and other cleargie orders they haue baptisme the Eucharist and all other things He proceedeth affirming that the church was in times past knowne by miracles but now they are either ended or els in greater number with false Christians yea he auerreth that a man might know by the liues of men which was the true Church but now Christians were worse then either hereticks or Ethnicks If this worke were written by an Arrian as some say yet there is no cause to condemne this excellent sentence prooued by so weightie reasons The eight reason Scriptures We haue finished by Gods assistance seuen Reasons some of which as the Doctour seemeth to graunt are nothing worth without Scripture and therefore he saith that they teach not any doctrine but such as is deriued out of the holy Bible If you would abide by this confession you would not hold so many vnwritten opinions as you doe For adoration of Images for the halfe communion for the Popes not erring for the lent fast with other points of Poperie what scripture is there It is one of your principles Cens Colon. that traditiones ecclesiae non scriptae credendae ac seruandae sunt vnwritten traditions are to be beleeued and kept Hence I conclude after this manner They which hold opinions by vnwritten traditions deriue not all their opinions out of the scriptures But the Papists hold some opinions by vnwritten traditions Ergo. But good M. Doctour are we driuen to denie certaine parts of Gods holy Bible for the maintaining of our opinions and are the Manichees our predecessours take heede least by auouching vntruths you doe vastare conscientiam make shipwracke of conscience If Luther reiected the epist of S. Iames what is that to vs Caietane will haue it to be minoris authoritatis quam caeteras Bell. lib. 1. cap. 17. 2. booke 23. of lesse authoritie then the other epistles Eusebius saith sciendum est eam esse adulterinam we must know that it is a bastard epistle Euseb 3.22 cap. Now I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which refuse bookes of Scripture frame that bible to their opinions But the Protestants refuse bookes of Scripture Ergo. I denie the assumption which is set downe without any proofe and for the disproofe of the same I will not content my selfe with a few fathers but will produce a cloud of witnesses that the Papists may see their proud bragge of fathers Origen at Eusebius speaketh thus Euseb hist 6. booke 24. Hand ignorandum fieret esse veteris testamenti libros sicut Hebraei tradunt viginti duos qui etiam numerus apudeos est literarum We must vnderstand that there are 22. bookes of the old Testament as the Hebrewes doe teach which also is the number of letters Hence I gather that if the Canonicall bookes answer the hebrew letters then there are but 22. otherwise there should be more then the letters are Melito numbreth the same bookes which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome as witnesseth Eusebius 4. book 25. Cyril of Ierusalem in his 4. catechisme exhorteth the Catechumenes to read 22. bookes but that he reckneth Baruck with Ieremie he reckneth the same which we doe and directly warneth vs vt cum Apocryphis nihil habeamus negotij that we haue nothing to doe with Apocryphal bookes for saith he multò prudentiores te religiosiores fuerint Apostoli primi Episcopi veritatis duces qui nobis eas tradiderunt the Apostles and first Bishops were wiser and more religious then thy selfe they deliuered these scriptures to vs. Leontius in his 2. action of sects agreeth with these authors saying that veteris scripturae libri sunt viginti duo there are 22. bookes of the old testament Innilius reiecteth the Machabees from diuine scripture quoniam apud Hebraeos super hac differentia recipiebantur libri Canonici sicut Hieronymus alijque testantur because with the Iewes the canonicall bookes were receiued with this difference as Ierome and other writers witnesse He reiecteth Iob and some other bookes which are Canonicall by his owne reason namely because they were of that authoritie with the Iewes Amphilochius differeth not from the aboue named writer after that he hath set downe the same number which we doe excepting the booke of Wisdome which yet it may be but put in for verse because he reckneth but three of Salomon after I say he concludeth thus hic verissimus divinitus datarum est scripturarum Canon this is the most true Canon of the diuine scriptures Ruffinus in his exposition vpon the Creede saith that he will describe the Canonicall bookes of the olde testament which he doth after our order in England and acknowledgeth that non Canonicos libros legi voluerunt in ecclesiis sed non proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandaÌ„ they wil haue the books that are not Canonicall to be read in Churches but not to be aleadged to confirme a matter of faith I will not produce the testimonies of Hierome Epiphanius Nazianzen Athanasius and others because they are obvious to euery one neither will I conuince the Doctour by his owne writers as Caietan Hugo and Arias Montanus Iosephus is worthie to be heard who plainly teacheth that duo solum viginti libri fide digni esse creduntur Euseb 3. lib. hist â—0 onely 22. bookes are to be credited By this cloud of witnesses I hope Christian Reader thou maist see the vanitie of Papists who doe nothing but crepare patres patres crie the fathers they are on their side I returne the Argument They which adde bookes to diuine scriptures draw the holy Bible to their fancies But the Papists adde whole bookes to diuine scriptures Ergo Where he saith that the Catholikes follow the bible I will not stand vpon that famous corruption of the Hebrew psalter by an English Papist to iustifie their vulgar latin text but come to one place out of which they would gather purgatorie Where it is said that a certaine sinne shall not be forgiuen neither in this world Math. 11. nor in the world to come we expound it by Marke who saith it shall neuer be forgiuen the Papist saith Matthew must not be expouÌ„ded by Marke because he is shorter but is he not plainer How absurd is it to expound these words â—ell lib. 1. de into cap. 4. he hath neuer forgiuenes to this sense whereas to expound the words of Matthew by Marke hath an excellent construction Thus euery man may see who draw the scriptures to their fancies whether Papists or Protestants The 9. reason Councells Whether the Church of God hath euer bin accustomed when any heresie did spring vp therein to gather a Councell of Bishops Prelates and other learned men I will not stand to dispute If your meaning be M. Doctour that nothing is heresie but that which is condemned by a Councell Lib. 4. cont dâ—â—s epist Pelag. in fine I vtterly renounce your vaine conceit Let Augustine
epist 1. ad Cor. cap. 7. But let Erasmus speake concerning this matter Qui sit how commeth it to passe saith he that the decrees of this Pope fight with the decrees of that Pope That I say nothing of Formosus doe not the decrees of Iohn the 22. and Nicholas fight one against another what should I speake of Innocentius and Coelestinus Pelagius and Gregories decrees one contrarie to another By these examples appeareth the Doctors vanitie The fourth reason conuersion of countries In this fourth reason the framer of it according to his custome beginneth with an vntruth saying that all countries which euer beleeued in Christ were first conuerted to his faith by such as either were precisely sent or at least wise had their authoritie from the Pope The Apostles which receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe not from Peter conuerted many countries That the Apostles receiued authoritie from Christ himselfe the scriptures are plaine in the 20. of Iohn our Sauiour saith As the father hath sent me so send I you what can be more plaine Paul saith of himselfe that he was an Apostle neither of men nor by men but by Iesus Christ How many countries did Paul conuert Concerning this land I spake something before Read Theodoret his 4. booke and 3. chap. where he reckneth England amongst the Christian lands Chrysostome as the same writer testifieth comparavit viros aemulatores Apostolicorum laborum eosque ad Scythias misit prouided men followers of the Apostles labours and sent them to the Scythians The Indians were conuerted by Frumentinus whome Athanasius ordained Bishop as the same author testifieth in his 1. booke and 12. chap. The people of Iberia