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A63393 The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word. W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. 1658 (1658) Wing T248; ESTC R31011 28,134 41

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the Spirit unto those who were the Penmen of the Scriptures and remaines unto us unto this day a rule in the letter concerning things to be beleeved and practiced by us E. B. I say the Scriptures Declare the Word of God and therefore are not the Word for that which declares and that which is Declared are not one and the same thing but two P. T. You have heard the distinction which is a full answer to this but do you not grant that that heavenly Doctrin which is there Declared is truth E. B. Yea I grant it P. T. And that those holy men of God who writ the Scriptures did both speak and write as they were moved by the holy Spirit E. B. Yea I say so also P. T. And that those things there declared and given forth in writing are things to be beleeved and practiced by us in these our dayes as well as by those in whose generation they were written E. B. I grant all this P. T. Then you say in effect the same and no other then what we do viz. that the Scriptures are the Declarative Word of God and consequently the wide difference as it seems betweene us concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God is rather in words and expressions then in matter and substance R. G. What they grant doth not yet satisfie us for they acknowledge the Scriptures onely a Declaration and deny it to be the Word but I say further and will prove it that the Scriptures are the Word of God W. F. The letter of the Scriptures R. G. Yea the Letter W. F. Mark that Collonel speaking to Collonel Bisco who was there present he sayes he will prove the letter to be the Word R. G. I say the Letter by a Figure Before the argument was laid down one of them called Quakers whose name I know not produced that text of the Apostle 2 Cor. 3.6 calling out to the People to hearken to the form of wholesome words who also hath made us able Ministers of the new Testament not of the Letter but of the Spirit for the Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life W. F. The Apostle was a Minister of the word and Gospel of Christ and he sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit but thou sayest the Letter is the Word of God and wilt undertake to prove it wilt thou then contradict the Apostle and prove him a Minister of the Letter when himself sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit R. G. You wrest the Apostles words who doth not there speak of or meane the Letter of the Scriptures but the difference between the legall and Gospel Ministration W. F. But thou saidst that thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God R. G. I said I would prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God which I am ready to do but ye are so full of words that ye will hear none but your selves nor give me leave to speak W. F. Well we will hear thee R. G. I lay it down in this argument That which Christ and his Apostles owned to be the word of God is indeed and in-truth the Word of God and ought to be so owned by us But Christ and his Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God Ergo The assumption or minor Proposition R. G. proved by two texts of Scripture the first concerning Christs owning the Scriptures to be the Word of God I doe not well remember but in stead of that take another Mark 7.13 Making the word of God of none authority by your tradition which ye have ordained c. The Lord Christ in the former part of the Chap reproves the hypocrisie of the Pharisees and tels them vers 8. For ye lay aside the Commands of God and observe the traditions of men The 10th verse makes it evident that by the Commands of God which they rejected Christ means the law given from God to the people of Israel by the hand of Moses which was a written Law and the same which he calls the Commands of God ver 8 9. he calls the word of God vers 13. making the word of God of none effect or of none authority by your traditions c. it relates to the Law given by Moses and more particularly to the fifth Commandement Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. which was one of the ten and written by the same hand as the rest were whence clearly appears that Christ owned and called the written Law the Word of God R. G. And that the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God will appear by comparing that text 1 Thess 2.13 with some others For this cause also we thank God without ceasing that when ye received the Word of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the Word of man but as it is indeed the Word of God You see in this text that what the Apostle preached and these Thessalonians received was indeed the word of God Now that which the Apostle preached was no other than what had been long before spoken and written by Moses and the Prophets For proof of this ye may consult Act. 26.22 and 28.23 whence appears that what was written by Moses and the Prophets was owned by the Apostle as the Word of God W. F. Thou speakest now of that which is written but didst undertake and saidst thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God P. T. He said by a Figure W. F. Thou saidst the Letter R. G. You cannot conceive since I speak of a Figure that my meaning was the meer writing but by Letter and Scripture I meant the thing conteining for the thing conteined the writing for the thing