But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
Religion whiche it first receaued neque heresis vlla illic sumpsit exordium and that no heresie did spring there But to our matter that forwardnes in the Latine Churche he confesseth I thinke in respect of Tertullian whose manifest testimonies he coulde not otherwise shift him of and therefore of him somewhere he saith thus I denie that any of the auncient Fathers in Christ his time or Scholars to his Apostles Pu. 435. or within one or two hundreth yeares after Christ except one that had it of Montanus the heretike as he had more thinges besides in any one worde mainteined your cause for Purgatorie or Prayers for the deade Mary Montanus of whom Tertullian receaued his heresie had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes Againe I will not denie but you haue much drosse and dragges of the later sorte of Doctors Pur. 247. and the later the fuller of drosse But bring me any worde out of any that did write within one .100 yeares after Christ that alloweth prayer or almes for the dead Where as we sée by the later sort of Doctors he sheweth him self to meane such as were without one .100 yeares after Christ But of that one .100 yeares also together with Tertullian and the Fathers afore him vp vnto Christ we shall haue occasion to say more anone in our third Article Hauing therefore thus shewed in this first Article howe he chargeth the true confessed Fathers of the true confessed Church with this error as which he summeth vp together in an other place Pur. 458. and saith The error was continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Let vs now sée how he chargeth the same whole true Churche for some time with the same and that the more briefely because we haue nowe so often hard him say of so many times that it was the common error of that time and that time ij What he saieth of the whole Church in some of those times Pur. 382. Thus he saith in one place If we be asked how we can shifte our selues against the generall practise of Gods Churche for all popish assertions and namely this of praying for the dead We answere that we denye the practise to be generall because wee finde it Is nothing generall but that vvhich you find in them not in the most auncient writers that liued within an hundreth yeares and more after the time of Christ But what say you to the later practise which for places then was generall though for times you count it particular And to the particular practise of later times we answere that it is not sufficient to controll the auncient doctrine and primer practise Againe in an other place 370. The same order that was before Epiphanius and error that was in Epiphanius time doe all the later Liturgies followe and therefore saye I all the later Byshoppes and Priestes and people because they vsed those Liturgies making memorie and prayers for all them that are departed in the faith What saye you then to that practise so generall In the memorie of all departed they followe the olde order in praying for all they followe the later error which had chaunged the sacrifice of thankes geuing into the sacrifice of prayer But more of the olde Liturgies nowe in the thirde Article which must be of the originall that the Fathers referred this their practise vnto iij. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And here first for perspicuitie I remember to the Reader what S. Augustine saith of fasting August â—pist 86. Casul In the Scriptures of the new Testament Video praeceptum esse Ieiunium I see that fasting is commaunded But what dayes we must keepe fast Non inuenio in illis literis euidenter praeceptum I finde not in those scriptures euidently commaunded And yet the fast of fortie dayes before Easter and some others both he many moe of the Fathers doe say to be Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— commended vnto vs in the Scripture of the new Testament but specially that it coÌ„meth expresly vnto vs of the Au. in pâ— 110. eâ— 119. cap Hieâ— epâ— Marcel Montaâ— Apostles tradition without Scripture The like they say of prayer for the dead that it is expresly found in the holy Scripture But the certaine times that it is solemnely practised as vpon the burial day the third seuenth thirteth fourteth yeares day and also in a certaine speciall prayer of the holy Masse are they say eyther all or some of them of the Apostles plaine TraditioÌ„ though also commaunded to vs out of Scripture So say the Fathers and for their so saying let vs now sée what this maÌ„ saith of them And to omit because it requireth a longer treatie that he maketh in effect no lesse then heretiks of S. Augustine with others Infr ca. â— Pur. 214 for auouching sacrifice for the dead out of the booke of Maccabées as out of Canonical scripture Gregorie Bernard Bede whoÌ„ D. Allen alleageth vpon the place of Mathew 12 are of opinion Pur. 19. â— Gre. 4.19 Ber. Ser. in Cant Bed in Mar. 3. saith Fulke that sinnes not remitted in this world may be remitted in the world to come But howe happeneth it that Chrysostome and Ieronym which both interpreted that place coulde gather no such matter although they otherwise allowed Prayer for the deade the reason must needes be because the error of Purgatorie growing so much the stronger as it were nearer to the full reuelation of Antichrist Gregorie and Bede sought not the true meaning of Christ in this Scripture but the confirmation of their plausible error Then S. Chrysostome bylike will please him Pur. 251.247 Chris ho. â—4 in 1. cor 15. Such pitie may bring you into the pit of hell Pur. 237. but heare I pray you out of an other place I denie not but that Chrysostome doth alleage this example of Iob sacrificing for his children Cap. 1. for prayers to profite the dead What shall we say Those good men in that declining state of the Church to superstition being destitute of the cleare testimonies of Scripture to maintaine those plausible errors are driuen to such simple shiftes to vphold them as it is great pittie to see Againe But where learned Chrysostome that prayers and almes had any comfort in them for the dead surely he alleageth Scripture but he applieth it madly and yet he often applieth it to the same purpose Pur. 226. Amb. de obit Theod. Alas good man Likewise Ambrose commendeth Honorius the young Emperour for solemnising the funerals of Theodosius his father by the space of .40 dayes after the example of Ioseph Genesis .50 such superstition crept into the Churche first by emulation of the Paganes and after seeking for colourable confirmation in the examples of the
Patriarkes Pur. 363. Againe Those Doctors that would seeke confirmation of prayer and oblation for the dead in the Scriptures as Chrysostome and such like doe manifestly wrest them to their purpose I doe here no more but note that he chargeth them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche euen so as he chargeth vs But what Scriptures and how substantially they alleaged I must reserue to * See ca. 13. an other place As that also which * See cap. 9. pag. he grateth vpon so often out of Tertullian as if he should confesse that prayer and oblation for the deade is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Whereas in déede he doth not so say but onely of the solemne times of such oblation in such manner as I alleaged a litle before out of S. Augustine concerning fasting and fasting dayes The offring anima die vpon the yeares myndday for the dead and the solemne memorie of them in the Canon of the Masse these thinges Tertullian and others ascribe to the Apostles traditions and not to precept of the Scripture And now for making it such a tradition what saith Fulke againe of them Pur. 39◠Thinke you that prayers for the dead came from the Apostles because Tertullian saith so And a litle after If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he And againe Where Chrysostome saith Pur. 303. It was agreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that be departed for they right well knew great profite to arise thervpon vnto them he must pardon vs of crediting him It is no maruell now after this to sée him fayne to denie the See cap. 13. most certaine works of the Apostles Scholars Clemens Romanus Dionysius Areopagita witnessing the same tradition and to say that we haue them but of some counterfayting knaue that could not otherwise mainteine his heresie to be olde Pur. 268. The modestie of the man tovvardes the old vvriters but by falsifying and counterfayting anew that which neuer was in the olde writers heades Finally vnlesse he make the like counterfaiting knaue of S. Chrysostome also he may sée by this testimonie of his that he had no cause for this poynt to charge him or any other after him with suche a chaunge of the olde Liturgies as he doth in many places saying But be it that Chrysostome Basil did write these Liturgies Pur. 356. Itē 360.371 the oldest Fathers that can be giuen them I would know what Liturgies they had in those Churches before Chrysostome and Basil deuised those formes that are said to be theirs If you would in déede know it and namely for this poynt about the dead Chrysostome him selfe as also Augustine Epiphanius Tertullian and others alleaged by D. Allen hath tolde you that it was all one and the same afore and after It followeth in him And whye Chrysostome Basill Gregorie or any other that prescribed newe formes of seruice were not content with the old formes that were vsed in their Churches before their dayes * See his boldnes vndoubtedly because they were too simple for their curiositie too sincere for their superstition sauouring of the auncient truth not fauouring their lately receiued errors And a litle after The authors of these Liturgies thought to confirme it by publike authoritie whiche was before but a blinde error without a head I shall answere this why of yours in the sixt Chapter where I must answere for these Fathers iiij He contrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuel and his limmes Now let vs come to the fourth and last article to sée him so farre confronting those Fathers which haue thus fathered this matter vpon the Apostles partly their writings partly their tradition that he cleane contrarie fathereth it vpon the diuell him selfe sundry lims of his saying boldly that thence the holy Fathers had it Ar. 39. It is certayne saith he that prayer for the dead was first planted by the diuell as were other abuses and because it hath a great pretence of charitie deceyued simple men the sooner Pur. 386. And with more particularitie in an other place First the diuel suggested superstitious deuotion into the Gentiles by peruerse emulation of whom Iudas Machabaeus might be deceyued And his facte gaue occasion to the ignoraunt people of error And their ignoraunce first winked at because it had a shewe of pietie confirmed by custome might at length Pur. 436. for none of the auncient Fathers within foure hundred yeres was wholly of your error be allowed of Augustine and others who neuer weyed the matter by Scriptures but by the common practise And this I thinke saith he is the righte pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie And in an other place yet more particularly Pur. 416. Pur. 152.266.386.410 I haue promised sayth he and that very often and therefore so muche the more to be noted to proue that the opinion of Purgatorie had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had He beginneth that paragraph with these wordes Nowe at the length commeth the author of this Heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine whom D. Allen there alleageth that Aerius an Arian was the firste that denied prayers and oblations to profite the dead Vnto that Fulke goeth about there to aunswere to quitte Aerius and to counteraccuse those Fathers and their felowes Well then Purgatorie sayth he had the same originall that the moste notable Heresies had And what was that Heresie was receyued from the diuell by Philosophers and Gentiles And howe proue you that Purgatorie was so receyued Mary all Philosophers whiche graunted the Immortalitie of the soule as Phythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned three places for the soules departed And who else Carpocrates was a great admirer of Philosophie This Heretike learning out of Plato his Philosophie that mens soules must be purified after their death inuented a kinde of Purgatorie out of the opinion of Pythagoras Yet forwarde Origen to muche a Philosopher was not content with Plato his purification but he must bring in Platoes fire also Is this all Afterwarde about S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented by some mediators and conciliators of Origens error with the erroneous practise of the Churche Here loe we haue the thirde place the purification the fire and the name We lacke nowe but the relieuing of the Soules there For that he saith The Heracleonites would redeme their dead after a new maner namely by oyle balme water and Inuocation said ouer their heades in the Hebrew tongue But at one stroke to strike vs starke dead Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes First that the Patriarkes before Christes
worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
the dead these two places of S. Hieromes are all that he alleageth Now touching Scriptures that we alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead it is good although it be not necessary vnlesse he can fortify his new castellet of Onely Scripture better then yet he hath done to examine whether the Doctors do say as he pretendeth either generally that no Scripture at all maketh for Purgatory prayer for the dead or so much as namely this place or that place doth not Whether the Doctors say no Scripture to make for it For the first Tertullian speaking no more but of the Oblations for the dead which we make vpon their yeres mindday saith Tertul. de corona Militis Huius disciplinae si legem expostules Scripturarum nullam inuenies For this discipline if thou require a lawe out of the Scriptures thou shalt finde none Traditio tibi praetendetur autrix Consuetudo confirmatrix Fides obseruatrix Tradition shal be declared to be the author of it Custome the corfirmer Faith the obseruer Nowe commeth Fulke which also I noted in the third Chapter and for this one particuler is bold to say generally Par. 2. diu 3 that all offering and all praying for the dead is confessed of Tertullian to be beside the Scripture As where he saith Pur. 264. They that is S. Chrysostome with some other old Doctors as also nowe their Successors the Catholikes labour to wrest the Scriptures to find that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be founde in them Pur. 268. Againe Tertullian hath discharged you of authoritie of the Scripture already Againe Tertullian as wise a man as M. Allen Pur. 275. affirmeth as we heard before that prayer for the dead hath no foundation in the Scriptures Againe Pur. 286. Neuer once mentioned in the Scripture and so confessed by Tertullian one that leaned to some part of your cause Againe Pur. 393. He vtterly denieth that they came from the Scriptures Therfore by Tertullians iudgemēt you do abuse the Scriptures Agayne Pur. 410. Praying and offering for the dead as Tertullian himselfe confesseth is not taught by the Scriptures Yet soone after to shew that Tertullian with Montanus had in all poyntes the opinion of the Papistes amongest other poyntes of his opinion he noteth Pur. 417. that all small offences must as he thought be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be paide Mat. 5. But reseruing that to the eleuenth chapter as one of his grosse contradictions I will here note how vpon the foresaid particular of only Tertullian he is farre more bold then yet we haue heard Pur. 363. For thus he saith They them selues that is the old Doctors for the most part confesse that prayer oblation for the dead is not taken at all out of the Scriptures Pur. 435. as Tertullian Augustine and other Againe Of them amongst the auncient Fathers that mainteined prayers for the dead the most confessed they had it not out of the Scriptures but of tradition of the Apostles and custome of the Church They denied it to be receiued of the scriptures This he saith of S. Augustine by name and withall of the most part of the fathers hauing in his whole booke no such saying of any other neither euen that of Tertullians importing so much but only as I haue declared So then haue I shewed that he fayleth in this that he braggeth of the Doctors confessing against them selues and vs as though generally no Scripture at all doth make for Purgatory or prayer for the dead Now let vs come to particuler Scriptures Thus he sayth Of certayne particuler textes Pu. 103. S. Augustine although otherwise inclining to the error of Purgatory yet he is cleare that this texte 1. Cor. 3. of him that shall be saued through fire proueth it not neither ought to be expounded of it and that he sheweth by many reasons Enchirid ad Laur. ca 68. where he affirmeth that by the fire is ment the triall of tribulation in this life You say that he affirmeth it but he saith that it is an harde place and with doubtfulnesse speaketh accordingly Non absurdè accipi possunt So may this and this be interpreted not absurdly And where you say he is cleare that this texte proueth not Purgatorie and agayne that it ought not to be expounded of it and agayne that he sheweth the same by many reasons All is false No such matter Onely he sheweth that it ought not to be expounded after the Heresie of the Origenistes of hell fyre as though they that be in it may at the length be saued and that it may be expounded of the fyre of tribulation in this life Yea moreouer he sayth expresly that it may be expounded also of some other like fire after this life cleane contrarie to that whiche you here reporte of him though in other places you also your selfe contrarie to your selfe do reporte the same Whereof I shall anone haue occasion to say more in the third diuision of this chapter This is the onely place of all that D. Allen doth alleage for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead which Fulke pretendeth any Doctor to say that it ought not to be expounded thereof But where he sayth thus speaking of D. Allen Pur. 145. For my part I will not refuse to satisfie his demaunde He will knowe and haue vs aposed from whence wee haue that newe meaning of our Sauiours wordes that he whiche is caste into prison for neglecting of reconciliation while he is in the way Mat. 5. is caste into hell from whence he shall neuer come and then alleageth for that sense Chrysostome Augustine Hierome and Chromatius This I saye is passing childishe althoughe it were true as it is not that all those Doctours haue that sense for D. Allen demaundeth no suche thing reade his wordes whosoeuer will Yea straight after reciting the Protestantes obiection That the places of the Olde and Newe Testament Pur. 148.151 alleaged for Purgatorie though they be thus expounded of the Doctors for Purgatorie yet sometimes they be construed otherwise by the Fathers them selues I answere to this he sayth and freely confesse it For that is not the question betwéene vs whether the Fathers haue expounded those textes of other poyntes of our Catholike faith for if they haue what maketh that agaynst vs but this whether they haue expounded those textes for Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with vs and whether they haue expounded them or anye other agaynst Purgatorie which if they haue that maketh with you As for the diuersitie of true senses the Churche hath euer giuen roome saith D. Allen to the Expositors according to euery ones gifte onely prouided that no man of singularitie father any falsehood vpon any text Howbeit also euery ones true sense is not alwayes the very right and proper sense of that same text Whereof I spoke
