what meane you by them of whom where when vpon what grounds why a rambling logodiarrhe without wit or reason Edicta Principum Decreta Synodorum And iudicia pro tribunali are of large extent of different alotment For against God Equity Truth and Honesty what an idle discourse is it thus to shoote your bolts as boyes doe stones to make Duckes and Drakes vpon the surface of the water to glide smoothly for two or three grasings and then sinke to the bottome without any more adoe Adde quantity to iudgements Decrees Edicts wee shall know what you would say and so answere As for humane wisedome that helpe on our right hand haue you such cause to boast we haue no sense nor reason I thinke you doe not find vs such arrant fooles as vtterly destitute of humane indowments If you doe the better for you You may cary the cause against vs without more adoe Customes we haue many of the better sort not all your anticke fits and gesticulations You haue not all antiquity had you haue many they neuer saw Silly man know you not most customes doe and may vary keepe your owne if you please we are not so wedded to them nor to all ours but vpon reason we haue will and may change by better warrant then you can auoide As for multitude we dare drip Siders with you old and late but these are meere flashes of your Catholike vanity I haue said it often I repeate it in the close that you may remember it the better at least you shall find that is my selfe that will ioyne issue with you when you dare to maintaine the doctrine of the Church of England and oppose the doctrine of the Romish Church by all of these or any of these Antiquitie Custome Multitude humane wisedome Iudgements Decrees Edicts and Councels If I haue not for me in all or euery one as good and better share and interest for my confession theÌ„ you for yours I wil yeeld As for Miracles Visions and such hobgoblin-stuffe I am contented you appropriate to your owne So did the Gentiles brag of the like as Chrysostome obserueth Orat. 1. in Iudai santes pag. 34. Edit Hesheâ— So did the Donatists as S. Augustine reporteth de notis Ecclesiae ca. 19. Their miracles were then as yours now Figmenta mendacium hominum aut portenta fallacium spirituum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is a prouerbiall speech in Athenaeus Fooles may be frighted with Hagges and Fairies men of vnderstanding know it is but knauery At Lauretto Sichem Annuntiada or wheresoeuer we haue the like puppet playes amongst our Catholike neighbours Cachinnantibus daemonijs at such iugling tricks for their aduantage And yet take me not so as if I cast off all miracles I admit I admire them that were true for a true end the ratificatiou of Truth vnto the soule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That such as would not yeeld vnto the word preached might yet be conuicted by that miraculous power saith Clemens in his Constituions This was that the world might beleeue but yet since and euer Chrysostome said true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 One faith and beleefe is to be regulated not by miracles but by the Scripture which on good foundation we defend containes all that is Necessary for our saluation You haue done with your Reader and I with you till we meet againe at the next turne till then farewell A list of the seuerall errors imputed to the PROTESTANTS by this Gagger being so many Lyes I. THey maintaine in the first place that the Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood II. That in matters of Faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word III. That Apostolicall Traditions and ancient Customes of the holy Church are not to be receiued nor doe oblige vs. IIII. That the Church can erre V. That the Church hath beene hidden and inuisible VI. That it is forbidden in holy Scripture the publike seruice of the Church to be in a Tongue not vnderstood by all the Assistants VII That Saint Peter was not the first or chiefe among the Apostles and that none was greater or lesse among the twelue VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed IX That a Woman may bee supreame Gouernesse of the Church in all causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall as Queene Elizabeth was X. That Antichrist shall not be a particular man and that the Pope is Antichrist XI That none but God can forgiue or retaine sinnes XII That we must not confesse our sinnes but onely to God XIII That Pardons and Indulgences were not in vse in the Apostles times XIIII That the Actions and Passions of the Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church XV. That no man can doe workes of Supererâ—gation XVI That by the fall of Adam we haue all lost our free-will and that it is not in our owne power either to choose good or eâ—ill XVII That it is impossible to keepe the Commandements of GOD though assisted with his Grace and the holy Ghost XVIII That onely Faith iustifieth and that good workes are not absolutely necessary to Saluation XIX That no good workes are meritorious XX. That Faith once had cannot be lost XXI That God by his will and ineuitable decree hath ordained from all eternity who shall be damned and who saued XXII That euery man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his saluation and to hold that hee is of the 〈◊〉 her of the praedestinate XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell keeper XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. XXV That we may not pray vnto them XXVI That the Angels cannot helpe us XXVII That no Saint departed hath afterward appeared to any vpon Earth XXVIII That Saints deceased know not what passeth in the Earth XXIX That they pray not for vs. XXX That we may not pray to them XXXI That the bones or reliques of Saints are not to be kept no vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead XXXII That Creatures cannot be sanctified or made more holy then they are already by their owne Nature XXXIII That Children may bee saued by their Parents faith without Baptisme XXXIV That imposition of hands vpon the people called by Catholikes Confirmation is not necessary nor to be vsed XXXV That the bread of the Supper is but a figure of the body of Christ not his body XXXVI That wee ought to receiue vnder both kindes and that one alone sufficeth not XXXVII That sacramentall vnction is not to bee vsed to the Sicke XXXVIII That no interior grace is giuen by the imposition of hands in the Sacrament of holy Orders XXXIX That Priests and other religious persons or any others who haue vowed their chastity vnto God may freely marry notwithstanding their vowes XL. That fasting and abstinence from meates is not grounded on holy Scripture nor causeth any spirituall good XLI That Iesus Christ descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the Soules of
