but_o these_o church_n also_o pray_v for_o both_o and_o such_o a_o prayer_n evident_o prove_v a_o purgatory_n bellarmin_n cite_v cap._n 9_o n._n neque_fw-la videtur_fw-la tell_v we_o you_v st._n ambrose_n hope_v well_o of_o theodosius_n and_o therefore_o rejoice_v in_o his_o behalf_n yet_o because_o he_o be_v not_o certain_a of_o his_o possess_n happiness_n he_o pray_v for_o he_o and_o the_o like_a practice_n be_v yet_o in_o the_o church_n when_o man_n of_o great_a virtue_n depart_v this_o life_n we_o pray_v for_o they_o if_o they_o stand_v in_o need_n though_o we_o very_o think_v they_o need_v no_o prayer_n you_o know_v what_o distinction_n st._n austin_n make_v serm._n 17._o de_fw-fr verbis_fw-la apost_n between_o martyr_n and_o other_o pro_fw-la caeteris_fw-la defunctis_fw-la say_v he_o oratur_fw-la we_o pray_v for_o the_o faithful_a soul_n depart_v but_o not_o for_o martyr_n injuria_fw-la est_fw-la enim_fw-la etc._n etc._n for_o it_o be_v a_o wrong_a to_o pray_v for_o a_o martyr_n cujus_fw-la nos_fw-la debemus_fw-la orationibus_fw-la commendari_fw-la to_o who_o prayer_n other_o st._n augustine_n distinction_n between_o martyr_n and_o other_o we_o be_v to_o commend_v ourselves_o this_o have_v not_o be_v well_o speak_v have_v st._n austin_n think_v that_o the_o bless_a in_o heaven_n need_v our_o prayer_n as_o much_o as_o other_o do_v if_o you_o desire_v more_o of_o this_o subject_n or_o will_v know_v how_o the_o greek_a church_n pray_v for_o saint_n read_v leo_fw-la alatius_fw-la de_fw-la consens_fw-la page_n 105._o n._n 15._o where_o he_o tax_v his_o adversary_n alatius_fw-la alatius_fw-la of_o more_o than_o childish_a ignorance_n in_o the_o greek_a affair_n because_o he_o think_v the_o ancient_a church_n intercede_v for_o saint_n how_o the_o greek_a church_n pray_v for_o saint_n saint_n just_a as_o it_o do_v for_o other_o no_o such_o matter_n say_v alatius_fw-la tormentorum_fw-la ac_fw-la poenarum_fw-la nulla_fw-la est_fw-la mentio_fw-la etc._n etc._n that_o church_n in_o her_o orison_n for_o saint_n make_v no_o mention_n of_o any_o releasement_n from_o pain_n and_o torment_n but_o pray_v that_o the_o sacrifice_n offer_v up_o to_o god_n may_v be_v to_o his_o glory_n in_o the_o name_n of_o those_o bless_a for_o the_o celestial_a gift_n of_o grace_n bestow_v on_o they_o or_o that_o god_n may_v receive_v most_o large_a and_o ample_a thanks_o from_o they_o for_o the_o great_a glory_n they_o enjoy_v wherefore_o st._n austin_n in_o enchir._n c._n 110._o speak_v conformable_a st._n austin_n be_v conformable_a proper_o pro_fw-la valdè_fw-la sanctis_fw-la gratiarum_fw-la actiones_fw-la sunt_fw-la thanksgiving_n be_v for_o great_a saint_n alatius_fw-la moreover_o cite_v not_o only_o the_o orthodox_n greek_a father_n st._n dionysius_n st._n epiphanius_n objection_n the_o sentiment_n of_o the_o greek_a father_n a_o objection_n st._n chrysostom_n but_o also_o late_a author_n as_o manuel_n caleca_n yea_o and_o those_o of_o the_o schism_n very_o pertinent_o to_o this_o purpose_n some_o perhaps_o will_v say_v we_o may_v pray_v as_o well_o for_o our_o saviour_n as_o for_o saint_n if_o the_o supplication_n for_o they_o to_o be_v nothing_o else_o but_o a_o give_v of_o thanks_o and_o offer_v up_o of_o such_o a_o sacrifice_n as_o be_v now_o explicate_v if_o any_o one_o i_o say_v cavil_v thus_o st._n epiphanius_n contra_fw-la aërium_fw-la present_o after_o those_o word_n difficulty_n st._n epiphanius_n answer_v the_o difficulty_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d etc._n etc._n we_o make_v a_o commemoratiom_n of_o the_o just_a crave_v the_o mercy_n of_o god_n for_o sinner_n etc._n etc._n answer_v the_o difficulty_n and_o say_v we_o be_v to_o separate_v our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n from_o the_o order_n of_o other_o man_n because_o of_o the_o special_a honour_n and_o worship_v due_a to_o he_o know_v that_o he_o be_v both_o god_n and_o man_n and_o therefore_o can_v be_v rank_v with_o other_o mortal_n though_o most_o high_a in_o glory_n whence_o it_o be_v we_o he_o no_o prayer_n make_v for_o christ_n but_o to_o he_o pray_v not_o for_o christ_n no_o more_o than_o for_o god_n because_o of_o his_o supreme_a excellency_n and_o dignity_n above_o all_o other_o whether_o saint_n or_o angel_n but_o offer_v up_o to_o he_o a_o sacrifice_n of_o thanksgiving_n as_o also_o to_o his_o eternal_a father_n and_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o bellarmin_n now_o cite_v well_o observe_v n._n separamus_fw-la 17._o you_o say_v 5._o the_o supplication_n of_o the_o church_n for_o the_o dead_a respect_a mercy_n and_o forgiveness_n to_o be_v show_v the_o just_a at_o the_o day_n of_o judgement_n and_o consequent_o be_v intend_v for_o god_n final_a justification_n of_o they_o by_o his_o sentence_n at_o that_o great_a assembly_n to_o prove_v this_o you_o cite_v many_o place_n of_o holy_a scripture_n 2._o tim._n 1._o 16._o 1._o cor._n 1._o 8._o etc._n etc._n answer_v the_o church_n in_o the_o mass_n for_o the_o dead_a whilst_o she_o represent_v the_o terror_n of_o that_o scripture_n the_o church_n speak_v conformable_o to_o scripture_n dreadful_a judgement_n speak_v most_o conformable_o to_o the_o sense_n of_o these_o scripture_n and_o as_o if_o that_o day_n be_v to_o be_v the_o first_o trial_n do_v not_o only_o make_v her_o child_n solicitous_a quid_fw-la sum_fw-la miser_n etc._n etc._n what_o then_o miserable_a man_n shall_v i_o say_v what_o patron_n shall_v i_o ask_v for_o when_o the_o just_a will_n hardly_o be_v secure_a but_o moreover_o teach_v they_o to_o petition_v for_o mercy_n ne_o i_o perdas_fw-la destroy_v i_o not_o in_o that_o day_n call_v i_o with_o the_o bless_a etc._n etc._n yet_o this_o inference_n be_v not_o good_n the_o church_n and_o scripture_n speak_v of_o mercy_n and_o forgiveness_n to_o be_v find_v at_o the_o day_n of_o judgement_n ergo_fw-la there_o day_n how_o the_o supplication_n of_o the_o church_n respect_v the_o judgement_n day_n be_v no_o three_o place_n of_o punishment_n wherein_o mercy_n be_v show_v 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or_o without_o they_o if_o they_o remain_v in_o sin_n all_o sin_n be_v mortal_a with_o sectary_n sin_n no_o pardon_n can_v be_v expect_v at_o the_o judgement_n day_n for_o mortal_a sin_n they_o shall_v never_o be_v pardon_v for_o the_o future_a if_o without_o all_o sin_n they_o need_v neither_o forgiveness_n nor_o pardon_n at_o the_o general_a day_n but_o only_o a_o publication_n a_o confirmation_n of_o that_o mercy_n as_o be_v now_o explicate_v 18._o you_o say_v 6._o since_o we_o confess_v that_o many_o of_o the_o father_n hold_v erroneous_a opinion_n concern_v the_o state_n of_o the_o dead_a we_o ought_v not_o to_o press_v you_o with_o their_o testimony_n answer_n we_o go_v not_o about_o it_o but_o error_n sectary_n be_v to_o look_v to_o their_o own_o error_n urge_v you_o to_o prove_v your_o erroneous_a opinion_n contrary_a to_o the_o great_a part_n of_o father_n and_o all_o church_n doctrine_n and_o you_o be_v to_o do_v this_o not_o by_o talk_n but_o by_o solid_a proof_n and_o principle_n to_o what_o you_o
verity_n for_o example_n all_o acknowledge_v god_n divine_a providence_n over_o the_o world_n and_o therefore_o have_v strong_a principle_n to_o prove_v the_o truth_n we_o christian_n say_v that_o christ_n our_o lord_n and_o his_o apostle_n teach_v most_o certain_a heavenly_a doctrine_n principle_n can_v be_v want_v to_o prove_v this_o our_o christian_a verity_n we_o say_v judaism_n and_o mahometism_n be_v falso_n sect_n the_o assertion_n can_v be_v make_v good_a by_o sure_a and_o undoubted_a proof_n the_o only_a question_n now_o under_o dispute_n be_v whether_o we_o catholic_n or_o sectary_n profess_v and_o teach_v the_o ancient_a orthodox_n doctrine_n establish_v by_o christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n and_o without_o all_o controversy_n certain_a principle_n can_v fail_v in_o this_o particular_a whereby_o the_o difference_n between_o we_o may_v be_v decide_v or_o if_o they_o do_v fail_v which_o be_v not_o possible_a every_o one_o may_v not_o only_o adhere_v without_o reproof_n to_o any_o religion_n or_o none_o as_o fancy_n please_v but_o moreover_o may_v most_o just_o blame_v almighty_a god_n and_o this_o be_v hideous_o impious_a who_o command_v we_o on_o the_o one_o side_n to_o embrace_v true_a religion_n yet_o on_o the_o other_o leave_v we_o in_o such_o fearful_a darkness_n that_o none_o after_o a_o diligent_a search_n can_v find_v out_o by_o sure_a principle_n what_o or_o where_o that_o religion_n be_v which_o he_o will_v have_v we_o to_o believe_v to_o make_v profession_n of_o to_o live_v and_o die_v in_o and_o this_o will_v be_v high_o contrary_a to_o his_o infinite_a goodness_n thus_o much_o premise_v 6._o i_o say_v first_o the_o sectary_n whether_o he_o take_v in_o hand_n to_o establish_v his_o own_o opinion_n or_o to_o impugn_v any_o doctrine_n of_o our_o catholic_n faith_n shall_v never_o come_v to_o a_o intellectual_a light_n that_o have_v a_o likelihood_n of_o a_o sure_a principle_n the_o reason_n be_v most_o evident_a in_o catholic_n ground_n i_o 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we_o propose_v be_v please_v only_o to_o take_v two_o or_o three_o sheet_n of_o paper_n much_o more_o be_v not_o needful_a and_o permit_v a_o learned_a catholic_n brief_o to_o set_v down_o in_o the_o first_o page_n of_o they_o the_o proof_n he_o have_v for_o his_o catholic_n doctrine_n in_o one_o particular_a controversy_n now_o agitate_a this_o short_a way_n of_o argue_v will_v do_v the_o deed_n then_o let_v the_o protestant_n write_v all_o he_o can_v say_v for_o his_o contrary_a proposition_n in_o the_o other_o page_n and_o if_o you_o do_v not_o see_v a_o strange_a unequal_a parallel_n of_o proof_n and_o no_o proof_n lay_v together_o call_v i_o what_o you_o will_v i_o will_v bear_v a_o just_a rebuke_n yet_o fear_v not_o any_o i_o say_v pitch_v upon_o one_o controversy_n now_o in_o dispute_n for_o example_n that_o one_o long_o debate_v we_o can_v now_o insist_v upon_o all_o may_v be_v think_v of_o viz._n whether_o recours_fw-fr have_v to_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n by_o the_o prayer_n of_o the_o live_n be_v erroneous_a or_o true_a doctrine_n next_o permit_v the_o question_n to_o be_v true_o state_v and_o then_o hear_v what_o the_o catholic_n say_v for_o himself_o he_o tell_v we_o you_v first_o the_o roman_a catholic_n church_n and_o the_o greek_a church_n also_o whether_o orthodox_n or_o schismatical_a teach_v as_o he_o believe_v 2._o he_o produce_v scripture_n to_o prove_v his_o doctrine_n 3._o he_o allege_n father_n both_o greek_a and_o latin_a quote_v by_o every_o polemical_a writer_n on_o this_o subject_n bellarmin_n furnish_v you_o most_o plentiful_o lib._n 1_o de_fw-fr sanct._n beati_fw-la cap._n 19_o the_o wit_n of_o man_n can_v wrest_v they_o to_o a_o sense_n contrary_a to_o our_o catholic_n position_n 4._o you_o will_v have_v his_o reason_n and_o that_o one_o most_o conclude_a good_a man_n laudable_o pray_v for_o we_o here_o on_o earth_n ergo_fw-la much_o more_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n because_o in_o a_o better_a state_n can_v do_v that_o charity_n when_o the_o catholic_n have_v end_v his_o proof_n ground_v on_o these_o and_o the_o like_a undeniable_a principle_n cast_v your_o thought_n a_o little_a on_o the_o sectary_n contrary_a proof_n and_o mark_v well_o his_o principle_n have_v he_o any_o church_n repute_v orthodox_n either_o now_o or_o six_o hundred_o year_n ago_o that_o express_o and_o positive_o defend_v his_o opinion_n and_o condemn_v our_o doctrine_n no_o most_o evident_o not_o any_o have_v he_o so_o much_o as_o one_o syllable_n of_o scripture_n that_o plain_o and_o positive_o deny_v our_o catholic_n position_n and_o speak_v for_o he_o not_o a_o word_n be_v find_v in_o the_o whole_a bible_n to_o that_o purpose_n much_o against_o it_o have_v he_o father_n so_o numerous_a and_o clear_a for_o his_o novelty_n as_o we_o produce_v for_o this_o one_o truth_n saint_n can_v both_o hear_v and_o help_v we_o not_o one_o father_n be_v express_v against_o we_o or_o plain_a for_o his_o contrary_a opinion_n parallel_v therefore_o a_o church_n and_o no_o church_n scripture_n and_o no_o scripture_n father_n express_v for_o we_o and_o not_o one_o against_o we_o and_o judge_v you_o whether_o it_o be_v not_o evident_a to_o every_o disinterest_v judgement_n that_o protestant_n want_v sound_a principle_n to_o rely_v on_o in_o this_o controversy_n and_o as_o you_o see_v a_o defect_n of_o principle_n here_o so_o you_o will_v find_v it_o in_o all_o other_o dispute_v between_o we_o now_o if_o they_o say_v they_o value_v not_o much_o of_o our_o church_n authority_n i_o answer_v they_o speak_v without_o principle_n for_o the_o sole_a judgement_n of_o our_o church_n have_v we_o no_o more_o will_v be_v think_v in_o any_o just_a tribunal_n a_o strong_a proof_n for_o our_o doctrine_n than_o their_o mere_a slight_n of_o it_o can_v be_v without_o a_o likelihood_n of_o proof_n if_o they_o say_v again_o they_o can_v either_o deny_v or_o explicate_v the_o father_n we_o produce_v i_o answer_v they_o be_v still_o out_o of_o principle_n for_o their_o denial_n be_v weightles_a unless_o they_o ground_n it_o upon_o a_o sure_a principle_n than_o that_o authority_n be_v which_o they_o deny_v observe_v well_o we_o have_v innumerable_a father_n greek_n and_o latin_a express_v for_o the_o invocation_n of_o saint_n say_v therefore_o what_o will_v it_o avail_v the_o sectary_n bare_o to_o reject_v these_o authority_n because_o they_o be_v the_o word_n of_o man_n and_o not_o of_o god_n unless_o he_o give_v you_o the_o plain_a word_n of_o god_n or_o the_o authority_n of_o a_o orthodox_n church_n in_o place_n of_o they_o whereon_o his_o denial_n have_v sure_a foot_n if_o this_o be_v not_o do_v he_o come_v to_o nothing_o like_o a_o principle_n consequent_o the_o father_n authority_n most_o agreeable_a to_o the_o church_n doctrine_n be_v a_o clear_a demonstration_n against_o he_o if_o he_o pretend_v to_o allege_v father_n contrary_a to_o we_o i_o answer_v he_o have_v not_o one_o express_v or_o plain_o contrary_a however_o false_o suppose_v he_o have_v one_o or_o two_o the_o contest_v will_v then_o be_v whether_o one_o that_o stand_v as_o it_o be_v alone_o opposite_a to_o the_o church_n doctrine_n or_o many_o father_n that_o side_n with_o the_o church_n deserve_v more_o credit_n here_o i_o be_o sure_a he_o will_v stand_v without_o foot_n on_o any_o certain_a principle_n if_o he_o tell_v you_o three_o the_o primitive_a church_n pray_v not_o to_o saint_n they_o be_v his_o own_o empty_a word_n we_o prove_v the_o contrary_a by_o the_o express_a testimony_n of_o most_o ancient_a father_n and_o the_o tradition_n of_o our_o church_n whilst_o he_o remain_v speechless_a and_o without_o a_o principle_n to_o ground_v his_o assertion_n on_o if_o he_o object_n fourthly_a his_o reason_n chief_o two_o viz._n prayer_n to_o saint_n lessen_v our_o honour_n to_o christ._n and_o we_o can_v say_v how_o our_o prayer_n come_v to_o the_o saint_n hear_v etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v here_o be_v
nothing_o probable_a for_o a_o objection_n as_o soon_o solve_v as_o see_v be_v far_o off_o from_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o sound_a principle_n we_o say_v therefore_o if_o to_o pray_v for_o one_o a_o other_o here_o on_o earth_n lessen_v not_o christ_n honour_n there_o be_v no_o danger_n of_o lessen_v it_o by_o our_o recours_fw-fr have_v to_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n now_o in_o a_o most_o glorious_a and_o happy_a condition_n and_o thus_o no_o less_o a_o doctor_n then_o s._n hierom_n adversus_fw-la vigilantium_fw-la paris_n print_n 1609._o pag._n 590._o solve_v the_o difficulty_n at_o those_o word_n dicis_fw-la in_o libello_fw-la tuo_fw-la etc._n etc._n thou_o vigilantius_n say_v in_o thy_o book_n that_o whilst_o we_o live_v we_o may_v pray_v for_o one_o another_o but_o after_o death_n no_o prayer_n be_v hear_v for_o any_o here_o be_v the_o objection_n mark_v s._n hieroms_n answer_n si_fw-mi apostoli_fw-la &_o martyr_n adhuc_fw-la in_o corpore_fw-la constituti_fw-la possunt_fw-la orare_fw-la pro_fw-la caeteris_fw-la quando_fw-la pro_fw-la se_fw-la debent_fw-la esse_fw-la soliciti_fw-la quanto_fw-la magis_fw-la post_fw-la corona_n victorias_fw-la &_o triumphos_fw-la if_o the_o apostle_n and_o martyr_n yet_o live_v in_o a_o mortal_a body_n can_v pray_v for_o other_o when_o they_o be_v solicitous_a for_o themselves_o much_o more_o can_v they_o do_v that_o charity_n after_o their_o crown_n victory_n and_o triumph_n he_o go_v on_o vnus_fw-la homo_fw-la moses_n etc._n etc._n that_o one_o moses_n obtain_v pardon_n for_o thousand_o exod._n 32._o and_o the_o first_o martyr_n s._n stephen_n live_v pray_v for_o his_o persecutor_n act._n 7._o et_fw-la postquam_fw-la cum_fw-la christo_fw-la esse_fw-la coeperint_fw-la minus_fw-la valebunt_fw-la and_o what_o shall_v they_o be_v able_a to_o do_v less_o now_o when_o they_o be_v glorious_a with_o christ_n in_o heaven_n meliorque_fw-la erit_fw-la vigilantius_fw-la cams_fw-la vivens_fw-la quam_fw-la ille_fw-la lo_o mortuus_fw-la 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but_o still_o you_o find_v they_o want_v in_o that_o which_o concern_v they_o most_o which_o be_v to_o bring_v their_o novelty_n to_o the_o ground_n of_o either_o scripture_n or_o any_o ancient_a church_n doctrine_n herein_o they_o be_v as_o mute_a as_o fish_n and_o say_v not_o a_o word_n it_o be_v from_o want_n of_o principle_n that_o when_o they_o explicate_v a_o council_n or_o father_n allege_v against_o they_o they_o be_v tedious_o long_a about_o little_a that_o be_v in_o relate_v the_o circumstance_n to_o be_v as_o they_o will_v have_v they_o but_o whether_o they_o hit_v right_o be_v ever_o a_o matter_n of_o dispute_n and_o nothing_o like_o a_o receive_a principle_n from_o hence_o it_o also_o be_v that_o when_o they_o make_v such_o and_o such_o doctrine_n to_o be_v inâ—oâ—ations_n pray_v to_o saint_n purgatory_n or_o what_o else_o you_o will_v the_o very_a last_o ground_n they_o standon_v come_v to_o nothing_o but_o negative_a argument_n weak_a conjecture_n blind_a guess_n fancy_n 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it_o also_o
you_o fallible_a teacher_n say_v but_o what_o god_n have_v say_v in_o scripture_n concern_v the_o fallibility_n of_o a_o whole_a christian_a church_n this_o we_o wish_v to_o hear_v of_o before_o we_o credit_v your_o talk_n or_o believe_v for_o your_o say_n it_o have_v err_v the_o facto_fw-la chap._n viii_o the_o new_a mode_n of_o sectary_n misinterpret_v scripture_n destroy_v protestant_n religion_n 1._o here_o we_o give_v you_o a_o four_o reflection_n consequent_a to_o the_o former_a discourse_n which_o follow_v upon_o our_o sectary_n misinterpretation_n of_o scripture_n it_o be_v worth_a the_o reader_n knowledge_n and_o if_o i_o mistake_v not_o total_o ruin_n protestant_n religion_n thus_o it_o be_v the_o whole_a machine_n of_o protestancy_n as_o protestancy_n stand_v negative_n protestancy_n stand_v tople_a on_o negative_n tople_a upon_o suppose_a objective_n negative_n build_v up_o by_o fancy_n only_o without_o so_o much_o as_o one_o positive_a proof_n of_o scripture_n to_o 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ago_o desert_a this_o suppose_a err_v church_n and_o revolt_v from_o it_o as_o luther_n do_v be_v it_o not_o a_o degree_n of_o madness_n to_o suppose_n that_o all_o hypocritical_a these_o learned_a and_o innumerable_a professor_n must_v either_o be_v suppose_v stupid_o blind_a or_o wicked_o hypocritical_a these_o worthy_a powerful_a and_o learned_a professor_n of_o the_o catholic_n faith_n be_v either_o so_o stupidly_n blind_a as_o not_o to_o have_v see_v such_o error_n or_o so_o wicked_o hypocritical_a as_o to_o have_v wink_v at_o they_o after_o a_o clear_a discovery_n i_o say_v more_o the_o professor_n of_o this_o church_n be_v so_o far_o of_o from_o not_o see_v those_o doctrine_n which_o protestant_n now_o call_v error_n for_o example_n the_o offer_v up_o of_o sacrifice_n for_o the_o dead_a pray_v to_o saint_n etc._n etc._n that_o the_o denial_n of_o they_o be_v positive_o condemn_v as_o heretical_a in_o foregoing_a sectary_n none_o shall_v ever_o probably_n answer_v this_o 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arian_n abyssins_n nestorian_n etc._n etc._n and_o most_o of_o all_o catholic_n oppose_v it_o so_o far_o that_o not_o one_o will_v believe_v as_o protestant_n do._n so_o true_a it_o be_v manus_fw-la omnium_fw-la contra_fw-la eum_fw-la all_o band_v against_o this_o novelty_n therefore_o it_o can_v be_v from_o god_n or_o approve_a doctrine_n now._n that_o our_o protestant_n since_o their_o first_o rise_n have_v gain_v the_o company_n of_o some_o few_o jar_a and_o dissent_v brethren_n prove_v nothing_o for_o arius_n in_o time_n get_v more_o and_o i_o believe_v have_v they_o better_o unite_v in_o doctrine_n then_o these_o ever_o will_v be_v chap._n xiii_o a_o second_o argument_n against_o this_o schism_n of_o sectary_n cavil_v concern_v error_n enter_v the_o church_n insensible_o 1._o i_o argue_v 2._o protestant_n seem_o at_o least_o own_o sectary_n a_o argument_n ad_fw-la hominem_fw-la against_o sectary_n a_o holy_a universal_a catholic_n church_n before_o luther_n of_o a_o very_a large_a 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roman_a church_n be_v corrupt_v in_o doctrine_n it_o follow_v we_o that_o for_o many_o age_n before_o luther_n there_o be_v not_o one_o visible_a and_o orthodox_n church_n throughout_o the_o whole_a world_n and_o consequent_o during_o that_o time_n every_o good_a christian_a be_v oblige_v in_o some_o point_n or_o other_o to_o contradict_v the_o doctrine_n and_o desert_n the_o communion_n of_o all_o visible_a church_n in_o the_o world_n which_o corrupt_v if_o all_o particular_a church_n be_v corrupt_v in_o doctrine_n the_o whole_a catholic_n church_n be_v also_o corrupt_v i_o say_v can_v but_o imply_v a_o leave_v of_o and_o also_o a_o strong_a opposition_n against_o the_o church_n catholic_n what_o ever_o this_o catholic_n church_n be_v for_o this_o catholic_n society_n be_v not_o a_o chimaera_n in_o the_o air_n but_o be_v essential_o constitute_v of_o either_o pure_a or_o particular_a taint_a church_n now_o our_o adversary_n say_v all_o particular_a church_n throughout_o the_o whole_a 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foresee_v that_o the_o roman_n catholic_n church_n will_v if_o protestant_n speak_v truth_n at_o last_o about_o the_o five_o or_o six_o age_n become_v erroneous_a and_o consequent_o forsake_v the_o good_a master_n that_o found_v it_o with_o this_o church_n then_o which_o abandon_a truth_n christ_n who_o be_v truth_n remain_v not_o nor_o with_o any_o other_o society_n of_o christian_n for_o ten_o whole_a age_n because_o all_o these_o be_v profess_v heretic_n and_o christ_n never_o teach_v heresy_n or_o assist_v heretic_n in_o their_o doctrine_n therefore_o he_o do_v not_o only_o promise_v what_o he_o never_o intend_v to_o perform_v but_o more_o even_o now_o glorious_a as_o he_o be_v in_o heaven_n he_o wink'_v at_o improbability_n yea_o and_o now_o wink_v at_o all_o the_o suppose_a error_n of_o he_o once_o own_v found_v catholic_n church_n vast_a improbability_n these_o hideous_a suppose_a error_n of_o his_o once_o own_o found_v catholic_n church_n and_o remedy_n none_o poor_a soul_n 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argumentaremur_fw-la they_o be_v his_o word_n page_n 3_o the_o man_n will_v discourse_n foolish_o that_o shall_v conclude_v the_o greek_a church_n hold_v no_o place_n of_o purgatory_n because_o marcus_n ephesius_n barlaam_n monachus_n nilus_n thessalonicensis_n josephus_n bryennius_n and_o other_o schismatic_n have_v false_o relate_v matter_n so_o which_o way_n of_o argue_v be_v as_o weak_a as_o if_o one_o shall_v say_v that_o that_o whole_a church_n be_v now_o infect_v church_n the_o error_n of_o some_o be_v not_o to_o be_v impute_v to_o a_o whole_a church_n with_o arianism_n macedonianism_n eutychianism_n or_o nestorianism_n because_o some_o among_o they_o profess_v these_o heresy_n alas_o the_o error_n of_o some_o that_o recede_v from_o that_o church_n as_o nicetas_n bizantius_n cite_v page_n 4._o well_o observe_v can_v in_o justice_n be_v impute_v to_o their_o whole_a church_n which_o ever_o defend_v a_o place_n of_o purgatory_n and_o therefore_o he_o tell_v we_o the_o chief_a of_o the_o armenian_n of_o his_o unhandsome_a plea_n when_o armeniorum_fw-la bizantius_n adversus_fw-la principem_fw-la armeniorum_fw-la he_o pretend_v that_o the_o church_n leave_v the_o schismatical_a opinion_n of_o some_o few_o no_o such_o matter_n say_v nicetas_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o the_o contrary_n be_v true_a it_o be_v you_o the_o far_o less_o number_n that_o desert_v we_o page_z the_o 12._o alatius_fw-la cite_v manuel_n caleca_n lib._n 4._o adversus_fw-la graecos_n who_o do_v not_o only_o admit_v of_o a_o place_n of_o purgatory_n for_o soul_n not_o perfect_o cleanse_v but_o moreover_o deliver_n caleca_n three_o truth_n establish_v by_o manuel_n caleca_n these_o three_z particular_a truth_n according_a to_o the_o sentiment_n of_o that_o church_n the_o first_o it_o be_v not_o necessary_a to_o pray_v for_o those_o who_o now_o enjoy_v beatitude_n for_o although_o say_v he_o we_o offer_v sacrifice_n for_o the_o saint_n it_o be_v not_o do_v that_o they_o may_v obtain_v mercy_n have_v it_o already_o but_o it_o be_v offer_v up_o for_o this_o end_n that_o by_o honour_v saint_n we_o may_v make_v they_o through_o the_o mercy_n of_o god_n to_o be_v mediator_n for_o we_o the_o second_o verity_n be_v the_o church_n never_o pray_v for_o the_o damn_a the_o last_o there_o be_v therefore_o a_o three_o place_n of_o punishment_n call_v purgatory_n where_o soul_n not_o perfect_o cleanse_v must_v by_o the_o just_a judgement_n of_o god_n suffer_v for_o less_o offence_n and_o so_o pass_v into_o glory_n this_o learned_a author_n have_v much_o more_o to_o this_o purpose_n but_o it_o be_v impossible_a to_o touch_v on_o all_o 9_o let_v we_o return_v to_o alatius_fw-la that_o in_o every_o page_n refute_v your_o doctrine_n page_n 74._o he_o tell_v we_o we_o that_o the_o purgatory_n the_o whole_a greek_a church_n teach_v by_o apostolical_a tradition_n pray_v for_o soul_n in_o purgatory_n whole_a greek_a church_n teach_v by_o apostolical_a tradition_n ever_o pray_v for_o the_o depart_a who_o be_v neither_o cast_v in_o to_o hell_n nor_o be_v glorious_a in_o heaven_n and_o he_o prove_v this_o even_a by_o the_o confession_n of_o innumerable_a that_o be_v of_o the_o schism_n here_o he_o give_v we_o the_o judgement_n of_o gabriel_n severus_n philadelphiensis_fw-la in_o the_o book_n he_o write_v against_o the_o latin_n of_o purgatory_n where_o he_o show_v how_o far_o the_o greek_a church_n agree_v with_o the_o latin_a and_o wherein_o it_o differ_v we_o agree_v say_v he_o that_o soul_n pious_o depart_v this_o life_n receive_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d benefit_n and_o relaxation_n it_o those_o of_o the_o schism_n confess_v it_o in_o those_o place_n they_o be_v and_o this_o by_o the_o alms-deed_n and_o good_a prayer_n of_o other_o as_o dionyfius_n areopagita_n teacher_n and_o beside_o dyonisius_n severus_n allege_n also_o the_o testimony_n of_o s._n athanasius_n s._n chrysostom_n basil_n and_o theophilact_fw-mi for_o this_o great_a verity_n that_o such_o soul_n depart_v have_v help_n comfort_n and_o relaxation_n by_o the_o sacrifice_n of_o the_o mass_n by_o alm_n and_o pious_a prayer_n of_o the_o live_n thus_o a_o grecian_a schismatic_a speak_v and_o it_o be_v not_o he_o alone_o that_o produce_v these_o father_n for_o a_o proof_n of_o purgatory_n but_o other_o greek_a author_n also_o even_o those_o of_o the_o schism_n as_o alatius_fw-la demonstrat_n in_o several_a place_n purgatory_n the_o interpretation_n of_o the_o greek_a and_o latin_a church_n make_v the_o sense_n of_o father_n clear_a for_o purgatory_n and_o most_o sure_o so_o unanimous_a a_o consent_n of_o many_o which_o who_o the_o latin_n agree_v also_o can_v but_o make_v the_o sense_n of_o these_o father_n indubitable_a for_o our_o catholic_n verity_n 10._o now_o sir_n if_o other_o adversary_n say_v as_o you_o do_v that_o the_o greek_n indeed_o pray_v for_o the_o dead_a but_o without_o any_o respect_n of_o deliver_v soul_n out_o of_o purgatory_n or_o a_o place_n of_o torment_n turn_v once_o more_o to_o alatius_fw-la page_n 87._o where_o he_o give_v you_o not_o only_o one_o or_o two_o witness_n but_o as_o he_o speak_v vniversam_fw-la ipsam_fw-la graeciam_fw-la the_o testimony_n of_o the_o whole_a greek_a church_n palam_fw-la &_o aperte_fw-la open_o adversary_n a_o clear_a refutation_n of_o our_o adversary_n avow_v these_o torment_n of_o purgatory_n and_o to_o this_o purpose_n he_o quote_v their_o ritual_n their_o office_n of_o the_o dead_a and_o other_o prayer_n in_o the_o office_n you_o have_v this_o orison_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d etc._n etc._n o_o christ_n give_v rest_n with_o thy_o saint_n to_o the_o soul_n of_o thy_o servant_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d where_o grief_n sadness_n purgatory_n the_o greek_a ritual_n and_o office_n of_o the_o dead_a significant_a for_o purgatory_n and_o mourn_v may_v cease_v give_v they_o a_o life_n of_o perpetual_a happiness_n etc._n etc._n another_o prayer_n be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d etc._n etc._n our_o lord_n himself_o give_v rest_n to_o your_o servant_n n_z in_o a_o place_n of_o refreshment_n from_o whence_o grief_n misery_n and_o deep_o sigh_v may_v pass_v this_o be_v also_o repeat_v in_o their_o paracletica_n from_o tear_n and_o bitter_a cry_v out_o deliver_v o_o saviour_n thy_o servant_n again_o they_o beg_v they_o may_v be_v free_v from_o all_o punishment_n from_o a_o prison_n of_o sufferance_n and_o soon_o be_v settle_v in_o a_o place_n of_o joy_n where_o the_o just_a inhabit_v with_o perfect_a forgiveness_n of_o all_o their_o transgression_n yet_o more_o alatius_fw-la page_n 93._o say_v this_o be_v the_o doctrine_n of_o s._n dionysius_n of_o the_o great_a s._n basil_n precatione_n 3._o in_o pentecosten_n where_o he_o pray_v that_o these_o soul_n alatius_fw-la some_o father_n quote_v by_o alatius_fw-la may_v not_o only_o be_v quit_v of_o torment_n and_o sufferance_n but_o moreover_o be_v place_v in_o the_o tabernacle_n of_o the_o just_a and_o enjoy_v happiness_n for_o ever_o final_o page_n 95._o he_o quote_v s._n cyril_n of_o jerusalem_n catech._n mystag_n 5._o who_o do_v not_o only_o acknowledge_v assistance_n afford_v the_o dead_a by_o our_o prayer_n for_o such_o a_o assertion_n be_v easy_o misinterpret_v but_o beside_o affirm_v they_o receive_v remission_n and_o relaxation_n of_o their_o punishment_n the_o like_a severus_n philadelphiensis_fw-la though_o a_o schismatic_a confess_v that_o the_o greek_a priest_n schismatic_a the_o confession_n of_o a_o schismatic_a pray_v every_o saturday_n that_o these_o depart_a soul_n may_v find_v god_n merciful_a gain_v remission_n of_o their_o sin_n and_o be_v free_v from_o the_o punishment_n which_o torment_v they_o 11._o i_o be_o force_v to_o wave_v a_o world_n of_o other_o testimony_n most_o pertinent_o produce_v by_o this_o learned_a author_n for_o our_o catholic_n verity_n page_n 56._o he_o show_v that_o as_o well_o the_o ancient_n as_o modern_a greek_n acknowledge_v tradition_n prayer_n for_o the_o dead_a a_o apostolical_a tradition_n the_o continue_a practice_n of_o pray_v for_o the_o dead_a to_o have_v come_v from_o the_o apostle_n and_o in_o confirmation_n of_o it_o cite_v gennadius_n the_o patriarch_n s._n chrysostom_n hom._n 69._o ad_fw-la populum_fw-la express_o approve_v the_o doctrine_n who_o also_o say_v much_o help_n be_v afford_v the_o dead_a by_o prayer_n this_o be_v again_o confirm_v pag._n 63._o by_o the_o ancient_a testimony_n of_o s._n dionysius_n sive_fw-la quis_fw-la alius_fw-la ecclesiast_fw-la hier._n c._n 3._o by_o holy_a ephrem_n last_o will_v and_o testament_n and_o other_o page_n 93._o and_o 94._o he_o prove_v more_o ample_o 〈…〉_o at_o these_o prayer_n be_v make_v for_o a_o delivery_n of_o soul_n 〈…〉_o be_o pain_n from_o grief_n mourn_v affliction_n and_o torment_v as_o be_v now_o declare_v page_n 104._o he_o show_v the_o sufferance_n imaginary_a the_o pain_n of_o purgatory_n be_v real_o great_a not_o slight_a or_o imaginary_a of_o these_o depart_v in_o purgatory_n not_o to_o â—_o a_o slight_a 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d as_o some_o
punishment_n st._n austin_n only_o doubt_v of_o one_o particular_a punishment_n it_o here_o but_o only_o call_v such_o a_o particular_a pain_n into_o question_n as_o be_v expiatory_a of_o lesser_a fault_n because_o as_o i_o tell_v you_o he_o hold_v these_o lesser_a transgression_n usual_o take_v away_o by_o sufferance_n endure_v in_o this_o life_n conclude_v therefore_o unless_o this_o inference_n be_v good_a st._n austin_n doubt_v whether_o some_o fault_n be_v punish_v in_o purgatory_n we_o the_o testimony_n show_v forceles_a against_o we_o ergo_fw-la he_o think_v none_o be_v expiate_v there_o which_o be_v not_o probable_a the_o allege_a testimony_n be_v of_o no_o force_n against_o we_o yet_o prove_v that_o you_o read_v not_o st._n austin_n too_o well_o now_o if_o you_o say_v my_o gloss_n upon_o this_o authority_n be_v not_o certain_a i_o answer_v no_o more_o will_v you_o be_v when_o you_o have_v interpret_v all_o you_o can_v therefore_o neither_o of_o we_o yet_o come_v to_o a_o certain_a principle_n and_o consequent_o you_o must_v produce_v a_o far_o clear_a authority_n before_o you_o ask_v again_o whether_o any_o man_n in_o his_o wit_n can_v think_v that_o st._n austin_n speak_v this_o of_o a_o matter_n of_o faith_n suppose_v all_o sure_a for_o your_o interpretation_n which_o to_o i_o and_o i_o think_v to_o other_o also_o that_o know_v latin_a and_o sense_n will_v not_o appear_v probable_a it_o be_v not_o my_o task_n to_o quote_v passage_n a_o parallel_n of_o clear_a and_o doubtful_a passage_n here_o at_o large_a those_o most_o clear_a testimony_n of_o st._n austin_n for_o our_o catholic_n verity_n yet_o i_o will_v give_v you_o one_o and_o wish_v you_o to_o parallel_v that_o with_o all_o your_o dubious_a place_n lib._n 2._o de_fw-la genesi_fw-la contra_fw-la manichaeos_n cap_n 20._o fine_a those_o book_n be_v of_o undoubted_a authority_n qui_fw-la fortè_fw-la agrum_fw-la suum_fw-la non_fw-la coluerit_fw-la etc._n etc._n he_o that_o cultivate_v not_o his_o church_n sectary_n ever_o suppose_v mere_a dubious_a testimony_n to_o have_v more_o force_n then_o most_o clear_a one_o and_o the_o judgement_n of_o a_o whole_a church_n field_n but_o suffer_v it_o to_o be_v overgrow_v with_o thorn_n have_v a_o cur_n on_o he_o in_o all_o he_o do_v in_o this_o life_n et_fw-la post_fw-la hanc_fw-la vitam_fw-la habebit_fw-la vel_fw-la ignem_fw-la purgatiâ—nis_fw-la well_fw-mi penal_a aeternam_fw-la and_o after_o this_o life_n shall_v either_o have_v a_o purgatory_n or_o suffer_v pain_n for_o ever_o thus_o the_o doctor_n and_o every_o man_n in_o his_o wit_n it_o be_v your_o own_o phrase_n can_v but_o think_v he_o speak_v of_o a_o matter_n of_o faith_n when_o his_o doctrine_n agree_v with_o the_o belief_n of_o a_o whole_a church_n see_v more_o lib._n 21._o de_fw-la civit._fw-la c._n 16._o where_o he_o speak_v of_o a_o purge_v torment_n after_o death_n as_o also_o in_o psal_n 37._o but_o enough_o of_o this_o point_n 15._o you_o say_v 3._o where_o any_o of_o the_o father_n build_v any_o doctrine_n upon_o the_o sense_n of_o doubtful_a place_n of_o scripture_n we_o have_v no_o further_a reason_n to_o believe_v that_o doctrine_n than_o we_o have_v to_o unprove_v two_o proposition_n more_o unprove_v believe_v that_o it_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o those_o place_n so_o that_o in_o this_o case_n the_o enquiry_n be_v take_v off_o from_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o father_n and_o fix_v upon_o the_o sense_n of_o scripture_n which_o they_o and_o we_o both_o rely_v on_o and_o you_o give_v this_o reason_n for_o since_o the_o father_n pretend_v to_o no_o great_a evidence_n of_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o doctrine_n than_o such_o place_n do_v afford_v it_o be_v the_o great_a reason_n that_o the_o argument_n to_o persuade_v we_o be_v not_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o father_n but_o the_o evidence_n of_o the_o place_n itself_o answ_n if_o here_o be_v not_o a_o piece_n of_o most_o doctrine_n confuse_a doctrine_n confuse_a learning_n i_o never_o read_v any_o 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make_v it_o speak_v your_o sense_n which_o it_o do_v not_o certain_o for_o it_o be_v doubtful_a to_o you_o perhaps_o you_o will_v say_v when_o the_o sense_n be_v doubtful_a neither_o you_o nor_o the_o father_n can_v tell_v what_o to_o make_v of_o it_o and_o therefore_o without_o further_a enquiry_n it_o will_v be_v best_a to_o let_v it_o alone_o and_o remain_v in_o its_o obscurity_n may_v this_o doctrine_n pass_v you_o need_v not_o to_o believe_v a_o great_a part_n of_o scripture_n for_o it_o be_v very_o obscure_a place_n they_o can_v contradict_v the_o father_n explicate_v a_o doubtful_a place_n 2._o you_o be_v bind_v in_o conscience_n never_o to_o contradict_v the_o father_n interpret_n a_o doubtful_a passage_n for_o and_o it_o be_v very_o good_a reason_n if_o you_o will_v have_v the_o father_n silent_a in_o such_o a_o case_n you_o be_v to_o hold_v your_o peace_n and_o to_o say_v nothing_o against_o they_o your_o second_o proposition_n in_o this_o case_n the_o enquiry_n be_v take_v 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church_n and_o father_n have_v better_a reason_n to_o be_v acquaint_v with_o such_o light_n than_o any_o sectary_n can_v have_v in_o a_o word_n a_o doubtful_a place_n remain_v still_o doubtful_a or_o dubiouf_o explicate_v can_v never_o beget_v a_o certain_a belief_n in_o you_o or_o any_o yet_o we_o say_v when_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n and_o father_n also_o agree_v in_o a_o explication_n cease_v when_o the_o church_n and_o father_n interpret_v all_o doubt_n cease_v the_o doubt_n cease_v and_o the_o deliver_v sense_n be_v most_o certain_a in_o your_o reason_n for_o since_o they_o etc._n etc._n you_o leap_v from_o the_o sense_n of_o a_o doubtful_a passage_n to_o the_o evidence_n of_o the_o place_n itself_o which_o seem_v not_o pertinent_a for_o what_o have_v evidence_n to_o do_v here_o when_o your_o discourse_n be_v only_o of_o a_o doubtful_a sense_n when_o a_o place_n be_v evident_a we_o see_v that_o as_o well_o as_o you_o and_o have_v with_o it_o the_o sentiment_n of_o a_o whole_a church_n and_o consent_v of_o father_n also_o 16._o you_o say_v 4._o after_o some_o talk_n of_o two_o reverend_a primate_fw-la which_o i_o much_o heed_n not_o that_o st._n ambrose_n and_o other_o pray_v for_o the_o bless_a in_o heaven_n ergo_fw-la orison_n purpose_n old_a objection_n renew_v to_o no_o purpose_n for_o the_o dead_a prove_v not_o a_o purgatory_n i_o wonder_v you_o weary_a man_n ear_n again_o with_o such_o old_a worn-out_a objection_n you_o or_o your_o brethren_n have_v be_v tell_v many_o and_o many_o a_o time_n that_o no_o father_n no_o church_n remit_v the_o church_n pray_v not_o for_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n to_o be_v release_v from_o temporal_a pain_n or_o to_o have_v sin_n remit_v greek_a or_o latin_a ever_o pray_v that_o the_o saint_n in_o heaven_n may_v be_v free_v from_o any_o temporal_a pain_n or_o for_o the_o remission_n of_o sin_n yet_o not_o only_o the_o father_n