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to
comming were in hell That Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower partes That only Martyrs and perfect men are priuileged of God to goe to Paradise That all small offences must be punished after this life where the prison is and the vttermost farthing to be payed Then for prayers a litle after And therefore sayth he it is not otherwise to be thought but that the Montanistes vpon the grounde of this opinion not content with the oblations for the dead whiche the Church then had by peruerse emulation of the Gentiles Oblations of thanks giuing also are heathenish and yet were but oblations of thankes giuing they added also prayers for the spirites of them that were dead whereof Tertullian maketh mention And that you may not doubt whether he charge vs alone or also the auncient Fathers with all this goe to his wordes alleaged out of the same place in this Chapter by me afore beginning thus And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that if the Gentils or Heretiks had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse c. After all this he concludeth in the ende saying Wherfore it is left that Montanus and his felowes were the first that taught prayers for the dead to be profitable And agayne Therfore Aërius was not the first that held our opinion but Mōtanus before him was the first that held your opinion throughly Mary you haue played the man in déede and performed I trow euery iote of the vaunting promise that you made a litle before when you said Pur. 410. That we can not reade out of the word of God we shal heare of Purgatorie among the Paganes Carpocratians Heracleonites and Montanistes of whose heresies and pestilent practises the whore of Babylon that is as your owne mouth hath here confessed the Church at the farthest by S. Augustines time hath pacht vp her Purgatorie and sacrifices for the dead as by and by I shall declare Thus I haue shewed how he noteth the true Church for so many particular errors of ours as about Ceremonies about the Crosse about the name of Sacrifice about Fastingdayes and abstinence from certaine meates about Sole life of the Cleargie and vowe of virginitie about merite of the same of abstinence about inuocation of Saints and worshipping of their Relikes about Purgatory and reliefe of the soules in Purgatory and that they were so much addicted therevnto that they counted the contraries to be Heresies and béeing opposite to the holy Scriptures and Traditions of the Apostles vj. As touching the Popes primacie To all these errors I will yet adde one more which he maketh so much of that he ascribeth the Apostasie of the Church by him imagined to the same Which for all that I will here shew to be imputed by him also to the true Church that in the second Chapter we heard him to confesse It consisteth in the matter of the Popes Superioritie To begin therfore with him an high come downward along the true Church vntil it And yet no mā then in the vvorlde that vvent out frō the Pope Ar. 47. Ar. 36. vanished quite away forsooth vpon a soden by force of a summe of mony giuen taken of Bonifacius the third and Phocas the Emperour thus he hath first of Pope Victor Victor went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches And againe Victor Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lord 200. passed the boundes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Afterwarde he noteth Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome for the like in S. Cyprians time for medling with Afrike Asia and Spaine Furthermore Anastasius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius Bishops of Rome all in a row chalenged prerogatiue ouer the Bishops in Aphrica by forging of a false Canon of the Nicene Councell And againe Celestinus Bishop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians And there in the end By these examples it is plaine that the mysterie of iniquitie beganne to worke or as he spoke there a litle before The Popes authoritie first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastatius Innocentius Zozimus Bonifacius and Caelestinus And in an other place of some of them againe Pur. 255. The Nicen Councell the first and the best was corrupted with counterfected Canons by the Bishops of Rome to maintaine their vsurped authoritie in the dayes of S. Augustine And in the nexte Chapter we shall heare him call the Churche in Innocentius his time Pur. 148. the companie which hath the Pope for their head Item the Pope and al them that take his part Finally to come to S. Gregories time where D. Allen saith thus So if thou would know whether that place that our aduersaries impudently doe alleage out of Gregorie the great against the Soueraigntie of the See of Rome Pur. 305.310.194 was in deede written for their seditious purpose beholde the practise of the same father and thou shalt finde him selfe exercise iurisdiction at the very same time when he wrote it in all Prouinces Christianed throughout the world both by excommunication of Bishops that gouerned not well by often citation of persons in extreeme prouinces by many appeales made vnto him by continuall legacies to other Nations sent either to conuert them to the Faith or to gouerne them in their doubtfull affaires and by all other exercise of spirituall iurisdiction c. He in his answer is driuen to say to this The practise of Gregorie although it were much more modest then of his Successors yet can it not be excused but it was contrarie to his doctrine whereby he reproueth an other to wit the Bishop of Constantinople in that he was not altogether cleare him selfe As though either he or any his successor vsed the stile of vniuersall Bishop and not all the cleane contrarie Seruus seruorum Dei Seruaunt to Gods seruauntes All this I haue so copiously alleaged out of him though not so copiously as I might for these thrée purposes First that the Reader might clearely sée that in so many pointes he confesseth him selfe and his fellow protestantes to dissent from them whom he confesseth to haue bene of the true Churche Secondly that againe he confesseth vs in the same points to agrée with the same Thirdly therefore and especially that he hath not for these pointes and so neyther for such as depende of these iust cause to denie vs the true Churche Note vvell vvhosoeuer seeke the Churche which he so graunteth to them that holde the same pointes and that vpon the same groundes and as earnestly or if he will euen as obstinately as we doe nowe condemning their aduersaries therein of heresie and so consequently of separation from the true Churche howsoeuer them selues rather are charged by him to haue receiued of older heretikes their opinions but that contrariwyse wée are for so muche to bée more excused then they as wée
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
any one error of theirs they are of your side The Luciferians and the Donatistes had for them the error of S. Cyprian and of his Councell in Afrike and therewith they vrged the Catholikes very sore as we sée in S. Hierome and in S. Augustine But the Protestantes I say haue not so much as any error of any father to vrge vs withall And to charge the Churche with the errors of those Fathers as you doe What a thing againe is that as if you would charge Pope Stephanus and the other Catholikes that erred not with the foresaid error of S. Cyprian For so you charge the Churche in the times of Papias Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus with their errors to shew that it decayed at least immediately after the Apostles time But at leastwise you will say some Fathers haue erred in some thing and therefore it is true that the Fathers may erre Why syrs Do we attribute infallibilitie to euery father Deceaue not the people Puâ— 383.432 make not as though you had infringed the fathers authoritie when you haue shewed that a father hath erred that is not the point betwene vs therein we agrée together But this it is that we charge you with that you resist their full and whole consent For to these we ascribe infallible trueth To the Canonicall Scriptures and tradition of the Apostles without any limitation at all in matters of Religion To the decrées of Peter and his Chaire because it is the rocke of the Church and to the whole Church and therefore againe to the Consent of the Fathers and to Generall Councells confirmed by Peters Successor because these two imploy the whole Churche Yea also to Prouinciall Councells confirmed by the same Chaire And therfore any one of these wée saye can not be against any other of these no more then Canonicall Scripture can be against Canonical Scripture And therfore againe if against these or any one of these there be as it may be any Doctor or Doctors any prouinciall Councell or any Generall Councell it is therein with vs of no authoritie as you sée in Sainct Cyprian and his Councell of Afrike But yet so long as the matter is not plainely against these the particular Doctors and Councell are with vs of great authoritie though some more then some according to the persons number question and other circumstaunces And herevpon it is that we are not hastie as you are to charge them with errors when they did not erre nor also to reueale and to amplifie their errors when they dyd erre but rather when you reueale them and amplifie them to couer them and make the least of them Iren. li. 2. cap. 39.40 so farre as trueth will permitte vs. Nowe the trueth is that séeyng the Gnostici saide that Christ beganne to preache in the beginnyng of his thirtieth yeare and preached but one yeare and then suffered in the twelfth moneth of the same yeare being so of the age of thirtie yeares to signifye their thirtie Aeones Ireneus had occasion hereby to racke the age of Christ not onely aboue thirtie yeares but also towarde .50 yeares beyng able as he thought to yelde a good reason agaynst their fabulous reason why Christ would bée so olde which was to bée an infante with infantes and so forthe tyll he were at length also an olde man with olde men as the sanctification and example of all ages specially because he thought he had both the Ioan. 8 Gospell and also tradition of his side hauing heard of Sainct Iohns Schollers in Asia that seniorem aetatem habens dominus noster docebat Our Lorde was of olde age when he Preached and thinking by olde age they must haue ment aboue .40 towardes .50 howbeit the matter of it selfe is not great and then also it was muche lesse Againe the Gnostici reiected the God Creator withall his creation Iren. li. â—… in fine as another God from God the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christ Therefore was Ireneus glad if he could shew that Christ not onely tooke his owne flesh and made his owne Sacramentes of the Creators Creatures and raised from death his saide owne fleshe and so will raise our fleshe likewise but also that he will after our Resurrection dwel here in the Creators earth with vs for a thousand yeares Apoc. 2â—… so well he lyketh the Creator and his Creatures speciallye because he thought the Apocalypse of Sainct Iohn to bée on hys syde herein and had in déede on his syde Papias who either was scholler to Sainct Iohn or rather scholler to his schollers Euseb li. 3. ca. v but homo ingenij pertenuis a man of a verye slender witte as it is easie to gather of hys writinges sayth Eusebeus and therfore not altogether suche a one as Sainct Paule required 2. Tim. â—… speaking of the schollers of his scholler Timothie qui idonei erunt c. such as shall be meete to teach others also because him selfe was not sufficient to vnderstand Apostolicas interpretationes c. The Apostles expositions being made in mysticall fygures and darke parables Howbeit the matter was not then so great vntill b Eus liâ—… 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈…〉 li. 20. caâ—… 〈…〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 afterwarde the Churche condemned peraduenture that opinion in the Heretikes called Chiliastae or Millenarij who according to d Au. 〈…〉 Cerinthus the Heretike in the Apostles tyme encreased the error with b Eus 〈◊〉 7. ca. 19 Au. de 〈◊〉 li. 20. ca◠〈◊〉 See Bib … cta Sixt Se. li. 5. not 233 intollerable augmentations of belly cheare and fleshely lust whiche they expected in those thousande yeares as the Turkes and Iewes doe Dionysius Alexandrinus wrote agaynst Nepos for it as f Eus sâ—… Hic C … in Dio … Alex. 〈◊〉 per Esa 18. in p … Iusti iâ—… pol. ad natum Eusebius hath recorded and also Sainct Hierome De viris illust And therefore it séemeth some wordes to bée lacking in another place of his where nowe wée reade as though it was Ireneus agaynst whom Dionysius wrote No more was it at that tyme a great matter for g Iustinus Martyr to be ouerséene in the sinne of the Angels both because his whole drift there is notwithstanding this by word very true that one God made all but some of his Angels did fall from him vsurpe a tyrannie ouer men till Christ came to deliuer vs and therfore the same wicked Angels do stirre vp their Gentiles now against the Christians being men most innocent and the faithfull seruauntes of the true God And also because that place Gen. 6. is the first place in the Scripture where expresse mention is made of the Angels and of their sinne for that place Gene. 3. The serpent was craftier then any beast of the earth how parabalicall it is but Gen. 6. the Septuaginta in their authenticall translation had then as S. Augustine witnesseth