were conuerted per captivam mulierem by a woman that was a captiue Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 10. by all which cleare and pregnant proofes euery man may see the boldnes of the authors assertion But now I come to reduce his reason into a syllogisme They which take paines in conuersion of countries hold the true religion But the Papists take paines in conuersion of countries ergo I denie the proposition and say to the Papists as our blessed Sauiour spake to the Pharisies Math. 23. woe be to you Papists for ye compasse sea and land to make one of your profession and when he is made ye make him twofold more the child of hell Heretikes haue laboured to conuert or rather to peruert men Paul in the 2. Tim. 3.13 affirmeth that euill men shall waxe worse and worse deceiuing and beeing deceiued The Arrians peruerted many kingdomes Read Sigebert in his chap. de regno Gothorum as witnes Theodoret and others writers As touching the conuersion of the west Indians if things be true that are reported Sadeel con are pos in novo illo orbe amplius decies centena millia barbarorum aut fame aut gladio perierunt in the new found world aboue tenne hundred thousand haue perished either by famine or by sword If our Sauiour Christ had saide Goe kill all nations when he saide Goe teach all nations he had fitted the Papists humour What Gregorie spent in founding Seminaries to restore Catholike religion I know not but this I am sure of that Papists haue taken paines in contriuing of treasons here in England But to returne to the Indies The people there liued not onely without all manner of knowledge of God but also wilde and naked without any ciuill gouernement Iuel 42. pag. beeing in this miserable estate some worshipped the sunne some familiar deuills what maruell then if they were easily ledde into any religion especially carrying such a shew of apparrell and other ceremonies But doe not the Protestants take paines in winning of soules vnto God Calvine not to speake of others read almost two hundred lectures euery yeare and preached aboue two hundred sermons Who conuerted England Scotland Ireland and other countries from Antichrist to Christ from the Masse to the Messias from Images to the seruice of the liuing God did not poore Luther Zwinglius Oecolampadius and other Protestants the ministers of England labour in their owne charges preaching in season and out of season God is as well glorified in the conuersion of a soule here as in other countries But doe the Papists now labour in conuerting of soules in times past it was not so hodie proh dolor saith Aeneas Sylvius Lib. 1. de geâ—â— con Basil now alas he is a rare Prelate which doth not preferre temporall things before spirituall things Againe Nos ignavia nostra nimia vitae cupiditate Christianam religionem ex toto orbe in angulum redegimus we by our lasinesse and great desire of life haue drawne religion out of the world into a corner of the same Clemangis in his booke which he wrote of the corrupt state of the Church speaketh thus Multò aequanimiùs ferunt decem millium animarum iacturam quà m decem solidorum Pontifices suas traditiones divinis longè mandatis anteponunt they had rather loose ten thousand soules then tenne shillings the Popes preferre their traditions farre before Gods commandements Thus then I returne the argument They which esteeme money more then the soules of men are not the true Church But the Papists esteeme money more then the soules of men Ergo. Whether M. Calvin sent ministers or no into new found lands I know not neither am I priuie to the successe they had Ezekiel was sent to the Iewes that they might know that there had beene a Prophet amongst them the fault is not in the doctrine but in the men who resist the same I will not dispute whether a wicked man may be a meanes to winne soules as a good master bestoweth a good almes by the ministerie of an euill seruant so also the mercifull Lord may call one to repentance by the meanes of another though he be an vnpenitent person The Doctors rayling vpon Luther Calvin and Peter Martyr calling his wife fustilugges fitteth the spirit of a Papist If Peter Martyrs lawfull wife deserueth the name of fustilugges what name doe the popish priests concubines deserue In that our Ministers trauell not without their wiues 1. Cor. â— I answer with Paul Haue we not power to lead about a sister a wife Beza his epistles and pistols are but words to fill vp pages and to wast paper But haue not the Protestants for-gone any worldly wealth to spread abroad religion why are they then exiles and haue witnessed their religion with their blood In a word Poperie gaineth more by wealth and armes then by conscience and if it gaineth any soundly it is by some reliques of truth which remaineth with them The fifth reason largenes of dominion through multitude of beleeuers That the Church which the Messias was to plant must be dispersed throughout all nations and kingdomes as the holy Prophets most plainly foreshewed we acknowledge neither needed the Doctor to haue produced so many testimonies I may well say of the Doctor as did
things but in scoffing manner if you doe seriously hold them prooue them seriously and not with ridiculous authorities The 11. reason Triall of truth That it appertaineth to the Church to trie and to discerne Spirits as also to determine and to decide doubts we confesse M. D. Trie all things saith Paul 1 Thess 5. 1. Ioh. 4. and S. Iohn commandeth vs to prooue the Spirits But the question is whether you are the Church or no Quid ergo facturi sumus what shall we doe I answer with Augustine propounding this question cap. 2. de vnitat that we must seeke the Church of Christ in his word qui veritas est optimè novit corpus suum who is truth best knoweth his bodie Where you say that we cannot otherwise but receiue the scriptures vpon the catholike Romane churches credit and also three Creedes and some articles of beleefe as the holy Ghost to proceede from the Father and the Sonne and many tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments I will answer these points seuerally And first I desire to know what reason you haue to make a particular church as the Romane church Catholike The Romane church if it were a true church is but a part of the catholike church It is Catholike saith Augustine because it is per totum through the whole world de vnit cap. 5. Cyril in his 18. chap. among many reasons of the name giueth this Quia per vniversum sit orbem terrarum diffusa because it is diffused thorough the whole world Is it all one to say I beleeue the Catholike Church and to say I beleeue the Romane church To leaue this matter and to come to your speech that it is not possible to know the Bible which is vsed amongst Christians to be the true word of God indeede but vpon the Romane churches credit First such idle questions the olde heretikes the Manichees demanded of S. Augustine to whome S. Augustine answered Lib. 32. cap 21. cont Faust Man Si quaeratis à nobis vnde nos sciamus Apostolorum esse istas literas breuiter vobis respondemus inde nos scire vnde vos scitis illas literas esse Manichaei If you demand of vs how we know that these be the Apostles writings we shape you this short answer as you know that your writings are of the heretike Manichee Secondly I would know how you can prooue any church to be the church but by the Scriptures if you cannot prooue the church but by the Scriptures then the Authoritie of the church dependeth vpon them and not è contra Thirdly we receiue not the Scriptures vpon the Romane churches credit for then we should haue receiued also the bookes which are Apocrypha as well as the true Canon of the bible for the Romane church doth receiue them Fourthly we receiue the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselues Many men by the heauenly maiestie of the Scriptures are mooued to receiue them before they know which is the true church Gonarus con Cost Iustin Martyr saith that Christs words haue in thâ—â— feare to perswade in dialogo cum Try Mantuan de pat l. 3. c. 2. saith thus Firmiter scripturas ideo credimus quòd diuinam inspirationem intra accipimus we steadfastly beleeue the scriptures because we haue receiued an inward inspiration from God He that will despise the Scriptures will despise the Church He that will not beleeue there is a God because the Scriptures teach it will not beleeue it because the