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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	aaron_n	act_n	lord_n	18	3	2.8388	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85314	Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1652 (1652)	Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624	107,263	123

that though there be Officers in a Church yet the people may ordaine which I am sure those Divines who are for the peoples power in ordination will never admit being crosse to their owne Principles and Scripture 4 We finde in the eleventh verse that after that was done Aaron did wave these Levites before the Lord so that they were not compleat till Aaron had done his Act whence I remember learned Master Cotton in his discourse with me said the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there did but answer to the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the New Testament and Aarons waving of them did answer to our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this clause only I remember but he had a larger answer which I tooke from him in discourse by which I remember he did enervate this Objection but I lost his notes with all my other helps in my shipwrack These men call for precept and example give you us one for this in the New Testament for you put us to that also we must give you them out of the New Testament yea Iwould goe further and desire them to give me one examplein the first six hundred yeares after Christ that ever the people did ordaine their Minister now this is strange to me that we can finde no foot-step of any such thing in the Scripture nor in the Ages next and yet that we should make it so frequent that they must ordaine most frequently for if every particular Church be Independent as now such a Church where I am in a small Village where the maintenance will not keep one Minister and therefore to be sure we cannot have more Ministers then if the Minister remove or dye if there come a new Minister the people must ever ordaine thus it must be in most places in England few will be excepted Iustin Mart. Apol 2 and if every new election must have a new ordination then it must alwayes be in the peoples power In the Primitive times there were Churches in Cities and Villages but that the Christians in Villages did ordaine their Officers I would gladly see that proved Ordination in those times was carried by a continued succession the Apostles ordained some Ministers those ordained others so downwards but never by the people Learned Dr. ●ell ener to 2. l. 3. c. 2. s 6 Ames seemes to answer this for whereas Bellarmine had said In novo Testamento ubicunque mentio fit manunm impositionis semper ea Apostolis caeterisque Episcapis nunquàm vero plebi tribuitur The Doctor answers to this In Historiâ novi Testamenti exempla babemus constitutionis Ministerii ejusdem etiam conservationis sed non restaurationis ejus aut reformationis post generalem Apostasiam omnia igitur quae pertinent ad plebem fidelem in tali casu non representantur ibi certis exemplis However these words seeme to carry it as if the Doctor did hold that the people had this power in a generall Apostasie yet I question whether the Doctor would looke upon the Churches of England now under such a notion neither would he deny the ordination of our Ministers to be valid for substance but yet here one might cast in something in times of Reformation it may be he saith 1 To Reforme the Minister is to Forme it now as it was first formed But the Ministry was not at first formed by the people ergo the Ministry cannot be now reformed by the people I thinke the Major will not be denyed for the Minor let any prove that According to this some will say We must have Apostles they formed the Ministers first we speake of ordination I say Non sequitur unlesse you can prove the Apostles ordained only quâ Apostles if so I know not how those Ministers whom the Apostles did ordaine could ordaine others but to be sure they did 2 I defire a text of Scripture that holds out this that the people may ordaine in a generall Apostasie 3 I doubt we shall rarely finde such times when there is a Society of godly Christians to ordaine but there is some Ministers also ordinarily there are Ministers who teach this people 4 It will be a question Whether the Apostasie hath been such as to require this for if Baptisme was not repeated but was thought valid though administred by a Romish Minister because he was set apart to the worke and kept the essence of the ordinance why might not the ordination administred by those Ministers hold as well 2 A second ground that makes me doubt is this it seemes strange to me that Christ should appoint extraordinary officers and make that a part of their work which the people themselves may doe Paul leaves Titus to ordaine but what needs that the people might well say what need Paul leave Titus to do that which we can doe our selves Frustra fit per plura c. the Apostles never needed but to preach and convert the people to the faith when they had done so they should have said we have now done our worke brought you to be beleevers you may now elect an Officer and ordaine him your selves the power is yours onely here would have been some trouble about baptizing since then I finde that this was part of thier Office then I cannot beleeve this is