Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	incense_n	prayer_n	smoke_n	1,391	5	11.4786	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09287	Rhemes against Rome: or, The remoouing of the gagg of the new Gospell, and rightly placing it in the mouthes of the Romists, by the Rhemists in their English translation of the Scriptures. Which counter-gagg is heere fitted by the industrious hand of Richard Bernard ...	Bernard, Richard, 1568-1641.	1626 (1626)	STC 1960; ESTC S101681	240,340	338

merit of the Saints If all this were true and euidently cleere out of Scripture yet will it not follow that wee therefore may pray to them For prayer is a part of Gods worship to bee made onely to God as precepts dobindlys the patterne of all true right praying directeth and holy mens examples doe teach vs So this answer might suffice Yet that their proofes from Scripture may not deceiue the vnconsiderate I wil produce the places for all foure and make answer thereunto I. Scriptures obiected That Angels pray in particular for vs answered Zach. 1. 12. And the Angell of the Lord answered and said O Lord of Hosts how long wilt thou not haue mercy on Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iudah c Answ 1. This was a vision in the night to the Prophet verse 8. and chap. 4. 1. and so an extraordinarie thing and being so and also but a representation for the present to instruct the Prophet a reall and ordinarie act cannot bee concluded from thence Secondly these words are not a Prayer but a kinde of enquirie after the Lords purpose touching the future estate of the Church that he might enforme the Prophet thereof as by the present ensuing answer may appeare in verse 13. and the charge giuen to make the same knowne to the Church verse 14 15. for her comfort in restoring her to glory and peace verse 16 17. Thirdly grant it a Prayer it will not proue that Angels pray for vs because this Angell is not a created Angell but Iesus Christ who is often called in the Old Testament an Angell as before is shewed And that this Angell is so to bee taken is euident For first the Prophet calleth this Angell his Lord vers 9. chap. 4. 4 5. Secondly the Text calleth him the Lord and maketh this Angell and the Lord all one verse 19 20 21. Thirdly to this Angell the other gaue an account verse 11. Fourthly before this Angell stood Iosua the High Priest chap. 3. 1 3. and he is called the Lord verse 2. The Lord said vnto Satan The Lord rebuke thee Satan Tobie 12. 12. I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the holy One Answ 1. He that is here brought in for an Angell of God in chap. 5. 12. told no better then a lye for he said he was Azarias the sonne of Ananias a mortall mans sonne He could not then be an Angell or if an Angell a lying one And as hee made a lye therein so might he doe in this chap. 12. 12 15. Secondly this place doth not proue that Angels pray for vs. For he saith not that he prayed for them but if the lyer may be beleeued he brought their prayers vnto Gods remembrance and presented them vers 15. as one taking a Petition of another man to present it to a King he is the presenter of it but not the Petitioner Thirdly this Booke is Apocrypha and suspected of idle fables such as learned Papists doe meanely esteeme of Reu. 8. 4. And the smoake of the Incense which came with the prayers of the Saints ascended from the hand of the Angell before God Answ 1. Here is no created Angell but Iesus Christ which is cleere by these reasons First from the allusion to the Priests office seruing at the Altar who was a type not of a created Angell but of Christ Heb. 9. 11. Then from the place where this Angell stands which was at the Altar to offer vpon the golden Altar which was before the Throne but the Angels are in the out circuit of the Church chap. 5. 11. as her guard to keepe her Psal 34. 7. Secondly it is not said that hee offered vp the Saints prayers but he offered vp Incense with their prayers It accompanied the Saints prayers verse 4. and the smoake of the Incense ascended vp with the prayers of the Saints Christs Spirit goeth with the prayers of the Saints like Incense and the vehemencie thereof teaching vs to pray with groanes that cannot bee expressed Rom. 8. is like smoke ascending vp before God or the Incense is Christs own intercession the smoake the efficacie thereof accompanying the Saints prayers vnto God for when wee pray he then prayeth for vs. Thirdly most of the Papists which doe write vpon this Text doe hold this Angell to be Christ Peter Bullenger Thom. Aquin. Rich. de Sancto victore Haymo Dion Carthus Viegas and many other This is nothing then for Angels praying for vs. Dan. 8. 15. When I Daniel had seene the vision c. and chap. 9. 20 21. while I was speaking in Prayer c. Answ 1. The former Text speakes nothing at all of any Angels praying but of the Angels instructing Daniel at Gods commandement chap. 8. 16 17. This was also a vision in a deepe sleepe verse 18. From whence Doctrines of Faith are not to be concluded but soundly to be taught from the literall sense of other holy Scriptures II. The latter Text sheweth that Daniel praying to God chap. 9. 20. the Angell of the Lord was sent to him verse 21. but no mention of any prayer made by the Angell for him Whether Angels pray for vs the Scripture teacheth not If wee yeeld that they doe it followes not that we should pray to See D. White his last booke in answer to Luk. 15. 10. pag. 315 316. to 1. Cor. 4. 9. pag. 317. them The Angels are sent out by God for vs they are often with vs they are helpers and by comming and going at Gods bidding they doe know our affaires here But should wee therefore pray to them it is a part of Gods worship and Angels themselues as before is proued forbid to be worshipped II. Scriptures obiected to proue that Saints departed know what is here done on earth answered Luk. 16. 29. They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them Answ 1. It is a Parable and a thing supposed onely not a literall History For after the very letter some things in this Parable cannot be true and therefore they cannot hence conclude a Doctrine as out of a Historie If this place will serue for Saints knowledge from Abraham how can the Papists looke on this Text hindring the people from the Scripture When first Abraham exhorts to the hearing of Moses and the Prophets Secondly denyeth the sending of the dead to instruct as Papists haue beene instructed for their feigned Purgatorie Thirdly he affirmeth that they which will not heare the Scriptures written by Moses and the Prophets will not beleeue such as rise from the dead Thus he confirmeth the authoritie of the Scriptures against wandring visions apparitions Secondly the Papists say that before Christs Ascension Abraham and the rest of the Patriarks were in the place called Limbus patrum How could Abraham know what was done in Earth when he was in the prison Perhaps by enquirie made of other Soules which came thither how the Church did and what other meanes of instruction she had then