written E. B. Well I will answer thee The Apostle preached the Gospell and this we grant is the word and power of God to salvation unto every one that beleeveth the Gospell is the word and power of God but not the Scriptures and it is the Gospel which the Apostle preached and which the Thessalonians received not as the word of man but as it was indeed the word of God the Gospel is the Word of God the Scriptures are not P. T. There is a twofold coming of the Gospel viz. in word and secondly in power 1 Thes 1.5 and it is the same the very same Gospel of Christ in the hand of both Ministrations the same Gospel of Christ when it comes in word and Letter as when it comes in Spirit and Power Again the Apostle writ the same which he preached he did not preach one thing and write another but the same Gospel and word of truth which he preached the same he writ if that therefore which he preached was not the word of man but indeed the word of God then that which he writ was also not the word of man but truly indeed the word of God Let us here ad another text though not then
holy Scripture was written chiefly though not onely for the sake and benefit of the Saints to the Worlds end for their learning in chief was the Scripture given Rom. 15.4 and therefore that giddy Assertion which is affirmed to have dropped from E. Burroughs mouth viz. That the Scriptures are given to the World not to the Saints hath no footing to bear up it self upon E. B. I grant the Epistles were given to the Saints P. T. It is well you grant it though I do not see how you should deny it and not onely the Epistles but all other the holy Scriptures as the Apostle cals them 2 Tim. 3.15 were given to the Saints No more was spoken to this for the night grew on and I think hardly any but were sufficiently wearied with a confused and unprofitable Discourse The company beginning to break up E. B. pretended a charge against R. G. concerning something which he had preached either a year or years agone in Bedfordshire but the people not caring to hear him any longer he forbore to speak farther as to that and turned his discourse to his own Proselytes How far E. B. owns the authority of the Scriptures of the New-Testament doth not clearly appear and whether he denies the Scriptures of the Old-Testament as being of no use to the Saints I am not able to say but if this should be in his or in the heart of any of his followers let that of the Apostle be consulted with if the Scriptures which himself in so many words owned to be given to the Saints may be for satisfaction Rom. 15.4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning c. Things written aforetime relate to the Scriptures of the Old-Testament to those things written in the Books of Moses the Prophets and the Psalms c. and of these the Apostle affirms they were written for our learning which relates not to the World but to the Saints for the Apostle puts himself in the number of those for whose sake in chief these things were written The Apostle indeed tels us 1 Cor. 24.22 wherefore Tongues are for a sign not to them that beleeve but to them that beleeve not but the same Apostle affirms the Scripture to be given chiefly for the sake of the Saints and such who do beleeve in the text formerly mentioned There were some of the Company jealous of these men lest they might be Jesuites but I speak freely my thoughts I do not beleeve any such thing concerning either of them W. F. though a man of subtilty enough to make him one of that Fraternity which he discovered abundantly more in a former meeting as I was informed from some there present then in this yet was known to some of the Company from whence he came and how he hath turned from one thing to another till he came at last to this Sect of Quakers And for E. B. I do not apprehend him to be a man of such parts and of that measure of subtilty which is ordinarily found among the men of that Brotherhood unless he had more than an ordinary art of hiding himself under a garbe of pretended simplicity so that for my part I do not judge or beleeve any such thing concerning either of them though I fear too many such Deceivers are crept in among us shrouding themselves under several Forms where they can find most shelter and of these more who are Jesuites in Principles than Jesuites in Orders I apply it not to these I hope better things of them The second thing which was concerning Justification I passed over in its proper place but shall now give a brief hint of it in the close of this relation It was very large with multiplicity of words on their part called Quakers but as confused and unprofitable a discourse as ever I heard The thing delivered for Doctrine by E. B. and objected against by R. G. was II. That no man is further Justified than he is Sanctified E. B. Thou hast mistaken my words as laid down by me R. G. These were the very words you expressed and no alteration E. B. I said that Sanctification was an evidence of Justification and that no man could any further know himself to be justified than as he was sanctified R. G. You spake nothing of an Evidence or of a mans knowing his Justification by his Sanctification but confounded both together throughout your Discourse and having first laid it down as your Assertion That no man is Justified further than he is Sanctified you had also not long after these words viz. no man is justified further than he is restored E. B. I say that whosoever is justified is restored from a state of ignorance and death into a state of light and life and sanctified in the whole