plainely Angeli Dei August de Ciu. li. 15. cap. 22.23 The Angels of God where we haue nowe but onely Filij Dei The sonnes of God meaning as it is now commonly thought The ofspring of Seth that they marryed with the daughters of men that is with the ofspring of Caine which aâ—ore they refrained religiously iij. Touching Second mariages and Sainct Hierome Ar. 35. But of Iustinus his time you saye further It seemeth also that the Churche in his time was in some error about Seconde mariages and diuorcementes Had you no more to saye but It seemeth and yet coulde not absteine from accusing the Churche of God neither yet doe you tell vs why it séemeth so you neyther alleage nor so much as quote any place to proue it In the workes of Iustinus him selfe I dare say you haue it not If you tooke it out of the Magdeburgian Centuries followe my counsell hereafter and looke euerye thing first your selfe in the Authors before you beléeue your fellowes or masters any more otherwise they will deceiue you still and so you againe deceyue your puenies if they againe will trust your word Supra ca. 4 Of like stuffe it is that you accuse S. Hierom also for Second mariages say a Pur. 419. Yea Ieronym b Ar. 46. the great aduaÌ„cer of virginitie dispraiser of mariage was almost fallen into the heresie of TertulliaÌ„ in condemning second mariages You say but almost that also wtout any testimony either alleged or quoted Bylike you neuer read S. Hieroms Apologie pro libris aduer Ioui where at large he defendeth him self against all such cauils of his enemies Amongst much more thus he saith there Non damno digamos prope â— imò nec trigamos c. I do not condemne them that are twisemaried no not thrisemaried also if it may be saide eightmaried Reade that booke from the beginning and stand out if you can that very countenance onely of this most graue singular doctor wherwith he speaketh to his backbiters saying An ego rudis in Scripturis c. O belike I was altogether ignorant in the Scriptures and began then first to reade the holy bookes and therfore was not able in my writing to walke straight betwene virginitie and mariage but whiles I exalted virginitie agaynst Iouinian I condemned mariage with Marcion and Manicheus And yet so bold you be with him behind his back as you think that you lay vnto him agayne other two such perilous assertions such erroneous and hereticall absurdities Ar. 46. as no yong scholar of diuinitie would fall into To destroy the humanitie of Christ and To giue diuinitie vnder the Martyrs To report the trueth Vigilantius the heretike did say against praying to Saintes Hier. ad Vigil 2 That the soules of the Apostles and Martyrs can not be present at their sepulchres and where els they would This doth S. Hierom proue to be absurde and against the Scripture considering that The diuels gadde ouer all the world and with marueilous celeritie are present euery where And the Apocalipse saith of the Saintes Apoc. 1â— They folow the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth Of which place S. Hierome gathereth thus Si agnus vbique c. If the Lambe be euery where Ergo also these that are with the Lambe must be beleeued to be euerywhere Not meaning in personall presence euery where at once for so much nedeth not to the Inuocation of Saintes but of such power they be that they heare their suiters in all places at once and can be personally present to heale and helpe whom they will euen as the Lambe that is Christ according to his humanitie as your selfe confesse and as throughout that booke the worde is vsed heareth his suiters in all places at once and in personall presence assisted S. Stephen Act. 7. whomsoeuer els he will I say according also to his humanitie as in that respect likewise he said Mat. 2. â— All power is giuen to me in heauen and in earth And therfore you shal neuer be able in the matter of Inuocation of Saints to answer that text They follow the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth hauing said afore that he stood ouer the mount Sion so as Stephen saw him standing But you must be fayne to deny the Inuocation hearing assisting of Christ according to his humanitie as much as you denie the inuocation hearing and assisting of them that be so with Christ S. Hierome is to olde a scholer in the Scriptures or rather to perfect a master for you to answere or oppose him iiij Touching praying to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost If these afore be but particuler or such other persons as imply not the whole Church but yet two most euident examples you haue in store against the whole vniuersall true Church The first that the third Councell of Carthage though a Prouinciall Synode yet hauing the authoritie of a generall Councell because it was confirmed in a generall Councell defined that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the sonne and God the holy Ghost Mary this is a great matter in déede and incomparably worse then for Vigilantius or you to say that it is vnlawfull to pray to Christ according to his humanitie or to his Apostles and Martyrs But how appeareth it that they defined so because they determined that al prayers at the Altar should be directed only to the Father and not to the Sonne Con. Car. 3. ca. 23. or the holy Ghost The wordes of the Councell truely reported are these Vt nemo in precibus c. That no man in prayers name eyther the Father for the Sonne or the Sonne for the Father For that were to confound the persons after the heresie of Sabellius It followeth And when the Altar is stoode at let the prayer be directed alwayes to the Father Now doth it folow of this that no prayers may be directed to the Sonne and holy Ghost Such are his necessarie collections or also that the very prayers at the Altar may not be directed to them that they may not I say because for order sake they are appoynted to be directed to the Father The Arrians in S. Fulgentius time aboue a thousande yeres agoe Fulgen. ad Moninum li. 2. quaest 2. ca. 2.5 knowing this selfe same order to haue procéeded from the Apostles and to haue bene receiued and alwayes continued in all Liturgies or Masses throughout all Christendome esteemed it amongst their arguments as aperse But he teacheth the Catholikes to answere both those Arrians and this Protestant First he repeateth the argumeÌ„t speaking to his friend Moninus Dicis a nonnullis te interrogatum c. Thou sayest that many haue asked thee of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ which many thinke to be offered to the Father onely Also thou saiest that this argument is as it were the triumph of the heretikes Then he answereth it at large
your selfe also will graunt supposing once the text to be as the Councell alleageth it And therfore of your two crimes you must strike out the one to wit false or vnapt interpretation and then all is about the other wherein you say no lesse then foure times that the Councell hath falsified the words of that text And what reason yea what colour haue you for that Is it not in the vulgar Latin translation verbatim as the Councell alleageth it And so is the Councell cleared of that crime also Will you now charge your copie and frame your accusation anew agaynst the translation as differing from the original that is from the Greke But afore you do so take my counsaile with you and be sure first that the Greke is so as you say For some Greke copies Cyr. ◠Ioan. Au. i◠10. tr◠Hila. li. 7. p◠medi◠Amb◠Spi. S◠li. 3. c◠of auncient also had euen as we haue as namely the copie which S. Cyrill being a Greke Doctor expoundeth And who can doubt but the copie also of our most auncient yea and most authentical Translator had euen as he translated Which also the most auncient Latine Doctors as S. Augustine by name S. Ambrose yea and S. Hilarie too did reade iump as we do And the Latines a) vi◠Amb◠Rom◠by reason should in this matter be better witnesses then the Grekes specially séeing such varietie among the Grekes also them selues for as much as the Arrians neuer raigned so nothing like in the Latine Church as they did in the Greke where they were to cancell to chaunge to corrupt what they would And so are you answered fully in euery side nor you only but Ioachim also him selfe if he would go about to make his vantage as you instruct him One text more corrupted by our Church as he sayth and then an ende These be his words Ar. 7◠How corrupt that Latine translation is which they would needes thrust vpon vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such textes as are the most colourable places for the defence of Popishe doctrine I will giue one example for all They alleage the texte 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not agaynst the certaintie of fayth Whereas the Greke hath not He that standeth Stande out of his light that the child may see but He that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Why man looke better in the text 1. Cor. 10. our translation is there not as you charge it but euen as you say the Greke to be Qui se existimat stare videat ne cadat And yet you inferre saying Thus the Popishe Church can not altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lord knoweth This is your goodly substantiall stuffe that you haue against the Popish Church which maye séeme you well amongest the blinde that will néedes follow such blinde guides But vs that haue eyes how can you alienate from it with such geare yea could you more confirme vs in our liking of it then after this sort to bewray your selues that you haue no matter no substance yea no shadow of any thing agaynst it Well in the name of God bethinke your selues in time and humble your selues to your louing Mother this one onely Church of God In olde time it was the true Church as your selfe confesse and therefore if you had liued then you would not haue spurned agaynst it you would haue bene a good childe of it yea also though you thought it to erre How much more considering now you sée that it erred not as you thought it did Proue therefore that your heart meaneth as your tongue speaketh Proue it I say by yéelding to the same Church now which you see nowe no lesse yea muche more cleared from all errors in this answere to eche error that you haue charged it withall Or at leastwise let all other men as they loue their soules forethinke thē selues and ponder wel whether these obiections are like to be admitted of their Iudge the head husband of this Church for good pleas in that generall and most terrible Court day ¶ The seuenth Chapter That he hath no other shift agaynst our manifold Euidences so cleare they be but the name of Only Scripture as well about ech controuersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe And how timerous he maketh vs and how bolde he beareth him selfe herevpon WHat shamefull confessions he hath bene fayne to make agaynst his owne side and for our side it hath here many ways in sundry chapters appeared already But the same will now againe appeare much more clerely if in this Chapter we runne ouer the cōmon Euidences of Christian truth out of which I framed my declaration in my bookes of Motiues and Demaundes and consider that he is fayne to confesse them al to be against him and therfore to take exception agaynst them and say that neither they nor any thing els that can be brought foorth is good euidence in such suites but Scripture alone and such Scripture also as is so playne and manifest for the matter that it can not by any subtiltie be auoyded of the aduersarie For he knoweth well pardy that we bring foorth not other euidences alone but Scripture also with them But the others he séeth to be so playne that there is no remedie vnlesse they be cancelled Mary from our Scriptures he hath an euasion as he thinketh to wrangle and say that they be not playne and euident for vs but so that he can wrest thē to an other meaning The first part How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidences in the controuersies that are betwene vs. j. Against the rule to know heresie c. Well then let vs heare him speake in his owne words and first how he maketh his exception being charged many wayes with the crime of heresie Notable it is both to the confirmation of the Catholike and also to the conuersion of the Heretike to beholde how the more that he fluttereth to get out the more he wrappeth him selfe in the lime Ar. 44. First Authors As in my fourth demaund old heresies demaunde xxxviij Whereas you bragge saith he to D. Allen to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines by their names and the seuerall errors that they taught and the time and yere when they arose agaynst the former receiued truth Except you note vnto vs the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles Euangelistes and Christ him self you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise For we teach nothing but the eternall truth of God Wherfore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the Scripture And immediatly You may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the truth of our
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures onely out of the Scriptures without the commentaries of the Doctors but not also I trow without the Commentaries of Caluine and such like companions thus he saith Pur. 407. And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteined in the holy Scriptures haue certaine comfort of saluation Pur. 285. And againe to the same purpose Surely as the Sunne is not obscured with the dust that a Cock casteth vp when he scrapeth on the dunghill The Doctors vvritings a dunghill no more is the Sonne of righteousnesse or the light of his holy worde darkened by all the myste of mens deuises which Allen or his complices can rayse out of the whole heape of superstition and error to deface the glory of his Church The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and therefore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Our doctrine shall one day be tried before God and therefore we make no account how we be iudged by mans day 1. Cor. 4. So properly he vttereth his presumption in the words that the Apostle clene contrarie did speake in excéeding great feare It foloweth Your way is your owne way not the way of the Lord and because you take another way vnto saluation then the onely right waye Iesus Christ therfore by his owne sentence you are al theeues and murderers Hath any séene a man so drunken so blinded with pride Well then in the other place of searching the meaning out of the Scriptures them selues alone and neglecting the receaued Expositors what saieth he Whether the old Doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestāts Pur. 434. I haue answered before we will make no comparison with them Modestly spoken a man would thinke but what followeth Neither will we chalenge the likelihood to vs neither will we leaue it to them I mary hold your owne we pray you And why so For whether soeuer we doe we shall be neuer the more certaine of the trueth You say true for so much as concerneth your selues For in déede no certaintie of trueth but most certaine certaintie of error in your vnderstanding But in what so euer the Doctors doe agrée who so expoundeth the Scripture vnto that shall be euer most certaine of the truth which is ynough though not alwayes certaine of that same very places meaning as in the sixt Chapter I declared more at large Forth now a Gods name Supra cap. 6. par 2. But this will we set downe as a most certaine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same Spirite by which they were written The meaning of some place one may attaine vnto which hath not that Spirit but to vnderstand them alwayes agréeably to the truth can not be without that same Spirit Forth againe What then shall we arrogate the Spirit as proper to vs and denye it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirit and so haue we Hereof ariseth an obiection How then is the Spirit of God contrarie to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges He answereth God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods Spirit yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture Yea Syr Cyprian as he was of Cornelius his Spirit so was he likewise of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè as we tearme it though explicite he were of an other of an erronius iudgemēt and that according to his owne humane spirit and not according to Gods Spirit As at this day likewise and alwayes whensoeuer any Catholike man of ignoraunce erreth expressely yet notwithstanding in effect he is of the trueth with the other Catholikes which erre not because he quietly continueth in vnitie with them nor doth not obstinatly holde his owne error against them Now whether the case be so betwene the olde Doctors and you briefly and manifestly it is declared by this that neither you at this time will be refourmed by them nor they in their time would be refourmed by your forefathers Aerius Iouinianus and such like But now that you haue abrogated the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from Gods spirite both in the Doctors and in your selues say on and tell vs your aduise What then there remayneth but this seconde principle as certayne as the first That the Spirite of God hath a meaning in the Scriptures which is not to be sought out of the Scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but only in the Scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of truth No syr why suppose those men were the Apostles them selues or any other hauing the same spirite of trueth that the Apostles first had but of that ynough before foorth therefore Therefore that the spirite may declare his owne meaning Ar. 86. one place of Scripture must be expounded by an other for the hard places of Scripture must be opened by easie places all other ordinary meanes and helpes of wit learning knowledge of tongs diligence in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and triall And is this way so sure and certayne I mary For who soeuer obserueth this search and triall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certaynly And may he not trust an other which hath so precisely obserued it as for example the Protestantes me thinkes as your selfe or M. Caluine c. but I crie you mercy you meant not them Well then may he not trust the olde Fathers therein A comfortable doctrine for the ignorant forsooth or did not they obserue it diligently No for who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easily be deceiued yea you speake nowe a great worde euen when he thinketh he followeth the authoritie of the Scriptures Which search if the auncient Fathers had alwayes followed they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges as to condemne the Protestantes in Aerius and Vigilantius c. and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined as the doctrine of the Papistes Well then I sée all is in a mans owne diligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the Scriptures conferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe this is your most certen way I must therefore tell you a litle of our diligence therin that you may certifie vs whether it be ynough or no. and the rather because you exhort our master D. Allen and say to him Pur. 9. Trye the rule of the Protestantes and search the worde of God in the holy Scriptures and then vndoubtedly you shall finde the trueth and the Church also that is the pillar of trueth And againe Ar. 62. Who haue the trueth you must search in the
