Patriarchs Prophets Apostles c. we separate Christ from the order of men by the honour and adoration which we performe vnto him that is to say saith hee againe We doe not offer thanks for him as wee doe for some other men but vnto him as being God of equall Maiesty with his Father But it is he himselfe indeed that by this exposition doth manifestly wrest the words of Epiphanius the circumstance whereof by him guilefully omitted doth cleerly conuince that they can by no means be taken as he expoundeth them His words are these f Epip haer 75. VeruÌ„ enimuerò eò quòd nos saepe dum in muÌ„do sumus fallimur erramus tuÌ„ inuiti tum voluntariè quòid quod perfectius est significetur pro iustis pro peccatoribus memoriam facimus pro peccatoribus quidem misericordiam dei implorantes pro iustis verò patribus Patriarchis Prophetis Apostolis Euangelistis c. Vt do minuÌ„ Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separemus per honorem quem ipsi exhibemus vt adorationem ipsi praestemus illud mente voieÌ„tes quòd dominus non est alicui homini adaequatus â—tiamsi millies vltra in iustitia degat vnusquisque homo quomodo enim possibile fuerit Ille enim est Deus hic homo ille in coelo hic in terra per reliquias in terra Verily for that whilest we are in the world we are often deceiued and go awry both vnwillingly and with our will to the end that that which is more perfect may be signified we make a memoriall both for the iust for sinners for sinners intreating the mercy of God but for the iust the Fathers the Patriarchs the Prophets the Apostles the Martyrs and Confessours the Bishops and Anchorites and the whole order that wee may separate our Lord Iesus Christ from the order of men by the honour which wee yeeld vnto him and may performe worship vnto him waighing this in our minde that the Lord is not compared to any man though a man liue in righteousnesse a thousand times and more for how should it be possible for the one is God the other man the one in heauen the other in earth by remainder of his body in the earth Where thou art to note gentle Reader that Epiphanius saith not as M. Higgons reporteth Wee make a memoriall of the iust of the Patriarchs c. but for them neither doth hee say onely we make a memoriall for the iust but we make a memoriall for the iust and for sinners meaning by sinners such as had beene publikely noted some way or other for euill life Now the phrase being one the act one both for the one and for the other how shall M. Higgons perswade vs that it was a praier for the one only a thanksgiuing for the other Epiphanius saith not so nor giueth any ground whereupon to conceiue it to be so and that this memoriall or commemoration was a praier for them that were thus remembred appeareth by S. Austin saying that g Aug. de cura pro mortuis gerenda cap. 4. Supplicationes pro spiritibus mortuorum quas faciend as pro omnibus in Christiana Catholica societate defunclis sub generali commemoratione suscepit ecclesia the church hath receiued vnder a generall commemoration to make supplications for the spirits of the dead euen for all that are dead in the Christian and Catholike society Now if it were a praier which was vsed for all that haue died in Christian society then it was a praier which was vsed for the Saints Martyrs Confessours c. Therefore Chrysostome faith that h Chrysost de sacerdot lib. 6. Deprecator est apud Deum vt hominum omnium non viuentium modò sed etiam mortuorum peccat is propitius fiat the Priest praied to God to be mercifull to the sinnes of all both quicke and dead I question not heere what construction latter times made heereof I know that this custome as it grew to be vsed grew to be questioned and because it seemed absurd to pray for them that already are in heauen which notwithstanding the church formerly had done as out of the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy I most cleerely prooued therefore though the forme of words were one and the same for all yet by interpretation they made them a praier for some onely and a thanksgiuing for the rest S. Austin I take it being the first that euer brought in that rule that i August de Verb. Apost ser 17. Iâ—uria est orare pro martyre he doth wrong to a martyr that praieth for him But let M. Higgons wrangle heereof all hee can by the very place of Epiphanius that which I say is plainly euicted For when he saith that wee often are deceiued and goe awry so long as we are in this world hee thereby expresseth the cause why they did make that memorial both for the sinners and for the iust there being none so iust but that that is verified in them that they are often deceiued and go awry Now will M. Higgons make Epiphanius to say of the Saints and iust men that because so long as they were in this world they were often deceiued and went amisse therefore now wee giue thanks for them It were very absurd to say so but the other way the words are cleer that because we are all subiect to sinne therefore we pray for all And if by this it be not plaine enough the rest shall make it more plaine For out of this reason issueth another of as great effect when he saith that this memoriall is made for iust and holy men that we may separate our Lord Iesus Christ from the order of men by the honour that we do vnto him Which honour wherein it standeth is vnderstood by those former words that that which is more perfect may be signified noting it to be the acknowledging of his most high and glorious perfection he onely being free from all spot and staine of sinne and vncleannesse but all other carying the marks of frailty and corruption betokened not in giuing thanks as I hope M. Higgons will confesse but rather in praying for them To which purpose he yet further more plainly addeth those other words And that we may yeeld worship to him But how Waighing in our mindes that there is no man compared to him though a man liue in righteousnesse a thousand times and more By which words it is cleere as the light that that separation whereof hee speaketh hath no intendment of the difference which M. Higgons mentioneth of giuing thanks to the one and for the other but that it concerneth righteousnesse and sinne it being to be knowen by this memoriall that all the Saints euen they that atteined to the greatest measure of righteousnes yet being men were subiect to infirmities and imperfections that so Christ alone may haue the glory to be transcendent and beyond the
seruice M. Bishop sheweth himselfe to be a man of a leaud and dishonest tongue that will make any comparison of the Church of Rome to our Church And thus we are come to an end of his long preface wherein what mature iudgement he hath shewed concerning a matter of so great moment it remaineth for the Reader to iudge for my part I iudge he did very ill bestow his time in blotting so many papers with so much folly and vntruth But his transition is woorthy to be noted Now to the rest of his questions saith he according to his own â—â—â—der whereas of twelue questions consequently handled by M. Perkins he speaketh not a word but onely passeth to an aduertisement in the end where hee thought least harme might befall to him Heere is some want of plaine dealing which may iustly cause his Reader to bee suspicious and doubtfull of him A confutation to D. BISHOPS answer to Master PERKINS his Aduertisement W. PERKINS An aduertisement to all fauourers of the Roman religion shewing as he weeneth that the said Religion is against the Catholike principles of the Catechisme that hath beene agreed vpon euer since the daies of the Apostles by all Churches Which principles be foure The Apostles Creed the tenne Commandements the Lords praier the institution of two Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords Supper 1. COR. 11. v. 23. 1. W. BISHOP I Had once determined to haue wholly omitted this goodly post-script because it containeth in manner nothing else but an irkesome repetition of that which hath beene I will not say twice before but more than twenty times handled ouer and ouer in this former small treatise notwithstanding considering both how ready many are when they see any thing omitted to say that it could not be answered and also for that these pointes heere reiterated are the most odious that he could cull out of all the rest to vrge against vs I finally resolued to giue them a short answer And further also by prouing their new religion to be very opposite vnto those old grounds of the true religion to requite him with the like that I die not in his debt Thus he beginneth The Roman religion established by the Councell of Trent is in the principall points thereof against the very grounds of the Catechisme the Creede the tenne Commandements the Lords praier the two Sacraments THe Catholike religion embraced and defended by the Church of Rome was planted and established there by the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul fifteene hundred yeeres before the Councell of Trent and hath been euer sithence by the Bishops of Rome their lawfull successours constantly retained and most sincerely obserued and maintained some articles thereof called into question by the Heretikes of this latter age were in that most learned generall Councell of Trent declared and defined And great meruaile it were if the principall points thereof should be against the grounds of the Catechisme which is in euery point most substantially expounded by the decree and order of the very same Councell Or is it credible that the Church of Rome with which all other ancient Churches and holy Fathers did desire to agree and which hath beene euer most diligent to obserue all Apostolicall traditions should in the principall points of faith crosse and destroy the very principles of that religion that hath been agreed vpon by all Churches