man that he may live to God P. T. Justification and Sanctification are never separate as to the subject Justified but whom God justifies the same he sanctifies yet are these two distinguished in their nature E. B. I grant that these are never divided but he that is justified is sanctified and he who is sanctified is justified R. G. Though not divided or separate when we speak of the person justified but the same who is justified is also sanctified yet are they distinguished in their proper natures and we may not confound them together but let us know what you own the cause of Justification E. B. The Free-Grace of God R. G. That is the primary efficient but I querie concerning the Meritorious cause or whether we are justified by that righteousness which Christ wrought out for us in his own person or by the work of righteousness which he works in us by his Spirit E. B. Justification is onely by Jesus Christ Upon this an ancient man of the company whose name I knew not desired to hear from E. B. what he beleeved concerning Christ for I have saith he read somewhat in a Book of yours concerning what you believe but that not giving full satisfaction as to what and how far you own Christ the Mediator between God and Man I would willingly be further satisfied at this time from your own mouth and this happily might give some further light concerning what you own in this point E. B. I beleeve that Christ was born of a Virgin and that both in his birth and life he was without sin that he was crucified at Jerusalem and rose again from the dead c. He fully acknowledged the History of Christs life and death but concerning the end of Christs dying he spake little if any thing at all I do not remember that his long confession had any thing of that acknowledgement in it Who was delivered for our offences and raised again for our Justification Rom. 4.25 and yet probable he may own it I believe he doth R. G. This is nothing to the purpose you have not yet granted Christs Righteousness a cause of Justification E. B. I say that we are
wicked men spake P. T. The Scripture consists of two parts An Historical and a Doctrinall part The former is a true record of severall things spoken and done by severall persons and upon severall occasions and here we grant that there are some things recorded which are in themselves false The Pharisees spake concerning Christ say we not well thou art a Samaritan and hast a Devil the thing as spoken by the Pharisees was false blasphemy against the Son of God and we also meet with many things left upon record in the Scriptures which the Devill and wicked men spake falsely but then we must distinguish between the thing related and the relation of it the relation is true though the thing as spoken by the Devill and wicked men is false the Scripture doth truly relate some things which were falsely seoken And concerning the Doctrinall part of the Scripture It is a true record of divine Truth concerning things to be beleeved and done having its rise from the pure Fountain the Spirit of truth E. B. We say and grant the same P. T. Where then lyes the difference Will. Fisher He was one of them called Quakers we all hear themselves acknowledge the Scriptures a declaration of falsehood as well as of truth and how then can this be the word of God P. T. Friend do not mistake nor goe about to pervert my words I distinguished the Scriptures into an Historical and doctrinal part And concerning the former I doe not say it is a false Declaration although some things declared therein are false The Scripture is a true Declaration of whatsoever it Declares and nothing of falsehood can be charged upon it it truly Declares those false things which some wicked ones spake the falsehood is theirs who spake it not the Scripture that relates it some of the Devils words which he upon severall accasions spake are there related but no where through the whole Scriptures are any of the Devils Doctrins taught but every where declared against and farther those falsehoods and blasphemies which the Devill and many wicked men spake which are there recorded are not the greatest part of what is written but that which is upon accasion here and there mentioned and the mentioning of these things is for our benefit and advantage that knowing what a one the Devill is we might more carefully watch against his wiles and take heed of associating our selves with such who are Children like this their Father least they prove a snare to us And concerning the Doctrinall part of Scripture you heard me call it a true record of divine Truth it is truth both in the declaration and in the thing declared and here I shall adde farther First That these Scriptures are no other then the language of the Spirit of truth which spake in those holy men of God who were the Pen-men thereof Secondly It is the same Spirit which dwels and speaks in the Saints now with that which dwelt and spake in the Saints in former dayes Thirdly The Spirit is so one and ever the same with it self that it never contradicts or speaks things contrary to it self E. B. we grant all this and say the same P. T. Then so farre we are one And from this grant we may adde though it was not then hinted that what soever Spirit brings any other or teaches contrary Doctrin to what was preached by Christ the Prophets and Apostles and left upon record in the holy Scriptures for our learning is not of God but of the Devil not the Spirit of Christ but of delusion in what garbe soever it comes E. B. I say no more then what the Scripture it self sayes viz. it is