hearty satisfaction he was restored Satisfaction not to God but to the Church whom hee had scandalized by his fall Goe along with Saint Paul and the Primitiue times no man will euer say Blacke is your Eye We haue seene Mathew 18. 18. and 16. 19. once and againe to as little purpose then as now and now as then The name Pardons and the thing your Pardons are two things much differing euery way and yet in neither place auonched is the Name as by your vndertaking for Expresse it should be The thing as much differing as white and blacke Power to binde and loose we denye not wee maintaine and practice it in our Church We may differ in the Execution but Circumstances alter not Nature your proofes may vouch the Thing the right the vse the being but manner fashion execution onely doubted of and to be proued that you touch not See Fathers that list and like to loose their labour In Tertullian I am sure nothing either in the first Chapter of his Booke ad Martyres remembred by some other of your Gossips nor in his fifth which is supplyed out of your store His Booke ad Martyres is very â—â—ort Finde me Pardons and Indulgences there mentioned and I will purchase a Bull from Rome my selfe whatsoeuer it cost me deere enough without doubt That which you haue a minde vnto by direction of others is this as I guesse Quam paâ—em quidam in Ecclesia non habentes à Martyribus in carcere exorare consueuêre Which Peace some not enioying within the Church haue beene accustomed to intreat the Martyrs in Prison for it Peace there is Pardon after the African phrase of Tertullian and Saint Cyprian whom you make your second Father to be seene and whose testimony is almost idem numero with Tertullians The meaning of both as Pamelius no Protestant may enforme you was this Those that had fallen in time of persecution to auoide or eleuate the censure of the Church through their great suite and importunitie often procured letters deprecatory to the Bishop and Clergie whereto they were lyable from Consessors such as were emprisoned for the truth whom those Fathers call Martyrs that so at their intreaty and for their confessions famous in the Church the rigour of discipline might be suspended mitigated or determined and they without more adoe be restored vnto the Church Against this custome in breach of discipline Tertullian and especially Cyprian inueigh most bitterly So then take your choyce either these Fathers cannot be seene to affirme for your purpose or if so auoide it if you can your pardons at the first arising vp in the Church were but abuses and as such resisted exclaimed on condemned as irregular and as impious by the Fathers of those times Tertullian and especially Cyprian and so you haue spun a faire threed either way As for Pope Vrban the second make you merry with him much good may his plenary indulgence for the Holy-Land warre and voyage doe you Aske my fellow if I be a thiefe Vrban graunted such Indulgence I confesse So did Gregorie the seauenth his next Predecessor but one first take vpon him to depose Princes and dispose of their Kingdomes by Apostaticall authoritie No man heard of the one before Gregorie nor of the other before Vrban The eldest aboue 1000. yeares after Christ Vrban the eight that now Popeth it may proclaime a Croisado if hee will and iustifie his fact as well as any other but the true reason holdeth not now The World is growne wiser and men loue money too well to be so cheated of it as their fore fathers were to emptie their owne and fill the Popes Coffers by Croisado cousonages But what a Bayard is this to shew such blockish Ignorance being an vndertaker and that with some contumely against the whole Nation of Protestants Wee are told it was Anno Christi 160. as if there were any Holy warres in those times when as Vrban the first if hee were then borne yet certainely was not Pope many yeares after till 224. aboue 60. yeares betweene As for Vrban the second hee sate in Anno 1088. A foule ouer sight in such an vndertaker for the gagging of all Protestants mouthes for euer But somewhat there was in it that the Cat wincked when both her eyes were out Some wiser more learned and skilfull than himselfe had obserued it seemeth that Vrban the second Founder of these pardons was the 160. Pope in order from Saint Peter and this poore Ignaro meaning well to the Cause to aduance the credite thereof by antique vse thought it had bin a thing so auncient as the yeare 160. at least best to vse a Catholique tricke of piae fraudis to let it goe so For honest good Catholiques must belieue what their Instructors say though they teach that the Snow is blacke so are they hood-wincked in implicite Faith And as for Heretiques no matter if they spie it or what they say poore mis-led Proselites either reade not their answeres good cause why or if they reade them will not belieue them though neuer so plaine and euident Therefore Quicquid in buccam these men may say and write any thing no matter what XIIII That the Actions and Passions of Saints doe serue for nothing vnto the Church MEntiris furcifer a leude lye in imputation of flat impiety They serue for nothing those worthies of Dauid those mightie men of Warre Holy Saint Stephen and his Arriere-ban of valiant Aduenturers in the cause of Christ Iesus that in life and death haue so glorified God and set vp that bloudy banner of our Redemption displayed on the battlements of Death and Hell 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Indeede this was the power of that omnipotent God not to be vttered by the tongue of men which did so inable them vnto such performings saith Iustine himselfe one of that Societie They are our Crowne and our exceeding great reioycing We boast of them and of their noble acts wee commemorate their worths in our common seruice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 said Nazianzen I take it or Basil one of the two and wee take vp that saying whose soeuer it was In doing them honour we delight exceedingly We triumph in the bloud they haue shed for our Sauiour Their acts were recorded for imitation that considering their Precedents and worthy performings wee might be incouraged to follow their example 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 As springing Wels they supply vs continually saith Clemens Alexandrinus What doe they supply vs with all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with commonifaction to shew our selues religious louers of God though with shedding of our bloud To shew forth our Faith with losse of our liues Witnesses they are so is their name Martyres for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to witnesse Credendorum agendorum sustinendorum recipiendorum Of things to be belieued performed indured receiued saith Bonauenture And are these for nothing vnto the Church Did euer any Protestant say or thinke so