Church teacheth the same The Scriptures were credited before the Romane church was ens or in rerum natura The Apostles beleeued the Gospel of our Sauiour Christ before he wrought any miracle because it was testified by the scriptures Ioh. 1.46 Adam and others beleeued without the church Our Sauiour Christ preached Repent and beleeue the Gospel which some did without the Church Eusebius in his third booke and 21. chap. writeth that the Gospels of Thomas and others were reiected because that phraseos character à consuetudine Apostolica variat ipsa sententia propositum eorum quae in illis adferuntur plurimum à veritate rectae doctrinae discrepant the style doth varie from the Apostolicall manner and the matter and the intent of those things which are alleadged in them doe much differ from the truth of right doctrine The consent of Scriptures the miracles and prophesies with many other arguments draw a man to credit the same yea the deadly hatred which the world beareth vnto them perswadeth not a little Sacris Scripturis saith Bellarmine nihil est notius Lib. 1. cap. 2. de vâ—â— Dâ—i nihil certius there is nothing more knowne and certaine then the Scriptures Read Bellarmine your selfe M. Doctor that he may satisfie you in this point But if we beleeue the Scriptures by the Church doth not the church teach vs to beleeue by the scriptures how can the church rightly perswade vs to beleeue but by preaching and producing of scriptures Ergo the scriptures are of much more force then the bare name of a church For propter quod vnumquodque tale est illud magis tale if the church induceth vs to beleeue then the scriptures doe much more because the church doth it by the scriptures The church is an excellent meanes ordained of God to bring men to beleefe neither doe we contemne the authoritie thereof The Samaritans beleeued by the testimonie of a woman Ioâ— 4. but afterward they beleeued because of Christ himselfe so the Church may bring one to beleeue but afterward to beleeue for the word it selfe The testimonie of Augustine is fraudulently alleadged by you his word is commoveret for he saith As there were many things which held him in the faith so if he were an infidel he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authoritie of the church with other things did mooue him ergo not onely the church and he speaketh if he were an infidell as the wordes going before doe plainly manifest Si invenies aliquem if thou shouldest finde any which yet doth not beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou doe saying to thee I doe not beleeue then immediatly followeth your sentence I would not beleeue vnlesse c. Nicholaus Clenangis is worthie to be heard concerning this testimonie of Augustine Disp super Gâ—â— con Mirum sane prima specie satis videtur at the first fight it is maruell that he should preferre the authoritie of the church being a stranger in the earth before the authoritie of the Gospel seeing the Church may be deceiued in many things and the Gospel cannot Afterward he giueth the reason of Augustines speach because the Manichees did reiect Scriptures at their pleasures To stand yet somewhat longer in this testimonie Con. lib. 5 c. 1â— Augustine was mooued to beleeue by Ambrose is Ambrose his authoritie therefore equall to the scriptures God forbid whosoeuer listeth to read the 5. chap of the 6.
first that Augustine speaketh of ancient miracles for he saith tenet me authoritas miraculis inchoata authoritie begunne by miracles doth hold me in Secondly I answer that Augustine doth preferre truth before miracles in the same place he confesseth that veritas est illis omnibus praeponenda truth is to be preferred before all those things Now I returne the argument They which haue true miracles are the true Church But the Protestants haue true miracles Ergo. For the proofe of the assumption we produce the Apostles miracles by which that doctrine which we maintaine was confirmed many hundred yeares agoe If our doctrine be not conteined in the scriptures let it be disprooued by the same But because the Doctour saith out of Augustine that he is bound in the Church by the bond of miracles I would it might please him a little to listen vnto S. Augustine writing thus de Vni eccle cap. 16. Non dicat ideò verum esse quia illa illa mirabilia fecit Donatus vel Pontius c. Let no man say it is true because Donatus or Pontius hath done these or these miracles or because men at the memorie of the dead doe pray and are heard or because these or these things doe happen there or because this our brother or that our sister saw such a vision waking or dreamed such or such a vision sleeping In in the same cap. Augustine speaketh thus quaecunque talia such things whatsoeuer are to be approoued because they are done in the Catholike Church yet it is not made knowne by them Belsee his reports of Luther and Calvin we reiect and touching our Gospel it is not altogether without miracles in these daies your Idols are fallen quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit The world beleeuing whosoeuer seeketh for wonders that he might beleeue is himselfe a wonder Take heede therefore M. Doctour least you make your selfe a miracle that will not beleeue without miracles The 7. reason visions and the gift of prophesie Cytharaedus ridiculus chorda qui semper oberrat eadem This Doctour harpeth alwaies vpon one string he is not contented with Miracles but now he commeth to Visions and confidently affirmeth that visions and the gift of prophesie were neuer found to be but in the true Church yet Aquinas in his 2. 2. 172. quest art 6. teacheth that prophetae daemonum aliquando verum praedicant the deuills prophets sometimes foretell the truth yea he auoucheth that propheta daemonum non semper loquuntur ex revelatione daemonum sed interdum ex inspiratione divina that the deuills prophets did not alwaies speake by reuelation from the deuill but sometime by inspiration from God and this he prooueth by Balaam his example vnto whome the Lord spake as it is in the 22. of Numb The Sybilles as the Doctour himselfe confesseth prophesied for the confirmation of right religion yet were they Ethnicks and liued amongst them Who dare say that the Church were with the heathen because of the Sybilles But I draw this argument into a syllogisme They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the Church But the Papists haue visions and the gift of prophesie Ergo. Aquinas as you haue heard M. Doctour denieth your proposition and whereas you would prooue the same because S. Paul S. Peter and S. Iohn stand vpon Reuelations behold now your double follie First you thus conclude the Church had visions therefore it onely hath visions which is as good as if a man should conclude the Church teacheth the Trinitie ergo no heretikes teach the same Secondly the Church had visions therefore it shall alwaies haue visions who will graunt you this consequence S. Augustine saith 3. booke de bap cap. 10. that miracles were ad ecclesiae primordia dilatanda to enlarge the beginnings of the Church so were visions to last for a time I returne the argument They which haue visions and the gift of prophesie are the true Church But the Protestants haue visions Ergo they are the true Church The Assumption is prooued by S. Pauls Saint Peters and Saint Iohns visions our doctrine is the same with theirs Saint Iohn heard a voice from heauen saying Blessed are the dead for they rest from their labours so say we therfore there is no purgatorie paines for them after this life The Scriptures teach that the sufferings of Christ are a perfect and full satisfaction for our sinnes so say we and therefore there remaineth not any part of Gods iustice to be satisfied by vs. But let vs see what visions the Papists haue and what a dangerous thing it is to stand vpon visions Bellarmine in his 2. booke of purgatorie and 7. chap. alleadgeth a vision out of Beda to prooue besides hell purgatorie and heauen a fourth place namely pratum florentissimum dilucidissimum as it were a most goodly meadow And in the same booke and 4. chap. he sheweth that Dyonisius the Carthusian and Michael Baius by visions would prooue that the soules in purgatorie were not certen of their saluation which opinion he confuteth Thus you see out of your owne writers what credit is to be giuen to visions by such counterfaiting meanes we may prooue any thing I say therefore with