why then thus they take it It is his office it will be performed by him at the Resurrection and day of Doome Moses then will stand vp and accuse you Any way take it it cannot conclude that Saints in Heauen do knowe by any ordinary course what passeth continually vpon earth What Saints are said to know and what not how many waies to what purposes and ends I could let the Reader see and gagge vp this gabbler for euer but I haue don it already elsewhere in that point to which this tendeth of Inuocation of which notwithstanding I must say som what heere for it followeth next in order XXIX That they pray not for vs. WEE say not so You either mistake vs or bely vs. The Saints pray for vs all in generall all Saints for vs or euery Saint for vs that is for the Church militant on earth You shall finde if you enquire that the Caluinists themselues as you call them or Puritans hold this I adde The Saints pray for vs in particular some particular Saint for some particular man in some speciall cause some time And to come more particularly to it The Question is not whether Saints departed doe pray vnto God that is confessed on both sides all Saints doe by prayer intercession supplication as well as thanksgiuing It is confessed they pray for others and for themselues too by all but this addle-pate who prates he knoweth not what and measureth other mens senses by his owne senslesnesse It is euident they doe Apocal. 6. 10. How long O Lord holy and true doest thou not iudge and auenge our bloud on them that dwell vpon the earth The fellow neuer heard that the soules of the Righteous pray for their consummation in glory such an infant is hee in these speculations which are so common Again it is not denied they pray for vs in regard of that Communion of Saints whereof this holy performance is a principall and main part for vs in generall out of fellow-feeling and commiseration of our miseries which themselues haue tasted in this valley of tears for their friends in particular whom they remember whose state they recommend vnto God in praier they hauing lost no endowment in their Soule in Glory which did accrue vnto them vpon Earth And as for Loue and Charity vnto their brethren which makes them so forward to do them good that is exceedingly enlarged there Monica Saint Augustine's Mother for instance departing this life before her Sonne I make no doubt being seateâ— in those Heauenly Palaces might and did remember her sonne on earth recommend his estate vnto our blessed Sauiour pray for him in generall his good Constancy Perseuerance and Confirmation in the course of his Christian Profession and Priestly Function and not onely so but might remember him in some particular occasions occurrences and actions with which in her life-time she was acquainted And yet Saint Augustine had nor could haue any warranâ— at all to pray vnto her for her remembrance of him or assistance in things that fell out afterwards after her death because there was not nor yet could bee any ordinary course certain whereby hee might acquaint her with his particulars after her death which is all in all for inuocation To come home to the point It should not be put as heer it is that they pray for vs for without question they doo and it is confessed by all Protestants that they doo pray for vs in generall all without limitation in particular in some cases But it should haue been specified when for what by what meanes and how they doo and doo not pray for vs but of these and such like necessary Inferences as these this Dreamer thought not or else would take no notice So hard a thing is it to knowe or set down the state of a Controuersie right so vnwilling at least men are to come to tearms of commerce and some agreement who minde nothing but faction and disturbance This being premised we proceed to see how contrary the Doctrine of the Protestants is vnto their owne Bible Apoc. 5. 8. our Bibles read thus The 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb hauing euery one of them Harps and golden Vials full of Odors which are the Praiers of Saints Heer 24 Elders are represented but in a vision Then who told this Smatterer in diuinity who they were It is exprest that these Odors were the Prayers of Saints but is it expressed who they were that presented them or what Prayers or what Saints The Praiers of Saints on Earth But then except a man be a Saint on Earth Intercession vnto Mediation of Saints in Heauen will doo him no good at all Presented by Saints in Heauen but Quo warranto For not because this vision was in Heauen represented therefore the Action and Actors intended were also heauenly and the thing represented no where done but there Such obscure Prophesies not yet vnderstood that you can say by any are neuer assumed for Proofs in point of Controuersie but of men that vphold a desperate forlorn cause for want of cleerer Proofs For the Text Irenaeus inclineth to take it of those Prayers which the Church of GOD offreth vpon Earth lib. 4. cap. 33 Quoniam ergo Nomen Filij proprium Patris est in Deo omnipotenti per Iesum Christum offert Ecclesia bene ait secundum vtraque in omni loco incensum offertur Nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohannes in Apocalypsi Orationes ait esse Sanctorum which is again repeated by that mvsticall Diuine Apocal. 8. And the smoke of the incense which are the Prayers of Saints went vp from the hand of the Angell before God No more is collected or can bee from these Texts but this that Prayer is compared to Incense according vnto that in the Psalm Let their Praier bee set forth in thy sight like incense and let the lifting-vp of their hands bee as the euening sacrifice But concluded it cannot be from these mysticall Visions that these Saints prayed vnto that Angell that the 24 Elders represented the Angels that those Praiers were addressed from men vpon Earth that the Vision expressed a thing ordinary and done that any man of discretion or vnderstanding in Diuinity or common reason would haue gone in hand to haue prooued a thing controuerted and obscure by that which is much more obscure as this Fellow doth In Macchab. 2. 15. 14. thus we read This is a louer of the Brethren who prayeth much for the people and for the holy City to wit Ieremias the Prophet and from thence the conclusion is Therefore they pray for vs. To weet you should haue added the Prophets or the Iewes Indeed in a Dream worthy no doubt to be beleeued verse 11. For so Iudas dreamed and you beleeue it and draw vs a Conclusion from your Dream thus Therefore they Ieremy and Onias if you will pray for vs In a Dream too So the Doctrine
nature of his greatnesse Hic Rhodus hic saltus This is that you should haue expressed out of our Bibles or the Fathers In setting out his greatnesse otherwise you doe but trifle Haue it hee must first and then practise it Happely the execution will bound it out Let vs see how farre Luke 22. 32. And when thou art conuerted strengthen thy Brethren You reade you say confirme In good time reade so still Strengthen and confirme no great ods in either if it be shewed what his greatnesse was and yet strengthen is more than to confirme the Originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to stay and hold vp from falling to the purpose and present case of Peter who was to fall and foulely in denying Christ Strengthen or confirme must needes imply execution of greatnesse for to confirme and strengthen what is it but to practise and execute his greatnesse ouer them A poore practise and sorry greatnesse not of soueraigntie to which you driue but of superintendency at most in his Pastorall charge to plant and to water to doe no more It is true He that doth strengthen and confirme is greater than hee that is confirmed but in that act onely of confirming not in vniuersall iurisdiction I hope Your ghostly Father if you were a Potentate and at poynt to dye as his duetie is and office confirmeth you in your Faith Because hee confirmeth you and in that hee confirmeth you hee is your better will you take him for your Lord and Soueraigne therefore Paul strengthened Peter when he went not aright to the Gospel What was then become of Peters headship can your sheepes-head tell To confirme in faith requireth nor implyeth no supremacy in power No other confirmation is intended there Goe cast your Cap then at Peters Primacy from confirming his Brethren See more proofe of your folly Mark 3. 16. Where Saint Peter in the list of the Apostles is onely named first which doth not necessarily inferre hee was the chiefe but wee graunt him a chiefe a prime a first place Wee acknowledge him the greatest amongst the Apostles in many respects And what of this No more but this First you belye vs in your position Secondly you cannot claime your Popes Monarchie from any greatnesse that Saint Peter had Act. 1. 1◠not the 13. Hee speaketh first proposeth a case Will Pope Vrban be contented to doe no more will he callenge no other royalty take it vse it let him goe as farre as euer Saint Peter went as a Bishop and not as an Apostle and wee will goe along with him Therefore in conclusion your texts of Scripture are not to any purpose at all to proue Peters Primacy but you a poppet Much lesse your Fathers see them who list for I haue seene them more times than I haue fingers and toes and could neuer see any such regality in them Theophilact calleth him Prince of the Disciples and so doe I as Aristotle Prince of the Phylosophers and Virgil Prince of Poets who had no commaund for al that either ouer Poets or Phylosophers Eusebius in his Chronicle calleth Saint Peter the first Bishop of Christians Admit hee doe What then First is in respect of time of place order and authoritie Eusebius expresseth not how he meaneth first nay doth hee call him first at all in any sense In my Eusebius I finde no such matter What is in yours I cannot tell I reade but this Petrus Apostolus cum primus Antiochenam Ecclesiam fundasset Romam mittitur vbi Euangelium praedicans xxv annis eiusdem vrbis Episcopus perseuerat Where Romam mittitur is not much for his greatnesse or that principality you giue vnto him and preaching the Gospell is lesse than that Cyril of Hierusalem calleth him Prince and most excellent of the Apostles I adde the Greeke Text is more for your aduantage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that standeth before and is head ouer the Apostles And againe in his xi Catech which belike you neuer read no more I guesse did you the other but tooke it vp on credit by reta 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Peter Prince as you call him of the Apostles a principall Preacher of the Church Titles of honour Quis negat of great honour I adde such as neuer was any like vnto it but honour and aduancement as it is confined so is it designed how farre whereto in what sense He stood first in ranke hee was chiefe among so was Ioab ouer 30. but not King vpon them or Lord ouer them There is an headship which will not reach that illimited power giuen to the Pope Our Lord Vice-God vpon earth Saint Chrysostome hom 55. in Math. neither calleth him Pastor nor head of the Church Some well-willer of the cause added the words In Greeke wee haue but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a man that was a Fisher But admit both Pastor and Caput too what is it to purpose Wee deny no titles giuen vnto him wee deny your inferences vpon those titles If you will thanke me for it I will helpe you to tenne times as many moe titles as you haue collected as transcendant as any of these and when I haue done to as large and ample giuen to Saint Paul Doe you shew mee but one place of any one Father that giueth him that power you challenge to the Pope I except not Leo nor yet Gregorie and I will subscribe viz. for vniuersalitie of iurisdiction infallibilitie of iudgement and power direct or indirect ouer Kings and Kingdomes This is your Helena First chiefe great or greatest will not content you nor satisfie ambition now in the russe Vndertake this trifle not out the time in pleading so idlely and vainely for Saint Peters prerogatiues which wee the Church of England deny not VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed ANd yet Saint Peter denied Christ Dare you deny that Belike in your opinion and new diuinitie a man may deny Christ and his faith not fayle Turne Turke and his faith not faile onely turne Protestant and his faith faileth But wee must hold it howsoeuer for it is contrary to our owne Bible Luke 22. 3. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Your Proselites may know you are an Empostor That propose it in these words so opposite to Scripture and euent That leaue it so suspence without distinction Saint Peters faith fayled after this very prayer and assurance and yet Christ obtained what hee did pray for God heard him euer how can you reconcile this Your Masters consider Saint Peter two wayes euen in this prayer made by our Sauiour for him as a priuate man as a publique person or as they loue to speake Head of the Church As a priuate person Christ did pray for him that though his faith fell totally for a time it yet might not faile eternally and for euer as Iudas failed and fell and hee was heard in that he prayed for Peter denied but repented hee
is a Dream the proof a Dream a Dreamer related it a Dreamer recorded it and a Dreamer doth tell beleeue it So Qui amant ipsi sibi somnia fingunt men are apt to beleeue Dreams when the Dream is for their purpose Admit it no Dream let it be a story and res gesta Ieremy might wel pray for them in generall as hauing not forgot them in Heauen whom he did know vpon earth In some particular he might eyther by extraordinary relation or Diuine Reuelation or howsoeuer and yet you be farre enough from building your imagined deuice from thence that therefore we may pray vnto them if yet you were able to make it good how Ieremy then in Limbo for this was before Christ harrowed hell and therefore farre enough from God could pray for the Iewes as he is said who might as soone and as wel pray for themselues as he might and were in possibility to be heard as soone as he For the Text of Ier. 15. 1. Though Moses and Samuel stood before mee yet my minde could not bee towards this people I haue acquainted you with what I think thereof elsewhere You adde out of Bellarmine touching Hierom in his Comment vpon that place and Saint Gregory 9. of his Morals 12. that they gather how Moses and Samuel after their death both could and did sometimes pray for the same people Bellarmine addeth Chrysostome How is hee omitted Did you forget him for you looked vpon all alike secure what any of them or all of them said more then was tendred to your hands First Hierome in his Comment saith thus nor more nor lesse Hos enim legimus irae Domini pro populo restitisse et iam impendeniem auertisse sententiam Etsi inquit illi steterint vel in conspectu meo vel contra me quorum vni dixit Deus Dimitte me et percutiam populum istum tamen non exaudiam quoniam consummata sunt scelera populi delinquentis For wee reade that these men in the peoples case and their defence opposed against the wrath of God and put by the sentence ready to bee put into execution Although saith hee that these men shall stand eyther in my presence or against me vnto one of which God sometime said Let me alone and I will smite this people yet I will not heare because the sinnes of this wicked people are consummate Now from which of these words doth your wisdome collect that Hierome made his conclusion that Moses and Samuel beeing both dead could yet and also did pray for that people It is to bee gathered they did it sometime Sometime in their life they did it it may bee gathered because it is cleere But this beeing dead is a glosse of your owne an addition to Hierom that corrupteth Hierome It dropt from your pen hee hath it not That which is to bee collected from thence is If Moses and Samuel who liuing appeased Gods wrath to the people were now againe aliue and should pray for this people as sometime they did yet I would not bee intreated now of them as I was then nor giue way to their petitions as then I did because now The iniquity of the Ammonite is fully ripe the sinnes of this people are now consummate which then were but growing in the blade Your Horse or your Asse though like your selfe in vnderstanding would not so conclude if as Balaam's Asse once did the poore beast could speake as worthily you doe and like your selfe If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. You would haue said bray that is fitter for such an Animal as you Saint Gregory saith lesse Moral 9. 12. For he but onely repeateth the Text of Ieremie and enquireth why the Prophet did rather insist vpon Moses and Samuel then any other And his answere thereto is Because they especially prayed for their persecutors This is all that I can finde no prouender for your Asse or Oxe if you can meet with any more let me knowe it and you shall vnderstand my minde thereof onely this almost forgotten in him though I put it home to you before not much to your purpose noâ— thank-worthy that Saint Gregory did not dreame as Iudas Macchabeus did of any Intercession by dead men but concâ—iued it thus that if they were then liuing they should not preuaile with God as they had done sometimes Quid est ergo in difficultate deprecandi Mosen et Samuel deducere nisi apertius indicare quia eius ira neque illi obsisterent si astarent What meaneth the Prophet to mention such difficultie in obtaining for Moses and Samuel but onely this to make is cleere that euen they should not abide or resist his wrath if they then stood before him as once they did Thirdly Chrysostome yet striketh it further dead against you which maketh me imagine some more aduised who had peraduenture looked on the place left out this testimony though Bellarmine had appealed to him For hee commeth home against you indeed To. 4. pa. 165. of our Eâ—on Edition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Short but sweet and to purpose Therefore if this man were now aliue and should speake thus hee should not for all that preuaile Doe you mark you haue wished vs to note more then once Were hee now liuing Nothing to purpose of hearing in Heauen or vnderstanding so wheresoeuer hee were This Text is for liuing not dead men for their Prayers not Intercession of these in opinion of Chrysostome Baruch 3. 4. thus wee reade O Lord Almighty thou God of Israel heare now the Prayers of the dead Israelites wee reade say you of the dead of Israel Therefore the dead Israelities prayed for the liuing that you had you been efemore Iacob might not absolutely turne foole These dead Israelites must needs then bee in Limbo when they prayed for their brethren Some information there they must needs then haue had by some Currire but who was Hee Qui fas per limen vtrumque solus habet that was so imployed vnto Limbus Patrum For the resolution of your Schooles is if Bellarmine doe not mis-informe vs That because the Saints and holy men who died before Christ came in the flesh did not enter into Heauen did not see God nor could by any ordinary meanes vnderstand the prayers of such as sued vnto them therefore it was not vsed in the old Testament to say Holy Abraham pray for vs but men prayed themselues by themselues vnto God and alleaged the merits of Saints that were already dead that by their merits their prayers might finde accesse Thus that great Vndertaker of all Protestant Aduersaries thereby cutting the throat of Inuocation Aduocation and Intercession in the old Testament putting you off from all your recited Texts at once of Baruch Ieremie Iudas Dream and all And what are you Pumillo to that great man-at-Armes What is your word that we should beleeue you The dead Israelites praied for the liuing You tould vs of Harps but euen
now out of Apoc. 5. 8. You and your Masters agree as well as Harp and Harrow and no better Your self are fitter for an Harrow than a Harp Asinus ad lyram in these controuerted points of piety But touching your dead Israelites Sir of little wit and lesse vnderstanding they were not dead though peraduenture sleeping They slept not then in the dust of the earth beeing gathered vnto their Fathers but dead because like vnto the Dead out of minde cast off cast out of no reputation in the opinion of the world dead Ver. 10. 11. in the same chapt Men waxen old in a strange Countrey accounted with them that go down into the pit as the Prophet expoundeth his owne meaning These were not Ezechias Iosias Dauid Esaias or the rest but Ezechiel Baruch Daniel Sidrach his companions then aliue These dead were liuing and in case to pray and did pray for themselues their wiues and children their Country-men at Babylon in captiuity Wee imagine so and Baruch himself biddeth vs think so Yet note what Theodoret saith to the contrary And so we will for it is worth the noting if hee knew Baruch's minde better than himself Note it we will and subscribe it too if Theodoret interpret this place as you doo for as for Catholiques I haue not enquired how they interpret it I need not it is so palpable I verily suppose you haue pigges in your belly and cry We Catholiques when it is but a Cacolick and a poor one God knoweth your silly selfe interpret the place so But haue you looked vpon Theodoret Are you certain hee interpreteth it so I cannot finde it to note it in him This is all that I can note in no very great Paraphrase neither Verba clarè ostendunt immortalitatem onima and to this Protestants firmly and constantly assent as well as any Papists or Popes either for some of them haue scarce assented thereto though not for this Proof of Theodoret which how clarè it sheweth that I see not Theodoret could not hence note vnto vs the immortality of the soule otherwise than because the dead doo liue which to admit yet is it farre enough from the exposition of Catholiques that imagine Inuocation may bee inferred hence For dead men may pray and yet not for others It is an idle exception If for themselues their glory should not bee compleat For doth this Ignaro imagine their glory is yet compleat no augmentation to accrue vnto it at least accidentall at the Resurrection If he knowe not this the Catholique Cause was very farre forlorne when such Smatterers set pen to paper to propugn it Secondly there are causes more than one of such praier They may well pray for others and yet not bee prayed vnto themselues in regard of generall vnion and knowledge particularly and remembrance extraordinary knowledge and information So this Andabatarian Catholique fighteth with his owne shadow Wee deny it not in these tearms The Saints departed doo pray for vs. The Sun is not so cleer as there is no cleer vnderstanding in him XXX That we may not pray vnto them WHatsouer they doo for vs wee doo not much for them for we say we may not pray vnto them contrary to our own Bibles Beleeue it who list Pray to them if you will we and our people will pray vnto the Lord who is ready willing able to heare vs euery way without such Aduocates or Mediators And where are our Bibles so contrary to vs Nay vnderstand you the resolutions of your owne men Sancti non sunt inuocandi Saints are not to be praied vnto is a Proposition of Father Roberts I grant with limitation thus Not as Authors of diuine blessings or goodnes But what a Buzzard are you in the mean time that leaue such an aduantage to your Aduersary For against this loose Proposition of yours Saints are to bee prayed vnto without his restraint these Scriptures are plain Psalm 83. God giueth grace and glory Psalm 120. I lift vp my eies vnto the hils from whence commeth my help my help commeth onely from the Lord that hath made heauen and earth And that Iames 1. Euery good gift and euery perfect giuing is from aboue descending down from the Father of lights and such like that send vs onely and directly to God in the opinion and vpon the allegation of Bellarmine You cannot answer these Texts of your Bible contrary to your Tenet as you set it down Wee can answer whatsoeuer you bring against as Luk. 16. 24. Father Abraham haue mercy on mee Heere is one Saint prayed vnto First by whom By Diues a firebrand in hell So the Damned are directers of your doctrine no doubt good doctrine so wel grounded Secondly this was no praier vnto Abraham if Bellarmine haue taught vs aright for the Saints of the old Testament saith hee being then in Limbo were not praied vnto as not seeing God but Abraham was a Saint of the old Testament not of the new Thirdly it is a Parable and so not concluding farther than the scope and end which is not this Fourthly Abraham is supposed at least heer to haue bin within hearing Bring the Virgin Mary within my kenning I will say vnto her Sancta Maria or a pro mee Next Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue Heer say you or else you erre is another Saint praied vnto No such matter Sir Gagger gape wider and stare the Text in the face you shall see at last if you haue not lost your wits and eies and all that if any be prayed vnto it is not another but the same Saint Abraham to send Lazarus Diues saith not Saint Lazarus come but Father Abraham send When you call to your Bottle-ale-Hostesse to send her Maid for something you want the Maid must so take it you withall intreat her to go Sure your wits are drowned in Bottle-ale or mured in a Bakers Basket That of Iob 5. 1. for so it is doth not answer our expectation nor your vndertaking You vaunted to confound vs by our owne Bibles and you are fain to go to your Bibles In our Bibles we read Call now if there be any that will answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turn In your Bibles it is And turn to some of the Saints Your fleeing from ours vnto your owne argueth that in your opinion there is difference betwixt the interpretations and so there is for by our interpretation you are gone Eliphas telleth Iob It is in vain to go vnto any of the Saints for there is in them no help at all an Interrogation being equiualent to a Negation Is there any can doo this in effect There is none that can doo it So that you discredit your owne cause that are fain to be recreant in your vndertaking and flee off from our Bibles vnto your owne Bible Thither I need not follow you but I will So little are you to
what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
recouered after his fall and perseuered vnto the end Our Sauiour said not to him thou shalt not deny mee but That thy faith fayle not and that his faith did not eternally fayle it was out of his speciall fauour vnto him and care of him saith Chrysostome hom 83. in Math. This is the prime true and literall meaning of the Text euen in the opinion of your owne Partiaries that Christs prayer was personall for Saint Peter restrained vnto Saint Peter alone which being so first setled and acknowledged Peter may be said in a secondary sense to sustaine the person of the whole Catholique Church in which sense many and they no Protestants doe vnderstand it And so his Faith that is the Faith of the Church fayled not either totally or finally no not in the greatest eclipse that euer was because Christ was euer heard in that which he prayed for and he prayed for the Church The refiners of Popery the quintessense of villany the Iesuites haue inuented a third sense to fit the purpose more than the former This promise was made say they to Peter not personally but as Pope And therein was inferred thereby assurance made that the Pope neuer did neuer should neuer could maintaine decide hold belieue any thing against Faith A thing not heard of but out of such mouthes a late dayes False in euent for their faith hath failed totally finally vtterly for euer False according to themselues and their other resolutions For Peter was not Bishop much lesse Pope when our Sauiour Christ prayed for him insomuch as by inchoation when hee denied Christ saith Bellarmine And good reason for his saying so lest his successours might fall into the same predicament His principality in and ouer the Church was not inuested in him vntill after our Sauiours Resurrection Thus hee de Rom. Pontif. 4. 8. therefore hee did not pray for him as Pope Therefore Bellarmine contradicteth himselfe and is contrary to his companions Therefore this prater gagleth hee knoweth not what against his owne rules and against his Masters As also out of Matth. 16. 18. The gates of Hell shall not preuaile against it It What Saint Peters Faith Was the Church therefore built vpon Saint Peters Faith Take heede of that It is the Church not his Faith nor his Person nor his Papacy But let it for once be his Faith I answere there is a twofold preuayling against First to ouercome So Iosua in fight preuayled against Amalec by the signe of the Crosse rather than the sword Secondly a preuayling against to destroy So did Saul preuaile against the same Amalec The Gates of Hell did not preuayle against Peters Faith to vndoe it For being lapsed hee recouered and mightily preuayled against them They did preuaile against it to ouercome him For he forswore and denyed his Master The Faith of Marcellinus and Liberius fayled but they recouered as Saint Peter did The Faith of Honorius and Iohn 12 fayled happely hee recanted before his death and so his Faith did not fayle finally But Iohn 12. liued and dyed in his Faith that is in his Sinne and so Body and Soule went to the Diuell Saint Peters Faith fayled onely for a time Of this speake the Protestants His Faith fayled Saint Peters faith did not finally or irrecouerably fall Thus intended our Sauiour in that saying I haue prayed that thy Faith fayle not But Sir it mattereth not much what became of his Faith His Person is the thing to be stood vpon his Power Principality Papall Prerogatiues seated therein this I trow is so cleare in holy Scriptures no great neede to fortifie it by or from the Fathers and yet I maruaile why if so cleare there wee haue so few Texts of holy Scriptures for it onely two Texts nay scarcely that For one of these is cleare for another thing And againe whatsoeuer you vaunt of Fathers needelesse to be brought it is more than presumption you had not one Father to fling at this Faith not fayling For when you haue them you spare them not IX That a Woman may be supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all Causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was QVeene Elizabeth was With lye and all No Protestant euer saide so of Queene Elizabeth No Protestant euer thought so of any Woman You shamelesse pennes and brazen faces You haue often vouched Caluin against such Gouernement whom you make the Patriarch fondly of our Profession and yet you impute it to our Doctrine Lyers in this or in that needes Can you of your knowledge say this title was giuen vnto Queene Elizabeth Did shee euer practise it actually or challenge it habituall to her Person or her State And if it had beene challenged or giuen in Her time seeing that it is not at present but disclaimed by him that best may and seeing it dyed if yet it euer liued together with her what meaneth this quarreller to stirre vp a new allayed strife and trouble things setled and well disposed of The truth is Queene Elizabeths stile was no other then than King Iames is now mutatis mutandis Ouer all persons in all Causes not and all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Ciuil in these her Maiesties Realmes and Dominions next vnder God supreame Gouernour Can your small vnderstanding put no difference betwixt Ouer all and In all betwixt Persons and Causes ouer all Persons in all Causes is one thing Ouer all Persons and all Causes is farre another thing Ouer Each or ouer Causes without Persons looketh your way But Causes with Persons ouer the Parties in their proceedings is no such exorbitances no Scripture expresse none inferred against it to any purpose We doe not professe much lesse propose or propugne that Princes are Heads or Gouernours to any such intent as to coyne or set abroad new Formes of Faith to determine what is defide what not as your side belyeth vs and beareth your Proselites in hand we doe Wee giue no such authority to any humane Power They were of you that did it at Trent that cast it vpon your Lord God the Pope He was one of you none of our side Stephen Gardner by name who to flatter the Prince in state and keepe himselfe in those hurring times in his fauour openly auouched as Cardinal Poole relateth That the King might take away the Cup from the Laity Potestas enim summe est penes regem For the King hath supreamest Power Such aphorismes neuer came out of our mouthes We say Princes haue supreame Power in Earth vnder God ouer all Persons in all Causes whatsouer within their Dominions euen in Causes meerely Ecclesiasticall to compell them to doe their duties by the Ciuil Sword Not ouer all Causes to doe as they will to command or change beliefe or Faith Will it rellish better with you in Saint Augustines words Then this is our profession in his words Kings serue God as Kings if in their owne Realmes they command good things not alone which concerne the
likely to see The poore man can afford vs no Fathers heere his reading it seemeth would not reach vnto that and his good Masters were not at hand to help him I could furnish him if hee would thank mee to better purpose then his Scriptures haue but want I suppose he will rather then be beholding to a Protestant To conclude wee will not deny him that Euery man hath his Angell-keeper but within the Church at least not rambling abroad Are they not all of them ministring spirits sent forth to minister To whom where Not to euery man vnder heauen but with restriction Who shall be heyres of saluation In offensiue sort against their foes in defensiue manner for their good Thus the Scriptures speake and no otherwise thus the Fathers taught and no otherwise Not Euery man but Euery Christian man at his Birth or at his Baptisme hath his Guardian Angell deputed to him XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. WIth Ly and all Sir Gagger Not pray for vs Now I pray you who saith so No man will say or think so that beleeueth in his Creed The communion of Saints and can tell what connexion of the two parts of the Church of the Redeemed there is the one militant heere in Earth the other Regnant and Triumphant in Heauen Now a principall part of that Communion and Society which they haue with vs is to recommend our state and necessities vnto God our Father To which end God Almighty hath as wee professe in our Collect vpon Michaelmas Day appointed the Seruice of men and Angels in a wonderfull sort But somewhat there was or the man mistook Their Praying for vs may bee considered two waies either in Generall or in Particular For the peace of Sion the prosperity of Ierusalem the state and condition of the Church militant in earth thus in generall For Manasses in Captiuity Hezechiah beleaguered by Senacherib For this man or that man in particular vpon speciall motiues and occasions and that likewise two waies either ordinarily and of common course or specially by Delegation in extraordinary seruice Now this Proposition Holy Angels pray for vs doth not limit nor explaine the tearmes but is ambiguous as this peddler most an end frameth all in his Pack to calumniate and to deceiue Whether All Angels pray for All men or All for some men or some for all or some for some who can tell that was not of counsell to his pen and purpose As it lyeth lurking in fraudulent tearmes I can answere both waies and contradictory waies First Holy Angels pray not for vs and truly too Nor shall this Goose hiscere against my answere viz. Not euery holy Angell in speciall for euery man in particular Not at all times vpon any or all occasions I can also answer and truly too Holy Angels pray for vs. And so this Gagger may goe shoo the Goose That is It is a principall part of their performance in Heauen as they magnifie their Maker eternally so to recommend vnto Him vncessantly the Estate and good beeing of the Church of the Redeemed as yet in great Tribulations I adde yet further At all times some of them pray for the particular estate of some priuate Men Cities States Societies or Countries And the Holy Angell-keepers for their speciall charges commended vnto their trust by God at sometime some of them for all for some vpon special occasion employment or designation as extraordinarily they may and doe vndertake Now to come home to your loose laxe affirmation Your expresse words in our Bible are not so expresse as to speake to your purpose that of Zachar. 1. 9. 10. runneth thus O Lord of hosts how long wilt thou net haue mercy vpon Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iuda against which thou hast had indignation these 70 yeeres For it followeth not because this one Angell prayed for Ierusalem in Captiuity any Angel doth pray for any or euery man This was extraordinary your supposall must bee ordinary This was occasionall for his employment your Angels must not bee so allotted Happely this was their Angell-Guardian Michael Prince of the Synagogue Pleade thus for Angell-keepers none will gayn-say you They pray for vs no question at all This was in a peculiar case for restoring Ierusalem and Iuda according to promise in appointed time 70 yeeres designed by the Prophets So the question was idle like your selfe Whether this were not a Prayer The question well ordred should haue beene Whether All Angels at all times doe not in particular pray for euery particular man as this Angell heere did for Sion To the former wee answere positiuely Yea to the second negatiuely No. Nor can this instance euict that Tobie 12. 12. Raphael telleth Tobias thus When thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter-in-law I did bring the remembrance of your praiers before the Holy One. First what an Addle-head are you that trump in the Protestants way with this Testimony which your Masters can tell you for happely your ignorance knoweth not so much they esteem of no otherwise than a Talmudicall Tale Secondly how can you accord this Tale with your owne Tenents Raphael both speaketh heer as their Angell-keeper and carrieth himself so in that whole negotiation Raphael was of the highest Hierarchy next to Michael and Gabriel in your account Your selues teach that Angels of that Hierarchie are not Custodes nor imploied vnto men but all imployed ordinarily are of the inferiour and lowest rank Riddle me riddle mee what is this You told vs of one that could vntie knots let him vntie this or cut it in pieces for it troubleth vs not a little That Angell Reuel 8. 4. from whose hands the smoke of incense ascended which is expressed to haue been the prayers of Saints who was he can you tell mee whether the Angell of the Couenant Christ Iesus himself or Michael the Protector of the Church do you knowe or some other Angell are you assured Was his imployment ordinary or extraordinary can any tell Mysticall you may be sure this Passage is and can you draw Arguments from such Testimonies Your great vnderstanding doth happely think Yea the common resolution is for Nay But howsoeuer the praiers of all Saints that is of the Church were offred to God in the hands of an Angell their Mediator therefore All Angels pray for all men or some Angels for some men ordinarily I deny the necessity of this doctrine When you say more you shall heare further but much more I beleeue you cannot for you fail of your wonted Cue See more and See Fathers that affirm it neither Scripture nor Fathers heer In Conclusion from whence drew you forth this imputation that The holy Angels pray not for vs For Bellarmine your Polstar and Cynosura in point of Controuersie doth confesse It is not denied that Sancti and so Angell orant pro nobis saltem in genere secundum Scriptur as And those that assent as most doo aâ— the
Church of England doth vnto Angell-keepers will not stand with you for it that orant pro nobis not onely in genere but in particulari Your desire is onely for priuate aduantage to keep a Faction on foot and therefore you flutter in dubious tearms Holy Angels pray not for vs which is or true or false as it may be taken XXV That we may not pray vnto them PRay to them if you like it or to Saint Loiola if you please we cannot hinder you from playing the fools and exposing your selues to bee laughed-at for your labours I say as Iosua sometime said in a case not very much vnlike Call vpon what Saints or Angels you will go serue Baal or Astaroth if you fansie it We in the Church of England will call vnto the Lord of Heauen and Earth by immediate addresse without intercession of Mediators hauing warrant most sufficient by direction and inuitation Psalm 50. 15. Call vpon me in the time of trouble so I will beare thee and deliuer thee Doo you knowe any man so vnaduised that will go about when hee may well go streight or will sue for assistance and that also vncertain when he needeth none Perhaps there is no such great impiety in saying Sancte Laurenti ora pro me but in my opinion till I am better informed it is grand foolery to say Sancta Catharina ora pro me where I may say cum effectu vnto God himself Miserere mei Deus Lord haue mercy vpon me If you might haue accesse vnto his Holinesse at pleasure would you vse the mediation of Cardinall Barberino if there bee any such though the Pope's Nephew I suppose not if you did I say no more but The Vicar of Saint Fooles be your ghostly father But our Bible is against our Doctrine In good time how so For Iacob saith Gen. 48. 16. The Angell which redeemed mee you read deliuereth mee from all euill blesse these Lads where first you bely your owne reading You read Angelus qui er uit me Is that deliuereth in the present Tense in your Grammar It is to all but you in the Time past that hath deliuered Now what such difference that it should bee noted betwixt deliuered and redeemed indeed that hath taken me out Secondly read it how you will it is not to purpose You propose it thus That we may not you proue the lawfulnes quia factum so you may proue theft murder and what not It is a priuate fact of Iacob there related by Moses and the Acts no not of the best men are no rules of actions vnto others We should liue by Precept not by Practice Our Sauiour said not What seest thou but What readest thou But thirdly I will take no such exception I admit it ruleable euery way Iacob did well wee may doo so as Iacob did and yet not pray to Angels Therefore fourthly I answer contradictorily to your inference This is not spoken to but of an Angell secondly not of a created Angel but of Christ Thirdly Christ is a true Angell This Fellow must go learn to speak before hee write what to put in Print before hee publish it to vnderstand Diuinity before he babble in it Is Christ an Angell and not a true one Is he a false or a counterfet Angell in appearance in collusion not in substance Who euer heard such Stuffe from a Priest's lips Christ is an Angell not created a true Angell of an higher alloy Prince of Angels as of men a mighty Angell The Angell of the Couenant And this was spoken of him by the Patriarch Iacob The God of Bethel as hee is called that spake with Iacob in Bethel and met him there who wrastled with him who blessed him who told not his name being secret spoken of him by commemoration not vnto him by inuocation That Angell which deliuered mee blesse these The man had I knowe not how some intimation from some other that we would reply that this Angell heer specified as indeed wee beleeue it was Christ himself and no created Angell and therefore to gag our mouthes hee preuents our answer that in the opinion of Saint Basil Chrysostome and Hierome it was not Christ but a created Angell and therefore who for shame can say he praied not to him Wisely I warrant you as if it could not bee auoyded but he was then prayed vnto because in the opinion of these men hee was a created Angell which is no consequence except it were granted that none but created Angels were to bee prayed vnto on any hand at any time vpon any occasion Now who for shame will thus reason to shame himselfe but hee that eyther is past shame or through ignorance not capable of it It is good to vncase such a Mountebanke that he may be knowne what he is But I go from him to this the point in question These Fathers opined That Angel was not Christ but a created Angel and what then As if as many were not of a contrary opinion But were it not so no more can be collected then this that in some mens opinioÌ„ Iacob spake of a created angel thence in some mens opinion not by any expresse words of our Bibles which we were promised to haue this was not Christ Which if it were so as this Gagger can neuer proue it so I will vndertake against him if hee dare yet wee answer first Then it was Iacobs Guardian at least as Tostatus and Iesuites that I haue seene imagine Now the case of Angels-keepers in point of Aduocation Inuocation is much different from other Angels not Guardians as being continually attendant alway at hand though inuisibly therfore though we might say Sancte Angele Custos ora pro me it followeth not we may say Sancte Gabriel ora pro me But lastly heere is no Inuocation nor Intercession nor praying vnto any Angell Custos or not Custos ordinary or extraordinarily attendant It is a desire directed by Iacob vnto God to send his Angel for that seruice and employment to blesse keep those Lads It is no addresse vnto that Holy Angel whosoeuer he was Which being so so far from express words pretended were not this fellow past all shame he would shame to say Iacob prayed vnto an Angel But of this and this Question elsewhere more at large Thither gang this Gaggler and I shall gag him I am sure in this point of praying vnto Angels and Saints XXVI That the Angels cannot help vs. SEale vp thy Lips for euer thou lying tongue Said euer any Protestant Angels cannot helpe vs Name mee the man that may thus bee blotted or hot burning coles bee thy portion thou Lyer and misborne Elâ—e of the Father of lies It is contrary indeed to expresse words of our owne Bibles not alone in the places rightly produced but many moe and more to purpose then some of these are contrary to sense reason beliefe and experience contrary to our teaching our
meaning our dreaming We beleeue confesse of Holy Angels They can will haue doe help vs ordinarily extraordinarily toties quoties they are employed as the mighty Executioners of the Almighties will for his seruants against his foes And yet see the pouerty of this fellowes vndertakings He is to prooue that Angels can help vs. His first proofe is Daniel 10. 13. Michael one of the chiefe Princes came to help mee I question not the meaning of that Text. I yeeld it But I maruaile this fellowe can set it downe Angels help vs and come in with this proofe which should bee expresse and therefore name Angels where Princes not Angels are remembred and so remembred as sensu primo they may bee taken for some temporall Potentate some of the Satrapaes of the King of Persia But the Prince of the Kingdome of Persia withstood mee twenty daies but lo Michael one of the chief Princes came to help mee and I remained there by the Kings of Persia are these words expresse for Angels helping They are I grant for their help but farre from expresse which are so mysticall That of Acts 12. in Saint Peter's case is indeed expresse and nothing can be more plaine for proofe then that place which representeth a performance of that delegation Hee hath giuen his Angels charge concerning thee a thing neuer questioned denied doubted dreamed of by any Protestant that I know To proue himselfe an honest man it were good this accuser would name the man But somewhat there is in it though he cannot tell what We deny to addresse our selues in time of need vnto Angels for mediation or intercession and we doe deny it because we hold it needlesse vnnecessary as no part of our duty as vnbehoouefull to no purpose because we are perswaded that ordinarily in euery exigent at all times no Angel not attendant without remoue can take notice of vs vnderstand our state instantly pitty vs in misery and so relieue vs. This is not for any inualidity of power nor for auersnes of will If they know it they are willing if willing they are sufficient The want proceedeth not from them it is from disability in ourselues to acquaint them ordinarily with our states which needs wee must doe if wee will looke that they should help vs. This is that which this fellow should pitch vpon but then he were gon and not able to say bough to a Goose now hee hath somwhat to say at least and make a shew amongst the Gaggle though it be with a loud lye that They cannot help vs as we say And yet we haue a shew of Fathers and are sent to see first Iustin Martyr Apol. 2. and no more C. W. B. This mans founder hath these words The host of the good Angels we worship and adore Which if it were so is not concerning any thing that hath beene said touching Angels by this Gaggler hitherto But C. W. B. had it from Bellarmine and he followed I know not what translation The Text of Iustin Martyr page 137 of Robert Steuens edit in Greeke is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We confesse saith that Father that we are Atheists in regard of any worship that wee giue vnto those esteemed Gods but not so in respect of the true God him and his Sonne that came from him and hath taught both vs these things and also the Host of good Angels that are different from the other bad that followed him and were likened vnto him as also the Spirit of propheticall predictions we worship and adore honouring them in verity and in truth This is the Text of Iustin meant by this man word for word related in his owne language as he did write and expressed thereout punctually And now Sir what aduantage from Iustin Martyr What haue your Proselytes seen in him Your Translator Perionius mistook his Author and Bellarmine was glad to make aduantage of it and your Instructer took it as he found it As for your selfe I think you are innocent of all Otherwise then so it cannot bee taken For though wee should yeeld it Angels are to bee worshipped yet not with diuine worship your selues confesse with such as is due vnto God alone But if any worship bee giuen them heer it is point par point that which is due to God See what it is to blunder so This was for worshipping of Angels S. Ambrose succedeth in his Book de Viduis for praying vnto Angels So the man flits to and fro Angels are to be beseeched who are deputed our Guardians therfore not all Angels but onely Guardians And is this to purpose Angels pray for vs or We may pray to them indefinitely But I let the rest alone I haue answered else-where these and other places and whatsoeuer other beside these haue hitherto come to my knowledge from our opposites in the point of inuocation XXVII That no Saint deceased hath afterward appeared to any vpon earth I Doo not belieue you that you can name any Protestant that wil defend this That no Saint deceased hath appeared after death Your word is no Gospell It is a Catholique Trick now-a-daies to cog and lie to cast any aspersion vpon Protestants If you haue met with some such it had been well you had named vs the men Your luck and experience hath been better than mine I neuer yet met with any such Deniers Perhaps in your ranging vp and downe you haue met with some ignorant simple people that hearing your talk of Apparitions thought you coniured and not knowing the meaning of the word would not beleeue you vpon any hand and as your custom is you publish it for the doctrine of the Protestants that No man euer appeared no not extraordinarily after death But to purpose We may conceiue your meaning two waies eyther as in common course of kinde or else vpon extraordinary course Apparitions haue been and may be but as works of wonder dispensations of the right hand of the most High Apparitions are not ordinary nor of common dispensation And infinite impostures iuggling tricks and collusions haue beene obtruded at all times vpon the world especially within the last 500 yeeres by coozening cheating knaues vnder vaile and couert of Apparitions principally to delude poore superstitious people with that opinion of Purgatory to make merchandize of the pardons But why not as probable that some Saints haue appeared from Heauen as some Popes haue come from Hell Both at Gods good pleasure extraordinarily who doth all things as hee will in Heauen and Earth What if The soules of the Righteous be in the hands of God are his hands so shortned that no where but in Heauen they can bee in his hands God may send them no doubt extraordinarily No cessation of pain is to the one no impairing of happinesse vnto the other they carry their heauen and hell about with them wheresoeuer they be So that in no diuersity of opinion we might well passe-by your Texts to
be feared at your own weapoÌ„s euen vpon your most aduantage Let it be Turn vnto some of the Saints yet haue you no more but opinion and the opinion you most follow of new birth hatched first by Aquinas as may bee collected For as for Saint Augustines expounding it as Catholiques do I will let the Reader see and then judge One of your owne saith Pineda on the place Some take it spoken ironically and so it is for your purpose is it not By which is meant nothing lesse Alij seriò others take it spoken in good earnest but not therefore as aduising Inuocation Call saith Caietan vnto some of the dead let him be a man that hath liued most vnblameably put him to defend thy cause Assuredly not any will make answer because they are not their soules hauing diâ—d together with the bodies Cardinall Luther's great Antagonist was so farre from imagining any custome of Inuocation in the time of Iob which Bellarmine likewise denieth that he supposeth Eliphas to haue been an Atheist and to deny the soules immortality and what be commeth of your custome of Inuocation in his opinion in the time of Iob Eugubinus by Saints vnderstandeth holy men aliue and by Call not Inuocation but Allocution or naming of them And with him accord Philippus Presbyter and Polychronius as it may be collected by your owne Pineda Others by Saints mean holy Angels but present imployed to bee spoken to as apparitions were then frequent among those holy men either Leiger or extraordinarily imployed Angels Lyra runs another course not to the Persons but Precedents of Saints Reuolue the remembrance of Ages past as if Eliphas has said so and go consider the liues actions of holy men thou shalt finde them discussed exceedingly all but not impatient in affliction any of them In such diuersity of opinions and greater than this to conclude for Inuocation assertiuely none can none will but men like your self quiâ—us anima prosale S. Thomas alone must ouersway all because as Pineda confesseth he was the first that applied it to Inuocation Tandem sapienter D. Thomas sententiam hanc ad inuocationem pertinere voluit After all other Expositors saith Pineda he would haue it belong to inuocation of Saints Therefore put vp your Pipes for Saint Augustine singing that Catholique Song S. Augustine's words are these Indignatio quâ quisque angitur tanquam iniquè sibi aliquid acciderit dum non cogitat vsque adeò se immundum esse coram Dâ—â— vt innocanti Angeli non respondeant aut se demonstrare dignati sint qui enim hoc 〈◊〉 cogiâ—at stultus est irâ irrationabili interimitur Aut idcirco Angelos non audire non videre potest stultus quia ir â interemptus à zelo occisus Indignation saith he expounding the second verse which vexeth a man as if he were hardly dealt withall whilst he doth not remember that in Gods fight he is so vnclean that the Angels vouchsafe not to appear vnto him or giue him any answer when he calleth for them He that thinketh not so is a fool and killed of wrath Or thus A fool cannot heare or see the Angels because anger and wrath haue euen slain him Thus Saint Augustine in those Annotations bringeth a double exposition of those words in both according to the Septuagints reading whom hee followeth by Saints he vnderstandeth not men departed and with God as the Catholiques since Thomas doo interpret it but Angels of Paradise Secondly hee is not for calling vpon them for how could he if he held Bellarmine's Rule for Sancte Abraham but vnto them How As familiarly conuersing with them in those daies as often appearing and talking with them his very words either Guardians or otherwise Let it bee so now Saint Peter Saint Paul appear conuerse with demonstrate themselues to vs for my part I will speak to them to remember my necessities or cause to God as I would to your self or any other Christian for your Praiers or the Churches Thus what get you by Saint Augustine or your owne Bible I list see no more I haue seen enough already the vtmost I am sure that you can say and what I haue seen I haue satisfied already both in Scriptures and Fathers elsewhere These very places you haue named and many others I will not as you vse is actum agere onely this for your better direction or information in this point of Iouocation or rather Intercession through Allocution we do not we dare not pray to Saints that is speak to them or intreat them to pray for vs not for vnlawfulnesse of the act so much as for vnaptnes of the Agent for we are not perswaded nor can it be proued vnto vs by any Romish Catholick liuing that the Saints departed and now with God doo or can ordinarily by any power or ability in themselues hear see knowe take notice of the wants state cases or praiers of men on earth to be mindefull of them vnto God in heauen Nor can it bee prooued that otherwise God doth ordinarily reueal vnto them by any means those former specified that so they may take notice of them This must be prooued or it is in vain to pray to them vnlesse a man will hazard his state and all vpon vncertainties It sufficeth not that they knowe some things at some times in some places of some men extraordinarily for so wee are vncertain what Saints knowe what how much when by what means and so may well be blamed of folly for going about when wee may go direct vnto them when we may go to God Saue all other labour in this point prooue but onely this Their knowledge of any thing ordinarily I promise you straight I will say Holy Saint Mary pray for me till then you must pardon vs Protestants for not playing the fools with you XXXI That the bones or Reliques of Saints are not to bee kept No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead YOu may keepe if you will and lock vp if you please in your Cabinet or Calket or where you will Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Loiolaes hayre which cured if I remember Michael Vasques of I know not what or that goodly Relique which at Denham once in Sir George Peckhams house courst the diuell vp and downe from Anne Smiths foot ouer all her body the Priest following Him with his hand vp and downe wheresoeuer the Spirit went And further take Saint Lipsius old breeches to shrine them in and the vertue that did or might drop from them our Lady of Sichem will perhaps lend them to so holy and deuout a purpose I know no Protestant will steale them from you But ad Textum as Marcellinus vseth to say your Texts of Scripture I meane As all the rest so this also is contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles This say I but what Why two things are prooued or should be First that Reliques may
of the Sonne of man and drink his bloud you haue no life in you Lo without drinking no life euerlasting then poore deceiued Papists what will become of you you shall perish in your sinnes though your bloud shall bee required at the hands of your ignorant or rather deceitufll guides that thus mis-leade you from Christs Institution Luk. 24. 30 35. Christ at Emmaus communicated his disciples vnder one kinde Two things are insisted on out of these words as it appeareth by the laying downe First that this was actio sacra a Communion of the Body of our Sauiour then that it was done vnder one kinde this is taken as granted because there is no mention of drinking of Wine there is made mention of breaking the Bread Ignorants and wilfull take things amisse an ordinary Hebrew phrase it is in the Scriptures to eat bread to break bread for to eat and drink to take a refection or repast This man imagineth that all their meales were sicca conuiuia altogether without any liquor nor Wine nor Water vsed though in hot countries Such a foole would haue no other answer made vnto him but as Arisotle would haue made to him that should deny motion or that hee should neuer drink at his meales the best answer could possibly be made vnto him That it was actio sacra and not communis our Sauiour did celebrate the Communion of his Body and Bloud though I know it is controuerted for my part I will not contend at present I know it is held so by Augustine Theophylact and I adde too Beda and Hierome with others but take heede of the Precedent for if hee communicated onely Bread then I know not what vse of Wine at all there will bee in the blessed Sacrament For these were peraduenture of his Apostles but without all question of his Disciples and so had interest in the Cup if any had at all See more wee cannot Acts 2. 42. then we haue seene already mention made of breaking of Bread which is not exclusiue from drinking of Wine no more then 1. Cor. 11. 13. drinking doth exclude eating at all Poore shifts for Sacriledge and impiety of late made an Article of faith in the Church of Rome He that instituted the one ordained the other ioyntly both and at the same time with all circumstances alike if any aduantage is it is for Drink not for Eat For Drink you all of this saith the Author of the Sacrament hee saith not expresly Eat you all of this as foreseeing that impiety which in time humane presumption should bring-in vpon and against his owne institution fulfilled in the Church of Rome at this day XXXVII That Sacramental vnction is not to bee vsed to the sick VSe it if you will wee hinder you not nor much care or enquire what effects ensue vpon it but obtrude it not on vs or vnto the Church as in Censu of the Sacraments of the time of Grace as Baptisme is held and the Lords Supper Visible signes of inuisible Grace Powerfull instruments ordained by God to work in our Soules eternall Life by conueighing the meanes thereof vnto them Sacramental vnction call it if you please so farre as in the writings of the antient Fathers all Articles peculiar vnto our Christian faith and beliefe are sometime called Sacraments all duties of religious piety vnto God all diuine and Ecclesiasticall ceremonies are named Sacraments in which sense you might reckon not seuen but seuenscore if you were disposed to make a search for Sacraments In the Apostolicall and Primitiue Church it was a custome to anoint the sick with oyle to pray ouer them and so commit them vnto God This Saint Iames remembreth 5. 4. Is any sick among you Let him call for the Elders of the Church and let them pray ouer him anointing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. The Apostle doth not call it a Sacrament Sacramentall vnction as the Thesis proposeth and which is that should bee expresly prooued Our Bibles say the sick were anointed but not our Bibles nor theirs doe say that this anointing was a Sacrament And Fathers wee are not sent to see that proue it so the place is not to purpose as it is proposed Mar. 6. 13. is a Text defacto They anointed with oyle many that were sick and healed them but de iure there is not a word in that Text whether yea or no this Anointing should bee a Sacrament The Master of controuersies confesseth himselfe that it is not accorded whether in this Text or not Sacramentall vnction was instituted and himselfe is of opinion that it is not grounding on the resolution of the Councell of Trent to which all Papists are tyed to subscribe and yeeld and how dare you bring this as a proofe Now say the truth Sir Goose and shame the diuell How plain are these Texts that set your great Directors together by the ears Where were your sick wits that did not aduise you Take heed of falling foule with the Councel of Trent the cynosura of your faith Sure they were made of the pappe of an apple so easily they squeeze themselues out to nothing your great Dictators haue found hitherto but one direct Text Iames 5. 4. can we think your sharp sight should spy out three more a Fox or a Fearne-bush somewhat or nothing for Mat. 16. 18. Acts 28. 8. nor oyle nor vnction is remembred bare imposition of hands vpon the sick and diseased so that wee stand in some possibility heerafter to haue added an eightth Sacrament to the former seauen XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy orders THis indeed is contrary vnto the expresse words of our Bible and therefore directly contrary to our Opinion Doctrine and Practice Can this fellowe bee so ignorant as not to know or rather so impudent as to deny that in giuing of holy orders we vse those memorable formall words of our Sauiour Receiue the holy Ghost Was euer man made Minister in the Church of England but in that sort with that forme Can hee deny that wee not onely practise it but propugne it command it to bevsed enquire of and punish the neglect opposition and contempt thereof What shall wee say to such a base detracting Varlet as shameth not in view of heauen and earth to deny the Sun shineth at noone-day Romane Catholiques I admire your patience that suffer such Hog-rubbers to leade you by the nose and make you beleeue the snowe is black Poore deceiued Soules trust no such Merchants that would sell you to the diuell for a morsell of bread and make you stand out vpon tearms of Separation for their owne aduantages against the Church as Schismaticks in which you liue and haue beene baptized XXXIX That Priests and other religious Persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes TOuching marriage of Ministers this is our Doctrine resolued
riddles Saint Hier in praefat commen in Eph. Saint Aug. Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith The things c. Saint Gregorie hom 6. in Ezech and many others confesse the same Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible Math. 23. 2. 2. 3. * Note here that he doth not say whosoeuer but whatsoeuer giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that not onely the bonds of sinne but as well all other knots and difficulties in matters of saith and manners are to be loosed by Saint Peter and by the Pastors that succeed him in the Church See more to this effect Deut. 17. 8. See Aggee the 2. and 11. 2 Chron. 19. 8. See Fathers which affirme the same S. Gregor Nazian in Oratione excusat Tertul. lib. de praescrip Haeret S. Cyprian Lib. 1. Epi. 3. S. Aug. lib. 1. cont Cres cap. 33. lib. cont epist Fund ca. 5. Whether now wilt thou beleeue so great a Bishop as S. Anselme or some other Host or Hostesse that sell bottle-ale Contrary to express words of their owne Bible 1. 2. 3. Thas Traditions are to be receiued see more Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer beare great Saint Basil See Fathers that affirme the same S. Basil lib. de spirit Sanct. ca. 27. saith that some things we haue from Tradition of the Apostles both which haue force alike vnto godlinesse Some things wee haue from Scripture other things from the Apostles Traditions both which haue like force vnto godlinesse Shall then the saying of some vnlearned Baker ouer-beare great Saint Basil And consequently cannot erre See more Iohn 16. 13. Therefore it is not forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to bee in a tongue not vnderstood by the Assistants Now the names of the twelue Apostles are these the first Simon which is called Peter Therefore c. And what other thing is it for Peter to confirme and strengthen his brethren than to practice and exercise his greatnesse ouer them For he that doth strengthen and confirme is greater and they who are strengthened c. are made thereby inferiors to him who doth strengthen and confirme them See more for proofe hereof c. See Fathers that affirme the same Theoph. in 22. Luk calleth Peter Prince of the Disciples Eusebius in Chron First Bishop of Christians S. Cyril of Hier. Cat. 2. Prince and most excellent of all the Apostles S. Chrys hom 55. in Mat. Pastor and Head of the Church Cont. Crescon 3. 15. Contrary to their own Bible 2 Thes 2. 3. For so Saint Peter should then be Antichrist for he was Pope and the very first of Popes Therefore the great Antichrist shall be a particular man Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible See more Mat. 16. 19. See Fathers that affirme the same Contrary to the expresse words of your owne Bible Therefore sinnes may be confessed vnto man See the Fathers who affirme the same Tertul. lib. ad Mart. ca. 1. Pope Vrban the second graunted a plenary Indulgence to such as would goe to the Holy-Wars An. Christi 160. Hence hath the ground of Indulgences beene alwayes taken but more principally from the super abundant merit of Iesus Christ Whence it appeareth that man by assistance of Gods grace may doe some things counselled And these we call workes of supererogation See one Father for the same in stead of many I could produce See more Eccles 15. 14. Is it not then plaine wilfulnesse to denye Freewill See Fathers that affirme the same S. Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 7. Contrary to express words of their owne Bible Briefly if the Commandements were impossible they could binde no man For it is not to bee conceiued how one should sinne in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid It is not to be conceiued how one should sin in a thing which hee could not possibly auoid Lastly Saint Basill who saith it is an impious thing to say that the commandements of God are impossible See more 1 Cor. 9. c. See Fathers that affirme the same S. Ambrose de Apolog. Dauid ca. 6. S. Hier. lib. 3. cont Pelag. S. Aug. de spirit lit cap. vlt. 1. 2. 3. Contrary to the expresse words of their owne Bible See more Ose 13. 9 c. See Fathers that affirm the same S. Aug. lib. 1. ciuit Tert. de Orat cap. 8. S. Cyprian Lib. 4. Epist 2. S. Ambrose Lib. 2. de Cain et Abel will nâ—t that we refer vnto God the preuarication of Adam or treason of Iudas though hee knew the sin before it was committed Contrary to their owne Bible Therefore S. Paul himself was not assured infallibly A point of doctrine so improbable that we will not labour to ouerthrowe it by any further proof of Fathers Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible Mat. 18. 10 Therefore they had their Angell-keeper This very passage Saint Cyril of Alexandria Lib. 4. con Iulian. applieth to our Angel-keeper See more Acts 12. 14. 1. Cor. 11. 10. Contrary to expresse words in your owne Bibles Zach. 1. 9 10 11. Now what I pray you is a praier if this be not Contrary to their owne Bible That this was spoken to a true Angell and not to Christ Basil l. 3. c. Eunomium S. Chrys ho. 7. in laud. S. Pauli and vpon 1. of Col. and S. Hier. vpon 66 of Esay Which beeing so who for shame can say He prayed not vnto him See Fathers that affirme what hath beene said touching Angels For some such my self haue met with Therefore Saints deceased haue appearea to some on earth At Saint August witnesseth Lib. de cura mortis cap. 14. Nor can any be so senslesse as to say they pray for them selues Contrary to their owne Bible If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. Where note that Theodoret paraphrasing vpon Baruch interpreteth this very place as Catholiques doo Now is the Sunne more cleare than that Saints pray for vs Iob 1. 5. 〈◊〉 S. August himself expounds this very place as Catholiques doo in his Annot. vpon Iob. If it had not been the common custome in the time of Iob to inuocate the Saints deceased it had bin friuâ—lous for Eliphas to haue asked Iob to which of the Saints he wou'd t 〈…〉 See more Contrarie to expresse words of their owne Bibles In second of Kings but is the 4 by the account of Catholiques 13. 21. S. Chrysost To. 5. cont Gentil quòd Christus sit Deus in an whole Booke proues heerby and by the like vertue of other Saints that Christ their Lord and Master is God whose seruants napkins and shadows could do such wonders Are they not therefore fooles and blind that keepe such a â—ooting at Holy-bread Hooker Poor Protestant whither now is thy figure fled See Fathers that affirm the same S. Ignat. in his Epist ad Smyr Iustin Mar. Apol. 2. ad Antoninum Now say the truth and shame the Diuell are not they sick in their wits which will oppose such plaine Scriptures Deuter. 23. 22. Psal 66. 13. Psal 19. 11. 1. Tim. Math. 5. 12. Ier. 35. 5. Therefore it is grounded c. Contrary to their owne Bibles These freed Captiues cannot bee the soules of the Saued which no man in his right wits can call Captiues nor of the damned for so the diuels should be brought again into heauen Therefore they were the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Acts 2. 27. Which very words Saint August applieth to the paint of Purgatory and addeth Who but an Infidel will deny Christ to haue descended into hell Ep. 99. ad Euodium Saint Ambrose Ser. 20 in Psal 118. Saint Hierome vpon 4 of Amos Saint August vpon the 37 Psal Saint Gregory lib. 4. Dial. explicate this very place of Purgatory Heb. 9. 1. 5. Lo Saint Paul calleth the pictures of the Cherubins which Salomon made an Ordinance of diuine Seruice which Protestants call the making of Idols who now shall we beleeue whether S. Paul or a Protestant When painting and grauing of 〈◊〉 tures is so farre from beeing Idolatry that it is prooued to be a Science diuinely infused by God himself Contrary to expresse words of their owne Bible and he said Draw not nigh hither c. Lo how cleer a place is produced heer against Protestants where an insensible â—reature without reason was commanded by God himselfe to be honored Now the principal reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it which as S. Ierom saith the lewes did worship in his Ep. ad Marcellan Num. 21. 8. Hence are euidently prooued diuers things against Protestants c. See Fathers that affirme the same Saint Ambrose Ser. 1. in Psal 118. Where first our Lord hauing taught his owne Disciples that excellent Prayer of all praiers which hee would haue them to offer to him the Pater noster or our Lords Praier hee afterwards in many other places willeth them to pray alwaies as Luke 18. 1. The Angels in the Prophet Esay Esay 6. and the beasts in the Apoc. Apo. 4. which rest neither dâ—y nor night do thrice repeat c.