likely to see The poore man can afford vs no Fathers heere his reading it seemeth would not reach vnto that and his good Masters were not at hand to help him I could furnish him if hee would thank mee to better purpose then his Scriptures haue but want I suppose he will rather then be beholding to a Protestant To conclude wee will not deny him that Euery man hath his Angell-keeper but within the Church at least not rambling abroad Are they not all of them ministring spirits sent forth to minister To whom where Not to euery man vnder heauen but with restriction Who shall be heyres of saluation In offensiue sort against their foes in defensiue manner for their good Thus the Scriptures speake and no otherwise thus the Fathers taught and no otherwise Not Euery man but Euery Christian man at his Birth or at his Baptisme hath his Guardian Angell deputed to him XXIIII That the holy Angels pray not for vs. WIth Ly and all Sir Gagger Not pray for vs Now I pray you who saith so No man will say or think so that beleeueth in his Creed The communion of Saints and can tell what connexion of the two parts of the Church of the Redeemed there is the one militant heere in Earth the other Regnant and Triumphant in Heauen Now a principall part of that Communion and Society which they haue with vs is to recommend our state and necessities vnto God our Father To which end God Almighty hath as wee professe in our Collect vpon Michaelmas Day appointed the Seruice of men and Angels in a wonderfull sort But somewhat there was or the man mistook Their Praying for vs may bee considered two waies either in Generall or in Particular For the peace of Sion the prosperity of Ierusalem the state and condition of the Church militant in earth thus in generall For Manasses in Captiuity Hezechiah beleaguered by Senacherib For this man or that man in particular vpon speciall motiues and occasions and that likewise two waies either ordinarily and of common course or specially by Delegation in extraordinary seruice Now this Proposition Holy Angels pray for vs doth not limit nor explaine the tearmes but is ambiguous as this peddler most an end frameth all in his Pack to calumniate and to deceiue Whether All Angels pray for All men or All for some men or some for all or some for some who can tell that was not of counsell to his pen and purpose As it lyeth lurking in fraudulent tearmes I can answere both waies and contradictory waies First Holy Angels pray not for vs and truly too Nor shall this Goose hiscere against my answere viz. Not euery holy Angell in speciall for euery man in particular Not at all times vpon any or all occasions I can also answer and truly too Holy Angels pray for vs. And so this Gagger may goe shoo the Goose That is It is a principall part of their performance in Heauen as they magnifie their Maker eternally so to recommend vnto Him vncessantly the Estate and good beeing of the Church of the Redeemed as yet in great Tribulations I adde yet further At all times some of them pray for the particular estate of some priuate Men Cities States Societies or Countries And the Holy Angell-keepers for their speciall charges commended vnto their trust by God at sometime some of them for all for some vpon special occasion employment or designation as extraordinarily they may and doe vndertake Now to come home to your loose laxe affirmation Your expresse words in our Bible are not so expresse as to speake to your purpose that of Zachar. 1. 9. 10. runneth thus O Lord of hosts how long wilt thou net haue mercy vpon Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iuda against which thou hast had indignation these 70 yeeres For it followeth not because this one Angell prayed for Ierusalem in Captiuity any Angel doth pray for any or euery man This was extraordinary your supposall must bee ordinary This was occasionall for his employment your Angels must not bee so allotted Happely this was their Angell-Guardian Michael Prince of the Synagogue Pleade thus for Angell-keepers none will gayn-say you They pray for vs no question at all This was in a peculiar case for restoring Ierusalem and Iuda according to promise in appointed time 70 yeeres designed by the Prophets So the question was idle like your selfe Whether this were not a Prayer The question well ordred should haue beene Whether All Angels at all times doe not in particular pray for euery particular man as this Angell heere did for Sion To the former wee answere positiuely Yea to the second negatiuely No. Nor can this instance euict that Tobie 12. 12. Raphael telleth Tobias thus When thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter-in-law I did bring the remembrance of your praiers before the Holy One. First what an Addle-head are you that trump in the Protestants way with this Testimony which your Masters can tell you for happely your ignorance knoweth not so much they esteem of no otherwise than a Talmudicall Tale Secondly how can you accord this Tale with your owne Tenents Raphael both speaketh heer as their Angell-keeper and carrieth himself so in that whole negotiation Raphael was of the highest Hierarchy next to Michael and Gabriel in your account Your selues teach that Angels of that Hierarchie are not Custodes nor imploied vnto men but all imployed ordinarily are of the inferiour and lowest rank Riddle me riddle mee what is this You told vs of one that could vntie knots let him vntie this or cut it in pieces for it troubleth vs not a little That Angell Reuel 8. 4. from whose hands the smoke of incense ascended which is expressed to haue been the prayers of Saints who was he can you tell mee whether the Angell of the Couenant Christ Iesus himself or Michael the Protector of the Church do you knowe or some other Angell are you assured Was his imployment ordinary or extraordinary can any tell Mysticall you may be sure this Passage is and can you draw Arguments from such Testimonies Your great vnderstanding doth happely think Yea the common resolution is for Nay But howsoeuer the praiers of all Saints that is of the Church were offred to God in the hands of an Angell their Mediator therefore All Angels pray for all men or some Angels for some men ordinarily I deny the necessity of this doctrine When you say more you shall heare further but much more I beleeue you cannot for you fail of your wonted Cue See more and See Fathers that affirm it neither Scripture nor Fathers heer In Conclusion from whence drew you forth this imputation that The holy Angels pray not for vs For Bellarmine your Polstar and Cynosura in point of Controuersie doth confesse It is not denied that Sancti and so Angell orant pro nobis saltem in genere secundum Scriptur as And those that assent as most doo aâ— the
Church of England doth vnto Angell-keepers will not stand with you for it that orant pro nobis not onely in genere but in particulari Your desire is onely for priuate aduantage to keep a Faction on foot and therefore you flutter in dubious tearms Holy Angels pray not for vs which is or true or false as it may be taken XXV That we may not pray vnto them PRay to them if you like it or to Saint Loiola if you please we cannot hinder you from playing the fools and exposing your selues to bee laughed-at for your labours I say as Iosua sometime said in a case not very much vnlike Call vpon what Saints or Angels you will go serue Baal or Astaroth if you fansie it We in the Church of England will call vnto the Lord of Heauen and Earth by immediate addresse without intercession of Mediators hauing warrant most sufficient by direction and inuitation Psalm 50. 15. Call vpon me in the time of trouble so I will beare thee and deliuer thee Doo you knowe any man so vnaduised that will go about when hee may well go streight or will sue for assistance and that also vncertain when he needeth none Perhaps there is no such great impiety in saying Sancte Laurenti ora pro me but in my opinion till I am better informed it is grand foolery to say Sancta Catharina ora pro me where I may say cum effectu vnto God himself Miserere mei Deus Lord haue mercy vpon me If you might haue accesse vnto his Holinesse at pleasure would you vse the mediation of Cardinall Barberino if there bee any such though the Pope's Nephew I suppose not if you did I say no more but The Vicar of Saint Fooles be your ghostly father But our Bible is against our Doctrine In good time how so For Iacob saith Gen. 48. 