Augustine Removeantur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum vel portenta fallacium spirituum Away with these fained things of lying men or monsters of lying spirits And now M. Doctour to argue vpon your owne graunts both of miracles and visions You say that the heathen had prophesies to confirme right religion graunt you then that you haue some few which works both true miracles and see true visions it is not to confirme your erroneous doctrine but to confirme that truth of doctrine which is held in your Church for all them you are a corrupt Church yet there are some reliques of true doctrine remaining and so by sequele of your owne speech these things may come to passe to confirme that true doctrine which is amōgst you Heretikes haue held some true opinions that there heresies might be the better bolstered out You hold the Trinitie and some other points of religion it may be then that if there be any miracles or visions amongst you it is to confirme the reliques of that truth which remaineth with you Thus I haue argued vpon your owne wordes and graunt But for my part I hold with Chrysostome 49. hom in op◠imper that nunc nulla probatio esse potest vorae ecclesiae there can be now no proofe of the true Church but onely by the Scriptures He giueth a reason of his speach quia saith he qua propria sunt in veritate ca hareses habent in schismate habent ecclesias habent scripturas diuinas habent Episcopos caeterosque ordines clericorum habent baptismum habent Eucharistiam caeteraque omnia because those things which are peculiar to truth heresies haue in their schisme they haue Churches they haue Scriptures they haue Bishoppes
speake Aut verò congregatione synodi opus erat vt aperta pernicies damnaretur quasi nulla haeresis aliquando nisi Synodi congregatione damnata sit cum potius rarissimae inveniantur propter quas damnandas necessitas talis extiterit multoque sint atque incomparabiliter plures quae vbi extiterunt illic improbari damnarique meruerunt atque indè per caeteras terras devitandae innotescere potuerunt Was it necessarie a Councell should be gathered to condemne open mischiefes as if no heresie had beene condemned without a Councell whereas very few are found for the condemning of which there hath bin such necessitie and there are without comparison moe which deserued to be condemned where they did spring vp that being so condeÌ„ned they might be made known vnto other countries Out of this testimonie I gather these two things first that it may be an heresie though not condemned by a Councell secondly I gather that in Augustines time there were few heresies for the condemning of which Councells were gathered together To proceede You say whosoeuer were condemned by Councells confirmed by the See Apostolicall were euer deemed and indeede were heretikes What say you to Cyprian De vnico lap cap. 14. whom as Augustine reporteth Stephanus Bishop of Rome censuit excommunicandum esse deemed to be excommunicated 8. book 4 chap. Bellar. lib. 2. de con cap. 5. Eusebius saith that scripsit vniuersis conterminis gentibus he wrote to all countries that were neare that he would not communicate with them because they did rebaptize heretikes Was Cyprian either an heretike or of that minde that whatsoeuer the Pope did condemne was heresie why did he not then yeild to Stephanus who was Pope For I thinke you meane by the See Apostolike the Pope otherwise you condemne Eugenius who saide as Aeneas Sylvius reporteth that tantum aebest vt generalibus Concilijs debeat obedire vt se dicat tunc maximè mereri cum concilij decreta contemnit It is so farre from him that he should obey generall Councells that he doth then best deserue when he doth contemne the decrees of the same But I reduce your Argument into a syllogisme They which are condemned by the Councell of Trent are heretikes But the Protestants are condeÌ„ned by the Councell of Trent Ergo they are heretikes I denie the proposition for it is against all reason that they which are parties that are partiall that are accused should be the onely iudges Augustine saith Solis Canonicis scriptis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum I ought to consent onely to the Canonicall scriptures without any refusall De nâ—t grat â— Nicolaus de Clemangijs writeth that Ecclesia quandoque contraria determinat the Church doth sometimes determine contraries in Fas vâ—ta ex Againe Trita regula est ecclesia militans fallit fallitur it is an old rule the Church militant doth deceiue and is deceiued Gregorie his speach who saith that he doth reuerence the foure first Councells as the foure Gospels de alijs suspitionem in animis hominum relinquit leaueth a suspition in the minds of men of other Councels Saith the same man the councell of Neocaesaria condemned second marriages this is not confessed by Bellarmine in his tractate of councells least he should graunt that Councells may erre But in his first booke of marriage and 17. chap. he writeth that Concilium tractat de secundis nuptijs qua contrabuntur mortua priore vxore the Councell doth entreat of second marriages which are made the former wife beeing dead Hence I thus conclude That Councell which condemneth second marriages erreth but this Councell condemneth second marriages ergo And touching your Tridentine conuenticle why doe not your men stand to the decrees of the same Arias Montanus reiecteth the bookes from the bodie of the holy bible which we doe Catharin teacheth that a man may be certen of grace yet these opinions are condemned in your chapter of Trent if we beleeue Bellarmine Againe if your chapter of Trent teacheth rightly of originall sinne why doth the same Catharin teach that it is nothing els but Adams actuall transgression and disobedience Noli esse tam iniustus be not so vnequall M. Doctour to binde vs with your councell of Trent when your owne men dissent from the same Where you say that we shall vtterly vanish away because we haue no head to gather a generall Councell I acknowledge you to be a false and no true prophet We see the fall of Babylon daily more and more and the madnesse of them that seeke to vphold her daily more and more manifest You say also that we receiue fixe Councells â—hem Act. 15. yet your fellows maruell that we attribute much to the foure first and nothing to the rest it were good for you to agree amongst your selues before you charge vs with errour Lastly the libertie of our Gospel is such as Gods word doth teach 1â— epist ego saith Augustine solis eis scripturarum libris I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour onely to the canonicall Scriptures that no author of them can erre The 10. reason Fathers The Doctour in the beginning of this chap. proijcit ampullos casteth out loftie and arrogant words after this manner The Catholike Romane religion is most plainly taught by all the ancient Fathers of the first second third fourth fift and sixt hundred yeares and hath beene euer without controuersie taught of the fathers of euery age since vntill this day This proud bragge I haue disprooued before by many testimonies and now by Gods helpe I will make it manifest to boyes Theophilus Alexandrinus is plaine against traditions in his 2. paschal sermon he writeth thus Daemoniaci est spiritus instinctus aeliquid extra scripturarum authoritatem putare divinum it is the instinct of a deuillish spirit to thinke any thing diuine without authoritie of scriptures what spirits then haue Papists but deuillish spirits who fight for their trash of traditions Caesarius is as plaine for reading of the Scriptures in his 20. homilie he taketh away the excuse commonly vsed for not reading the same Nemo dicat non mihi vacat legere Let no man say I am not at leisure to read the Scriptures Inanis invtilis est excusatio ista this excuse is vaine and vnprofitable Marke the Eremite hath written a booke against those which thinke to be iustified by works in which booke this notable sentence is extant Regnum coeloruÌ„ non est merces operuÌ„ sed gratia domini fidelibus servis praeparata the kingdome of heauen is not the wages of workes but the grace of God prepared for faithfull seruants In his booke de baptisme of baptisme he teacheth the same Mandata ipsa non tellunt peccatum hoc enim per solam crucem factum est sed donata nobis libertatis limites custodiunt The commandements take not away finne for that is done onely by the
