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scripture_n	according_a	call_v	church_n	2,387	5	4.1039	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93655	The opening of Master Prynnes new book, called A vindication: or, light breaking out from a cloud of differences, or late controversies. Wherein are inferences upon the Vindication, and antiqueres to the queres; and by that, the way a little cleared to a further discovery of truth in a church-order, by a conference or discourse. / By John Saltmarsh, preacher at Brasteed in Kent. Published according to order.	Saltmarsh, John, d. 1647.	1645 (1645)	Wing S493; Thomason E305_22; ESTC R200328	25,183	50

grievances of their Government so much But I shall argue further What need such comparing of the mixt Congregations of several Kingdoms ours and theirs Surely they are all corrupt enough and mixt enough and a Law for all sorts of sinners to communicate as the Vindication would have would not much more reform because it would then be a kinde of Church-priviledge to be a sinner or a scandalous person and to be something notoriously wicked would be a way of enrighting them to Church-Ordinances according to the Principles of Vindication however some fair pretences and Colours are laid on that we should believe the contrary But what of all this I believe there is another reason why the Government hath brought forth no more power of godlinesse upon the Kindoms then the Vindication observes because neither the Parishes are constituted nor yet the Government according to Gospel-order yet I honour them as Believers and Brethren in the Lord according to their light Yet I observe another secret why the preaching of the Word thrives better and reforms more then the Government in these Kingdoms because that the Preaching of the Word is an Ordinance of the Lord and when preached or held forth to ungodly scandalous and notorious sinners is but according to its right order of Institution so preached the end of the Lord is but fully and clearly served because the Word in the ministery of it is appointed for a converting Ordinance but the Government and Discipline being not instituted as a converting Ordinance primarily but for a people already converted and brought in it cannot be accompanied with such power from heaven because it is not managed according to pure Gospel-order nor upon a people rightly prepared and fitted so as the fault is not because there is a Government as the Vindication observes but not the pure Government nor the Government rightly placed And for his Charge against the purer Congregations as I know not any such doings amongst them so I will make no Apologie for them because that would bring them within the compasse of something like a crime and I know nothing but well by them The New Queres Folio 51 Of the Vindication propounded to the Honourable PARLIAMENT and ASSEMBLY Quere 1. WHether a bare Excommunication or Suspension from the Sacrament not backed with Authority of the Civil Magistrate be not like to prove an impotent and invalid and ineffectual means Whether it be not a far better way in point of Conscience and Prudence to admit scandalous persons to the Sacrament not actually excommunicated though they thereby eat and drink judgement to themselves then to deprive any to whom it really belongs Antiquere 1. Whether is there any excommunication or no For the Vindication questions it in calling it an invalid thing and if so How can any such thing be setled at all as an Ordinance in the Church Whether ought Authority to joyn it self with any thing so questionable as the Vindication would have it Since nothing hath proved more fatal Whether excommunication being granted be any such bare thing as the Vindication speaks on so impotent invalid and ineffectual without being Authorized from a power from men And whether the Ministers are to strike with the Magistrates Sword Whether all the differences about Excommunication be not from the want of true Church-constitution And whether a National Church be not too wide for the Ordinances and the Scabberd too big for the Sword And whether Solomons Temple and Christs be all of a largenesse so that one golden Reed will measure both Whether the old Temple that had Windows of narrow Lights be any pattern for the new Whether any thing of Prudence As admitting scandalous persons to eate their own damnation as the Vindication saith Rather then to deprive them to whom it really belongs be any Scripture-way of arguing which forbids us not to do evil that good may come thereby Whether any sin or offence be committed in such cases of deprivation of scandalous persons seeing though it may really belong to them yet the Church nor Dispenser not knowing any such thing nor judging but onely by the Rule of visible walking to the Word and the Rule of evidences there for Administration of Ordinances can faithfully administer but accordingly for they that walk according to this Rule peace be on them and on the Israel of God Whether the Law of God in this be not as equitable as the Law of Man which judges not of secrets nor takes cognizance