the peoples worke Paul might easily have left us a president in some Society of Christians that would have quieted all our disputes More might be said and is said by others but I see our New England Divines do almost yeeld it by giving power to some Ministers to ordaine in other Congregations Since nothing can be drawn from Scripture by precept or example to prove this hence some would draw it out by Argument Those who can do the greater may doe the lesse The people can doe the greater viz. elect Ergo The minor is as freely denyed as it is affirmed election is not the greater Scripture-light being judge That was the designe I doubt of making Ordination but an Adjunct for so indeed it would easily bee granted if election gives the essence and this only be an adjunct the people may well ordaine Yea and in a Church where there are Officers to Ordaine I know not why they who give the essence may not give the adjunct why should an adjunct be proper to the Officers only in that Church when the essence doth not belong to them Mr. N. W. Omnis quaestio non per aliud quod quaeritur babebit resolutionem nec ambiguitas per ambiguitatem sed ex elaris manifestis c. Irenae l. 2. c. 10. further then as members they joyne with the people for so it seemes the Officers elect as members and if you doe elect only as members why should you not also ordaine as members for election is the greater this the lesse The other Argument is the people are the first subject of the power of the keyes Ergo But this is not easily yeelded it was a

maintaine any Officers I wish there be not too strong arguments to prove that Covetousnesse and Ambition reigne too much amongst this kind of Separatists yet because the proving that there are true visible Churches in England will be of great consequence to the following Discourse as being the ground-work of it I will therefore produce one Argument to prove it and if I can prove that then it will necessarily follow there is a true visible Church on the earth which as I said I thought no Christian dares deny But what da●es not the vile heart of man think say or doe if God give it up to its owne blindnesse and wickednesse Master Burroughs making mention of Schusselburgius Iren. pag. 236. who collected the Sects Opinions and wayes of men soone after Luther saith There is not any one strange Opinion amongst us now but you shall finde it amongst them in terminis onely I remember not that one that hath taken some who though they acknowledge the Scripture yet thinke there is no visible Church on the earth Many were the errours that were confuted condemned in the first Synod in New England which errours I finde here in England but there was not this errour amongst them all to my remembrance it was wont to be said of Africa that every yeare it produced a new Monster but now it must be said of England that it hath produced such a Spirituall Monster as no Nation that owned the Scriptures ever did before The Lord save us from our owne hearts But I will now prove the Thesis as I said before there are true visible Churches in England Where there are many Societies of visible Saints and true Ministers consenting together to worship God in his holy Ordinances there are true visible Churches But in England there are many Societies of visible Saints and true Ministers consenting together to worship God in his holy Ordinances Ergo in England there are many true visible Churches The Major is so plaine that none who know what a visible Church is and what the Churches in the Gospel were but must needs yeeld it Here are the essentiall causes of a Church Ergo here is a Church First here is the materiall cause Visible Saints the Ministers also as visible Saints help make up the matter but as they are Ministers they make the Churches Organicall which is more 2 Here is the formall cause their consenting to worship God c. he that yeelds the essentiall causes and yet denies the effect hath lost his reason A Church is any company of Saints in body to set up what Ordinances of God they know This is a true Church and here God dwels In Hos 8.1 saith Mr. Burroughs He speakes of a Church as it is a Homogeneall body but I goe further the Separatists indeed will catch hold of his definition as Cyprian saith the Schismaticks in his time did of that text in Matth. 18.20 to which eh answered very well De unita Eccles and hence they will conclude we are Saints in body ergo we are true Churches But I pray are there not visible Saints also in the Churches from which you irregularly as I shall prove after did separate Are they not as good as your selves Did not you attain to that visibility of Saint-ship which you have while you were in those Churches Doe you set up the Ordinances of God so farre as you know or may know if errour doth not hinder as they doe from whom you have separated Nay you cannot doe it for you neither have men fit for Office nor will you endure to come under Officers and therefore if you looke into the ninth verse of the same Chapter Faciunt faves vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marciouitae Tertul. you shall finde Mr. Burroughs saying That those who love to live without Ordinances from under the government of Christ are those that love to live in the Wildernesse His words may be applyed to many of these Separatists who call for separation from the word