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
then vpon that Popes authoritie Pope Sixtus saith â—ead M. Iames. before the Vatican edition their vulgar latin translation was schismatis occasio the occasion of heresie Now Pope Clements edition is approoued farre differing from Sixtus edition What certaintie then haue Papists who will take the scriptures now vpon this now vpon that Popes warrant But I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which haue no certaine triall of truth are not the Church But the Protestants haue no certaine triall Ergo. I denie the assumption for we haue the scriptures which are the infallible rule of truth Our Sauiour Christ vanquished the deuill by the scriptures The Bereans tried the Apostles doctrine by the scriptures Lib. 2. denupt cap. â—â— and may not we so doe S. Augustine writeth thus Ista controuersia iudicem riquirit this controuersie requireth a iudge who shall be iudge he answereth Christ Iudicet Christus let Christ be iudge He doth name neither Pope nor Romish church For as he saith in another place Scriptura est eminentissima authoritatis 〈◊〉 Civit. l. 11. c. 3. the scriptures are of a most soueraigne and peerelesse authoritie Lib. 5. Optatus disputing whether the baptized are to be rebaptized is worthie to be heard Quarendi sunt saith he aliqui huius controuersiae indices si Christiani de viraque parte dari non possunt quia stuaijs veritas impeditur de foris quarendus est index si l'agaâ—â—â— non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudans inimiens est Christiani baptismatis ergo in terris haec de re nullum poterit reperiri iudicium de coelo quaerendus sed vt quid puâ—samus ad coelum cum habemus hîc in Euangelio testamentum inquam quia hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelestibus comparari Some iudges for this controuersie are to be fought for if Christians they cannot be had on both sides because by part-taking the truth is hindred we must seek abroad for a iudge if he be a Pagan he knoweth not Christian secrets if a Iewe he is an enemie to Christian baptisme in earth there can be found no iudgement a iudge from heauen must be required But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospel a testament because in this place earthly things may be fitly coÌ„pared to heauenly things I maruell M. Doctor that your vanting vpon all the Fathers light not vpon this Father who is as you call them a plaine Calvinist But I returne your argument They which haue no certaine triall of the truth are not the Church But the Papist haue no certaine triall of the truth Ergo. The assumption is manifest because they relie vpon Popes that may erre Marellinus sacrificed to idols Liberius was an Arrian And more then this some Iudas might creepe into the office as your Rhemists confesse Some Popes they will not appeale to Councells as it it manifest by the Councell of Basil And M. Doctor in a word what certaintie haue you or can you haue if there happen to be a schisme amongst the Popes The 22. schisme continued 40. yeares as it is recorded in Fascic Temp. and vntill Martin the 5. it was not manifest who was Pope You blaspheme the Scriptures Turrian calleth them a Delphian sword made for want The Censure of Colen saith that it is veluti nasus caereus a nose of waxe O Antichristian Prelates the Lord rebuke you for these your blasphemies against his holy Bible What triall of truth you haue I hope I haue made plaine to your owne conscience M. Doctor In the ende of this chapter you call vs boat-swanes admitting no iudge and say we haue no meanes to rest vntill we end in Atheisme That this name of boat-swanes may returne vpon your head I pray you consider how M. Harding pleadeth for your Pope to be head of the church because the Prophet Hose prophesieth that the children of Israel and Iudah shall haue one head Out vpon you Antichristian heretikes that euer you should thus abuse the holy Bible touching Atheisme wheÌ„ce did Machiauell spring Caius constantly auoucheth Italie to be the very fouÌ„taine of Atheists I conclude this reason with the saying of Picus Mirandula Magna profecto insania est Euangelio non credere cuius veritatem sanguis martyrum clamat Apostolicae resonant voces prodigia probant ratio confirmat mundus testatur elemeÌ„ta loquuÌ„tur Daemones confitentur sed longe maior insania si de Euangelij veritate non dubitas viuere tamen quasi de eius falsitate non dubitares It is exceeding madnesse not to credit the Gospel the truth whereof the blood of Martyrs doth crie the Apostolicall words doe sound miracles do prooue reason doth confirme the world doeth witnesse the elements doe vtter the deuils confesse but it is farre greater folly if thou doubtest not of the trueth of the Gospell so to liue as if thou madest no question but it were false The twelfth reason the vse and custome of the Church De faece hauris you drawe of your dregges M. Doctor when you will beate vs downe with the bare club of custome Custome in ciuill affaires may preuaile much but in diuinity it is not worth a rush except it be ioyned with trueth Prudentius answereth Symmachus making this defence Suus cuique mos suus cuique ritus est Euery one hath his manner and rite Quid mihi tu ritus solitos Romane senator obiectas cum scita patrum populique frequenter in tabulis placiti sententia flexa nouarit Nunc etiam quoties solitis decedere prodest praeteritosque habitus cultu damnare recenti Why doest thou obiect vnto me Custome when a diuers opinion hath changed the decrees of Father and people now also how often doeth it auaile to depart from custome and by a newe manner to condemne the olde habits Morosa moris retentio res est aequè turbulenta ac nouitas A wayward retaining of a Custome is as turbulent a thing as noueltie Balsamon vpon Photius saith that aequitate exigente mutamus consuctudinem Tom. 6. when equitie requireth it we change custome And againe Vidi non scriptam consuetudinem fuisse infirmatam I haue seene an vnwritten custome to haue beene infringed But saith the Doctor the vse and custome of the church hath beene alwaies an infallible rule to direct and order things by First the Doctor beggeth that which is a question taking the Romish Church to be the true Church We denie it prooue it before you plead custome Secondly the Church in times past did giue the Eucharist vnto Infants was this an infallible rule M. Doctor to giue the Sacrament of the bodie and blood of Christ vnto children if you denie that the Church did so you may be confounded with infinite testimonies of authors Augustine in his first booke de peccato mort cap. 20. is plaine vpon which place Erasmus hath made this marginall note Lib. 1. cap. 2. cont Iulian. Nunc
established Church bowe much more might it be suffered when as Ecclesia sit constituenda the church is to be constituted Thus hauing defended the calling of protestants let vs see what notes of hereticks and false prophets the scriptures giue Paul in the first of Tim. and 4. chap. giueth these notes of false Prophets to forbidde marriages and to command abstinence from meates Where are these to be found at this day in papists or protestants in protestāts no man will affirme The Manichees did not simply forbid marriage neither condemned they simply meats For Auditores qui appellantur apud Manichaeos carnibus vescuntur si voluerint vxores habent Their hearers did eate flesh and if they would had wiues It remaineth then that these notes be found in Papists Another note of false prophets is to draw men to the seruice of idols Deut. 13.2 Doth this agree any way to Protestants who abandō all monuments of Idolatrie to the Papists it agreeth because they teach that the very wood of the Crosse is to be worshipped with diuine honour Polidor Virgil. lib. 6. cap. 13. speaking of worshipping Saints images saith Haec pars pietatis parum differt ab impietate this pietie differeth little from impietie The third note of false teachers is to despise Dominion as Iude speaketh vers 8. doth not the Pope so who will not be subiect to the Emperour no not to a generall Councell as Witnesseth Eugenius who would not yeeld to the Councel of Basil Yea the papists suborne traytours to murder their lawfull Prince as their own writings prooue The booke I haue named before The fourth note of false Apostles is to teach iustification by the works of the lawe as it is manifest by the Epistle of Paul to the Galat. Doe we so or the papists neither can the papists answer that Paul excludeth the workes of nature onely and not of grace For Paul excludeth not onely the workes of nature but the workes of the ceremoniall and morall lawe as it is plaine For who can imagine that the Galathians beeing instructed in Christ would wholly exclude him from iustification and seeke for iustification either by the works of nature or by the ceremoniall law without Christ Fiftly the false Prophets speake visions of their own hearts Ierem. 