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
and sure for their persons and not one of them but he was thankes be to God throughly satisfied by our conference and namely by séeing and hearing our foresaid dayly reading and examination of the Scriptures Which béeing by D. Allen our President his order vsed amongst vs who can doubt but he exhorteth men to reade the Scriptures them specially that vnderstande Latin much more thē S. Bedes historie And namely the Acts of the Apostles what booke do I his scholler more often vse in my Motiues and Demaundes then that And touching a Catholike trāslation of the Scriptures you shew your selfe to know litle God wotteth what is D. Allens desire and minde therein But all men may assure them selues that any thing lacketh therevnto rather then good will and feruent zeale specially because we sée it translated already by Catholikes into al other languages almost and because we know sundry cōmodities that might ensue thereof namely because we lament to see so many soules to dye in the most holsome waters beeing turned into deadly bitternes by your Starre Absinthin Apoc. 8. your blindnes withall being suche that leauing both the authenticall Gréeke of the Septuaginta which the Apostles and Primitiue Church did vse and also the authenticall Latin which the Church hath vsed so many hundred yeres in some part euen from the beginning almost you haue serued our countrey with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes vowelling diuiding and reading it being of it selfe but one verse in the whole Psalter and ech other particular booke onely consonantes and to be read according to the tradition of the faithfull which tradition we know by our authenticall translations and not of the incredulous and perfidious No no whensoeuer we should make if we were in case and place a Catholike translation and send the copies in they should be in no lesse daunger of your searchers and fyres then our other bookes haue bene and are euery day more and more but yet that daunger should not stay vs if nothing els did knowing that such a translation will confound you ten thousande times more then all the other bookes haue done Last of all if none of my former requestes can finde place with you at the least wise you shal haue here in the Chapter folowing an answere to all your Scriptures hither vnto alleaged in both your bookes to chaw vpon for a while And then tell your Reader when as you haue here renounced all other euidences so he shall sée that you are no lesse destitute of Scripture also tell him then I say blaming D. Allen Pur. 364. and saying And yet he wondreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleare light of truth And againe in the ende of your booke Pur. 458. In Gods name let the Readers way indifferently and as they see this poynt of the dead handled so let them iudge of the rest The trueth is vpholden by euident testimonie of Scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The truth seeketh vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the spirite of God in the Scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men Now thē to these euident Scriptures in the name of God and to your diuine vnderstanding of them ¶ The eyght Chapter To shew his vanitie in his foresaide rigorous exacting of playne Scripture and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered AL the Scriptures that he alleageth against vs throughout his two bookes I do sort and distribute into foure partes The first concerning the question of onely Scripture the second concerning the question of the Church the third concerning the question of Purgatorie the fourth concerning al other questions that he mentioneth The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture And as touching the first In the last Chapter we saw how to make exception against all our other euidēces he euermore said that in all matters Onely euident Scripture must be brought and heard confessing those other euidences to be so euident for vs that they can not otherwise be auoyded Now then this béeing his onely refuge how many and how euident Scriptures hath he alleaged for it as you thinke Surely in all his first booke to D. Allens Articles they being altogether our foresaid Euidences he alleageth but one place onely and not many mo neither in his other booke of Purgatorie And what maner of place also thinke you that it is specially considering howe muche he craketh of it as where he saith Thus I haue declared Ar. 11.15 c. that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all Heretikes onely by the Scripture Agayne it hath bene already proued sufficiently Ar. 16. that the true Catholike Church which is ledde only by the worde of God the onely weapon by which heresies are cut downe counting it to be sufficient for that purpose hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes And againe Doctrine is to be sought out and tried onely by the Scriptures Ar. 82. as we haue declared at large in the answere to the fourth Article first Demaunde And once againe Ar. 86. As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or cōtention of heresie they must be resolued and determined as it is abundauntly declared before onely by the Scriptures With that place of Scripture he alleaged certayne Fathers as Hilarius Basilius Chrysostome Sainct Augustine Leo the first and the Councell of Constantinople the sixte To whom I must aunswere in the next Chapter Infra pag. But he graunteth pardie that the Fathers authoritie is no warrant to him so to crake as another where also expresly he saith Pur. 383. It is not for confirmation of the trueth that we alleadge the authoritie of the Doctors and olde Councels Then must all these crakes be onely in respect of the Scripture that you there alleaged Let vs therefore nowe heare that Scripture So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. that is to say Ar. 11. only by the Scripture That he often disputed against the Iewes prouing Iesus to be Christ I there finde but that his argumentes were none but Scriptures I finde not But reade you Actes .13 and you shall finde that he vsed also other argumentes agaynst them to witte the testimonie of certayne men as of S. Iohn Baptist and of his owne Disciples that sawe him many dayes together after his resurrection qui vsque nunc sunt testes eius ad plebem Who to this day are witnesses for him to the people Reade likewise Act. 4. for the argument of Miracles specially where it is sayde Hominem quoque videntes stantem cum eis qui curatus fierat nihil poterant contradicere Seeing the man also standing with Peter and Iohn whom they had healed the Gouernours of the Iewes were quite put to silence And therefore also if S. Paule had in your place ouercome them
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
there is no true Christian man that is voyde of Gods spirite for he that hath not the spirite of Christ is none of his Rom. 8. yet may euery true Christian erre and be deceaued in some thinges This your sophisme consisteth in speaking confusely of Gods spirite as though the gifte of it were alwayes but one whereas it is one in the whole Church and another in euery particular true Christian man For neither do we argue simply of Gods spirite but of Gods spirite so as it is the spirite of trueth and of all trueth Ioan. 14. My Father sayth our Comforter at the instante of his departure will giue you another Comforter to remayne with you for euer the Spirite of trueth And after in the same Sermon I haue yet many thinges to saye vnto you but you can not now carry them but when the Spirite of trueth commeth he will teache you all trueth This place we saye must néedes be vnderstoode of the whole Churche 1. Tim. 3. and of a gifte conuenient to make her as she is saide to be the Piller of trueth because it is euident that euery one member of the Churche by him selfe may erre and in that case néedeth no more but the Spirite of obedience to heare her whiche hath suche a Spirite or gifte that she can not erre And this is ynough to make that no damnation be by erring to them that are in Iesus Christ that is which haue his spirite Rom. 8. so that sayth he they walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite and namely in this case after this spirite of obedience as I haue said Thus muche by occasion though my purpose is not here neither to alleage places nor to defende the alleaged but onely to answere the enemies allegations Now that the Church may be diuorced his allegation is this The visible Church Ar 79. by Idolatrie and superstition may seperate her selfe from Christ and be refused of him as God speaketh by Esay to the Church of Ierusalem Cap. 1. How is the faythfull Citie become an harlot It was full of iudgement and iustice lodged therein but now they are murtherers Thy siluer is become drosse and thy wine is mixed with water Thy princes are rebellious and companions of théeues c. Euen so may he say to the Church of Rome May he forsooth but whether doth he say so vnto it or doth the Prophet say that he may you are too too ignorant in the Scriptures if you know not the difference herein betwene the Synagoge of the Iewes the Church of Christ to wit that the Synagoge with her Ierusalem might be should be diuorced but that the Church of Christ with her Ierusalem which is Rome if you haue any sight in the Actes of the Apostles should neuer nor neuer might nor may be diuorced but contrariwise should beginne in the faythfull Iewes being a very small number in respect and so call in all nations euen Plenitudinem gentium Rom. 11. Mat. 13. The fulnes of al nations fishing for that purpose in the wide Sea of this world continually without any intermission in so much that immediatly after that all Nations or Gentiles be entred in Omnis Israel saluus fiet All the Iewes euen their fulnes also shall be Christned in the end of the world To this place pertaineth this strange imagination of his and his fellowes that euen the Church of Christ it selfe should prepare the way to Antichrist inuenting forsooth or receyuing of others inuention all the superstitions all the errors all the heresies that haue bene or may be euen vnto playne defection Apostasie Whereas the cleane contrarie is most euident and notorious that the Church should and hath as the piller of trueth from time to time accursed and commaunded vs to accurse all the heresies that haue bene yea and with due animaduersion noted vnto vs al errors whatsoeuer of her owne Doctors also who them selues sometime and in some things some of them haue erred as men Therfore against this most certayne cleare truth what alleageth these Heretikes for their most fonde and most absurde imagination aforesaid Diuinitie vvithout Scripture It is the totall summe of all their newe Diuinitie yet no warrant at all haue they for it out of Scripture Ar. 35. Many abuses and corruptions saith Fulke were entred into the Church of Christ immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist But let vs heare your Scripture for it Ar. 38. The Scripture telleth vs sayth he that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the * Generall is your vvâ—rd noâ— S. Paules Generall defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thes 2. But doth the Scripture tell you that it wrought in the Church of Christ No word so It wrought in the Persecutors of the Church of Christ and in the sundry Seducers that arose agaynst the doctrine of Christes Church as now it worketh in your Heresie béeing as it shall appeare anone the very next and vltima or at the least penultima Mysticall working before the Reuelation it selfe Next of all what haue you for this that the Church of Christ is always a contemptible companie D. Allens Demaund was Ar. 8â— Let the aduersarie shew that Christes onely kingdome should become so contemptible You alleage certayne places for answere and conclude vpon them saying So that the Church in the sight of the world hath alwayes bene most base and contemptible though in the sight of God and his Saintes 1. Cor. 1. Gal. 6. Rom. 1. most glorious and honorable Alwayes you say but your places import not alwayes Some of them conteine that her Crosse and her Crucifixus are condemned of the world that is of the Infidels But that may be and yet the Church not be in their sight a contemptible companie Euen as we Christians contemne the Turkes Mahometane Religion and the old Romaines Pagane religion for one of their goddes was a goose yet no man I trow will say they were or these are now a base and contemptible coÌ„panie An other of your places is this You shall be hated of all men for my names sake Mat. 10. As though it must néedes be alwayes a base contemptible companie which is hated of all sorts of men or euen then also when it is so hated Doth it séeme vnto you that it was of contempt that the Romane tyrantes so persecuted the Romane Bishops and their Christian flocke so vehemently all the first 300. yeres Cyp. epist 52. n. 3. Haue you not read what S. Cyprian writeth of Decius the Emperour Multo patientius tolerabilius audiebat leuari aduersus se aemulum principem quà m constitui Romae Dei Sacerdotem To heare that an Emperour was set vp against him that sought his Crowne he was much more patient then that in Fabianus place whom he had martyred another should
sense but because his death was so long before preordeined of God and prefigured as the Apostles do often say to stop the mouthes of them that obiected newnesse to our Religion of saluation by a dead man As the like would be a iustification of your new Gospell if you could shew out of Scripture that Luther was preordeined for that purpose Againe in the same place you alleage that Esay speaking of the righteous that are departed out of this life saith that ther is peace and that they shall rest in their beds Esa 57. Like as he affirmeth that Tophoth which is Gehinnone or hell is prepared of old for the wicked Esai 30. Esai speaketh not of his owne time but as a Prophet of the time now since the comming of Christ who is our peace There is peace say you but he saith There shal come peace or as the Churches translation hath no lesse agreably to the Hebrew Let peace come I pray Moreouer if it were graunted that then also they did rest in their beds because the death of the Iust is but a sléepe for the assurāce of their resurrection what were this to their soules Also if their soules did rest must euery rest néedes be the blisse of heauen We say not that Limbus patrum was Purgatory but that it was a place of rest because without poena sensus though not without poena damni for the time Suppose a kings sonne and heire that by some crime deserued disheriting but the king his father of grace will let him inhirite mary not at the time he otherwise should but certayne yeres after yet during those yeres also he shall be well and honorably prouided for may we not say that this man is at ease considering his prouision and yet in punishment also considering his losse for the time Such was their case in Limbo It was not hell you say because it was not Tophet or Gehenna Why our Créede and the Scripture saith that Christes Soule was in hell Infra ca. 12. and yet no man so wicked except it were Caluine him selfe I thinke to say it was in Gehenna Therefore Gehenna or Tophet the place for the wicked was not the onely hell As vaynly and more falsely you argue that it was not hell because Luc. 16. Lazarus was caried by Angels not downe to hell but vp to Abrahams bosome Caried vp is that portari or apenechthinai But the riche man is in hell you say and he looketh vp and seeth a farre of Lazarus in the bosome of Abraham The same wise argument againe In this place this is called hel therfore no other may be called hell although the Scripture it selfe els where nameth to vs another hell The places might in situation at least in respect of the heauenly mantions being so far distant from them both be nigh together although one were vpward and also farr of both in state situation purgatorie peraduenture being betwéene them Againe if it were graunted that they were no way nigh together yet it would not follow that Abrahams bosome was heauen As neyther if Lazarus were caried vpward 4. Reg 2. For so was Elias who yet was not caried into heauen that now we speake of Another of your manifest argumentes being the last in that place If righteousnes belongeth to Abrahams children the reward of righteousnes also pertaineth vnto them Therefore Abrahams bosome was open to receiue all the children of Abrahā euen as Ioan. 1. the bosome of God was ready to receiue Abraham because he was his sonne through faith Nay you should haue said because he was That vvhich is proper to vnigenitus he maketh common to Abraham vnigenitus qui est in sinu patris The onely begotten sonne who is in the bosome of the Father and then you had saide somewhat But these your grosse ignorances in the scripture I must reserue to their own proper Chapter To your argument I say Infra ca. 12. that the reward of righteousnes may belong to one and yet not paide him as soone as he dyeth S. Paule naming both Abraham him selfe and many children of his saith expresly According to faith all these departed Heb. 11. not receiuing the promises but beholding them a farre of And againe And all these renowned by faith receiued not the promise that is the inheritance the reward of righteousnes Pur. 441.451 In two other places also you prate against Limbus but you alleage no other Scripture against it Well then you haue not proued that afore Christes comming any one went to heauen nor that all went straight to Limbus and therefore none to Purgatorie Now whether since Christes comming they all goe straight to heauen and therefore none to Purgatorie let vs likewise examine Whether since Christ all go straight to heauen There is no prayer for the dead nor Purgatory after this life you say because they that liue vnto Christ dye vnto him Pur. 451. and being dissolued are with him Ioa. 17. And in another place more distinctly Pur. 276. We beleue that the soules of the faithful the repentāt are where Christ is as he prayeth Ioa. 17. Father I will that those whom thou hast giuen me where I am they also may be with me that they may see my glory And euen so he saith to the Theefe no perfect iust man but a sinner repentant This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise Luc. 23. And S. Paul desireth to be dissolued and to be with Christ Philip. 