16. The Angell which redeemed mee you read deliuereth mee from all euill blesse these Lads where first you bely your owne reading You read Angelus qui er uit me Is that deliuereth in the present Tense in your Grammar It is to all but you in the Time past that hath deliuered Now what such difference that it should bee noted betwixt deliuered and redeemed indeed that hath taken me out Secondly read it how you will it is not to purpose You propose it thus That we may not you proue the lawfulnes quia factum so you may proue theft murder and what not It is a priuate fact of Iacob there related by Moses and the Acts no not of the best men are no rules of actions vnto others We should liue by Precept not by Practice Our Sauiour said not What seest thou but What readest thou But thirdly I will take no such exception I admit it ruleable euery way Iacob did well wee may doo so as Iacob did and yet not pray to Angels Therefore fourthly I answer contradictorily to your inference This is not spoken to but of an Angell secondly not of a created Angel but of Christ Thirdly Christ is a true Angell This Fellow must go learn to speak before hee write what to put in Print before hee publish it to vnderstand Diuinity before he babble in it Is Christ an Angell and not a true one Is he a false or a counterfet Angell in appearance in collusion not in substance Who euer heard such Stuffe from a Priest's lips Christ is an Angell not created a true Angell of an higher alloy Prince of Angels as of men a mighty Angell The Angell of the Couenant And this was spoken of him by the Patriarch Iacob The God of Bethel as hee is called that spake with Iacob in Bethel and met him there who wrastled with him who blessed him who told not his name being secret spoken of him by commemoration not vnto him by inuocation That Angell which deliuered mee blesse these The man had I knowe not how some intimation from some other that we would reply that this Angell heer specified as indeed wee beleeue it was Christ himself and no created Angell and therefore to gag our mouthes hee preuents our answer that in the opinion of Saint Basil Chrysostome and Hierome it was not Christ but a created Angell and therefore who for shame can say he praied not to him Wisely I warrant you as if it could not bee auoyded but he was then prayed vnto because in the opinion of these men hee was a created Angell which is no consequence except it were granted that none but created Angels were to bee prayed vnto on any hand at any time vpon any occasion Now who for shame will thus reason to shame himselfe but hee that eyther is past shame or through ignorance not capable of it It is good to vncase such a Mountebanke that he may be knowne what he is But I go from him to this the point in question These Fathers opined That Angel was not Christ but a created Angel and what then As if as many were not of a contrary opinion But were it not so no more can be collected then this that in some mens opinioÌ„ Iacob spake of a created angel thence in some mens opinion not by any expresse words of our Bibles which we were promised to haue this was not Christ Which if it were so as this Gagger can neuer proue it so I will vndertake against him if hee dare yet wee answer first Then it was Iacobs Guardian at least as Tostatus and Iesuites that I haue seene imagine Now the case of Angels-keepers in point of Aduocation Inuocation is much different from other Angels not Guardians as being continually attendant alway at hand though inuisibly therfore though we might say Sancte Angele Custos ora pro me it followeth not we may say Sancte Gabriel ora pro me But lastly heere is no Inuocation nor Intercession nor praying vnto any Angell Custos or not Custos ordinary or extraordinarily attendant It is a desire directed by Iacob vnto God to send his Angel for that seruice and employment to blesse keep those Lads It is no addresse vnto that Holy Angel whosoeuer he was Which being so so far from express words pretended were not this fellow past all shame he would shame to say Iacob prayed vnto an Angel But of this and this Question elsewhere more at large Thither gang this Gaggler and I shall gag him I am sure in this point of praying vnto Angels and Saints XXVI That the Angels cannot help vs. SEale vp thy Lips for euer thou lying tongue Said euer any Protestant Angels cannot helpe vs Name mee the man that may thus bee blotted or hot burning coles bee thy portion thou Lyer and misborne Elâ—e of the Father of lies It is contrary indeed to expresse words of our owne Bibles not alone in the places rightly produced but many moe and more to purpose then some of these are contrary to sense reason beliefe and experience contrary to our teaching our
is a Dream the proof a Dream a Dreamer related it a Dreamer recorded it and a Dreamer doth tell beleeue it So Qui amant ipsi sibi somnia fingunt men are apt to beleeue Dreams when the Dream is for their purpose Admit it no Dream let it be a story and res gesta Ieremy might wel pray for them in generall as hauing not forgot them in Heauen whom he did know vpon earth In some particular he might eyther by extraordinary relation or Diuine Reuelation or howsoeuer and yet you be farre enough from building your imagined deuice from thence that therefore we may pray vnto them if yet you were able to make it good how Ieremy then in Limbo for this was before Christ harrowed hell and therefore farre enough from God could pray for the Iewes as he is said who might as soone and as wel pray for themselues as he might and were in possibility to be heard as soone as he For the Text of Ier. 15. 1. Though Moses and Samuel stood before mee yet my minde could not bee towards this people I haue acquainted you with what I think thereof elsewhere You adde out of Bellarmine touching Hierom in his Comment vpon that place and Saint Gregory 9. of his Morals 12. that they gather how Moses and Samuel after their death both could and did sometimes pray for the same people Bellarmine addeth Chrysostome How is hee omitted Did you forget him for you looked vpon all alike secure what any of them or all of them said more then was tendred to your hands First Hierome in his Comment saith thus nor more nor lesse Hos enim legimus irae Domini pro populo restitisse et iam impendeniem auertisse sententiam Etsi inquit illi steterint vel in conspectu meo vel contra me quorum vni dixit Deus Dimitte me et percutiam populum istum tamen non exaudiam quoniam consummata sunt scelera populi delinquentis For wee reade that these men in the peoples case and their defence opposed against the wrath of God and put by the sentence ready to bee put into execution Although saith hee that these men shall stand eyther in my presence or against me vnto one of which God sometime said Let me alone and I will smite this people yet I will not heare because the sinnes of this wicked people are consummate Now from which of these words doth your wisdome collect that Hierome made his conclusion that Moses and Samuel beeing both dead could yet and also did pray for that people It is to bee gathered they did it sometime Sometime in their life they did it it may bee gathered because it is cleere But this beeing dead is a glosse of your owne an addition to Hierom that corrupteth Hierome It dropt from your pen hee hath it not That which is to bee collected from thence is If Moses and Samuel who liuing appeased Gods wrath to the people were now againe aliue and should pray for this people as sometime they did yet I would not bee intreated now of them as I was then nor giue way to their petitions as then I did because now The iniquity of the Ammonite is fully ripe the sinnes of this people are now consummate which then were but growing in the blade Your Horse or your Asse though like your selfe in vnderstanding would not so conclude if as Balaam's Asse once did the poore beast could speake as worthily you doe and like your selfe If an Horse or an Asse should pray c. You would haue said bray that is fitter for such an Animal as you Saint Gregory saith lesse Moral 9. 