23.16 so doe the papists deceiue people with lying visions doctrines of men as I haue proued They teach that the Pope cannot erre that he is aboue Councels where hath the Lord euer taught these things in his word Not to stād vpon any more notes of false Apostles Prophets I desire thee Christian Reader to iudge euen thine owne selfe whether the scripture hath not set downe these notes and whether they can any way agree to the Protestants or no. The 19. reason Lyars slaunderers and reuilers The Protestants are here charged either to haue no conscience at all or els if they haue any it is seared with an hotte iron because they are lyars slaunderers and reuilers Yea they make lying their helpe These M. Doctor are grieuous accusations but before I haue done with you I will turne them vpon your owne head it shall be manifest who are lyars and who haue no conscience whether Papists or Protestants I will first answer your lies which you heape vpon the Protestants The first lie is that Luther saith before his comming the Gospel lay in the dust and was hidden vnder the bench M. Doctor satin sanus es Are you sound to charge all Protestants with Luthers sayings shall one mans speech be the speech of all men apage istas nugas out vpon these follies Luther had this meaning that the Gospel lay in the dust from the time that Antichrist did sit in the temple of God vntil his time and yet it did not so lie in the dust but that many in those times renounced the Pope his speech is comparatiue in regard of the cleere knowledge that now is it lay in the dust Behold now what a lyar Luther is The second lie is this Protestants charge the Papists with Idolatrie yea they inculcate and dull the cares of the people with often telling them of the Idolatrie of their elders And why should we not doe so for proofe of this I will deale syllogistically They which offer sacrifices vnto Images are Idolaters But the papists offer sacrifices vnto Images ergo The proposition is playne because Sacrifice is due onely to God Exod. 22.20 The assumption is testified by Bellarmine lib. 1 de sanct Be◠cap. 13. We offer saith he sweete odours in the Church vnto Images Secondly they which put their hope in wood are Idolaters But the Papists put their hope in wood ergo The assumption is prooued by Aquinas 3. par quaest 15. art who saith that the Church praied to the very wood of the crosse thus O Crosse our only hope create iustice in the Godly giue pardon to the guiltie Thirdly they which dedicate Churches vnto Saints are Idolaters But Papists dedicate Churches to Saints ergo The proposition is plaine out of Augustine lib 1. Read Lud. Vi◠i◠9. lib. de ciuit cap. vlt. cont Maxim Arrian Episc cap. 11. where he prooueth that the holy Ghost is God becaue he hath a temple the assumption is plaine by Erasmus annotations who hath noted in the margent Hoc nunc fit quibuslibet Diuis This is now done to some Saints The Doctor himselfe in his 20. chapter confesseth that parish churches are dedicated vnto Saints When you haue answered these syllogismes M. Doctor you shall haue more proofes of your Idolatrie Bellarmine ingeniously confesseth that pictures of God are not deliuered to the people without daunger except they be instructed of their prelates but the world knoweth that in diuers places of Popery like Priest like People to haue bin and Priests haue bin very Idols themselues The third lie is that some protestants say that the Catholikes hould that Christ satisfied onely for originall sinnes and that hee ordained the Masse for other sinnes which to be a manifest lie all the bookes written of this matter by Catholike diuines doe plainly testifie M. Doctor for triall of this lie these are Canus his words concerning Catharine Amborsij Chatharini deliratio patet peccata ante Baptismum adonissa per crucis sacrificium remitti 433. post baptismum vero per sacrificium altaris The dotage of Ambrose Catharine is manifest that sinnes before baptisme are remitted by the sacrifice of the crosse but sinnes after baptisme by the sacrifice of the alter Marke M. Doctor that your own man Canus chargeth Catharine with dotage in that he held that sinnes onely committed before baptisme were remitted by the sacrifice of the crosse thus the lie is turned vpon your selfe Remember also that your schoolemen teach that Christ came principally to take away originall sin and so doth Bellarmine also lib. 4. de Rom. pont cap. 10. in fine The fourth lie is the protestants assime that the Catholikes
presence because the wordes were so plaine and why hath the text bin so tossed that out of it alone there hath bin wronge foure score different opinions I doubt you can hardly shewe so many opinions M. Doctor but graunt it yet a plaine text may not bee vnderstood of euery one and if the text be so plaine as you would haue it howe commeth it to passe that there are so many different opinions also among your selues for you know not howe to expound the word this as I haue prooued in an other worke Scotus confesseth that before the Lateran councell transubstantiation was no matter of faith ergo the wordes this is my body prooue it not Lactantius crieth out after this manner O quam difficilis est ignorantibus veritas quam facilis scientibus O how hard is truth to the ignorante but how easie to the skilfull truth then may be easie in it selfe though difficult to some men Vpon this vaine question you haue made a foolish inference that we haue noe witnesses at all of our newe inuented doctrine but euery one his priuat fancy or conceit whereas the catholike Roman religion hath all things in the world witnesses of it This is a monstrous fable are you able to prooue that all which are in heauen were the children of your church and all that are in hell were enemies vnto it to examine particulars Ignatius you say was of your religion because in Ecclesiasticall affaires he would not haue the king equall to the Bishop and because he wrotte Ecclesiasticall traditions To the first I answer that the true Ignatius would not correct Salomons speech Prou. 24. My sonne saith Salomon honour God and the king but I say honour God and the Bishop as high Priest the true Ignatius was a man of greater religion then that he would haue corrected the scripture but any thing is good inough to patch vp poperie To the second place I answer that it beeing duely considered ouerthroweth the Papists opinion For Ignatius thought it necessarie that the Traditions of the Apostles that is their doctrine should be written for feare of corruption what then is become of vnwritten traditions For that this is the true meaning of Eusebius Grynaeus sheweth Eus l. 5. c. 23. Next vnto Ignatius is Irenaeus placed who is so farre from agnizing the Papall authoritie that he did Acriter Victorem reprehendere sharpely reprooue Victor the Romane Bishop because he excommunicated the Churches of Asia for keeping the feast of Easter in a diuers manner from Rome Would Irenaeus haue done this if the Popes authoritie had beene vniuersall As foâ— Victor if this be your argument he excommunicated the Churches of Asia ergo he was a papist you make a ridiculous reason The next argument of Policarpus his going to Rome is of the same moment for who knoweth not that many mens aduise is vsed who yet haue no authoritie ouer others That Saint Cyprian Syxtus Laurence with infinite others doe witnesse the Romane religion I denie Saint Cyprian is so farre from witnessing all points of poperie that as I haue prooued he is reiected of Papists From men the Doctor commeth to women affirming thousands to haue defended their virginitie against deuils and men What then were they Papists therefore To come to speciallities Helen you say founde out the Crosse Although that historie may be doubted of yet Helen was no Papist for shee did not worshippe the crosse because that was an heathenish errour if shee had beene a Papist shee would haue adored the crosse