of things unknown Whether it be not rather the scandalous persons onely sin who if he have a real interest will not live in the evidence of it nor walk by the Rule of Administrations that he may partake Quere 2. Fol. 51. Whether the suspending such persons from the Sacrament being no Ordinance of Christ without a totall Suspension will not be a means rather to harden And whether their admission be not rather a more probable way of reclaiming being accompanied with serious Admonitions Exhortations publike and serious Reprehensions Reasons 1. Because that such persons are more hardned by it totall exclusion onely working shame 2. Because against their receiving like Italians in Lent they will be holy for a day or two and make vows c. and may be so converted 3. Many then will read c. which would not do so before in an Hypocriticall conscience and the Sacrament is a Covenant which binds all receivers to reform 4. The Sacraments are so accompanied with Examinations Exhortations c. that ten to one would be converted by such admission rather then by suspension therefore Christ when he came to save sinners permitted them familiarly to him and his Ordinances Antiquere 2. Whether Excommunication according to the Vindication grounds being a questionable Ordinance as well as suspension one of them may not be as well made use on as the other Suspension as well as Excommunication upon his grounds Whether the Admonitions Exhortations Reprehensions Examinations be such as Christ appointed to make the Sacrament an Ordinance for all scandalous sinners to come to or rather to quicken and spiritualize the worthy receivers who receive according to the visible Rule of Administrations as the whole strain of Scripture precept and practise speak Whether all the three first Reasons presuppose not such a Church-constitution for Ordinances and partakers as the Scriptures never speak on For where is there any such constituted Church of scandalous and Italianated persons who were constituted according to the rule and for Corinth and the rest that had such bad Members they are not examples in that of gathering or constituting or administring but reforming as the Apostle who calls them to the rule of the Word This one mistake hath deceived many Whether Christ in permitting scandalous sinners to converse with him familiarly when he was here in the flesh be any rule of admitting all such sinners now to the mystery of his spiritual Ordinances And whether there be

Of the Vindication of the four Questions P. What of that C. Some of the learned for the Presbyteriall way are divided about setling and know not how to settle the great Ordinance of the Lords Supper upon the Kingdom or Nation P. How Any of our judgement divided I will not beleeve that Surely they are not like your Independent Brethren to crumble into divisions and severall opinions C. Look you now how you are mistaken I tell you again The Vindication-Book whose Author is as famous and able as your way affords hath writ a large Tractate for mixt Communions or Sacraments against some of that way that are against them P. Beleeve me if it be so I shall be at a stand I thought all of our side that had been for Presbytery had been all of a minde and none had broken out into Factions but they of the other side C. I love not this word Faction on any side yet till we see more I would not misinterpret any willingly You shall hear the reasons on both sides gathered up very narrowly without the passion for I would neither have passion to object nor to confute any thing but meerly Scripture and Reason P. I pray you what are the differences C. A reverend Brother of the Presbyteriall way answers certain Questions of anothers of that way which he it seems had propounded to the State to be considered on in the setling of things over the Kingdom and some others too in certain Printed Treatises have gone about to confute them so as his Questions which as he professes openly were writ onely for the advancement of Reformation were interpreted by those of the same way with him as an enemy of Reformation as an adversary and an obstruction to the work of Reformation and settlement of Church-Discipline as he saith P. O strange one of them thus censured by their own and by those whose advancement he hath sought so much in opposing himself against the new wayes of Independency and Separation as he calls them But well how differ they C. He holds in his Book of Vindication divers particulars concerning Church-Discipline and censures and the Administration of the Lords Supper wherein the other Brethren of the Presbyteriall-way differ from him As first He holds there is no precept nor president in Scripture for the suspending of any Member of a Congregation from the Lords Supper who is not at the same time excommunicated from the Church and all other Ordinances as well some of the other hold the contrary or mistake as he saith 2. That Matth. 18. 16 17. If thy Brother trespasse c. is not meant of the Church nor of excommunication nor suspension from the Sacrament which the other hold 3. That 1 Cor. 5. 