a Diclaration of things that were beleeved Luke 1.1 For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a Declaration of those things which are most surely beleeved among as ye see here it is called a Declaration of things that were beleeved this is Scripture language a Declaration of things which were beleeved P. T. You own it a Declaration of things that were beleeved in former dayes but do you own it a Declaration of things that are to be beleeved by us in this our day things that we are to beleeve E. B. Yea which we are to beleeve but still I say and I pray all take notice I say the Scripture is not the Word of God but a Declaration the Scripture is but writing and it is not the writing which is ihe Word but the thing written of P. T. Since ye are so shy of calling the Scriptures the word of God will ye own them the words of God the words of the Spirit of truth which spake in those servants of God who were the Pen-men thereof nothing was answered directly to this but a multitude of words heaped up together about a Diclaration of and the thing written of of many words but little matter why they should be so shy of calling them at least the words of God I cannot say unless they were afraid least such a grant should have made us too neare together For Christ useth both expressions John 5.24 Verely verely I say unto you he that heareth my word c. Chap. 8.31 If ye continue in my Word c. And in Mark 8.38 whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my word before this adulterous and sinfull generation c. John 8.47 He that is of God heareth Gods words John 15.7 If ye abide in me and my words abide in you c. and Iohn 14.23 where by word and words is meant one and the same thing viz. That Doctrine of divine and heavenly truth which was preached by Christ and afterwards by his Apostles the Spirit teaching them all things and bringing all things to their rememberance whatsoever Christ had said unto them John 14.26 this divine and heavenly Doctrin which was preached by Christ and his Apostles and afterwards delivered in writing and left upon record to this day in the Scriptures we call the Word or Words of God E. B. The thing written of I call the Word of God but not the Scripture which is no other then meer writing P. T. We distinguish betweene the writing and the thing written it is not the writing as it is meer inke and paper but the thing written which we own the Word of God W. F. Let us then at last se wherein we agree and wherein we differ we say Christ is the Word of God so say they we say the Scriptures are they which testifie of Christ so say they we say the Scripture is a Declaration of things to be beleeved so say they we say the writing is not the word of God so say they P. T. We say that Christ is the essential word and the Scriptures the Declarative Word of God not the meer writing but the thing written that divine and heavenly Doctrin which is contained in these writings is the pure word of truth given in by
mentioned 2 Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of the Prophets c. The Apostle Peter cals that which the Prophets spake and writ the Word ye will not I hope say the word of man but the word of God in the mouth and writings of the Prophets E. B. The Scripture is that a man may carry up and down with him in his hand or pocket but so he cannot the word yea if the Scripture be the word then I may say I have the word of God in my hand lifting up his Book to the people that all might see it then I may say I have Christ in my hand and I have the Spirit in my hand I have Life and Death Heaven and Hell in my hand c. R. G. You have that in your hand which declares all these these were R. G. words not as some have said you have the thing signified but you have that which Declares all these E. B. So I say this Scripture Declares those things it is a Declaration of the Word but is not it self the Word P. T. It is not the Essentiall word but the Declarative word of God wherein the mind will and counsell of God concerning us is made known E. B. The Word was before any Scripture was given for they were given many years after the creation of the world and some of them at one time some at another but the word was from eternity P. T. Those Doctrins of divine and heavenly truth recorded and delivered to us in the Scriptures were the things of the Spirit of God before committed to writing and remaine the same in this day of the Scriptures and shall be the same when the Scripture viz. the writing shall be no more but this doth not at all contradict what hath been asserted viz. that the thing written is this word of God the mind will and counsell of God given forth to us in writing which we are to own and follow as a Rule to us in all our wayes E. B. I pray all take notice what I say The Scriptures are but writing and therefore cannot be the Word of God the writing is not the Word but the thing written of P. T. You have been sufficiently answered already but you will receive none onely go your Round in a circle We do not affirm that the ABC c. or that words of the Scripture as they consist and are made up of Letters and syllables are the Word of God but that which is exprest by these The Spirit makes use of these words consisting of letters and syllables to speak to us as we are able to bear and to understand and that which is here written viz the mind and meaning of the Spirit exprest in these words in this writing or Scripture is that we call and own the word of God or the things of the Spirit of God Declared and given forth to us in writing