But the Mother of Augustine Saint Monica was a papist who after death requested that shee might haue Masse said for her here if you meane popish Masse M. Doctor you abuse your selfe most shamefully for shee desired onely a memorie of her at the Communion So had the Prophets and Apostles which were not in your fained Purgatorie By these fewe examples you haue prooued Protestancie then poperie as for the rest which you name Saint Paul the Eremit and others when you prooue them Papists we will beleeue it To your question demanding whether there were any Saints in heaueÌ„ before this our age which were not papists I answer that there were therfore you speake impiously to say that heauen was emptie vntil Luther shooke off his hood or if there were any they were Papists who reuealed these things vnto you M. Doctor Take heede of the pride of Lucifer who would ascend into heauen to know secrets they belong not vnto you The Apostles and Martyrs with thousands I doubt not were in heauen which I am sure were no Papists witnesâ—e their writings From heauen the Doctor commeth to hell I feare me without repentance a fit place for him This iolly fellowe knoweth not onely matters in heauen but also what is done in hell as it seemeth The heathen persecutors are in hell for persecuting the Catholike Church I doubt not but this Catholike Church is not the same with the Romish Church at this day there is ample difference betwixt these And that Constantine gaue great peace to the Church Theod. lib. 1. c. 7. it is true also but he was no Papist for he saith that the holy Scriptures teach vs plainely all things which concerne diuine matters Lastly that all Bishops vnder the cope of heauen were members of this Romish Church is a notorious vntrueth The Doctor to fill vp his reason numbreth many but prooueth not that which he saith The rest of the chapter is but a vaine flourish of words in which I take no delight To drawe his reason into a syllogisme is needlesse because in deede it hath neither head nor foote Amongest many vanities in the ende of the chapter the Doctor saith that he is a Papist because the Romish religion is the most beneficiall of all the rest Christian Reader I feare me that this indeed is the true cause why many are papists namely their commodities But this is sufficient to driue men from poperie that in regard of preferment by this Doctors confession he is a Papist M. Doctor I haue taken away your euidence for poperie for baptisme bindeth no man to falshood Wherefore I beseech you by your saluation choose rather with Moses to suffer affliction then to be the Popes white sonne which as it seemeth by your owne confession you doe because the Romish Religion is most gainefull Out vpon gaine against conscience the Lord open your eies to see the trueth FINIS An admonition to the Reader I desire thee Christian Reader if there be any faults of the Printer to impute them to him not to the author of this booke for he could not be present at the Presse
we denie praier for the dead I answer if Arrius tooke away thankesgiuing for the dead we hold not as he did but if he denied praier for those that were in fained Purgatorie we hold no such place Philastrius chargeth him with condemning of marriage and Augustine with Arrianisme these opinions we detest The fift heresie is that we make no difference of sinnes with Iouinian neither doe we make virginitie any better then marriage I answer that we teach a difference of sinnes some to be greater some to be smaller but we disclaime the opinion of veniall sinnes And if this be heresie then as I haue prooued both fathers and some papists are heretickes Touching virginitie we teach with Paul 1. Cor. 7. that pure virginitie is to be preferred before marriage although we hold that marriage is better then single life where virginitie or chastitie are not kept but counterfeited The sixt heresie is that we despise all holy reliques of Saints with Vigilantius I answer first that Augustine Philastrius and other doe not reckon him amongst heretikes It is not eftsoone heresy if one man calleth it so Hierom calleth Ruffinus an heretike yet M. Harding saith it is straunge so to doe Secondly I answer that if Vigilantius would haue Saints reliques cast vpon the dunghill we hould not with him as for tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles Hierom imputeth it to the simplicitie of some laye men and deuoute women that had zeale but not according to knowledge Thus you approoue that which Hierom excuseth Lastly S. Hierom is so hotte against Vigilantius that Erasmus is fayne to saie Conuicijs debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom raileth without measure The seuenth heresy is that we denie with Eutyches the oblation of the sacrifice and the hallowing Chrisme But therefore are we not Eutichians who confounded Christes natures and turned his humanitie into his Deitie as for Pelagianisme and Donatisme we haue nothing to doe with them for Pelagius denyed originall sinne which we teach to be in infants and the Donatists held the Catholike church to be onely in Aphrica and to haue perished out of the whole world we hould noe such thing Nowe I haue finished the doctrine of the ould heretckes in which christian reader thou mayst behold the slaunderous tonge of the Doctor who without conscience when he could not charge vs truly with heresy hath inuented lies for may part these slaunders driue me more and more from Popery and I beseech thee by thy saluation that they way preuaile so with thee Hereafter I must speake of the deedes and manners of heretickes first we are like to Paulus Samosetanus who desired great applause of his hearers for proofe that he did so Eusebius is cited but there is no such thing in Eusebius If this be the manner of hereticks then are Papists hereticks who as it is manifest by the Doctor desire applause of men for learning in so much that they breake out into their owne praises after a most insolent manner as for the protestants they doe noe such thinge and therefore they resemble not this hereticke if hee did so Secondly we are like to the Donatists who ouerthrew aultars the trueth is Christian Reader the altars which the Donatists destroied were not of stone as Popish altars are but were tables of wood such as we haue S. Augustine maketh this plaine in his 50. epistle Thus M. Doctor you see howe your owne quotations make against your selfe By this testimonie we may learne what to thinke of the popish sacrifice as for the Donatists refusing to come to Councels we doe not so but vnfainedly desire a free generall Councell and haue giuen sufficient reasons why we came not to the Councel of Trent The crueltie of the Donatists towards the Catholikes fitly agreeth to papists who after a most sauadge manner haue murdered protestants as the Lord wil one day make manifest to the world As for Claudius de sanctis his testimonie we regard it not The rest of the chapter concerneth the destroying of Idolatrie and Luthers arrogancie with other vaine matters as disputing of women and finding fault with priests liues but I haue answered sufficiently concerning Idolatrie and therefore it is a wicked slaunder that we are like vnto Iulian the Apostatâ— as for the disputing of women let Theodoret answer who plainly testifieth that women did dispute of diuinitie That which the doctor counteth a fault Theodoret approoueth of saying thou maist see our opinions to be held of women and handmaides I wish that women were so cunning in religion that they could mildly and christianly dispute of the same But there remaineth a perilous matter ould heritikes were inquisitiue and desirous to heare of the sinnes and faults of priests and of other Ecclesiasticall persons I will not stand to examine the trueth of this whether heretickes were so inquisitiue or no onely knowe Christian Reader that this sauoreth of Manichisme for the Manichees said Lib. 2. de Maâ— as Augustine sheweth non oportet omnino quaeri c. we must not inquire at all what men they are that professe the Manichees sect but what the profession is The papists would faine haue their wicked liues hidden from men but they cannot for as ignis tunica celari non potest fire cannot be kept in the garment so sinne cannot be concealed in vaine therefore M. Doctor you go about to haue your faults concealed the more you desire this the more men will enquire into your actions because