5. to deliver such a one to Satan is not meant of suspension or excommunication from the Sacrament which the other hold 4. That 1 Cor. 5. 11. with such a one no not to eat is not meant of spiritual eating which the other hold 5. That Numb. 9. 1 10 11. is not meant of excluding any by way of Type from the Sacrament in acts of suspension but of totall putting out from all Ordinances for legall uncleannesses not spiritual 6. That Judas received the Supper or Sacrament as well as the other Apostles and that the Sop that was given him before he went out was after the Bread was distributed which some of the other deny 7. That the Minister hath fully discharged himself if he give warning to unworthy Communicants of the danger and then give it which the other hold not 8. That Ministers may as well refuse to Preach the Word to such unexcommunicated grosse impenitents for fear of partaking in their sin as to administer the Sacrament to them and they hear damnation in the one as well as eat damnation in the other That the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is as well a converting Ordinance as any other being reckoned amongst the Means of Grace and so to be administred to any unexcommunicated Member of a Congregation which some of the other deny That they put groundlesse differences betwixt Preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments 9. That the putting out of the Synagogue in John 9. 21 34 35. is no good proof of excommunication or suspension from the Sacrament 10. That the Authors Scriptures quoted in his fourth Question are not rightly applyed as his opposites say P. And are these the differences fully C. Yea excepting the Proofs on both sides for which I refer you to the Books themselves which all together are large P. But how conclude they C. The Author of the Vindication doth fairly shew them that they contend for what he doth grant them with advantage and yet they quarrel with him for denying it as he saith P. Methinks these are strange mistakes one of another and amongst these of our Presbyteriall side too C. And he hopes the Parliament will consider and take care that the Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing P. But how will some of our Ministers take this C. I know not that but I like him well in this but he goes upon one ground more then all the rest P. What is that C. That the very ground upon which divers of the more moderate and tender in the Presbyteriall way go is the the ground of all the growing and spreading of Schism and Separation Anabaptism and other Errours tending to them which yet they beleeve they so much preach against a strange mistake with them as he observes P. If it be so how pitifully are those Ministers mistaken in their own grounds and the best of them too to be so mistaken is the more to be wondered for I count the tenderest of them the best but this is yet a secret to me C. Yea and to them it may seem so too but I shall unfold the mystery of this Vindication-Book if I mistake not the suspending scandalous persons from the Lords Supper and some other thoughts of pertaking in their sins is it seems deemed by this Book Some principles or positions of Separation which if fomented as the Author insinuates may in time subvert the other principles of Presbytery as indeed they may being something inconsistent and of a better and more spirituall nature and I am of his opinion for I would have all of a colour and constitution All light or all darknesse and beleeve it your principles of a purer way will not long incorporate with any other the Ark and Dagon will not stand together and the way to overthrow the inventions of men is by taking in some principles of the Truth into traditions what hath made the Popish Hierarchy go down Not its own principles of Idolatry Will-worship and Tyranny But when there were some takings in of Reformation-principles as when they would go from Popery to Prelacy Popery fell much

not a spiritual difference betwixt Christ not offered and offered betwixt his conversing in the flesh for making up the mystery of Redemption and the mystery of Redemption made up and finished by the eternal Spirit in which he offered himself betwixt Christ in the flesh and in the Spirit or Ordinance Whether did Christ intend his ordinary or occasional conversing to be any rule for his Church or Kingdom in its Administrations or Ordinances which is a work of another form And whether this intermingling of carnal and spiritual notions be a Scripture way Whether ought we to force any consequences or inferences upon the Word for practise in administrations in things neither clearly nor intentionally for ought we see nor mystically directed appointed or instituted by Christ And whether such a ground once granted will not let in one kinde of will-worship as well as another And for that ten to one being converted so as he sayes Quere Whether it is not ten to one any will be a converted but rather hardned Quere 3. Fol. 53. Whether did Christ ever intend that none but true and reall believers should receive his Supper or did he not infallibly know that many unregenerate and impenitent