1. That to be with Christ is to sée his Godheades glory and not onely his manheades glory would hardly be proued out of the Scripture Yet because it maketh with the foresaid definition of the Church I graunt it So then the example of the Apostle S. Paule declareth that a perfect iust man goeth straight to Christ The example of the Theefe declareth that likewise a penitent sinner goeth straight to Christ if either his penance be full and perfect or his pardon which is a remission of his penance be a plenary And the saying Ioan. 17. specially béeing illustrate with these two examples declareth as much howbeit by it self alone it declareth no more but that they which are Christes may and shall be with Christ but when it sayth not You allude there to one place more which is Rom. 14. We liue to our Lord and we dye to our Lord Whereby he meaneth not that we be with our Lorde when we dye no more then he meaneth that we be with our Lorde when we liue but that both in our life and at our death from the beginning to the end we be not our owne men but seruantes to another and that he therefore is my Iudge if I do not well and not thou also to him I my selfe must make my count and not thou for me This béeing the sense of that place you had forsooth great reason to conferre it with Apoc. 14. to controll S. Augustines sense Pur. 436.446
that be Canonical but among others being Apocryphal Cuius authoritas c. The authoritie of which boke is thought lesse fit to confirme those things that come into contention betwéene the Hebrewes no doubt and vs. But notwithstanding the Hebrues counting it Apocryphal the Nicene Councell as we reade hath reckned this booke in the number of the Holy Scriptures As also S. Augustine distinguisheth saying Aug. de Ci. dei li. 18. ca 36 The supputation of the times after Esdras to Aristobulus is not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in others among which others are also the bookes of the Machabees which though the Iewes do not yet the Church counteth for Canonicall By all which it is playne that S. Hierome meaneth not as the Protestantes do when he saith that the Church receiueth not the bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees among the Canonicall Scriptures For him selfe saith that the booke of Iudith is Canonicall by the Councell of Nice but only as I haue saide he instructeth the Christians béeing ignorant in the Hebrue tongue what bookes they should vse against the Iewes for which cause he also addressed his new Translation of the olde Testament out of the Hebrew as in many places he protesteth Hie. Apol. ad Ruff. and that the Church in Canonizing those other bookes meant not for all that that they should be vsed agaynst the Iewes who receiue them not and therfore would but laugh at vs for our labour Howbeit also if S. Hierome did saye in the Protestantes sense that the Churche then receyued not those bookes neither in her owne Canon that maketh nothing for the Protestantes For we graunt the time was when the Church did not generally receiue some of those bookes To make for the Protestantes he should haue saide that the Church and not only any priuate person neither did then nor ought afterwardes to receiue them Pur. 216. Where now is Fulke that saith Hieronym doth simply refuse these bookes of the Machabées Agayne Hieronym saith the Church receiueth them not for Canonicall Pur. 386. Yea moreouer I haue by the consent of the Catholike Church aunswered them And agayne of Tobias booke Pur. 215.230 I haue shewed by authoritie of Hieronym which is proofe sufficient agaynst the Papist that the Church receiueth not this booke of Tobias for Canonicall Scripture All this you saye but I haue shewed that not so muche as Hierome him selfe maketh with you though also if he did Supra pa. 1. eodem cap. that is not proofe sufficient agaynst vs as I haue tolde you playne inough before that it is onely the consent of the Doctours to whiche we attribute infallibilitie and the scope that of confidence of our cause we geue you to bring one Doctour if you can is not in these bymatters but in our principall controuersies And this much of the Canonicall Scriptures though it be somwhat besides my limites Whervnto yet I must néedes adde the place where you say thus Pur. 218. If Martyn Luther and Illyricus haue sometimes doubted of S. Iames Epistle they are not the first that doubted of it Eusebius sayth playnely it is a counterfeite Epistle lib. 2. cap. 23. and yet he was not accounted an heretike I say not this to excuse them that doubt of it for I am perswaded they are more curious then wise in so doing Do you make it but curiositie to doubt of that Scripture which your selfe also confesse to be Canonicall Howbeit Luther not onely doubted of it but also vtterly reiected it euen with as great courage as you haue here reiected the second of the Machabées and that also after the consent of the whole Church Is this no worse then Eusebius his fault before the Churches declaration O worthy estimation of Canonicall Scripture What matter will not you license them of your side to doubt of without note of Heresie when you dare so do in that which with you is the greatest And yet also to shewe what a marchaunt you are A falsarie Eusebius saith not as you charge him but the cleane contrarie Eu. li. 2. c. 22 His wordes are these Of Iames I reade so muche By whom the first of the Epistles which are named Catholicae is saide to be written But this one thing I maye not omit that although of some it is taken for a counterfeite because no suche number of the auncient writers maketh any mention at all of it as neither of that which is saide to be the Epistle of Iude which also is sette in the number of the seuen Epistles Catholicall Tamen nos istas cum reliquis in quamplurimis Ecclesijs publicè receptas approbatasque cognouimus Yet we haue founde these with the residue to be publikely receiued and approued in very many Churches ij About onely Scripture Next vnto this I take in hande the question of Onely Scripture thinking better to deferre the rest touching Purgatorie to the end of the chapter dispatching also all other questions before because they be shorter Howe he ascribed all authoritie to Onely Scripture and nothing to ought els we heard in the seuenth chapter If the Doctors be not of their ovvn side they be on â—ulks side Now he will beare the ignorant in hande that the Doctors were of the same opinion yet confessing withall that they helde the contrarie no lesse then we doo as partly in that same chapter we saw partly here agayne we shall sée And therefore in this question agayne as in others afore it is no more agaynst vs then agaynst those Doctours them selues whatsoeuer he wresteth oute of their writings Cyprian would haue nothing done in the celebration of the Lords supper namely in ministring of the cup Pur. 287. but that Christ him selfe did li. 2. Epist 3. I answere he writeth there contra Aquarios against them that offered in the Chalice water onely whereas Christ offered wine That he calleth aliud quà m quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit An other thing then that which Christ did first for vs as being cleane against Christes doing and such a doing as he did for a tradition to vs. But otherwise to mingle the wine with water S. Cyprian there requireth and that also by Christes tradition and therfore he buildeth not vpon onely Scripture as you in alleaging him séeme to pretend Pur. 303. Now for an other Doctor where Chrysostome sayth It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy Mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed we will be bold to charge him with his owne saying And there you alleage foure places out of him against him selfe as it were for onely Scripture Is not this pretie shewing of the Doctors to be of your side And what are these places of S. Chrysostome First IdeÌ„ Ar. 69. Hom. de Adam et Heua Satis sufficere c. We thinke it suffiseth enough whatsoeuer
you alleage there is no mention at all of Scripture but onely of preaching and teaching Likewise S. Hillarius most expresly auoucheth euery where the authoritie of the Nicene Councell against the Arrians and yet you pretend that he would haue heresies against the Trinitie Ar. 11. Hilar. li. 4. de Trin. to be confuted not by mens iudgement but by Gods word You marke well what he doeth in that place How heresies must be confuted is not his purpose but to answere the Scriptures that the Heretikes abused and misconstrued which he there had recited at large therefore he saith Cessent propriae hominum opiniones neque se vltra diuinam constitutionem humana iudicia extendant Let mens proper opinions cease neither let the iudgementes or fancies of men stretche them selues beyonde Gods limite Therefore against these prophane and impious institutions or Catechismes of God let vs followe the selfe-same authorities of Gods sayinges which they alleage in their owne false sense restoring euery one of them to his true meaning Which there consequently he doth A goodly testimonie for your purpose The saying of S. Basill is in euery mans mouth Basi de spi Sanc. ca. 27 that the Doctrines preached in the Church we haue them partely by writing partely by the Apostles Tradition without writinge And if we go about to reiect suche vnwritten customes we shall vnawares condemne the Gospell also Imo ipsam fidei predicationem ad nudum nomen contrahemus yea wee shall bring the verye preaching of our faith to a bare name And you your selfe doe note it as a greate matter that by his confession here Pur. 380. the wordes of Inuocation when the Blessed Sacrament is shewed are not taughte by the Scripture no more then many other ceremonies that he rehearseth in the same place And yet must he also beare you witnesse against himselfe for Only Scripture Ar. 11. Basi de vera side in prooem Moraliū Well what saith he In his treatise of faith We know that we must now and alwayes auoyde euery worde and opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lord. I say the same But it is not all one to be differing from our Lords doctrine and not to be expressed in Scripture In so muche that he alloweth wel of those words in speaking of the Trinitie Quae apud Sanctos viros in vsu fuisse reperirentur Which had bene vsed of the holy fathers although they were not in Scripture Basi in Regulis breu Interrog 1. Two sayings more of his you alleage In his short definitions to the first interrogation Whether it be lawfull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe to do or say any thing which he thinketh to be good without testimonie of the holy Scriptures He answereth For as much as our Sauiour Christ saith that the Holy ghost shall not speake of him selfe what madnes is it that any man should presume to beleue any thing without the authoritie of Gods word If you saw the place your malice passeth The words are these Quis esse tanta vesania c. Who can be so madde that he dare so much as to thinke any thing of himselfe And it followeth But because of those things and words that are in vse amongst vs some are playnly taught in the holy Scripture some are omitted Concerning them that are written they must precisely be so obserued and concerning them that are omitted we haue this rule To be subiect to other men for Gods commaundement renouncing quite our owne willes Which he saith because he writeth there to Monkes who vow obedience to their Superiours Basil Mor. Reg. 26. c. 1. Agayne In his Morals Dist 26. Euery word or deede must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scripture for the perswasion of good men and the confusion of wicked men He there admonisheth his Monkes béeing studentes of Diuinitie to be so perfect in the Scriptures that they may haue a text ready at euery néede so as Christ had to repel the diuels temptation Mat. 4. and Peter to answere the Iewes scoffe Act. 2. And we desire the same in so much as when you bid vs cast all away that is not written we haue this text ready where S. Paul biddeth vs the contrarie To hold the Traditions which we haue learned whether it be by his Scripture or by his word of mouth 2. Thes 2. Last of all we haue to sée what you alleage likewise out of S. Augustine for your onely Scripture Augustine For you play with his nose also as you haue done with his fellowes the foresaid Doctors confessing that he is for vnwritten Traditions and suche other authorities as we stand vpon and yet alleaging him for Onely Scripture Your confession I haue reported at large in the seuenth chapter as for example where you say Augustine blindly defendeth in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda Pur. 349. and else where the cōmon error of his time of prayer for the dead which by holy Scripture he was not able to mainteine contrarie to his owne rule of only Scripture in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Well then how do you shew out of Augustine against Augustine him selfe that this was his rule You make your shew in thrée partes Ar. 12. Pur. 383.405.368.451 First you quote onely without recitall of any words eleuen or twelue places out of him In which he preferreth the authoritie of the Canonicall Scripture before all writings of Catholike Doctors of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions So you gather of those places But that is not the question Which is to be preferred but this Whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie And touching the preferment also recite the wordes when you will and it will appeare playnly that he neither preferreth the Scripture otherwise then we do Your second part is about this one question Ar. 12. Who haue the true Church Of whiche question you saye that S. Augustine would haue the Church fought only in the Scriptures Reade my first Demaund and you shall sée what S. Augustine would haue in that question and that I would haue the same to wit that you answere the Scriptures that he alleageth for his Church and for ours together and that you bring one text for the visible Churches perishing after a time or vanishing out of sight and one text that one Luther or one Caluine should after so many hundred yeres restore it againe This is the summe of al. In dede he is content in that question to set aside all other authorities so to draw the Donatists who drew backe al that they could standing vpon other things impertinent to try it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer saith You allenge him De 〈◊〉 Ecclesia cap. 2. where he saith and the like cap. 3.5.6 The question betwene vs and
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
