whome the papistes counte no parte of their church but schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all vnto the profession of the name of Christ which yet continue in their religion being neither the true faith nor yet popish religion As for the popish church as it is certeine that it hath peruerted and corrupted all partes of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion so it shal be harde for the papistes to proue that it hath conuerted any Nation from Gentility to the popish religion except some partes of Germanie and them by force of armes rather than by preaching and reaching as appeareth by the conuersion of Liuonia Anno Domini 1200. of Prussia Anno Domini 1254. and of Lithuania Anno Domini 1386. wherefore I conclude that seeing I haue shewed that our Church holding the true doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all nations to true religion and that the popish church hath not conuerted any people to true religion nor all people to the profession of the name of Christ this chalenger whosoeuer he be do the recant The second article conteyneth 4. demandes 1 I aske of him what Church it was which hath induced the Christian people through the whole worlde to geue most humble credit in all points to the holy bookes of the Byble I Aunswere it was the Church of Christ and not the Popish church which hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleued of all true Christians where soeuer they be although it be the office of the holy Ghost to open the hartes of men and to forme them that they may beleue the scripture to be true like as it is the office of the scripture or worde of God to trie and examine whether it be the spirite of God that perswadeth vs to beleue any thing so the spirite beareth witnesse to the worde and the worde to the spirite As for the popish church it coulde not induce the Christian people to geue credit to the scripture in all pointes because she is contrarie to the scripture in many pointes and euen in the cheefest pointes of Christian Religion namely in pointes concerning the glorie of God and the saluation of mankinde geuing the glory of God to dead men and dumbe Images and denying the mercy of God pourchased by the onely sacrifice of Christes death to be the onely cause of mans saluation Finally seeing it is manifest by the aunswere to the first article that the popish church did not conuerte all nations to the profession of the Christian faith it is euident thereby that the popish church did not induce all them that are called Christians to geue credit to the bookes of the holy Bible as this chalenger woulde haue it to be thought 2 VVhat Church hath had the discerning seuering of them from other writinges of all sortes THe Church of Christ hath not an absolute authority to allow or refuse bookes of the scripture but a iudgment to discerne true writinge from counterfaicts the word of God of infallible verity from the writing of men which might erre this iudgement she hath not of her selfe but of the holy Ghost as for the popish Church it can not be said to haue this iudgemēt of discerning the scripture of God from other writings not only because she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonical bookes of the scripture from the Apocrypha writings as appereth by receauing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. but also because she is so presumptuous as to compel men to beleue that Customes and traditions writinges of doctors decrees of Popes and Councells are equall with the authoritie of God his worde yea are of force to alter and change the lawe of God and the institution of Christ set forth vnto vs in the scripture And although she boast that she receaueth all the bookes of scripture yet this proueth no more that she is the Church of Christ than was the churches of the Arrians Donatistes Nouatians Euthychans other heretikes which receiued the Bible as well as the Popish church 3 VVhat Church hath had the custodie of them and most safely hath preserued them for the necessary vse of God his people and from the corruption of aduersaries as well of Iewes as heretikes of all sortes THe prouidence of God hath alwayes preserued the Scripture both from the violence of tyrants from the falshoode of heretikes and hath neuer suffred the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse thereof But the popish church hath not kept the scripture for the necessary vse of the people which hath so kept it in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse much lesse the necessary vse thereof wherefore if this be a note of the Catholike Church to kepe the worde of God for the necessarie vse of God his people it is plaine that the popish church is not the Catholike Church which hath kept the scripture so that God his people coulde haue no vse thereof And if the only custodie of the scripture from corruption of heretikes be a sure note of the Church why is not the Greeke Church the Catholike Church which vnto this day hath kept the scripture as safely as the popish church why are not other Estern Churches of Asia which neuer acknowledged the Pope or popish religion true Churches which likewise haue preserued the scripture as we haue seen of late that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at themperours charges for the encrease of Christian faith among them And finally why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully than euer the Papistes And because they boast of safe preseruing of the scriptures all men that are learned in the tongues can testifie in how corrupt a Latin translation they haue kept the scriptures both of the olde and of the new Testament 4 And let the Protestant declare to me that their Congregation hath had from time to time or euer had right herein or any other Church sauing the Catholike Church and I recant OVr Congregation which is the body of Christ hath euer had both right and possession of the inestimable treasure of the word of Christ her heade as appeareth by this that our Church and Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in it acknowledgeth that all thinges profitable to saluation are sufficiently conteined in it and finally in all thinges submitteth her selfe to the iudgemēt of it But the popish church which beleueth many thinges contrarie to the scripture teacheth many thinges beside the scripture necessary to saluation and refuseth to haue her faith doctrine and ceremonies to be iudged by the scripture neither hath neither euer had any right to the scripture though she haue neuer so many bookes of them in possession Wherefore these thinges considered this chalenger
the blessed martyr noteth certeine conuersies in his dayes who thought they had much wronge to be further burdened with penaunce for their fall more theÌ„ the returne to God againe he toucheth the maners of our time very neare his words sounding thus Before their sinnes fully purged before the confession of their faulte made before their consciencies by the priest and sacrifice be cleansed before the ire and indignation of God be pacified and past they thinke all is well and make boast thereof But he instructeth them in the same place better as followeth Confesse your selues brethren whilest ye are in this life and whilest the remission and satisfaction by the priestes apointement is acceptable Let vs turne vnto God with all our hartes expressing the penauÌ„ce for our sinnes by singular griefe and sorow let vs call for mercy let vs prostrate our selues before God let our heuinesse of hearte satisfie him let vs with fasting weeping and howling appeace his wrath Whome for that he is our louing father we acknowledge to be mercifull and yet because he beareth the maiestie of a iudge he is for iustice much to be feared To a deepe and a greuous wounde a long and sharpe sauluing must be accepted Exceding earnestly thou must pray thou must passe ouer the remnaunt of thy time with lamentable complaintes thou must for thy soft bedde take harde earth and ashes and romble thy selfe in sackecloth for the losse of Christes vesture refuse all apparell after the receite of the Deuils food chuese earnest fasting and by diligent applying thy selfe to good workes and almes deedes purge thy sinne and deliuer thy soule from death 3 Here he asketh leaue of the Reader to be somwhat long in rehearsing the opinions of diuerse doctors to confirme his former falshod but he should rather haue asked leaue of the doctors them selues to belye them so beastly to racke their sayings so violently farre from their purpose and meanings And to beginne with Origen what doth he in that place by him alleged but exhort men vnto harty and earnest repentaunce by humbling them selues before God and acknowledging their sinnes which holy Scripture testifieth to be the way to preuent the wrath of god And what his iudgement was concerning satisfaction for sinnes he declareth sufficiently in his 3. booke vpon the Epist. to the Rom. cap. 3. where often times he repeateth that a man is iustified before God by faith onely affirming that in forgeuenes of sinnes God respecteth no workes but faith onely as he proueth by the parable that our Sauiour vsed vnto Simon the Pharise Luke 7. and aunswereth also those obiections which euen the Papistes at this day make against vs for teaching that faith only doth iustifie vs in the sight of god S. Cyprian as I haue sufficiently shewed before calleth such as had fallen in time of persecution from the profession of christianity to harty repentaunce and to testifie the same by submitting them selues humbly vnto the discipline of the Church But it is straunge to see how vnconsideratly M. Allen allegeth his places that oftentimes they conteine more playne matter against him then apparant profe by violent wrasting can be wroÌ„g out from them I maruaile M. Allen either seeth not him selfe or thinketh that other men can not espye that Cyprian exhorteth men to confession of their offences in this life where onely satisfaction and remission made by the Priestes is acceptable vnto the lord If men can not satisfie nor Priest remit but whilest men are in this life then farewell satisfaction for the dead and purgatory 4 So doth S. Augustine correct the error of such as thinke the chaunge of life with out all cogitatioÌ„ or care of their offenses past to be sufficient for mans perfect repaire and reconciliation to our Lorde againe It is not sufficient sayth he to amende our maners and turne backe from our miâ—dedes vnlesse we satisfie before God for them which we haue already committed by dolour of penauÌ„ce by humble sighes grones by the sacrifice of a coÌ„trite harte working with almes dedes And in this sense againe he vttoreth this comfortable rule Sed neque de ipsis criminibus quamlibet magnis remittendis in Ecclesia Dei desperanda est misericordia agentibus poenitentiam secundum modum sui cuiusque peccati But we may not despaire of Gods mercy for the remission of sinnes in the Church be they neuer so greuoiâ— â–ª I meane to all such as will do penaunce according to the quaÌ„tity of their fault So S. Ambrose writing to a religious woman that had broken her vowe of chastity which in those dayes was reckened one ef the most deadly and greuous crimes that coulde be warneth her thus Grandi plagae alta prolixa opus est medicina grande scelus grandem necessariam habet satisfactionem A greuous hurt must haue a deepe long sauluing a heinous offense requireth maruelous much satisfaction Yea as I take his words he plainely admonisheth her that she shall haue much a doe to satisfie fully for her sinne during her life therefore he seemeth to will her not to looke for full remedy and release before she feele Gods iudgement VVhich he meaneth not by the generall day but the particular accompt which followeth streight vpoÌ„ mans death But that I deceiue no man wittingly I wil report his owne wordes Inhaere poeniteÌ„tiae vsque ad extremum vitae nec tibi praesumas ab humano die posse veniaÌ„ dari quia decipit te qui hoc tibi polliceri voluerit quae enim proprie in dominuÌ„ peccasti ab illo solo in die iudicij coÌ„uenit expectare remediuÌ„ CoÌ„tinue in penaunce to the last day thou hast to liue and presume not ouer boldly of pardoÌ„ to be obteined in mans day for who so euer promiseth thee so he deceiueth thee for thou that hast offended directly against God him selfe must at Gods hande onely in the day of iudgement trust of mercy If he meane by the last IudgemeÌ„t then the author supposeth that such horrible incest shall be punished till the day of the general resurrectioÌ„ in purgatory for after that day as Augustin affirmeth there shal be no more any of the elect in paine He meaneth theÌ„ surely nothing els but that there caÌ„ be no penaunce aunswerable fully in this life to so greuous a crime and that the Church ordinarely pardoneth not the sinnes which be not by some proportion of paine and punishment recompensed And this is ordinary though by the supreme power giuen to Gods ministers for the gouernement of the Church the offender may in this case or the like if his competent dolour of hearte and zeâ—e so require wholy be acquieted through the merites of Christes death and the happy fellowship of sainctes in the communion of the common body where the lacke of one membre is abundantly supplied by the residue Mary it is a â—arde matter to be so qualified that
vnsemely wrething or wraesting do so plainely beare that if ours were a sense neuer hearde of before yet the onely comparing of the textes and necessary circumstancies of the letter might rather driue vs to that meaning then any other that they can euer alleage or proue But now as Catholikes euer do keping the olde meaning and forging no newe geuing no other sense then that which the persuasion of all Christian people both learned and simple hath driuen from the beginning of our faith downe to our dayes and framing no other vnderstanding then that which we finde expressely in the learning and faith of our fathers both set forth and proued who is so rude in iudgement or so entangled with any contrary opinion that will not acknowledge the trueth and doctrine euery waye so compassed with proofe and all likelihoods CAP. VII 1 THat the iudgement of God beginneth at the death of euery man and so continueth vntil the full manifestation therof in the last day is clearer by the Scripture of God then that it needeth the confirmatioÌ„ of mans authoritie But that Ambrose is alleged to proue that euery man immediatly after his death doth feele that he must looke for in the daye of iudgement I meruaile to what purpose it is brought in if it be not to ouerthrow purgatory For if it be true as it must needes be no man feeleth paine after this life but he that shall feele it eternally And surely to the same effect he speaketh in his booke de bono mortis where he commendeth the death of the faithfull quia deteriorem statum non efficit sed qualem in singulis inuenerit talem iudicio fururo reseruat quietè ipsis fouet praesentium inuidiae subducit futurorum expectatione componit Because death maketh not their state worse but such as it findeth in euery man such it reserueth into the iudgement to come and quietly chierisheth them and both taketh them away from the enuy of things present and setleth them in expectation of things to come Thus sayth Ambrose plainely in this place what soeuer he speaketh allegorically of the fiery sword in other places VVell it is euident you saie that the soules departed sleepe not of which error Luther also was noted I neuer harde any man of credit note him therof who is well knowne to haue bene of a cleane contrary iudgement but I reade in the actes of the Councel of Constance that Pope Iohn the 23 was condemned for denying the immortality of the soule the resurrection of the deade and the life euerlasting But if the soules sleepe not then they be awake in purgatory or if ye reason not so subtilly you meane that if they be at all in purgatory they be there immediatly after their departure out of their bodyes But how shall we proue that they come there at all Forsooth by the sayings of the Prophet and of the Apostle before alleged which are so plaine proofe and so euident to be vnderstoode of them selues that they nede none other interpretation But how plaine it is that they serue nothing to that purpose I haue sufficiently declared already yet must we further follow the same matter because here are brought in the authoritie of the doctors to agree with M. Allens glose 2 But as reason is and my promise was at the beginning I will let the good Christian see the wordes of most notable auncient writers that he may reioyse his faith to be so surely grounded First then you shall perceiue that S. Augustine expoundeth the texte of the prophet Malachie before recited for purgatory paines euen as I saide I am certaine he may much moue our aduersaries as one whome they chalenge to be patrone of some of their opinions but how vniustly in all pointes God knoweth and in this matter especially you shall now perceiue After the rehersall of the Prophets wordes and well weying of the matter he thus writeth Ex ijs quae dicta sunt videtur euidentius apparere in illo iudicio quasdam quorundam purgatorias poenas futuras Vbi enim dicitur Quis substinebit diem introitus eius aut quis ferre poterit vt aspiciat eum quia ipse ingreditur quasi ignis conflatorij quasi herba lauantium sedebit conflans emundans sicut argentum aurum emundabit filios Leui fundet eos sicut aurum sicut argentum quid aliud intelligendum est dicit tale aliquid Isaias Lauabit dominus sordes filiorum filiarum Syon sanguinem emundabit de medio eorum spiritu iudicij spiritu combustionis Nisi sortè sic eos dicendum est emundari à sordibus eliquari quodammodo cuÌ„ ab eis mali per poenale iudicium separantur vt illorum segregatio atque damnatio purgatio sit istorum quia sine talium de coetero commixtione victuri sunt sed cum dicit emundabit filios Leui fundet eos sicut aurum argentum erunt domino offerentes hostias in iusticia placebit domino sacrificium Iuda Hierusalem Vtique ostendit eos ipsos qui emundabuntur deinceps in sacrificijs iusticiae domino esse placituros ac per hoc ipsi a sua iniustitia emundabuntur in qua domino hostiae displicebant porrò in plena perfectaque iustitia ipsi erunt cum mundati fuerint quid enim acceptius deo tales offerunt quà m seipsos verum ista quaestio de Purgatorijs poenis vt diligentius pertractetur in tempus aliud differenda est thus in english By the foresaide wordes in semeth very euident that in the time of that iudgement there shall be certaine Purgatory paines for some sort of men For when it is saide Who can be able to susteine the day of his comming who can stand in his sight because he shall sit trying out and purifying as it were golde and siluer and entre in like the fier of the fornace and as washers sope he shall make cleane the sonnes of Leui shall trie them as golde and siluer VVhat other thing by all these wordes can be ment but purgatory paines Namely seeing the prophet Esaie hath the like in these wordes God shall washe a waye the filthe of the sonnes and daughters of Syon and purge bloude from the middest of them in the spirite of iudgement and fier Except a man might conueniently say that they shall be washed from filthe and as you would say newe fourged when the wicked by finall iudgement are seuered out of their company that so their departure and damnation may be the purgation of the rest because after that day they shall liue for euer without the company of the badde But when the Prophet sayth more that he will clense the children of Leuy and purify them as golde and siluer that they may offer their oblations in righteousnesse and the sacrifice of Iuda and Hierusalem shall please our Lorde He â—urely giueth vs
to wit that euen the same selfe men which shall be purged must afterwarde offer to God the sacrifice of iustice that being once thus amended of their vnrighteousnesse in which their offeringes could not be acceptable vnto God may afterwarde in pure and perfect iustice offer them selues as a most pleasaunt hoste and oblation vnto our lord But this question of purgatory paines I will differ to a further treaty hereafter All this hath S. Augustine VVhereby we may both acknowledge his minde and the Prophets meaning which according to the grace geuen vnto him in the expounding of Scriptures he hath sought out by conference of that place with other the like out of Esay by weying discretly the whole circumstance of the letter finally by comparing of the other meaning which to some might haue bene reckened apte and mete for that place In all which doing he was as farre from rashe iudgement as our newe doctors be from good aduisement But because he referreth vs to the further discussing of the same matter afterward in the named worke it shal be to our purpose not a litle to haue this dictors full minde constant iudgement therein In the xxj booke after much matter vttered and very deepe discussing of the cause he maketh this grouÌ„ded Conclusion Temporales poenas alij in hac vita tantum alij post mortem alij nunc nuÌ„c veruntameÌ„ ante illud saeuerissimuÌ„ nouissimúmque iudiciuÌ„ patiuntur Non autem omnes veniuÌ„t in sempiternas poenas quae post illud iudiciuÌ„ his sunt futurae qui post mortem sustinent temporales nam quibusdam quod in isto noÌ„ remittitur remitti in futuro saeculo id est ne futuri saeculi aeterno supplicio puniaÌ„tur iam supra diximus Temporall paines that is to say punishment which shall haue an end some men suffer in this life some other after their death other some both now then But all this before the day of iudgement that is the greatest and last of all other iudgements not all that be teÌ„porally punished after their departure come into paines perpetuall which shall be after the generall daye for we haue already declared that there be certaine which haue remission in an other worlde that is to say a pardon that they be not punished euerlastingly that had not forgeuenesse in this By these wordes we may be assured that as in the next life there be paines endelesse and perpetuall for the wicked so in the same worlde after our ende here there must needes be some transitory punishment and correction for such of the meane sorte as shall afterwarde be saued And againe he speaketh as I take it of the fier of Conflagration that shall in the latter day purge some that be meane and wast other that be wicked and sende them from that present punishment to further eternall damnation I will recite his owne wordes that ye may perceiue the perpetuall constancy of this excellent mans minde in this matter It shall also be a testimonie sufficient for the vnderstanding of S. Pauls wordes nowe before alleaged Si aedificauerit super fundamentum ligna foenum stipulam id est mores saeculares fundamento fidei suae super aedificauerit tameÌ„ si in fundamento sit Christus primum locuÌ„ ipse habeat in corde ei nihil omnino anteponatur porteÌ„tur tales Veniet caminus inceÌ„det ligna foenuÌ„ stipulam ipse inquit saluus erit sic tamen quasi per ignem Hoc aget caminos alios in sinistram â—eparabit alios in dexteram quodammodo eliquabit If any man erect vpon the foundatioÌ„ woodde hay or straw that is to say worldely affections vpon the groundewarke of his sayth if yet Christ be in the foundation and beare the greatest stroke in his harte so that nothing be preferred before him such may well be borne withall for the fiery fornace shall come burne the wood hay and stooble shall be saued as the Apostle saith though it be for all that through the fier that fornace then shall parte some to the lift hande and try forth other if a man may so tearme it to the right hande 2 The first place is geuen vnto Augustine because he is in a maner confessed to be a patrone of some of our opinions though he be not of all This doctor in his 20 booke de ciuitate dei is saide to expound the texte of Melachy as M. Allen hath doen of the paines of purgatory But reade the place with indifferent iudgement who so can and will and he shall plainely perceiue that Augustine speaketh not of M. Allens purgatory which is said to be immediatly after mens death but of certaine purging paines which he supposeth some shall suffer at the last daye of Gods generall iudgement and yet he is so vncertaine of that exposition that he doubteth whether this purging whereof the Prophet speaketh may not be vnderstoode of that seperation which shal be of the godly from the wicked in that daye Howbeit 21. booke cap. 13. of the same worke he concludeth very cleerely that some suffer temporall paines after this life This maye not be denyed but how vnconstant Augustine was in his error appereth by this that sometime he doubteth whether there be any such matter other whiles he seemeth plainely to deny all other receptacles of the soules departed beside heauen and hell For both in his Enchiridion ad Laurentium cap. 69. de octo Dulcitij in quaestionibus quaest 1. he sayeth that as it is not incredible that such a matter may be after this life so it may be doubted whether it be so or no. Likewise in his booke de fide operibus cap. 16. he hath these wordes speaking of that texte to S. Paule 1. Corinthians 3. Siue ergo in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia iudicia subsequantur non abhoâ—ret quantum arbitror a ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things in this life only or whether such iudgements follow after this life also the vnderstanding of this sentence abhorreth not as I thinke from the waye of trueth Againe in Hypognost contra Pelagianos lib. 5. he acknowledgeth the kingdom of heauen for to receiue the godly and hell fire for the punishment of the wicked but a third place sayth he we are altogither ignoraunt of neither doe we finde it in the holy Scriptures He writeth against the Pelagians that imagined a third place for the rest of infants that were not baptised but the same reason serueth as well against the popish purgatory because we finde it not in the holy Scriptures to the like effect he writeth de verbis Apostoli sermone 14. where he acknowledgeth the right hand and the left hand of God that is the kingdom of heauen and the paynes of hell the midle place he vtterly denyeth wherein infantes may
out till they haue payed the vttermost farthing Those must passe the fiery floode by horrible fordes of skawlding waues VVhereof the Prophet maketh mention thus And a firy streame ranne before his face The space of passage shall be measured by the matter of sinne according to the encrease of our offensies the discreite discipline of that flame shall reuenge againe and looke how farre in wickednesse our foly did reach so farre this punishment shall wisely waste And like as Gods worde compareth mans soule to a brasen potte saying Set the potte empty ouer the coles till the brasse thereof of waxe hote So there thou shalt see periury angre malice vnfructefull desires sweate out which did infect the purity of mans noble nature there the pewter and leade of diverse passions which did abase the pure golde of Gods image shall be consumed away All which thinges might in our life time haue easely bene wiped away by almes and teares Such a strait accompt loe will he kepe with man that for mans sake gaue him selfe to death and being throust through with nailes hath fastened the dominion of death also So farre hath Emissenus spoken and his wordes be so weighty that they haue bene counted worthy rehersall in solemne Sermâ—ns and Homilies of the Antiquity to stirre vp their hearers to the necessary awe of Gods iudgements with much prouocation of vertuous life S. Augustine hath the selfe same discourse almost no word thereof chaunged VVith this addition Ideo fratres charissimi conuertamus nos ad meliora dum in nostra potestate sunt remedia Therfore deare brethern let vs turne and amende by time whilest the remedies be yet in our owne dealinge And in an other place thus he toucheth the scripture alleaged Apparebit Deus Deorum in Syon sed quando post peregrinationem finita via si tamen post finitam viam non iudici tradamur vt iudex mittat in carcerem The God of Gods in Syon shall appeare but when mary after our pilgramage be past and the iourney ended Excepte it sâ— fall out that after our iourney here we be deliuered vp to the iudge so the iudge send vs to prison To this place also S. Bernarde doth sâ—eetely but yet fearefully allude in this exhortation Volat sayth he irreuocabile verbum dum creditis vos cauere poenam istam minimam incurritis multo ampliorem Illud enim scitote quia post hanc vitam in locis purgabilibus centupliciter quae fuerunt hic neglecta reddentur vsque ad nouissimum quadrantem Our worde not possible to be called backe flyeth farre and whilest you seeke to auoyde a litle griefe here you incurre much greater For assure your selfe of this that after this life in places of purgation all negligencies past must be repaide a hundreth foulde home againe till the discharge of the last farthinge 4 As for this authority of Eusebius which hath serued for a patch to peece vp so many homilies of so many diuerse men as a Cuckowes song vttered in diuerse places semeth neither to haue Eusebius nor Augustine nor any other good author to be the father of it but euen some cowled cuckowe that hath left this egge in so many birdes nestes to be hatched vnder their winges and to be counted for one of their chickens but that your voyce doth soone bewray it And here a man may note a great peece of cunning in them that had the writing out of bookes about those times when errours began to take strength that not onely whole workes were falsly intitled to diuers good authours but also patches inserted to their owne workes And if any thing by them were once spoken that sounded to the confirmation of those errors that was thrust into diuers places of their writings lest it should scarse be espied in one And hereof it commeth that such sayings in Augustine Chrysostome and other as seeme to allow prayer for the dead be so often repeated in their writings and especially in homilies that were taken of their mouthes by Scribes and Notaries But who so euer was the father of this sentence as he speaketh friendely for the paynes of purgatory so he sheweth him self an vtter enemy to the release of the same So doth that Augustine which addeth his exhortation to these wordes by him repeated But the other Augustine which writeth vpon the 103. Psalme sayth that God shall appeare to them onely which are not cast into prison when they be departed out of this life therfore I muse wherefore those wordes are here brought in For Augustine as I will shew afterward vnderstandeth that prison for hell and eternal tormeÌ„ts Bernard although he be too yong to depose in this cause yet he speaketh not so much to auouch the paynes of purgatory as to deny the remedy or remission of them wherefore his testimony helpeth not purgatory so much one way as it hindreth the Papistes gayne an other way 5 Here now let our aduersaries in this bright shining trueth blinde them selues let them boldely bost of their accustomed impudency that the Catholickes haue no scriptures nor apparence of scriptures or if they stande with vs for the meaning let them shape with all their conueyaunce any one shifte to aunswere these doctors words Or if the vniforme consent of so many of the best learning and greatest wisedom in the whole Church may haue no roome with them let them shew whereupon their owne credits be growne so great that without reason likelihood or authority men must needes beleue them It is a straunge case that what soeuer they auouch it must be Gods word what meaning so euer they make for maintenance of their wicked foly it must be termed the true sense of Scripture And the truth it selfe shewing all force in the conference of diuers places of holy writte in weight of reason in the workes and writings of all antiquitie shall be so lightly regarded I would to God the people pitifully deceiued by such vayne flying talke could beholde the vpright wayes of truth or could learne by the playne dealing of our side to require some grounded proofe of these newe doctors deuises They may well perceiue if they haue any necessary care of those weighty matters touching our saluation so neare that the Catholike neuer aduentureth to bring any Scripture for his purpose but he will be sure for his warrant to haue the same so expounded by the auncient fathers of our faith lest by his rashnesse he deceiue other and father some falshood vpon the holy writers of Gods will which were horrible sacrilege But on the other side if a man might pose M. Caluin or Flaccius or such other of that light family what doctor or Scripture they followed in the exposition of S. Iames his place for the anoynting with holy oyle when they were not ashamed to giue this sense of that Scripture that it were good to call the elders of the people that had
Idolatrie proueth that there is a God but Idolatry is not therefore the true worship of god Of the heresie of the Pharisies that helde Pythagoras opinion of the passing of one soule into diuers bodies may be concluded the immortalitie of the soule but this doth not iustifie that errour of the Pharisies by the heresy of Origines which taught that all men should be saued at length not onely the immortalitie of the soule and the resurrection but also the infinite mercy of God may be concluded which all are true articles yet was not the heresie of Origine true for all this vnlesse M. Allen hath forgotten that olde sophisme which children can solute who so euer sayth you are an asse sayth you are a lyuing creature but he that sayth you are a liuing creature sayth true therefore who so euer sayth you are an asse sayth true And such for all the worlde is M. Allens reason who so confesseth prayers for the deade confesseth that the deade doe liue and shall rise againe but he that confesseth that the dead doe liue and shall rise againe doth not erre therefore he that confesseth prayers for the deade doth not erre 2 But now their aunswere must be here that this booke by which I haue vrged them so farre shall be no scripture And this is the ishue of heresie lo. These men that lightly writh wreast Gods worde from all true meaning to the maintenaunce of their matter being further charged by euidence of the wordes when other conuenient shifte can not be founde they are driuen to refuse vtterly the sacred canonicall scripture of God for notwithstanding their perpetuall bragges of scripture yet there can no scripture holde them but they will either finde a fonde shifte to loose it or els a shamefull stoutnes vtterly to brast and breake it They first seeke by suttelty to vnfasten the bonde of Gods trueth which is euery waye so enwrapped with the testimonies of holy Scripture then as they can not worke by wiles they boldely brast the bandes in sonder Thus when for misconstruing of this plane assertion of the booke of Machabees they can conuey no fit meaning they are driuen to harde shiftes and vnsemely to deny the whole booke to be scripture and therefore in matters of question of no authority In which pointe the authoritie of the Iewes moueth them more in denying the bookes to be in the canon of Gods scripture then the decree of the holy Church for the approuing of the same to be scripture But S. Hierome though he confesse the Iewes not to allowe them yet is bolde to recken them amongest the bookes of the holy Histories not measuring their authority by the canon of the Hebrues but by the rule of Christian councells The Canons of the Apostles will chalenge them from the Iewes and heretikes to be scripture still Innocentius the first in his rehersall of diuine bookes numbreth these of the histories of the Machabees also the Councell of Carthage the third authorisheth them S. Augustine in his bookes De doctrina Christiana numbring all canonicall scriptures with the reste reciteth these also Of which bookes in the xviij of the Citie of God he thus further testifieth Ab hoc tempore apud Iudaeos restituto templo non reges sed principes fuerunt vsque ad Aristobulum quorum supputatio temporum non in scripturis sanctis quae Canonicae appellantur sed in alijs inuenitur in quibus sunt MachabaeoruÌ„ libri quos non Iudaei sed Ecclesia pro canonicis habet From this time he meaneth after the history of Esdras there was no kinges but chiefe gouernours after the restitutioÌ„ repaire of the temple till Aristobulus time of all which time there is no Chronikle nor couÌ„te in the scriptures which be Canonicall but in other that be extant we finde that supplied as in the bookes of Machabees which bookes although the Iewes do not yet the Church of God counteth for canonicall scripture But what shoulde we stande in this point the whole Church of God and euery part or prouince thereof euery learned doctour and vertuous Christian man hath receiued and allowed them for scripture the which constant and perpetuall iudgement of the Church of Christ if any man refuse let him be esteemed an Ethnike Or because he defendeth the Iewes authority against the determination of Christes Churâ—h let him be at this time accompted for a iewe And yet I thinke he ouer shooteth them herein for they confesse the history to be true although not holy Scripture neither haue they found any such errour of doctrine therein conteined as he doth And as for the auncient Christian writers and famous doctours they alleage euen that place to proue the lawefull prayer for Christian soules departed whereby these fellowes take occasion to saie it is no scripture at all As godly Damascenus in these wordes Scitis enim quid dicat scriptura quomodo Iudas ille Machabaeus in Syon Ciuitate regis magni vt cognouit populum sibi subiectum à Palestinis hostibus occisum scrutatione facta inuenta idola in sinibus corum statim pro vnoquoque eorum ad dominum qui ad misericordiam facilis paratus est munera propitiatoria obtulit sane ob summam religionem fraternamque charitatem in hoc facinore vt in omnibus alijs a diuinissima scriptura magnificus admirabilis habebatur You know sayth he what the scripture reporteth how that worthy Iudas Machabeus of Syon the City of the great kinge after he vnderstood certeine of his subiectes to haue bene slaine of the Palestines his enemies and search being made had founde in their lappes idols straight wayes offered to God who is much inclined to mercy for euery of his souldiars so slaine propitiatory oblations â–ª who suerly for that act as proceding of wonderfull religion and brotherly loue and in all other affaires is of the holy writte esteemed mighty and meruelous Longe before this writer did S. Augustine vse the same booke and text of Machabees to proue the prayers sacrifice for the departed in peace In the booke of Machabees sayth he we reade that sacrifice was offered for the deade But if it were in none of the olde scriptures reade at all yet the authority of the vniuersall Church which for this point is plaine were of no small force whereby it is prouided that in the prayers which be made at the altare by the priest to our Lorde God the commemoration of the deade shall haue their place Thus by these auncient authors both the bookes be approued the text it selfe for which our aduersaries vnworthely denied the booke alleaged for the same purpose and the doctrine so sure that if no scripture coulde be founde it would beare out it selfe against all falsehood But this doctor handleth Pelagius the heretique denying the booke of VVisdome to be scripture because there was a sentence out of the fourth Chapter thereof brought
not nowe that they renounce all that helpe of Councells Doctors which with vauntes they clamed before whiles they impudently make a diuision or contrarietie betwixt them and the holy scripture And we take it at their hand as an open acknowledging of their lacke there where they pretended greatest store The which thinge if they likewise would confesse openly in pulpit and in plaine words as they meane nothing lesse when they shew the people that they were but men that they might erre that they followed the custome of the common people in their time that they are not to be receiued but where they agree with scripture that them selues must try whether they be consonant to the word of God or no if they would I say without such cloked wordes bouldly pronounce as Luther their maister did that they cared not for a hundreth Augustines or Hieroms that they esteemed not the consent of all nations that they would be tryed by the iudgement of no coūcell that they would purposely runne contrary to the Councells decree in all causes that they would take that for thonely truth which is conteined in the holy Scriptures and that for Scripture which them selues thought good and last of all that for the true meaning which agreed best to the vpholding of error and heresie then would the people leaue these lewde masters on the plaine field which now they keepe with them one while by the praises of the doctors and antiquitie and somewhiles by thabasing of them againe and deceitfull referring all to the onely Scriptures to which they say credit may safely be giuen where the doctors without daunger can not be further followed then as they be not found to disagree with Gods word So that the cause seemeth now to be driuen to this ishue in the eyes of thignorant whether men should rather beleue the Scipture or the doctors the word of God that can not be false or the fathers that were but men and therfore might erre deceiue and be deceiued 3 But that you loue to spende many wordes about a thinge of naught you might haue spoken as much in three wordes as you haue done in three leaues But that I maye breefely cut of your lauesh lippe labor whereas you vse in deede as greate impudencie as you charge vs withall in wordes first you would make our chalenge contrary to it self as though one while we boast of the doctors and then being driuen from them we flie to the Scriptures They that dayly heare our preaching with any diligence peruse our writing can beare vs witnes that you doe falsely shamefully belie vs For we stand for authoritie onely to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures and whatsoeuer we say of fathers councells or the most auncient primitiue Church it is either for testimony of our truth or for conuiction of your lying For it is you M. Allen the Papists that boast of all antiquitie all fathers all doctors all councells all Churches to be all togither on your side among whom as we will not deny but you haue some Patrones of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest of your heresies And therefore this ishue is rightly ioyned and without any Ieofayle vpon this point that the Scripture is to be credited rather then the doctors the word of God rather then the writings of men 4 But this is not the state of our controuersie nor of any question betwixt the Catholikes and them And that they knowe full well though they craftely cloke it with chaunge of wordes for we acknowledge most gladly that if any Doctor Prophet Apostle or Angell if it were possible preach vnto vs any thing against the word and truth of Gods Scripture that he is accursed of God and to be reiected of men But here is the stand and the point of all our doubtes in generall note it well Maister Protestaunt whether the auncient fathers some of them being in Christes time diuers of them scholars to his Apostles many within one hundreth or two of yeares afterward most of them more thē a thousand yeares since I speake of such as we haue named in our cause all wonderfully learned as well in the knowledge of the secretes of Gods mysteries as the tongues all mercifully endued with great giftes and graces all exceeding studious in the Scriptures all hauing the same testament and written worde of God that we now haue all vsing meruelous diligence in the conference of diuers places for the true meaning and vnderstanding of the same all hauing feruent zeale in teaching the Christian people all at times appoynted resorting togither from diuers partes of the world to some one general search in which by humble conference togither and prayer they doubted not to obteyne the spirite of truth as it was by our Maister promised the question is now then I say whether those holy men thus holpen by nature diligence time and grace be not more like to vnderstand the Scripture then these men which either lacke all these helpes or most of them Secondly it followeth thereupon whether we should rather giue credit to them affirming purgatory and prayers for the deade to be not onely consonant but plainely proued by the Scriptures or else to our new aduersaries auouching these thinges to be against the Scripture VVhereby you see we must not nowe reason whether we ought to beleue the doctors or the Scriptures better but whether for the true sense we must not beleue the olde fathers better then these newe fooles 4 In wordes you graunt our ishue because you knowe that all the cuntry of christians would otherwise go against you but in deede you deny it For the ishue which you would ioyne vpon is both captious and doubtfull Captious because it disioyneth those thinges which are not to be separated namely the Scripture and the true meaning thereof Doubtfull because it standeth vpon a likelyhoode and not vpon a certeinty For thus you ioyne whether the olde doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestants I haue aunswered before we wil make no comparison with them Neither will we challenge the likelyhood to vs neither will we leaue it to them for whether so euer we doe we shall be neuer the more certeine of the truth But this will we set downe as a most certeine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same spirite by which they were written What then shall we arrogate the spirite as proper to vs and deny it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirite we humbly thanke his maiestie so haue we How then is the spirite of God contrary to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirite and both Martyres yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture what then there remaineth but this second
doth recant The third article conteyneth 5. demandes 1 Shew me why our common knowen Church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion conteyned in the same THere may be diuers good reasons shewed why your Church commonly knowen to be the church of Antichrist did not as well corrupt the text of the Testament as the true religion conteined therein First because she coulde not the copies thereof being so many by the prouidence of God dispersed throughout the worlde Secondly because she thought it not so needefull hauing other meanes to worke her deuilish deuise For although she coulde not corrupt the scripture yet it made the lesse matter because she founde meanes to diminish and controll the authority therof by aduancing decrees of men Popes and Councells to be equall or of greater authoritie than the scripture Thirdly because she woulde be lesse in feare to be reproued by the scripture she prouided that the knowledge thereof shoulde be hidden from the vnlearned people by a strange tongue and from the learned by the tedious mazes of questions deuised by her Canonistes and Sententiaries Fourthly because she submitted all interpretation of the scripture to her owne iudgement and therefore woulde not be controlled by the iudgement thereof but woulde alwayes expound it as it liked her best As appeareth by Ockam and Duns who though they confesse that transubstantiation seemeth to them contrary to the scripture and reason yet they beleued it because of the authoritie of the church and for none other cause These are the reasons why the Romish church did not as well corrupt the text of the Testamēt as the true Religion And yet how corrupt that Latine translation is which they woulde needes thrust vpō vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such texts as are the most coulerable places for the defence of Popish doctrine I will geue one example for all They alleage the text 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not against the certainetie of faith whereas the Greeke hath not he that standeth but he that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Thus the popish church cannot altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting of the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lorde knoweth 2 Shew me why she kept not so safely and faithfully the true sense of God his word as she preserued the word it selfe BEcause it was against her owne estimation and profit which are the chiefe endes for which popish Prelates mainteyne popish religion Take away the Popes prerogatiue which is contrary to the sense of God his word downe goe Cardinalls Legates Prothonotaries downe goeth all the Court of Rome take away workes of supererogation which are contrary to the Scripture downe goe Abbeys Priories and Chantries Take away the sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory which are contrary to the word of God downe goeth the estimation and gaynes of all the popish clergie And this is the cause why the popish church kept not so safely and faithfully the true sense of God his word as she preserued the word it selfe although she preserued not the word it self in such safetie as becommed the Church of Christ. 3 Shew me why we should beleue the Papistes as you terme them for the word it self and rather you Protestants thā them for the meaning of the word WE doe not chalenge credit to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it But because we proue it to be true by the worde of god And therefore for the meaning of the word you should beleue vs rather than them because our groundes proues are better then theirs or else we require not to be beleued better than they 4 Shew me why you beleued our Church telling you this to be God his booke will not credit her auouching this to be the true and vndoubted sense of the same booke IF we had no better ground to perswade vs of the authoritie of God his booke than the testimony of your Church you may be sure we would not beleue it But because we haue most stedfast assurance of God his spirite for the authority of that booke with the testimony of the true Church in all ages If you say it is God his booke we beleue you not because you say so but because we know it to be true But if you bring out a false sense we beleue you not because we know it to be false are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrary to the meaning of the holy Ghost To be plaine with you we geue as much credit to your Church as to the deuill When the deuill sayth it is written He shall giue his angells charge ouer thee and with their handes they shall hold thee vp that thou dash not thy foote against a stone We beleue that this is the worde of god But when he auoucheth this to be the meaning of it that we may cast downe our selues from a Church steeple without daunger we doe not beleue him because we know this sense is contrary to an other Scripture which sayth Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. So when you say these wordes are the Scripture of God This is my body We beleue it because we knowe it to be true But when you say this is the meaning of these wordes This bread is turned into my naturall bodye we beleue you not because it is contrary to all places of Scripture which proue the trueth of Christ his humanitie or naturall body Thus I shewe you why we beleue you if you say the Scripture is God his word namely because we know it to be true why we beleue you not saying this is the meaning of it that is because we knowe by the word of God that it is false 5 Last of all Shew me why you beleued the olde known church affirming this to be the word of God and will not beleue her affirming Luther to be an heretike shew me good reason or Scripture for these thinges and I recant IF you meane by the olde Church the primitiue Church whose testimony of the word of God we allow beleue I deny that the primitiue Church did affirme Luther to be an heretike or the doctrine that he taught which we hold to be heresie but I am able to proue that the primitiue Church from which you haue receiued the Scripture affirmeth your doctrine to be heresie your Church the Church of Antichrist But if by the old knowne Church you meane the Church of old knowne to be the Church of Antichrist which is the popish church we beleue the deuill if he speake the trueth and we beleue not an Angell comming from heauen if he bring any other Gospel than S. Paule deliuered to the Galathians Therefore when your