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scripture_n allege_v place_n prove_v 2,569 5 5.5703 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A88947 A modest & brotherly ansvver to Mr. Charles Herle his book, against the independency of churches. Wherein his foure arguments for the government of synods over particular congregations, are friendly examined, and clearly answered. Together, with Christian and loving animadversions upon sundry other observable passages in the said booke. All tending to declare the true use of synods, and the power of congregationall churches in the points of electing and ordaining their owne officers, and censuring their offendors. By Richard Mather teacher of the Church at Dorchester; and William Tompson pastor of the Church at Braintree in New-England. Sent from thence after the assembly of elders were dissolved that last met at Cambridg to debate matters about church-government. Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.; Tompson, William, d. 1666. 1644 (1644) Wing M1274; Thomason E37_19; ESTC R16954 50,642 62

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therefore_o if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o this_o ordination_n belong_v only_o to_o a_o synod_n yet_o the_o question_n be_v not_o of_o one_o part_n but_o of_o the_o whole_a jurisdiction_n be_v not_o conclude_v thereby_o nevertheless_o we_o be_v willing_a to_o consider_v what_o be_v say_v about_o this_o particular_a and_o therefore_o our_o answer_n be_v distinct_o thus_o 1_o that_o if_o a_o congregation_n have_v elder_n of_o it_o own_o than_o when_o other_o officer_n be_v to_o be_v ordain_v in_o that_o church_n such_o ordination_n be_v to_o be_v perform_v by_o the_o imposition_n of_o the_o hand_n of_o those_o elder_n this_o we_o never_o deny_v and_o a_o good_a deal_n of_o your_o proof_n do_v conclude_v no_o more_o for_o what_o if_o the_o presbytery_n at_o ephesus_n do_v lay_v hand_n upon_o timothy_n 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o and_o the_o presbytery_n at_o antioch_n upon_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n act._n 13._o 1_o 2._o which_o be_v two_o of_o your_o proof_n this_o may_v evince_v that_o in_o 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4._o 4._o and_o afterward_o abundant_o large_a it_o be_v impossible_a all_o the_o member_n shall_v meet_v but_o by_o way_n of_o distribution_n into_o several_a congregation_n pag._n 12._o answ._n how_o large_a soever_o that_o church_n be_v in_o those_o place_n you_o allege_v yet_o if_o the_o scripture_n say_v they_o do_v meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n than_o we_o must_v believe_v it_o be_v possible_a for_o they_o so_o to_o do_v and_o that_o as_o they_o be_v but_o one_o church_n so_o they_o be_v but_o one_o congregation_n now_o the_o text_n be_v plain_a first_o of_o all_o that_o when_o they_o be_v but_o 120._o they_o all_o meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n for_o otherwise_o how_o can_v peter_n stand_v up_o in_o the_o midst_n of_o they_o and_o make_v a_o speech_n to_o they_o all_o about_o the_o election_n of_o another_o apostle_n in_o the_o room_n of_o judas_n as_o he_o be_v record_v to_o have_v do_v act_n 115._o next_o of_o all_o when_o 3000_o be_v add_v to_o they_o act_n 2._o yet_o all_o that_o multitude_n before_o they_o be_v convert_v do_v all_o come_v together_o in_o one_o place_n vers._n 6._o and_o peter_n stand_v up_o lift_v up_o his_o voice_n and_o speak_v unto_o they_o all_o vers._n 14._o and_o when_o they_o be_v convert_v both_o they_o and_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o believer_n be_v not_o yet_o so_o many_o but_o the_o multitude_n of_o they_o be_v all_o together_o vers._n 44._o and_o continue_v daily_o with_o one_o accord_n in_o the_o temple_n vers._n 46._o and_o when_o after_o this_o the_o lord_n add_v daily_o to_o the_o church_n such_o as_o shall_v be_v save_v the_o number_n of_o the_o man_n be_v about_o 5000._o act_n 4._o 4._o yet_o all_o this_o company_n do_v still_o meet_v together_o in_o one_o
in_o the_o last_o place_n must_v needs_o consist_v of_o seven_o person_n or_o more_o as_o for_o that_o speech_n of_o our_o saviour_n where_o he_o speak_v of_o 2_o or_o 3_o gather_v together_o in_o his_o name_n mat._n 18._o 20._o he_o do_v not_o thereby_o acknowledge_v such_o a_o small_a number_n to_o be_v a_o church_n but_o fetch_v a_o argument_n from_o thence_o as_o from_o the_o lesser_a or_o less_o probable_a to_o prove_v the_o firm_a and_o inviolable_a authority_n of_o the_o church_n and_o her_o censure_n of_o which_o he_o have_v speak_v before_o v._n 18._o as_o if_o he_o shall_v say_v if_o two_o agree_v together_o upon_o earth_n shall_v be_v hear_v in_o whatsoever_o they_o shall_v ask_v and_o if_o i_o be_v present_a with_o two_o or_o three_o gather_v in_o my_o name_n then_o much_o more_o shall_v the_o whole_a church_n who_o be_v a_o great_a number_n and_o a_o more_o solemn_a assembly_n be_v hear_v in_o their_o prayer_n and_o have_v christ_n presence_n in_o the_o midst_n of_o they_o to_o bind_v and_o lose_v in_o heaven_n what_o they_o shall_v bind_v or_o lose_v in_o earth_n but_o the_o former_a be_v true_a vers._n 19_o 20_o therefore_o the_o latter_a be_v true_a also_o verse_n 18._o and_o for_o excommunication_n ordination_n and_o censure_n there_o be_v nothing_o in_o scripture_n nor_o prove_v in_o this_o discourse_n of_o you_o that_o these_o matter_n belong_v only_o to_o a_o synod_n and_o not_o to_o a_o particular_a congreation_n yea_o we_o conceive_v it_o will_v not_o be_v easy_a for_o any_o man_n whatsoever_o to_o prove_v that_o synod_n and_o they_o only_o have_v power_n to_o ordain_v officer_n and_o to_o excommunicate_v offender_n and_o till_o this_o be_v prove_v the_o independent_n as_o you_o call_v they_o need_v not_o to_o relinquish_v their_o judgement_n and_o practice_n in_o these_o particular_n sure_o it_o be_v that_o synod_n in_o act_n 15._o do_v neither_o meddle_v with_o ordination_n nor_o excommunication_n but_o only_o determine_v the_o controversy_n about_o circumcision_n and_o give_v rule_n for_o practice_n to_o be_v observe_v of_o the_o believe_a gentile_n for_o avoid_v of_o offence_n among_o the_o jew_n we_o acknowledge_v that_o where_o there_o be_v no_o consociation_n or_o neighbourhood_n of_o congregation_n or_o single_a church_n whereby_o they_o may_v with_o conveniency_n be_v aid_v to_o each_o other_o and_o whereto_o the_o particular_n may_v have_v recourse_n there_o a_o single_a congregation_n must_v not_o be_v deny_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n if_o you_o acknowledge_v thus_o much_o which_o yet_o be_v no_o more_o than_o truth_n require_v to_o be_v acknowledge_v and_o wherein_o we_o for_o our_o part_n full_o concur_v with_o you_o than_o we_o suppose_v a_o man_n may_v improve_v this_o grant_n of_o you_o to_o a_o confirmation_n of_o that_o independency_n of_o church_n which_o you_o plead_v against_o and_o to_o a_o disprove_n of_o a_o good_a part_n of_o that_o authority_n of_o synod_n which_o you_o will_v establish_v for_o if_o a_o church_n that_o have_v no_o neighbourhood_n of_o other_o church_n have_v power_n of_o jurisdiction_n entire_o within_o itself_o as_o here_o you_o do_v acknowledge_v then_o first_o let_v it_o be_v consider_v whence_o such_o a_o church_n have_v such_o power_n and_o see_v if_o that_o ground_n will_v not_o reach_v to_o prove_v the_o like_a power_n in_o other_o church_n also_o now_o we_o suppose_v none_o will_v deny_v but_o such_o a_o church_n have_v this_o authority_n or_o power_n by_o the_o gift_n of_o christ_n and_o the_o liberty_n which_o he_o have_v grant_v to_o every_o church_n as_o it_o be_v a_o church_n which_o we_o have_v rather_o express_v in_o doctor_n ames_n his_o word_n than_o in_o our_o own_o the_o power_n itself_o namely_o in_o reprove_v scandal_n and_o purge_v out_o the_o wicked_a of_o right_a or_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o first_o act_n can_v be_v separate_v from_o a_o true_a church_n because_o it_o flow_v immediate_o and_o necessary_o from_o its_o very_a essence_n for_o it_o be_v contain_v in_o that_o covenant_n whereby_o believer_n be_v gather_v into_o a_o church_n cas._n cons._n lib._n 4._o cap._n 24._o q._n 4._o now_o if_o this_o be_v so_o that_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n do_v immediate_o and_o necessary_o flow_v from_o the_o very_a essence_n of_o a_o church_n and_o so_o belong_v to_o a_o church_n as_o it_o be_v a_o church_n than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o this_o power_n must_v not_o be_v grant_v to_o be_v in_o such_o a_o church_n as_o have_v no_o neighbour_n church_n and_o be_v deny_v unto_o one_o that_o have_v because_o a_o church_n that_o have_v neighbour_n be_v a_o church_n and_o have_v the_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n as_o true_o as_o that_o which_o have_v none_o power_n of_o jurisdiction_n flow_v immediate_o from_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o church_n belong_v indifferent_o to_o all_o church_n to_o one_o as_o much_o as_o to_o another_o without_o respect_n of_o what_o neighbour_n they_o have_v whether_o many_o or_o few_o whether_o any_o or_o none_o second_o let_v it_o be_v consider_v also_o what_o be_v the_o end_n and_o use_v of_o the_o consociation_n and_o neighbourhood_n of_o church_n and_o the_o same_o truth_n will_v thence_o appear_v also_o which_o neighbourhood_n where_o it_o be_v afford_v be_v from_o the_o benefit_n of_o church_n but_o not_o for_o their_o hindrance_n and_o loss_n and_o therefore_o it_o may_v be_v helpful_a by_o cast_v in_o more_o light_n but_o can_v abridge_v they_o of_o any_o power_n which_o they_o have_v before_o when_o doctor_n ames_n medul_fw-la theol._n l._n 1._o c._n 39_o sect._n 27._o have_v say_v that_o the_o combination_n of_o church_n into_o class_n and_o synod_n do_v neither_o constitute_v a_o new_a form_n of_o the_o church_n nor_o ought_v by_o any_o mean_n to_o take_v away_o or_o impair_v that_o liberty_n and_o power_n which_o christ_n have_v leave_v unto_o his_o church_n sith_o it_o serve_v only_o for_o the_o direct_v and_o further_n of_o the_o same_o what_o say_v mr._n paget_n hereunto_o this_o say_v he_o we_o willing_o grant_v paget_n defence_n pa._n 107._o now_o if_o this_o must_v be_v grant_v than_o that_o dependency_n of_o church_n and_o that_o power_n of_o synod_n which_o you_o plead_v for_o must_v not_o be_v grant_v for_o let_v a_o church_n have_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n before_o she_o have_v any_o neighbour_a church_n and_o be_v deprive_v of_o the_o power_n when_o god_n send_v such_o neighbour_n and_o by_o this_o mean_n she_o sustain_v loss_n by_o have_v neighbour_n and_o come_v to_o be_v in_o this_o respect_n in_o worse_a condition_n than_o when_o she_o have_v none_o which_o be_v against_o the_o true_a intent_n and_o use_n of_o the_o consociation_n of_o church_n moreover_o if_o this_o grant_n of_o you_o stand_v good_a then_o what_o shall_v become_v of_o that_o which_o be_v intimate_v pag._n 6._o and_o pa._n 10._o as_o a_o reason_n against_o the_o independency_n of_o congregation_n where_o you_o say_v that_o it_o be_v against_o the_o very_a light_n of_o nature_n that_o the_o adverse_a party_n be_v the_o sole_a judge_n and_o party_n too_o in_o the_o cause_n and_o that_o it_o be_v against_o all_o equity_n that_o the_o offend_a party_n mean_v the_o congregation_n shall_v be_v the_o sole_a and_o final_a judge_n of_o the_o offence_n sure_o we_o can_v think_v that_o there_o can_v be_v such_o a_o case_n imagine_v wherein_o you_o will_v grant_v it_o lawful_a for_o a_o single_a congregation_n to_o do_v that_o which_o be_v against_o all_o equity_n and_o the_o very_a light_n of_o nature_n and_o yet_o you_o grant_v that_o the_o case_n may_v be_v such_o that_o a_o single_a congregation_n may_v have_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o which_o seem_v to_o we_o plain_o to_o prove_v that_o for_o a_o congregation_n to_o be_v so_o independent_a as_o to_o be_v the_o final_a judge_n of_o offence_n within_o itself_o be_v not_o against_o all_o equity_n nor_o against_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n as_o be_v intimate_v by_o you_o in_o the_o page_n aforementioned_a but_o sith_o in_o one_o place_n you_o grant_v that_o in_o some_o case_n a_o congregation_n may_v have_v entireness_n of_o jurisdiction_n within_o itself_o and_o in_o another_o place_n do_v seem_v to_o imply_v that_o it_o be_v against_o all_o equity_n and_o the_o light_n of_o nature_n that_o they_o shall_v be_v grant_v we_o for_o our_o part_n be_v not_o able_a to_o discern_v how_o these_o thing_n do_v stand_v together_o but_o that_o too_o much_o may_v not_o be_v make_v of_o the_o grant_n of_o you_o you_o do_v qualify_v it_o in_o your_o subsequent_a word_n wherein_o you_o say_v that_o this_o be_v a_o case_n extraordinary_a and_o fall_v not_o within_o the_o compass_n of_o the_o question_n which_o be_v about_o the_o ordinary_a rule_n of_o church-government_n whereunto_o we_o answer_v two_o thing_n 1_o that_o