24. but kéepe still in the visible euerlasting Church that visibly commeth of me beginning at Hierusalem 4. Rising after Motiue 19. Article 11. Fourthly I require them to shewe any beginning of our Church other then the beginning of Christes Church at Hierusalem Act. 2. As we shew and the world séeth the beginning of their companie now of late by Luther who afore was one of vs nor he onely but all that he drew away after him So that no man can say they were afore that inuisible Protestants because it is so euident that they were visible Papists And to these two or either of them Fulke answereth nothing I require them moreouer in the same Demaund to shewe so much as any first beginner of any one Article of our doctrin so as he receiued it not at the handes of his Predecessors and they of theirs and so forth euen vp to the Apostles As we shew that Luther began his new Articles of him selfe and receiued them not at any mans hands And also if any of the same Articles had in old time any patrone as Aerius agaynst praying for the dead that he likewise in his time was the first beginner of it and receiued it not of his Elders but that his Elders held the contrary of his Article so that his Article euidently was of him selfe and not of the Apostles Hovv this iiij and xxxviij Demaund doe differ I do not here charge them with such Articles as they were of the Church then condemned for heresies for that is enough of it selfe against them whether they were then first begon or afore and therfore I haue of that a seueral Demaund num 38. but as they were then first begunne which of it selfe is enough to shew that they were not receiued from the Apostles whether they were condemned of the Church then for Heresies or no. Now of these matters there are two long Treatises betwene D. Allen and Fulke first in the booke of Articles Art 11. pag. 35. to 47. Secondly in the booke of Purgatorie lib. 2. ca. 13. and 14. pag. 387. to 424. In which places the olde Heresies that they charge one another withall I reserue to their proper place in the Demaund aforesaide as also the chaunges that he sayth some Popes to haue made to the 45. Demaund What then belongeth to this Demaund First touching the argumentes or consequences secondly touching the antecedents The 1. Arg. The one argument is this Our first Authors can not be named Ergo they were none other but the Apostles His first answere is that it followeth not And one while he doth nothing but chafe at vs for it saying Must we finde out the authors of Heresies Pur. 391. Nay iustifie them your selues by the worde of God if you can c as I noted here cap. 7. pag. 79. Another while he will answere it with a witty example of the common wealth saying Must the Magistrate either iustifie a theefes possession or els bring out the author where he had it Nay the theefe must bring out good proofe how and by whō he came by such goods or els he is worthy to be serued like suche a one If that would serue we bring so good proofe for the Article of praying for the dead wherof you there intreat that your selfe confesse we stole it not but that we receiued it from hand to hand of our Auncetors ca. 3. whom your selfe confesse to haue bene the true Church of Christ cap. 2. Will you then quit vs with your witty example charge Christes Church to be a théefe But you confesse cap. 3. pag. 19.20.21 that she telleth you how she came by it to wit by the Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles And moreouer howe your friend Aerius would haue stolen it from hir as now your grandsire Luther would steale it from hir heire What Magistrate after al this wil admit the théefe to pleade against the lawfull heire in such childish maner as you do hauing nothing neither to disproue the possession or the Euidēces of the heire nor to bring as Euidence for your selfe as by my answers in the chapters aforegoing it is most manifest Pur. 388. Againe you say the first author of euery heresie can not be named Where you recken ten and say These and a hundred more heresies shal they be thought to haue their heresie from Tradition of the Apostles if the first author of them can not be named For example There was one heresie of them that were called Acephali because there was no head knowen of them Where haue you that cause I Nicenū 2. con pa. 62. tomo 3 Nicep li. 16 ca. 27. finde that Seuerus B. of Antioch was their head whose name was Seuerus Acephalus And againe that they were but a piece of the Eutichians whose head was Eutyches as the Puritanes whose special head we be not certayne of are a piece of the Caluinists In such sort to shew the author is enough or also to shew the beginning it selfe for that is the cause why we séeke for the author to shew the beginning Which againe is shewed euē by this that the primitiue name of Christians would not serue them but they must haue new names to be called by that I say declareth that they began after the beginning And so we can shew the authors also of the other nine Heresies that you name which also your selfe do in naming of them and of all other if it were worth the while as partly you may sée noted in M. Rishons Table And in no such sort can you shew our first authors And so I am now come to your second answere wherein you denie our Antecedent For you say Pur. 402.413 If any man or men were the authors of our faith as it fareth with the Popish faith we should be iniurious vnto them if we did not acknowledge our founders as they do some of theirs Tute Lepus es pulpamentum quaeris You make D. Allen to be that same non plus of Cambridge Pur. 64. who when he lacked an argument said he would dispute ex concessis You are he euen your selfe Do we acknowledge any founders of our faith but the Apostles of Christ Ar. 47. Agayne you say Thus we haue noted to you the names of diuers Heretikes which first preached certayne Articles of your doctrine Those notes you meane wherewith you noted here cap. 3. pag. 24. the confessed true Church aswell as vs which I haue cleane wyped out cap. 6. pag. 57.58 and will wype away the rest likewise here in the 38. Demaund Ar. 39. Pur. 389. Againe for the first beginning of one particulare you say It can not be proued out of any authentical writer or by any credible author that any before Tertullian who was almost two hundred yeres after the incarnation of Christ eyther named or allowed prayer for the dead or that it was vsed in the Church Tertullian him selfe flourishing
when the matter was brought before the Pope he tooke such blessed order with it as was very méete for his Apostolike See to wit that the Friars new scandalous booke secreto combureretur should be priuily burned for shaming their order say you And what fault was that I pray you Know you not how S. Augustine vsed Pelagius and his disciples in the beginning of their new doctrine when he first wrote against them Tacenda adhuc arbitratus Aug. Retr li. 2. ca. 33. c. I thought good not to expresse as yet their names hoping that so they might more easily be amended Imo Pelagij ipsius nomen non sine aliqua laude posui quia vita eius a multis praedicabatur Yea in my next writing expressing the name of Pelagius himselfe I did it not without some prayse because his life was commended of many Thus did S. Augustin vse one Monke and him the author of a most pestilent Heresie as he proued afterwards And your Christian spirite would haue all the order all Monkes the innocent also shamed for the fault of a few Such would haue bene your care to amend those few and such your prouidence to saue the wheate whereof these fewe might haue made as gret waste if they had not bine wisely handled as Friar Luther now hath made for lacke of a siluer spurre and a Cardinals hatte and as Erasmus also might haue made had he not bene made of by Catholike Bishops farre aboue his merites Yet one shift more you may séeme to haue where you say for your argument ab authoritate negatiuè of the whole Scriptures authoritie negatiuely Pur. 449. And this conclusion M. Allen him selfe made of mans authoritie cap. 13. Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not preached against at their first entry Ergo they are true or rather there was no such entrie of them as you imagine but they came lineally and quietly from the Apostles But of all mens authoritie it is false you say Howsoeuer the argument of all mens authoritie negatiuely be good or bad who but you would call this such a one All heresies according to the Scriptures Fathers and Histories haue bene preached against at their first entry This was neuer preached against Ergo this is no heresie nor neuer since the Apostles time did enter ¶ Names In the thrée next Demaundes I haue thrée easie and familiar notes by our bare names to know which side is right Ar. 66. and which is wrong To that generally Fulke saith He is a foolish sophister that reasoneth from names to the things In what Logike he hath that axiome I know not But this I know and you shal heare it * In the 7. Dem. See cap. 11. his 37. cōtr Aug. in Ps cōt partem Donat. Ar. 68. anone that also him selfe so reasoneth I know moreouer that S. Augustine so reasoneth Dicitis mecū vos esse saith the Church to the Donatists sed falsum videtis esse Ego Catholica dicor vos de Donati parte You say that you be with me But you see it is false For I am named Catholica and you Of Donates part S. Augustine I trow he will not call a foolish sophister nor him selfe a foolish sophister Againe he saith generally If the onely name of an honest man of a learned man of a good Christian is enough to proue the thing many a knaue asse hypocrite may proue himself an honest man a learned man a good Christian As though we said the argument to be good frō euery name to the thing No syr we say it no more but of thrée sort of names of which the Fathers said it before vs and experience teacheth it and you can not disproue it by giuing any instance For there are in it further reasons then onely arguing from names to things 6. Catholikes Motiue 1. Article 20. First then we say that sith the Apostles did bid vs beléeue that church which is named The Catholike Church euermore to this day they haue ben true Catholikes in déede which were in times of Heresies and Schismes commonly called Catholikes and easily knowen thereby For this we alleage among others S. Augustine wherof you take notice which may be written it is so rare a thing in this your booke against the Articles and go about to answere him with his owne words but very fondly as I haue shewed cap. 9. pag. 182. The rest that you haue is oppositions after your custome As where you oppose to this name your stale exception which here cap. 7. Ar. 69. you oppose to all things of Onely Scripture saying Wherfore howhoeuer you boast of the honorable name of Catholike except you proue that your opinions agree with the Scripture they are not Catholike in dede by Chrysostomes iudgement Againe By this you may see that Chrysostome thought it not sufficient to haue the name of Catholike Your folly in this allegation I detected cap. 9. pag. 172. neither is it Chrysostomes neither doth he speake of the name Catholike nor of the Apostles writings but of the Apostolike Sees writings Ar. 66. Another opposition You your selues will not account the Grecians now since their separation for true Christians And yet as many nations haue since then called them Catholikes as you are able to shew on your side Though they are not so called by you for no more are you so called by them Be bolde to say ynough how litle soeuer you be able to proue To saye the Grecians be called Catholikes is like as to say the Latines be called Catholikes which were forsooth a proper saying considering that not only we but you also be Latines But this I say that as among the Latine or Westerne Christians he that in common talke or writings heareth Catholikes named vnderstandeth vs therin not you so likewise if he heare the Catholike Gretians or the Catholikes of the East whether he be Latine or Gretian he vnderstandeth them that be with the Pope beléeue the holy-Ghost to procéede of the sonne also not the Schismaticall Heretical Gretians And therfore in this example is nothing to the contrarie but that they be true Catholikes which are knowen by the name of Catholikes And so much you say of the name and rule it selfe Now which of vs two haue that name whether we or you Ar. 66. The Heretike Gretians do not call vs Catholikes you say No more do you that be Heretike Latines But yet both you and they mistake not the person when common talke and bookes so calleth vs. Therfore I say we be true Catholikes On the other side you say Ar. 68. And we haue as many Nations and more then you haue that by publike authoritie call vs Catholikes and you Heretikes Who be so called any where by publike authoritie is not the question but who be commonly called knowen by that name Howbeit also of any such publike authoritie no man knoweth but your selfe But this
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
vnproperly because he also saith our bodies by mortification to be made a liuing Sacrifice Rom. 12. To knowe what is properly or vnproperly called this or that you should sée to the natures of the things in them selues And then séeing in Christes death open separation of his body from his bloud and in Consecration mysticall separation of them because the words do worke that which they signifie you should say in both those Christes body to be properly a Sacrifice as I told you likewise before cap. 6. pag. 47. but in perpetuall virginitie and other mortification because there is no such separation of our substantial partes but onely of our affections from vs they be called Sacrifices not properly but onely by a metaphore and similitude Well then what obiections haue you now against this Priesthood and Sacrifice of the Fathers and ours Either that it is none at all or that it is not a Sacrifice in Christes body as S. Augustine said First Out of doubt Pur. 294.295 if the bringing foorth of bread and wine had bene anye thing parteining to the Priesthood of Melchisedech the Apostle Heb. 7. would not haue omitted to haue compared it with Christ But the Apostle comparing Melchisedech with Christe in all thinges in whiche he was comparable neuer teacheth it as any part of his Priesthood If it were no part of his Priesthood what was it then It is playne by the text that Melchisedech beeing both a king and a Priest as a king liberally enterteined Abraham and his armie and as a Priest blessed him The text in our vulgar Latine translation is this Proferens panem vinum erat enim Sacerdos Dei Altissimi In your vulgar English translation this He brought foorth bread wine For he was the Priest of the most highest God And in the Hebrew the poynting declareth that also the Rabbins thēselues take it in the same sort as also the very words do signifie specially standing in such order And all our Fathers do agrée Cyp. ep 63. S. Cyprian shall suffice for all who declareth the order of Melchisedech De sacrificio illo venire to come of that Sacrifice not of euery Sacrifice but of that Sacrifice And more distinctly to descende of these thrée thinges quod Melchisedech Sacerdos Dei summi fuit that he was not a common Priest but the Priest of the highest God as S. Iohn Baptists preeminence among al the Prophets is signified by this word Propheta altissimi the prophet of the highest Luc. 1. quod panē vinū obtulit hauing said afore protulit which two you thinke cannot stand together that he offered not as other Priests but bread and wine Quod Abraham benedixit that he blessed not euery body but Abraham the father of al the faithfull of Christ And in déede who is so blinde not to sée the corresspondence in Christ but you onely that are not Abrahams children We Catholikes his children in faith and souldiers in confession of the same do sée playnly before our eyes our true Melchisedech as first by him selfe at his last Supper so stil by his ministers to bring forth bread and wine and thereof as our High Priest to offer for vs this most acceptable Sacrifice and as our king of kings who with so few loaues fed many thousands to prepare for vs this most Royal feast which we can neuer inough admire Mat. 14. 15. so singularly by this blessing both God and vs that the sacrifice and feast it selfe is named Benedictio and Eucharistia Blessing and Thankesgiuing Which S. Cyprian doth there prosecute very swéetely saying For who is more the Priest of the highest God then our Lord Iesus Christ who offered Sacrifice to God the Father and offered the same against those Aquarij who offered water in the Chalice and not wine which Melchisedeth had offered that is bread and wine suum corpus sanguinem his owne body perdie and bloud Also that blessing going afore about Abraham ad nostrum populum pertinebat belonged to our people saith he as a Bishop minister of the true Melchisedech To * The end of bringing foorth vvas to blesse as also S. Augustine said aboue the end therefore that in Genesis the blessing about Abraham might by Melchisedech the Priest be duely celebrated there goeth afore an Image of Christes sacrifice an image I say consisting in bread and wine c. Where is now your argumēt ab authoritate Heb. 7. negatiuè with your out of doubt contrarie to your owne Logike here cap. 8. pag. 134. For besides all this I aske you whether Melchisedeth were a Priest without all sacrifice at all If you say yea your Diuinity is contrary to Heb. 8. For euery high Priest is ordeined to offer giftes and sacrifices Note Wherefore it is necessary hunc habere aliquid quod offerat this Priest also to haue somwhat to offer If you say he had some sacrifice tell vs I pray you how he was comparable to Christ in his Priesthood vnlesse he were also in his Sacrifice considering that his Priesthood consisted in his Sacrifice And so you sée that he was comparable to Christ in some thing to wit in his Sacrifice supposing also that it was not the sacrifice of bread wine in which the Apostle compareth them not What a blindnes is this in you not to sée Melchisedech in his bread and wine so expresly mentioned to be comparable vnto Christ whereas by the Apostle also the very omitting of his father and mother and genealogie is in Genesis a shadowing of Christ séeing also bread and wine so notably vsed in the world by the institution of Christ Such is either your ignorance in the Scriptures or also peruersenes against your owne knowledge Your second argument may be where you take on like Caiphas Mat. 26. and say it is a blasphemie Pur. 298.299 c. for the Fathers and vs to say that we haue the Priesthood after the order of Melchisedech confirmed vnto vs by oth Psal 109. For then you saye we must be Christ him selfe with his eternall diuinitie and euerlasting natiuitie and sitting on the right hand Why syr doth not the Scripture likewise say that there is one Baptizer Ioan. 1. Mat. 3. Hic est qui baptisat and he such a one as vpon whom the holy Ghost cōmeth and abideth and to whom the Father saith This is my naturall sonne Must we then be said to blaspheme VVhat a doctor Fulke is and take al that to our selues if we say that we are baptizers You are a great Doctor forsooth so to argue No syr we are baptizers and priests Aug. de ci li. 17. c. 17. but as his ministers we offer Sub Sacerdote Christo quod protulit Melchisedech Vnder Christ the Priest saith S. Augustine and therfore he singulerly is the one baptizer and the one priest So were not all the rest in the time of the olde Testament the ministers of
