended that as many as had any Books save the Holy Bible in their custody they brought and set them publickly on fire When they and their Bibles were alone together what strange phantasticall opinion soever at any time enterd into their heads their use was to think the Spirit taught it them Their own Ministers they highly magnified as men whose vocation was from God the rest their manner was to term disdainfully Scribes and Pharisees to account their calling an human creature and to detein the people as much as might be from heâ—ring thâ—m The custome of using God-fathers and God-mothers at Christnings they scorned Baptizing of Infants although confest by themselves to have been continued ever sithence the Apostles own times yet they altogether condemned The Eucharist they received pretending our Lord and Saviours example after Supper and for avoiding all those impieties which have been grounded upon the mysticall words of Christ This is my Body This is my Blood they thought it not safe to mention either body or blood in that Sacrament but rather to abrogate both and to use no words but these Take eate declare the death of our Lord Drink shew forth our Lords Death In rites and ceremonies their profession was hatred of all conformity with the Church of Rome for which cause they would rather endure any torment than observe the solemn Festivals which others did in as much as Antichrist they said was the first inventor of them The pretended end of their civil reformation was that Christ might have dominion over all that all Crowns and Scepters might be thrown down at his feet that no other might reign over Christian men but He no regiment to keep them in awe but his disciplin amongst them no sword at all to be carried besides his the sword of spirituall excommunication They laboured to bring in Community of goods because Christ by his