the like occasion doth himselfe plainly declare For vpon these wordes of S. Iohn If any man offend 1. Ioan. 2. tract 1. we haue an aduocate with the Father IESVS Christ the just one where he putteth this doubt but some man will say therefore doe not the Saints pray for vs doe not the Bishops and gouernours pray for the people After hee solueth this doubt concluding that all the members of Christes body doe pray one for another marry the head prayeth for all vvhere he most plainely sheweth that the soueraigne intercession or mediation of Christ the head doth not exclude the intercession of Saints departed no more then it doth of any other yet liuing M. PERKINS citeth also one sentence out of S. Chrysostome who hath vvritten thus Thou hast no neede of Patrones to God De perfect Euangel nor much running vp and downe to flatter and fawne vpon others for though thou be alone and want a Patrone and by thy selfe pray vnto God thou shalt obtayne thy desire Answere It seemeth by his wordes of running vp and downe and flattering of others vvhich Gods Saints vvill not endure that he speaketh against seeking vnto vaine-glorious and euill mortall men to be our Patrones to God which were folly But admit he meant the Saints departed then let vs take his whole meaning and not wrest his wordes to any other sence then he vvill allowe and like of he doth then often inueigh both against certayne rich men vvho hauing giuen some little almes to the poore thought themselues sure of pardon of their sinnes and of saluation through the poore mens prayers though they prayed not themselues and also against all such sluggish lazie persons as relyed wholy vpon the intercession of Saints not praying much for themselues vpon such as these doth S. Chrysostome often call to pray for themselues and not to trust wholy vnto the prayers of others perswading them that it were better to pray for themselues vvithout Patrones then leauing all to Patrons not to pray themselues at all But the best of all to be both to pray themselues and to imploy also good men and the Saints to pray for them this is his owne declaration in these his wordes Homil. 5. in Math. Let vs not like sluggards and slouthfull companions depend wholy vpon the merits of others for the prayers and supplications of Saints for vs haue their force and that surely very great but then truly when we our selues doe withall by our penitence request and sue for the same And making the like discourse in another place he concludeth thus Homil. 1. in 1. ad Thessal Knowing these thinges neither let vs despise the prayers of the Saints neither let vs cast all vpon them Nowe to the arguments for the Catholike party my first argument shal be to proue that we may pray to the Angels in heauen to blesse vs and to pray for vs to whome after our blessed Lady vve assigne the first place in our Lytanie We haue for our vvarrant the authority and example of the holy Patriarke Iacob expresly set downe in holy Scripture for prayer to Angels Genes 48.15 16. in these wordes God before whome my fathers Abraham and Isaac haue walked God who hath fedde me from my youth vnto this present day and the Angell that hath deliuered me from all euill blesse these children What can be more playne then that this blessed old Patriarke did pray vnto his good Angell Guardian Nay saith M. PER. for by the Angell there you â—â—st vnderstand Christ for that in Malachie Christ is signified by the Angell of the couenant A bonny reason because that an Angell is once in the old Testament vsed to signifie Christ therefore it shall signifie him in vvhat place soeuer it shall please the Protestants Neither doth an Angell in that one place singly put signifie Christ but with an addition the Angell of the couenant to distinguish that Angell from all others so that there is no appearance or colour of likelyhood out of that place so vnlike to interprete this It remayneth then that the vvord Angell be taken properly as it is most commonly in holy Scripture for an heauenly spirit appointed by God to keepe Iacob vvhich I confirme by the circumstance of the place because Iacob prayeth vnto that Angell as to one that vvas then extant and liuing that had also before deliuered him from many perils but Christ vvas not then borne nor had any doings in the vvorld therefore he did not pray to him Againe the wise Patriarke and Prophet must be made to speake very fondly if he should pray him that was not in rerum natura to blesse those children he might very well haue prayed God for Christes sake that vvas to come to blesse them but to pray Christ himselfe whome he knewe then not to be any where liuing or extant to blsse them hath no sence in it for blessing as all other working supposeth a reall being and existence of the same party To this example of Iacob vve may joyne the consaile that Eliphas the Thamite gaue vnto Iob Turne thy selfe vnto some of the Saints and Iobs owne practise * Cap. 19. vers 21. Tob. c. 12. vers 12. Iob cap. 5. vers 1. Haue pitty on me haue pitty on me at least you my friendes Vpon which place S. Augustine saith that Iob the holy man made intercession to the Angels or to the Saints to pray for him to vvhich we may also adde howe that Raphael offered vp good Tobias prayers to God and howe that another a Apoc. 8. vers 3. Angell did giue of the incense of prayers of all Saints vpon the Altar of gold which is before the throne of God Out of which places and such like I frame this argument The Angels be most holy and charitable creatures of themselues they also haue by Gods appointment charge ouer vs and doe assist vs wherevpon it followeth most clearely that they are most ready in vvord and deede to further all our good desires and honest demandes and consequently being by vs requested to pray for vs cannot refuse it To say that they haue no care of our prayers is both contrary to their charity and to their charge and the places in Scripture already cited to vvhich this may be added Christ to discourage men from offending children and little ones alleageth this inducement Math. 18. vers 10. That their Angels see the face of his father in heauen signifying that they vvould complaine of them to God and sue for seuere punishment against such offendours vvhich argueth that they doe very well knowe and carefully tender our good vvhich is also strengthned by an other place Luc. 15. vers 10. where our Sauiour declareth what great joy they make at the conuersion of a sinner Out of all vvhich textes is plainely to be collected that they knowe of our conuersion see the particular wrongs that be offered vs and the
yea for Heathen Princes behold the first kinde of Mediatour For Christians that pray for all men by their intercession are meanes vnto God for conuersion of others and so may be called Mediatours in a good sence as Moyses saith of himselfe Deut. 5. vers 5. Gal. 3. vers 19. Act. 7. vers 35. Iudic. 3. vers 9. I was an intercessour and meanes or mediatour betweene our Lord and you And by S. Paul he is plainely called a Mediatour the law was ordayned by Angels in the hand of a Mediatour And by S. Stephen he is called a Redeemer as Othoniel is tearmed a Sauiour And that in this sence there may be many mediatours S. Cyril testifieth saying * In Ioh. l. 3. cap. 9. The Mediatour of God and man is IESVS Christ not only because he reconciled men vnto God but for that he is naturally both God and man in one person For by this meanes God reconciled our natures to him for otherwise howe should S. Paul haue said Christ to be the only Mediatour for many of the Saints haue vsed the ministery of mediation as S Paul himselfe crying vpon men to be reconciled to God and Moyses was a Mediatour for he ministred the lawe vnto the people and Ieremy was also a Mediatour when he stood before God and prayed for good thinges to the people Related in 2. Concil Nice art 4. What neede many wordes saith this great Doctor all the Prophets and Apostles were Mediatours VVith S. Cyril accordeth S. Basil who hoped for mercy at Gods handes and forgiuenesse of his sinnes by the mediation of the holy Prophets Apostles and Martirs And S. Bernard was of the same minde Serm. super sign◠magnum apparuit in coelo when he taught that we stand in neede of a Mediatour to the Mediatour and no one more for our profit and commodity then the blessed Virgin Mary so that this mediation and intercession of Saints is no whit at all injurious vnto the only mediation of Christ for it is of a farre different kind from Christes mediation and of the same sort as the prayers be of other good men liuing on earth who all sue vnto God in Christs name and hope to obtayne all and euery of them their petitions by the vertue of his merits and therefore all our prayers and theirs are commonly concluded thus Through our Lord IESVS Christ thy Sonne who with thee liueth and raigneth in the vnity of the holy Ghost God for euer and euer And thus much to M. PER. foundation laide vpon the sandes vvherein he so insolently renounced the Catholike doctrine but that I doe him no wrong I must here adde a coople of other arguments which he misplaced in the former question and therefore I reserued them to this The former All true inuocation and prayer made according vnto the will of God must haue a double foundation a commandement and a promise A commandement to moue vs to pray and a promise to assure vs that we shall be heard for euery prayer must be made in faith and without a commandement and promise there is no faith Vpon this infallible ground I conclude that we may not pray to Saints departed for in the Scripture there is no word either commanding vs to pray to them or assuring vs that we shall be heard when we pray Answere We deny that prayer requireth that double foundation of a commandement to pray and promise to be heard when we pray and that vpon the vvarrant of some of the best prayers that are recorded in holy Scripture When Abraham prayed for the sauing of Sodome and Gomorrha Gen. 18. vers 25. and did obtayne that if there had beene in them but tenne just persons their Cyties should not haue beene destroyed we reade neither of commandement giuen to Abraham to make that prayer nor any promise before he beganne it to be heard and this man was the Father of the faithfull and knewe much better then an hundreth M. PERKINS howe and when to pray And vvhen milde Moyses that most vvise conductor of the Israelites prayed vnto God so peremptorily that he would either blot him out of the booke of life or else pardon his people the Israelites Exod. 32. vers 32. had he either commandement so to pray or promise to be heard I am sure that they can shewe me none at all in the Scripture Nay God before entreated Moyses that he would not pray vnto him for them Ibidem vers 10. but suffer him to punish them according to their deserts promising to aduance Moyses exceedingly if he would giue ouer his suite neuerthelesse Moyses omitted not to pray most earnestly for the same people and vvas heard Neede vve any other proofe to ouerthrowe M. PER. rotten foundation And vvhen Iosue rather commanded then prayed Iosue 10. vers 12. that the Sunne should not moue against Gabaon and it stayed his course for a whole day space God obeying vnto the voice of man as the holy Ghost speaketh vvhat commandement or promise had Iosue for this and to omit an hundreth other