Aaron but Aaron him selfe was Priest only in his owne time and after him euery one in his time was priest aswel as he and therefore in that law were many Priests So that the old Testament was like to England since the Conquest hauing successiuely many kings But the new Testament is like to England during the time of one king who being but one yet hath many ministers as one might say so many ministeriall kings Your third argument The Apostle to the Hebrues teacheth vs cap. 10. Pur. 289.201.45.451 that Christ offering but one sacrifice for our sinnes that but once cap. 9. hath made perfect for euer those that are sanctified that our sinnes are taken away by that Sacrifice and therfore there is no more sacrifice for sinnes left Do you vnderstand the words that you alleage Do you know what he meaneth by those that are sanctified by their making perfect by Sacrifice for sinne Verely you do not as by by it will appeare The scope of that Epistle is to exhorte the Hebrewes that is the Christian Iewes who were sore assaulted of the other Iewes partly with obiections partlye with persecutions to perseuer in the faith of Christ He doth therfore tell them that in the old Testamēt there was not Remission of sinnes but continuall commemoration of them Heb. 10. But now that Christ hath offered him selfe vpō the Crosse Vna oblatione cōsummauit in sempiternum by that one oblatiō he hath made perfect for euer sanctificatos the sanctified Heb. 10. that is 1. Cor. 6 the baptized So that of their former sins there is now no more remēbrance Iere. 21· therfore no more any offering for the same Heb. 10. but if they dye they go straight to heauen So mightily and so graciously doth that one oblation work in baptisme But what if after baptisme they sinne againe For that S. Paule there doth not at the least The true meaning of the Epistle to the Heb. directely tell any remedie because his purpose there was no more but to exhorte the standing to perseuerance and therefore he doth rather terrifie them saying If they fall againe Iam non relinquitur pro peccatis hostia now is not leaste Sacrifice for sinnes that is to say Christes death will not worke with them in another baptisme This he telleth them but remedie he doth tell them none But we by his other Epistles by the other Scriptures and by Tradition of the Church do tell such also against the Nouations that the same one oblation of Christ hath prepared for them also a remedie though not another baptisme yet the Sacrament of Penance We magnifie it yet moreouer and say that it hath also prepared many other Sacraments besydes these to other singuler effectes and in one of these Sacramentes a Sacrifice also in which it worketh to sundrie purposes By this appeareth I say your ignorance in things which yet you feare not to affirme as that the Catholikes should saye Christ hath not made them that are sanctified Pur. 451. perfect by a Sacrifice once offered for all for the greatest parte is lefte to the Masse As though when one commeth to vs to be baptized we diuided the remission of his sinnes betwéene Baptisme and the Masse This is your blindnesse to think that to be against the honor of this one Priest and of his one Sacrifice which is highly for it to wit to haue vnder him many ministers and many ministeries as it were cōduites to deriue his purchase and redemption to his people If we ascribed ought to any man or to any thing but from that Priest and from that Sacrifice then you might well exclayme against vs. And we in the meane time worthily exclaime against you for Apostating from the ministerial Priesthood the mysticall sacrifice and gracious Sacraments which he by his death purchased and left to his Spouse the Church our mother for our saluation and she hath kept them to this day deinceps and will kéepe them as S. Augustine said hereafter euen to the ende at what time your vile tongue shall reape as now it soweth Now after your Scriptures let vs heare your Doctors against this Sacrifice to proue that there is none such or at the least not consisting in Christes body Pur. 316.292 That Augustine by this Sacrifice meaneth not the body of Christ is manifest in his booke De fide ad Petrum Diac. cap. 19. Because there he calleth it Sacrificium panis vini the Sacrifice of bread and wine The same writeth being Fulgentius and not Augustine in the very like place as you may sée here cap. 6. pag. 63. and calleth it Sacrificium Corporis Sanguinis Christi The Sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ By the firste name for the matter by the seconde for the hoste But he sayth further you obiecte that In isto Sacrificio gratiarum actio atque commemoratio est carnis Christi quam pro nobis obtulit sanguinis quem pro nobis effudit In this sacrifice is Thankesgiuinge and commemoration of the fleshe of Christ whiche he offered for vs vppon the Crosse and of his bloud whiche hee shedde for vs. But what a commemoration In illis Sacrificijs quid nobis esset donandum figuratè significabatur In hoc autem Sacrificio quid nobis iam donatum sit euidenter ostenditur In the Sacrifices of the olde Testament was figuratiuely signified what should be giuen vs. But in this Sacrifice is not figuratiuely signified but euidently shewed what is alreadye giuen vs. In them praenunciabatur occidendus He was prenounced to be killed for vs in this annunciatur occisus he is announced already killed In such maner as in Rome the martyrdoms of S. Peter Paule are vpon their feast cōmemorated euidently shewed and announced by their very bodies and heads then sene and visited For which cause the Relikes of Martyrs be often in * Aug. de ci li. 22. ca. 8. antiquitie called The memories of the Martyrs And yet no Martyrs Relikes or body doth so expresse the very species of his martyrdome as the mysticall separation of Christes body and bloud in this diuine Sacrament doth expresse the species of his passion Ar. 55. But you haue one wonderfull place of S. Augustines For if it were well wayed it will you say interprete and answere all places of the auncient Doctors where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the Communion In that place go first the words which I put here in the 22. Dem. pag. that he calleth it the one singular sacrifice of the Christians Then follow afterwards the words that you meane Ipsum vero sacrificium corpus est Christi And that same one singular Sacrifice is the body of Christ quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt ipsi Which body is not offered to the Martyrs for this be they also This to wit the body of Christ Hereof
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
ignorance and otherwise do liue in good works especially his welbeloued seruantes also praying for them Yet to damne such also because they be out of the Church is congruous to his iustice Yea for God to saue al the world is cōdigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because that it is condigne to their owne merites Thus while you went about to stayne Gods Church in vaine it is fallen out only by the way that you your selues are Messalians for denying the grace of the Sacraments Pelagians for denying the necessitie of Baptisme and Manichees for denying Frée-will This is all that you haue gayned 39 In confessed Heretikes onely Motiue 46 When we make the Protestantes to confesse as in the last Demaund that the Primitiue Church noted certaine to be Heretikes for holding their doctrine they set themselues against the Primitiue Church also such is their obstinacie say that those persons were not Heretikes therein We therefore not leauing them so if it be possible any way to open their eyes or at lest the eyes of the poore deceiued people do shew them as in this next Demaund that the same persons were Heretiks in other poynts also so playnly that we make them to confesse that also And neither yet will their hard stonie hartes relent Ar. 44. If Aerius had not bene an Arrian saith Fulk his opinion against praying for the dead could not haue made him an heretike though both Epiphanius of the Gréeke Church and Augustinus of the Latin Church do so register him Then what do we more We aske them Pur. 421. Why God openeth these mysteries alwayes and onely to suche as you your selues saith D. Allen to them can not deny to be Heretikes and not to Athanasius Epiphanius Augustinus or some other blessed men of that time but contrariwise leaueth these his elect and doctors of his Church in ignorance yea and with pertinacie condemning those true mysteries for soule Heresies and hath no body in the meane time to be their reformers but such as are infamous and of no credite by reason of abominable confessed heresies And do they yet relent No I warrant you Such a yoke it is to be once wedded to heresie And yet they haue no answere herevnto that may satisfy any man of reason as now we shal sée For thus saith Fulke vnto it Pur. 409.422.424 Ar. 44. What if any Heretike hath affirmed some thing that is true Is trueth worse in an Heretikes mouth The diuels them selues confessed Christ As though it were agréed that it was trueth which those Heretikes affirmed as it was agréed that he was Christ whom those diuels confessed No syr that is the question But if the diuels had said one thing and the Apostles the contrarie which then were like to haue bene the trueth For so the Catholike Fathers saide with vs and the Arrians said with you which therefore is like to be the truth You say truth hath testimonie of Gods word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the diuell it is all one Mary in déede he that would defende the diuell saying agaynst the Apostles affirming that he can bring Gods word must néedes haue audience though he put vs to our trumps So you defending Aerius the Arrian Heretike against the Catholike fathers bringing Scripture do trouble vs forsooth as the reader hath séene here in the 8. chapter where I haue answered al your Scriptures as all must nedes be answerable that is brought against truth and so they find which reade our writings But because that way to reade all is long we tel such as would not make so great a iorney that they may be sure without more trauell that not to be of God the reuealer of all trueth which Heretikes held against the Catholiks as also that which the diuels might hold against the Apostles And the more because we reade that Christ and his Apostles cōmaunded the diuell to silence Luc. 4. Act. 16. when also he confessed trueth for proceeding out of his lying mouth it might as Fulke saith wel the sooner be discredited Whereas in our case by the saying of the Protestantes he commaunded the diuell and his Heretikes to teach the trueth and the Fathers to silence or rather not to silence but suffering them to resiste the trueth all that they could Pu. 422.421 But he can aunswere one question with another Why was it first reueiled sayth he to the Arrians in Councell that the Article of Christes discent into hell was meete to be added to the Crede which was not reueiled to so many godly men as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Answere me if you can He speaketh so of this matter without any quoting of Author as if it were a thing notoriously knowen Belyke it is receiued among them who would put it out of the Crede againe as a principle of their Aristotle and I who reade not their bookes but with leaue and for necessitie am not so well acquainted in their mysteries Perhaps a friends ghesse of mine is true that they say so because they find it in some Arrian Crede that is recorded in the Ecclesiasticall Storie Theo. li. 2. cap. 21. For it is found in déede in Theodorete that the false Nicene Arrian Synode saide in their newe Crede Crucified dead and buried descended into hell whom hell it selfe did tremble at According to the ydle or rather hypocriticall diligence of Heretikes who vse in Credes or confessions of their false doctrines to infarse some nedeles truethes Whereas the Catholike Nicene Councell thought it ynough in their Crede to repeate and explicate onely those Articles of the Apostles common Crede of which Articles Heretiks had as then made question Is not this then a substantiall cause to say that it was firste reuealed to the Arrians to put it in the Créede whereas it was before in the Apostles Créede Though also if it were true that the Arrians did first put it into the Créede what is that to our case They had not the Catholikes in that against them yea it was a common Article of the Catholikes faith The Articles of the Arrian Aerius were not such As also the Article agaynst Rebaptization which Article some Heretikes perhaps helde right when S. Cyprian and some other Catholike Bishoppes were deceyued in it But yet the Pope with the rest of Christendome helde it as they had it of the Apostles What is this to your Articles which onely olde wicked Heretikes did holde we saye against all Catholikes They were fitte Articles for Heretikes at all times but neuer for Catholikes as at this time also for Anabaptistes Seruetians or Arrians Suenkfeldians Pur. 421. all the others that you count Heretikes as well as we doe sayth D. Allen because they are their inheritance as well as yours descending from your common father Luther But for that wound also you haue a plaister if not to heale it