as well as to those who are in the world But to my Argument All the quarrell will be about the Ministers The Presbyterians speake the same Language if the words in Body please you the Correlatum of Ecclesiasticall Power is a people embodied in a Church or a Spirituall corporation Gillesp Aar rod. 191. Iren. p. 102. and the consenting together c. as for Mr. Burroughs phrase there being in Body this they like well but so are not those visible Saints I mention say they But to take away that Cavill and so to returne to the Ministers you may know what Mr. B. meanes by being in body by shewing what makes a Church Covenant saith he I know nothing more is required but to manifest their assent to joyne with that Body to set up all the Ordinances of Christ so farre as they know And doe not those visible Saints actually manifest their assent by their continuall attendance upon their Officers in all the Ordinances of God and maintaining their Officers to that intent that they may have the Ordinances of Christ set up amongst them Shall the want of an Adjunct null the Church when as they do the very thing which they should expresse Put case you expresse your assent and doe not the things which you express your assent unto are you therefore a Church because of your expressing your assent What then are those who doe the things though they doe not expresse their assent in words but in Acts This is good and sufficient to prove the essence though both expression and doing is better but of this more after But the Ministers are those who spoyle all there are those who cannot deny there are Ordinances but there are none to administer them and this was the reason which one of the chiefe Members of a Church in London who did use to Prophesie as they call it in the absence or wearinesse of the Pastor gave to an honest man who was troubled because he fell off from the Church and exercising his gifts and turned Seeker I name not the man nor the Church but it is too true Now suppose I could not prove the Ministers to be true Ministers yet those visible Saints which I named before and those whom you call Presbyterians doe meet together conferre pray and fast together watch one over another and so if you wil consider them as Homogeneall Bodies they are as good Churches as those Separatists which have no Officers therefore still there are true visible Churches in England besides the Separatists and so my Argument stands firme But I will prove there are many true Ministers even amongst those whom you call Presbyterial Ministers thus Where there are men sufficiently qualified by God orderly at least for substance called to the Ministry and doe that worke which Christ appointed his Ministers to doe there are true Gospel-Ministers But in many of the Churches of England there are such men ergo in many of the Churches of

he can see more holy and able then himselfe and hence he feares himselfe and conceives such men being so holy and neare to God I feare he may reveale that to them which he conceals from me Now then if you can bring us men who expresse all these and walke truly by these rules you shall not need to goe to the State to get an Act for Toleration of tender consciences for I doubt not but Churches will be very tender of such God seldome leaves these to drink in any vile errour if for a time they be mis-lead he will discover his minde to them ere long I am assured But alas how farre are our people from these things I doe not rehearse them over againe but either let these be disproved to be no rules to judge by or if they be there are not ten as I said of such scarce to be found in England who separate from the Ministry and Churches and have betaken themselves to their private houses yea if we goe to our Congregationall Churches and examine these who plead for Liberty of Conscience we shall hardly finde these Rules observed The summe is you see if indeed you be right conscientious men and lead by a pure Conscience in the points wherein you differ you shall have that liberty that Christ would have allowed you and none will Domineere over your Consciences I know of nothing more can be alledged but I thinke I have taken in all that is brought against the Ministry and Churches It may be some would be apt to cast in this That the Ministers are no friends to the State ergo c. I shall not stay to give any answer to this more then thus 1 The Separatists were before this Government was erected to be sure the leaven of all was layed if not all actually separated 2 Where there are Ministers who are friends to the State it is all one for they separate for all that 3 Matters of State differ from the Church matters and they were also very intricate and darke especially as some conceive the Covenant and Protestation having been taken before therefore in intricate things more time should have been given till you had seene God tying a knot upon things 4 I know that many Ministers had not hung off so from the State but that they saw such Separatists to be wincked at they thought too much Obj. But you will say Grant all this that their grounds are insufficient why cannot you goe on in the worke of Reformation set up Discipline c. and let these alone how doe these hinder your worke from going on comfortably Ans If their grounds be insufficient Schisme was esteemed a great evill in the Apostles times those little matters in the Church of Corinth not comparable to ours how doth the Apostle speak against them so in the Ages after as may be seene in August contra Permeni c. Irenae saith Nulla ab eis tanta fieri potest correptio quanta est Schismitis pernicies l. 4. c. 26. So our Divines of late against the Papists to prove they were not guilty of Schisme have laboured strongly but outs doe but phansie grounds and make a tush at Schisme then why doe they not come backe againe to the Churches from which they have departed but before I give the answer let these things be observed 1 Few of these who have any true good in them but must and have acknowledged they have received it from the Ministers yea in those times when there was much more corruption in the Churches then now 2 Since they have left their Ministers they have got nothing many lost the savour once they had and some their comforts that were true and some of these I know have come home againe generally they run out of one errour into another that is their thriving 3 I never heard of one true Convert that was ever brought home to God amongst them all indeed the Principles they maintaine will not stand with sound conversion for no Law must be to awaken men and shew them their vile condition naturally worke of faith is easie teach no duty but all Christ as if men could truly teach Christ and no duty these things speake enough against them But I answer further If the Classicall and Congregationall men would but joyne together as they may if they will and set upon that worke they might doe something notwithstanding these persons but yet they cannot comfortably hold so long as these are tolerated Quest Why what harme have these done or will they doe Ans I shall tell you under severall particulars 1 They have much weakned the hands of the Ministry in the worke they were once the joy of their Ministers their Crown and had they held close to them still holding up their old Principles and walking reverently they had very much comforted their hearts and strengthened their hands now they came to the worke of Reformation they could in time of Persecution when Ceremonies and such trash abounded cleave to them and to those who were silenced they were a comfort but now those who should have joyned with their Ministers and carried on the worke with joynt prayers they are gone Cyprian compares the unity of the Church De unitâ Eccles 1 Kings 11.30 to Christs Garment which had no seame nor was divided Schisme he compares to the Garment which Abijah rent in twelve peeces that was not good for Salomons house how did it weaken the Nation thus have these rendings weakned our Churches exceedingly Vis unita fortior 2 They are now turned the greatest Persecutors the Ministers have for tongue persecution it is wheeled about and resides in this Generation Puritans Precisians were the old termes but now the termes are Baals-Priests anti-christians Priests and Black-coates are the soberest termes besides other jeeres and scoffes nay yet worse many of these would have the Ministers utterly rooted up we heard of a Petition drawne up by some of them to be presented to the house for that end they have threatned us what they would doe and I doubt not if the State would give them their wills this should be their first vote Down with the Ministry so that all the old Persecutors were not comparable to these they would have some downe but honour the calling these would cut downe all 3 They are the Nurseries of all Errous and Heresies where is there one society that is not tainted who can tell how grosse they are though we know many grosse enough for they meet in private houses who can tell what they vent there but if they get into Pulpits then they will vent something and thence we may guesse of the rest some of them have spoken a gainst the Scriptures yet some againe would have the Apocrypha to be Canonicall as a company of Anabaptists spent the after-noon of a Lords day to prove the Apocrypha to be so the London Ministers have set downe some bad enough in their

the people being but a homogeneall body to reject i.e. excommunicate an ossicer will cost more to prove had Reverend Mr. Hooker beene alive and saw what work Church-members make here in England in very many Churches I thinke it would have caused him to bethinke himselfe againe of the peoples power Something we heare of is done in a Church not farre from the place where he lived it cannot be kept close the light of that fire shines into England For the people to withdraw their subjection from such an officer when there are no other officers to joyne with them to excommunicate him this is not denied for by their subjection to him they made him their officer that was some part so they may withdraw their subjection againe But for Excommunication Mr. Cotton saith It is one of the highest acts of rule in the Church Keys p. 16 and therefore cannot be performed but by some Rulers Mr. Burroughs saith Iren. 51. If the Church be without officers they cannot doe that which belongs to officers to doe they have no Sacraments amongst them neither can they have any spirituall jurisdiction exercised amongst them onely brotherly admonition and withdrawing from such as walke disorderly for their owne preservation So then here is a way for the people to preserve themselves though they cannot excommunicate and those Texts which Reverend Mr. Hooker brings Matth. 7.15 and Phil. 3.2 doe not prove the Church as a homogencal body to have power to excommunicate their officers though they may prove withdrawing as also Rom. 16.17 may prove it For the reason of his consequence that staple rule ejusdem est Instituere destituere this maxime is turned every way sometimes to prove the people may excommunicate their officers because they doe Instituere The people in Election put forth no act of jurisdiction therefore they may put forth the highest act of jurisdiction in excommunication that there is no act of jurisdiction in election Doctor Ames acknowledgeth Ovas rationales possunt eligere sibi Pastorem sicut sponsa eligit sibisponsum non per jurisdictionem aut Gubernationem sed potius per subjectionem In the answer before he affirmes the same and else-where now what arguing is this Bellar. ener to 2 l. 3. c. 2. S. 19. Ib. S. 13. to argue from subjection to the highest Act of Jurisdiction there was no Authority in election for electio non cogit yet there is more power seene in Civill elections then Church-elections as I shall touch afterward but in Excommunication Authority appeares That also is denied that the people doe instituere in constituted Chruches and ordinarily what may be done in an extraordinary case is no ordinary rule Here the maxime is turned to prove that they may Jnstituere because they can destituere but that will be denyed unlesse it be in the sence before mentioned i. e. in what manner and how farre they did instituere i.e. by a subjection to be their Officer so they may with-draw their subjection from him and not owne him to be their Officer but to Excommunicate is more Quest But suppose this be granted that the Fraternity cannot excommunicate their Officer but with-draw their subjection they may you say and so he ceases to be their Officer but what is he now an Officer to other Churches A. If the with-drawing their subjection and rejecting be irregular then though they make him not their Officer de facto which he is still de jure yet his relation to the Church-Catholick visible doth still hold and another Church giving him a Call he hath then power actu secund● to administer the Ordinances there For instance the separatists cast off him whom before they chose for their Officer supposing now unlesse he will renounce his ordination he is no Minister doth he therefore cease to be a Minister how bufie some Congregationall Churches are in with-drawing from their Officers it is too manifest and many goe to the Anabaptists some turne Seekers and-if all the Members doe thus doe they now cease to be Ministers 2 But if the with-drawing be regular the cause just tried c. then that which is sufficient ground for their with-drawing from him is just cause why he should be excommunicated being pertinaciously scandalous or Hereticall as Mr. Hooker supposeth If then the case of a Church be so as they are cast by providence into some remote place where are no Churches besides to combine with then as their election of him c. as I said before may supply the want of ordination so this with-drawing in such an extraordinary case may be Analogum to excommunication but say our Divines if that Church be in combination with other Churches as now under a Classis then the people shall not need to stay there in their with-drawing but the case being judged and tryed by the Classis they as they ordained him when the people elected him the people consenting doe excommunicate him then as a man cast out of one Church is cast out from the Catholick Church visible so he who is cast out from being an Officer to this Church is cast out from being a Minister to the Church-Catholicke visible For the other Argument Burro Iren p. 50 Nort. resp ad Apoll. p. 76 78 the people conveying of power to an Officer I know of no power the people conveyes only a designation of such a person to officiate in this or that Society but their power they receive from Christ immediatly as our Congregationall men affirme and hence they act in his Name not in the name of the Church 5 The last answer I would give to this Proposall is this if you conceive this to be the only way of Reformation then you must give the Ministers strong proofe that you may ordaine the Ministers will as much question your power to ordaine as you question the Bishops power so that we take it for granted you are able to prove this because you are so punctuall you say for reforming by the word But of this practise I much doubt 1 My ground is because I finde not one Iota of any such thing in the New Testament Obj. Though you doe not in the New Testament yet in the Old Testament there is Numb 8.10 A. That place is the only resuge but 1 It is commonly answered That it is no faire arguing to goe to the Old Testament for one thing we would have and when another comes to the same Politie for an argument for their turne now to debarre them and tell them this is the old Politie either leave out the Jewish Politie altogether or else give others leave to fetch Arguments from thence as well as your selves 2 If you will goe to that Politie why may I not as well prove That the Civill Magistrate may ordaine as well as Moses did Aaron Levit. 8. 3 But in that Church at that time there were Officers Aaron and his sonnes thence if that be a rule it must follow