The second thing debated was concering Justification which took up neare two hours time wherein I spake little by reason I could fully close with neither party In which discourse words were multiplyed and especially by them called Quakers who would oft-times speak two or three successively giving way to none other I thing I may truely say that I never spent so long time in hearing spirituall things spoken to with lesse profit whatsoever it was to others it was to me a most wearisome and unprofitable Discourse which I shall leave till the last and then give a breife hint of it The third thing laid down formerly by E. B. for Doctrine and now objected against by R. G. was III. That evill motions not consented to were not sin And what plain contradiction is here to own them evill and yet not sin unlesse consented to If evill motions then are they a deviation from the holy righteous and good law of God and consequently unrighteousness and the Apostle tells us All unrighteousness is sin 1 Iohn 5.17 Bellarmine layes it down more subtilly for it is one of his Doctrines when he sayes concupiscence is not sin unless consented to but to grant them evill motions and yet deny them to be sin till consent be given who can be so dull sighted as not to see a plain contradiction in such a position if evil in their own nature how can they be called otherwise then sin even before consented to if neither evil nor sin how can consent make them sin E. B. Thou hast not laid down my words right according to my meaning R. G. They are the very same words I heard you deliver without any alteration W. F. We say that temptations are not sin or transgressions unless consented to Mr. Hall of Colbrook in Middlesex do you speak of temptations from without or such which have their rise from within and out of a mans own heart E. B. I said then and say the same now that temptations unto sin are not sin without consent For the Devill tempted Christ who yet did no sin because he consented not to the temptation R. G. You now speak of temptations which are from without and from the Devil which we grant are not our sin unless consented to but our question is according to what you seemed to own in your discourse whether evil thoughts and motions which are from within and rise out of the heart are not sin unless consented to W. F. Dost thou grant no difference between thoughts and motions R. G. Those motions to sin which arise out of a mans own heart have ever the thoughts going along with them and whether consented to or no Salomon tells us the thought of folly is sin E. B. I say motions to sin are not sin without consent R. G. Such motions which arise out of a mans own heart E. B. Yea Such motions R. G. And take along with you all your own words viz. Evill motions arising out of a mans own heart are not sin unless consented to And what is a contradiction if this be not evil motions and yet not sin our consent makes them more sinful but cannot make them to be sin if they were not such before E. B. They are not my sin although evill in themselves unless I consent R. G. whose sin are they then W. F. They are not his sin unless he consents Ye know the Apostles words It is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me Rom. 7.20 Mr. Hall Who is that Me in whom sin is found was it not Paul and who is that Him in whom sin dwells is it not Edward Burroughs W. F. Ye see according to the Apostle it is not he that doth it but sin that dwelleth in him Mr. Hall In the Apostle was flesh found as well as spirit and these two were contrary maintaining war one against another the Apostle being the person or subject in whom were both found And while E. B. sayes it is not I but sin that dwels in me Who is the Me in whom
sin dwells but Edward Burroughs a man in whome is flesh as well as Spirit and if he be the subject in whom sin dwells whose is the sin but his in whom it dwells E. B. That which I say concerning evill motions is this That although they are evil in themselves yet they are not sin to me till I consent P. T. You grant them to be evill and sin in themselves before consented to E. B. Yea I do P. T. And that these evill motions which are sin in their own nature are sin in you though not yet consented to E. B. I grant this also but I say though they are sin in me yet they are not sin to me P. T. If by sin to you you mean no more then that God will not enter into judgment against his creatures because of these things nor charge ought of this nature upon them as to condemnation we shall easily grant that God will never impute to or charge upon his servants as a severe Judge against them that which is not allowed by them that sin shall not be imputed or charged upon any to their eternall condemnation which is not consented to owned or allowed of by them E. B. This is the same which I say P. T. But this of Gods not charging it upon the creature to condemnation is onely out of his own Mercy and Free Grace and not as if the thing were not sin or veniall in its own nature yea it is acknowledged by your selves to be in in self sin and sin in its own nature deserves death but yet it is improperly said that it is not sin to you for as it is sin in you which you have granted so is it sin to you in two respects first In point of defilement you are defiled by the indwelling of this sin in you and in this regard it is sin to you And secondly As it is a just matter of reproof that which God doth reprove and will in his good time fully destroy in his people but while it abides and dwells in them it defiles and is that which comes under reproof and in these regards sin to them The fourth thing objected against E. B. was IV. That Perfection is attainable in this Life E. B. Thou didest not take my meaning aright R. G. I heard your words and understood by your discourse that you owned perfection a state attainable in this life E. B. I said that the Saints were to presse on toward perfection R. G. It is granted the duty of all to presse forward to what is before not ceasing or giving over till perfection comes but still while in this life there remains imperfection in those who have attained highest and that of full perfection is to be looked for hereafter a State yet to come E. B. The Scripture speaks in many places of some that were perfect while in this life and this we are to presse after P. T. There is a twofold perfection First In point of freedome from sin secondly in point of spiritual attainments The former is such a state of freedome and deliverance from sin that there remains not so much as the indwellings of any sin in us not so much as a thought motion or the least inclination to the least sin The latter is such a state when the soul is so filled with the light of the glory of God shining in upon it that we cannot say we want yea that we are not capable of receiving or desiring more and we deny either of these a state attainable in this life E. B. I do not say that there is such a perfection in this life which admits of no addition P. T. Then possibly the difference may not be so great between you as it was thought to be And indeed this grant with what was yeelded in the former discourse of sin dwelling in us might have ended the difference and brought over both parts to a joyning issue but that he was not faithfull to his own confessions sometimes granting and at another times falling off again and going about to prove the contrary to his own grants which he did most of all in this business E. B. It is not a thing impossible to attain perfection in this life yea there have been some who have attained it P. T. We do not question concerning the power of God whether it be possible to him to whom nothing is impossible to work such a work in us and for us even here and in this life but whether according to Gods ordinary way of dispensations it be a state that ever hath been or shall be actually attained and come up to while we abide in these houses of clay this I suppose is the question between us and is that which we deny E. B. There have been those that were perfect we speak wisedome among those that are perfect 1 Cor. 2.5 and let us therefore as many as be perfect be thus mined Phil. 3.15 Ye see the Apostle plainly owns it concerning some they were perfect and he speaks of men in this life P. T. The word perfect sometimes signifies no more then sincere and upright-hearted thus it is taken in diverse places of Scripture Gen. 6.9 Job 1.8 with severall others 2. It is sometimes taken for grown men who are called perfect as being attained higher then others though not yet come to the state of full perfection in this sence it is used Heb. 5.14 and 1 Cor. 14.20 we find mention of a three-fold estate viz. Children young men and Fathers 1 Iohn 2.13 which relates to a three-fold stature in Christ the one higher then the other there are persons of a lower and a higher form in Christ the young men higher then the Children and the Fathers higher then the young men and yet not come up to the highest for they are growing men still pressing forward to what is before And the same who are called Fathers in this Epistle of Iohn are by the Apostle Paul called perfect in the two texts formerly mentioned that is Fathers in Christ or men of higher attainments and of a greater growth both in knowledge and in grace then babes in Christ these are said to be perfect in comparison of others who are lower and inferiour to them yet were not these come up to the highest for the Apostle who was one of these perfect men acknowledges himself in the same Chap. not to have already attained or to be already perfect but he reached forth and pressed forward to what was before And yet farther we grant perfection in every Saint even in this life Every degree of true and spiritual light every manifestation of divine and heavenly glory in the Saints is perfection in its own nature but the highest hereof is no more then somewhat of perfection dwelling in imperfect creatures not such a degree of perfection which swallowes up all imperfection E. B. I will prove that the Saints may yea do live and not sin which is no more then
those who receive and beleeve in him whereby they stand faultless and without spot before God R. G. Now you clearly own Justification by inherent righteousness and agree fully with your lelf in your former assertion that no man is justified farther then sanctified E. B. Inherent righteousness is no Scripture terme and we desire ye would keep to the form of wholesome words R. G. It is clearly implyed if not expressed in the Scriptures and is not a term of any difficult understanding E. B. Ye are Schollars and reade bookes we are men brought up at the Plow-tayle and understand not scholarly terms P. T. My Friend this was a digression and the whole was little other There are three books which I read in cheif and I think I may speake the same for others The booke of the Scriptures The booke of my own heart and experience thridly The book of Christian observation And I have observed this day on both sides much of selfishness and this mixt with some degree of passion there are few if any can say I am free some discovering it in words others in carriages E. B. Did after this multiply many words concerning our own works being weake and imperfect but the work of Christ perfect and glorious and that we are not Justified by our own works of righteousness but by the work of righteousness which Christ works for us R. G. You hold Justification to be by those workes of rigteousness which Christ works in us directly contrary to what the Apostle affirmes viz. That we are justified by faith not by works E. B. I utterly deny all our own works and righteousness in the matter of Justification R. G. The Apostle denies al works according to the Law whatsoever Rom. 3.