should and would receive it And the Antagonists grant that close Hypocrites have an external right then if these why not others Christ having ordained the Sacrament of the Supper as well as the Word to be a savour of death to such and God hath his end in both the glory of his Justice in the one as well as of his Grace and Mercy in the other Antiquere Whether did not Christ intend that all should receive or communicate in outward admistrations by an external right And if so then what ground is there for the visible impenitent or known scandalous Whether if true saving faith were the one part of the Interest and the external right the other part of it there be any ground left for the other Communicants And whether that the Scriptures rule and purer practise of all Churches in the Gospel excepting when faln or beside the rule and the Scripture Cautions do not wholly exclude such scandalous impenitent persons pleaded for against all other forrain probable possibl rational or Rethoricating consequences and conclusions to the contrary Whether the glory of Gods justice in the judgement upon unworthy receivers be any ground to take in Communicants for condemnation since it is full against other Scriptures that Christ came not into the world to condemn the world and to save mens lives not to destroy them and he would not the death of a sinner And whether though finally condemnation be ordered for all such yet no such thing being formally externally dispensatively ordered any persons ought to be called in for condemnation in such a way Whether this be not quite against the nature of the Gospel dispensation Christ under the Gospel dispensing himself and giving out himself as a Saviour a Redeemer and in all the Gospel declining judgement I come not to judge the world reserving that work till he appear in his own day to condemnation of sinners this being onely his day of reconciliation to them Whether the Apostle in Rom. 3. where he saith But if our righteousnesse commend the righteousnesse of God is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance And not rather as we be standerously reported and some affirm that we say Let us do evil that good may come thereof doth not parallel this For the Apostle here though Gods righteousnesse and justice was set forth by his justice upon sinners yet he did not say as in the Quere is said Let us then do evil that God may be glorified or good may come thereof Quere 4. Fol. 53. Whether all Ordinances proving alike good or bad saving or damning and impenitent persons as well encreasing their damnation by hearing praying fasting c. What reason can be rendered by any rational Christian why such persons should not be admitted to the Sacrament as to any other Ordinance or not suspended equally from all Antiquere Whether any such consequence of admission or suspension from Ordinances ought to be grounded upon damnation or judgement but rather upon words of command and institution and Scripture practise And if any such appeared all these Consequences which the Vindication draws forth wringing blood and not milk from the Word might be saved and he need not go so far about which when all is done brings a soul but at best upon a probable specious or real coloured Argument Whether since the Vindication pulls down clear Scripture Texts and grounds in this controversie to weaken the building of his adversary he ought not in conscience first to have had a clear Word or Institution for the contrary practise and not onely probable and literally conclusive grounds that souls can stand at surest upon but like men upon Ice who are in as fair a possibility to fall as stand And whether having taken away the Scripture Texts for Presbytery it self he can well hold up any upon his grounds And whether is not this sceptial or doubtful way of reasoning upon Scripture neither pulling quite down nor building up a way rather to fill all the rooms with rubbish and at length neither to have new building nor old What man going to build a Tower sitteth not down first and seeth what it will cost him lest having begun and not able to finish all men begin to laugh at him saying c. But whether is not all this ado about Ordinances rather for want of a right and purer constitution of Churches which would save all this controversie about scandalous and impenitent sinners when the Church were not troubled with such where the Ordinances are P. Well I am by this time well perswaded and having heard all this for my part I cannot but see that in settling things suddenly upon the Kingdom and things thus questionable and unwarrantable in the way of Administration and a Kingdom so full of impenitent and scandalous sinners as Parochial Congregations general are there is danger of great sin and great trouble C. I will therefore adde two or three Arguments more and so conclude AN Experimental-Argument FOR PURE Churches and Ordinances THere is a spritual Antipathy betwixt Grace and Nature Flesh and Spirit the Flesh lusting against the Spirit and the Spirit against the Flesh and the more spiritual or more carnal the more these two contrary Natures work and the more powerfully against each other as in Sarah and Hagar Isaac and Ishmael and the lesse or more they can bear with each other As for example While Judas carnal nature or disposition uninflamed by Satan boyled and heightned not into any such grosse act as selling and betraying of Christ the disciples bore with him more and Christ himself as he was man and in a state of Infirmity could more endure him then upon the breaking out of his sin and so in Simon Magus in Ananias and Sapphira and others

whom the Apostles could no longer suffer not by way of discipline or inflicting Censure but by way of a spiritual contrarinesse to such grosse hypocrisie and sin discovered And so the experiences of all that are of a pure Gospel-temper will witnesse to this very Age in acts of spiritual fellowship and Community in all acts of Worship c. This is founded not onely spiritual antipathies and sympathies but in natural and civil natural things of a contrary nature bearing one another no lesse and things of a civil nature yet contrary doing the like Hence arise separations meerly natural and sensitive and rational Hence arises a particular Schism and separation in all the things of the world and a secret gathering and contracting of things from the contrary into the same kinde the common purity being lost as the Apostle implies by which Nature did at first more universally agree as if one common spirit had been in it And thus it was in the Churches of God at first when three four or five thousand did agree in one way of spiritual fellowship Doctrine breaking of bread and Prayers but we see there is not now such pourings out of spirit upon multitudes and Nations that a National-Church should be together in such a unity of spirit And under the Law there was even a weaker example in the people of the jews being taken out from the people of the world and naturally hating all that were common and unclean as the Gentiles And before the Law the people of God did gather into Families and particular societies as in Abraham c. And those Families the children of the Bond-woman and of the free never bearing but persecuting each other So as all of pure spiritual constitution cannot but experimentally finde a spiritual nature in themselves working them into a more glorious fellowship then that of the world The sum of the Argument If then there be two contrary natures of Spirit and Flesh if these cannot nor never could in experience of all Ages and according to the truth in Scriptures and example of all there bear each other into the same spiritual society or fellowship if nature it self in the creatures run out into antipathies and sympathies that is into particular gatherings and separations mutual opposings and resistings of each other when together Then spiritual and unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world and men of the world is warrantable But all this is undeniably true to the experience of all Therefore spiritual unmixt Communion and Fellowship from the world and men of the world is warrantable II. Argument from the Power of Spiritual Ordinances and Dispensations THe Gospel-Ordinances brought into the World a power and spiritual Law in them though in degrees and measures and several givings out as in Johns time and his Disciples in Christs own time and his Disciples and in the Spirits time and according to these times of manifestation believers were wrought upon in Johns time they came out to the Baptism of Water in Christs and his Disciples to the preaching of the Word in the Spirits time to the Baptism of the Spirit to a more mighty and glorious working and all these times of Gospel-manifestation had a prevailing losse and more upon the believers of these several times in drawing them out from the world in part though weakly in Johns time it is said Then come out unto him all Judea yet though they were Baptised of him they gathered not off into such particular societies as after The Kingdom of God then was but at hand in Christs time though his preaching was powerful yet he let out the glory of his spirit but sometimes with the Word reserving his more glorious manifestations for other times and even here though Christs preaching gathered in his Apostles and Disciples into some particular and neerer way to himself yet not many more nay he rather left many partly in that mixed condition of society he found them and so the Disciples Commission which was given was to preach but little yet of Church-gathering but by way of Prophecy as in Matth. 