12. For he but onely repeateth the Text of Ieremie and enquireth why the Prophet did rather insist vpon Moses and Samuel then any other And his answere thereto is Because they especially prayed for their persecutors This is all that I can finde no prouender for your Asse or Oxe if you can meet with any more let me knowe it and you shall vnderstand my minde thereof onely this almost forgotten in him though I put it home to you before not much to your purpose noâ— thank-worthy that Saint Gregory did not dreame as Iudas Macchabeus did of any Intercession by dead men but concâ—iued it thus that if they were then liuing they should not preuaile with God as they had done sometimes Quid est ergo in difficultate deprecandi Mosen et Samuel deducere nisi apertius indicare quia eius ira neque illi obsisterent si astarent What meaneth the Prophet to mention such difficultie in obtaining for Moses and Samuel but onely this to make is cleere that euen they should not abide or resist his wrath if they then stood before him as once they did Thirdly Chrysostome yet striketh it further dead against you which maketh me imagine some more aduised who had peraduenture looked on the place left out this testimony though Bellarmine had appealed to him For hee commeth home against you indeed To. 4. pa. 165. of our Eâ—on Edition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Short but sweet and to purpose Therefore if this man were now aliue and should speake thus hee should not for all that preuaile Doe you mark you haue wished vs to note more then once Were hee now liuing Nothing to purpose of hearing in Heauen or vnderstanding so wheresoeuer hee were This Text is for liuing not dead men for their Prayers not Intercession of these in opinion of Chrysostome Baruch 3. 4. thus wee reade O Lord Almighty thou God of Israel heare now the Prayers of the dead Israelites wee reade say you of the dead of Israel Therefore the dead Israelities prayed for the liuing that you had you been efemore Iacob might not absolutely turne foole These dead Israelites must needs then bee in Limbo when they prayed for their brethren Some information there they must needs then haue had by some Currire but who was Hee Qui fas per limen vtrumque solus habet that was so imployed vnto Limbus Patrum For the resolution of your Schooles is if Bellarmine doe not mis-informe vs That because the Saints and holy men who died before Christ came in the flesh did not enter into Heauen did not see God nor could by any ordinary meanes vnderstand the prayers of such as sued vnto them therefore it was not vsed in the old Testament to say Holy Abraham pray for vs but men prayed themselues by themselues vnto God and alleaged the merits of Saints that were already dead that by their merits their prayers might finde accesse Thus that great Vndertaker of all Protestant Aduersaries thereby cutting the throat of Inuocation Aduocation and Intercession in the old Testament putting you off from all your recited Texts at once of Baruch Ieremie Iudas Dream and all And what are you Pumillo to that great man-at-Armes What is your word that we should beleeue you The dead Israelites praied for the liuing You tould vs of Harps but euen
be feared at your own weapoÌ„s euen vpon your most aduantage Let it be Turn vnto some of the Saints yet haue you no more but opinion and the opinion you most follow of new birth hatched first by Aquinas as may bee collected For as for Saint Augustines expounding it as Catholiques do I will let the Reader see and then judge One of your owne saith Pineda on the place Some take it spoken ironically and so it is for your purpose is it not By which is meant nothing lesse Alij seriò others take it spoken in good earnest but not therefore as aduising Inuocation Call saith Caietan vnto some of the dead let him be a man that hath liued most vnblameably put him to defend thy cause Assuredly not any will make answer because they are not their soules hauing diâ—d together with the bodies Cardinall Luther's great Antagonist was so farre from imagining any custome of Inuocation in the time of Iob which Bellarmine likewise denieth that he supposeth Eliphas to haue been an Atheist and to deny the soules immortality and what be commeth of your custome of Inuocation in his opinion in the time of Iob Eugubinus by Saints vnderstandeth holy men aliue and by Call not Inuocation but Allocution or naming of them And with him accord Philippus Presbyter and Polychronius as it may be collected by your owne Pineda Others by Saints mean holy Angels but present imployed to bee spoken to as apparitions were then frequent among those holy men either Leiger or extraordinarily imployed Angels Lyra runs another course not to the Persons but Precedents of Saints Reuolue the remembrance of Ages past as if Eliphas has said so and go consider the liues actions of holy men thou shalt finde them discussed exceedingly all but not impatient in affliction any of them In such diuersity of opinions and greater than this to conclude for Inuocation assertiuely none can none will but men like your self quiâ—us anima prosale S. Thomas alone must ouersway all because as Pineda confesseth he was the first that applied it to Inuocation Tandem sapienter D. Thomas sententiam hanc ad inuocationem pertinere voluit After all other Expositors saith Pineda he would haue it belong to inuocation of Saints Therefore put vp your Pipes for Saint Augustine singing that Catholique Song S. Augustine's words are these Indignatio quâ quisque angitur tanquam iniquè sibi aliquid acciderit dum non cogitat vsque adeò se immundum esse coram Dâ—â— vt innocanti Angeli non respondeant aut se demonstrare dignati sint qui enim hoc 〈◊〉 cogiâ—at stultus est irâ irrationabili interimitur Aut idcirco Angelos non audire non videre potest stultus quia ir â interemptus à zelo occisus Indignation saith he expounding the second verse which vexeth a man as if he were hardly dealt withall whilst he doth not remember that in Gods fight he is so vnclean that the Angels vouchsafe not to appear vnto him or giue him any answer when he calleth for them He that thinketh not so is a fool and killed of wrath Or thus A fool cannot heare or see the Angels because anger and wrath haue euen slain him Thus Saint Augustine in those Annotations bringeth a double exposition of those words in both according to the Septuagints reading whom hee followeth by Saints he vnderstandeth not men departed and with God as the Catholiques since Thomas doo interpret it but Angels of Paradise Secondly hee is not for calling vpon them for how could he if he held Bellarmine's Rule for Sancte Abraham but vnto them How As familiarly conuersing with them in those daies as often appearing and talking with them his very words either Guardians or otherwise Let it bee so now Saint Peter Saint Paul appear conuerse with demonstrate themselues to vs for my part I will speak to them to remember my necessities or cause to God as I would to your self or any other Christian for your Praiers or the Churches Thus what get you by Saint Augustine or your owne Bible I list see no more I haue seen enough already the vtmost I am sure that you can say and what I haue seen I haue satisfied already both in Scriptures and Fathers elsewhere These very places you haue named and many others I will not as you vse is actum agere onely this for your better direction or information in this point of Iouocation or rather Intercession through Allocution we do not we dare not pray to Saints that is speak to them or intreat them to pray for vs not for vnlawfulnesse of the act so much as for vnaptnes of the Agent for we are not perswaded nor can it be proued vnto vs by any Romish Catholick liuing that the Saints departed and now with God doo or can ordinarily by any power or ability in themselues hear see knowe take notice of the wants state cases or praiers of men on earth to be mindefull of them vnto God in heauen Nor can it bee prooued that otherwise God doth ordinarily reueal vnto them by any means those former specified that so they may take notice of them This must be prooued or it is in vain to pray to them vnlesse a man will hazard his state and all vpon vncertainties It sufficeth not that they knowe some things at some times in some places of some men extraordinarily for so wee are vncertain what Saints knowe what how much when by what means and so may well be blamed of folly for going about when wee may go direct vnto them when we may go to God Saue all other labour in this point prooue but onely this Their knowledge of any thing ordinarily I promise you straight I will say Holy Saint Mary pray for me till then you must pardon vs Protestants for not playing the fools with you XXXI That the bones or Reliques of Saints are not to bee kept No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead YOu may keepe if you will and lock vp if you please in your Cabinet or Calket or where you will Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Loiolaes hayre which cured if I remember Michael Vasques of I know not what or that goodly Relique which at Denham once in Sir George Peckhams house courst the diuell vp and downe from Anne Smiths foot ouer all her body the Priest following Him with his hand vp and downe wheresoeuer the Spirit went And further take Saint Lipsius old breeches to shrine them in and the vertue that did or might drop from them our Lady of Sichem will perhaps lend them to so holy and deuout a purpose I know no Protestant will steale them from you But ad Textum as Marcellinus vseth to say your Texts of Scripture I meane As all the rest so this also is contrary to expresse words of our owne Bibles This say I but what Why two things are prooued or should be First that Reliques may
scripturis spiritualibus existentibus quaedam quidem absoluamus secundum gratiam Dei quaedam ante commendemus Deo If so be in the workes of Creation some keepe close vnto God in secret some are apprehended and vnderstood by vs what hurt or inconuenience is it if in Scripture all Scripture being spirituall there be something contayned which through assistance of Gods grace we can goe through with and againe some thing that we must leaue vnto God Iust the doctrine of the Protestants that some things may bee vnderstood some things past our vnderstanding Non solum in hoc saeculo so it followeth there sed et in futuro Not onely in this world but that to come that God may euer teach man euer learne of God The waters of Silo some where runne pleasantly and may be passed in other some places not foordable Origen singeth the same Protestant song and that in moe places then one of his bookes against Celsus as lib. 5. twise hom 14. vpon Exodus and other where The place you meane lib. 7. contra Celsum I thinke is this For you could not tell whereabout or what it was because your good founder C. W. B. failed you Celsus being a Pagan and an Epicure as happily you are made the same obiection I am sure which you doe now pag. 345. edit Graec-Lat that the Scripture was obscure and vncertaine the sense and meaning not to be found out by wise men so that the ignorant and indiscreet abused it at pleasure More then which no liuing Iesuite could haue said No Protestant would answere a Iesuite otherwise then Origen doth vnto that Pagan Celsus Certe ipsi Prophetae quicquid erat opus mox ab Auditoribus intelligi et quicquid ad corrigendos mores faciebat absque vllis involucris proposuerunt ijs ita vt Deus voluit The Prophets themselues expounded to their Auditors anon whatsoeuer was for them to be vnderstood and whatsoeuer serued to make them good men that they proposed vnto them as Gods will was they should plainly without obscurity at al. Had the Protestants feed him hee could not haue spoken more fully and to purpose in their cause and yet he proceedeth to declare why Figures Parables and Allegories are vsed therein a long discourse to purpose pag. 345. See him that will It is not denied Saint Ambrose Ep. 44. to Constantius compareth the holy scriptures vnto a Sea and calleth them a depth of Propheticall riddles Mare est scriptura diuina habens in se sensus profundos altitudinem Propheticorum aenigmatum in quod mare plurima introierunt flumina But not all scripture in his opinion is that Sea onely Propheticall riddles are that Sea beside which diuersa sunt scripturarū fluenta as he addeth diuers streames brooks shallowes and currents be in the scripture Habes quod primū bibas habes quod secundum habes quod postremum Scripture fitted to euery capacity I know no Protestant that wil aske more Saint Hierome is next who out of Bellarmines obseruations could haue afforded vs three places moe and more materiall from whence this mans director tooke his store and rather should he haue taken any testimony then this if he vnderstood the credit of his witnesse For the commentaries vpon the Epistles extant vnder Saint Hicromes name be none of his but are the Collections of Pelagius the Hereticke as not Protestants say but Papists of name and note Catharme Senensis Pererius Bellarmine and Victorius Marianus Such an aduocate we neede not enuie our aduersary Much good may Pelagius the Heretickes testimony doe him But let him passe for Saint Hierome there is not any thing to purpose spoken by him That which he saith is this He had studied the Scriptures much and long had conference with diuers learned men all his time about the sense thereof and had purposely vndertaken a iourney vnto Didymus at Alexandria vt ab eo in scripturis omnibus quae habebam dubia sciscitarer Therefore what First this Didymus at least vnderstood all scripture or how could he resolue all the doubts of scripture what needed Hierome to haue gone so long a