haueing bene primarily instituted to signifie the voyce which the Citizens of Rome gaue in the election of any Magistrate or in the resolution of any other importÌ„at affaire of the CoÌ„mon wealth put to the peoples deliberation Whence we are wont to say that Bishops onely haue right of suffrage or deliberatiue voyces in the Councells c. Hence such towards the Emperours as had the credit to giue their voyces aduice or opinion touching the capacities or incapacities of persons pretending preferments were called suffragators that is informers helping to supplie the Emperours want of knowledge of the merits or demerits of particular persons ayming to beare office in the common wealth And such suffragators saith the Authour and we with him God needs none sith as is said in the same place For be knowes all mens merits from whom nothing lyes hid and so needs not any to informe him of the worth and abilities of his subiects as the Emperours needed the aduice of the Tribunes or Gouernours of Prouinces of the sufficiencie of persons within their precincts and was inabled therby to discerne who were fitt to be imployed Now that it is not a meere imagination of myne for the clearing of this place but a certaine trueth that it was conceaued by some heathen Philosophers that the greater God or Gods stood in need of aduice from the lesser Gods Angels or deuils let S. Aug. speake Cittie of God l 8. c. 28. Some heatheÌ„ Philosophers thinke saith he that the celestiall Gods who haue care of humane affaires would not know what men doe if the deuils of the ayre did not announce it to them because heauen is farre distant from earth and suspended on high In his bookâ— de Mundo wheras the ayre is contiguous or toucheth to Heauen and earth And Aristotle seemes to say no lesse where he compares God with the great king of Persia c. S. Chrysostome Hom. de Profectu Euang. Cos. We are more preualent with God when we pray to him by our selues then when others pray for vs You haue no need of a Patron with God Car. Here are two things affirmed and both true being well vnderstood and make nothing at all against vs The first that a man is more preualent praying alone for him selfe theÌ„ wheÌ„ others pray for him That is it is a surer way to be heard for a man to pray for himselfe then onely to depend vpon another mans prayers he not praying himselfe The second That a man hath no need of a Patron with â—â—od Absolutely as that God would not heare him without a Patron I grantâ—â— And what is this against a Catholike And thus or to this effect must as well the D. as we interpret him vnlesse we will haue him to make head against common sense S. Paul and himselfe where he speakes and that more plainly of the intercession of Saints for here indeed despeakes not of it at all vnlesse in coÌ„sequence and therfore this is not the fittest place to decide a controuersie That he Should oppose common sense it is euident because at least if anothers prayers helpe not no reason can be suggested why they should hurt and therfore we should be more preualent praying alone That he should contradict S. Pauls counsell is no lesse manifest who in the 5. Thess 25. verse saith Brethren pray for vs. Heb. 13. ver 18. Pray for vs and the 5. of S. lames ver 16. Pray for one another that you may be saued And that he should quarrell with himselfe is as cleare if we reade what he saith in his 28. Homilie to the people of Antioche touching the intercession of the Angels in the tyme of the Sacrifice The Angels doe then in lieu of olie branches propose the verie body of our Lord pray for mankind as though they should say We pray ô Lord for these whom thou hast loued in so large measure that for their loue thou incurredst death and gauest vp thy spirit vpon the Crosse we beseech thee for these for whom thou freely gauest thy blood we pray to thee for those for whom thou diddest Sacrifice this body Giue therfore this flood of eloquence leaue to speake for himselfe and he will sweepe away all hints for cauills to catch hold on If we be negligent saith he and slouthfull we cannot be saued euen by the merits of others c. But these things we say not to deny that one may pray to the Saints for sinners In Math. Hom. 8. but least we our selues might fall into slouth and idlenes and leaue the care of our owne affaires to others while we our selues sleepe Againe The prayers and supplications of Saints haue force for vs in Matt. Hom 5. yea and that most great Marry then it is when we our selues too demande the same thing by Pennance Againe Wherfore let vs frequently visite them le ts touch their shrines and with great faith embrace their reliques to the end we may receiue some benediction for as soldiers shew the wounds which they receiue in battell to the king speaking with confidence so these bearing their heads which were cutt of Hom. 40. to the people of Antioche and proposing them are able to obtayne of the king of heauen what ere they please S Epiphanius haer 79. Cos. LEt no body worship the Virgin Marie nor any man or woman besides To God is this holines or religion due Car. Let no man worship her as à Goddesse by giuing her soueraigne honour testified by sacrifice I grant it Let no man worship her by ascribing to her inferiour honour I deny it And that both the parts of this distinction is saint Epiphan not my ne and consequently that it was his true sense is euident to any who will please to looke vpon the place For first the title is against the Collyridians womeÌ„ who sacrificed a loafe a bunne or cake whence they take their name to our B. Lady and the whole discourse is spent vpon the same subiect all through distinguishing betwixt soueraigne worship expressed by adoration and subordinate worship by the word honour As let Marie be honored but let the Father Sonne and holy Gh. be adored And againe Though Marie be most beautifull holy and bonored yet not so farre forth as to be adored In fine he concludes in these words Let Marie be honoured Let Christ be adored fiat fiat Bede in Prouerb Cos. We ought to inuocate that is by prayer to call vpon none for helpe but God alone Car. The answer is easie adde onely two litle monosyllables which you haue left out to witt in nos into vs and leaue out as many for helpe and read We ought to inuocate that is by prayer to call into vs none but God alone and you will perceiue the difficultie insensibly and without force vanished away For the rest if you desire indeed to know S. Bedes sense vpon this subiect be pleased to read him vpoÌ„ the 4th of S.
clearing of the place and discouering Theodorets sense in point of honoring and praying to the Saints or Angels let himselfe be heard speake where he discourses more plainely and fully vpon that subiect In his Epitome of Diuine dccrees De Angelis c. 7. THe diuine Daniel the Prophcte did also affirme that some to witt Angels wherof he spake were Princes of Nations c. And added withall that no other did helpe him while he made intercession to God for the libertie of the I ewes then Michael their Prince The 8. booke of the cure of the Grecian affections THe generous soules of the tryumphant Martyrs walke now in heauen and are present amidst the Quires of Angells Marrie euen their bodyes are not contaynd in their particular monumets The ancient deuotion to reliques which is neuer heard of amingst the protestants but the citties and villages hauing deuided them amongst them instile thē conseruers of their soules and Phisitians of their bodyes and worship them as Presidents and keepers of their citties and making vse of their intercession to God they obtayne diuine gifts through their fauour Their intercession made vse of Their bodyes being cuttin pieces the vertue of them remaynes entire and vndeuided And those so litle and diminutiue reliques haue an equall vertue to the whole Martyr Fauours and cures obtayned at and by meanes of their reliques while vndeuided and vncutt into pieces For the vertue present distributes fauours and proportions its liberalitie to the faith of the suppliants And euen these things moue not you to prayse their God but you deride and scoffe at the honour which all euery where exhibite to them and repute it an abominable crime to draw neere their graues In the same booke about à leafe after VVhy are you offended with vs who make not Gods Their honour but honour Martyrs as witnesses of God and most louing seruants Againe in the same booke BVt the faire and famours Temples of the victorious Martyrs appeare illustrious for greatnes Temples built to God in their name and honor excellencie and all kind of ornament and streames out the splendour of their beauteousnes on euery side Nor doe we frequent them once twice of fiue times a yeare but we celebrate frequent assemblies nay oftē we sing prayses euerie day to their Lord and Master And those that are in good health begge the conseruation of it such as are afflicted with any disease intreate to be freed of it They also demand children who want them and such as are sterill desire to become mothers c. Trauellers sue to them to be companions and guides of their iourney who returne safe render thankes Prayer to them Nor doe they goe to them as to Gods but pray to them as heauenly men and deseech them to be pleased to be intercessours for them Now that such as faithfully demand obtayne their desires their Donaries speaking their cures openly publish For some hang vp resmblances of eyes others of hands and feete made of siluer or gold To witt their Master accepts of small things and of litle value measuring the gift by the abilitie of the giuer And a litle after NAy further they are carefull to call their newborne children by their names procureing to them therby securitie and safe custodie Is it possible that this Authours testimonie should euer be vsed against honour and prayer to Saints Did euer or could euer any Catholike speake more aduantagiously in his owne behalfe Could the Authour euer more clearely expresse himselfe a Catholike or euen more fully and freely and euidently deliuer Catholike dutie and practise in this behalfe Which he himselfe also obserued in his Religious Historie c. 3. of Macarius his life saying in the end of the same I making an end of this narration pray and beseech that by the intercession of all these of whom he spake I may obtayne the diuine assistance And c. 18 of Eusebius And I pray that I may obtayne that intercession which hitherto I haue enioyed while he was yet aliue c. And finally in c. 27. of Baradatus Grant that by the assistance of their prayers I may approach to that Mountaine c. COSENS Saint Augustin in his 10. booke of Confessions chap. 42. hath these words Whom should I find that might reconcile me to thee ô my God Must I goe to the Angels With what prayer with what Sacrament should I doe it I heare that many desireing to returne to thee and being not able to doe it by themselues haue made tryall of this way and haue bene very deseruedly deluded by it CARRE There is some thing in that Passage which is most materiall omitted some what also false translated Take therfore the passage word for word as it lyes Whom could I find that might reconcile me to thee Was I to goe to Angels With what prayer with what Sacramēts was I to doe it is not in the text howbeit that much imports not Many desiring to returne to thee and not being able to doe it by themselues as I heare haue tryed these things haec can not at least be referred to the Angels alone and haue fallen into a desire of curious visions this clause of curious visions is quite left out though most materiall and were held worthy of illusions or to be illuded by it these words byit are added to the text because they may seeme to referre to the going to the Angels as though that were the cause of their being illuded which serues the better to patch up the Doctors sense wheras indeed their being illuded might either be imputed to their going to the Angels Prayer Sacramēts or els more immediately and apparently to the desire they had to haue curious visions which can neuer be deuoyd of fault But if he will needs haue all the mischeife be putt vpon their going to the Angels Let him please either to looke vpon the marginall notes in what impression so euer of his whole workes where he will find remedia vitiorum à Daemonibus the remedies of vices from the Diuells or els take the paynes to read on fiue or sixe lynes further and he will discouer what Angels S. Augustine spake of who saith For they being highminded sought thee in the pride of their learning and did rather exalt their hearts then kenecke their breasts And so they drew the Princes of the ayre towards them who conspired and were companions with them in the same pride and by them they were deluded through magicall powers c. For the diuell was transforming himselfe into an Angell of light Behold how and by what Angell they were deluded and consequently how this apparent difficultie falls all in pieces If any desire a clearer prospect vpō S. Augustins mynde herein by knowing of whom he had heard this opinion of being purged and reconciled to God by the mediation of the Angels c. Les him take the paynes to read what the same Saint saith in
his 9. and tenth booke of the citie of God all ouer and he will plainely discouer to what he there alludes to witt to the opinions of Trismegistus the Platoniques and after them it may be to the Symoneans who were sicke of the same disease as saith Tertullian in these tearmes The discipline of the Magicalart of the Symoneans ser uing the Angels is counted among the idolatries Who held that men were to goe to the supreme God by the lesser Gods or Angells hauing first vsed holy purifications or purgations As l. 10. c. 9. speaking against Porphyrius a Platonique For Forphyrius doth promise a certaine purgation as it were of the soule by him called Theurgia yet he doth it with a certaine hesitation and as one would say with a blushing kind of disputation and denyes that any by this Art is helped to returne to God so that one may discouer him wauering betwixt the vice of sacrilegious curiositie and a Philosophicall profession now putting one opinton now another For now he warnes vs to beware of this Art as deceiptfull and dangerous in the deed doing and prohibited by the law And soone after as giuing way to such as prayse it affirmes it conducible to the cleansing a part of the soule not the intellectuall part wherein the Truth of intelligible things which haue no corporeall similitudes are discouered but the spirituall part capable of corporeall images or resemblances for this part saith he is adapted and fitted by certaine Theurgicall consecrations which are called Teletae to the receipt of spirits and Angels wherby to see the Gods And ibid. ch 16. wheras therfore some Angells doe excite men to worship this one God and some againe excite them by working wonders to honor themselues with soueraigne worship Latriâ and so too that those forbid that these should be worshipped let the Platonique say to whom we should rather giue credit yea let what Philosophers soeuer say let the Theurgi or rather the Perurgi c. Nay lastly let euen men say if there be yet any sense of humane nature wherby they are created reasonable creatures in any measure left in them whether we ought rather to sacrifice to those Gods or Angells who command that sacrifice should be offered to them or to him alone to whom these command it who forbidd that sacrifice be offered either to themselues or to those others The 9. booke of the Cittie LEast any should East any should thinks he ought to follow them as good Daemones Angells by whose meanes or mediation as it were while he doth desire and studiously en deauour to be reconciled to the Gods which euery one beleeuees to be good c. he may wander far from the true God But that which I most admire is that you Mr. Cos. whom reports haue alwayes deliuered to vs for a learned moderate and ingenuous man should picke out such abstruse passages which being well looked into make nothing at all for you and endeauour amidst such darknes to wrest your will from a Father by forceing him to speake against what he hath dogmatically and clearly deliuered in so many other passages which you might with as much facilitie haue met withall as In the II. booke of the Cittie of God Chap. 31. BVt the holy Angels after whose societie and companie we grone in this most perilous pilgrimage as they haue an eternall permanencic so haue they a facilitie in knowing We are aâ—â—â—sted by them and a felicitie in reposing for without difficultie they helpe vs because they labour not in their spirituall pure and free motions Epistle 121. chap. 9. OR happily let them to witt our prayers be knowen to the Angels who are with God that in what manner they are to offer them to God and what counsell they are to vse therm Tâ—â—y offer our praters to God And what by his comand to witt Gods they know ought to be fulfilled c. they may bring vnto vs either openly or couertly for the Angel said to the man Tobic And now when thou and Sara didst pray I offered your prayer in the sight of Gods claritie In his 6. Chap. of his Annotations vpon Iob. HAue mercy on me haue mercy on me o friends heseemes to Welairfully pray to them bescech the Angels that they would become intercessours for him or at least the Saints that they would pray for a penitent The Cittie of God the 22. booke Chap. 8. I Had begun to dispute more diligently of the whole cause and behold while I disputed other voyces of new gratulations are heard froÌ„ the Martyrs shrine The publique practise of praying at the shrines of the Martyrs My Auditours turned and began to run that way for she to witt Palladia Pauls Sister as soone as the was downe the staires where she had stood she was gone to pray to the holy Martyr ad sanctum Martyrem orare to pray to the Martyr or at the shrine of the Martyr to witt S. Stephen as is plaine by these words following What was in the hearts of those that exulted but the faith of Christ for which Stephens bloud was powred out who as soone as she had touched the rayles falling as it were downe into a sleepe she rose sound A mirucle Wrought in S Augugustins sight While therfore we made inquirie what had befallen which had caused that ioyfull noyse they brought her sound into that part of the Church where we were froÌ„ the place where the Martyr lay Then both men and women made so great an admiting noyse that the bruite continuing with teares seemed to find no periode She was lead to that place where a litle before she had stood trembling c. The 7. booke and 1. Chap. against the Donatists LEt him S. Syprian of whom he spake helpe vs by his prayers in the mortalitie of this flesh A saint prayd to in particular as persons labouring in a darke cloude c. Vpon Psalme the 83. ALl the Martyrs which are with him Christ doe intercede for vs The Saints interceede for vs. Their intercessions are not ended saue with the end of our sobbings The 1. Sermon on the feast of S. Stephen SAint Stephen was heard that by his prayers Sauls sinne might be blotted out We counselled to pray to S. Stephen Let vs therfore coÌ„mend our selues to his prayers For much more is he now heard for those that pray rightly to him In Psalm 88. Sermon 2. LEt vs celebrate the birthdayes of Saints with sobrietie Their birth-dayes celebrated that we may imitate them who went before vs and let them reioyce in vs who pray for vs that the blessing of our Lord may for euer remayne with vs. In the Citie of God 10. booke the 12. chap. When his Angels doe heare The Angels heare vs. he God doth heare in them as in his true temple not made by the hands of men Against Faustus the 20. booke the Chap. 21. CHristiaÌ„ people doe
celebrate together the Memories of Martyrs with a religious solemnitie Religious worship both to excite imitation Sacrifice to be made fellow partners in their merits and to be helped by their prayers yet so as we offer sacrifice to none of the Martyrs but to the verie God of Martyrs Altars though we erect Altars in the Memories of Martyrs c. If then saint Augustins mynde be made good by so many and so manifest places To what end should the D. come yet coldly dropping another seeming place out of the said saint or to what purpose should I answere it Howbeit lets yet heare him speake for euery ones full satisfaction S. Augustin l. 2. contra Ep. Parm. chap. 8. Cos. IF the Apostle had said you shall haue one for your Aduocate and I will pray the Father for your sinnes what good or faithfull Christian would haue endured it or accompted him one of Christs Apostles and not rather haue looked vpon him as vpon an Antichrist Car. I answer first that by Aduocate which is indeed in the text Mediatour the D. will either haue S. Augustine after the Apostle to meane the Principall and immediate Mediatour Mediatour which if the Apostle had assumed to himselfe he had iustly bene looked vpon by all good Christians not as an Apostle of Christ but rather as an Antichrist or els the mediate lesse principall and impropre Mediatour which he must meane if he would haue the place to make any thing against a Catholike and to his purpose And such certainly the Apostle both might be and was and yet is farre from incurring the censure of an Antichrist sith S. Iohn was doubtlessy a Bishop and euery Bishop if we beleeue S. Paul Heb. 5. is taken from among men and is ordayned for men in things pertayning to God that he may offer both guifts and sacrifices for sinne which is to be some kind of Mediatour or Aduocate representing their miseries pleading their cause and mediating their reconcilement to God by Christ the onely properly true Mediatour of Redemptiō In this kind of Mediation are the Priests employed saith Ioel c. 2. Betweene the porch and the Altar shall the Priests the Ministers of our Lord weepe and shall say spare ô Lord spare thy people and giue not thyne inheritance into reproach that the heathens should rule ouer them and thus finally concludes S. Aug. in this place doe all Christiā men commend themselues mutually to one anothers prayers So farre is he from speaking against mediating in this second sense or consequently from apprehending that derogatorie to Christ our prime Mediatour I answere secondly that here againe is a whole clause left out whence the clearing of the difficultie was to be demanded to witt As Parmenianus in a certaine place put a Bishop Mediatour betwixt the people and God And how did Parmenianus put Bishops Mediatours c marrie as purifiers and iustifiers of men by their owne vertue and iustice since they the Donatists allowed vertue and effect to the Sacraments and Sacrifice onely according to the qualitie of the Minister or offerer which was indeed to assume to themselues the proper Mediation of Christ Iesus who onely of himselfe is able to appease Gods wrath against sinne as being our principal immediate primarie Mediatour and indeed our onely Mediatour of Redemption who by the right of his owne merits obtaynes grace forvs the others onely by him and by his merits Such a Mediatour it is manifest S. Aug. spake of in this place and such we admitt none but Christ alone who spake against the pride of the Donatists which forsoothe would haue no spott or vice to be amongst them or their fellowes as saith S. Augustine in the chap. immediately before which was a prerogatiue due to Christ alone who was that one and true Mediatour for whō none prayed he prayed for all as saith the said St. in this 8. chap. In fine one of S. Augustines principall designes in this place was to proue against the Donatists that they iniustly separated themselues from the Catholike Church vpon pretence of the wickednes of the Bishops and priests in the Church for dato that it were so indeed yet were that no iust cause of a diuision or schisme since be the Bishops and priests what they will we ought alwayes to be secure of one Mediatour Iesus Christ the iust whom we haue an Aduocate with the Father and he is the propitiation for our sinnes Hence I beleeue the weakest may obserue that it is not fairely done of Mr. Cos. to make vse of the mistaken sense of an obscure passage in an Authour to stagger the vnlettered who are not able to examine him while being examined he beares no shew of difficultie along with him COSENS S Irenaeus against Heresies 2. booke chap. 57. THe Church Catholike doth not inuocate Angels bnt purely calleth vpon God and Christ CARRE Still something is left out most important to the clearing of the difficultie S. Irenaeus his words are these Neither doth it to witt the vniuersall Church doc any thing by Angelicall inuocations nor by incantations nor by any other wicked curiositie these words by incantations nor by any other wicked curiositie are omitted but cleanely purely and manifestly directing prayers to God c. Now what doe these words incantations and wicked curiosities lead vs to but the old heretiques to witt the Symonians the Marcites Meandriās and Carpocratiās against whom he had spoken shewing here that the Catholike Church in working her true miracles did not vse their proceeding in working false ones which they did by the inuocation and superstitious naming of Angels to whom they ascribed the creation of the world by incantations and spells whereby they deluded many especially poore women robbing them of fortunes and honour with the exercise of innumerable villanies as is to be seene in the 9. 20. 22. and and 24. chapters of his first booke but by fasting and prayer performed chastely purely openly and without hope of lucre His words are That vniuerfall Church which is in euery place demanding by fasting and much prayer the spirit os life returned to the dead man who was giuen to the Saints prayers What is here yet I pray against the inuocation of Saints Cos. Origene against Celsus l. 5. ALl prayers are to be sent and offered vp vnto God by our Angel and high Priest who is the Prince and Lord of all Angels Nor will our Religion permitt vs to supplicate or pray to any other whom so euer Car. Answer First your choyce herein is not verie happie if you should make him stand vp alone against all antiquitie ingenous men would not esteeme his word were sufficient caution after his so many errours yea euen in this place where he destroyes Christs Diuinitie making him inferiour to his heauenly Father Howbeit if you admitt his authoritie vpon this matter so doe I and thus I produce him speaking of the Angels in the same place O
Luke where writing vpon these words It is written thou shalt adore the Lord thy God and serue him alone he speakes both exactly and amply with all some saith he peraduenture will demand how these two be reconciled together to wit what is here commanded to sErue God alone and that of the Apostle scrue one another mutually out of Charitie But this findes an easie solution out of the originall Greeke text whence the Scripture was translated where the seruice is named in two different manners bearing withall a diuers signification for it is called both Latria and Dulia true it is that Dulia is taken for a common seruice that is à seruice which of its owne nature is indifferently exhibited to God or any other thing whatsoeuer Whence also we haue the word seruant which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Latria contrarily is taken for that seruice alone which belongs to the worship of the Diuinitie which is communicable to noe creature at all Wherevpon they are pronounced Idolaters who offer vowes prayers and Sacrifices to Idols which they owe to God alone Wherfore we are commanded to serue one another through Charitie which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And we are commanded to serue God alone with that worship which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Againe Let vs alwayes serue such a Queene who forsakes them not who hope in her Iesus Christ being pleased in and hearing the prayers of the Saints doth much more heare his mother when she prayes for sinners In one of his Sermons of our Blessed Lady in his 7. Tome Againe Let vs demand for vs the frequent intercessions of the Saints be they Angels or men to the mercy of our gracious Creatour Vpon the Cant. l. 4. c. 24. Againe Let vs pray to all the Saints to make intercession for vs to God In a Serm. vpon the great Litanics Tome 7. Hauing now giuen full satisfaction as I presume to any impartiall reader not onely that all these specious passages alleadged out of the Holy Fathers against vs conclude nothing at all many of them being manifestly corrupted others forced others mistaken but contrarily hauing euidently made good by positiue and plaine allegations out of the said Fathers others I would not in this short discourse though with great facilitie I could haue alleadged that they are wholly for vs I will passe on to another of his assertions spoken and put downe vnder his hand with an admirable confidence against Purgatorie in these tearmes OF PVRGATORIE Cos. THAT none of the Greeke Fathers holds Purgatorie in the sense in which the Councell of Trent holds it Car. I beleeue Mr. Cosens were you obliged to make alwayes good the propositions which vpon all occasions you aduance with such an absolute boldnes and in such a generalitie as this is now asseuered you would fall as farre short in your proofes as you ouerlash in your positions The Councell of Trent consisted if we should euen abstract from the assistance of the holy Ghost which I dare not thinke was wanting not haue I any reason for it no more then for the first foure Generall Councels that assistance being promised to the Church in generall in what tyme or place soeuer that the spirit of trueths hall be with you for euer in aeternum S. Iohn cap 14. And shall teach you all trueth ibid cap. 16. of such a companie of learned and pious Prelates and other Ecclesiasticall persons as it ought in common sense to be exeÌ„pted from the rash censure of euery single opponeÌ„t whilest it is generally admitted in all matters of Faith by all the symbolicall Church spread ouer all the world and in communitie with the Church of Rome and was reiected by none saue onely by a diminutiue part of the least part of the world Europe which actually then made a schisme from it which was then confessedly the onely visible Church of Christ Howbeit for euery ones satisfaction we will heare what the greeke Fathers haue saâ—d vpon this subiect S. Denis And then the diuine Prelate drawing neere Ecclesiast Hier. c. 7. he finisheth his holy prayer ouer the deceased and after the prayer the same Prelate salutes him and withall all the assistants euery one in their ranke This prayer petitions the diuine mercy to pardon all the sinnes which the deceased had committed through humane frailitie and that he would place them in light and in the Land of the liuing and in the bosome of Abraham Isaac and Iacob in the place where forrow sadnes and wailling is banished c. Origene l. 8. in Rom. 11. He alone to whom the Father hath giuen all iudgement is able to know for how long a tyme or what ages sinners may be tormented in this purgation which is made by fire Euseb Alexandrinus Memento c. Hem. de Dominica Be myndfull in the oblation or as we now say put them into your Memento of your parents and brethren who are already departed this life for by this meanes you procure great rest to the dead Accomplish thy prayers S. Zenon Serm. de Resur extat to 2. â— b. PP By her he speakes of a widow lamenting the death of her husband profane wailing she interrupted the diuine solemnities wherin the Priests were accustomed to commend the deceased to God Eusebius Caesariensis In vita Constan l. 4 cap. 71. A great multitude of people together with the Priests not without teares and truly with great expression of sorrow powred out prayers to God for the soule of the Emperour c. Athanasius Quaestione 34. Why then doe euen the soules of sinners perceiue any benefit when assemblies are made for them exhibitions of good workes and oblations If they did participate no benefit therby there would be no commemoration made in the care taken and in their funeralls But as the vine doth flourish abroad in the fields and the wine shut vp in the vessell resents its odour and flourisheth together with it so we vnderstand that the soules of sinners doe partake some benefit by the vnbloudie sacrifice and good workes done for them as our God alone doth order and command who hath power ouer the liuing and the dead OBSERVATION Behold the soules of sinners haue benefit by the vnbloudie sacrifice and good workes done for them Cyrillus Hierâ—â—ol Catechesi Myâ—ag 5 And then as soone as that spirituall sacrifice and that vnbloudie worship ouer that propiiiatorie hostâ— propitiationis Hostia is performed we beseech God for the coÌ„mon peace of the Churches for the quiet of the world forkings for soldiers And then we make mention of such as dyed before vs. First of the Patriarches Prophets Apostles Martyrs that God by their prayers would receiue ours Then for the deceased Fathers and Bishops Finally we pray for all those who dyed from amongst vs beleeuing that it is a great helpe to their soules for whom the obsecration or prayer of that holy and
Angels or Saints at all and therefore not to the present purpose as 1. That of S. Austine 2. That of Tertullian twice 3. That of S Chrysostome Now that I may not onely say this but make it appeare in effect I will obserue this order fairely to put downe your seuerall obiections seuerally and in as many and the same words without changing or omitting one syllable produced by you and attend each of them in particular with my answers apprehending that the most perspicuous and satisfactorie way to the readers or hearers and least subiect to be misconstrued or misconceaued Of the worshipping and praying to Angels COSENS THat this was forbidden by S. Paul and condemned by the ancient fathers of the Church is manifest both from the testimonie of Theodoret and others and from the Canon made against it in the Councell of Laodicea CARRE That the worship and prayer to Angells as it is practised in the Catholike Apostolike and Romane Church which is the thing in question is not forbidden by S. Paul or condemned by the ancient Fathers c. which you pretend to make good by sundrie passages of the Fathers here puttdowne I hope to make as cleare as the said Fathers owne plaine words can make it COS. Let no man seduce you through humilitie and the Religion or worshiping of Angels They that maintaynd the law induced the Colossians to worship Angels telling them that the law was giuen by Angells and therfore that they ought to be worshipped And this vice continued a great while among them both in Phrygia and Pisidia Therfore the Councell which was gathered together at Laodicea which is the Metropolitan Citie of Phrygia forbad it by a law and commanded them that they should not pray to Angels To this day are to be seene the oratories which they and their neighbours made to the Angel S. Michael And this they did praying to them out of humilitie saying that the God of Heauen and earth was inuisible and incomprehensible to whom they could not come and that therfore it behoued them to procure his fauour by the Angels And this was it which S. Paul meant when he said Let no man seduce you through humilitie and the worshipping of Angels CAR. We answere that that passage of S. Paul is to be vnderstood of such as are so seduced as that they giue away to creatures soueraigne worship which is due to God alone And in this sense we with S. Paul crye out Let no man seduce you c. And that this is not said gratis but is indeed the true sense of S. Paul appeares first out of S. Chrysostome vpon the same place saying There are some who say that we are to be brought to God by Angels and not by Christ 2. by the cōtext or sequell of words in the verie next verse and not holding the head to witt Christ but in lieu of Christ substituting Angels as saith the said Theodoret and S. Anselme 3. by the Councell of Laodicea it selfe to which wee haue Theodoret wholly alluding and referring to it and therfore is to be interpreted by it Let vs heare then what it saith and consequently what Theodoret would and must say COS. The words of the Canon made by the Councell of Laodicea about 1300. yeares since be these CAnon 35. That Christians ought not to forsake the Church of God and goe to the Angels makeing priuate meetings for that purpose which are wholly forbidden therfore if any one shall be found to follow this secret and priuate Idolatrie let him be accursed Car. Here is somewhat not rightly putt downe some thing quite left out Take it as followes That we ought not to relinquish the Church of God and depart thence and nominate Angels and to make assemblies which are knowen to be forbidden Therfore if any shall be found to follow this secret Idolatrie Let him be accursed Because he forsooke our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God and abandoned himselfe to Idolatrie or went to Idols These words because he forsooke our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God and abandoned himselfe to Idolatrie or went to Idols are quite left out being yet the most important to decide the difficultie betwixt vs though immediatly following and clearely deliuering the reason or cause of what preceeded Is there now any need of further answere Doe Catholikes hold that they ought to forsake the Church of God and to depart thence to name call or if you please inuocate Angells Doe they to that purpose make any secret assemblies which are publikely forbidden Doe they finally forsaking our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God giue themselues ouer to Idolatrie and thereby draw the curse vpō their shoulders it being imposed for no other cause as the Councell it selse expounds it selfe designing the particular reason of the curse saying Because he forsooke our Lord c. why did you then deale so spareingly with your friends as by leauing out what was most important to leaue them with some apparent doubt quaking vnder the feare of a curse if they should worship or pray to a Saint wheras the words being produced made most cleare that there was indeed no cause of feare at all In a word that this Canon cannot be meant of the Religious worship which the Catholike Church payes to Angels and Saints is further manifest both by the Canon 34. immediatly preceeding in the same Councell where the Religious worship of a true Martir is approued in these words A Christian ought not to forsake the Martirs of Christ and goe to false Martirs And also by the 51. art following We ought not to celebrate the birthdayes of Martirs in Lent but onely to make a memorie which we call now a cōmemoration of them vpon saturday and sonday Iudge then whether it were likely that the holy Councel would with one breath both establish and destroye the worship due to Angels or Saints the difficultie equally vrgeing against them both Againe the phrase of the Councell being nominare Angelos I would fayne know by what rule it is rather englished to goe to the Angells then as the words vsually signifie by the cōmon consent of men to nominate or name the Angels which is wont to be done in coniurations and enchantements c. which sense the canon 36. immediately following seemes particularly to fauour and cōfirme as rendring the reason of the precedent canon because saith it the ministers of the Altar or Clarkes ought not to be Magicians or enchanters or to make certaine scrolls Phylacteria wherin things are written c. in such were the Pharisies accustomed to write the Commandements and to weare them about their heads or armes in a superstitious manner as appeares by Hierome Oleaster vpon Deut. c 6. Nor doth this passage of Theodoret any whit preiudice the Catholike cause all things being well ballanced First because his sense herein is the sense of the Councell which you see toucheth vs not Secondly his words being duely considered
where euer any one will speake or pray vnto him he will himselfe be readie to heare and answere him CARRE This place vpon the first sight may seeme both liuely to expresse and at once to improue the Catholike custome of making vse of the Saints intercession to God But truely were S. Ambrose the Authour of it as he is not by any scholler beleeued to be euen Caluin himselfe affirming of those Commentaries that they haue nothing worthy of S. Ambrose yet if I make it not appeare to any scholler that it was neither spokē nor meant to that purpose I will be content to loose the small credit I owne The Authours discourse then be he who he will was vpō this verse of S. Paul Saying they were wise men they were made fooles Vpon which he For they thinke themselues wise men because they thinke to finde out Philosophicall reasons searching the courses 〈◊〉 the starrs and the qualities of the elements but despising the Lord of them therfore they are made fooles seeing if these things ought to be praysed how much more their Creatour yet being ashamed of their neglect of God they are wont to vse this miserable excuse saying that by those to witt fellow seruants or creatures whereof the speech was before and are after named conserui they are able to goe to God as by the Countes they come to the king Goe to is any one so madd or so vnmyndfull of his saluation as that he would chalenge the honour of a king to a Count sith if euen any be but found to treate of his matter they are iustly condemned guiltie of treason And these thinke not themselues guiltie who giue away the honour of Gods name to a creature and forsaking the Lord and Master adore their fellow seruants as though there were yet some further thing reserued for God For euen therfore it is that we goe to the king by the meanes of the Tribunes or Counts because indeed the king himselfe is a man and he knowes not in whose hands to intrust the Cōmon wealth But to procure fauour with God from vhom nothing lyes hid for he knowes all mens merits there is no neede of a saffragator but a deuoute mynde For where euer such a one shall speake vnto him he will answere him Obserue hereupon that Mr. Cos in his translation of this passage 1. In steed of ipsos those which must needs haue relation to some persons or things goeing before wherby the sense is cleared he puts others which quite obscures and changes the sense 2. He leaues out this clause most important and decisiue Forsaking the Lord adore their fellow seruants 3. He puts any one where as indeed it is such an one talis referring to one mentioned before deuoute in mynde such an one indeed will be heard without a suffragator that is without needing any to suggest their merits as though God were ignorant of them wherevpon he saith for he knowes all mens merits In a word this Authour is here reprehending the pagan Philosophers who knowing God did not worship him accordingly but gaue away the honour due to him alone to creatures to stockes stones and statuaes whō they called and honored as their gods as is euident all through the chapter In particular where he saith So was their heart blinded that they changed the Maiestie of the inuisible God whō by these his workes they did acknowledge not into men but which is worse and euen a crime not to be excused into the similitude of men that the forme of a corruptible man that is the picture of man is by them tearmed their God that so they may receaue the pictures of them being dead into the glorie of a God to whom being aliue they durst not ascribe Deitie And a little after Changing the trueth of God into a lye that they gaue the name of the true God to those wuich are not Gods for taking from stones wood and other mettall what they are indeed they attribute to them what they are not c. for they are not now called wood or stone but God and this is rather to serue the creature which is called aboue their fellow seruant and in that name condemned then the Creatour So that it is manifest that the Authour doth not at all in this passage touch or point at much lesse reprehend or condēne the Catholike practise of giuing an inferiour honour to the Saints and praying to them to become intercessours for vs which will yet more clearely appeare to such as will take the paynes to reade his booke de viduis after the middest where he saith Peter and Andrew therfore prayed for the widow I wish to God there were any so readie to pray for vs at least he who prayed for his mother in law Peter and Andrew his brother They could then impetrate for affinities sake now they are able to doe it for vs and all men You see that one subiect to a great sinne is lesse fitt to pray at least to obtuyne for her selfe Let her therfore imploye others to pray to the Physitian For the sicke are not able to pray for themselues vnles the Physitian by the intreatie of others be inuited to come to them Flesh is infirme the myned is sicke and hindred with the chaynes of sinnes It is not able to make one weake stepp towards the seate of that Physitiā We must therfore heartely beseech the Angels in our behalfe who are giuen for our helpe we must pray to the Martyrs of whom we seeme to chalenge à certaine kind of patronage by the priuiledge of flesh and bloud They haue abilitie to pray for our sinnes who if they had any sinnes of their owne washed them with their bloud For they are Gods Martyrs our Prelates the ouerseers of our life and actions Let vs not blush to make vse of them for intercessours of our infirmitie since they themselues experienced the infirmitie of flesh and bloud euen while they were victorious As for that sentence to witt To procure fauour with God there is no need of a suffragator which may seeme most to vrge against a Catholike sense I answere first Psal 129. according to that of S. Hilarie The nature of God hath no neede of their intercession to witt of the Angels but our infirmitie And this in case a suffragator signified a helper or intercessour which yet is neuer in proper speech but onely by metaphore much lesse here the true sense of the word For suffragator will be found another thing if we take Tullie for our Master in finding out the true sense of a latine word suffragatio saith he est ipsa voluntatum animorum declaratio quae fit suffragiis the act of suffragating is the verie declaration of mens wills and mynds which is done by suffrage he calls it not a helping or praying for so that it truly imports as much as informer giuer of aduise or one hauing a deliberatiue voyce the word suffrage
Againe vpon the 37. Psalme They would be secure c. not onlie from that eternall fire which shall torment the wicked for euer but also from that too wich shall purge emendabit those who shall be safe by fire And a little aster That fire shall be more grieuous then any thing a man can suffer in this life Now we haue found in the Fathers formall tearmes not in our owne forced consequences which were not in question Prayer made at the Altar Sacrisice for the Dead yea and Fire too wherein their soules are tormented and yet some will not be satisfied but will haue that fire to be vnderstood of the Fire of Conflagration at the day of Doome Let vs therefore yet heare saint Augustine wipe awaie this scruple De Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 23. Paines suffered before the day of Iudgement And it is manifest that such are purged by temporall paines which their spirits suffer before the day of iudgement Againe in the same booke chap. 13. Some suffer temporall paines in this life onlie others after death some both now and then yet before that most seuere and last Iudgement And the same againe the 21 booke chapter the first So that now out of S. Augustine we haue found Prayer Memorie at the Altar Sacrifice Fire which is temporall and that too punishing the spirit or ghost of the dead euen before the day of Generall Conslagration at the day of Doome To thinke to answer all that hath benesaid by opposing some few obscure places cull'd out of the same Father and so were it possible to force him to contradict himselfe were in my iudgment but verie bad payment For first this is not to produce euidences but doubts not to cleare but to obscure difficulties and consequently ought to haue no force at all to thrust a man out of his possession Possideo quia possideo still dasheth such weake opposition vpon the head Secondly it is but a poore shift to make a Father seeme to stand up against himselfe to the end he may stand with them Thirdly it is to treate a holy Father vnworthily to endeauour to draw his sense from his words In his booke de Doctrina Christiana against his owne rule and the Rule of Reason which is that clearer places should illustrate obscure places not that obscure places should be industriously employed to clowde cleare places That is but to put out the light to see better or rather to hate and flye the light least it might lay them naked and they be discouered by it The worst of arguments was wōt to be to ayme to proue an obscure thing by a thing more obscure and yet it is farre worse to darken a cleare thing by an obscure and yet forsooth thinke to haue so preposterous a proceeding passe for an argument Our proceeding is not such our Catholike custome is to pray for to make Commemoration of to Sacrifice at the Altar for the soules departed that they may be releeued or freed from their paines which are caused by fire before the day of iudgement And we bring in our iudge saint Augustine to whom we haue both appealed pronouncing sentence for vs in tearmes in the verie same wordes the Church doth beleeue and practise it We doe not make his sentence for him but take from him such as he pleaseth to deliuer it We vse no violence to him to make him speake what we please but we are well pleased with what he speakes we goe not about to surprise him and wrest a word from him and then force it to our purpose which was spoken only by the bye while he was treating vpon another subiect But wee take his iudgement from places where on sett purpose he is handling that subiect which is in question betwixt vs. In fine wee take it not from one or a fewe which is another Rule of reason to vnderstand a fewe places by many places but from abundance of places all cleare and consonant and to the life expressing the present practice of the Catholike Church Heare him againe and againe in these ensuing passages which I will here promiscuously putt downe as they shall occurre omitting yet a manie more S. Aug. de Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 16. He speakes of Children soone after their infancie and saies If he haue receiued the Sacraments of our Mediatour though he end his life euen in these yeares that is being translated out of the power of darknes into the kingdome of Christ he is not only not prepared for paines eternall but shall not euen suffer anie purging torments after this life De Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 24. The prayer of the Church or of certaine pious people are heard for those who being regenerated in Christ neither ledd se verie ill a life in this mortalitie as they should be iudged vnworthie of such mercie nor yet so verie well as that they should be found not to neede such mercie De verb. Apost Ser. 32. It is not to be doubted but the Dead are helped by the prayers of the holy Church and the sauing Sacrifice and almes which are employed for their soules that our Lord may deale more mercifully with them then their sinnes deserued for the Vniuersall Church obserues this deliuered by their forefathers that prayers should be made for those who died in the communion of the bodie and bloud of Christ when at the Sacrifice they are remembred in their place and memorie is made that it is offered euen for them too And againe in the same place But let them employ these things to witt Oblations Prayers and guifts or Almes-deeds which helpe the soules departed more obseruantly instanly and abundantly for them to witt the dead Enchir. c. 110. It ought not to be denied that the soules of the dead are releeued by the pietie of their suruiuing friends when the Sacrifice of our Mediatour is offered for them or almes are giuen in the Church And againe in the same place When therefore the sacrifices either of the altar or what almes-deedes soeuer are offered for all the dead which are baptised they are thankesguings for such as are verie good they are propitations for those who are not verie euill and though to such as are verie euill they be no helpes to the dead yet are they some kind of comforts to the liuing De verbis Apostoli Serm. 17. Therefore doth ecclesiasticall discipline obserue that which the faithfull know when the Martyrs in that place are recited at the Altar of God where we pray not for them the Martyrs but we pray for the rest of the departed whereof commemoration is made For it is an iniurie to pray for a martyr to whose prayers we our-selues ought to be commended De cura pro mortuis Cap. 18. Which being so let vs not esteeme that the dead haue anie aduantage by being buried in this or that part of the Church whereof he had spoken saue only by the solemne supplications which we make