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Dost thou deny all Works in point of Justification R. G. We are Justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Thou sayest we are justified by Faith and yet deniest all Works in the matter of Justification is not Faith a Work R. G. Faith Justifies only instrumentally it is not the meritorious but the instrumental cause of our Justification neither doth it Justifie instrumentally as our work or a work wrought in us by the Spirit but with respect to its object Christ And let me here add a word or two not then spoken 1. Justification by Grace by Christ by Faith is all one and the same Justification unto which all these concur as several causes respectively 2. We must distinguish between the merit or proper debt of Works and the bare performance of something called in the Scripture by the name of a work The former the Scripture every where denies in the point of Justification but concerning the latter the performance of something called and owned in the Scripture under the name of a work it doth not deny yea it expresly cals Faith a work John 6.29 and this is required unto Justification 3. Faith hath a hand in this business of Justification no otherwise than instrumentally 4. Faith doth not Justifie instrumentally by vertue of any inherent worth or excellency in it self more than in Love or any other fruit of the Spirit but by vertue of divine Institution as God hath appointed it to serve for this end John 6.40 W. F. I shall prove and according to Scripture that we are justified not by Faith onely but by Works also And it may be if I read the words out of the Scripture ye will have the more patience to hear me And reading certain verses in the latter part of the second Chapter of James he with much carefulness notes that in vers 24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by Faith onely having read to the end he then carries on his Discourse Ye see they are the very words of the Apostle and I hope ye will not deny them we speak no other than according to the form of wholesome words that by works a man is justified and not by faith only but thou sayest by faith onely and to prove this truth the Apostle ye all see brings two eminent examples the one of Abraham the other of Rahab what can be spoken more plainly and proved more strongly that by works a man is justified and not by faith only so was Abraham so was Rahab justified and so are we justified at this day by works and not by faith onely By works not our own works according to the Law but the work of God in us our own works which we our selves have wrought or do work are weak and imperfect but the works of God in us are all perfect and glorious yea meritorious we are not justified by ought our selves have done or can do all our own work of righteousness is worthless and imperfect but the works of God in us are of infinite vertue and worth Mr. Hall Will you own that the works of righteousness which are wrought in us by the Spirit are meritorous W. F. I say it is a perfect and a glorious work which God works in us P. T. And you said meritorious no farther reply was made to this it was it may be no more then a slip of the tongue I judge it no worse R. G. The Apostle in this latter part of the Chap. dealing with some who turned grace into wantonness and boasted of their faith without works endeavours to convince such of their great mistake and proves that true faith is never separated from works of righteousness For though faith alone justifies yet that faith which is alone doth not justifie true faith being ever fruitfull and working by love W. F. The Apostle speaks plain Was not Abraham our father justified by works ver 21. likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works ver 25. P. T. The Apostle speaks of the Justification of our faith before men not the Justification of our persons before God fruitfulness in works of righteousness is a proof of a true faith the Apostles design in this latter part of the Chap. is to shew the difference between a true and a counterfeit a dead a living faith W. F. The Apostle affirms that both Abraham and Rahab the harlot were justified through works R. G. I shall make it appear from Scripture that Ahraham was justified by faith before his going about to offer up his son Isaac which is that eniment work the Apostle here makes mention of W. F. And was Rahab the harlot Justified before her righteous work of receiving the messengers and sending them out another way R. G. I speak of Abraham and in the same way that Abraham was justified was Rahab justified also viz. by faith which was declared by works And concerning Abraham it is said Gen. 15.6 He beleeved in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness Here is Abrahams Justification by faith clearely asserted and owned by the Apostle
in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS