likely to see The poore man can afford vs no Fathers heere his reading it seemeth would not reach vnto that and his good Masters were not at hand to help him I could furnish him if hee would thank mee to better purpose then his Scriptures haue but want I suppose he will rather then be beholding to a Protestant To conclude wee will not deny him that Euery man hath his Angell-keeper but within the Church at least not rambling abroad Are they not all of them ministring spirits sent forth to minister To whom where Not to euery man vnder heauen but with restriction Who shall be heyres of saluation In offensiue sort against their foes in defensiue manner for their good Thus the Scriptures speake and no otherwise thus the Fathers taught and no otherwise Not Euery man but Euery Christian man at his Birth or at his Baptisme hath his Guardian Angell deputed to him XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. WIth Ly and all Sir Gagger Not pray for vs Now I pray you who saith so No man will say or think so that beleeueth in his Creed The communion of Saints and can tell what connexion of the two parts of the Church of the Redeemed there is the one militant heere in Earth the other Regnant and Triumphant in Heauen Now a principall part of that Communion and Society which they haue with vs is to recommend our state and necessities vnto God our Father To which end God Almighty hath as wee professe in our Collect vpon Michaelmas Day appointed the Seruice of men and Angels in a wonderfull sort But somewhat there was or the man mistook Their Praying for vs may bee considered two waies either in Generall or in Particular For the peace of Sion the prosperity of Ierusalem the state and condition of the Church militant in earth thus in generall For Manasses in Captiuity Hezechiah beleaguered by Senacherib For this man or that man in particular vpon speciall motiues and occasions and that likewise two waies either ordinarily and of common course or specially by Delegation in extraordinary seruice Now this Proposition Holy Angels pray for vs doth not limit nor explaine the tearmes but is ambiguous as this peddler most an end frameth all in his Pack to calumniate and to deceiue Whether All Angels pray for All men or All for some men or some for all or some for some who can tell that was not of counsell to his pen and purpose As it lyeth lurking in fraudulent tearmes I can answere both waies and contradictory waies First Holy Angels pray not for vs and truly too Nor shall this Goose hiscere against my answere viz. Not euery holy Angell in speciall for euery man in particular Not at all times vpon any or all occasions I can also answer and truly too Holy Angels pray for vs. And so this Gagger may goe shoo the Goose That is It is a principall part of their performance in Heauen as they magnifie their Maker eternally so to recommend vnto Him vncessantly the Estate and good beeing of the Church of the Redeemed as yet in great Tribulations I adde yet further At all times some of them pray for the particular estate of some priuate Men Cities States Societies or Countries And the Holy Angell-keepers for their speciall charges commended vnto their trust by God at sometime some of them for all for some vpon special occasion employment or designation as extraordinarily they may and doe vndertake Now to come home to your loose laxe affirmation Your expresse words in our Bible are not so expresse as to speake to your purpose that of Zachar. 1. 9. 10. runneth thus O Lord of hosts how long wilt thou net haue mercy vpon Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iuda against which thou hast had indignation these 70 yeeres For it followeth not because this one Angell prayed for Ierusalem in Captiuity any Angel doth pray for any or euery man This was extraordinary your supposall must bee ordinary This was occasionall for his employment your Angels must not bee so allotted Happely this was their Angell-Guardian Michael Prince of the Synagogue Pleade thus for Angell-keepers none will gayn-say you They pray for vs no question at all This was in a peculiar case for restoring Ierusalem and Iuda according to promise in appointed time 70 yeeres designed by the Prophets So the question was idle like your selfe Whether this were not a Prayer The question well ordred should haue beene Whether All Angels at all times doe not in particular pray for euery particular man as this Angell heere did for Sion To the former wee answere positiuely Yea to the second negatiuely No. Nor can this instance euict that Tobie 12. 12. Raphael telleth Tobias thus When thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter-in-law I did bring the remembrance of your praiers before the Holy One. First what an Addle-head are you that trump in the Protestants way with this Testimony which your Masters can tell you for happely your ignorance knoweth not so much they esteem of no otherwise than a Talmudicall Tale Secondly how can you accord this Tale with your owne Tenents Raphael both speaketh heer as their Angell-keeper and carrieth himself so in that whole negotiation Raphael was of the highest Hierarchy next to Michael and Gabriel in your account Your selues teach that Angels of that Hierarchie are not Custodes nor imploied vnto men but all imployed ordinarily are of the inferiour and lowest rank Riddle me riddle mee what is this You told vs of one that could vntie knots let him vntie this or cut it in pieces for it troubleth vs not a little That Angell Reuel 8. 4. from whose hands the smoke of incense ascended which is expressed to haue been the prayers of Saints who was he can you tell mee whether the Angell of the Couenant Christ Iesus himself or Michael the Protector of the Church do you knowe or some other Angell are you assured Was his imployment ordinary or extraordinary can any tell Mysticall you may be sure this Passage is and can you draw Arguments from such Testimonies Your great vnderstanding doth happely think Yea the common resolution is for Nay But howsoeuer the praiers of all Saints that is of the Church were offred to God in the hands of an Angell their Mediator therefore All Angels pray for all men or some Angels for some men ordinarily I deny the necessity of this doctrine When you say more you shall heare further but much more I beleeue you cannot for you fail of your wonted Cue See more and See Fathers that affirm it neither Scripture nor Fathers heer In Conclusion from whence drew you forth this imputation that The holy Angels pray not for vs For Bellarmine your Polstar and Cynosura in point of Controuersie doth confesse It is not denied that Sancti and so Angell orant pro nobis saltem in genere secundum Scriptur as And those that assent as most doo aâ— the
why then thus they take it It is his office it will be performed by him at the Resurrection and day of Doome Moses then will stand vp and accuse you Any way take it it cannot conclude that Saints in Heauen do knowe by any ordinary course what passeth continually vpon earth What Saints are said to know and what not how many waies to what purposes and ends I could let the Reader see and gagge vp this gabbler for euer but I haue don it already elsewhere in that point to which this tendeth of Inuocation of which notwithstanding I must say som what heere for it followeth next in order XXIX That they pray not for vs. WEE say not so You either mistake vs or bely vs. The Saints pray for vs all in generall all Saints for vs or euery Saint for vs that is for the Church militant on earth You shall finde if you enquire that the Caluinists themselues as you call them or Puritans hold this I adde The Saints pray for vs in particular some particular Saint for some particular man in some speciall cause some time And to come more particularly to it The Question is not whether Saints departed doe pray vnto God that is confessed on both sides all Saints doe by prayer intercession supplication as well as thanksgiuing It is confessed they pray for others and for themselues too by all but this addle-pate who prates he knoweth not what and measureth other mens senses by his owne senslesnesse It is euident they doe Apocal. 6. 10. How long O Lord holy and true doest thou not iudge and auenge our bloud on them that dwell vpon the earth The fellow neuer heard that the soules of the Righteous pray for their consummation in glory such an infant is hee in these speculations which are so common Again it is not denied they pray for vs in regard of that Communion of Saints whereof this holy performance is a principall and main part for vs in generall out of fellow-feeling and commiseration of our miseries which themselues haue tasted in this valley of tears for their friends in particular whom they remember whose state they recommend vnto God in praier they hauing lost no endowment in their Soule in Glory which did accrue vnto them vpon Earth And as for Loue and Charity vnto their brethren which makes them so forward to do them good that is exceedingly enlarged there Monica Saint Augustine's Mother for instance departing this life before her Sonne I make no doubt being seateâ— in those Heauenly Palaces might and did remember her sonne on earth recommend his estate vnto our blessed Sauiour pray for him in generall his good Constancy Perseuerance and Confirmation in the course of his Christian Profession and Priestly Function and not onely so but might remember him in some particular occasions occurrences and actions with which in her life-time she was acquainted And yet Saint Augustine had nor could haue any warranâ— at all to pray vnto her for her remembrance of him or assistance in things that fell out afterwards after her death because there was not nor yet could bee any ordinary course certain whereby hee might acquaint her with his particulars after her death which is all in all for inuocation To come home to the point It should not be put as heer it is that they pray for vs for without question they doo and it is confessed by all Protestants that they doo pray for vs in generall all without limitation in particular in some cases But it should haue been specified when for what by what meanes and how they doo and doo not pray for vs but of these and such like necessary Inferences as these this Dreamer thought not or else would take no notice So hard a thing is it to knowe or set down the state of a Controuersie right so vnwilling at least men are to come to tearms of commerce and some agreement who minde nothing but faction and disturbance This being premised we proceed to see how contrary the Doctrine of the Protestants is vnto their owne Bible Apoc. 5. 8. our Bibles read thus The 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb hauing euery one of them Harps and golden Vials full of Odors which are the Praiers of Saints Heer 24 Elders are represented but in a vision Then who told this Smatterer in diuinity who they were It is exprest that these Odors were the Prayers of Saints but is it expressed who they were that presented them or what Prayers or what Saints The Praiers of Saints on Earth But then except a man be a Saint on Earth Intercession vnto Mediation of Saints in Heauen will doo him no good at all Presented by Saints in Heauen but Quo warranto For not because this vision was in Heauen represented therefore the Action and Actors intended were also heauenly and the thing represented no where done but there Such obscure Prophesies not yet vnderstood that you can say by any are neuer assumed for Proofs in point of Controuersie but of men that vphold a desperate forlorn cause for want of cleerer Proofs For the Text Irenaeus inclineth to take it of those Prayers which the Church of GOD offreth vpon Earth lib. 4. cap. 33 Quoniam ergo Nomen Filij proprium Patris est in Deo omnipotenti per Iesum Christum offert Ecclesia bene ait secundum vtraque in omni loco incensum offertur Nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohannes in Apocalypsi Orationes ait esse Sanctorum which is again repeated by that mvsticall Diuine Apocal. 8. And the smoke of the incense which are the Prayers of Saints went vp from the hand of the Angell before God No more is collected or can bee from these Texts but this that Prayer is compared to Incense according vnto that in the Psalm Let their Praier bee set forth in thy sight like incense and let the lifting-vp of their hands bee as the euening sacrifice But concluded it cannot be from these mysticall Visions that these Saints prayed vnto that Angell that the 24 Elders represented the Angels that those Praiers were addressed from men vpon Earth that the Vision expressed a thing ordinary and done that any man of discretion or vnderstanding in Diuinity or common reason would haue gone in hand to haue prooued a thing controuerted and obscure by that which is much more obscure as this Fellow doth In Macchab. 2. 15. 14. thus we read This is a louer of the Brethren who prayeth much for the people and for the holy City to wit Ieremias the Prophet and from thence the conclusion is Therefore they pray for vs. To weet you should haue added the Prophets or the Iewes Indeed in a Dream worthy no doubt to be beleeued verse 11. For so Iudas dreamed and you beleeue it and draw vs a Conclusion from your Dream thus Therefore they Ieremy and Onias if you will pray for vs In a Dream too So the Doctrine
departed receiue by the assistance of the Church To admit it euident and concerning succour which soules departed receiue and that by the assistance of the Church yet first I say you go from your word no such contrariety heer as you pretend Secondly you are a poor Ignaro that think soules must needs be in Purgatory that receiue assistance from the Church It may be your poor vnderstanding will wonder at it but knowe Sir I can admit Praier for the Dead and deny your Purgatory I can giue you reasons to pray for the Dead and yet keep farre enough from your Purgatory But for that some other time At present I answer You are a silly man that call this an euident place one of the hardest in all Scripture Quid sit baptizari pro mortuis obscurum est ab Authoribus variè exponitur say your owne men which is true For till this day it is not agreed what is the meaning no man can say This is the sense and yet our Blunderer saith It is euident Doo you knowe that some take pro mortuis for the Dead that is for sinnes because men die through sinnes and the works of sin are called Dead works And so men are baptized to be deliuered from sinne These men dreamt not of Purgatory That others vse pro mortuis that is doo represent the Dead because we die to sinne in Baptism and are buried vnto corruption And not much differing hence that others take it Into the death of Christ which of these thought vpon Purgatory Again some take Baptism for affliction men afflicted vnto death what shall they doo if the dead rise not again Some referre it vnto a Iewish custome by which if a man had died polluted another was clensed and washed for him that so beeing dead hee might get aduantage by it This Iewish Fable may happely look vpon your Purgatory and much good may it doo you Yet farther Chrysostome relateth vpon this place that when any of the Catechized among the Marcionite Heretiques died a liuing body was laid vnder the Beer and the question proposed vnto the Party If he would be baptized for you knowe the Catechumeni were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbaptized The Party answered for the dead man Yes I will and so was hee baptized for him And thus they expounded Saint Paul's meaning Tertullian by dead vnderstandeth the body of man If there be no Resurrection to what end is the body baptized Epiphanius lastly and most men commonly take it for the baptizing of the Clinici as they called them Men in those times vsually deferred Baptism vntill their death and in extremis would be baptized So to be baptized for the Dead is to be baptized when men are ready to dy which they not doe but vpon hope of the Resurrection In such variety and greater than so yet saith this fellowe An euident place To come home to the assertion It is plaine and euident the Apostle speaketh not of any succour that soules departed receiued from the Suffrages of the Church which were it granted no necessity of Purgatory would ensue but of comfort that men receiued from that mayne point of our most holy faith the Resurrection of the Dead the mayne Subiect of that Chapter as euery child with vs can tell See more for wee haue seene but little hitherto 2. Tim. 1. 18. where That day is transmued into Purgatory For Saint Pauls words are The Lord grant vnto him that he may find mercy with the Lord at that day that is may bee deliuered out of Purgatory at the day of Iudgement So wheresoeuer God sheweth mercy there is Purgatory or All that finde mercy at the day of Iudgement come out of Purgatory Vnlesse this bee his meaning let him tell me what he would haue with Saint Paul here If this bee his meaning I wish him well for sure hee is in no right wits because so no man liuing can escape Purgatory by this inference For no man but findeth mercy with God before that time and then No man but needeth Gods mercy then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In that fearfull and terrible day when wee stand in need of great mercy indeed saith Chrysost who neuer dreamt of any Purgatory nor would haue sent Onesiphorus thither had hee fancied any such thing for euen according to your owne Doctrine his good deeds had not onely aboundantly merited for himselfe sufficiently satisfied for his Peccadilloes but his Indurances ouer and aboue layd somewhat vnto the Church-treasure And what hath Purgatory to do with such a man Esay 4. 4. the Prophet speaketh of the Spirit of burning and of Purging thus When the Lord shall wash the filthines of the daughter of Sion purge the blood of Ierusalem out of the midst thereof by the Spirit of iudgement and by the Spirit of burning then without all doubt Purgatory burneth apace the rather because Saint Augustine expoundeth it of Purgatory Lib. 20. de Ciuit. Dei Cap. 25 saith Bellar. You left vs to seeke Cap. 21 say others so your selues are to seeke I meane for any such thing in Saint Augustine For hee is belied in both places which touch not vpon Purgatory at all but manifestly designe the last Iudgement In the 21. he professes himself that his discourse was wholly therof à primo Saluatoris aduentu vsque ad vltimū Iudiciū de quo nunc agimus And more euidently Cap. 25. Videtur euidentius apparere in illo Iudicio quodam quorundā futuras Poenas purgatorias Purgatory paines are by S. Augustine put off and adiourned vnto the last Iudgement then to begin when yours end and this but in opinion not resolution Now Sir what aduantage haue you by Saint Augustine who speaketh opiningly of Purgatory but excludeth your Purgatory And to as much purpose is Saint Basil expounding the place of Esay 9. 18. of Purgatory you say The text is For wickednes burneth as a fire it deuoureth the briers and thornes and will kindle in the thick places of the Forrest and they shall mount vp like the lifting vp of smoke Basil in his exposition nameth purging fire I grant it but this purging fire is in life not after death in this world not in the world to come and God himselfe is this purging fire who abolisheth and consumeth iniquitie by Repentance being detected by confession as any man may see that will but looke vpon the place and the same Father vpon the 10. of Esay more plainely explicateth his owne meaning Pandit hic naturam ignis quia lustratiuus est et purgatorius Sanctificabit enim ipsum quasi in igne ardenti Quomodo autem sanctificat ignis Quia comesturus est syluam tanquam foenū Sanè ex quo Deus noster ignis consumens est consumet syluā et vitia quae à syluā siue materiâ promanant animae quae non degit in spiritu sed in carne Strange conceits that if any Father name purging fire hee must needs bee a