iourney vnto him therfore scripture al of it is to be vnderstood Secondly vnto Hierome all scripture was not hard he proposed vnto him the doubts he had which implyeth they were not infinite not all scripture obscure or doubted of therefore thirdly this proueth the Protestant opinion true that the Scriptures are some of them easie enough to be vnderstood Saint August Ep. 119. cap. 21. saith somewhat more For he descendeth vnto Comparison and saith The things of holy scripture which I know not are many moe then those which I know Such was his humility to say so like vnto Saint Paul in the same case who knew nothing and yet your selfe Sir a man of lesse skill then Saint Augustine not to be named the same day with him if you should goe and make a list of the particular verses in the scripture which you vnderstand and of those you vnderstand not I doe not doubt but those would be more then these and yet further these being so he might iustly and truely say so of all almost For of one and the same place there may be moe senses then one yea euen literall senses and intended by the holy Ghost so that knowing one sense perhaps primary and naturall he may be ignorant of the other and thus all Scripture may be hard Saint August opinion was indeed no other then our opinion is as appeareth in Ep. 100. to Volusianus Tanta est Christianarum profunditas literarū c. Such and so great is the depth of Christian scriptures that I might still euery day learne and profit by them informe my selfe of that I know not before if so bee that at most leysure with my vtmost paines and trauell indowed with as good a wit as any man can haue I should set my selfe to learne them and them alone from my very infancy to decrepite age Hitherto Saint August in appearance for the Papist now insueth for the Protestant Not s◠but that the things absolutely necessary to Saluation are compassed with much losse difficulty and vnderstood But when a man hath once resolued his Faith in them without which no man can liue well and godlily those men that will goe forward with greater proficiency shall meete with so many things in such wise shadowed with mysticall meanings so great proofe and depth of wisedome therein couched not onely in the words which set forth the things vnto vs and to our vnderstanding but also in the things vnderstood Insomuch as that auncient students of pregnant wit of vnwearied pains doe find it verrified in themselues here which the same scripture hath in a certaine place Sirac 18. 7. When a man hath done then is he to beginne So truly doth Saint August resolue for either opposite part who haue shared the Truth betwixt them This was the doctrine once euen of
the Roman Church For Saint Gregory vpon the 6. of Ezechiel said If the vnderstanding of holy scripture were playne to all men it would come in time to bee of no reckoning Where hee giueth a reason of that obscurity that is in it Who yet vpon the 6. of Iob more atfull interpreteth his owne meaning thus Sacra scriptura cibus est in locis obscurioribus quia quasi exponendo frangitur et mandendo glutitur Potus vero est in locis apertioribus quià ita sorbetur sicut invenitur The holy Scripture is Meate in the more obscure places because in the expounding thereof it is broken as it were and in chewing swallowed Drinke it is in the more perspicuous places because it is as easily swallowed downe as it is found Thus the doctrine and beliefe of the Roman Church was sometime Scripture in some places is hard in some places easie Hath that Church now forsaken her former faith if not we differ not for we maintaine the easinesse of holy Scripture no otherwise then Saint Gregory the Pope did This Goose may fit the Gagge for his Ganders mouth the Gospell will soone enough be rid of it II. That in matters of faith wee must not relye vpon the iudgement of the Church and of her Pastors but onely vpon the written Word I Know no such tenent exclusiuely I know no such Assertion negatiuely the Church of England hath no such faith as this You set vp a Shawfoule for a marke and shoot your bolt at it your selfe alone In our 11. Article put on your spectacles and see if you can reade it we professe The Church hath authority in controuersies of Faith The written word of God is the Rule of Faith with vs. And hath beene so with all our Fathers of old Vnto the Law and vnto the Prophets was a direction of a perpetuall Morallity and is continued in that of our Sauiour Ioh. 5. Search the Scriptures for in them you hope to haue eternall life A rule absolute in it selfe a rule most sufficient vnto vs for that end entended To make the man of God perfect in euery good worke Sufficiunt sanctae et diuinitus inspiratae scripturae saith Athanasius ad omnem institutionem veritatis Truth is of two sorts amongst men manifest and confessed truth or more obscure and inuolued truth In his quae aperte posita sunt in scripturis inveniâ—ntur illa omnia quae continent fidem moresque viuendi spem scilicet charitatem Plainely deliuered in Scripture are all those poynts which belong vnto Faith and manners Hope and Charity to wit And accordingly I doe know no obscurity vpon these I know none of these controuerted inter partes the Articles of our Creede are confessed on both sides and held plaine enough The controuerted poynts are of a larger and an inferiour alloy of them a man may be ignorant without any danger of his soule at all A man may resolue or oppose this way or that way without perill of perishing for euer Now if a question be moued iuris controuersi in controuerted matters who shall decide and settle the doubt you say The Church and so say I nay so say we You say wee say the Scriptures but without the Church that is each priuate mans opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures euen against the Church No such thing Sir you mistake vs. We say the Church must doe it explaining declaring resoluing the Scriptures as the direction is from God himselfe to purpose Deut. 17. 8. and as your Texts and Fathers doe pretend it and no otherwise And yet the Scripture may well be called iudge As the Law determineth Controuersies betwixt man and man In plaine cases iuris positiui no deciding Iudge or legall proceeding shall neede But such as are iuris ambigui controuersi must be determined by the Court by the Iudge according vnto Law So is it in Scripture according to the Protestants opinion In points of Faith they disclaime not the iudgement of the Church nor yet appeale to Scripture alone vnderstood by themselues without a iudge but referre it vnto the Church And they haue reason for it enough seeing Gods Word and the ancient practise of the Catholike Church that is both Law and Iudge are both for them In the name of the Church of England I will be tried thereby and maintaine it against all Papists liuing Take one for all Cyril of Hierusalem in his fourth Catechisme saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In any poynt concerning the diuine and holy mysteries of our Faith not any the least thing must be tendred without warrant of diuine Scripture And he addeth Belieue mee not that speake and deliuer these things vnto you vnlesse for proofe of them I doe bring plaine and euident demonstration out of diuine Writ Was this man a Protestant or a Papist Those Bibles he had then which we haue now and it seemeth that addressing his owne beliefe and doctrine accordingly varied not in iudgement any whit from vs who make Scripture the rule of our beliefe And in doubtfull poynts that require determination appeale vnto the Catholique Church for iudgement in that Rule This is not contrary to any deduction from much lesse to the expresse words of our owne Bible Matt. 23. 