euer since the Apostle daies as he saith Is it not much more likely and probable that the Protestants who slander all Churches euer since the time of the Apostles with some kinde of corruption or other and who hold no kinde of Apostolicall tradition to be necessary is not not I say more credible that they should shake those grounds of faith which come by tradition from the Apostles and haue beene euer since by all Churches agreed vpon I suppose that few men of any indifferent iudgement can thinke the contrary R. ABBOT M. Bishop is desirous to seeme to haue omitted nothing because many saith he are ready when they see any thing omitted to say that it could not be answered and yet he hath cunningly omitted the handling of twelue questions as I haue already noted which are more than the third part of the booke which he vndertooke to answer In that which here he hath sent vs he taketh vpon him as to answer M. Our religion and not Popery is the old religion Perkins so by way of requitall to prooue that our new religion as he calleth it is very opposite vnto the old grounds of the true religion But if his eies were open he would easily see that that new religion and the true religion are all one our new religon as to him it seemeth being indeed no other but that onely true religion whereby all the faithfull haue been saued from the beginning and so shal be to the worlds end And if he will haue our religion to be taken for a new religion he must first impeach those grounds of antiquitie wherby we haue hitherto iustified the same against his vaine and wilfull cauilations As for that which he saith that the religion now defended by the Church of Rome was planted and established there by the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul it is the begging of the question a fond presumption an idle headed dreame who but fooles and madde men beleeue it when they see the writings of the Apostles Peter and Paul and therein finde no mention of the religion that is now at Rome neither of the Pope nor of Purgatorie nor Pardons nor Iubilies nor Masse nor Images nor any other of that filth If the successors of that See had constantly reteined the faith that by the Apostles was deliuered we should now haue that religion at Rome which is taught in the Epistle to the Romanes which now is our religion and was then the religion of the church of Rome Of that religion those heretikes whom no otherwise he so nameth but according to the a Act. 24.14 Iewish phrase called nothing into question they only questioned impugned those additions and alterations wherewith the church of Rome hath defiled and disgraced that religion The Councel of Trent a mockerie of the world The Councell of Trent which declared and defined against them was neither learned nor generall It was a base and a vile collusion and meere mockerie of the world partially assembled by the Pope guilefully managed by his Agents directed wholly by his intelligence nothing there to bee concluded but what hee first approued yet all in sine left at his will by that damnable clause neuer heard of in any former Councel b Conc. Trid. sess 7. in princip sess 25. cap. 21. de reformat Salua semper in omnibus authoritate sedis Apostolicae Sauing alwaies and in all things the authoritie of the See Apostolike Some Diuines there were of qualitie and worth who gaue their assistance in that businesse but as for the Bishops of which
not Apostolical traditions which appeare certainely so to be and yet woorthily we reiect those vnwritten doctrines and counterfet traditions of the Papists which are falsely fathered vpon the Apostles It is by these vnwritten doctrines and counterfet traditions that the grounds of our faith are impeached and shaken We therefore cannot be said to shake the grounds of faith who retaine the meere simplicity of those grounds and refuse all other strange and bastard stuffe but they shake the grounds of faith who become patrons of such tradition coloured with the names of the Apostles when notwithstanding they plainely crosse the written doctrine of the Apostles 2. W. BISHOP But let vs descend to the particulars wherein the truth will appeare more plainely Thus beginneth Master PERKINS with the Creede First of all it must be considered that some of the principall doctrines beleeued in the Church of Rome are that the Bishop of Rome is the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholike Church that there is a fire of Purgatory that Images of God and Saints are to be placed in the Church and worshipped that Praier is to be made to Saints departed that there is a propitiatory sacrifice daily offered in the Masse for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead These points are of that moment that without them the Roman religion cannot stand c. And yet marke the Apostles Creed which hath beene thought to containe all necessary points of religion to be beleeued and hath therefore beene called the key and rule of faith This Creede I say hath not any of these points nor the expositions made thereof by the ancient Fathers nor any other Creed or confession of faith made by any Councell or Church for the space of many hundred yeeres This is a plaine proofe to any indifferent man that these bee new articles of faith neuer knowen in the Apostolike Church and that the Fathers and Councels could not finde any such articles of faith in the bookes of the old and new Testament Answer is made that all these points of doctrine are beleeued vnder the article I beleeue the Catholike Church the meaning whereof they will haue to be this I beleeue all things which the Catholike Church holdeth and teacheth to be beleeued If this bee as they say wee must beleeue in the Church that is put our confidence in the Church for the manifestation and the certainety of all doctrine necessary to saluation And thus the eternall truth of God the Creatour shall depend vpon the determination of the creature And the written word of God in this respect is made insufficient as though it had not plainely reuealed all points of doctrine pertaining to saluation And the ancient Churches haue beene farre ouer-secene that did not propound the former points to be beleeued as articles of faith but left them to these latter times Thus farre Master PERKINS Wherein are hudled vp many things confusedly I will answere briefly and distinctly to euery point The first is that in the Apostles Creede are contained all points of religion necessary to be beleeued which is most apparantly false as the Protestants themselues must needes confesse or else grant that it is not necessary to beleeue the King to be Supreame-head of the Church or that the Church is to be gouerned by Bishops or that we are iustified by Christs iustice imputed to vs or that there be but two Sacraments or that the Church seruice must be said in the vulgar tongue or that all things necessary to be beleeued to saluation are contained in the Scriptures To be short not one article of their religion which is contrary to ours is conteined in this Creede of the Apostles therefore to affirme as he doth all necessary points of religion to be contained in this Creede is to cast their owne religion flat to the ground and to teach that not one point of it is to be beleeued this Creede may neuerthelesse be called the key and rule of faith because it containeth the principall points of the Christian religion and doth open as it were the doore vnto all the rest and guide a man certainely vnto the knowledge of them by teaching vs to beleeue the Catholike Church which being the pillar and ground of truth 1. Tim. 3.15 Ioh. 16.13 directed and guided by the spirit of truth will alwaies instruct her obedient children in all truth necessary to saluation Then saith M. PERKINS The eternall truth of God the Creatour shall depend on the determination of the creature Nothing lesse for Gods truth is most sincere and certaine in it selfe before any declaration of the church but we poore creatures that are subiect to mistaking and error should not so certainely vnderstand and know that truth of God vnlesse hee had ordained and appointed such a skilfull and faithfull Mistris and interpreter to assure vs both what is his word and what is the true meaning of it Like as pure gold is not made perfect in it self by the Gold-smithes touch-stone but other men are thereby assured that it is true and pure gold euen so the word of God doth not borrow his truth from the Church but the true children of God are by the holy Church assured which is the same his word If we did hold as we do not that the written word containeth all points of doctrine necessary to saluation yet were it most necessary to relie vpoÌ„ the Catholike churches declaration both to be assured which books of scriptures be Canonicall which not whereupon Saint Augustine a man of far better iudgement than any of these daies said Con. Epist. Iud. cap. 5. that he would not beleeue the Gospel vnlesse the authority of the church mooued him therunto as also to vnderstand them truly because the words of holy Scripture without the true meaning and sense of them do but deceiue men and lead them into error and to that end haue alwaies beene and yet are by Heretikes abused to draw others after them into destruction The like may be said of other ancient Creeds and confessions of faith which holding the Apostles Creed did adde some few points vnto it namely such as were in those daies called into question by Heretikes of greater fame and who were followed of many not touching in particular diuers other articles generally beleeued of all true Christians or else by soâ—e fewe and obscure men onely questioned Wherefore to argue that no other points of faith are to be beleeued but such as are expressed in ancient Creeds is to cut off a great part of our faith Lastly it is most vntrue to say that those ancient Fathers and Councels knew not of these articles of faith by him mentioned for they haue most plainely taught them in their writings yea and expresly condemned of heresie most of the contrary positions now againe reuiued and holden by the Protestants as in those seuerall questions I haue before prooued R. ABBOT How M. Pirkins vnderstood that all necessary
good by the touchstone because no exposition or sense of Scripture is to be admitted the doctrine whereof is not to be iustified by other Scripture and they that bring other senses and meanings do but deceiue men and leade them into errour as other heretikes formerly haue done and as the Papists now doe abusing the Scriptures to draw others after them into destruction Heereof also enough hath beene said g Of Traditions sect 21. before whereof I wish the Reader duely to consider for his satisfaction in this point That which he saith of other ancient Creeds and Confessions of faith that they containe not all points of Christian doctrine I eaily admit but yet let him vnderstand that it is a maine preiudice against them that neither any ancient Creed nor any exposition of the Creed or confession of faith conteineth sundry pointes which they now make to be matters of the meaning of the Creede Let him shew that euer any ancient Creed or expositour of the Creed did vnderstand or deliuer that the name of the Catholike church in the Creed hath any speciall reference to the Church of Rome that the Catholike church is to be defined as they now define it by being subiect to the bishop of Rome that the certaine declaration of the Canonicall bookes and of the true sense of Scripture is alwaies infallibly to be expected from the sentence of that Church that all Christians are fully to beleeue and wholly to relie vpon that Church for resolution of all points of faith necessarie to saluation Which and such other points made by them matters of the Creed because neuer any ancient writer hath found to be conteined or intended in the Creed therefore we iustly affirme them to be new Creed-makers coiners of new articles of faith and thereby peruerters and corrupters of the true Christian faith As concerning the Articles mentioned by M. Perkins now holden by the Romish Church that the Pope is Christs Vicar and head of the Catholike Church that there is a purgatorie fire after this life that images of God and of Saints are to be worshipped that praier is to be made to Saints departed and their intercession to bee required that there is a propitiatorie sacrifice daily offered in the Masse for the sinnes of quicke and dead M. Bishop answereth that the Fathers haue most plainly taught them in their writings and expresly condemned of heresie most of the contrary positions But what Fathers are they and in what writings haue they so done Surely if the Bishop of Rome in the ancient Church had beene taken to bee the Vicar of Christ and head of the Catholike church it cannot be but that we should haue very currant and frequent and memorable testimonie thereof as a matter vniuersally receiued and euery where practised But now let M. Bishop shew vs one let him shew so much as one that for diuers hundreds of yeeres after Christ did euer dreame of any such thing Which though indeed he cannot doe yet hee telleth vs of that and the rest that in those seuerall questions he hath before prooued what he saith whereas hee hath not spoken of any more of these points saue onely one and in that one point cannot be said to haue prooued any thing because whatsoeuer hee hath said standeth hitherto reprooued And surely if he haue no better proofes than hitherto he hath brought in all the questions that hee hath handled the Protestants will but scorne him as a very vnproouing disputer and aduise him to bestow his time a while longer in the Schooles to know what it is to prooue 3. W. BISHOP Touching beleeuing in the Church which he thrusteth in by the way we vse not that phrase as the very Creed sheweth following therein S. Augustine with others who hold that to beleeue in a thing is to make it our Creatour by giuing our whole heart vnto it in which sense we beleeue not in Saints nor in the Church albeit some other ancient Doctors take the words to beleeue in not so precisely but say that we may beleeue in the Church and in Saints that is beleeue certainly that the Catholike church is the onely true company of Christians and that to the lawfull gouernours thereof it appeâ—taineth to declare both which bookes be Canonicall and what is the true meaning of all doubtfull places in them so we beleeue the Saints in heauen to heare our prayers to be carefull to pray for vs and to bee able to obtaine by intreaty much at Gods hands in whose high fauour they liue Thus much in answer vnto that which M. PERKINS obiecteth in generall Now to that he saith in particular R. ABBOT a Greg. Nazia de sp sancto orat 6. Sâ—â—reatuÌ„ est quo pacto in ipsum eredimu c. Non enim idem est in aliquem credere de eo credere nam illud diuimt atis est hoc cuiusuis rei It is one thing saith Gregory Nazianzene to beleeue in any one another to beleeue of or concerning him the one belongeth to the Godhead the other is vsed of euery thing And heereby hee prooueth that the holy Ghost is God because wee beleeue in the holy Ghost By which argument our Sauiour Christ also teacheth vs to acknowledge him to be God when he saith b Ioh. 14.1 Yee beleeue in God beleeue also in me where c Hilar. de Trin. lib. 9. Vniens se fidei dei naturae eius vniuit c. deumse per id docens cum in eum credendum sit ab his qui in deum credant vniting himselfe to the beleefe of God saith Hilarie he vniteth himselfe also to his nature thereby teaching that he himselfe is God for that they who beleeue in God must beleeue in him I might further enlarge this point by the testimonies and expositions of d Aug. in Ioan. tract 29. de ciu dei l. 18. ca. 54. Euseb Emissen Ruffin Venant in symbol Apost Austin Eusebius Emissenus Ruffinus Venantius and others who all acknowledge that that phrase belongeth to God and is not to bee applied to any creature But it shall not neede because the Elucidatour of the Romane Catechisme according to the doctrine of the Catechisme it self as he pretendeth though quite contrary both to their doctrine and practise otherwise doth tell vs that e Elucidat Catech Roman c. 9. q. 5. Cùm dicimus nos credere in deum patrem in filium in sp sanctum phrasis haec loquendi significat nos ita credere deum patrem filium spiritu sanctuÌ„ vt etiam in eis omnem fiduciam nostram collocemus quam in deo solo non autem in creaturis ponere possumus ex quibus tamen ecclesia composita est when wee say wee beleeue in God the Father in the Sonne in the holy Ghost this phrase of speaking doth signifie that wee so beleeue God the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost as that also we place all
our confidence in them which we are to put in God onely and not increatures of which notwithstanding the Church consisteth Which exposition wee acknowledge conteineth the very trueth agreeable to Gods word and doe wish that they would alwaies continue constant therein But they doe heerein as their vsuall maner is what by euidence of truth they are forced to say in one place for the maintenance of their owne traditions and superstitions they vnsay it or qualifie it in another And in this sort M. Bishop heere dealeth who first inclining somewhat to that construction alreadie mentioned and telling vs that to beleeue in a thing is to make it our Creatour by giuing our whole heart vnto it alleageth notwithstanding that some ancient Doctours take the words to beleeue in not so precisely but say that wee may beleeue in the church and in Saints heereby to make way to his absurd conceits which none of the ancient Doctours dreamed of it is true indeed that Epiphanius and Cyril haue vsed that maner of speech by adding the preposition in to the rest of the articles I beleeue in one holy Catholike church in one Baptisme in the remission of sinnes in the resurrection of the body in the life eternal but yet making thereof no other construction than we do as if the article were away To beleeue in the church was with them as M. Bishop saith to beleeue certainly in the Catholike church to be the onely true company of Christians and thereof we contend not wee beleeue the same as well as they though not in M. Bishops meaning which neuer was any part of their meaning that the Catholike church should be meant in any speciall maner of the church of Rome But whereas he addeth it is another part of their construction that to the lawfull gouernours thereof that is as he intendeth to the Pope and his Cardinals and Bishops it appertaineth to declare both which bookes be Canonicall and what is the true meaning of all doubtfull places in them he verie shamefully abuseth the ancient Doctours of whom there is not one that hath noted any such matter to be conteined in the Creed If hee know any let him acquaint vs therewith if hee know none let him confesse to his Reader as he must that he hath sought to deceiue him with a lie The same I say of beleeuing in Saints for which of the ancient Doctours hath taught vs out of our Creed that we are to beleeue in them He telleth vs what they meant by it that wee beleeue the Saints in heauen to heare our praiers to be carefull to pray for vs and to be able to obteine by intreatie much at Gods hands But what a strange man is he that will tell vs what men meant by words which they neuer spake Surely to beleeue in Saints is no antiquitie but nouelty and the deuice of him who by beleeuing in Saints seeketh to draw men away from beleefe in God The Apostle telleth vs that f Rom. 10 17. Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Thereupon Basil gathereth thus g Basil Ethit reg 80. Si quicquid ex fide non est peccatum est fides verò ex auditu auditus autem pâ—r verbum Dei est ergo quicquid extra diuinam Scripturam est cùm ex fide non sit peccatum est If whatsoeuer is not of faith bee sinne and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God surely whatsoeuer is beside the Scripture of God because it is not of faith is sinne Let M. Bishop then shew vs some word of God some warrant of Scripture that it is one point of faith to beleeue in Saints or if hee cannot so doe we must rest perswaded as we are that to beleeue in Saints is to sinne against God And if we may not beleeue in Saints then neither may we pray vnto them for h Rom. 10.14 how shall they call vpon him saith the Apostle in whom they haue not beleeued And seeing praier is i Grego Moral lib. 22. cap. 13. Vera postulatio non in oris est vocibus sed in cogitationibus cordis not a matter of the lippes but of the heart how can wee beleeue that the Saints in heauen heare our praiers when as the word of God telleth vs that k 1. King 8.39 it is God only which knoweth the hearts of all the children of men Againe seeing God hath himselfe named vnto vs the Mediator by whose intrety l Mat. 3.17 Ephe. 3.12 for whose sake he wil accept vs and in whom he will be m Iohn 14.13 glorified for the granting of our requests who n Rom. 8.34 sitteth at the right hand of God and o Heb. 7.25 euer liueth to make intercession for vs how can we call it faith and not rather impudent presumption that we of our owne heads should set vp euery Saint in heauen to be a Master of requests and disturbe that order which God himselfe hath appointed for our accesse to him Admit that in generality they pray for the consummation of their brethren they pray in fellowship of loue not by authority of mediation as ioined in affection with vs not as by specialtie of fauour appointed to be patrons for vs for in that respect it is true which Saint Austin telleth vs that p August in Psam 64. Solus ibi ex his qui carnem gustaverunt interpellat pro nobis of all that haue beene partakers of flesh it is Christ onely in heauen that maketh intercession for vs. To conclude we haue heard before out of the Catechisme that our beleeuing in God requireth all our confidence and trust to be placed in God onely Accordingly Cyprian saith that q Cyprian de dupl martyr Non credit in deum qui non in eo solo collocat totius felicitatis suae fidutiam he beleeueth not in God that placeth not the confidence of all his happinesse in God onely But beleeuing in Saints cannot be vnderstood but to import putting of trust and confidence in them Therefore we cannot beleeue in Saints but with the ouerthrow of our beleefe and trust in God And that the Popish beleeuing in Saints importeth the putting of their trust and confidence in them it plainly appeareth as by other their offices of deuotion so specially by their Ladies Psalter wherein they blasphemously vse to the Virgin Marie those words whereby Dauid professed his trust in God r Psalter Mariae Psal 7. Domina in te speraui de inimicis meis libera animam meam Psal 10. In domina confido propter dulcedinem misericordiae nominis sui psal 21. Quia ego speraui in gratia tua sempiternum a me opprobrium abstulisti Psal 45. Domina refugium nostrum tu es in omni necessitate nostra Psal 53 Domina in nomine tuo saluum me fac O Lady in thee haue I hoped deliuer my soule from mine enemies I
do not beleeue the one Catholike Church because they doe as well not beleeue it as beleeue it And as for the communion of Saints their learned Masters doe commonly cassier it out of the Creed and that not without cause For by the Saints vnderstanding as the Apostles did all good Christans whether aliue or departed this world they that deny praier to Saints and for the soules in Purgatory haue reason to reiect the common society and enter course that is betweene the Saints and the mutuall honour and help which such good Christian soules doe yeeld and afford one to another R. ABBOT The holy Catholike church which wee beleeue in the Creed being the communion of Saints is onely one The Catholike Church only one which is the body of Christ whereof all the faithfull are members being ioyned into this society by one spirit Visible and Inuisible being but circumstances cannot argue any multiplication of the church because the inuisible church importeth all them and them only who are the true members in their time of the visible church For in the visible church the name of the church properly belongeth to them onely who liue by faith and by the spirit of Christ the rest are not members but a August in 1 Ioan. epist tract 3. Sic sunt in corpore Christi quomodo humores mali as euill humours in the body which wait their time to be purged out In the meane time because all professe to seeke Christ and to serue him and our eies cannot distinguish betwixt them that truely doe so and them that doe not therefore visibly and to vs all goe together vnder the name of the church though many there be hypocrites and time seruers who with God and to his sight are no part thereof So then the church visible and inuisible in substance are the same they differ only in respect and M. Bishop knoweth that respects change not the natures of things and therefore those different respects doe nothing hinder but that the church in nature is alwaies one As touching the holinesse of the church M. Bishop in the deliuering of our opinion keepeth his woont He saith The holines of the church imputatiue and reall that we imagine it to be holy by the imputation of Christs holinesse to the elected brethren and not by the infusion of the holy Ghost into the hearts of all the faithful Whereas we doe not imagine only but by the word of God beleeue and know that the church and all the members thereof are holy not onely iudicially by the imputation of Christs holines but also really by the infusion of the holy Ghost begun in this life by b Rom. 8.23 the first fruits of the spirit and fully to be perefected when the promise of Christ shall be fullfilled c Mat. 5.6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousnesse for they shal be satisfied Againe he excepteth against vs that we cannot abide the name Catholike in the true sense of it Of the true sense of the name Catholike But what is that true sense That is saith hee they will not beleeue the true church to haue beene alwaies visibly extant since the time of the Apostles But what ancient father did euer set this downe for the true sense of the name Catholike If any let him be brought foorth If none why doth he contrary to his owne prescription introduce a new exposition of an article of our beleefe Cyril in his Catechisme bringeth in all the meanings of the name Catholike that he could learne that the church is so called for that d Cyril Hierosci Catechis 18. Illuminat Catholica vocatur quia per vntuersum sit orâ—em terrarum diffusa c. Et quia doret Catholicè hoc est vniuersalitèr sine vllo defectu vel differentia omnia dogmata quae deberent venire in cognitionem c Et quòd omne genus hominum ipè subiugat et quia in vniuersum curat omne genus peccatorum c. hab turque in illa omne genus virtutis c. it is vniuersally spread thorow the whole world for that it teacheth vniuersally all doctrines that are to be known for that it subiecteth to it alkinde of men for that it healeth all kinde of sinnes for that it hath in it all kind of vertues but of M. Bishops meaning that it should be alwaies visibly extant he had learned nothing Surely S. Ambrose saith e Ambros Hexaem lib. 3. cap. 2. Ecclesia habet tempora sua persecutionis pacis videtur sicut luna deficere sed non deficit obumbrari potest deficere non potest The church hath her times of persecution and peace it seemeth as the Moone to faile but it faileth not it may be ouershadowed but vtterly faile it cannot If the church may be as the Moone so ouershadowed by persecution as not to be seene then it is not necessary to be alwaies visibly extant and if that be not necessary then M. Bishop hath plaied heere the false merchant to tell vs that the church is therefore called Catholike because it is alwaies visibly extant Albeit there is somewhat also to be obserued concerning the name of the true church that we may speake to that time of the visibility of the church which M. Bishop specially intendeth For if wee call that the true Church which truely hath the outward vocation and calling of the church then we deny not but that the church in the time of Antichrist must bee and hath beene alwaies visibly extant because Antichrist was to possesse and hath possessed the visible state of the church But if by the true church we meane those members of the church which are truely correspondent to the vocation and calling of the church in faith and obedience vnto God then the true church is not alwaies visible because the greater part being the woorse doth many times oppresse the better and weaker part and proudly carrying it selfe in the opinion and confidence of it selfe persecuteth and driueth into corners all them that gainesay their traditions and wilworships which by their owne authority they establish to delude thereby and frustrate the word of God And thus we say that the true church in the time of the exaltation of Antichrist was in a sort inuisible the publike state of the church yeelding it selfe in thraldome to his tyranny and persecuting the true members of the church who disclaiming his obedience sought to keepe themselues entire and faithfull vnto God Whereas hee further addeth for the notation of the name Catholike that the church was so called as being generally spred into all countries we willingly acknowledge the same as being before acknowledged by the ancient church and defended against the Donatists who by other expositions sought to draw the name vnto themselues as the Papists now doe Onely wee adde that caution which Bellarmine himselfe hath deliuered as necessary for himselfe that f Beliarm
de notis eccles cap. 7. Si solae vna prouincia retineret veram fidem adhuc verè propriè diceretur ecclesia Catholica dummodo clarè ostenderetur eam esse vnam eandem cum illa quae fuit aliquo tempore vel diuersis in toto mundo if one only countrey should retaine the true faith yet the same should truly and properly be called the Catholike church so that it might cleerely be shewed to be one and the same with that which hath been at any time or times ouer the whole world For by this rule nothing hindreth but that our church though now it be not receiued generally in the greatest part of the Christian world yea if it were but in one onely country yet may truely and properly be called the Catholike church if it be prooued to be one and the same with the church which at any time heeretofore was spred ouer all the world But that our church is the same with that which at the first was spred thorowout the world it is very euident as Tertullian teacheth vs to prescribe g Tert. de praescript adu haeret In eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae by consanguinity or agreement of our doctrine with the doctrine of that church For by the Gospell which the Apostles preached the church was founded thorowout the whole world h Iren. lib. 3. cap. 1. Quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt postea per dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrae futurum The gospell which the Apostles preached they afterwards by the will of God deliuered to vs in the Scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith The same Gospel deliuered to vs in the Scriptures we receiue we adde nothing to it we take nothing from it as we finde it so we teach it Our faith therefore is the same with the faith of that church which at the first was planted thorowout the whole world There is no cause then for vs to forsake our owne church or to thinke that the same began with Friar Luther as this dreamer imagineth which by so plaine deduction is approoued to be the same with the first church and consequently to be truely and properly the Catholike Church Finally saith he they beleeue no church in all points of faith But doth his wisedome finde it in the articles of the Creed that we are to beleeue any church in all points of faith The church how farre to be beleeued in points of faith We are taught there to beleeue that there is a holy catholike Church which is the communion of Saints but nothing doe we finde there of beleeuing any Church in all points of faith We beleeue the Church in points of faith so farre as she yeeldeth herselfe like a faithfull and obedient spouse to be guided by the voice of her Lord and husband Iesus Christ But if the Church preferre her owne will before the word of Christ as the proud harlot of Rome doth it should be a wrong to Christ to beleeue the Church and a way to set vp humane errour in stead of diuine truth It is not the voice of the Church but the word of the written Gospell which God hath appointed as Irenaeus euen now hath told vs to be the foundation and pillar of our faith For the words of the Church are many times the words of errour and vntruth and therefore if we should relie our saluation vpon the credit thereof wee should indeed relie vpon an vncertaine ground and erring guide but the word of the Gospell is alwaies one and the same without any variablenesse or vncertainty and therefore safely may wee relie our saluation thereupon Now therefore it cannot be said but that wee alwaies beleeue one holy catholike Church according to the profession of faith specified in the Creed though sometimes and in some things we doe not beleeue that is credit the visible Church as touching points of faith because the Church sometimes teacheth vs to beleeue otherwise than God hath taught Which though it seeme strange to M. Bishop in that language which he hath learned to speake yet to vs it is not strange who in the Canonicall histories of the Churches both of the old and new Testament do so often see them diuerting and turning from the right way As for that hee saith that our learned masters doe commonly cashiere out of the Creed the addition of the cōmunion of saints it is but a fruit of the harnessing of his face and he is therefore bold to say it because he hath learned not to be ashamed of any thing that he list to say That by the Saints are there meant al good Christians all the faithful whether aliue or dead we will not denie Communion of Saints implieth neither Purgatorie nor praier to saints but that either praier to saints or praier for soules in purgatorie belong to this communion of Saints we neuer yet learned and are too old to learne it now For as for the Saints in heauen i Aug. de vera relig cap 55. Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute honorandi propter imitationem non propter religionem adorandi We honour them with loue as Austin saith but not with seruice to follow them by imitation not to adore them by religion and therefore not to pray vnto them Further entercourse as yet there is none betwixt them and vs because k Esay 63.16 they know vs not nor are acquainted with vs nor can we any way acquaint them what wee say vnto them Now beside the Saints triumphant in heauen wee acknowledge none but those that are militant vpon the earth because the holie Ghost diuideth the whole body of the Church into l Eph. 1.10 Col. 1.20 those that are in heauen and those that are in earth and pronounceth them all m Reu. 14.13 blessed that are dead in Christ as who rest from labours and sorrowes and thereby are discharged from all Purgatorie paines But if there be any soules in Purgatorie to which all good Christian soules should yeeld and affoord their helpe to doe them ease and this be one matter of the entercourse and communion of Gods Saints why doth the Pope violate the communion of Saints by withholding from those tormented soules that helpe and ease which he is able to affoord them Surely if he cannot doe them ease then is he an impudent liar and a notable impostour and cozener of the world If he can do it then is he a cruell wretch that without compassion suffereth poore souls to lie broiling in those fierie flames But we rather approoue the former member of this diuision and take him for a liar both for that without warrant hee thrusteth in Purgatorie into the articles of our faith and with lesse warrant challengeth the same for a iurisdiction to himselfe 13. W. BISHOP 10 The forgiuenesse of sinnes
naturalem dormit nihil eorum scit quae geruntur in domo vicini tamen viuit licet contra naturam vitae nihil sentiat in somno Idem in illa vita fiet sed alia meliore ratione Proinde sicut mater desert infantem in cubiculum ponit in cunas non vt moriatur sed vt dormiat quiescat suauitèr ita ante Christum multò magis post Christum ingressae sunt ingrediuntur omnes animae credentium insinum Christi He that sleepeth a naturall sleepe knoweth nothing of those things that are done in his neighbours house and yet he liueth though contrarie to the nature of life he perceiue nothing in his sleepe The same shall come to passe in that life to come but in other and better sort As therfore the mother bringeth the childe into the chamber putteth it into the swadling clouts not to die but sweetly to sleepe and rest so before Christ and much more since Christ all the soules of the faithful did and do enter into the bosome of Christ The sleepe then wherof Luther speaketh is in the bosome of Christ where faithfull soules are sequestred from the affaires and troubles of this world and liue with him in perfect blisse and therefore is no such sleepe as M. Bishop dreameth or rather leaudly deuiseth by wilfully misconstruing Luthers words And this is that position of Luther whereof Sleidan speaketh who mentioning that ghosts and apparitions of spirits were very common in Popery and that the soules of the dead as they were thought to bee did make much stirre and trouble after buriall and tell why either they were condemned or for the time tormented in Purgatory fire and heereupon solicited their neighbours kinsfolke and friends to helpe them in that miserie and that the vsuall maner was that they requested either some vowes to be paid which they had made to the Saints or that Masses and sacrifices to such a number might be performed for them whereby the opinion of Purgatorie and of the Masse woonderfully increased to the great aduantage and gaine of the Priests telleth consequently as indeed the euent euery where hath prooued that r Sleidan Comment lib. 9. Sed postquam innotuit aliquid roboris assumpsit Lutheri doctrina paulatim euanuerunt eiusmodi spectra Docetenim Lutherus è sacris literis mortuorum animas quiescere supremum iudicij diem expectare turbas autem illas strepitus formidolosos ac phantasmata per Satanam excitari dicit qui nullaÌ„ praetermittit occasionem vt impios cultus falsas opiniones in animis hominum coufirmet Christi seruatoris nostri beneficium extinguat when Luthers doctrine began to be knowen and had gathered some strength these ghosts and apparitions by little and little vanished away For Luther teacheth saith he out of the holy Scriptures that the soules of the dead are at rest and do wait for the last day of iudgement meaning that where they are at rest there they abide vntill the day of iudgement without that wandring and walking which was commonly fancied of them and that those stirres and fearefull noises and sighes were caused by Satan who omitteth no occasion to confirme in mens mindes vngodly deuotions and false opinions and to extinguish the benefit of Christ our Sauiour Now hee that waigheth these words may easily see how M. Bishop plaieth the Skoggin in the application of them there being heere nothing at all directed against praier to Saints and that that is intended against Purgatory not being for that the soules are so soundly asleepe as he obiecteth but for that they are at rest in peace with Christ if they belong to him not subiect to any torments nor hauing any cause of those complaints which Satan cunningly pretended vnder their names As for the complaint of Brentius we doe not doubt but that he might finde cause of it in manie who notwithstanding did liue vnder the name of Christians of the professours of the faith and Gospel of Christ The Prophets the Apostles complained of such and yet the pearles then were not the woorse esteemed for that swine trode them vnder their feete The Pagans of old saw many taking vpon them to be Christians who yet were men of most wicked and damnable conuersation and they tooke occasion hereby to condemne all Christians and Christian religion and will M. Bishop say that they did well in so doing Å¿ Aug. in Psal 30. coÌ„ 3. Quà m multos putatis fratres mei velle esse Christianos sed offendi malis moribus Christianorum How many thinke you would willingly be Christians saith S. Austin but doe stumble and are offended at the euill behauiour of them that are Christians And what will M. Bishop say that there are no such amongst them yea amongst their Popes their Cardinals their Bishops are there not that liue as if there were no God no hell no resurrection no iudgement to come yea that sticke not sometimes to professe that they thinke so If hee will denie it their owne stories shall reprooue him If hee must needs confesse it then must he needs confesse also that he hath very idlely brought in this speech of Brentius against vs. That euery meane godly man shall at the last day bee made equall in glory with the Apostles is not Luthers assertion but M. Bishops calumniation Hee affirmeth a paritie of Christians as they are Christians as touching mutuall reckoning ech of other in this life but no paritie or equalitie of reward or glory in the life to come By occasion of the name of brethren hee saith that t Luther in 1. Pet. c. 1. Fraternitas est quâ—d Christiani inter se vt fratres esse debent nec vllum prorsus discrimen admittere siquidem omnes in communi vnum ChristuÌ„ vnum baptisma vnam fideÌ„ vnumque the saurum habemus Non possum equidem pluris esse quà m tu quod tu babes ego habeo c. Christus aequè meus est ac D. Bernardi tuus non minus atque D. Francisci c. vnam Christiani omnes fraternitatem habemus quam in baptismo sumus consecuti de qua nullus diuus plus habet quà m ego ac hi. Nam quanto ille pretio redemptus est tanto sum 〈◊〉 redemptus c. brotherhood is for that Christians ought to be one amongst another as brethren and not make any difference at all for we all in common haue one Christ one baptisme one faith one treasure I cannot bee of more woorth than thou and what thou hast I haue the same also Christ is mine as well as S. Bernards and S. Frances hath no more right to Christ than thou All we that are Christians haue one brotherhood which wee haue atteined in baptisme whereof no Saint hath more than thou and I. For with what price he was redeemed with the same was I redeemed It cost God no lesse for me than for the
is sinne it being the vse and worke of our warfare a Heb. 12.4 to fight against sinne and the grace and power of God assisting vs whereby we ouercome sin He alleageth that S. Iames calleth it only temptation and then first sinne when it conceiueth and I answer him that S. Paul calleth it sinne before it be temptation b Rom. 7.8 sinne wrought all maner of concupiscence in me and therefore in temptation it is sinne See heereof the question of originall sinne handled at large before and of this place of S. Iames the sixt section 33. W. BISHOP Now to conclude this passage if you please to heare to what height of perfect obseruance of the Commandements the Euangelicall Preachers haue brought their followers in Germany vnto by teaching the Commandements to bee impossible and that onely faith iustifieth and that good works haue no reward in heauen and such like Iacobus Andreas a famous Lutheran shall enforme you De planetis who writeth thus That the whole world may see these men alienated from the Papacie and to put no confidence in works De Planetis therefore they doe no good worke at al. In stead of fasting they feast and are drunken day and night in lieu of Almes they oppresse and pill the poore they haue changed praying into cursing and blaspheming the name of God so prophanely that no Turkes nor Saracens commit the like impietie against Christ for humilitie there raigneth pride disdaine crueltie and riot in apparell c. and much more to the same purpose And that this truth may be confirmed by the testimony of two sound witnesses Musculus a man of no smal account among them thus reporteth of his brethren in the Lord. De prophetia Christi Such now adaies is the condition of the Lutherans that if any man list to behold a great number of Knaues robbers malitious persons coseners vsurers and such like deceiuers let him but enter into a Citie where the Gospel is taught and there he shall finde good store of them and a little after Surely it is true that among Heathens Iewes Turkes and other Infidels none can bee found more vnruly and that lesse esteeme of honesty and vertue than the Euangelicall brethren with whom all things passe currant and nothing almost is blamed except vertue For the diuell hath shaken off all their bands and turned them loose R. ABBOT And what M. Bishop are there not thinke you The vertuous conuersation of Papists as many knaues in Rome as in any city of the Lutherans What are there no Minions Courtisans there that serue for the vse of the Pope his Cardinals Did you not remember what was said of Rome by one of your owne Poets Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Depart from Rome all yee whose care is to liue holily Did you not consider that it was easie for vs to retort your words to your selues and to say If you please to heare what good effects the Popish doctrine of iustification by works doth bring foorth looke to the Iesuits Catechisme to Watsons Quodlibets and to the rest of those bookes of the same argument written by Popish Priests concerning the Iesuits who are the Puritane-Papists and the verie quintessence of their religion and yet are there described to be no other but Epicures Atheists fornicatours Sodomites coseners traitours proud malitious contentious couetous and what not Now wee know that the Iesuites will say that you are as leaud and naught as you haue described them to be Like will to like and get you both together there is no such goodnesse in either of you as that you should take vpon you to question our goodnesse And if I should rippe vp this matter of your vertues to the full I should but cause a lothsome and filthie stinke troublesome both to my selfe and to the Reader Therefore I rest my selfe with that answer that I haue a Sect. 15. and of satisfaction sect 19. before giuen vpon the like occasion Onely I must note it for one of M. Bishops Sycophants tricks that hee reckoneth it amongst our doctrines that good works haue no reward in heauen 34. W. BISHOP Hauing done with the Creed and ten Commandements we must now come to our Lords praier Master PER. beginneth with it thus The Lords Praier is a most absolute forme of praier now in this wee are taught to direct our praiers to God alone Our father c. and that onely in the name and mediation of Christ for God is our father onely by Christ therefore to vse any mediation of Saints is needlesse Ans We allow our Lords praier to be a most perfect forme of praier yet hold that many other sort of praiers may be made vnto God very acceptably as sundry other praiers vsed by Christ and set downe in the Gospell doe teach vs and therefore to argue that because one praier of Christs making is directed to God that no other may bee made to any Saint is very childish Wee gather praier to Saints out of S. Pauls requesting the Romans and Corinthians and others to pray for him and out of the mediation of the woman of Cananea to Christ for her daughter and the Disciples speaking to Christ for her with such like both out of the old and new Testament For if it had been either needlesse or bootlesse to haue praied vnto God any otherwise than in the name and by the mediation of Christ then S. Paul would not haue requested the helpe of mortall mens praiers to God for him and if poore sinners praiers may helpe vs much more may the intercession of the glorious Saints do who are in far greater fauor with God See the question of intercession of Saints Againe if that only forme of praier were to be vsed neither were it lawfull to pray to Christ himselfe neither could it bee prooued thereby that we should praie in Christs name For there is no expresse mention of Christs name neither any petition for Christs sake For God may bee truely called our Father in that he immediately createth and giueth vs our soules which is more than our bodies that we receiue from our carnall fathers R. ABBOT If the Lords praier be a most perfect forme of praier The Lords praier excludeth praier to Saints as M. Bishop alloweth it to bee then are we perfectly thereby directed both to whom and for what we are to praie It cannot bee called a most perfect forme of praier wherein there is any want of either of these things To adde any thing to that that is perfect is to denie the perfection of it and to take away any thing from it is to make it maimed and vnperfect Seeing then by the most perfect forme of praier we are instructed to pray no otherwise but to God onely it followeth necessarily that praier to Saints is vnlawfull because it is exorbitant from that most perfect forme M. Bishops exception heereto is
very childish and vaine that other praiers may be made vnto God very acceptably and that other praiers are vsed by Christ and set downe in the Gospel because in other praiers there may bee nothing and in the praiers set downe in the Gospel there is nothing but what is consonant and agreeable to this form For though praier be conceiued in other words yet it varieth not from this forme so long as wee pray to no other but to whom in this forme wee are directed nor for any other thing but what in this praier is concluded And albeit M. Bishop can alleage that in the Gospell and otherwhere there are other praiers vsed and set down beside the Lords praier yet in the whole course of Scripture can hee finde vs no example of any praier but to God alone If hee did bring vs example of praier to Saints somewhat it were but now it is idle that he alleageth that there are praiers in other words But he telleth vs that they gather praier to Saints out of S. Pauls requesting the Romans Corinthians others to pray for him And well indeed they may if they can prooue that S. Paul in the same sort praid to the Romans others to pray for him as they pray to the Saints in heauen to pray for theÌ„ But if that which S. Paul did were but a familiar request of mutuall charitie wheras their praier to Saints is a seruice of religious dutie and hee did beseech them onely as fellow members of the same body to giue assistance to his praiers not as Mediatours as they make the Saints to obteine for their sakes the acceptance thereof then doth M. Bishop shew himselfe a ridiculous man that will draw from the one of these a conclusion of the other Or if he will needs confound the one of these with the other it shall be well that his disciples that craue the help of his praiers do take their ghostly father and set him vp like sweete S. Rood and deuoutly kneele downe and pray vnto him But if to craue ech others praiers be piety and to doe that ech to other which they doe to the Saints be damnable idolatrie then it is apparent that they gather that which was neuer sowed and doe colourably alleage these instances for the abusing and blinding of simple men As for a Matt. 15.22 the woman of Canaan we reade that she praied to Christ for her daughter but we doe not reade that her daughter praied to her and wee finde that by her praier she shewed her compassion but that shee tooke vpon her any power of mediation wee doe not finde b Chrysost ex varijs in Math. locis hom 17. Vide prudentiam mulieris non rogat Iacobum non obsecrat Ioannem neque pergit ad Petrum nec intendit ApostoloruÌ„ chorum non quaesiuit mediatorem sed pro omnibus illis poenitentiam accepit comitem quae aduâ—cati locum in pleuit sic ad summum fontemperrexit But whereas hee addeth the disciples speaking to Christ for her hee sheweth little discretion therein because it appeareth not that they spake for her but onely requested their master to send her away as being offended at her importunate crying And so little helpe is there out of this example for praier to Saints as that Chrysostom rather giueth vs hereby a note to except against it Behold saith he the wisedome of this woman she requesteth not lames she intreateth not Iohn she goeth not to Peter she looketh not to the company of the Apostles she seeketh for no mediatour but in stead of them all she taketh repentance for her companion which supplied the place of an aduocate and so went to the well-head And whereas he hath before demanded of her c Ibid. Dic mihi mulier quemadmodum ausa es cùm sis peccatrix iniqua accedere ad Chrisium Ego inquit nouâ— quid agam c. propterea descendit propterea carnem assumpsit honâ—o factus est vt ego ei audeam loqui Tell me woman how durst thou being a sinfull and wicked woman thus come to Christ he bringeth her in answering I know what I doe therefore descended he from heauen therefore did hee take flesh and became man that I might be bold to speake vnto him It should seeme then that it is a point of godly wisedome neither to goe to one Saint nor other but to goe directly to Christ himselfe and not to be terrified by the conscience of our sinnes because for that purpose he became man that wee might be bold to come to him and to seeke of him the remission thereof But M. Bishop addeth another wise reason and well beseeming his learning If it had been either needlesse or bootlesse to haue prated vnto God any otherwise than in the name and mediation of Christ then S. Paul would not haue requested the helpe of mortall mens traiers vnto God for him As if S. Paul when hee requested them to pray for him did intend that they should pray otherwise for him than in the name and by the mediation of Iesus Christ He praieth for them and they pray for him not to be heard ech for others sake but all to be heard for Christs sake d Aug. cont epis Parmen l. 2. c. 8. Sic oratio pro in uicemmembroruÌ„ omniuÌ„ adhuc in terra laborantium ascendit ad caput in quo est propitiatio pro peccatis nostris Thus as Austen saith the praier of all the members labouring vpon the earth ech for other goeth vp to the head who is gone before into heauen in whom is the propitiation for our sinnes Now therefore M. Bishop very vainly inferreth that if poore sinners praiers may helpe vs much more may the intercession of the glorious saints because poore sinners praiers doe not helpe vs by way of mediation but onely in louing care they ioyne themselues to pray with vs that we may both be helped for Christs sake whereas Popish intercession of Saints intendeth not so much that the Saints should pray for vs for Christs sake as that Christ should accept vs for the Saints sake As for the fauour of the Saints wee know God fauoureth vs no lesse than hee fauoureth them being redeemed with the same bloud and by one spirit sealed to the same hope and no more will hee suffer an elect to perish on earth than he will suffer a Saint to perish in heauen Whatsoeuer M. Bishop will plead for their fauour sure we are that they haue no fauour in this respect and therefore without assuming any thing to themselues they haue left vs to depend vpon Christs fauour as they haue done Now heere againe see saith he the question of the intercession of Saints whereas he hath taken paines to skip ouer that question also and hath said nothing of it But remembring himselfe hee goeth further heere and saith that if that onely forme of praier were to be vsed neither were
man should answer him in this sort The thing that he reporteth is indeed a very lie and a tale meerely deuised by themselues but yet it goeth for a tradition at Rome and he will heereupon haue it to be beleeued But that which Holinshed setteth downe is a matter of record extant and to be seene in the ancient u Inter leges S. Edwardi cap. 17. Lambert de priscis Anglor legib lawes of our land and therefore hath testimony sufficient to mooue vs to giue credit vnto it And that the matter might not rest vpon the silly poore credit as he speaketh of Holinshed onely of whom notwithstanding I may assure any man that he was a man of much more fidelity and honesty than M. Bishop is I cited also Stow as a witnesse thereof a man knowen to haue beene too well affected to the Romish religion so as that for his partiality that way hee is commonly alledged by themselues as a most authenticke authour specially by Parsons in his three Conuersions of purpose by him to thwart M. Fox the vttermost he can and therefore of whom M. Bishop cannot doubt but that he found it in good record x In lib. Constâ—â— tut London as he professeth to haue done or else he would haue made no such mention of it Now what might be the cause that he could heere see Holinshed and could not see Stow but that he desireth to make some shew of exception where notwithstanding he himselfe knoweth that iustly he can take none 7. Now we see that Stow for countries sake findeth more fauour with him than Polydore Virgil whom I cited as testifying Siricius Bishop of Rome to be y Answer to the epistle sect 8. pag. 60. a noueller in forbidding the mariage of Priests and he saith that I prooue it by the worshipfull verdict of Polydore Virgil Surely Polydore Virgil was no Protestant he was a writer of their own and deserued well of them a man of great learning and knowledge of history one that would write nothing in fauour of vs and therefore his verdict in reason and equity should be strong for vs. Yea that which he wrot he wrot by the warrant z Polyd. Virgil de inuent rer lib. 5. cap. 4. Siricius primus sacerdotibus diaconis vt ait Gratianus dist 82. coniugio interdixit of Gratian the Collectour of the Decrees the founder of their Canon Law and saith no more than the receiued Glosse of the Canon Law mentioneth as a thing commonly receiued a Dist 84. Cum in praeterit in glossa Dicunt quòd olim sacerdotes pâ—terant contrahere antâ— Siricium Men say that of old before the time of Siricius Priests might marry Being then a man of so good worth and speaking vpon so good ground doth M. Bishop with the flout of a worshipful verdict thus scornfully turne him off But it is nothing with him thus to spurne at their owne writers when they stand in his way and therefore telleth vs afterwards that Matthew Paris the Monke who wrot three hundred yeares ago b Reproofe Pag. 2â—9 did ignorantly and saucily reprehend Gregory the seuenth for forbidding men to be present at the Masses of maried Priests whereas c Matth. Paris in Willielm 1. ex Chronico Sigeberti anno dom 1074. Matthew wrot the conceit and opinion of many that liued in that time and borrowed the same from Sigebert the Monke that liued before him 8. I come at length to examine how in the processe he maketh good