16. and 18. The Kingdom of God was but yet at hand not come In the Spirits time then the Kingdom of God was come and then a mighty operation and measure of the Spirit was powred out and then the believers through the powerful working were brought more off from the World and began to gather in closer to Christ and one another And now all power was given to Christ which was not before his Resurrection and now he sets up a Kingdom All power is given into my hands and now the Kingdom begins to be set up in the hearts and practice of believers and the Spirit to mold and cast the believers into Brother hoods and societies and the form of a Kingdom and now the Laws and spiritual policy are given out for ordering this Kingdom And we see how the people of God in Rome Corinth Ephesus Galatia drew off from the world in the things of the Lord We see then how the Word did begin to work Believers into a fellowship from the world and the more the spirit was given the more and more off from the world in all these several times And it is a rational truth and a clear conclusion even to meer reason that the more Christ and his Spirit is in any the more neer and close they will gather up to heaven and walkings with God and the more Christward any one is the more off still from the multitude of the world And thus the Ordinances of Jesus Christ in which the Spirit breathes so powerfully work men off from the mixed world into fellowship with the Lord and that spiritual fellowship makes them rejoyce more in one another then in any other that are more carnal The more men live to Christ the more they die to the world and are formed into the fellowship of his death and Resurrection The sum of the Argument If then the Ordinances and Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ had ever a power in some degree of prevailing upon the souls of Believers according to the manifestation of the Spirit and if this Spirit flowing from God and Christ carry up the soul to God and Christ according to the measure given to those Believers and if the more they are carried towards Christ the more they must come off from the world Then Congregational or Church-order wherein Believers are gathered into fellowship with God in Christ and one another from the world in the things of the Gospel and unmixt communion is warrantable But all this is undeniably true from the Word Therefore Church-fellowship and unmixt Communion is warrantable III. Argument IF mixed communion and society came in upon the Apostacie and falling away and Parochial Congregations were formed up afterward from such mixt Communion If as Antichrist prevailed so darknesse and corruption prevailed upon Believers If Churches were called Golden Candlesticks before and a Fellowship of Saints and the Body of Christ and Kingdom of God till they grew mixed If the mixt Congregations by Parishes came in first by Dionysius Bishop of Rome in the yeer 267 and in England by Honorius Bishop of Canterbury and people were onely made Congregations by conveniency of situation and the Law of civil Politie If Parishes were first the seats of Popery and after the seats of Prelacy and now fall under the Presbytery in the same kinde and notion of a mixed multitude Then mixt and Parochial Congregations are not that way and order of Christ for Ordinances which was the primitive way revealed and practised in the Gospel But all this is undeniably true from the best Historians Therefore not mixt Communion and Fellowship but pure and unmixt is the onely Ordinance of Christ Now I shall leave you for the present and commend particulars unto you and the Kingdom the one A rule of Evidences for Spiritual Communion drawn from the Scriptures the other A remarkable passage in the Book of Vindication The Rule of Evidences FOR Spiritual-Communion MAtth. 15. 26. Chap. 18. 19 20. Joh. 10. 16. Acts 2. 44 46. Chap. 19. 9. Rom. 1. 7. Chap. 16. 17 18. 1 Cor. 1. 1 10. Chap. 5. 4 5 11 13. and 12. 12 13 14 20 25 27. 2 Cor. 5. 6 7. Chap. 6. 14 15 16 17. Gal. 5. 9 10 12 13. Chap. Chap. 6. 16. Ephes. 4. 3 4 25. Chap. 5. 1 2 11 12 21 30. Phil. 3. 15 16 17. 1 Thess. 3. 6. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 6. 3 4 5. 2 Tim. 3. 5. Tit. 3. 10. Hebr. 10. 25. 1 Pet. 2. 9. 1 Joh. 1. 7. 2 Joh. v. 10 11. Revel. 2. 14 15 20. Chap. 18. 4. and 19. 20. A remarkable Passage in the Vindication-Book ANd if our Assembly and Ministers will but diligently preach against that Catalogue of scandalous sins and sinners they have presented to the Parliament and the Parliament prescribe severe Temporal Laws and Punishments against them and appoint good Civil Magistrates to see them duely executed inflicted I am confident that this would work a greater Reformation in our Church and State in one half yeer then all the Church-Discipline and Censures now so eagerly contested for will do in an Age and will be the onely true way and speediest course to reform both Church and State at once which I hope the Parliament will consider of and take care that our Ministers like the Bishops formerly may not now be taken up with Ruling and Governing but Preaching and Instructing which is work enough wholly to engrosse their time and thoughts FINIS Vindication fol. 1. Vindication fol. 3. Fol. 3. Fol. 6. Fol. 9. Fol. 14. Fol. 17. Fol. 28. Fol. 35. Fol. 40 41 c. Fol. 48. Fol. 49. Fol. 50. Fol. 57. Fol. 58. Fol. 59. Vind. l. fol. 59. Fol. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28. Rom. 14. See fol. 3 c. 1 Kings 6. 4. Luke 7. 34 c. 1 Cor. 11. Fol. 3 4 6 9. In Fol. 3 4 6 9 Rom. 8. Matth. 8. Ephes. 4. 8 11. Revel. cha. 2 3. Rev. 2. 1. 1 Cor. 1. 9. Ephes. 2. 19 c. 2 Cor. 6. 15 16 17. See the learned Mr. Selden in his Book De decimis