like what promise had S. Paul to assure him to be heard 2. Cor. 12. vers 8. when he prayed not once but thrise that the pricke of the flesh should be taken away from him none at al I weene for his request would not be granted him By this the indifferent reader may perceiue how grosse the Protestants judgement is in matters of faith vvho take that for an infallible ground of religion vvhich is so contrary vnto the expresse vvord of God that nothing can be more Of faith necessary in prayer shall be spoken as soone as I haue dispatched an other text of Scripture misplaced here and misaplyed Math. 4. vers 10. We are saith M. PER. commanded to call vpon God only him only shalt thou serue This mans eies-sight beginneth to faile him much that cannot discerne betweene calling vpon and seruing when many a Master calleth vpon his man whome he doth not serue but is serued by him The text is already expounded out of S. Augustine that we must serue God only with Godly honour as the Greeke vvordes Latréyseis doth there notifie notwithstanding which only seruice euery seruant I hope may serue his Master and euery inferiour vvorship his superiour and so may we doe the Saints our betters in all goodnesse with such worship as is due vnto their singular gifts And as we may pray vnto men aliue vvithout derogation vnto God his only seruice so may we doe to the Saints departed But M. PER. fearing the weakenesse of this fortification secondeth it with an other out of the Apostle Rom. 10. vers 14. Howe shall we call vpon him in whome we haue not beleeued but we may not beleeue in Saints therefore we may not call vpon them I answere that we cannot call vpon any man for more then we beleeue to be in him and so much must we beleeue to be in euery man as
we will demand at his handes We call vpon Christ for saluation and therefore must we first beleeue him to be a Sauiour we call vpon Saints to pray for vs therefore must vve before hand beleeue that they both can and will pray for vs and that they are able through the fauour and loue that God beareth them to entreate much at Gods handes see howe vve must beleeue in them vpon whom we call for helpe And the very phrase of beleeuing in Saints is vsed by the same a Ad Philemon v. 5. Apostle not vnlike that of the old Testament b Exod. 14 vers 31. The people beleeued God and his seruant Moyses M. PERKINS goeth on patching vp his former argument with that which hath small coherence with it to wit That we haue no promise to be heard but for Christs sake Admit it vvere so it maketh nothing against prayer to Saints for they pray for vs in Christs name and are heard for Christs sake Finally M. PERKINS fableth that we giue for our only warrant of inuocation of Saints miracles and reuelations and thereunto answereth that to judge of any point of doctrine by miracles three thinges must concurre First the doctrine of faith and piety to be confirmed Secondly prayer to God that some thing may be done for the ratifying of the said doctrine Thirdly the manifest edification of the Church by the two former What of all this good Sir Marry thinke what you vvill for he inferreth nothing I will therefore apply all this to the purpose and say first That vvhen a miracle is graunted by God to confirme any point of doctrine in controuersie then euery man is as vvell bound to beleeue that point of doctrine as if it were plainely recorded in the holy Scripture for it hath God to witnesse who cannot deceiue Secondly that S. Bernard a most Godly man and one whose testimony M. PER. doth very often alleage did fulfill all those three worthy obseruations of M. PER. in working of miracles to confirme inuocation of Saints and therefore it is to be beleeued of all men euen by M. PERKINS owne sentence For first he propounded inuocation of Saints Lib. 3. vitae cap. 5. as a doctrine of faith and great piety in the Prouince of Tolouse in France where it was by our Protestants Grandsiers the Albigenses denyed Secondly he blessed some certaine loafes of bread that were presented to him and prayed to God that if inuocation to Saints were pure doctrine of faith that then whosoeuer should taste of that bread might be cured of what disease soeuer he was sicke A Bishop that stoode by added yea Sir if they receiue them with good faith they shall be healed S. Bernard replyed I said not so but whosoeuer shall truly taste of them shall be cured that they may knowe vs to haue the truth and to be the true messengers of God And as it there followeth An huge multitude of sicke and diseased persons tasting of that bread recouered perfect health If we had no other argument then this it alone were sufficient to perswade any Christian that to pray vnto Saints is the true doctrine of Christ which God so expresly would confirme by miracles and testifie so euidently What would he beleeue that will not beleeue this But saith M. PER. miracles be to be done for Infidels and not for them who beleeue True it is and therefore was this miracle done to conuert or to confound such Infidels as our Protestants are vvho will not beleeue the inuocation of Saints Lastly saith he our faith is not to be confirmed by reuelations Luc. 16. vers 29. and apparitions of dead men but by the writings of the Apostles and Prophets What is this either to miracles or inuocation of Saints neither is that which he saith to be drawne out of those wordes of that parable as I will proue when it shall be neede Note by the way that twice in this question he himselfe citeth that parable of Diues and Lazarus for proofe of doctrine vvhich he afterward denyeth to be lawfull for vs to doe What our other groundes be for inuocation of Saints shall be declared in our arguments following M. PERKINS fift reason To pray to Saints departed to bowe the knee to them while they are in heauen is to asscribe vnto them that which is proper to God namely to knowe the hart and inward desires thereof and to knowe the speeches and behauiours of all men in all places on the earth at all times Answere This man doth too too broadly enlarge his lies for neither doe all men at once much lesse at all times pray vnto euery or any one of the Saints but suppose they did yet to heare all their prayers togither is nothing so much as to see that which euery Saint doth see in heauen to wit the one only substance of God in three persons for what are all the cogitations of men compared vnto the immense and incomprehensible nature of God not so much as the point of a pinne to the whole globe of the earth and yet euery Saint in heauen doth clearely behold God therefore much more able are they to heare and see all thinges that belong vnto men And as the learned Diuines knowe the man-hood of our Sauiour Christ doth see knowe and comprehend all the deedes wordes and thoughts of all men that haue liued since the beginning of the world vnto the end because it belongeth vnto him who is judge of all to knowe all aswell to reward the good as to punish the euill and yet doth no Diuine say that the man-hood of Christ is God or equall vnto God in knowledge Nowe the Saints in heauen doe not see the secretes of our harts in our harts but being present to the face of God doe behold in it as it were in a most cleare glasse all that is pleaseth the goodnesse of God to reueale vnto them and it is incident and belonging necessarily vnto their most happy estate to haue graunted to them all that in reason they can demande otherwise they were not so happy as they might be Now what good nature would not be glad to pleasure his owne fellowe members and deare friendes specially such as craue so much at his handes vvherefore it cannot be denyed of any considerate man but that God who satisfieth al their just requests doth ordinarily reueale vnto his dearely beloued Saints all the prayers that be made vnto them Surely S. Augustine in most expresse tearmes declareth De cura pro mort cap. 15. 16. That God can giue such power vnto his Saints and Martirs that they may be present in spirit at euery place throughout the world where there is any memory of them or prayer made vnto them He will not take vpon him to define whether they be actually there present or no or whether by the ministery of Angels they be relieued that seeke helpe by the intercession of Martirs but maketh no
question but that they heare all prayers made by vvhosoeuer to them and obtayne very many of their requests And as S. Gregory saith What doe they not see Lib. 12. Moral cap. 13. who see him that seeth all thinges yea contayneth all thinges within himselfe Yet M. PER. blusheth not to say that it is but a forgery of mans braine to imagine that the God-head is such a cleare glasse representing all thinges because it should then followe that the Angels who behold Gods face should be ignorant of nothing but the Angels haue learned some thinges of the Church as S. Paul witnesseth therefore they see not all thinges in God To this we answere that in God all thinges are represented and shine more brightly then in their owne naturall places yet doth not God communicate and reueale all thinges vnto euery body there present but his diuine nature in three persons Christ God and Man with all other naturall and ordinary thinges from the cope of heauen to the center of the earth are seene of euery Cytizen of heauen though with a different degree of clearenes but of Gods counsels concerning the gouernement of the world so much is only knowne vnto either Angell or Men as appertayneth vnto their state and that when it belongeth vnto them therefore the Angels might well not knowe many thinges belonging to the gouernement of the Church vntill they sawe it accomplished and therefore might be said to haue learned some such thing of the Church But as we haue said before it properly appertayneth vnto the state of Saints in heauenly blisse to knowe their friendes reasonable requests made vnto them or else their conditions should not be so perfect but that they might in equity require the bettering of it and consequently they could not be so throughly contented as their estate of perfect felicity in heauen doth demande and thus much of M. PER. reasons To which I will here adde one argument commonly vsed by the Protestants though M. PER. for the weakenesse of it perhaps thought best to omit it it is taken ab authoritate negatiuè which Schollers knowe to be naught worth Math. 11. vers 28. Christ saith come yee vnto me all yee that labour and be burdened and I will refresh you he saith not goe to the Saints but come to me I answere neither doth he say doe not goe to the Saints and therefore here is nothing against vs. We goe to Christ for remission of our sinnes which lye more heauy then a talent of lead vpon our backes and through our redeemers merits doe we craue pardon of them but to moue more effectually this our redeemer and God his father to haue pitty vpon vs we humbly desire the Saints his best beloued seruants to speake a good vvord in our behalfe acknowledging our selues vnvvorthy to obtayne any thing at Gods handes through our owne vngratefull wickednes Now that our Sauiour Christ IESVS doth very well like and approue the mediation of others euen to himselfe may be gathered out of very many euident texts of holy Scripture Math. 8. vers 13. for he at the intercession of the Centurion cured his seruant and * Math. 9 vers 2. seing the faith of them that brought a man sicke of the palsey before him he healed the sicke man and a Luc. 4. vers 38. at his disciples request cured S. Peters mother in lawe And vvhen the vvoman of Chanaan sued vnto him for her daughter b Math. 15 vers 23. he answered her not a word before his disciples had besought him for her by which and many such like recorded in the Gospell euery man that is not wilfully blinde may well see that the intercession of others for vs doth much preuaile euen with our soueraigne intercessor and mediator Christ IESVS himselfe nowe to his authorities Lib. 3. cōt Parmenia cap. 3. The first is out of S. Augustine Christian men commend each other in their prayers to God And who prayeth for all and for whome none prayeth he is the one and true mediatour I answere these wordes be rather for vs for approuing and confessing our Sauiour Christ to be the only mediatour of redemption as we haue already declared they teach that all Christians may commend themselues each to others prayers Nowe the Saints departed be Christians I trust as good as we or rather farre better therefor all other Christians may very well in S. Augustines judgement commend themselues vnto the Saints holy prayers because each one may commend himselfe to any others prayers Concerning the word Mediatour S. Augustine neuer attributeth it vnto any sauing only to our Sauiour taking it alwaies in the second signification aboue named to which three thinges are properly required according to S. Augustine first that he pray for all and that none pray for him which property M. PER. toucheth but misquoteth the place for it is in lib. 2. cap. 8. cont Parmenianum The second property and the most necessary of all is that he pay the full price and ransome of all our sinnes and that his redemption may in equall ballance counterpoise the grieuousnesse of our sinnes which is taken out of diuers places of Scripture The third which is the ground of al the rest is that the Mediatour be both God and Man that participating of both natures he may be as it vvere a naturall middle or meanes to reconcile the two Extreames and so as Man be able to suffer something to appease Gods wrath and as God to giue to that suffering of his man-hood infinite value making thereby Christs sufferinges more then sufficient to pay for the redemption of an hundred vvorldes if neede had beene And these proprieties gathered out of c Lib. 9. de ciuitate cap. 15. alibi S. Augustine and other Fathers will put downe M. PER. odde deuise of proprieties of a Mediatour all which make nothing against the intercession of Saints who be not in that sence to be called mediatours and yet cease not to pray for vs let vs then goe on M. PERKINS citeth secondly another sentence out of S. Augustine where he bringeth in our Sauiour saying Tract 22. in Iohan. Thou hast no whether to goe but to me thou hast no way to goe but by me Answere S. Augustine there alludeth vnto those vvordes of our Sauiour I am the way the truth and the life and saith that for life and truth vve haue no other way to seeke vnto but vnto Christ vvho according vnto his diuinity is truth and life vnto the vvorld And in this high degree of redemption and mediation he was the only way vnto his Father for neither the Gentiles by their morall vertues nor Iewes by the power of their law could without him leade them to God All this is very good doctrine but no whit more against praying to Saints then against commending of vs one to anothers prayers or vsing any other meanes of saluation as S. Augustine vpon
good deedes we doe so that the Protestants can finde no starting hole to escape out at for that they both heare our prayers and be willing to pray for vs. And hauing wonne the Protestants to beginne our Lytanies with vs Luc. 20. vers 36. and so to say S. Michael pray for vs all holy Angels pray for vs c. We may no doubt perswade them to goe forward thus the Saints in heauen are equall vnto Angels both in charity knowledge affection towardes vs and what else soeuer is requisite vnto intercession therefore if we may pray vnto Angels we may also pray vnto the Saints M. PERKINS answereth that at the generall resurrection Saints shall be equall vnto Angels as our Sauiour saith but not before Reply If Saints then shall be equall to Angels they are so at their first entrance into possession of the heauenly joyes for as all Diuines confesse the essentiall glory of their soule shal not be encreased at the resurrection and the glory of their body which they shall then receiue doth not make them more like but rather more vnlike vnto Angels that haue no bodies at all therefore this answere is insufficient which M. PERKINS foreseing addeth a second Saints be equall to Angels in glory but not in office and ministery by which they are ministring spirits for good men leauing vs to vnderstand belike for the good man doth not expresse it that because the Angels are ministring spirits therefore they better knowe our prayers and are more carefull to pray for vs. Reply First the Saints being of our owne nature and hauing passed the like perils that we be in and being also members of the same body of Christ as vve are cannot but tender the matter of our saluation as much as Angels doe especially considering that their charity towardes God bindeth them to further by all possible meanes his honour and seruice and their loue towardes their neighbours doth moue them sufficiently to second and helpe forward our saluation in what they can But the other point of their knowledge of our affaires is of greater difficulty the which vve proue first by the perfect knowledge they haue of God which is as great and also greater then some Angels haue and so in that cleare mirrour of Gods substance they may most easily see all that hath beene is or shall be said or done vpon earth And we say further that the perfection of their most happy state doth demand as due to it that they should be made priuy vnto their friendes reasonable suites vnto them All vvhich hath beene already proued But here I will adde this which is to the prâ—sent purpose That the Saints haue also charge ouer vs and therefore that it belongeth vnto their office as well as to the office of Angels to be acquainted with our affaires in particular That God hath appointed the Saints to rule ouer vs is proued out of our Sauiours wordes vvhere he saith Luc. 19. vers 17. That the good seruant for well vsing of his pound shall be placed ouer tenne Cyties And againe * Apoc. 2. vers 26. He that shall ouercome and keepe my wordes vntill the end I will giue him power ouer Nations and he shall rule them with a rodde of yron c. euen as I haue receiued of my father Item a Ibid. 3. vers 21. I will giue him to sit with me in my throne Out of which textes is plainely gathered that Christ giueth vnto holy Martirs and Saints a charge and command ouer Cyties Countries and Nations which the auncient Fathers haue well obserued and doe plainely testifie Lib. 8. in Lucam De viduis In 40. Mart. Whereupon S. Ambrose saith Euen as Angels doe gouerne ouer vs so doe they who haue attayned vnto the life of Angels In another place he calleth the Saints departed salutis nostrae Praesides the Presidents of our saluation S. Basil tearmeth them Protectors of mankinde Gregory Nazianzene desireth S. Cyprian to looke downe vpon him and to direct his speech and life b Orat. in Cyprian and to feede his flocke to gouerne them togither with him Theodorete saith that they at his time that went from home Lib. 8. de curandis prayed the Martirs to be their companions or rather the guides of their journey and returning safe did yeeld them thankes acknowledging the benefit by them Many more such like testimonies may be produced out of the auncient learned Fathers if neede require to shewe manifestly howe they vnderstood the Scriptures concerning this office and ministery or rather presidency of the Saints departed ouer vs that liue on the earth vvherefore to conclude this reason the Saints being equall vnto the Angels aswell in office and ministery as in charity and affection towardes vs we may aswel pray vnto them as vnto the Angels Our third reason shall be to preuent that euasion of theirs their God forsooth is so ready of himselfe to heare vs that we need not any spokesman to him thus I propose it One of vs liuing here may pray vnto another to pray to God for him therefore much rather may vve pray vnto the Saints departed to pray for vs because the better that the men be that pray for vs the more vvorth are their prayers according to that of S. Iames The continual praier of a just man auaileth much Iac. cap. 5 vers 17. And the examples of Abraham Moyses Iob Elias and such like excellent men doe confirme the same vvhose prayers God did heare when he refused to heare others Yea Gen. 20. vers 7. Iob 42. vers 8. God himselfe as the Scripture teacheth aduised Abimilech King of Egipt to speake vnto Abraham to pray for him and would not heare Iobs friendes praying for themselues but sent them to his seruant Iob to request him to pray for them at whose intercession he did pardon them Doth not this most plainely proue that notwithstanding Gods readinesse to receiue vs into his grace yet his will and pleasure is that vve doe pray vnto others to be a meanes vnto him for vs especially vvhen we haue so offended him that vve may justly be ashamed euen to present our selues before his diuine Majestie neede we any better warrant for praying vnto others then the aduise and commandement of God himselfe Now to the confirmation of the consequent But the Saints Math. 11. vers 11. yea the least in the Kingdome of heauen is greater then S. Iohn Baptist that is then the best on earth ergo their prayers will doe vs much more good then any mans prayer yet liuing M. PERKINS answereth that we haue a commandement to pray vnto the liuing but none to pray vnto Saints departed Reply I haue already confuted this answere vvhere I shewed before that we neede no commandement to pray or to desire others to pray for vs but it is sufficient to knowe their credit with God and willingnesse to intreate for vs when they be
thereof Reply Why doth he then twice in this very question gather out of it first that Abraham was in heauen then that faith is not to be confirmed by apparitions of dead men vvhich are not the principall intent and scope of it but we must giue our newe Masters leaue both to affirme a thing when it seemeth to make for them and after to denie the same flatly when it beareth against them Lib. 2. in IouinianuÌ„ de cura pro mort cap. 14. lib. 4. dialog c. 29. We then say with S. Ambrose vpon that place vvith S. Hierome with S. Augustine and with S. Gregory the foure principall Doctors of the Latin Church that the story of Diues and Lazarus is a true hystoricall narration and not a parable of that which neuer was as by the proper names of Abraham and Lazarus and other circumstances they gather And vvhereas M. PER. objecteth against it That then it may be collected out of it that wicked men in hell haue compassion and loue to their bretheren on earth and zeale to Gods glory because Diues seemeth so to haue had I answere that there is no appearance of any zeale of Gods glory in Diues only he desired that some might goe out of that place of torment to aduertise his bretheren of it that they came not to him thither which was not out of any loue neither that he bare to his bretheren but for feare of his owne further torments if they came thither after him because he had giuen them euill example and encouragement to doe euill and perhaps euill counsell vvhen he liued vvith them and therefore was by their condemnation to receiue increase of his owne paynes so that his intreaty for them proceeded only out of the loue of himselfe and from the feare of more grieuous torments Nowe it being certayne that Abraham in heauen according to the Protestants opinion could heare Diues in hel much more easily can the Saints in heauen heare our prayers or any mans that dwelleth on earth Nowe after our doctrine who hold Abraham then to haue beene in Lymbo thus the argument must be framed If Abraham not yet indued with that perfect knowledge which the Saints in heauen haue could neuerthelesse heare Diues in hell betweene whome and himselfe there was magnum Chaos Ibid. 26. as the text hath a huge deepe darkenesse and great distance with much facility can the Saints who excell him being then in Lymbo in knowledge see and heare men liuing on the earth Our fift argument the Saints in heauen doe present vnto God the prayers of holy men liuing vpon the earth therefore they knowe the same prayers well in particular and embrace and recommend them to the diuine Majestie The consequent is manifest because no man can offer vp by word of mouth a petition if he knowe not what it is neither will any vvise-man such as the Saints be speake for he knoweth not whome nor what wherefore if the Saints doe present our prayers to God they doe knowe them in particular The antecedent is set downe in expresse tearmes in the word of God The 24. Seniours who sate about the throne of God fell before the Lambe hauing euery one harpes and golden vials ful of odours Apoc. 5. vers 8. which are the prayers of Saints M. PER. saith that these were their owne prayers and not other mens but vvithout alleadging either authority or reason We proue by the text it selfe that it must be vnderstoode of other mens prayers and not their owne because otherwise in due construction it should haue beene said Which are their owne praiers but the text saying That the odour of their vials were the prayers of Saints it distinguisheth plainely those Saints from themselues vvhich also the learned interpreters on that place Primasius and the Greeke schoole with Oecumenius doth confirme and testifie The former arguments were to proue that the Saints doe heare our prayers now the sixt reason shall be to meete with that out-cry of our aduersaries that forsooth vve robbe God of his honour and giue it to Saints when we pray vnto them thus God is more honoured by our worshipping and praying vnto Saints departed then if we did no worship vnto them nor prayed not vnto them at all but went immediately to God without their helpe therefore if it were for nothing else but for the greater honor of God we ought to worship Saints and to pray vnto them I proue the former proposition thus First we worship the Saints only for the supernaturall gifts vvhich God hath bestowed vpon them which must needes redound vnto the honour of the giuer as when I honour any of the kings officers it being principally because he is the kings officer the King himselfe is together and more principally honored and Christ saith expresly that hee that despiseth one of his seruants Luc. 10. vers 16. despiseth Christ himselfe Whence it followeth that he who respecteth and honoureth one of his seruants especially because he is his seruant doth together and in deed more principally honour Christ he and his graces being the very cause why vve respect and vvorshippe the other Further vvhen many and those of the vvorthyest sort doe become humble suitors vnto God for any one of vs much more honour is done vnto God through the dignity of their persons then if one meane silly sinner did sue to him alone For it is more honourable and magnificall to doe a pleasure at the instance and request of many vvorthy personages then where one poore worme alone doth sue for it yea and much more excellent thankes is rendred vnto God by the number and dignity of the suitors when their petition is graunted them This argument which is euident reason is grounded also vpon S. Pauls authority who requesteth the Christians of Corinth to helpe him in their prayers 2. Cor. 1. vers 11. That saith he by many mens persons thankes for the gift which is in vs may be giuen by many in our behalfe Seeing then that by our praying vnto the Saints they are drawne in to become suitors vvith vs and for vs and consequently obtayning their suite they stand aswell bound to render thankes to God therefore as we doe It followeth thereupon most euidently that God is by our praying to his Saints both more honored when such worthy persons sue vnto him for vs and also better thanked for that we doe obtaine by their intercession Now let vs close vp this question with the testimony of some of the moâ—â— ancient famous and best learned Doctors of both the Greeke and Latin Church Origen who liued not much aboue 200. yeares after Christ prayeth vnto that blessed paterne of patience Iob Lib. 2. in Iob. thus O happy Iob nowe liuing for euer with God and remayning a conquerour in the sight of our Lord and King pray for vs wreatches that the wonderfull mercy of God may also defend vs in all tribulations and deliuer
vs from all oppressions of the wicked one In euang de sanct Deipara c. Athanasius Patriarke of Alexandria and first of the foure principall Doctors of the Greeke Church after many prayses of the immaculate Virgin Mary saith Therefore all the rich men of the earth doe pray vnto thee to be enriched with thy goodes and spirituall contemplations We doe cry vnto thee remember vs most sacred Virgin c. Gregory Nazianzene the second of these famous Doctors doth thus pray vnto S. Athanasius who dyed in his time Orat. in sanct Athanas O Athanasius ô sacred and louing hart c. thou from aboue looke fauourably vpon vs and gouerne this holy people that adore the holy Trinity and cherish and feede vs in peace c. The like prayer he maketh to S. Cyprian and to S. Basil in his funerall orations made of them S. Basil speaking of fourty Martirs Orat. in quadrag Mart. of whome he made his sermon saith He that is troubled flyeth vnto these fourty and he that rejoyseth runneth vnto them they that they may be deliuered from their aduersity these that they may continue in prosperity here the Godly woman is found praying for her children c. S. Chrysostome the last but not the least of the foure highly commendeth the Emperour of Rome for praying vnto S. Peter and S. Paul saying He that is revested in purple Hom. 66. ad populuÌ„ Antioch Ibid. goeth to embrace their tombes and all state laid aside doth become an humble suppliant to the Saints that they would pray vnto God for him he that goeth crowned with a Diademe and imperiall crowne humbly prayeth vâ—to the fisher-man and to the maker of tents as to his patrones and protectors Let vs to make vp the halfe dozen joyne one other their equall vvith the former it shall be Gregory Nyssene S. Basils brother he speaking vnto the Martir Theodore saith Make intercession vnto the King of all for our Country Orat. in Theodor. we stand in dread of great persecution The wicked Scithians are at hand and about to wage battle against vs thou as a souldier fight for vs as a Martir speake boldly in our cause and much more to this purpose which I omit that I be not ouer tedious To those of the Greeke Church let vs joyne as many of the Doctors of the Latin Church beginning with S. Ambrose the first of the foure more famous Doctors he first teacheth Lib. de viduis That Angels and Martirs are to be besought vnto and earnestly prayed vnto by vs alleadging that they are our Presidents and the beholders of our life and actions and encourageth vs not to be ashamed to vse them as intercessors of our infirmity And in another place prayeth thus That this my prayer may be of greater force Serm. 91. de inuent corpor Geruas Prothas I request the aide of the blessed Virgin Mary of the Apostles Martirs and Confessors the prayers of such personages thou ô Lord doest neuer despise if it shall please thee to inspire them to pray for me S. Augustine also first teacheth vs to pray to Martirs saying a Tract 84 in Iohan. We doe not so remember Martirs at that table as we doe others that rest in peace for we doe not pray for them but rather pray to them that they will pray for vs. And else where he saith b Serm. 7. de verbis Apostoli That it is an injury to pray for a Martir vnto whose prayers we ought to recommend our selues Secondly he himselfe c De bapt coÌ„t Donat lib. 7. ca. 1. prayeth vnto S. Cyprian to helpe him with his good prayers Thirdly he hath recorded d Lib. 22. de ciuitat Dei cap. 8. the miraculous helpe which two seuerall persons obtained by praying vnto the Martir S. Stephen S. Hierome is so formall for vvorshipping of Relikes and praying to Saints in his treatise against Vigilantius that the Protestants are driuen to preferre that odious Heretike before him Yet because some of them denie him to speake there of praying to Saints note these wordes of his Thou Vigilantius sayest that whilest we liue we may pray one for another but after we be dead no mans prayer shall profit other c. see the objection of the Protestant Nowe heare that learned Doctors answere If saith he Apostles and Martirs whiles they liued here might pray for others when they ought to be carefull for themselues howe much more nowe after their crownes and triumphes Take also another place of his which is so cleare that it cannot admit any exception Epist ad EustochiuÌ„ in epitaph Paulae Farewell saith he to that blessed vvidowe Paula being then departed this life and with thy prayers helpe the old age of him that worshippeth thee thy faith and good workes haue joyned thee to Christ being present thou shalt more easily obtayne that which thou wilt aske The fourth of Latin Doctors is Gregory the great to whome vve English-men are so much bound for our conuersion to the Christian faith he perswadeth praying to Saints in this sort Homil. 31 super euaÌ„g â—fine If any of vs had a great cause to be heard tomorrowe before a high judge we would this day most diligently seeke out a wise well spoken and gratious counsailour that were likelyest to handle it in the best manner Behold saith he the seuere judge IESVS assisted with a terrible troupe of Angels and Archangels is to sit vpon vs before that majesticall assembly the cause of our saluation is to be discussed and yet we doe not nowe prouide vs Patrones that may on that day defend vs Martirs will then be good aduocates but they looke to be requested and as I may say doe seeke that they may besought vnto therefore seeke by praying vnto them to gette them to be your Patrones make them before hand intercessors of your guiltynesse because he that is to be our judge will be nowe intreated that then he may not punish vs. To these foure pillers of the Latin Church I will to make the number equall with the Greeke Fathers adde two others the first shall be out of Ruffinus vvho vvas of S. Hieromes standing of the most Christian Emperour Theodosius Ruffin li. 2. hyst ca. 33. He assisted with the Priestes and People visited the holy places and clad in bayre-cloath lay prostrate before the shrines of the Apostles and Martirs and by his faithfull intercession and praying to the Saints most humbly sued for succour The last shall be our famous country-man venerable Bede Let vs saith he with swift flight Lib. 4. in Cant. circa finem seeke vnto the holes of the wall that is let vs flie vnto the often intercession of Angels and Saints that they may pray for vs vnto our mercifull creatour for these are the most strong and surest fortresses of holy Church Nowe I vvould gladly knowe vvhether the testimony of these dozen of
Such nowe a daies is the condition of the Lutherans De prophetia Christi that if any man list to behold a great number of Knawes robbers malitious persons coseners vsurers and such like deceiuers let him but enter into a City where the Gospell is taught and there he shall find good store of them and a litle after Surely it is true that among Heathens Iewes Turkes and other Infidels none can be found more vnruly and that lesse esteeme of honestie and vertue then the Euangelicall Bretheren with whome all thinges passe currant and nothing almost is blamed except vertue For the Diuell hath shaken of all their bandes and turned them loose Hauing done with the Creede and tenne Commandements we must nowe come to our Lordes praier Master PER. beginneth with it thus The Lordes praier is a most absolute forme of prayer nowe in this we are taught to direct our prayers to God alone Our father c. and that only in the name and mediation of Christ for God is our father only by Christ therefore to vse any mediation of Saints is needelesse Ans We allowe our Lordes praier to be a most perfect forme of praier yet hold that many other sort of praiers may be made vnto God very acceptably as sundry other praiers vsed by Christ set downe in the Gospel doe teach vs and therefore to argue that because one praier of Christs making is directed to God that no other may be made to any Saint is very childish We gather praier to Saints out of S. Paules requesting the Romans and Corinthians and others to pray for him and out of the mediation of the woman of Cananea to Christ for her daughter and the Disciples speaking to Christ for her with such like both out of the old and newe Testament For if it had beene either needlesse or bootelesse to haue praied vnto God any otherwise then in the name and by the mediation of Christ then S. Paul would not haue requested the helpe of mortall mens praiers to God for him and if poore sinners praiers may helpe vs much more may the intercession of the glorious Saints doe who are in farre greater fauour with God See the question of intercession of Saints Againe if that only forme of praier were to be vsed neither were it lawfull to pray to Christ himselfe neither could it be proued thereby that we should pray in Christes name For there is no expresse mention of Christes name neither any petition for Christes sake For God may be truly called our father in that he immediately createth and giueth vs our soules which is more then our bodies that we receiue from our carnall fathers Secondly he hoppeth to the fourth petition Giue vs our daylie bread in which wordes we acknowledge saith he that euery morsel of bread is the meere gift of God what madnesse then is it for vs to thinke that we should merit the kingdome of heauen that cannot merit so much as bread It is false that we cannot merit our bread Math. 10. vers 11. 1. Cor. 9. vers 14. For Christ teacheth that he who goeth to preach the Gospell is worthy of that is meriteth and deserueth his meate which S. Paul testifieth saying that our Lord ordained that those who preach the Gospell should liue of the Gospell And doe not day labourers deserue their bread before they eate it and others that buy their bread doe I hope deserue it What ignorance then is it in the very principles of our faith to auouch that we cannot merit bread which notwithstanding we pray God to giue vs because neither could we deserue and yerne it without his helpe and assistance neither would it doe vs any good without his blessing Thirdly in the next petition Forgiue vs our debtes fower opinions of the Roman religion saith he are directly ouerthrowne What fower at one blowe what a Hercules haue we here let vs heare which The first is humane satisfaction for the child of God is taught here to pray for the pardon of his sinnes nowe to pray for pardon and to make satisfaction be contrary Answ This is a sillie ouerthrowe for it is so farre of that praier and satisfaction are contraries that praier it selfe is one of the three workes of satisfaction Fasting Praying and giuing of Almesse are not contrary but the very workes of satisfaction Lib. 1. de Simbolo cap. 6. in Enchir. cap. 69. And our Lordes praier is esteemed by S. Augustine who is assoone to be beleeued as M. PERKINS sufficient of it selfe to satisfie for the light daylie offences that just men fall into besides Christ himselfe praied for pardon of these mortall sinnes for which notwithstanding Gods justice was fully satisfied by Christ his sufferings wherefore satisfaction and to sue for pardon are not so contrary but they may well stand together Nowe to the second downefall merits are here also ouerthrowne For we acknowledge our selues debters and we daylie increase our debts nowe it is madnesse to thinke that they who daylie increase their debts can deserue or purchase any good of the creditors in a word this must be thought vpon c. And good reason too First then I answere that venial sinnes and smal debts that just men daylie incurre doe not hinder the daylie merit of their other good workes As a seruant hired by the day by committing some small fault doth not thereby loose his daies wages againe though he should commit such a fault that might make him vnworthy of his daies hire yet if his Master did forgiue him that fault his wages were notwithstanding due to him and so the asking pardon for our sinnes doth not ouerthrowe but rather establish and fortifie our merits The third opinion imagined to be confuted by this petition is that temporall punishment may be retained after the crime it selfe and the eternall is remitted but this cannot stand saith he For we owe to God obedience and for the defect of this paiment we owe to God the forfeiture of punishment Sinne then is called our debt in respect of the punishment And therefore when we pray for pardon of our sinnes we require not only the fault to be pardoned but the whole punishment and when debt is pardoned it is absurd to thinke that the least paiment should remaine Answ Here is a most absurd collection For when we in our Lordes praier craue pardon of our debts we confesse that we are in his debt and that there is paiment of punishment yet due vnto vs the remission whereof we then require nowe this praier is made by the best men after their conuersion as he confesseth who standing in Gods fauour and therefore free from eternall punishment doe notwithstanding craue pardon and release of some punishment by M. PERKINS owne interpretation Whereupon it followeth most euidently out of this petition that after eternall punishment is forgiuen vnto the just there is some other punishment remaining of which they craue pardon and consequently this
right meaning of all obscure sentences as they most childishly beare their followers in hand Briefly to conclude this point a great number of them hauing Gods word corrupted for the lanterne to their feete and their owne dimme sight for their best guide no maruaile though they stumble at many difficulties in these high misteries and fall into very absurd opinions concerning the principall partes of them Nowe to make vp an euen reckoning with M. PER. Atheisme I must come vnto their diuine seruice and worship of God the third point that I promised to handle because he spared not to speake his pleasure of ours First then whereas a true reall and externall sacrifice is among all externall workes the most excellent seruice that can be done to the diuine Majestie as shall be proued in the question of the sacrifice which also hath euer since the beginning of the world beene by the best men practised to acknowledge and testifie aswell the soueraigne dominion that God hath ouer vs as our dutifull subjection vnto his almighty goodnesse the Protestantes to make knowne vnto the wiser sorte that they are not Gods true loyall people will not vouchsafe to performe to him any such speciall seruice as to sacrifice in his honour nay they are fallen so farre out with this principall part of Gods true worship that they doe in despite of it powre out most vile reproches against the daylie sacrifice of the Catholike Church which contayneth the blessed body and most pretious bloud of our redeemer IESVS Christ. Secondly of seauen Sacraments instituted by our Sauiour both to exhibite honour to God and to sanctifie our soules they doe flatly reject fiue of them And doe further as much as in them lieth extinguish the vertue and efficacy of the other two For they hold Baptisme not to be the true instrumentall cause of remission of our sinnes and of the infusion of grace into our soules but only to be the signe and seale thereof And in steade of Christes sacred body really giuen to all Catholikes in the Sacrament of the Altar to their exceeding comfort and dignity the Protestantes must be content to take vp with a bitte of bread and with a suppe of wine a most pittifull exchange for so heauenly a banquet They doe daylie feele and I would to God they had grace to vnderstand what a want they haue of the Sacrament of Confession which is the most soueraigne salue of the world to cure all the deadly and dangerous woundes of the soule Ah howe caresty doe they daylie heape sinne vpon sinne and suffer them to lie festring in their breastes euen till death for lacke of launcing them in season by true and due confession Besides at the point of death when the Diuell is most busie to assault vs labouring then to make vs his owne for euer there is amongst them no anointing of the sicke with holy oile in the name of our Lord as S. Iames prescribeth joyned with the Priestes prayer Cap. 5. vers 14. which should saue the sicke and by meanes whereof his sinnes should be forgiuen and he lifted vp by our Lord and inwardly both greatly comforted and strengthned these heauenly helpes I say and many others which our Catholike religion afford vnto all persons by which rightly administred God is highly magnified are quite banished out of the Protestant territories and consequently their religion for want of them is mightily maymed They haue yet remayning some poore short prayers to be said twise a weeke for fearing belike to make their Ministers surfette of ouer much praying they will not tie them to any daylie prayers Mattins Euensong and other set houres they leaue to the Priestes sauing that on the Sabbaoth they solemnely meete together at the Church to say their seruice which is a certayne mingle-mangle translated out of the old portaise and Masse booke patched vp together with some fewe of their owne inuentions And though it be but short yet it is the Lord he knowes performed by most of them so slightly that an indifferent beholder would rather judge them to come thither to gase one vpon another or to common of worldly businesse then reuerently there to serue God Nowe as concerning the place where their diuine seruice is said if goodly stately Churches had not beene by men of our religion built to their handes in what simple cotes trowe you would their key-cold deuotion haue beene content to serue their Lord if one Church or great steeple by any mishap fall into vtter ruine a collection throughout all England for many yeares together will not serue to build it vp againe which maketh men of judgement to perceiue that their religion is exceeding cold in the setting foreward of good workes and that it rather tendeth to destruction then to edification Againe whereas our Churches are furnished with many goodly Altars trimmed vp decently and garnished with sundry faire and religious pictures to strike into the beholders a reuerent respect of that place and to drawe them to heauenly meditations theirs haue ordinarely bare walles hanged with cob-webs except some of the better sort which are daubed like Ale-houses with some broken sentences of Scripture Besides the ancient custome of Christians being to pray with their faces towardes the Sunne rising to shewe the hope they haue of a good resurrection and that by tradition receiued euen from the Apostles as witnesseth Saint Basil their Ministers in their highest misteries De Spiritu sancto 27. looke ouer their communion table into the South to signifie perhaps that their spirituall estate is now at the highest and that in their religion there is no hope of rising towardes heauen but assurance of declining I may not here omitte that of late yeares they haue caused the Kinges armes to be set vp in the place where Christes armes the Crucifix was wont to stand the which I confesse would haue graced their Church better if it had beene else where placed But I hope they will giue me leaue to aske them howe they durst set vp any such Images in their Churches as be in that armes For they haue taught hitherto that it is expresly against the second commandement and a kind of Idolatry not only to worshippe Images but also to set them vp in Churches and yet nowe as it were cleane forgetting themselues they fall into that fault themselues that they haue so much blamed in others Neither will it helpe them to say that they reproued only the setting vp of holy pictures but not of others For the second commandement as they expound it is aswell against the one as the other forbidding generally the making of any kind of Image And is it not a pittifull blindnesse to thinke that the pictures of Lions and Liberts doe better become the house of God then the Image of his owne Sonne and of his faithfull seruants And may not simple people thinke when they see Christes armes cast downe and the Princes set vp in
of Gods seruants OF INTERCESSION OF SAINTS OVR CONSENT M. PERKINS Page 258. OVr consent I will set downe in two conclusions The first conclusion The Saints departed pray to God by giuing thankes to him for their owne redemption and for the redemption of the whole Church of God vpon earth The second conclusion The Saints departed pray generally for the state of the whole Church THE DISSENT THey hold that the Saints in heauen doe make intercession for particular men and that hauing receiued particular mens prayers they present them vnto God but this doctrine doe we flatly renounce vpon these groundes and reasons Esay 63. vers 16. The Church saith to God doubtlesse thou art our Father though Abraham be ignorant of vs and Israel knowe vs not Nowe if Abraham knewe not his posterity neither Mary nor Peter nor any Saint departed knowe vs and our estate and consequently they cannot make particular intercession for vs. To this vve answere two wayes first vvith S. Hierome vpon the same place that to knowe one is taken there for to like and approue him and his doings Psal 1. as it is very often in holy Scripture Our Lord knoweth the way of the just Item Christ vvill answere to them that were workers of iniquity Math. 7. vers 25. I knowe yee not as also to the foolish Virgins I knowe yee not that is I like you not euen so Abraham and Iacob could not then knowe that is approue the doing of those their wicked and degenerate children Secondly vve answere that Abraham and the holy Patriarkes vvere vntill Christ had by his passion paide their ransome not yet in the possession of heauenly joyes but detayned in a place of rest by the learned commonly called Lymbus Patrum To this second answere M. PER. replyeth If they say that Abraham was in Lymbo which they will haue to be a part of hell what joy could Lazarus haue in Abrahams bosome and with what comfort could Iacob say on his death bedde O Lord I haue wayted for thy saluation We rejoyne that albeit Lymbo be thought to be vnder the earth yet is it as farre remote from hell as the depth of the earth will giue it leaue for the place of Purgatory is betweene hell and it Further that in Lymbo there was no payne but a quiet expectation of their deliuerance from thence and translation into heauen vvhich brought them great joy besides the good company of many millions of holy soules that there attended the same happy houre of their deliuerance of all vvhich Lazarus vvas partaker being carryed into Abrahams bosome I vvill here omit that M. PER. in this very question maketh this matter of Lazarus but a parable and thereby not fit to confirme any point of doctrine in his owne judgement To the second place I say that Iacob might haue great comfort to thinke vpon his saluation vvhich should be accomplished in Christs time for Abraham who was father of them Ioh. 8. vers 56. 2. Reg. 22. vers 20. rejoyced to see Christs dayes which he sawe and was glad as our Sauiour himselfe testifieth The second reason Huldah the Prophetesse telleth Iosias that he must be gathered to his fathers and put in his graue in peace that his eyes might not see all the euill which God would bring on that place Therefore the Saints departed see not the state of the Church on earth this conclusion Augustine confirmeth at large To this vve answere first that the Prophetesse when shee saith he should not see the euill of that place meaneth no more then that he should be after his death in such a place of rest and contentment that it should not grieue and vexe him to see the just punishment of his owne Country Secondly it may be said of Iosias who dyed long before Christ as it is of Abraham that he vvas to remayne in Lymbo vvhen that euill should happen and so should not see it But Augustine saith he doth confirme this conclusion at large VVhy did not the honest man quote the place of S. Augustine as he is wont to doe was it because it would leade vs directly to the discouery of his deceit S. Augustine indeede doth very copiously handle the question what knowledge soules departed haue De cura pro mort ca. 15. 16. and resolueth that soules departed of their owne naturall knowledge doe not vnderstand what is done by their friendes here but that either by the report of other soules that come to them or of Angels that goe betweene or else by the reuelation of the spirit of God in whose presence Saints departed doe continually stand they may very well knowe that which is here done and thus much of S. Augustine in this place afterward you shall heare more of him concerning his opinion of the knowledge that Saints haue of our affaires The third reason of M. PERKINS No Creature Saint or Angell can be a Mediatour for vs to God sauing Christ alone for in a true Mediatour there must be three thinges First that the word of God must reueale and propound him vnto the Church Surely I should thinke that he must first be a perfect Mediatour before he be propounded for such a one Secondly a Mediatour must be perfectly just so as no sinne be found in him at all Such be all Saints in heauen Thirdly a Mediatour must be a propitiator that is he must bring to God some thing that may appease and satisfie his wrath for our sinnes so did Moyses vvhen he appeased Gods wrath justly kindled against the sinnes of the Israelites in the wildernesse thus might a man quickly answere M. PER. argument of his Mediatour But to explicate this matter more clearely and particularly I say that a Mediatour may be taken two waies First he may be called a Mediatour that doth in any sort imploy himself betweene two parties to agree them vvhether it be by perswasion or intreaty vvhether by letter or word of mouth and so is it commonly taken and that according vnto the proper signification of the word Secondly a Mediatour may be taken in an other sence not for euery one that vseth meanes of attonement but for him only that to make the agreement betweene the parties is content to pay the debt himselfe and to satisfie for al other damages and detrimentes and in this sence doth S. Paul say 1. Tim. 2. vers 5. That we haue one Mediatour the man IESVS Christ who gaue himselfe a redemption for all Note the latter vvordes and you shall see this my distinction of Mediatour to be gathered out of the Apostles owne wordes For saith he we haue one Mediatour that gaue himselfe a redemption for all that is that tooke the debts of all our sinnes vpon his owne shoulders and satisfied fully for all see here expressed the second kinde of Mediatour Nowe in the beginning of the Chapter he desireth that intercessions and prayers be made of the Christians for all men
thereunto requested Wherefore saieth M. PERKINS secondly there is a great difference betweene requesting one to pray for vs and by inuocation to request them that are absent for this is a worshippe that is giuen to them and a power to heare and helpe all that call vpon them Reply First that by inuocation we may pray vnto men S. Augustine teacheth directly grounding himselfe vpon the expresse text of Scripture Locut in Gen. 200. Gen. 48. vers 15. where Iacob commandeth that his name and the name of his fore-fathers be inuocated vpon of the children of Israel And vvhat is inuocation in English but the calling vpon one vvhich is as lawfull as the praying vnto him That we doe them an honour and worship thereby I grant and say that the Saints being better then the liuing are better worthy of that worship then the liuing Further that we assigne them a power to heare them that be absent more then the liuing can doe it is no maruaile for the perfection of their heauenly state requireth that prerogatiue as I haue more then once declared But because this point of their knowledge breedeth the greatest doubt of praying vnto the Saints let S. Augustine a most juditious Doctor and one that was not partiall in that matter deliuering his sentence grounded also vpon holy Scripture be hearkened vnto and followed he treating of the happynesse of Saints in heauen hath these vvordes Lib. 22. de ciuit 29. If the Prophet Helizeus being absent in body did see his seruant Giësy receiuing the gifts which Naaman the Syrian gaue him c. how much more in that spirituall body shall Saints see all thinges not only if they shut their eyes but also from whence they be in body absent this he confirmeth by that sentence of the Apostle 1. Cor. 13. ver 9.10 We knowe in part and in part doe we prophesie but when that shall come which is perfect then shall that be made voide which is in part c. Hence thus reasoneth S. Augustine If the knowledge of this