that horrible crimination which he hath expressed in the title of his booke of my abusing mangling misapplying falsifying both scriptures and fathers Now whereas a man in the entrance of this accusation would expect some great and waighty matter which might worke some impression in the Reader the more strongly to apprehend the rest that followeth see how coldly hee beginneth for want of better matter with a ridiculous and childish cauill that by the very beginning it may be conceiued how idlely he carrieth himselfe in his whole discourse In my Epistle d Epist dedicat to the Answer to D. Bishops epistle to the Kings Maiesty I noted the necessary vse of the course intended by his Highnesse as touching the answering of the dedications and supplications of these Popish Proctours for the discouering of the impudency of the petitioners for the gaining of such as may be gained to the acknowledgment of Gods truth and that as Saint Bernard saith though the heretike arise not from his filth yet the Church may be confirmed by the faith From these words he taketh his example of my misapplying the sentences of the fathers because Bernard meant not thereby e Pag 7. to disswade any man from the Romane faith and doth in that discourse describe those heretikes to be such as denied Purgatory and praier for the dead and inuocation of Saints c. Where I pray thee first to obserue that the words by me alledged import only a phrase of speech no sentence or argument for proofe They serue fitly to signifie the thing by me intended but for any waight they haue one way or other it had beene all one to haue set them downe as mine owne words without adding Bernards name And who knoweth it not to be a thing vsuall to borrow the phrases and speeches of Poets Oratours Philosophers yea of heretikes of schismatikes of Apocryphall bookes or writings without respect what they meant that spake them so long as they fitly expresse the minde of him that vseth them Bernard meant not by those words to disswade men from the Romane religion no more did Aratus the Poet meane to disswade men from Paganisme by those words f Acts 17.28 For we are also his generation the generation of God and yet Saint Paul vseth them to that purpose Neither did Menander by those words g 1. Cor. 15.33 Euill words corrupt good maners intend to reproue them that denied the resurrection of the dead which he himselfe beleeued not and yet the same Apostle forbeareth not to turne them that way and will M. Bishop enter an action against the Apostle for misapplying the Poets words Neither did Petilian the Donatist meane it well and yet who doubteth but that by his words it may be truly said h Apud Aug. cont lit Petil. lib. 2. cap. 8. Laqueo traditor perijt laqueum talibus dereliquit Iudas the traitour perished with a halter and to such as himselfe he left the halter Let M. Bishop take an example of this vsage from M. Higgons their late conuert who alleaging it to be said of him by the Apostles words i Gal. 5.7 He did run well who did let him that he did not obey the truth saith thereto thus k Motiues booke 2. in the preface Vnto these men I returne a louing a faithful and iust answer founded in the demand of an eminent professour of their Gospell Will you be any longer
condition of fraile and sinfull flesh Now because no part of this could be imported in that memoriall if it were a thankesgiuing for the Saints therefore whether M. Higgons will or not it must necessarily be taken to haue been a praier for them And heereof there is one argument more in the last part of the comparison when he saith of Christ that he is in heauen and of the Saints that they are in the earth by their bodies yet resting in the earth Where it hath some reason that they should say We pray for them as respecting that their bodies lie yet in the dust of the earth expecting a blessed and happy resurrection which we craue to bee reuealed vpon them but to say that they meant to giue thanks to God for that the bodies of the Saints lie buried in the earth it were senslesse and absurd And because it is confirmed vnto vs by the Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy that the Church did pray for the dead in respect of the resurrection therefore wee cannot doubt but that the memoriall heere spoken of by Epiphanius vsed for the Saints in respect of their bodies in the earth was a praier for them to wish their full and perfect consummation by the resurrection from the dead My former conclusion therefore hence deduced standeth good that sith the ancient Church thus praied for the Saints and Martyrs therefore that certaine it is they did not pray vnto them And because they thus praied for the Saints whose soules they were assured were in heauen therefore they praied for the dead without respect of Purgatory which now is made the onely ground and reason of praier for the dead 38. The next matter for which he questioneth me is concerning the opinion of the Greeke churches as touching Purgatory and prayer for the dead My words are such as might haue serued to weaken his motiue had hee not beene resolued without any motiue to remooue and run away What could he haue better to resolue him then that which I say that the Papists themselues confesse that Purgatory was not receiued or beleeued in the Greeke Churches and therefore that it is certaine that they had no respect of Purgatory in their praier for the dead I did not onely say that the Papists confesse it but I cited the places of their confession Alfonsus De Castro saith k Alfons De Castro adu haeres lib. 8. tit de Indulgent In antiquis scriptoribus de Purgatorio feré nulla mentio potissimum apud Graecos Scriptores quae de causa vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est a Graecis creditum Of Purgatory there is in a maner no mention at all with the ancients but specially with the Greeke writers for which cause Purgatory is not beleeued of the Greekes vntill this day Yea not of the Greekes only but of the Armenians also he acknowledgeth that l Ibid lib. 12. de purgatorio vnus ex notissimis erroribus Graecorum Armeniorum est quo docent nullum esse Purgatorium c. they teach there is no Purgatory calling it an errour well knowen concerning them both The words of Roffensis their great and holy Martyr I cited out of Polydore Virgil m Polyd. Virg. de inuent rer lib. 8. cap. 1. ex Roffensi De Purgatorio apud priscos nulla vel quà m rarissima fiebat mentio sed Graecis ad hunc vsque diem non est creditum esse Of Purgatory there was none or very rare mention made amongst the ancient Fathers yea and with the Greekes it is not beleeued till this day Thus did they ingenuously acknowledge as the truth is and did it nothing stagger M. Higgons to finde this so plainly acknowledged Did it make him nothing doubt of his imagined mutuall dependance of Purgatory and praier for the dead Surely he was a very voluntary conuert or else he might easily haue seene that it is no good connexion to say They praied for the dead therefore they beleeued Purgatory but rather they beleeued not Purgatory therefore they praied not for the dead in any such meaning as the Papists now doe He might haue remembred that which I told Doct. Bishop that many amongst vs of custome and of humane affection of loue doe vse many times words of praier for the dead who notwithstanding from the bottome of their hearts doe vtterly defie both Purgatory and the Pope 39. In another place hee saith that it is n Book 1. part 2. cap. 3. ¶ 4. num 2. to our great disreputation that I name the Albigenses as professours of the same faith and religion which we now prefesse But why Forsooth he knoweth no cause himselfe but referreth his Reader to Parsons the Iesuit in his treatise of the three conuersions of England Yea M. Higgons would you make Parsons his narration a motiue of your recantation Would you giue heed to him whom you knew by the testimony of his owne fellows to be a man of Belial an infamous wretch a meere politizing Atheist and therefore likely if it were to serue his turne to deale with the stories of the ancient Christian Martyrs as he hath done with M. Foxes story carying himselfe in all that worke like a very Porphyrie or Iulian applauding himselfe and seeking to bee applauded in a iollity of forcing all things euen against the haire to scorne and mockery You say the Albigenses in their opinions followed the Waldenses as indeed they were the same some part of them onely being so called of the towne wherein they dwelt and would you beleeue Parsons concerning the opinions of the Waldenses who o Exam. of Fox his calen cap. 3. num 13. Of these Waldēses see at large Simon Goulart Catalog test veritatis lib. 15. Where thou shalt see how leaudly Parsons hath dealt with them disclaimeth Aeneas Syluius who was afterwards Bishop of Rome testifying their faith and doctrine vprightly and faithfully as of his owne knowledge that so he may giue way to other either carelesse or malicious reporters who impiously fathered vpon them strange paradoxes in no other sort than Friar p Edm. Campi decem rat cap. 8. passim Campian lately dealt with vs Yea and is not ashamed to cite q Three Conuers pag. 2. c. 10. num 29. Prateolus and Sanders for witnesses thereof whose ioy it hath been to finde out any thing were it neuer so vntrue which they might report opprobrious and disgracefull to them I doubt not but that the Waldenses and Albigenses might happily in some things be otherwise minded than we be and what are they in the church of Rome all in all things of one and the same minde but if wee respect the substance of their faith and doctrine as we may discerne the same not only by r Aeneas Sylu. de Origen Bohem cap. 35. Aeneas Syluius but also by ſ Alfons adu haeres passim Alfonsus De Castro and specially by t Sleidan Comment lib. 16.