to your precept And in the Feast of Saint Peter and Paul to Saint Peter they pray much after the same manner and yet the Scripture puts the question Who can forgive sins but God Mar. 2.7 Secondly They pray to them for Grace and Glory * Ps 56. Lady in thy name let me be safe and free me from my unrighteousness have mercy upon me and cleanse me from all mine iniquities and again * Ps 27. 50. Dissolve the Bonds of mine iniquities Take away the bundles of our sins purge my soul from its filth * Ps 3. 87. By thy Holiness are my sins purged * Ps 44. Thou art the beginning and end of my whole salvation totius salutis meae c. * Ps 41. * Ps 136. By her are sins purged by her is made true satisfaction for sins c. whereas 't is Gods propriety to be the God of all Grace Thirdly they pray for these things upon the account of the merits of the Saints Thus the Roman Breviary By the merits of Saint Franciscus April 2. Let us enjoy our promised rewards and grant that by the merits of Saint Peter and Saint Paul we may attain to eternal Glory July 6. That by the merits of Saint Nicholaus the Church may enjoy perpetual peace by the intercession of the merits of Saint Basil Sept. 10. Let us be absolved from allour sins and to the blessed Virgin Mary Jan. 14. By thee let the wrath of God be averted from me appease him by thy merits and again By the blood which Saint Thomas shed for thee Ps 72. make us to ascend that Heaven whither Thomas is ascended and this is consonant to that of Bellarmine Prec ad usum Sacrum in fest Th. Becket who tells us that it is lawful to pray unto the Saints even for salvatian and other spiritual blessings if so be we understand it thus that they should impetrate them by their merits Now if this be not derogatory to the Merits of Christ to have veram satisfactionem de'peccatis to have Grace and Glory purchased by the blood and merits of others let any unreasonable Man judge Section 4th and 5th Sect. 3 Our Authour affords us some considerations from which I suppose he would infer the lawfulness of this practise and first saith he we may beg prayers from one another as Saint Paul himself did from the Ephesians and others c. 6.19 c. 2. Thes 3.1.4 Col. 3. where he bids the Brethren pray for him Answer Very good but yet we dare not beg from these our Brethren Grace Glory pardon of sins nor say with the Roman Breviary to the Virgin Mary We flye unto thee O Virgin Mary for thy defence and for as much as being conscious of our great offences we fear the wrath of a severe Judge whom we dare not see We flye unto thee his Mother that thou wouldst intercede for us unto God excuse our sins and obtaining for its the Grace of thy Omnipotent Son procure us the pardon of what ever we have committed Secondly He tells us such begging of prayers is far from Idolatry or diminution to Christ since holy persons living or dead are not invocated as donors but fellow beggars with God for us Answer Why then doth your Breviary talk so often of procuring Grace and Glory and the pardon of sins by the merits of the Saints Why do you tell us that by the Holiness of the Virgin Mary are your sins purged That she is the beginning and end of your salvation that she hath made true satisfaction for us are these things no diminution to Christs merits and satisfaction to procure mercy for us upon these scores is this to procure it as fellow bâ—eggars Thirdly say you the refusing of the assistance of those whose prayers God more willingly hears is a neglect of using all means helpful to us Answer True but if the neglect of this Invocation of Saints be the neglect of any means thus helpful then were the Apostles negligent in giving us no intimation of our duty in this particular Yea the Saints of God for some thousand of yeares under the Old Testament and the Primitive Church for 300 years must be accused of this negligence for of their practise in this case nullibi vola nec vestigium Scripture and Histories afford us no one Tittle but pregnant Evidence to the contrary But you proceed Mr. C. S. 5. If the praiers to Sts. departed be prejudicial to the merits intercessions of our Lord Sect. 4 so is the beging of the prayers of those alive if one be unlawful so is the other and if both be lawful the prayers of Saints departed will be incomparably more effectual and therefore will better deserve to be made use of then the other Answer Is it not then a wonder that Saint Paul if he may be permitted to have known as much as Mr. C. should thrice call upon his Brethren alive for their supplications and yet not put up one Petition to a Saint or Angel Secondly We know it is the duty of living Saints to pray for one another but whether the Saints departed pray at all whether for any in particular and how far we know not We know a certain way to excite the Saints on earth to the performance of that Duty in reference to us but we are ignorant of any way of conveighing our desires to the Saints in Heaven We have Rule President and Command in Scripture for the first not one jot of all these in reference to the second the Requests we make to the living are no elicite Acts of Religion the requests made by the Romanist to the Saints departed are We pray to the living neither directly nor indirectly but desire them only by vertue of our Communion with them to assist us in their prayers as we might ask an Alms or any other good turn at their hands the Saints departed are by you directly invocated and in your devotions you immediately step from God and Christ unto a Saint We do not plead the merits of our Brethren nor bid them do so in our behalf you do both in reference to the Saints departed we do not kneel to our Brethren or ly prostrate before them on these accounts we do not invoke them in our Churches insert them into our Liturgies believe them to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any way or that we are committed to their care or custody all this you do believe in inreference to the Saints departed Is not this therefore a very good Argument if the prayers made to Saints departed by the Romanists wherein they beg of them Grace and Glory and all spiritual good things trust in their Patronage plead for audience on the account of their merits be prejudicial to the merits of satisfaction and intercession of our Saviour or otherwise unlawful then must the asking of my brothers prayers in spight of all these differences be
to be done you must not be angry with Tertullian for saying you are superstitious Apolog. c. 30. Again when he had told us that Christians pray for the safety of the Emperour entreating for him quaecumque hominis Caesaris vota sunt he adds these things I may not ask from any other then from him from whom I know I shall obtain them because he it is who alone vouchsafeth them and I am his Servant unto whom it appertaineth to obtain what is requested Et ego sum famulus ejus qui eum solum observo Lib. de orat Dom. who observe or worship him alone viz. in my prayers and therefore he gave no heed to Saints and Angels in them Thirdly S. Cyprian informs us that to pray otherwise then Christ hath taught us is not only our ignorance but fault he having said you reject the command of God that you may stablish your own tradition Wherefore unless the Papists can shew us this doctrine taught by Christ we must esteem them ignorant and blame-worthy in the exercise thereof Fourthly When Celsus had said that Angels belong to God and in that respect we should pray unto them to be favourable to us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 8. Orig. Cont. Cels 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Origen answereth him away with Celsus his counsel saying that we must pray to Angels and let us not so much as afford any little audience unto it for we must pray to him alone who is God over all and we must pray to the word of God his only begotten and the first-born of all Creatures and whereas Celsus had further said that we must offer first-fruits unto Angels and prayers as long as we live that we may find them propitious unto us Answer is returned by Origen in the name of the Christians that they held it rather fit to offer first fruits unto him who said let the earth bring forth grass Gen. 1. the herb yielding seed that is to the Creator of the world and to whom we give the first fruits saith he to him also do we send our prayers having a great high Priest that is entered into the heavens Jesus the Son of God pag. 239. Again in his fifth book he lays down this conclusion All prayers and supplications and intercessions and thanksgivings are to be sent up unto God the Lord of all by the high Priest who is above all Angels being the Living word and God for to call upon Angels the like may be said of Saints departed we not comprehending the knowledge of them which is above the reach of man is not aggreeable to reason and if by supposition it were granted that the knowledge of them might be comprehended their very knowledge declaring their nature to us and the charge over which every one of them is set would not permit us to presume to pray unto any other but unto God the Lord over all who is abundantly sufficient for all by our Saviour the Son of God 5. Athanasius saith never any man prayed to receive any thing from God and the Angels or any created being l. 4. Cont. Arian the Papists say frequently Deus custodiat te Virgo Maria. neither did ever any body conceive such a form of prayer God and the Angel give thee such a thing but on the contrary he begs it from the Father and the Son by reason of their unity and uniform reason of giving 6. That of Saint Austins is very worthy to be pondered whom should I find that might reconcile me unto thee should I have gone unto the Angels he might as well have added Saints with what prayer with what Sacraments many endevouring to return unto thee and not being able to do it by themselves as I hear he then had no experience of it from the Churches practice have tryed these things and have fallen into the desire of curious visions and were accounted worthy of illusions 7. In Cap. 1. ad Rom. See an excellent place parallel to this in Arnob. adv Gentes l. 3. p. 101 102. Saint Ambrose or whoever was the Author of the commentaries upon Saint Pauls Epistles extant among his works saith those that are ashamed of their neglecting God are wont to use this miserable excuse that by those Saints or Angels we may go to God as to a King by his Officers go too saith he is there any man so mad or so unmindful of his safety as to give the kings honour to an Officer whereas if any shall be found but to treat of sucha matter they are justly condemned as guilty of high Treason and yet those men think themselves not guilty who give the honour of Gods name to a creature and leaving the Lord adore their fellow servants as though there were any thing more that could be reserved to God for therefore do men go to the King by tribunes or Officers because the King is but a man and knoweth not to whom he may commit the State of the Common wealth but to procure the favour of God from whom nothing is hid we need no spokesman but a devout mind for wheresoever such a one shall speak unto him he will Answer him So then to go to God by others is to neglect God and to adore our fellow creature it is a miserable excuse yea 't is to give the honour of God to a creature and so Idolatry a superfluous thing and consequently superstitious in those who esteem it necessary Farther Sect. 21 the Antients put God into the very definition or description of prayer and therefore cannot be thought to have esteemed it lawfull to pray to any other or to Saints whom they esteemed not to be Gods Orat. in Julit Mart. Orat. 1. de Or. thus Basil prayer is a request of some good thing which is made by pious men to God Greg. Nysen prayer is a conference with God and again it is a request of good things which is offered with supplication unto God Chrysost 2. de Orat. dom In Gen. Hom. 30 de Orat. l. 2. Prayer is a colloquy or discourse with God and again every one that prays discourseth with God and Damascene Prayer is an ascension of the mind to God as a request of things that are fit from God Again Sect. 22 they tell us that prayer is to be made to God alone and therefore not to Saints or Angels In Ps 5. ad Deum solum dirigitur Tom. 10. vide Forb confid mod p. 295. In 1 Cor. Hom. 1. thus to omit Saint Ambrose above cited Saint Basil saith Prayer is not directed to man but to God alone Saint Ephraim to the O Lord and to none besides thee do I make my prayer and further Chrysost on those words with all that call upon the name of the Lord giveth this Exposition not of this or that Creature but of the Name of the Lord. Again on these words do all in the name of the Lord
to what these testimonies seem to speak nor doth he there say as our Author cites him Baptisme alone may suffice to the salvation of Infants indeed one of the places tels us that there is full remission of sins in Baptisme and consequently if the person Baptized should instantly depart this life si continuo consequatur ab hac vita migratio he will not be obnoxious to any thing agreeable to which is the place cited from venerable Bede but hence we can only infer that St. Austin thought in such a case of absolute necessity they might be dispensed with through the mercy of God but yet 't is evident he held they had a right to the Sacrament and that ordinarily it was necessary to their obtaining life eternal Which also most evidently appears from the Book cited by our Author cap. 24. he cites cap. 22. From an Antient and as I suppose Apostolical Tradition the Churches of Christ have this deeply setled in them that without Baptisme and the participation of the Lords Supper no man can attain to the Kingdom of God nor yet to life eternal which after he had endeavoured to prove from 1 Peter 3. and John 6. he proceeds thus If therefore so many testimonies Divine convince us that everlasting life is not to be expected without Baptisme and the body and blood of Christ 't is in vain to promise it to children without them Now if this opinion which St. Austine saith was so deeply setled in the See Austin ep 95. De usu Patrum p. 263 264. Church of God and which was held by Innocent the first by St. Cyprian and others as Dally may inform you be not a flat contradiction to the Trent Councils Anathema upon those who hold Parvulis necessariam esse Eucharistiae communionem let any reasonable man judge CHAP. X. The Question stated by Mr. C. Sect. 1. Prayer for the dead infers not Purgatory Sect. 3. The Doctrine of the Church of Rome not faithfully related Sect. 4. Prayer for the dead not of Apostolical Antiquitie Sect. 5. The Testimony of St. Denis considered Sect. 6. Of Tertullian Sect. 7. Of St. Cyprian Sect. 8. St. Chrysostome Sect. 9. Eusebius Sect. 10. Epiphanius Sect. 11. An evasion confuted Sect. 12. St. Ambrose Sect. 13. St. Austin not for Purgatory Sect. 14. Mr. C s. Dilemma considered Sect. 15. Arguments against Purgatory Sect. 16 17. Mr. C s. Argument Answered S. 18 19. IN this Chapter our Author tells us Sect. 1 That the Church obligeth all Catholicks no further Sect. 4. 5. 111 112. then simply to believe there is a State or place of Souls in which they are capable of receiving help or ease by Prayers whereupon he gives us a Prayer of the Mass which mercifully desires to all that rest in Christ a place of refreshment light and peace through Christ our Lord and also another which beseecheth the Lord to absolve the soul of his servant from all the Chains of his sin Now saith he if it can be demonstrated That by the Universal practice of the Church such Prayers as these were made for the dead it unavoydably follows that the souls for whom they are made are neither in Heaven nor Hell and if so where are they Dr. Pierce speak like an honest man Sect. 1 Answer This is a shrewd Argument which forceth the Doctor either to lose his Honesty or his Cause But sure the Case is not so desperate For were this the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which yet is an evident untruth and were these Prayers used from the beginning and that through the Universal Church of God which cannot be proved yet would I defie his Conclusion and his Argument to infer it For 1. Sect. 2 If Prayer for a place of refreshment exclude the person prayed for at present out of Heaven then is there not one Saint one Martyr nay not the Virgin Mary her self now in Heaven seeing the Prayer begs this to all that rest in Christ Sess 9. De invocatione Sanctorum and then farewel the Council of Trent which talks of Saints reigning with Christ aeterna felicitate in Coelo fruentium Nay the Liturgy of Saint James prayes for the Spirits of all flesh which they had prayed for and which they had not from righteous Abel to that very day that they might rest in the Region of the living in the Kingdome of God in the delights of Paradise in the bosome of Abraham Isaac and Jacob And yet will our Authour say That there is not one of these souls in Heaven And so for the absolving of their sins which is his second instance The Liturgy of Saint Crhysostom Prayes for all the Fathers and Brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that had gone before them for all that had laboured and administred in the Holy Function before them for the forgiveness of the sins of the builders of their Mansions worthy to be had in perpetual remembrance and prayes God to pardon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all the Orthodox Fathers and Brethren which slept in the Communion of God in the hope of the Resurrection and Eternal Life Dall de Satisfact page 510. And likewise Saint Augustin prayes for his Mother that the Lord would pardon her sins Confes l. 9 c. 13 I know O Lord saith he That she was merciful and from her heart forgave her Debtors Do thou therefore forgive her debts if she hath contracted any after her Baptisme for so many years Forgive her Lord forgive her I beseech thee do not thou enter into judgment with her And so on and yet the same Austin tells us what ever it be that is signified by Abrahams bosome there his Mother is ibi vivit nam quis alius tali animae locus for what other place was fitting for her Of such prayers our Author may find good store in Dall ubi supra pag. 520. Now then is Abrahams bosome Purgatory Are all the Orthodox Fathers in Purgatory or if not is it not evident that the Church hath made such prayers for those that are not in Purgatory Sect. 4 2. We shall tell him in the sequel of the Chapter That these prayers of the Fathers depended partly upon suppositions exploded by the Romanist himself partly upon other things which cannot suppose a Purgatory in the mild'st sence Sect. 5 But is it true that the Romanist's Purgatory is onely a place wherein souls are capable of receiving help or ease by prayers why then may it not be Heaven for the souls there may be help't to a fuller state of Glory by our prayers as the Fathers generally affirm 2. The Trent Council tells us that the Catholick Church out of Scripture and the ancient Tradition of the Fathers and the holy Councils hath taught us that there is a Purgatory and thereupon commands the Bishops to be diligent that the sound Doctrine of Purgatory taught by the Fathers and Councils should be believed held and every where preached Now
being conjoyn'd to his Brother He enjoyeth the pleasure of everlasting Life blessed are you both If my Oraisons can prevail any thing no day shall overslip you in silence no Oration shall pass you over unhonoured no night shall steal by wherein I will not bestow upon you some portion of my Prayers with all Oblations will I frequent you Onely the mischief is he doth not add till I find a Deliverance of you from Purgatory or any such words Indeed in his Oration on the death of the Emperour Theodosius he tells us that he will follow him to the Region of the living nor will he leave him till by his Prayers and tears he hath brought him into that place his deserts did challenge quò sua merita vocant viz. Into the Holy Mount of God where there was everlasting life where there was no Contagion of Corruption no sighings no grief no company of the dead doth he understand it of Souls then must none of the Souls of the dead be in heaven of bodies I hope our bodies must not go to purgatory with our souls But the Region of the Living where this mortall shall put on Immortality this Corruptible Incorruption But yet he presently tells us that Theodosius remains in light and glories in the companies of the Saints purgatory to be sure was a place that he had cause to glory of and enjoys rest for his soul they rest very quietly sleep in utramque aurem in purgatory Yea a little before he told us that he now enjoy'd Eternal Light I suppose as being enlightned by the fire of purgatory and continual tranquillity and for the things which he did in this body he rejoyceth in the fruits of Gods reward and was that think you purgatory and because he loved the Lord his God he hath obtain'd the society of the Saints But you will say If Saint Ambrose thought him in bliss or an happy State what is the meaning of his former words Ans You may see by what is said already that he cannot Intend to bring him out of purgatory by his prayers which is sufficient for me nor 2. Can he be supposed to weep for him till his mortal did put on immortality unless he thought he should live till the Resurrection or Theodosius rise before it Well then 3. Dally will tell you that 't is usuall in Scripture and Sacred Writers to speak of things as done which they were certain would come to pass So Isaac saith Gen. 27.37 I have made Jacob Esau's Lord and all his brethren his servants because he had foretold it would be so Even thus S. Ambrose saith he will never leave praying till the Emperours resurrection because he was sufficiently assured that God would raise him unto life Eternal and transser him to heaven Now then seeing 't is as clear as the Sun that Ambrose thought them both in Heaven or in Abrahams bosome viz. The Emperours Valentinian and Theodosius is it possible he should pray for their deliverance out of purgatory what good could they need besides that which he prays for a speedy resurrection who already enjoyed the pleasures of Eternal life If Eternal life be purgatory I will not give two pence for the Popes indulgences to be deliver'd from it This being so is not our Author a brave jugler who durst adde for deliverance to Saint Ambrose and that he might not be found out Cite neither place nor tell us of what Emperour whether Theodosius or Valentinian he meant it albeit he produceth the place only to prove that the Ancients thought the Souls departed to have some present refreshment which indeed they did allow to Saints supposed to be in Abrahams bosom And that from the company of Angels and Arch-angels and the vision of Christ which they were supposed to enjoy in those receptacles the increments of Divine light and joy which Ambrose speaks of He hath four places more out of Saint Austin in behalf of purgatory Sect. 14 Confes l. 9. c. 21 But the 1. where his mother begs that she may be remembred at the Altar falls strangely short of purgatory since I have made it appear that those who were suppos'd to be in Heaven were there remembred and this remembrance was made for divers other reasons Nor 2. Is there any thing in that which Saint Austine saith De cnra per mortem c. 5. we must by no means omit necessary supplications for the Souls of the Dead that repose might be obtained to them since 't is as clear as the Sun that they pray'd for repose to all the Servants of God departed and Saint Ambrose begs rest for the Emperour Theodosius of whom he tells us that he was in rest already Nor will the 3. place Cited out of his Enchiridion do him service viz. C. 110. That the Sacrifice is offer'd as a thanksgiving for Martyrs but as a propitiation for others For 1. It is evident that Saint Austine when he wrote this book was of Saint Chrysostoms opinion for as much as he tells us Eâ—ch c. 110. that these whom our suffrages do profit they do it either that they may have a full remission or a more tolerable damnation And then no wonder if he allowed the Sacrifice of the Eucharist or prayers to profit for the remission of sins 2. It might be offered for a propitation in respect of others and they not in purgatory but in Abrahams bosome as well as Saint Augustine might pray so earnestly for his mother that God would be propitious to her and yet she be in Abrahams bosom as above is manifested As to that 4. Instance which he calls convincing Ser. 32. de verbis Apost Note that this 32. Sect. is not to be found in the Index of Possidius the outmost that can be gathered from it is that in Saint Austin's and the Churches judgement it was not to be doubted that our Brethren were helped by these prayers so that God might deal with them more mercifully then their sins deserved and that prayers and offerings were made for them out of an intention of commending them to Gods mercy and what of all this For 1. Doth not the same Austine pray that God would deal more mercifully with his mother then her sins deserv'd did he not commend her to Gods mercy albeit he verily thought she was in Abrahams bosome 2. What is this more then what Saint Paul prays for Onesiphorus that he might find mercy in that day the day of Judgement and Saint Peter's speaking of sins to be blotted out at the day of our refreshment Well then they commended their brethren to Gods mercy as knowing that they deserved these punishments from which they could not be otherwise delivered then by the clemency and mercy of God which is very true and yet makes not at all for purgatory and indeed their prayers for pardon of sins was only thus that God would at the last day proclaim them pardon'd and would not cast them
time to the English Scotch Britains Picts the Latine Tongue by perusing the Scripture a fit citation for a Chapter penned in defiance of it was made common to them all Answer Notwithstanding all this i◠it not evident that the people do not understand their service will not their own witers confesse as much Hear Billet on this subject cited by Cassander What shall we say of our times l. de off pij viri p. 41. wherein scarce or not at all either he that heareth or readeth understandeth what he heareth or readeth and Cassander himself saith it were to be desired that consideration should be had of the people according to the mandate of the Apostle and that the ordinary and vulgar sort of believers might not for ever be excluded wholly from all communion in prayers and divine service Yea was there ever any Papist that durst say the people understood their Latine Service In a word either they do understand it so far as to be able to joyn with the Priest or not if the latter to what end is this Answer produced by you If the former what need of all the former evasions what need of an interpreter of their Mass of Manuals and other helps to understand the Churches prayer Doubtlesse the Peasants in France and Carters in England understand Latine both alike and the recourse of the service once a year is very like to help them much Secondly If there were lesse reason for a change in France and Italy c. why had we not a change in England why have they not in Germany Ireland c Yea Retento ubique cujusque Ecclefia antiquo ritu why doth the Council of Trent require that the old custom of Latine service should every where remain To conclude in your citation of venerable Bede Sect. 29 you shamefully abuse us his words are these Haec Britannia in praesenti juxta numerum librorum quibus Lex divina scripta est quinque gentium linguis unam eandemque summae veritatis verae sublimitatis scientiam scrutatur confitetur Anglorum Britannorum Scotorum Pictorum Latinorum quae meditatione Scripturarum caeteris omnibus est facta communis That is in short Britain at present enjoyes five Tongues English Scots Picts British and Latine which by meditation of the Scripture is made common to them all that is some learned men there are in all these parts some Scots Picts English c. that have attained to a knowledge of the Latine Tongue John Trevison l. 5. c. 24. but yet that the Vulgar did not understand it and that Bede could not so imagine is Evident because this Bede Translated a part of the Bible into the Saxon Tongue for the peoples use L. 4. c. 24. Yea and in this same Historie tells us of a certain Brother in the Monastery of the Abhess Hilda Quicquid ex divinis literis per interpretes disceret Cuncta quae audiendo discerc poterat See Dr. Field ubi supra who would presently express in verse in his own Tongue that is in the English whatsoever he learned by Interpreters out of the Holy Books and whatsoever by hearing he could possibly learn he turned it into most sweet Poems And no wonder if the Scriptures were read in Latine by the Saxons when as Learned men are of Opinion they knew not how before Bedes time to write in their own Language CHAP. XVI The Trent Councils Decree touching Invocation of Soints Sect 1. The Romanists practice Sect. 2. Mr. Cressies Pleas considered Sect. 3. His Argument from begging the Prayers of the living Sect. 4. No Evidence that Saints pray for us in general or particular Sect. 5 6. His Argument to prove the presence of Angels with us confuted Sect. 7. Of the Sphere of their activity Sect. 8. Whether God reveals our prayers to Saints Sect. 9. Rev. 5 8.8 3. No proofs of the Saints offering up our prayers to God Sect. 10. His Argument from Miracles answered Sect. 11. Some Authorities produced by Mr. Cr. very inconsequent as that of Saint Hilary the Council of Chalcedon and Saint Austin Sect. 12. The testimony of St. Basil abused by Mr. C. Sect. 13. Saint Chrysostoms testimony considered Sect. 14. Saint Ambrose Sect. 15. St. Austine Sect. 16. The passages from Theodoret and Nysen spurious Sect. 17. Dr. Pierces Argument from Saint Austin vindicated Sect. 18. No footsteps of this in the Old Testament Sect. 19. Nor in the New Sect. 20. the Testimonies of Irenaeus Tertullian Saint Cyprian Origen and others produced against it ibid. The judgement of the Fathers further evidenced 1. From their putting God into the Definition of prayer Sect. 21. Their affirming God alone to be the Object of it Sect. 22. Their arguing Christ to be truly God on that account Sect. 23. The Council of Laodicea against it Sect. 24. As also that of Constantinople Ibid. The Opinions of many of the Fathers contrary to it Sect. 25. The Conclusion Sect. 26. IN this Chapter we have the Definition of the Trent Council touching the Invocation of Saints P. 179. wherein we are told That it is good and profitable to invocate them to have recourse to their prayers help and assistance for the obtaining good things from God by his Son Jesus Christ P. 199 180. And further that they are impiously perswaded who hold the invocating them to pray for us to be idolatry repugnant to Gods Word or contrary to the honour of the one Mediator Jesus Christ or that it is a foolish thing to supplicate them with words or mind On the contrary we say that the invocation practised by the Church of Rome is 1. Superstitious and Idololatrical 2. Derogatory to our Lord Jesus Christ 3. Repugnant to Gods Word and 4. That to pray to them especially with the mind is foolish All this might be evinced with a little pains but it is already done in many Treatises of the Romanists Idolatry and therefore I shall content my self to shew their practice and leave it to impartial considering men to judge And first Solve polluti labii reatum nunc potens nostri meritis opi mispectorisdures lapides repelle they pray to them for pardon of sins thus the Roman Breviary in the Nativity of Saint John Baptist Thou that art powerful break the hard stones of our hearts by thy rich merits and absolve as from the guilt of a polluted lip And if you would be so charitable as to think that they intend no more then that the Saints should pray for their absolution they will not suffer you to be so for they elsewhere have it Nos à peccatis omnibus solvite jussu quaesumus quorum pracepto subditur salus languor omnium Brev. Rom. in Cor. Apost speaking to the Apostles You that shut Heaven with a word and loose its Locks we pray you command that we be absolved from all our sins for the health and languishing of all men is subject
so Again Mr. C. informs us Sect. 5 that the most learned and sober of our party question not whether the Saints pray for us in general Answer But let me tell him that it is generally questioned by our French Divines Chamier solves all their Arguments with the greatest perspicuity except that single one which is taken from the advancement of their Charity whence you infer that they should be more respectful of our welfare then they were on Earth where they did afford us the benefit of their Prayers but this Argument albeit the most plausible is yet unconsequent for whilest they were here on Earth they haply procured good men to exhort their Relations unto Piety if Ministers spent themselves in preaching and the like but in Heaven they send no Angels that I ever heard of on such errands nor have we any Preachers from the dead Whilest they were here they were sollicitous touching the welfare of their absent friends but do they now think you ask their Guardian Angel how 't is with them Secondly Notwithstanding they have their Charity augmented yet will it not follow that they must pray for their friends below much less for others seeing haply the very knowledge of their friends may be hid from them and were it otherwise it may seem to be grievous to them to consider in what state many of their Relations have been left add to this that they have no certainty that they do not dy the next moment after them Yea lastly how can any man assure me that the Saints in Heaven pray at all Secondly P. 182. S. 6. You tell us these Learned sober men will not deny that they may and do pray personally for their former known acquaintance as Saint Austin believed his Mother did for him Answer This I have already obviated and albeit some who are not willing to think contrary to what some Fathers do allow of may grant it to you yet seeing you can produce neither Scripture for it nor the universal consent of Fathers To. 2. S. 8. And seeing your Arguments are so clearly answered by Chamier we take the liberty to deny or at least to question it Once more Ibid. Yov tell us they will grant that albeit they be in Heaven they may either by Gods Relation or the Revelation of Angels be informed of the Prayers made to them by any others on Earth Answer That this is not impossible at least for God to do we willingly acknowledge but I very much doubt whether any Protestants allow that they actually do so or that it is probable they should be thus acquainted with our desires or if any doe they are never the more Learned for it Secondly 'T is not perhaps impossible there may be men in the Moon and they good Christians and that if a Papist should pray unto them God or his Angels might reveal it And yet I suppose should they upon this account become Petitioners unto them they would be thought little better then Lunaticks yea the same may be said of the Saints in Purgatory which you affirm of the Saints in Heaven and why then do you not pray unto them Will you refuse the assistance of those who are perfected in Charity and other Graces and consequently whose Prayers God hears more willingly then your own will not their prayers be more effectual for sure in Purgatory they will be servent or will they refuse to do us the kindness who do the like for them sure one good turn deserves another and if they will be so surly to us we with the leave of his Holiness will be so to them But to proceed Mr. C. P. 183. will tell us that albeit this rests upon so many uncertainties yet is not that sufficient to hinder them from acknowledging that the practice of invocating Saints by name is very beneficial to them and that on these accounts 1. P. Id. ibid. Because the Angels are continually present with us on the Earth and that it is by them we are defended from the Devils malice who having such a wonderful strength exceeding ours would otherwise destroy us all in our sins nor can it be said that God hinders him seeing he doth not ordinarily interpose his power immediately in Natural Actions Answer This then is the best figment they can Imagine and yet it is most strangely ridiculous to any considering man for was it not the protection of God which kept Satan from Job so that he could do nothing without his Commission and when he had given him Commission could not go beyond it and may he not as easily do the same to others Again secondly the Scripture tells us the Angels are Mistring spirits sent forth for the good of those onely that believe and why doth not the Devil post the wicked down into Hell presently seeing they have no such good Angel to relieve them 3. Will Mr. Crossie say that all the Cattle the sheep and Camels and Oxen yea the Asses of Job had their Guardian Angels if so we will allow our Authour one if not then let him tell us why Satan complain'd he could not come at them Again Have the Tombes of the Martyrs the holy reliques and Images of their Saints every one an Angel to keep them if not why doth not Satan break them or conveigh them away Unless perhaps he approves of your Idolatry and how are ye sure that your Reliques are not changed by him Once more and I have done Have all the Houses in London all the Papists Houses in Rome as many Angels as will guard them keep the Devil from setting fire on them If so the blessed Angels are well employed if not why doth not that Gand Enemy of Mankinde set fire on them every Night Again when on the Lords Day all the Angels of so many Millions of souls come to Saint Peter to tell him such a one in treats his Prayers for such a thing who guards the persons committed to their charge the while or if these Angels be bound to stay here who carries up the prayers to Saint Peter Again seeing so many prayers are put up to the Virgin Mary Surely she must do nothing else but pray there being not one moment when some or other do not pray to her and then what time will she have to hear these nimble TÃ bellarii telling her of New suitors must they interrupt her in her Prayers Again These Saints must not only be told when such a one prayes but whether Hypocritically or no and so I suppose that question must be asked of the Nuncio's Now here is work enough for Saint Mary to receive so many Messengers every day and to enquire whether her suppliants pray in sincerity or not But haply it may be said if any one pray Hypocritically the Guardian Angel will not present that Prayer Answer Very good but seeing the Angel Guardian knows not the heart How will he be able to judge of this Once more when all
the Saints in Heaven are prayed to at once as it is in many Collects and peculiarly on all Saints Dayes surely that day is not an holy day to the Guardian Angel who must be fain to trot to all the Saints in Heaven and acquaint them that Serenus Cressie being very sick and weak desires their prayers But when they pray to all Angels then the poor Angel must not travel over all the Heavens onely but the Earth to boot But we will not deal too severely with him let him proceed and thus he doth it History tells us that Magiclans have alwaies the Devil ready to come at their call why then should not Angels be witnesses of our Actions P. 184. and especially our prayers which as the Scrripture saith they offer as Incense to God Now to I eave the Scripture till anon Here we have more work for the Angel for seeing 't is an Angel Apoc. 8.3 that offers up the prayers and incense of all Saints the Guardian Angel must make a journey to him to unless you will have him to be Christ which will do our Author but little service 2. History likewise will tell us that Magicians and Witches can swim over the Sea in a shell can creep through a key-hole Can dip their finger in a little juice and flie away out of the Chimnie he may believe one as soonas the other Lastly the number of Magitians I hope is few in comparison of other men and so there is some difference as to that for one Devil may better afford to be nigh them especially seeing his service is so much promoted thereby As to that dispute of Saint Austine which concludes the Section I say 1. That he was very uncertain in it and one while denies and again suspects that such a thing might be 2. He saith only possit fieri it may be done this way And again 3. Vt quaedam cognoscant that they may know something and how little service this will do him every one may see P. 184. S. 8. 2. He further tells us We are ignorant how great the sphere of Activitie of the glorified Saints may be in respect of this whole visible world perhaps saith he in the words of Spalatensis the whole sensible world may be no more to one of them then its proper body to an humane soul informing it Answ And are not these men think you put to their shifts who are fain to coin such inventions to salve their Hypothesis But tell me is it probable they inform the whole world so as to be present each of them in every part of the world Or Secondly to operate in each part of the world albeit not present there If the first then will they be little short of omnipresent nor will it be proper to God to fill Heaven and Earth and they being in Hell as well as Heaven and also in Purgatorie How do they escape the fire How â—re the Angels said to ascend to Heaven and descend from it Is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only How are the souls of the Fathers delivered from their limbus said to depart thence and to be with Christ to be absent from the body and present with the Lord was Lazarus's soul carried to Heaven and afterwards extended Again to what end is this extension seeing they may be happie without it and why should we imagine it seeing here 't is certain they are not extended beyond their bodies If the second let them tell me how or by what Operation a soul that is in Heaven can tell that such a one who praies in his mind only is praying to him And suppose two were praying together and the one prayed to Peter and the other to Paul by what operation can these spirits discern that the one prayed to him and not the other I suppose a Praier to Saint Paul makes a different motion in their Orb of Aether but then how doth St Paul know who it is that praies to him Perhaps different men make different motions but Saint Paul never knew them and how shall he be informed Why the Guardian Angel must go up and tell him 't is S. C. that makes such a motion and haply he will remember it But how will he know when he prayes Hypocritically why truly when an Hypocrite praies it makes a different motion from a sincere one in the spirits Orb of Air. This Platonical stuff is all that I can imgine to salve the Hypotheses Si quid novisti rectius istis candidus imperti Lastly be it that their presence or operations were so vast yet could they not judge of the heart seeing to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is proper to God and consequently must be as zealous for an Hypocrite as a devout Christian Thirdly Sect. 9 we cannot tell saies he what things God may reveal to them Answ Nor he whether he reveals any thing to them at all and therefore in these things he doth most evidently 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. What a ridiculous thing is this to suppose such a Circle that when a man hath made a praier that praier should come to God and be revealed by him to a Saint and that Saint bring it to God again 3. Why must he be thought to reveal this to the Spirits in Heaven and not to the Souls in Purgatorie or if equally why are not they also praied to 4. But it is evident from Scripture that God doth not make any revelations of this kind for 't is said Eccles 9.5 The Dead know nothing that is done in this world neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the Sun And again Abraham is ignorant of us Esay 93.16 5. Bellar. himself confutes this Evasion by 2 Arguments 1. If it were so the Church would not say so boldly to all Saints Orate pro nobis but sometimes would prayto God to reveal our desires to them 2. No good reason can be given why Saints under the Old Testament should not be invoked for God might have revealed their Petitions to them though in Limbo Patrum and sure their praiers might have been as beneficial as the praiers of such as were alive 6. Why upon the same presumption should we not pray to the Saints living for albeit their praiers be not quite so effectual as the praiers of Saints departed yet they are effectual and consequently to neglect this will be to neglect one means conducing to our welfare I say upon the same presumption for this reason why God must be supposed to reveal our Praiers can be no other then our good and would not the reason move him to reveal them to Saints on Earth as well as those in Heaven Mr. Cr. p. 185. Oh but saith our adversarie If God said to Abraham a Pilgrim on Earth shall I hide from Abraham the thing that I do how much more may we imagine tha he hideth not the mightie works of his mercie
and justice here from his Domestick Servants 'T is pitie that this Argument was not framed before the Church of Israel madeher complaint that Abraham was ignorant of her It would have taught her better divinity 2. 'T is no Demonstration sure God would not hide from Abraham the thing he was to do which concern'd so much his Brother Lot albeit he never revealed afterwards to any of his dearest servants that we read of unless his Prophets any such thing therefore he will reveal to any Saint in Heaven the praiers that are made to them by any person whatsoever By what hath been said I may be bold to infer that the invocation of Saints is very foolish and if so that the Church of Rome is not infallible But our Authour claps in two places of Scripture without any coherence at all Sect. 10 to prove I know not what and albeit they have been answered an 150. times he shall not bate me a single unite Yet doth he bolt them forth without any notice of the answers given We read saith he not only an Angel but every one of the four and twentie Elders to have in their hands golden Censers and Vials full of Odours Rev. 8.3.5.8 which are the prayers of the Saints that is of their Brethren upon Earth Now to take these two places in their Order 1. Revel 8.3 We read another Angel came and stood before the Altar having a golden Censer and many Odours were given to him that he should offer them with the prayers of all Saints upon the Golden Altar which was before the Throne and verse 4. The smoke of the Odours which came of the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God out of the Angels hand Now 1. Let it be granted that to one Angel was this given to offer Odours to come up with the praiers of all Saints How doth it follow that they are to be invocated or that he knows when any particular person praies to him or any other Saint May not he offer up his incense continually as knowing onely this that praiers are made continually 2. If one Angel do this How will it follow that all do it or that all Saints 3. If this be a created Angel is there not a fine round of Praiers 1. They are carried by an Angel or revealed by God to the Saints then he pteseuts them to the Angel the Angel to Christ and Christ to the Father 2. This Angel is said to offer Odours to come up with the praiers of all Saints which surely is to do somwhat which may make them more acceptable to God and will they say that the Virgin Mary is no Saint or that any Created Angel offers somwhat to God which makes her praier more acceptable Well but we denie it to have been a created Angel but say it was the Angel of the Covenant who by the incense of his merits and intercessions offers the praiers of all Saints to God and makes them more acceptable unto him For 't is manifest that here is reference to that which was used to be done in the Levitical administration where the Priest entering the Temple offered Incense on the Golden Altar whilest the people in the Court put up their praiers to God Luk. 1.10 Whence we may understand that phrase that the Angel offered his Odours with the prayers of the Saints Now the Levitical Priest who offered incense was a type of Christ not of the Angels and this is that which the Apostle intimates that Christ the Angel of the Covenant Typified by the Levitical Priest offers up the praiers and sighes of his members groaning under the Tyrannie of wicked men and by the incense of his merits makes them acceptable unto God The second Scripture is Apocal. 5.8 where we are told That twenty foure Elders fell down before the Lamb having every one of them Harps and Golden Vials full of Odours in their hands which are the prayers of the Saints Answ 1. Many interpret these of the Elders of the Church as Beda in verse 10. Here it is more plainly declared that the Beasts and the Elders are the Church redeemed by the blood of Christ and gathered from the Nations also he sheweth in what Heaven they are saying they shall reign upon the Earth And so Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 33. Ambrose on the Apccalyps and Haimo 2. Vossius will tell you that here is nothing intended but Eucharistical praiers not petitory and the four and twenty Elders onely intimate that the whole Family of Christians in Earth and Heaven did render continuall Doxologies to God for the redemption of the World by his Son There is one Argument of greater moment insisted on and that is taken from the miraculous effects not onely of prayers directed to God at the monuments of the Saints but also directed to the Saints themselves Now to this I answer First By denyal that any approved testimonies can be produced of such miraculous effects wrought by any prayers immediately directed unto Saints the Instances which Mr. C. refers us to shall be answered anon Secondly I say that these pretended miracles may justly be suspected for Satanical delusions and that upon several accounts First From the silence of all undoubted Antiquity of any such Sepulchre wonders in the three first ages albeit the Christians long before had used to keep their assemblies at the Coemiteries and Monuments of their Martyrs When God had ceased to exert his power as in former times that he should thus freshly exert it upon these occasions seems incredible and that which cannot easily be admitted by considering men who are acquainted with the Artifices of the Devil Secondly from the nature of them which rendreth them very ridiculous Basilius Selutensis l. 2. c. 10. Thus of Saint Thecla we are told that they who watch the night before her festivity do at at that time yearly see her driving a fiery Chariot in the aire and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus a place which she did principally affect in regard of the commodity and pleasantness of the scituation that when she had demanded of Alypius the Grammarian C. 24. forsaken by the Physitians what he ailed and he had replied upon her in that of Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all things the Martyr being delighted partly with the man and partly with the verse for you must know that after her death she was much affected with Poetry and Oratory C. 21. 24. and continually delighted with such as would be accurate in her praises conveyed a certain round stone into his mouth with the touch whereof he was presently healed Yea the same Basil tells us how having prepared an Oration for her anniversary festivity the day before it should be pronounced he was taken with such an extream pain in his ear C. 27. that the Auditory was like to be quite disappointed But that the Martyr the same night
how many half-pence he would have to buy his Cloak cited from the 22. Book De Civ Dei and the eighth Chapter to let pass the corruption of this Chapter by Ludovicus Vives ingenuously confessed We say that it is thus to be interpreted He prayed viz. to God at the twenty Martyrs that is at their Tombes or Monuments so in Basil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is at their Monuments as above we have shew'd and this Exposition the very words do lead us to for who ever heard of orare ad aliquem to pray unto one But you will Object that the boyes jeered him as if he had begged of the Martyrs fifty half pence Answer It can be no more concluded hence that he prayed unto them then that our Saviour prayed unto Elias because the Jews were pleased to say so Next for his 32. and 33. Homilies de diversis I could have told him that Bellarmine himself doubts of 43. of them Rivet of them all but especially of those which were added by the Divines of Lovain and indeed we have reason to suspect what ware you obtrude upon us and therefore I take leave to pass the sentence thence cited over Lastly that which is cited from his Book De cura pro mortuis I interpret thus Ut dum recolunt ubi sint pofita corum quos diligunt corpora cisdem Sanctis illos tantum patronos susceptos apud Deum adjuvandos orando commendent That whilest they call to mind where the bodies of those that are dear to them are laid they commend them to the Saints as to Patrons that by their prayers or praying for them they may be helped with the Lord and then the Argument is null Secondly They may very well be said to be commended to the Saints by praying to God for them either at the Monuments of the Saints and Martyrs or at the remembrance of the Saints and Martyrs for that Saint Austine speaketh of such prayers as were to be directed to God is evident from the very next Chapter where continuing his discourse he tells us that it very much concernes any where they place the body of their deceased who pray for his Spirit unto God because both the preceeding affection hath chosen an holy place and the body being placed there the remembrance of that holy place renews and augments the affection So then they do commend them by praying but it is to God not to Saints and Angels See Doctor Fernes Answer to Spencer P. 276. Nor is it any thing to the purpose that followeth viz. That whensoever the Mind recounts where the body of some dear friend lies buried and straight the place occurs renowned for the name of some Martyr the affection of him who thus remembreth and prayeth forthwith commends the beloved Soul to the same Martyr For this may be done by praying to God as we do for the help and assistance of the holy Angels that he would commend the Soul unto such a Martyr Secondly This prayer albeit poured out to God may be stiled a commendation of him to the Martyr because done at the Monument or remembrance of the Martyr even as Saint Austine in this very place tells us Meritis Martyris that the believing that the Soul is helped by the merits of the Martyr Supplicatio quaedam est is a kind of prayer and if any thing profiteth it is this We have two other Authours in the front Sect. 17 but the mischief is that they are both spurious Tom. 2. l. 8. de uno Med. c. 7. And 1. for Greg. Nyssen you have five Arguments produced against him by Chamier none of which are touched by Mr. C. or Bishop Forbs yea haply this was the reason that he cited him in gross and would not vouchsafe to direct us to the place Secondly As for that of Theodoret it is proved spurious not only because we have no mention of it in Nicephorus to whom you may add Photius but also because what is here cited from him directly contradicts what he hath in his undoubted Comment on the Colessians this Argument you manfully skip over and for your Answer to the first that he mentions not some which are extant in Gennadius if you had looked into the Preface of your Gennadius you might have found that there were some things added to him that he approves variety of Authours rejected by the Church that he is under the censure of your Catholicks at Lovain enough to crack his credit with you And lastly that he names but two of his Books one of which we have though imperfect the other is no where to be found And yet if all these Fathers had given in their suffrages for you they would not have advantaged you one whit Seeing many of our Divines acknowledge that about the fourth age in which all your Fathers are comprehended this corruption began to be introduced Albeit to tell you of it in transitu Vossius who is cited by you for this confession doth in his tenth Thesis manifestly restrain his words to some telling us that plurimi invalescenti se errori opponcbant p. 201. That very many opposed this errour The Doctor had cited a passage from Saint Austine Sect. 18 which affirmes that the Saints were not invoked by the Priest who sacrificeth Now to this you tell us First That here is an evidence for a sacrifice yea and this Propitiatory But how can you free your self from disingenuous dealing when even in the place cited by you in answer to this Argument Saint Austine tells you that he means onely Sacramentum Memoriae which Protestants acknowledge as well as you 2. Have you not need to rub your forehead when you so considently tell us that the Doctor saith there was no such thing as a Christian Sacrifice whereas that which hath given occasion to your whole Discourse upon this subject is onely this that he tells us there were new Articles of Faith viz. The Sacrifice of the Mass the Doctrine of Purgatory imposed on us but doth he any where deny a Christian Sacrifice such as before hath been granted by us by the Trent Conventicle Secondly You tell us that the Saints are not sovereignly invocated by way of sacrifice which is a meer impertinence for S. Austin doth not say they are not sacrificed unto but are not so much as invocated by the Priest who sacrificeth farther you tell us that they are not invocated at the Mass nay nor the second or third Person of the Trinity according to the Canon of the Council of Carthage Ans Still you are resolved to be impertinent for what is this to you who in your Mass invoke the whole Trinity have 3 Collects to the second Person of the Trinity as you are told by the Reverend Bishop Andrews yea what say you to that return of his to this Answer what reason can be alledged why if the Saints may be pray'd unto they may not be so as well by
Consider what these Psalms mean The same General Practice and the like Intention of the Church therein is expressed and earnestly urged by him in the same Homily on the Epistle to the Hebrews Do we not praise God and give thanks unto him for that he hath now crowned him that is departed for that he hath freed him from his labours for that quitting him from fear be keepeth him with himself Are not the Hymnes for this End Is not the singing of Psalmes for this purpose All these be tokens of rejoycing Whereupon he thus presseth them that used immoderate mourning for the dead Thou sayest return O my soul unto thy rest for the Lord hath dealt bountifully with thee and dost thou weep Is not this Stage-playes Is it not meer simulation For if thou dost indeed believe the things that thou sayest thou lamentest idly But if thou playest and dissemblest and thinkest those things to be Fables why dost thou then sing why dost thou suffer those things that are done wherefore dost thou not drive away them that sing And in the end he concludeth somewhat prophetically That he very much feared lest by this means some grievous disease should creep in upon the Church Whether the Doctrine now maintained in the Church of Rome that the Children of God presently after their departure out of this life are cast into a Lake that burneth with Fire and Brimstone be not a spice of this disease and whether their practice in chanting of Psalmes appointed for the expression of joy and thankfulness over them whom they esteem to be tormented in so lamentable a fashion be not a part of that Scene and Pageantry at which Saint Chrysostome doth so take on I leave it unto others to judge That his fear was not altogether vain the event it self doth shew The Citation out of Eusebius touching the prayers of the people and clergy not without tears and groanings Sect. 10 De vita Constan l. 4 c. 9. for the soul of Constantine what doth it infer more then this that they were earnest with God that his soul might be partaker of some of those various benefits which we mentioned before and none of which at all refer to Purgatory But yet notwithstanding that they thought the Emperour in a State of Bliss must needs be granted if we suppose them to have believed what he told them being at the point of death that he had now attained the true life Euseb de vita Constant l. 4 c. 63. and that none but himself did understand of what happiness he was made partaker and that therefore he hastned his going immediately to God As to that of Epiphanius Sect. 11 telling us That prayers made fâ—â— the dead profit us albeit they do not blot out entirely all mortall sins First if this word stand which he puts in then must it be granted that they alleviate even Mortal sins and are well made for those that dye under the guilt of them and then he is necessarily to be understood in Saint Chrysostomes sence or else he contradicts the known Doctrine of the Church of Rome which is that those prayers are not made for any that dye under the guilt of Mortal sin And indeed if this be the sence viz. That prayers for the dead are profitable 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 albeit they do not wholly blot out the sins of those that are prayed for then must it be said that some are prayed for whose sins are not yet wholly forgiven Secondly the Case stands thus Aerius had objected if the Prayers of those here do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 altogether profit the dead then let him procure some to pray for him after he is dead that those heinous sins he hath committed may not be required at his hands and then there will be no need of his being good Now Epiphanius thus Answers He that would see more of the sence of Epiph. in this place may Consult Bishop Usher from p. 236. to 246. where he shews evidently that the Romanists are Aâ—rians not we Although the prayer for the dead do not cut off all their sins which is the onely thing thou goest about to prove yet doth it profit notwithstanding for another purpose Now from this Sentence can it not be infer'd that Epiphanius thought these prayers profitable to the cutting off of any sins which the person had committed in his life time But this is onely added because Aerius went about to prove this only that prayers made for the dead did not cut off all their sins Now whereas Sect. 10. our Author would avoid the Answer usually return'd upon their Arguments Sect. 12 By telling them that Prayers are made for Martyrs Apostles yea all Saints p. 115 Sect. 11. by the Fathers which yet they dare not say are still in Purgatory with this old Salvo that such prayers as are made for remission of sins refreshment c. are not made for them but imperfect sinners ' This reply hath been obviated already by me by shewing that such prayers as these he mentions were made for the Martyrs and Apostles as 't is more largely done by Dally Page 501. and 507. as to refreshment with such abundant Evidence as I am confident Master Cressie will not be able to reply unto it and as to remission of sins with convictive Evidence Yea further they prayed for them that they might be delivered from the punishments of Hell and obtain everlasting bliss as appears from the Liturgy of Saint James That they might pass by the Gates of Hell and the wayes of Darkness From the prayers used of old in the Roman Church For all departed in the Confession of the Holy Trinity that they might be separated from the punishments of the wicked and obtain everlasting bliss And from what the Romanists say daily in their Mass Desiring the Lord Jesus that he would deliver the souls of all the Faithful that are departed from the pains of Hell and from the deep Lake and from the mouth of the Lion that Hell do not swallow them up that they fall not into darkness Sect. 13 Well but our Author proceeds and tells us that indeed many of these prayers did regard the day of Judgement p. 115. Sect. 11. and the glory ensuing yet withall that they thought to some souls a present refreshment did accrew in the intermedial condition is evident from what Saint Ambrose saith He would never cease his Intercessions for the Soul of the dead Emperour till he found a deliverance by them And we answer him Where is it that Saint Ambrose saith so And of what Emperour Doth he think we have nothing to do but to read over Authors to find out his Quotations Quotations did I say or falfifyings For let us hear Saint Ambrose thus speaking Let us believe that Valentinian is ascended from the desert that is to say De Obitu Valent Imp. from this dry and unmanured place unto those flowry delights where
forth of this Index in Possevine among other European Libraries deny it and for a taste of the Author Harken to his notable Hyperbole that the wood of the Cross is so multiplied that all the world is full of it Thirdly Sect. 7 Next for the Council of Nice he tells us p. 466. out of Cardinal Baronius that they are held a meer forgery The true Nicene Acts saith he except some fragments raked at second hand out of several Authors are sufficiently known to be all lost as being made away and having suffred shipwrack in the Arrian tempests And again whereas all ages have been most eager in the pursuit of so noble a Monument never a man could hitherto find it and concludes that now no hope remains of so fertile a vintage Nay when hard search was made for a new Nicene Canon pretended by the Bishop of Rome in defence of his supremacy and by St. Augustine himself and many Learned Bishops more messengers were dispatch'd into Greece and Egypt where the first and best Copies were News was return'd both from Atticus of Constantinople and Cyrill of Alexandria that no more of that Council could be found save onely twenty Canons Fourthly Sect. 8 As for Nyssen his Catech. Orat. he tell us first that some in their Editions leave it cut as knowing it saith the Bishop of Spalat to be corrupted So Siphanius his Basil Ed. Anno Domini 1571. others that let it pass tell us that this 37. Chap. here cited is not frequently to be found in Ancient manuscripts and that the Book is tainted with the opinions of Origen foysted into it So the Author of the Paris Edition 1573. Thirdly that it mentions Severus an Eutychian a full 100 years later then Cyrill Fourthly that it speaks contrary to Nyssen himself and Fifthly that it holds no correspondence with all that Theodoret cites thence And lastly refers us to twelve Arguments of Spalatensis against this and the following Chapter Fifthly Sect. 9 Cyrills Epistle ad Calosyr is not extant among his works and whether Cyrill of Alexandria wrote it is very uncertain And albeit I can no where come to a perusal of it yet it is capable of this sence Christ is not altered viz. the Sacrament representing Christ is not alter'd neither is his Body that is the Symbols of his body changed by being kept till another day but the virtue of Benediction and quickning grace perpetually remains in it for what is it that is blessed sure not the Body of Christ that being not present till after the benediction even when hoc est corpus meum is pronounced and therefore 't is the Eucharistical bread which he calls Christ And yet were all these Authors true they might be answered by telling our adversaries they might as well have cited our Common Prayer Book which calls the Bread Sect. 10 the Body of our Lord Christ and the Wine his Blood shed for us For we acknowledge it is so viz. Sacramentally and Representatively but not by any substantial Mutation The rest of the Fathers are quoted for adoration of the Eucharist Sect. 11 and there are but two Sentences that can seem to incline to Transubstantiation The first is that of Saint Chrysostome to wit The most pretious thing in Heaven I will shew thee plac'd upon Earth 1 Cor. 10. Hom. 24. But this may be fairly interpreted thus That it is placed upon Earth in its representation in those Elements which convey the Virtue of his Body to us and therefore deservedly are called his Body Let Chrysostome interpret himself who in his Epistle ad Caesar contra Haeres Apollinar cited by Damascen and the Collector of the Sentences of the Fathers against the Severians set forth by Turrian hath these words Before the Bread is sanctified we name it Bread but the Divine Grace sanctifying it by the means of the Priest it is freed from that Name and is esteemed worthy to be called the Lords Body although the nature of Bread remains in it And yet I must not forget to tell you p. 130. that whereas our Adversary renders a Clause of Saint Chrysostomes sentence Thou not onely seest the body it self Saint Chrysostome hath it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou dost not indced see the very same body not properly the same that the Magi saw But thou knowest both the Virtue and the whole Dispensation and art ignorant of nothing that was done being accurately 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taught all these things in the Mysteries and so the place makes more against then for him The same Answer may be returned to that of Ambrose Sect. 12 That the same flesh is in the Mysteries which the Apostles worshipped in our Lord Christ De Spir. viz. 't is in the Mystery representatively See Bishop Taylor of real Pres p 384. 't is here in Imagine as St. Ambrose elsewhere But in heaven in Veritate the Truth the substance is there Thus l. 4. De sacram C. 5. He calls it the figure of the Body and Blood of Christ and c. 4. tells us It is a wonderful power of God which makes that the Bread should remain what it is and yet be changed into another thing and then again How much more operative is the word of Christ that the things be what they were and yet are changed into another and so that which was bread before Consecration now is the Body of Christ which words because they could not answer they corrupted And thus having return'd an Answer to his Arguments we come now to vindicate our own The Learned Doctor had framed an Argument thus Sect. 13 That which remained the fruit of the Vine was not Transubstantiated But the Wine in which Christ Celebrated the Sacrament remained after Consecration the fruit of the Vine To this our Adversary answers 1. Mr. C. 132. S. 12. I confidently pronounce it evident that these * Matt. 26.29 words were neither spoken by our Lord in the same breath after the Consecration of the Chalice nor had they any regard to the Sacrament And why so I pray you Because Saint Luke mentions them after the eating of the Paschal Supper and antecedently to the Mystical Consecration of his blessed Body and Blood who saith he will write 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ans A great reason of Confidence indeed put it into Syllogivm and it runs thus That which hath reference to the Passeover and the drinking of the Cup which was annexed to it hath not Reference to the Sacrament of the Supper of our Lord But these words have reference to the former Now all their who tell us that Christ spake the sentence twice will deny his Major seeing the words might have reference to both according to their various times of utterance Now that this Interpretation must take place against our adversary I will prove because he grants it doth refer to the Pass-over in Saint Luke And evidently it refers to the Consecrated Cup in Saint Matthew
are they not Earth and taken out of the Earth But as for me I have learned to tread upon the Earth not worship it So Saint Augustin saith they are worse then bruit beasts Lib. 7. Conr. Celsum and if you are asham'd to worship the one you may be asham'd to worship the other So Origen we do not venerate Images with many other like places In Consul lit de Imag. which made Cassander cry out How far the Ancients were ab omni veneratione from all veneration of Images one Origen declares Cruces saith Mintius Felix nec Colimus nec optamus and there we find it objected to them cur nulla nota simulachra habetis Hence Lactan. l. 2. c. 7. They think there is no Religion where these Images appear not not as if they had any kept secretly but as * Dallie puts it beyond dispute because the Heathens thought it impossble to worship God without some sensible Image Saint Cyprian Why dost thou bow thy captive body before foolish Images and terrene figments God hath made thee straight and when other animals are made prona ad terram depressa thou hast a countenance erect towards God and Heaven thither look thither direct thy eyes not to Images seek God above The 36. Canon of the Iliberine Council tells us its pleasure was there should be no Images in the Church * De Imag. Ep. ad Demetr Lib. 2. cap. 19. Lactantius tells us there can be no Religion where there is an Image Saint Ambrose will tell you the Church knoweth no vain Idea's and divers Figures of Images Yea Ambr. de sugâ secul c. 5. this was so notorious to the very Heathens that when Adrian commanded that Temples should be made in all places without Images they presently conceived they were for Christians Lamprid. in vit Alexandri Severi What should I say Orig. in Cels l. 2. p. 373. there is not any Father almost but is evidently against you Nay you can scarce find out any excuse which they have not prevented with their contradiction 1. You tell us that images are instruments to call to your memories the Objects they represent Orig. tells us If we be not out of our wits we must needs laugh at this folly who look on Images and by the sight thereof offer prayer to him who is conceived thereby In Ps 113. Saint Augustine will tell you this answer is borrowed from the Heathens who use to say I neither worship the very Image nor the Devil but by corporcal representation I look upon the sign of that which I ought to worship Dissert 38. And indeed Max. Tyr. hath taught you that these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 They lead you by the hand to the remembrance of the things they represent That in procuring them you do like lovers who willingly behold the Images of those they love that so their memory may be stir'd up in them 2. Sect. 8 Your ninth Section tels us we help our selves by them to fix our thoughts upon Objects good for our souls and every where you insist upon the usefulness of them to Common people In Ps 113. But Saint Augustine saith they are very dangerous especially to them for who is it that adores or prayes beholding an Image and is not so affected as to think he is heard by it Epiphanius will warn them to avoid these helps Have this in your memories beloved Children not to bring Images into the Church nor into the Coemeteries of the Saints no not into any ordinary House but alwayes carry about the rememberance of God in your hearts Epiph. Ep. ad Joan. Hicros Tom. 1. oper Hier. Ep. 60. for it is not lawful for a Christian man to be carried about in suspence by his Eyes and the wandering of his mind He will tell you that the having them in the Church is contrary to our Religion to the authority of Scripture Give charge against it He is cited by the Fathers of the Council of Constant An. Dom. 754. Eus Hist. l. 7. C. 17. Ubi supra and tear such a one though it were the Image of our Lord and Saviour Amphilochius will adde we have no care to figure by colours the bodily Visages of the Saints in Tables because we have no need of such things but by virtue to imitate their conversations Eusebius will assert that you borrowed this Custome from the Heathens And surely Max. Tyrius lent you this pretence who tells you that the use of Images is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quoniam tenuitatis Nostrae ita poscat ratio and 't is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that was the cause of it You say that Humane nature cannot hinder it Sect. 11. They say that God and Religion forbid it And doth God forbid what humane nature cannot hinder and the Jews abhorred it had they razed out their natural principles You say that we call this Honour given to him worship sect 9 to make you odious Ans 2. Council of Nice by them General Sâ—e the places in Dally de Imag. Cat. Rom. par 1. C. 2.5.14 ut Colantur licet illis cultum adhibere In 3. par Th. quaest 24. Art 3. Orthodox Consul par 2. Reg. 1. In Ep. ad Rom. C. 1. In 3. Th. quaest 25. Art 3. disp 2. Nu. 5. Apud Cabr ib. p. 796. Hath not a General Council call'd it so an hundred times do not almost all your writers call it so Doth not your Trent Catech. require the priest to declare that the images of Christ are put in Churches that they may be Worshipped and that it is lawful to worship them and that it hath still been done to the great good of the faithfull Doth not Cajetan tell us that they are painted that they may be worshipped ut adorentur as the frequent use of the Church doth testifie And Boverius that this is the Doctrine of the Roman Church imagines piâ religione colendas esse will not Jacobus Naclantus tells you that albeit you speak warily in this matter yet the very truth is that the faithful in the Church do adore not only coram imagine sed imaginem Will not Friar Pedro de Cabrera teach you your lesson a little better that you must downright and absolutely say that images are to be worshipped in Churches and out of Churches and that the contrary is heretical And Franc. Victoria will back him in asserting it to be plainly so Yea and Arriaga for a close will tell you Haeretici negant non Exemplarium venerationem and what you plead for he does not think any Heretick so simple as to deny I might here adde half an hundred of your Authors who tell us that Images are to be worshipped with that very homage we afford to the exemplar but I let that pass for haply I may have another opportunity to acquaint you with them I shall conclude with the Roman
appeared to him and shaking him by the ear took all the pain away He addeth further C. 16. that when he begun to be weary of writing this same Book she sits her down close by him smiles whilest she reads it shews her self wonderfully pleased with it and that it behoved him to finish it The like miracles we have related by Severus of one Martinus a Monk De vita B. Mart. S. 24. Ibid. S. 17. who could see the Devil though he remained in his own substance fright him with the sign of the Cross continually who putting his hand into the mouth of a Demoniack forced the Devil out at his posteriors Yea which is most wonderful of all that could by the smell of the body Hieron in Hilarione or the clothes know what Daemon tyrannized in such a body These were the miracles that helped forward the worshipping of Saints and the monkish superstitions Thirdly Because the old Daemons worship prevailed upon the world by the same means Thus Tertullian Apol. c. 51. Search therefore the Deity of Christ whether it be true or not if it be that by the knowledge whereof a man shall be reformed to good it follows then that the false be renounced especially that whole mysterie of Daemon-worship being discovered which under the names and images of the dead through Signes Miracles and Oracles obtaineth a Divinity And Chrysostome they the Gentile Daemons oftentimes by their skill cured diseases Orat. in Judaizantes and restored to health those that were sick what should we partake therefore with them in their iniquity God forbid De Praep. Evan. l. 5. c. 2. And the like we have from Eusebius who informes us that the wicked Daemons counterfeited by working many miracles the Souls of them that were deceased and thence they were thought worthy to be celebrated with greater service But Thirdly we Answer Mr. Stillingfleet p. 351. That after the true Doctrine is confirmed by divine miracles God may give the Devil power to work if not real miracles yet such as men cannot judge by the things themselves whether they be so or no and this for tryal whether we will forsake the true doctrine confirmed by greater miracles for the sake of such doctrines as are contrary there to and are confirmed by false Prophets by signes and wonders Now in this case our rule of tryal must not so much be the miracles considered in themselves whether real or no as the comparing them with the miracles wrought in confirmation of that doctrine which is contrary to this which these words tend to the proving of Therefore Gods people under the Law were to examine the drift and scope of the miracles and if they were intended to bring them to Idolatry what ever they were they are forbid to hearken to them as you may see most evidently Deut. 13.1 2 3. So now under the Gospel the worship of the true God through Jesus Christ and by the doctrine revealed by him is the standard whereby we ought to judge of all pretenders unto miracles so that let the miracles be what they will if they contradict that doctrine which Christ revealed to the world we are to look upon them as onely tryals of our faith in Christ to see whether we love him with our whole hearts or no and accordingly we look upon these miracles as tryals whether we will forsake the Head Christ Jesus give this worship of the Creator to the creature and the like and are sufficiently warded against the force of this assault 2 Thes 2.9 by being told that Antichrist must be ushered in with signes and lying wonders Fourthly We add that these miracles might have been done by God himself and that at these Martyrs Tombs but onely to confirm the faith they suffer'd for Now as for the testimony of Antiquity in this point Sect. 12 First Many of the places produced by him speak nothing of the Invocation of the Saints departed nor do they infer any thing but what we generally confess thus that of Saint Hillary tells us Ps 129. That our infirmity needs the intercession of Angels Answer Be it so we add that our infirmity needs the intercession of good men on earth yet we are not able to see this consequence that they must or may be invocated or prayed unto Again doth the Council of Chalcedon say let Flavian pray for us Act. 11. we say so too let all the Saints and Angels in Heaven all the men on earth pray for us we are willing to have the benefit of their intercessions or prayers for us Albeit to speak the truth this sentence looks quite anothery way the business was this there was a long contention betwixt Bassianuus and Stephanus for the Bishopprick of Ephesus Bassianus albeit not rightly ordained kept it for the space of four years and with him communicated Flavianus this was urged in the Synod by the favourers of Bassianus as an acknowledgment made by Flavian that Bassianus was lawful Bishop This Argument they thus enforce if you will not hearken to our reasons let Flavianus the Martyr entreat this of you he though dead judgeth the cause to Bassianus then after Cecropius had spoken in his behalf the Bishops and Clergy of Constantinople stand up and cry this is the truth viz. Flavianus was a favourer of Bassianus c. Flavian lives after death that is his judgement and his memory as afterward Flavian is here that is we have here his judgement for Bassianus let the Martyr entreat for us that is in this cause of Bassianus let him entreat the Council for us Haec vera genuina verborum mens est cui nisi pertinax aut imperitus refragari nemo potest saith our Crackanthorp Nor do we scruple to say with Austine Def. Eec Ang. c. 59. let Cyprian yea let Mr. C. help us as with his prayers onely let him remember that this is not vox invocantis sed optantis an indication of our willingnesse Sect. 13 not our petitions that it should be so Orat. in 40. Mart. Mr. C. p. 190. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let it here be noted that Mr. C. could scarce be ignorant of his forgery it being charged upon them by the Bishop of Ely and Forbs in those very Books which are cited by him in this Chapter Saint Basil is suborned to say whosoever is in any pressure let him fly to the assistance of these Martyrs and again whosoever is in a state of joy let him pray to them the former that he may be delivered from misery the later that he may be preserved in prosperity Answer Here we have a double corrupting of the Text an Artifice which our Author notwithstanding his solemn protestation to the contrary doth every where use Saint Basil saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he doth fly to them Mr. C. let him fly Saint Basil he doth run to them that is to their monuments Mr. C. let him pray
to them and then Saint Basil adds here it is that a woman praying for her sons is heard or wishing a safe return to her travelling Husband wherefore together with these Martyrs let us poure forth our prayers Immediately before he told the people they had often sought for one that might intercede to God for them Here saith he are forty sending up as it were one prayer and if where two or three be gathered together God is there present who doubts his presence where forty are He therefore c. From whence it is plain that here is not one Iota that bids us pray unto them but when it is said he that is under any pressure flyes unto them it is not to pray unto them but because they were esteemed which the Fathers frequently intimate to pray with them and this interpretation is evinced as by the argument that we shall be heard because we are in the presence of fourty so from that which follows that upon this account it is that the Wife comes hither and is heard And the testimony of Ruffinus will reach no higher then this doth Hist Ecc. l. 2. c. 23. and it onely shews that the Emperour came to the monuments of the Martyrs that so he might more assuredly procure the intercession of the Saints according to that vulger opinion above mentioned But Mr. C. will never be able from this intercession to conclude their Invocation unlesse he can assure us that they hear us and shew us a command to pray unto them no saith Bishop Andrews they will intercede for us on their own accord not being called upon to do so but must not be invocated by us so to do Saint Chrysostom's 66. Sect. 14 Hom. ad pop Antioch must be cited albeit he knows it to be spurious Possevin apparat in Chrys Bellar. de Scrip. Eccl. in eundem Reply to Card. Perron and his own party do confesse it and as for the same passage cited from the 26. Hom. in 2 Cor. Bishop Andrews hath told him that it smelt rank of forgery in Erasmus's nose who in his Preface before his Latine Translation of Basil and Amphilooc de Spiritu Sancio saith that there are some things there which must own him for their Parent qui dulcissimis Athanasii libellis de Spiritu Sancto suas loquaces sed Elumbes attexit noenias quique in Epistola ad Corinthios posteriore in Actis Apostolerum Chrysostomus haberi studuit And Secondly That this passage is not extant in the Latine Edition by Stelsius at Antwerp 1556. set forth by Johannes Affinius so that all Copies had it not yea further that this place is found in Garetius P. 69. de Invocatione Sanctorum cited under the name of Theodorus Daphnopatus whom thence the Reverend Bishop well concludes to have been the Author of it And yet if it had not been spurious we could have told you that it was thus to be interpreted The Emperour who is cloathed with purple makes a journey to visit these Sepulchres of Saint Peter and Saint Paul and laying aside his pomp stands 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Consid Modest p. 113. wanting the Saints to go before him in their prayers to God or intercede for him He whose Temples are encompassed with a Diadem wants for his protection even the Tent maker and Fisher-man though dead Bishop Forbs I acknowledge quarrels with this interpretation but he hath nothing at all confuting it as will appear to an unprejudiced eye Yea lastly In Saint Chrysostome's Rhetorical stile he might very well be said to desire the prayers of the Saints because he went to those places where the assistance of their prayers according to the vulgar opinion then on foot was especially to be had As to that of Saint Ambrose Sect. 15 Martyrs are to be intreated De Viduis l. 1. de off and let us not be ashamed to employ them as Intercessors for our infirmities I Answer Bishop Andrews makes it evident that this was written by him whilest a Neophite for saith he he was fain to be christened before he could be consecrated now the very next year after that he wrote his Commentaries upon Luke as Baronius proves from his own words in his eleventh Book upon the twentieth Chapter in which Commentary he cites this Book de viduis which therefore must needs be written before these Commentaries and so consequently in the first year of his Christianity yea he ingeniously confesseth that he beganâ— to teach before he had learnt and Saint Austine confirmes it saying Instruct. Hist Ambr. Vix Christanus de rebus Ecclesiae scribit thus he Now here we must be sent to Vossius and Forbs who considereth some other passages but gently slideth over this convincing evidence without the least notice taken of it but because he sends us to Forbs let him hear him giving us this rule l. 7. c. 5. When one and the same Writer seems to speak contradictions let it be considered where he professedly states the Question and confirmes his sentence by the suffrage of Scripture and Reason confuting disertly the opposite opinion and where he speaks of the same thing as it were aliud agens by the by without such confirmation from the testimonies of Scripture and Reason and confutation of the opposite opinion such things as do not well consist therewith and in this case that which he taught in the former manner must be esteemed to be his Doctrine l. 3. c. 12. C. 1. Thus saith he â—aint Ambrose in his Book De Spiritu Sancto and De Fide teacheth that God alone is to be worshipped not the Virgin Mary or any creature This he confirmes ex professo by the testimonies of Scripture and manifest Reason and yet in his Dook De Viduis he delivers a Doctrine which is plainly otherwise but then it is not operose confirmata industriously confirmed and therefore we must estimate Saint Ambrose his judgement from the former places To which we add that as he grew elder he grew wiser Ambros de obitu Theod. for afterwards he had learnt to say Thou O Lord onely art to be invocated Secondly This may be interpreted to be the obsecration of deeds rather then words for there he teacheth the Widow pleading she was weak and without help to make the Apostles her friends and neighbours to procure her help as Peter and Andrew entreated our Saviour to cure Peters wives Mother Now the way saith he to make them so to her was to draw near to them in the fellowship or likeness of piety and doing good for it was not the relation of blood but the kinred of Virtue that makes the Martyrs our Friends and neighbours Sect. 16 To that place of Austine Ad viginti Martyres c. ut vestiretur oravit Further let lt be considered that here we have no better president then a Taylor and that so simple as to bargain with the Martyrs
the Priest as by the people as well at Mass as at Mattins as well at the Altar as in the body of the Church Indeed you tell us it might have been lawful if the Church had so ordered it But do you think S. Austin would have said so too is it not his business to distinguish betwixt the honour which was given to the Martyrs by the Christians and by the Gentiles to the Daemons and having said that they erect no Altars to them as the heathens did for sacrifice but sacrificed to God alone he adds that at this sacrifice the Martyrs were not invocated as the Gentile Daemons were but only nominated now what is it to his purpose to tell us they are not invocated at the Altar if they were invocated elsewhere well then your last refuge is the invocation of Latria which Saint Austin must be thought to speak of C. 21. because he tells us in his twentieth Book against Faustus Manichaeus that they do not worship the Saints with Latria Ans But who told you that invocation of them was not esteemed Latria by him why else doth he say that the Saints were not worshipped sicut dii as the Heathen Gods and then after this non invocantur Secondly Doth he not say non invocantur sed nominantur now I hope your invocation is not nomination and therefore 't is somewhat above it and consequently somewhat comprehended in that which he opposeth to it so likewise in the place you cite he tells us they afforded that cultum dilectionis and such as was given to holy men that were now alive yea saith he we sound forth their praises but we do not worship them with Latria where albeit Faustus there objected that they worshipped them votis similibus with such prayers or vows as the heathens worshipped their Idols with yet could he not get Saint Austin to acknowledge they prayed unto them at all but having told us that they praised them there he stops and riseth no higher albeit the objection and the business in hand which was to shew what honour the Saints did receive from them and what they thought not fit to yield unto them did require it Thus have we returned an Answer to our Authours pleas from Scripture and Antiquity our next work should be to confront to them those many arguments by which our Champions do confute this superstition and plead the cause of Christ against them but I shall wave it at present and content my self with evidencing the judgement and practice of Antiquity to run contrary to them And 1. Sect. 19 It is a strong presumption that this Invocation of Saints is not so pious so profitable as the Trent Council doth imagine in that we find neither precept nor example of all the Fathers of the Old Testament whereby this kind of service to them may be warranted To this the usual Answer of the Papist is Vid. Bellar. praefat in controvers de Eccles triumph ante that the spirits of the Patriarchs and Prophets and other Worthies who flourished under the Old Testament were kept in limbus patrum a place nigh to hell appointed for these Fathers to be retained in till the descent of our Blessed Saviour thither But this Answer is evidently grounded upon a false foundation it being clear from Scripture that they were not included in such a place but did enjoy the Kingdome of Heaven Luk. 13 28. For Abrahams bosom is clearly propounded as the place into which the Blessed Angels before the death of Christ convey'd the souls of those which departed in the favour of God Luke 16. and that this bosome is virtually and in terms equivalent Cap. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Shall ly down promised to those which afterwards should believe is sufficiently evinced from that place of Saint Matthew many shall come from the East and West and shall sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven for the joys of heaven are likened to a feast in which according to the custom then in use they lay down with the head of one towards the breast of another who is therefore said to lie in his bosom and therefore when 't is said of the faithful that believed after Christs death 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they shall lie down at this feast with Abraham 't is as much as if he had said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Euthymius paraphraseth it that is they shall lie down in the bosom of Abraham adde to this that when God translated Enoch and Elias was carried up in a Chariot to heaven they could not be conveyed to this limbus patrum a place so nigh to the receptacle of the damned spirits yea 't is not likely they were conveyed to a place where they had no vision of God and yet there is no reason to think Abraham David Daniel and other of the Prophets should be in a worse place or condition then Enoch or Elias seeing they had as large a testimony of their pleasing God as they We go farther yet and urge against them Sect. 20 that in the New Testament it self we can descry no footsteps of this Invocation more then we did in the Scriptures of the Old Saint Paul doth frequently sollicite his brethren to pray for him and for the furtherance of the Gospel P. 1. but not one petition can we find directed to an Angel or Saint departed here presently they flie to their traditions but in vain for if any such tradition as this were at first delivered we demand how it should come pass that for the space of 360 years together after the birth of our Saviour we can find no mention in the Fathers of any such thing but on the contrary when urged by heathens that it was their duty to pray to Saints and Angels they stoutly denied it and cried away with such evil counsel Irenaeus in his first book speaks of Hereticks that had strange phansies concerning Angels attributing much unto them in relation to which he denies that the Church did any thing l. 2. c. 57. viz. in reference to miraculous cures by invocation of Angels or by incantations but purely and manifestly directing prayers to the Lord which made all and invocating the name of our Lord Jesus Christ now whereas Fevardentius tells us that he speaks of the invocation of evil spirits we ask him why then is it that no limitation is given but all Angellical invocation absolutely denied why is it that he binds up the prayers of the Church to God the Father through the name of his Son Lib. de Orat. cap. 12. Tertullian saith we deservedly upbraid those prayers with vanity which are made without the Authority of any precept of our Lord or his Apostles for such are rather to be esteemed superstitious then Religious shew us then a precept of our Lord or his Apostles and we will cease to impeach your practice as superstitious vanity but seeing that is impossible