yet to couer it as you hope Ar. 96. Pur. 423. For there were manye more Heresies at the firste preaching of the Gospell in and immediatelye after the Apostles time then at the laste restoring of the publike preaching thereof vnto the worlde in our dayes when the Gentiles continued constant and the Iewes without schisme in their errours This is iumpe as I saye in my 35. Demaund That you be not able to alleage anye excuse for your diuision into so many Sectes which the Arrians Donatistes and other olde Heresies might not as well alleage for excuse of their diuisions Aug. de agone Christi ca. 29. and so when S. Augustine noteth that as Donatus went about to diuide Christ euen so he him selfe is of his owne Donatistes diuided euery day into sundry pieces to tell him as you do vs that also in the Apostles time the professours of Christianitie were rent and torne into an hundred Sectes and Heresies You want but that whiche is soone had we know figures and prophetes of another olde Testament and miracles of healing the diseased of all sortes of raysing the dead and such other petite matters to make demonstration that Donatus then or Luther now is another Christ and then we must be forced to graunte that you are as the Apostles and they as you And yet for all that I thinke we should not be forced to graunt that you haue the trueth but rather it would folow per impossibile that the Apostles had not the truth But it is well that the Apostles were not the cause of those Sectes and Diuisions no more then we now their heires be cause of your Sectes and Diuisions Your owne Diuiding of Christ whiche is the Apostles and ours by Senioritie in right possession is the meritorious cause of them as S. Augustine told the Donatistes And the efficient cause is your denying of all Catholike Principles and holding of Onely Scripture and that but so much as you liste of your owne heades and to be interpreted by euery ones priuate fantasie which you call the Spirite Finally your Articles do fitte them all very well in so much that their Sectiones lightly be not made by going from any Article of yours but from some more Articles of ours as the Anabaptistes from baptizing of Infantes from lawfull swearing c. If the case had bene thus with the Apostles the world had neuer beléeued them Ar. 27. 40 They neuer afore now Next after this I note that the Protestantes were neuer in the world before our time Fulk saith With the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes we consent whollie in all pointes of Doctrine No not in one point at all vnles it be such a one as with vs also you consent in as I haue shewed cap. 8. and much lesse wholly in all pointes He saith further With Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus c. Gildas we consent though not wholly in all pointes of Doctrine yet in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith Neither with them in any one pointe in maner aforesaid as I haue shewed cap. 9. Howbeit in this your owne saying you confesse my purpose For Vigilantius Iouinianus c. did muche more agrée with them in the cheefe and most substantiall Articles which you meane and yet were not of their Church could not be nor would not be If you say that you were then in those Heretikes Vigilantius and Iouinianus for I trow you will not say that you were in Aerius the Arrian nor in the Manichées nor Pelagians though they were your parteners in some pointes as we saw erewhile in the 38. Dem. that is a plaine confession that you were not in the Church of the Fathers Yet also that you were not in those Heretikes is plaine by this because they held no more of yours then the Fathers noted them for who would haue noted them also for denying prayer for the dead as they noted Aerius for it if they had denyed it as he did If you say that you were in that Church which went out of sight an 607. as you say here cap. 2. it is a chimera onely of your owne imagination you can not shewe any companie of Christians that departed from that Pope Bonifacius the thyrd and his adherents much lesse that they were Protestantes You come lower to Bertramus Marsilius de Padua Ar. 27.30.33.34.75.77.95.97 Pur. 420.341.344.345 Ioannes de Gauduno al. de Gaudano you call him Bruno Andeganensis Wickleue Iohn Hus and Hierome of Praga with their Bohemians c. as Berengarius Apostolici Waldo with his French Waldenses and Pauperes de Lugduno and Albigenses the Grecian Image breakers the maried Canons somtime in England and Emperours that defended their maried Priestes Of these you say as you did of the Fathers We consent with them in the chiefe and most substantiall articles of faith sauing that in one place where you passe some of them ouer with silence least we should obiect that they held with you but in some one or two pointes Wal. tom 3. ca. 7.8.9 Melan. epi. ad Fred. Micon there you say But Wickleue I wene you will not denie but he was of our Church and Religion Against this ignoraunt wene of yours the Catholike may reade Thomas Waldensis that excellent writer our Countreyman the Protestant may reade Philip Melancthon who report sundrie articles of Wickleues which you your selfe will detest namely humaine merites as Pelagius helde them in so much that Waldensis doth exhort Catholikes to say at euery worde the grace of God as nowe we sée vsed in our language because Wickleue did teache his to haue alwayes in their mouthes merita propria their owne merites And Melancthon saieth Prorsus non intellexit nec tenuit fidei iustitiam Verely he did not vnderstande nor holde the iustification of faith He nameth fiue other pointes of like weight and besides them all Deprehendi in eo multa alia errata ex quibus iudicium de eius spiritu fieri potest Looking in Wicklefe I found in him many other errors whereby one may iudge of his spirite Of Hus the like is written by Luther him self Luther apud Roffen ar 30. Non recte faciunt qui me Hussitam vocant Non enim mecum ille sentit They do not well that call me an Hussite For he is not of my iudgement as there he exemplifieth in the Popes Supremacie c. And how say you to the seditious article as Melancthon calleth it of both Wickleue and Hus Con. Constan Sess 8. art 15.17 touching ciuill dominion that it is lost immediately if the King doe fall into mortall sinne Hauing shewed this in them whom you thought your selfe most sure of I néede not to goe particularly through the rest which otherwise and if it were not too long I myght easilye doe to your confusion For what a poore and fowle shifte is this of yours Whether Apostolici in Bernardes time were sclaundered
speake All is done still as it was in the Primitiue Church with the selfe same authoritie and with the same affection and discretion if the Iudges doe not swarue from the Churches Lawes 43. Succession Motiue 22. Article 8. Consequently in the next Demaund I say that the true Church must be descended by lineall and continuall Succession from the Apostles and that our Church is so descended and that the Protestantes Church is not so descended About this Fulke doth many wayes contradict himselfe as I will shewe in the next Chapter because he can not tell what to say vnto it Yet to helpe him as much as may be and as I doe vse euery where to frame his arguments to his purpose and to bring them into some order He may say two things first that they may haue the true Church although they haue not Succession secondly that we may lacke the true Church although we haue succession To the first he may referre these words of his owne vnto D. Allen Ar. 26. You are neuer able to proue that any suche orderly Succession according to persons and places was promised to the Church that we should shewe you the performance thereof in our Church Whether that can not be proued my first Demaund here will shew which declareth that S. Augustine hath already proued out of the Scriptures for vs that the Churche should beginne at Hierusalem and from thence grow ouer all Nations continually to the worldes ende as also with our eyes we sée that vnto this our time it hath done And euen the place which you goe about to answere proueth it playnly Continuall Succession of persons in the ministerie I say with D. Allen euen vntill Christes comming agayne Ephe. 4. Christus ascendens c. Christ ascending gaue giftes to men some to be Apostles some Euangelistes some Prophets some Pastors and Teachers to the completing of the holy for the worke of ministerie for the building of the body of Christ Donec occurramus omnes c. Vntill we meete all in the vnitie of faith and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God in a perfect man in the measure of the age plenitudinis Christi of the fulnesse of Christ that is Ephe. 1. of his Church He sayth so expresly vntill the finishing of the Church But that you would not sée you thought better to cauill and say The offices of the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoynted to continue alwayes in the Churche but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the world Why doe you not say the like of the other two Pastors and Teachers if they at the least were appointed to continue alwayes you sée a Succession of Persons And how can Saint Paules saying be otherwise verifyed vnlesse some of those fiue shoulde alwayes continue if not all as the wordes doe rather import For you séeme to deceyue your selfe by thinking that none are Apostles but the twelue none Euangelistes but the foure none Prophetes but the foretellers of things to come Whereas in déede all the Successors of Saint Peter are Apostles as I noted in the .28 Demaund and also whosoeuer else be the first conuerters of any Nation and all the expounders of the Euangelistes and Prophetes are Euangelistes and Prophets which you will not denie if you haue any skill in vnderstanding the Scriptures No difference being betwéene these offices in the beginning and nowe but onely that then they were giuen by miracle and now by order As touching the second you graunt our Church to haue such continuall Succession and inferre therevpon Ergo it is not the true Church here Cap. 2. Pag. 5. because the true Church should at some time or other be driuen out of sight Wherevnto I haue answered Cap. 8. Pag. 144. shewing that you doe fouly abuse the Scripture to that false conclusion and namely that the time of the Churches flying into the wildernesse is not yet come Againe you argue If it be sufficient Ar. 27. or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeeded in all ages in the Bishops Sees in an outward face of the Church the Greeke Churche is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession What of that but onely this that they therfore may better claime the Churche then you And yet in trueth these Hereticall and Schismaticall Gréekes can no more shew Succession then you For your false Bishops are now in the Sées of C. Pole of B. Bonner of B. Therlebie c. and yet I trowe you will not thereby claime Succession So these later Gréekes haue not Succession but from them onely who beganne this Separation of theirs and their heresies about the H. Ghostes procéeding c. For in Saint Gregories time whiche is ynough they were in vnitie Nam de Constantinopolitana Ecclesia Greg. li. 7. Epist 63. quis eam dubitet Sedi Apostolicae esse subiectam c. For as touching the Churche of Constantinople saieth he who can doubt that it is subiect to the See Apostolike which thing both our most clement Lord the Emperour and our brother Eusebius Bishop of the same Citie doe dayly professe 44. Apostolike Church Motiue 23. Next vnto this I say that it is we not the Protestants which beleue the Apostolike church because we beleue the Romane church which hath the See of the two most glorious Apostles S. Peter S. Paul which was ment by those Fathers who in their Coūcell added to the article of the créede the word Apostolike therby to specify the better the Catholike Church against such heretikes as durst challenge to themselues the Catholike Church but had no colour to challenge the Romane Church namely that Bishop of Rome which sat in the Apostles chaire that is which orderly and canonically succéeded the Apostles For otherwise the Donatistes and some others we know had their mocke bishop at Rome in a corner whom they sent thither out of other countries to lurke there for a stale to their simple people which thing among others might cause the Fathers in their exposition of the Créede to say rather the Apostolike Church then the Romane Church Ar. 96. Vnto this Fulke hath two shiftes First he saith You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome And then where is al your bragges of Apostolike Sea and succession c Sée here cap. 2. pag. 3. how he confesseth that S. Augustine and many other of the Fathers did likewise alleadge against Heretikes the succession of that Apostolike Sée And therfore consider to whom and for whom it is that now he saith And then where is all your bragges c I would not desire a better cause to discredite quite these absurd Protestantes then that they deny S. Peter to haue béen euer at Rome For who knoweth not that all the auncient writers are against them therein
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
this Heretike pretended against the Churche or against any thing of hers I haue answered it all and euery whit omitting nothing to my knowledge and so shall be able with the grace of God and also readie to answere him hereafter also if he harden his heart yet further to make more resistance against the trueth Counselling him rather yea and beséeching him in the bowels of the mercies of Christ to be better to his owne soule and to so innumerable other soules redéemed with the most precious bloud of Christe then to stande any longer against the Church of Christ to the damnation of so many soules specially hauing neither any text of Scripture nor any other authoritie Catholike against the same Churche as I haue here most euidently declared But if he list still without cause to blaspheme the Holy Citie and Tabernacle of God let him knowe Apoc. 13.22.3 and all such as he is that his name will be stricken out of it to his eternall confusion when our names that through the mercie of God be of it shall before all the worlde to our vnspeakable glorie appeare written in it together and in the booke of life of the Lambe and Sonne of God to whom be glorie in the Churche throughout all ages for euer and euer Amen FINIS The Printer to the Reader In two thinges I am to desire thée curteous and friendly Reader to extend thy accustomed gentlenes in perusing and reading of this godly worke One is that thou wilt friendly correct with thy penne these faults and what others els thou shalt therin espie committed in the Printing for although I haue had great care and bene very diligent in the correcting thereof yet because my Compositor was a straunger and ignorant in our Englishe tongue and Orthographi◠some faultes are passed vnamended of me The other that thou wilte not like the worse of this learned worke because it hath not the varietie of letters which is requisite in such a booke and as the Printers in England do customably vse my abilitie was not otherwise to do it and hauing these Characters out of England I could not ioyne them together with any others and so was forst to vse one Character both for the words of Fulke and for all Allegations Remember that when man can not do as he would he must do as he may Iohn Lyon The Errata Cap. 3. Fol. 11. for man reade men Pag. 80. for anima reade omnia Pag. 54. for anima reade anna Pag. 66 for obnaxius reade obnoxius for lanacri lauacri Pag. 190. for milenis reade milleuis Hag. 355. for Ephata reade Epheta for Ephphata Ephpheta ¶ The contentes of this Booke at large ¶ Chapter 1. Fulke confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation ¶ Chapter 2. He confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeares after Christ and the knowen members thereof ¶ Chapter 3. He confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainly with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the true Church may erre also hath erred The first part of this Chapter That the true Church may erre The second part That the true Church did also erre that in the same pointes as we now doe erre in i. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together ii As touching Vigilantius Inuocation of Saintes by it selfe iij. As touching Iouinian of Fasting of Virginities merite of Votaries Mariage iiij As touching Ceremonies v. As touching Purgatorie and praying for the dead 1. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it 2. What he saith of the whole Church in some of those times 3. To what origin he confesseth the Doctors to referre it to wit vnto Scripture and Tradition of the Apostles 4. He cōtrariwise feareth not nor basheth not to say they had it from the diuell and his limmes vj. As touching the Popes primacie ¶ Chapter 4. He chargeth the said Primitiue true Church also with sundrie errors wherewith he neither doth nor will nor can charge vs. ¶ Chapter 5. What reason he rendreth why they in those auncient times had the true Church notwithstanding these their errors ¶ Chapter 6. An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherewith he hath charged the Church of the first 600. yeares afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times His zeale in answering for Caluine and others beeing in deede of his Church The first part of this Chapter Concerning the errors that he layeth cap. 3. part 2. both to the Fathers and to vs. 1. Of Crosse and Images 2. Of Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes 3. Of Abstinence from fleshmeate and from Mariage 4. Of Ceremonies 5. Of Sacrifice And for the dead Purgatorie And Purgatorie fire Prayer for the dead And Oblations for the dead Beeres to carie home the corpses The Second Parte Concerning the errors that he layed cap. 4. to the Fathers not to vs. 1. Touching the Heresies which were in their times 2. Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus 3. Touching Second Mariages And S. Ierome 4. Touching praying to the Sonne and to the Holy ghost 5. Of ministring the B. Sacrament to Infantes The third part Concerning the errors that he layeth to the Church of later time and not of old 1. Touching the bodies of Angels 2. Touching the Popes Superioritie ouer the Councell 3. Touching the Constance Councels presumption 4. Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture ¶ Chapter 7. That he hath no other shift against our manifold Euidēces so cleere they be but the name of Onely Scripture as well about ech cōtrouersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe how timerous he maketh vs how bold he bereth himselfe thervpon The first parte How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidencies in the Controuersies that are betwene vs. 1. Against the Rule to know Heresie by finding the first authors and theire old Heresies By Antiquitie By names 2. Against the Apostles Traditions 3 Against the true Churches Authoritie that is against her practise and her Iudgement Against her Councels Against her Chiefe Pastors Determinations and their whole Succession 4 Against the Fathers both in generall and in particuler The second part Being tolde that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning How there likewise against al expositors he taketh the same exceptiō of only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture The third part What he meaneth by his Only Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sense of Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie and saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevppon
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie