to me as the rest of the tales told of the greatnesse of their cities other unheard of things which seem as strange to me as tale of the world in the Moon But the reporters are Jesuites who speake for their profits as Demetrius did and therefore are not to be believed For to get Princes to maintaine them there is hope of their dominion over that place they heape to themselves masses of treasure for the allowance is very great that they have to build Colledges and for bribing officers to give way to them there to make converts and for their own maintenance which the Castillian and Portingall profits in all the East Indies could scarcely maintaine although very great besides the bounty of many a private person for their soules health in gaining a soule which they may doe in maintaining a Jesuite to preach to those Pagans And although you may say that the Pope is so good a husband that he will not let his disciples sow their seed in barren ground a Countrey that is poor and can produce no profit I answer that it must be a poore fish Saint Peter refuses to catch but if he can have from him that expects the draught when the net is drawn as much as if they were all Salmons what cares he if they prove all Menevves But for your quoting the opinion of my Countrymen who thinke that the neerer you goe to the Equinoctiall Line where is the greatest heat the riper you find the fruits and consequently the brayns of the men It is no strange thing in our populous Nation to find men of severall opinions and such as are not able to judge of things themselves therefore they depend upon the opinion of others as in this perticular The experience of every common Seaman that trades betwixt the Tropicks where the heat is most refulgent can answer for the ignorance of those mens fancies who knows there are none so barbarous and uncivill as those men are and I know it will be said that it is for want of conversation with the rest of the World But I say if they be naturally so wise why did they not teach and not learn of others But to the contrary they have converst with the Portingall Nation for these two hundred yeeres and yet are almost as ignorant as they were at their first acquaintance which shews their indocible natures to civility A. Why this opinion is generally mayntained by the Learned of your Countrymen C. Not by the truly knowing men but such as read much and know but little what 's eyther for their own honour or that of their Countrey but read and believe rather what is written by a Forreigner then search into the ends of his Writing For they interpret them to meane nothing but as they say as the Papists doe the Scripture when it says of Christ to the Bread This is my body without looking into the mysticall meaning of the word For by this very opinion many are drawne into all manner of beliefs which are enjoyned by the Catholicks of Rome before they are a ware For they or their Disciples write that the Italian is the wisest man of Europe as being borne the most Southerly And if it be so then it must follow that the Fope being that Countryman borne and bred up in the Centre of Italy and chosen from amongst the wifest of that Nation must be concluded the wisest of the Italians And therefore fittest to command in Temporall things as a Prince and in Spirituall as be is inspired above any other man as having the power of Saint Peter So that the divine Power meeting in the wisest naturall man makes him most capable for government of any living as a Prince and Priest and suppose him so For according unto this rule it must needs follow and then what man is there that desires not the wisest Prince to govern him and that had not rather take to the opinion of the wisest in point of Religion then of a man inferiour in judgment So that according to that rule he must be your Prince and Priest therefore true policy of State would forbid this opinion fearing the Worme under the leafe And take this for your Answer and Foole for the badge of my Country-men that are of this judgment A. Well then I stand not so much on those points you think you have answered But what say you was not Abraham as much in favour of God as man could be for so Moses tels us and yet hee writ no Scripture no nor told any thing of Paradise or of Adams eating the forbidden fruit And therefore why should you believe that these things were true the World being three thousand yeers old when Moses wrote the Law without beliefe in which and the Messias that was promised by Jacob should come of the Tribe of Juda for which we must take Moses word who wrote this many yeers after Jacob dyed no flesh can be saved according to Scripture For nothing will bring one to Heaven but the belief in him And then you must condemne all that dyed before Jacob in which number you must include many whom you accompt good men As Adam Abell Enoch Noah Nahor Abraham Lot Isaac c. For the Scripture never says they heard of his comming and then what correspondence hath this together and what encouragement have we to serve him who condemneth the righteous with the wicked and so many thousand Millions of men as were born and died before Jacob knowing not for what there never being a rule prescribed for them to walk by C. Well this hath discovered your rotten inside and declared by your prophane handling of the Scripture your proper name Atheist But yet I shall answer what you say A. I told you I would not argne without you would forbear passion For the name of Atheist that was used of old time by Plutarch of Chaerova and others unto such as believed in no God which you cannot say by me For I do and in his universall Providence and extoll him for his justice and mercy in making so many Creatures as they are to shew his power and then his mercy in saving them But for the tale of Moses and that of the New Testament I rather suppose them the act of some cunning Prince then of a godly Prophet And nothing doth so cleer it to me as the example that is evident in those Princes and people which are his Disciples who make the Scripture the colour of all their wicked Enterprizes as Moses and his Tribe did to get the command over the Iews C. Well I perceive then that you are an Atheist but a refined one one of the new stamp you believe in God but not in Christ his Son nor the holy Ghost but according to our opinion he that denyes the Son and holy Ghost denyes the Father and therefore is an Atheist But to answer your first opinion and question Why did not Abraham aswell write the
of that bug-beare Hell C. To see how far you would secure your self in your folly and ignorant opinion you will take occasion to condemne for some pretending Christians the whole number of the believers in Christ For indeed those that you have discovered are but pretenders to Christianity For the marks that are by you described are the marks of the beast which is on them and by which you may know they have drank of the waters of the Whore and are become intoxicated with it and so do these mad things as it is said in the Revelation for the Scripture tels us There is but one Faith and one Batisme which is there is but one way unto salvation and except you be of that you cannot be saved Now that way is set downe in the ten Commandements in the old Law And all things added to them except the beliefe that Jesus Christs comming in the flesh and suffering is sufficient for our originall sin and breaking those Commandements is humane and by man invented nor shall any equivocation or mentall reservation be a sufficient Plea at the day of judgment for the transgressors in those ways you have set downe nor shall Christs Name stand them in more stead at that day then your opinion shall do you And for what you say the Brownist said as touching the Turks Dominion over England I suppose it was not his hatred to his Countrey nor his King that caused him to say so but his desire to keep his body the Temple of Christ entirely to his worship without the suffering any superstition to enter thereat which he might imagine hee could not doe so freely under the Pope or Bishops as under the Turk For may be he had heard that hee allowed of liberty of Conscience And though sometimes hee took the tenth child to make a Turk and left nine to him yet he might thinke that they would have never an one to his disposing nor himself neither And for your Item to the Courtier or State servant I like that well but not your resolution on it But the day permitting no long discourse of this subject I shall give you checkmate and so leave you I perceive your keeping to your opinion is for love of the worldly liberties you gain by it for the way to heaven you finde too strait and narrow to passe but I tell you that is a fond fantacie of yours for experience tels us daily that there is a hell in this life as well as in that to come and that which makes you fit for it is the same that makes you suffer in this For first suppose you steale or murther in the one you satisfie your want and the other your desire of revenge but have not both these sufficient obstacles to deter a man from either Is not expecting death a quarter of a yeare before it comes and then death it selfe which cuts off all your worldly enjoyments enough Is not the palsey dropsie and sottish humour of a common drunkard a worldly punishment greater then the pleasure that caused it And in the greatest worldly delight sweet Lechery is there not the greatest worldly punishment follows it if you extend your desires in that beyond the liberty the Scripture gives you for are your desires vain you must needs meete with some of your own humour and then a minutes sport somtimes causes a years pain but if by accident you scape one time you must be paid at another for it is now grown a proverb That when a thing seems strange they say it is as impossible as for a common whore to be without the pox and the least proportion of that is greater then the greatest pleasure you obtain by your transgression with those common prostitutes for there is no love in the action with them which men say makes the felicity in that kimde so great doth not deafnesse blindnesse feeblenesse and all manner of decrepitnesse baunt the body of man in this world for that sinne whereas to be good and to observe the Commandements brings a heaven to a man on earth for there is not the least discommodity attends the observer of them and since there is no commodity coming to you by this beliefe consider the great discommodity if it were but may happen for it For I 'le put it thus to you were it a million to one whether there were a hell or not considering it is but your opinion which brings you no profit nor true worldly pleasure why should you run the hazard of that eternall damnation for an opinion onely and to speake truly there is not that action so vile but by true faith in Jesus Christ may be forgiven according to the saying of the Scripture Therefore let not the feare of the strictnesse of the Scripture deter you from a true beliefe in it and the holy Trinity * ⎠* Ball'd t will be term'd by some when may be they Did never write or scarcely good sense say And though 't is writ to please yet likely hee That writes by such shall hardly censur'd be Imprimatur JOHN DOWNAME
and spirituall wisdome as the Bishop and Cardinals of Rome are And the Scripture being of more Antiquity then the Romish Religion from whence he pretends to take it the Church of England being grounded on that and not on mans imaginations as the Church of Rome in what it differs from ours is the more ancient Church And it is authentically proved by severall Authors of our Nation when and at what time the Tenets of the Church of Rome which differ from the Church of England were brought into it and by what Councell most of them being within nine hundered yeares But we confesse there was a Church in Rome before there was one in England Rome to be the place from whence the Faith was generally established in England But sence the corruption that was drawn in for the advantage of the Romish Church hath altered it from the purenesse of it at its converting ours to the Faith which was the cause that we fell from it to the state we now are in which is the same with its first institution A. Well then let that passe But for multitude there is a greater number of Mahumetans then of your profession and therefore according to that Argument you should fall to that beliefe C. I say no For the Scripture sayth We must not follow a multitude to do evill A. Why we agreed on confuting or proving by reason the truth of the Scripture Therefore I le barr that as a Plea But answer mee to the Argument with your reason C Well then I say that there is as great a multitude of Christians as of Mahumetans for although most part of Asia be Mahumetans yet almost all Europe except some few in Greece and Hungaria are Christians And for Africa the Kingdomes of Prety Janni with the Territorie of the Spaniards and Portugueses here and converts of America may compare with the remainder Mahumetans A. Well but for the antiquity of your Religion what can be said but that if you would plead for that and because that great and mighty Princes have received the Faith and lived and dyed in it you say that is the signe of the truth of it C. I say one signe A. Well I shall answer that one and your other after and first for this Whereas you say that it is a signe it is the truth in regard of the long continuance of the opinion of Moses inspiration with a divine and heavenly spirit and so consequently of the Law he writ and of the truth of it I answer That look on the people of America and those of Japan and all the people of the South Sea and you shall find they will tell you that their Faith hath endured ever since the World was no History being able to contradict but the Scripture doth speak of Baals Priests that launced their flesh and cryed out Baal heare us and of the Heathens that lived about the children of Israel which made their children to passe through the fire to the God Moloch and many such like customes are spoken of there to be used among the Heathen which at this day are used amongst those of America and the other places abovesaid which proves the Antiquity of their Customs and therefore should they be followed No an anciēt custom is nothing to prove the truth or cōveniency of a thing but rather the weaknesse of those that live so long in sottish ignorance C. You speake now of a company of barbarous simple people A. To you they may seeme so but not to themselves nor to some others and they have greater reason to condemn Christians for barbarousnesse then we to condemne them For the acts of the Spaniards have been so inhumane with them they have overcome that it is certainly known there have been 1100000 of harmlesse Indians in America cruelly butchered without cause or offence given by them as their own writers report But as the Persians seemed to the Grecians to be barbarous so the Grecians seemed no lesse barbarous to them and as all fools think wise men to be so or else they would learn of them to be wise so all wise men think fools to be so by their foolish acts and who shall judge this controversie neither party but the stander by And if it be so why then shall we not take the opinion of the ancient Philosophers as of Diogenes and others that lived that course of life that they took not care for to morrow which is the custom amongst them and for a civill kinde of humane curtesie they equalled them in all passages being as is reported by the first discoverers the most gentle and courteous people living And indeed my opinion tels me that the Irish men in their Rugge and trouses which is their constant weare are not so barbarous as the French who alter their habit oftner then a Cameleon doth her colour But goe into China a place generally accounted to have as subtile in habitants and as great multitudes of them as are in any petticular Dominion of the World their Chronicles informing them their Religion is as ancient as the creation of the world and that they record to be of above 6000. years continuance counting the yeare as we doe and they have as good oportunities for their knowledge of the truth as we for they say Printing is as ancient with them as History with us Therefore if you will be of a Religion or an opinion because the wise are of the same the learned are of the same a multitude are of the same and the Ancients were of the same then you may be of the Religion or opinion of the Chinians and according to your own rule In England the more Southeasterly you goe the wiser the people are as the French are wiser then the English the Italians wiser then the French and the Grecians wiser then them then consequently it must follow the people of Turkie and of Persia and the Mogores Countrey men to be wiser then the wisest of Europe and the people of China lying most Sontheastesly without you will come home again by America to be the wisest of the World and therefore to bee followed in custome and Religion C. Although I doe not so much stand on the Antiquity of the Religion I professe as I doe on the reasons that I can give to prove the verity of it yet dare I maintain its antiquity maugre all opposition For the story of China to passe over that of America I say I conceive that the Religion there according as it is reported is the simplest Religion in the World their supposed gods being always in their houses made of wood or clouts to which they worship and doe reverence which is contrary to ours for we worship him that made us and they worship that which they have made and were they so wise as the report goeth of them they are I cannot thinke they would doe such ridiculous things therefore the report of their wisdom seems as strange
Scripture as Moses I can answer you Why did not David a man after Gods owne heart build the Temple as well as Solomen but because it was the pleasure of the Lord that Solomon should rayse a Trophee of Honour to his Name for ever So why did not Abraham lead the Children of Israel into Canaan and write that which Moses writ but because the Lord had a minde to shew himself to be a great God and above all others and his power over Pharaoh and the unbelieving Egyptians by the hand of his servant Moses who brought the Children of Israel over the Red Sea and out of thraldome that they might Know that he was the Lord and Moses his Propher which by Abraham could not so well have beene shewne for that the Children of Israel had neyther number to testifie his Works nor affection to value them And for the injustice you taxe God with in condemning the Righteous with the Wicked I answer That if you will a nature you must allow a God or Providence which is good and all things to have their being from him as the World and all things that be in it Man being then in it must needs be made by him And if so then must hee have power over soule and body And having so you may allow the Election of him eyther to salvation or damnation both being just For if six men be condemned and three of them get the Kings Pardon are the other three unjustly dealt with Or if a man hire two and give one as much as hee promised and the other more is he that hath his due unjustly dealt with I say no but they ought all to think well those that have their deserts and those that have above then So then allowing God this power as every man may do what he vvill vvith his ovvn Then may you very vvell believe that the good vvhich vvere before Iacob vvere saved as being elected in Christ as the Scriptures say before the beginning of the World and many of the other by the mercy of him that made them A. This is no answer to me for now we argue to prove the likelyhood of the truth or falsehood of the Scripture and you quote Scripture in your Argument But answer me with reason how could they according to your Scripture be saved that believed not in the Messias and how doe you prove by your Scripture that any that lived in the times before Iacob knew of his comming C. I say where you will use Scripture against me you may allow me Scripture to answer you and it was promised from the beginning that the feed of the woman should breake the serpents head A. This is nothing because as aforesaid C. I shall refer that to judgement But the Prophecies of the Scripture with the marvellous things that have been done by the beleevers in it shew plainly that there is no truth but there no Religion but there no hope of salvation but there And first for the Prophesies The curse of Noah on Cham wherein he saith A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren which is meant of himselfe and his posterity to Iaphet and Sem and then again of Ismael the sonne of Abraham where it is said His hand shall be against every man and every mans hand against him Both which we see verified at this day for at the division of the world between the sonnes of Noah Africa fell into the posterity of Cham which people are at this day the greatest slaves that can be they being servants to servants and sold generally as horses to those that will give most for them it being the onely trade into America to carry the natives of Congo and Guiney Countries of Africa thither where they worke in the mines and at the sugar mils or any vile worke which no others will undertake in which their labour they became vassals and subject to the servants of others And for the Ismalites carriage it is well known to those that passe from Aleppo to Ierusalem or Bagdet or from Grancaro to Ierusalem or to any other part of Africa for though they are generally in the Turks dominions yet can none of his Subjects passe to the places abovesaid without drawn swords of the Ismalites in their teeths and about them for a reward for their peaceable passing And then for the vvonders that have been done by the beleevers in this Lavv look on Moses Ioshua Gedeon Samson David and his Worthies and the Prophets and their incomparable acts are without number Therefore seriously consider on vvhat I have said and turne from that vvicked condition you are in to my faith and my beliefe that I may love you as a brother and not hate you as one vvicked and an enemy to God and your ovvn soul Come let me persvvade you A. First for the Prophesies you speake of and the truth of them and how they are verified in the sonnes of Cham and Ismael I answer that the same condition are the sonnes of Sem in who are said to possesse Asia and not a few of those of Europe for first look on the great Turk and on his possessions in Eu ope and Asia and then the conditions of those in his Dominions who are all slaves and the great Officers in his Court and the rest of his servants and Souldiers being slaves themselves to him have their slaves also under them which may bee called slaves to slaves And on the Tartarians Persians Mogulls Chineans Japanders all the East Indians in all which Countries you may finde multitudes of slaves to be sold and few or none of Africa amongst them and in Africa there are many places where there be numbers of slaves of other parts as in particular the City of Argier where there are not so few as eight thousand of your own Nation and as many of the Spanish French and Italians that live in as great bondage as any in the World And for that of Ismael as much as you can say of his posterity may be said of the Owsecockey on the Gulf of Venice and many of the Scythians and Grim Tartars and for the men of might you speak of look on Moses and on Romulus both beginning of nothing both cunning both honoured after their deaths as Gods both valiant and hardy men the like comparison may be made between Joshua and Theseus Gideon and Scanderbeg Samson and Hercules David and Corelanus c. C. In your answer to mee in this point of Ismael and Cham you doe not disprove the truth of Scripture For though you instance the thraldome of other Nations you do not deny but that the Children of Cham are generally slavish and though you answer but poorly the condition of the Ismaelites with that of the Owsecockey and Tartars and Scythians yet you do not deny that the Prophecie is made good in them as if a man be told he shall break his neck if it happens that another man comes to