life in such as the Prophets and Apostles were be no more in comparison of the Saints knowledge in heauen then is a little childe compared to a man and this which is in part to that which is perfect then surely if Helizeus and other Prophets did see thinges done farre distant from them yea thinges that were to be done many hundred yeares after their times they being without doubt indued with this admirable knowledge from God howe much abundantly shall all they in heauen enjoy this gift when their bodies shall not hinder them yea they shall not neede bodylie eyes to see thinges absent but with the hart or spirit they shall be present to them 4. Reg. 5. vers 26. as Helizeus was who said was not my hart present when the man returned from his chariot to meete thee Can any thing be more euident or more soundly proued then that the Saints in heauen haue great preheminence aboue all that liued vpon the earth to see and knowe thinges absent and farre distant from them which the same father proueth also by most euident experience in the fifteenth and sixteenth Chapters of his booke intituled de cura pro mortuis agenda And that you may perceiue that that is not the opinion of S. Augustine alone I will joyne the testimonies of three or foure other Fathers with him S. Cyril Patriarke of Hierusalem saith Euen as S. Peter did question Ananias Catach 16 Act. 5. willing him to tell whether he had sold his ground for so much so did the Prophet Helizeus though he were not ignorant of it aske his seruant Giësy whether he had not receiued money of Naaman the Syrian for saith he nothing done euen in the darke is hidden from the Saints S. Basil writeth thus Let a Virgin first of all feare her owne conscience L. de Virginitate and if shee be neuer so solitary yet hath shee her Angell guardian present whose sight shee must not contemne specially when as they haue Angels as it were patterns of virginity but before all Angels let her respect and reuerence her spouse Christ who is present euery where And why did I speake of an Angell for shee hath an innumerable company of Angels present and with them the holy spirits or soules of the Fathers for there is none of these who doth not see all thinges euery where not truly beholding them with corporall eyes but by a spirituall sight pearcing vnto the knowledge of all thinges The same doth S. Athanasius that famous ancient Doctor resolue in his 32. question Quaest 32. See S. Augustine also lib. 20. of the Citty of God the 22. Chapter Teaching that the Saints in heauen doe knowe in particular what is done among the damned in hell And S. Hierome doth proue against Vigilantius that The Saints who followe the Lambe whither soeuer he goeth be excluded from no place and scorneth that dreaming Heretike for imagining that vnlesse the soules of the Martirs did lye houering about their shrines they could not heare their prayers that went thither to pray affirming him therefore to be a monster worthy to be banished into the vttermost câ—asts of the earth Encherines a most holy and learned Arch-bishop of Lyons all most 1200. yeares since confirmeth the same grounding his discourse vpon the same texts of Scripture that S. Augustine did saying If the Prophet Helizeus absent in body did see his seruant Giësy taking gifts howe much more shall Saints in that spirituall body see all thinges not only if they shut their eyes but also from whence they are in body absent For then shall be that perfection of which the Apostle speaketh in part we knowe and in part doe we prophesie 1. Cor. 13. but when that shall come which is perfect it shall be voyded which is in part therefore when that shall come which is perfect and this corruptible body shall no longer cumber the soule but it shall haue a glorious body which shall nothing hinder it shall the Saints then neede the helpe of bodylie eyes to see such thinges which Helizeus absent needed not to behold his seruant The testimonies of so many vvorthy Fathers will I hope suffice to perswade any reasonable man that the Saints in heauen doe very well heare our prayers To these I will joyne that which M. PER. maketh our second objection because it doth fortifie the same Luc. 16. vers 24. Abraham not then in possession of heauenly knowledge after our doctrine but in heauen as the Protestants thinke did heare Diues from hell vvhich is further off from heauen then the face of the earth which we inhabite and therefore more easily might he haue heard any liuing body praying vnto him then he did that rich glutton out of hell M. PERKINS answereth That this is a parable and out of a parable nothing can be gathered but that which is agreable vnto the intent
the chiefest Bishops and Doctors aswell for their Godlynesse of life as for their knowledge in holy Scriptures who were also chosen by the holy Ghost to gouerne instruct and teach the principal Churches in both Europe Africke and Asia and that in or about the most flourishing state thereof for all of them sauing S. Gregory the great and venerable Bede liued within 400. and some within 200. yeares of Christ Whither I say these most sound testimonies of so many sacred and worthy personages be not sufficient to perswade any reasonableman that praying to the Saints in heauen is both agreable to Gods vvord which no man in these dayes vnderstandeth halfe so well as the worst of any of them did and also very profitable for vs. Yet for the further assurance of this important matter I wil adde one miracle which I touched before wrought in confirmation of it so that he that will not beleeue this shall be conuinced not to beleeue God himselfe witnessing of it In the coasts of Thelousae in France Ex lib. 3. vitae S. Bernardi cap. 5. about 400. yeares past one Henry an Apostata and wicked fellowe beganne to cry out against praying for the dead and praying to Saints and pilgrimages and some other points of the Catholike doctrine the fame of S. Bernards holynesse and learning being then very great he was sent for by the Popes Legate to come thither to stay the people from following that lewde companion who on a day after he had preached at a towne called Sarlate blessed some loaues of bread and said This shall be a certayne proofe that our doctrine is true and theirs false if those that be sicke by tasting of this holy bread be cured of their diseases There stood by among others the Bishop of Charters who fearing what might followe added if they taste of it with faith Nay said the holy Father Barnard nothing doubting of Gods power I say not so but he that shall taste of it shall be truly cured that they may knowe vs to be true men and the true messengers of God then a great multitude tasting of it were according to his word perfectly healed of what disease soeuer they had What can be more euident or better assured then that praying to Saints is the truth of God seing that it pleased God to confirme it in such sort by the miraculous curing of so many people M. PERKINS for an vpshot saith that he finally dissenteth from the Catholikes because they are not content to pray to Saints but say further that God through their merits in heauen doth bestowe many benefits vpon vs on earth I would he agreed with vs in the two former points we should quickly be at accord in this for the good-man is fouly mistaken if he thinke that vve affirme the Saints after they be come to heauen to merit a newe there for we hold that none after their death can merit any more but doe then receiue according vnto their former merits either saluation or damnation but we neuerthelesse say that God in respect of their former merits gotten in this life doth for their sakes bestowe many benefits vpon vs and this doth M. PER. himselfe confirme in plaine wordes In this question when he graunteth pressed thereto by the euidence of Gods word that men vpon earth haue helpe and benefit by the faith and piety which the Saints departed shewed when they were in this life for saith he further God shewed mercy on them that keepe his commandements to a thousand generations True it is that this their faith and piety he would not haue to be called merits but vve with that most honourable Father S. Ambrose doe say Apud Deum Lib. 5. super LucaÌ„ seruus interueniendi meritum jus habet impetrandi with God a seruant of his hath both the merit to be an intercessour and the right to obtayne his suite see more of merits in that question Here M. PER. addeth against himselfe That the Saints in heauen haue receiued the full reward of all their merits and therefore there is nothing further that they can merit Here we haue first that the Saints had merits which he was wont to deny flatly againe how doth God hauing fully rewarded their former faith and piety at their entrance into heauen afterward for their sakes shew mercy to thousands which he confesseth himselfe wherefore he is aswell bound to answere this as we are it bearing as strongly against his owne doctrine as it doth against ours To saue him a labour I answere in a word that it is one part of the reward of a faithful seruant to be alwayes after not deseruing the contrary in his Masters fauour and so gratious with him that he may intreate any reasonable matâ—â—r at his handes so are the Saints vvith God vvho can neuer be wearyed with their suites so long as they all doe but tend vnto his owne honour and the saluation of his poore creatures and as we both agreed vpon before Their faith piety and charity whiles they liued did and doth still moue and cause God to shewe mercy vnto thousands vpon earth for their sakes though their merits were before most abundantly rewarded let this suffice for this question OF IMPLICITE OR INFOLDED FAITH M. PERKINS Page 266. THis question is handled for two causes as he saith pag. 274. first to rectifie the conscience of the weaker sort of his disciples secondly to rectifie their Catechismes which doe as he censureth require too full an assurance of saluation in all men It being then for the instruction of his ovvne deceiued flocke and not much appertayning to vs I will post it ouer lightly He teacheth a twofold implicity of faith first that faithfull men may be ignorant at the beginning of many articles of faith and learne them afterwardes It was so in deede in Christes time because he taught them not all a once but since the establishment of the Gospell it is necessary that euery one beleeue all the articles of the Apostles Creede the true doctrine of the Sacraments and such other necessary heades of the Christian religion other points of faith may be learned in time according vnto the capacity of the persons The second fold of his faith is that many of his deceiued disciples haue not at their conuersion and in time of temptation a full assurance of their saluation which notwithstanding will serue the turne then if they desire to haue a full assurance and labour afterward to attayne vnto it which he speaketh to the comfort of their consciences that cannot perswade themselues so assuredly that their sinnes are pardoned them This presumptious doctrine of full assurance of saluation I haue in a seueral question before confuted therefore I say only here that no Christian is bound to haue any such absolute assurance of his owne saluation but that he must according to the Apostles rule worke his saluation with trembling and feare Ad Philip. 2.
former offences Neyther can a man that is dead alter his estate but must expect judgement according to his former deserts Now if he haue vpon the true foundation builded wood hay and stubble then he must passe through the fire marry by the helpe of good prayers almes and principally by the Sacrifice of the Masse he may haue his paines in that purging fire remitted or much eased as you haue heard before out of S. Augustine Hom. 41. in 1. ad Corinth And the same teacheth S. Chrysostome saying The dead are holpen not by their friendes weeping but by their prayers supplications and almes And this is all in effect which M. PERKINS disputeth against Purgatory Secondly saith he we differ from them touching the meanes of Purgatory They say that men are purged by suffering of paines in Purgatory whereby they satisfie for their veniall sinnes and for the temporall punishment of their mortall sinnes We teach the contrary holding that nothing can free vs from the least punishment of the smallest sinne but the sufferinges of Christ Indeede they say that our sufferinges in themselues considered doe not purge and satisfie but as they are made meritorious by the sufferings of Christ But to this I oppose one text of Scripture Hebr. 1. vers 3. Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe where the last clause cuts the throate of all humane satisfactions and merits and it giueth vs to vnderstand that whatsoeuer purgeth vs from our sinnes is not to be found in vs but in Christ alone To batter this his only fortresse his owne wordes in the beginning of the same Chapter are very sufficient for there he plainely teacheth That by afflictions which men suffer in this world they are clensed from their corruption as gold is from the drosse by fire If our owne suffering purge vs from sinne as he confesseth before howe then can it be true that that vvhich purgeth vs from our sinnes is not in vs but in Christ alone Againe it is but a diuers reading in the Greeke text that hath those wordes by himselfe for they are not in the Latin translation But admitting them for currant the sence is most easie and nothing against eyther Purgatory or humane satisfactions for the Apostle meaneth no other thing thereby then that he expresseth in the 9. Chapter following to wit That Christ not by the bloud of Calues or Goates but by his owne bloud purged vs from our sinnes and wrought our redemption in such sort as in the question of satisfaction hath beene declared at large Here I say briefly that Christ appeased his Fathers wrath towardes all such as shal be made pertakers of his merits defaced the sinne it selfe and paide the eternall punishment due vnto their sinnes but left a temporall paine to be endured of the offendour for euery such sinne pardoned eyther in this world or in the next both because reason requireth that he vvho falleth after that he was once freely pardoned as vve were all in baptisme should not the second time be so easilie admitted into Gods grace as that he should not himselfe feele some smart for his offence Againe we being members of Christs body meete it is that we suffer with him Rom. 8. Col. 1 24. if we will raigne with him as the Apostle teacheth vvho also was so bold as to say that he in his body accomplished those thinges that wanted to the passions of Christ. To this place M. PER. referreth prayer for the dead of which he propoundeth three conclusions two affirmatiue and one negatiue but proueth nothing The first conclusion We hold that Christian charity must extend it selfe to them that be dead to wit in honest buriall of them in preseruing their good names and in reliefe of their posterity The second conclusion Further we pray in generall for the faithfull departed that God would hasten their joyfull resurrection The third conclusion To pray for particular men departed and to pray for their deliuerance out of Purgatory we thinke it vnlawfull because we haue neither promise nor commandement so to doe and so endeth he the question of Purgatory not propounding one argument in fauour of our party His reason of the necessity of a promise and commandement to pray for any thing before we pray for it I haue in the question of praying to Saints confuted at large and therefore omit it here and will furnish this place vvith some arguments for the proofe of Purgatory And though M. PER. blushed not to say that it hath no warrant in the word of God yet he hath or might haue seene in Cardinall Bellarmine Tom. 1. controuer 6. cap. 3. 4. little lesse then 20. textes of holy Scripture vsed by the auncient Doctors to confirme the doctrine of Purgatory I will make choise of some fewe of them and because Purgatory and prayer for the dead be so closely lincked together that the one doth necessarily followe the other I will joyne them both togither And gentle Reader remember here that which hath beene before rehearsed out of S. Augustine that there be some who die in so perfect an estate that they are carryed presently to heauen as all Innocents and Martirs and such other holy personages who commit fewe offences and yet doe leade a very austere life Others there be too too many vvho both liue and die wickedly such are also straight after their death plunged into the flames of hell fire Nowe There is a third sort of men who liue reasonable honestly at least doe die very penitently these only goe to Purgatory there to doe satisfaction for their former offences before they can be admitted into the joyes of heauen nowe to our proofes First 2. Machabaeor 12. Iudas Machabeus that most valiant Captayne of the people of God with all his armie prayed vnto God to pardon the offence of them that were slaine * Vers 42. and afterward making a generall collection among them sent 12000. groates to Hierusalem that sacrifice might there be offered for the offence of the departed the holy Ghost in the text witnessing it To be a holy and holesome cogitation to pray for the dead that they may be loosed and deliuered from their sinnes This text is so euident for prayer for the dead that it can haue no other answere then that which Heretikes flie vnto in their most desperate plunges to vvit to denie the whole booke to be Canonicall Scripture Vpon which point because it belongeth to another place I wil not dwel yet vvill I note by the vvay that S. Augustine in expresse tearmes doth declare 18. Ciuit. cap. 36. that the Church of God in his time did take it for Canonicall Scripture although the Iewes did not so The Protestants I knowe vvell cauill at many thinges in those bookes so might they that were disposed to wrangle against the best Hystories in the Bible But one of milder temper may perhaps demand howe those bookes that were at the first
Secondly they make him much inferiour vnto the other persons for they teach in their French Catechismes that the Father alone is to be adored in the name of the Sonne In cap. 6. 17. Isa in 16. Marc. And Caluin against Gentil saith that the title of creatour belongeth only to the Father and else where that the Father is the first degree cause of life and the Sonne the second And that the In 26. Math. v. 64. Father holdeth the first ranke of honour and gouernement and the Sonne the second where the holy Ghost is either quite excluded from part with the Father and the Sonne or at most must be content with the third degree of honour 9. I beleeue the holy Catholike Church the communion of Saints First where as there is but one Catholike Church one as the Councell of Nice expresly defineth following sundry textes of the word of God they commonly teach that there be two Churches one inuisible of the elect another visible of both good and bad Secondly they imagine it to be holy holy by the imputation of Christes holinesse to the elected Bretheren and not by the infusion of the holy Ghost into the hartes of all the faithfull Thirdly they cannot abide the name Catholike in the true sence of it Catholike that is they wil not beleeue the true Church to haue beene alwaies visibly extant since the Apostles time and to haue bin generally spread into all Countries otherwise they must needes forsake their owne Church which began with Friar Luther and is not receiued generally in the greatest part of the Christian world Finally they beleeue no Church no not their owne in all points of faith but hold that the true Church may erre in some principall points of faith Howe then can any man safely relie his saluation vpon the credite of such an vncertaine ground erring guide may they not then as well say that they doe not beleeue the one Catholike Church because they doe as well not beleeue it as beleeue it And as for the communion of Saints their learned masters doe commonly cassier it out of the Creede and that not without cause For by the Saints vnderstanding as the Apostles did al good Christians whither aliue or departed this world they that deny praier to Saints and for the soules in Purgatory haue reason to reject the common society entercourse that is betweene the Saints and the mutuall honour and help which such good Christian soules doe yeeld and afford one to another 10. The forgiuenesse of sinnes It is not easily to find what is their setled opinion touching the forgiuenes of originall sinne in Infants Some attribute it to Baptisme but that cannot stand with their common doctrine that Sacraments haue no vertue in them to remit sinnes or to giue grace Others say that God without any meanes doth then when they be baptised of himselfe immediately justifie them but that cannot stand in their owne doctrine because Infants want the instrumēt of faith to lay hold on that justice then offered by God and therefore cannot being so yonge take it vnto them Others will haue Infants sanctified in their mothers wombe by vertue of a couenant which they suppose God to haue made with old father Abraham and all his faithfull seruants that forsooth their seede shall be holy But this is most phantastical and contrary to the Scriptures and daily experience for Isaac was the sonne of promise and yet Esau his sonne was a reprobate Dauides father was a Godly Israelite and yet Dauid affirmeth Psal 50. that he himselfe was conceiued in iniquities and we may see whole Countries nowe turned Turkes whose ancestors were good Christians therefore not all the soules of the faithfull are sanctified in their mothers wombes Secondly how euil soeuer they agree about the remission of sinne yet there is a perfect consent among them that such relikes of originall sinne remaine in euery man baptised and sanctified that it infecteth all and euery worke he doth with deadly sinne yea that which remaineth is properly sinne in it selfe though it be not imputed to the party so that sinne is alwaies in them though their sinnes be neuer so well forgiuen And as for the Sacrament of Penance by which we hold al sinnes committed after Baptisme to be forgiuen they doe renounce the benefit of it and are at vtter defiance with it 11. The resurrection of the bodies Whether Farel the first Apostle of the Geneuian Gospel doubted thereof or no let his successor Caluin tell you who answereth Farels letter thus Episto ad Farellum That the resurrection of this our flesh doth seeme to thee incredible no meruaile c. Againe many of them teach that Christ tooke not his bloud againe which he shed vpon the crosse yea some of them are so gracelesse as to say that his pretious bloud wherewith we were redeemed Vide Conradum li. 1. art 20. rotted away on the earth 1600. yeares agoe If then it be not necessary to a true resurrection to rise againe with the same bloud why is it necessary to rise againe with the same bones and flesh the one being as perfect a part of a mans body as the other 12. Life euerlasting First Captaine Caluin holdeth it for very certaine that no soule doth enter into the joyes of heauen wherein consisteth life euerlasting vntill the day of doome 3. Institu 25. sess 6. These be his wordes the soules of the Godly hauing ended the labour of this war-fare doe goe into a blessed rest where they expect the enjoying of the promised glory And that all thinges are holden in suspence vntill Christ the redeemer appeare whose opinion is yet better then was his predecessor Luthers For he teacheth in many places that the soules of the Godly departing from their bodies Enarra in Gen. c. 26. In Ecclesi c. 9. v. 10. haue no sence at all but doe lie fast a sleepe vntill the latter day Take this one for a tast Another place to proue that the dead feele or vnderstand nothing wherefore Salomon thought the dead to be wholy a sleepe and to perceiue nothing at all And againe the sleepe of the soule in the life to come is more profound then in this life And Luther with this one position of his as that famous historiographer Iohn Sleidan recordeth ouerthrewe two points of Popery Li. 9. hist to wit praying to Saintes for they are so fast a sleepe that they cannot heare vs and praying for the dead For they in Purgatory slept also so soundly that they felt no paines A meete foundation surely to build such false doctrine vpon In 20. Luc hom 35. But Brentius is most plaine in this matter who ingeniously confesseth that albeit there were not many among them that did professe publikely the soules to die with the body yet the most vncleane life which the greatest part of their followers did lead doth clearely shewe that in their hartes they thinke no life to be