you giue iust cause so to doe Thus hauing answered your accusation of heresie I wil set downe no faine dbut true heresies which you hould Bellar. lib. 2. de purg cap. 6. houldeth that it was true Samuell which appeared vnto Saul this Philastrius maketh an heresie as it is plaine 26. haer Where he prooueth that the soules of the righteous are in the hands of God Secondly the prodiants did vse the booke of Syrach Philastrius haer post Christ 9. soe did the papists as it is manifest in so much that they make the booke canonicall scripture Thirdly the heritickes Angelici did worship Angells August 38. haer so doe the papists as it is euident Fourthly the heritickes called Apostolici taught by practise a communitie of goods so doe the Monkes for they possesse not any thing Fiftly the Euthits would not labour with their hands no more will the idle Monkes Sixtly the Pelagians taught that a man may fulfill the law of God and so doe the Papists yea they vse the Pelagians arguments and answers as I haue prooued in other places Seauenthly the Pepulians permitted priesthood to women August 27. haeres so doe the papists permit women to baptize Eightly Carpocrates did worship the Images of Iesus and of Paul Iren. lib. 1. cap. 24. so doe the Papists Ninthly the heretickes called Apocryphi would not haue the Canonicall Scriptures onely to be read but certaine Apocryphall workes Philast haeres 40. So the Papists will haue Apocryphal bookes to
confirme their opinions and to be reade for proofe of them as I haue shewed Yea they fly to traditions which the heretickes before named might also haue iustified if the Canonicall scriptures had not beene sufficient Tenthly the Manichees vsed but one part of the Communion for they would not haue wine so doe the Papists as it is notorious to all men I might mention many other heresies held by Papists but I haue handled them in another worke therefore I will not recite them here Touching the manners of heretickes if crueltie be a badge of heretickes then are Papists rightly mustered amongest heretickes for they haue most barbarously murdered many men as I will shewe God willing in the next reason The 24. reason Peace and tranquilitie It is a heathen Principle that Legem sibi ipsis indicunt innocentiae continentiae virtutumque omnium qui ab altero rationem vitae reposcunt They which require a reason of another mans life make to themselues a law of innocencie continencie of all vertues To accuse men of tumults when they are themselues tumultuous is intollerable Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes who can beare it that Gracchus should complaine of sedition that Verres should speake against theft and Milo against murther who could thinke that Papists should speake against warres cruelties and outragious tragedies when they haue spilt exceeding much innocent blood The Spanish inquisitions and French Massacres haue murdered men women and children by thousands Phocas murdered Mauritius the Emperour by whose meanes Boniface the Pope obtained that roome and should be called the head of all Churches as Gotfridus testifieth Here Christian Reader thou maiest see that the Pope cam vp by murder Pope Vrban the fixt bound fiue Cardinalls in a sacke and drowned them in the sea He tooke the kingdome of Sicile from the Queene and gaue it to others Symachus and Laurentius did striue for the Popedome which contention lasted yeares cum effusione sanguinis multorum tam clericorum quà m laicorum With the shedding of many mens blood both of the cleargie laietie Alexander 2. Codulus contended for the Popedome which contention vsque ad homicidia prorupit brake forth into murther as witnesseth Sigebert The histories are full of such examples yet saith the Doctor the Catholike Romane religion began with meekenesse mildenesse and with all quiet and peaceable meanes Whereas the Protestants both haue begun and hold on their course with seditious tumults That you may knowe your peaceable proceedings heare what Wicellensis writeth concerning Hildebrande Miscuit se plurimorum mortibus Christianorum succendent vbique incendia bellorum per totum pene Romanum imperium He thrust himselfe into the deaths of many Christians kindling warres almost throughout the whole Romane Empire Iohn Hus was burned although he had safe conduct promised him Certain men called cruciatores whē they should haue gone against the Turke hauing the Popes indulgences defloured women and murthered men to the number of three score and ten thousand Yea saith Landgius Scribi non potest quanta crudelitate vsi sunt It can not be vttered what crueltie they vsed Concerning the troubles in Germanie my purpose is not to speake of them neither will I meddle with the warres in Fraunce or Scotland Diuers countres haue diuers gouernments the tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we doe not allow so we may not condemne the poore afflicted Christians our neighbours before we heare what they can say for themselues I am a scholler not a souldier a diuine not a lawier The circumstances of forraine warres fewe knowe besides themselues as also we know not the lawes of those lands we will not therefore enter those acts which haue so many parts precedents causes concurrents From forraine common warres you come to England and are very busie with king Henrie the 8. king Edward the 6. princes of famous memorie It were best for you M. Doctor to leaue kingdoms and studie diuinitie you are so drownd in pollicie that you forget diuinity yet you can without teares recount summarily the troubles of this land So you may doe in regard of Queene Maries times when not onely Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury Payne◠Bishop of Winchester Barloe of Bath Tailor of Lincolne with diuers other both Archdeacons and Deacons were put from their liuings and wonderfull store of blood shed these are the times that you should lament Yet it is to be lamented that any should be so obstinate on popery as to die in the same As for Queene Elizabeths gratious gouernment you are not ashamed also to controll it Yet Papists themselues teach that it was both milde and mercifull and had not her Maiestie cause to deale with Papists as shee did when the Pope excommunicated her and stirred vp the Northen rebels her owne subiects to rebell against her Doctor Saunders did thrust himselfe into the Irish warres against her Maiestie If the Pope had so dealt with the king of Spaine as he hath dealt with our late most renowmed Queene would the king of Spaine haue taken it When I weighed and considered these things with my selfe I could not but dislike the Romish religion accompanied with tumults insurrections ruines desolations and with all manner of tragicall miseries and cleaue vnto this religion in England which euer teacheth peace as our writings shewe But it may be M. Doctor your owne men will beare some credit with you Cardinall Poole in his imagined oration to Charles the Emperour calling backe his Maiestie from the Turke to leaue all other affaires and to bend his banners against England and encouraging the subiects of this realme boldly to rebell against their Prince speaketh after this manner English men are a people that oftentimes haue deposed their kings for lighter causes This book as reuered Iuell testifieth was abroad and might be seene wherefore if peace wil preuaile with you call to minde that you haue bin the firebrands fo sedition the trueth is you would force to religion but you would not be forced The 25. reason All kinds of witnesses Euery man knoweth or may knowe M. Doctor that your tonge ouerreacheth when you say we can bring nothing to witnes our religiō but only the scriptures We haue produced the fathers of the primitiue Church to confirme the same but if we haue the scriptures on our side it is sufficient though all men were against vs that Gods word is not contrarie it is most true but that your practises are consonant to the same it is most false as likewise that we will admitte noe expositors of holy scriptures but the scriptures themselues that the scriptures expound themselues in matters necessary to saluation I thinke you will not denie your selfe Master Doctor neither will you alwaies take the fathers expositions Caietan confesseth that the sense of the scriptures is not tied to the Fathers exposition as I can shew but you demaund why Luther confesseth that he could not denie the reall