2. The Scribes Pharises sit in Moses Chaire all therfore whatsoeuer they bid you obserue that obserue and doe Therefore c. Doe you finde eyther Faith or Iudgement Pastors or Church expresly named in this text Looke once more and looke back vpon your vndertaking Their refutation by expresse words of their owne bible For words expresse you faile vndertaking more than you can performe an ordinary tricke of Catholike Braggadochioes Let vs see if Consequents will hold the tewghing any better Those that answere the Church and her Pastors in your Thesis are the Scribes Pharises in your proofe who whole and some head and taile be Doctors and Pastors of the Church with you But of the Church of Rome it must be supposed for wee disclaime any Conformation at all with them And doe you suppose that our Sauiour approued them so well as that hee would haue had the Iewes in matters of Faith to relye vpon them and their decisions as Pastors of the Church in points of Faith If this were his meaning what meant he then to giue warning elsewhere Take heede of the leauen of the Pharises that is as the holy Ghost expoundeth it Of their doctrine If the question had bin put Art thou the Christ would he haue sent them vnto the Scribes or Pharises for resolution or aduised the people to belieue on them we finde it not practised the contrary we doe What then is this text in consequence vnto the poynt Surely hee meant no more but this and in that hee will declare himselfe a Protestant Whatsoeuer they bid you obserue out of Moses obserue that is so long as they teach but Scripture they must he heard if there they faile
from all thy sinnes If this be acknowledged the Doctrine of our Communion Booke and practice of our Church accordingly as it is iniurious are those opposites vnto truth and lyers against their owne knowledge that impute it to vs which wee are confessed to deny That none but God can forgiue sinnes This must proceede out of faction or that which is worse But this fellow proceedeth vpon a further extreamity to strengthen a truth in it selfe with a lye made by himselfe that our Doctrine is contrary to our Bibles Matth. 9. 3. 8. To proue against vs that which we deny not viz. this power delegated vnto Priesthood thus you alledge But when the multitude saw it they maruailed and glorified God who had giuen such power vnto men as to forgiue sins Which words As to forgiue sinnes are not in our Bibles out of which you vndertake to proue your Assertion Nor in your owne Bibles follow which you will You haue added them out of your store to serue your owne turne contrary to Scripture and further contrary to sense Because that thing which amazed them then for which they glorified God was a thing sensible visible apprehended of all When they saw it Now see sinnes forgiuen they could not heare it pronounced belieue it they might Secondly the power there giuen is not ordinary as that of absolution is but extraordinary and miraculous to heale the sicke Peter and his Successour had that but very few or none had this You know it was answered a Pope once when he shewed a masse of Gold and Siluer to one and added The Church could not say now Siluer and Gold haue I none No quoth the other Nor can it say Arise and walke This is that power there mentioned could you see it not that of Absolution ordinary That of Ioh. 20. 21. Matth. 16. 19. Giue that power vnto the Apostles to forgiue sinnes But may it not be excepted it was a personall priuiledge I answere not so for I belieue it not The collation was originall to them as to those from whom it was to be conueyed vnto others But some are happely of that opinion and it may seeme probable vnto others you should haue cleared the Texts of that obiection and then your performance had beene to purpose Matth. 16. 19. May be vnderstood you meane of sinnes forgiuen but yet only secondarily for thesi secunda Because we reade in the Euangelist whatsoeuer and not whomsoeuer this place is to be vnderstood of any knot whatsoeuer indeede rather of the power of the sword than of the keyes And it seemeth that if this place be not personall to Peter and his successors as by this allegation for forgiuing it neither is nor can be then our most holy Father hath lost a maine pillar of his Papacy peculiar to Saint Peter and his successours So these Madianites sheath their swords one in anothers sides and crosse themselues in their owne positions In Matth. 18. 18. The Text is so expresse to the purpose that Origen Chrysostome Theophilact and Anastasius vnderstand it of all Christians whomsoeuer that sundry Roman Catholiques if Maldonate deceiue vs not vnderstand it of no more than ciuill policy Goe take it Whatsoeuer you binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer you loose in Earth it shall be loosed in Heauen as your selues will for the power and execution of the keyes Wee deny not in any sort that power is giuen vnto mortall men to forgiue sinnes on earth nor to binde by excommunication which is frequently practised and peraduenture too frequently amongst vs. Vnto that 1 Cor. 5. 5. Artic. 33. thus wee subscribe That person who by open denunciation of the Church is rightly cut off from the vnity of the Church and excommunicated ought to be auoyded and to be taken of the whole multitude of the faithfull as an Heathen and a Publican vntill hee be openly reconciled by penance and receiued into the Church by a Iudge that hath authoritie thereunto And in this sort Saint Paul deliuered Hymenaeus and Alexander 1 Timoth. 1. 20. and forgaue the incestuous Corinthian 2 Cor. 2. 10. Which places by your direction wee haue seene and finde the Article agreeing with them As for 2 Cor. 5. 19. It is not to purpose of forgiuing sinnes by delegated authority vnto a Priest but of Reconciling by the whole office and function of the ministry God was in Christ saith the Apostle and reconciled the world vnto himselfe not imputing their sinnes vnto them and hath committed to vs the word of reconciliation So wee haue seene eyther nothing at all to purpose or else that of which wee made no question nor yet doe any at all As little in Fathers that affirme the same Irenaeus Lib. 5. cap. 14. saith the raising of Lazarus from death to life was a Symbole or figure of our Resurrection from Sinne to God Hee saith no more that I can see or finde Ambrose Lib. 1. it should be de paenitent cap. 7. Nor August Tract 49. in Iohn Nor Gregor hom 26. in Euangel if wee may belieue Bellarmine Lib. 3. de paenitent cap. 3. from whom you transcribed these testimonies without considering of these Fathers in their owne workes but so carelessely that if you were a Schoole-Boy lures in corpore for you referre vs to Gregor hom 26. in Euangel Whereas Bellarmine hath it 6. and to Ambrose Lib. de paenitentia as if Saint Ambrose had written but one Booke of that Argument not diuided into Chapters whereas Bellarmine directed you aright to the seauenth Chapter of his 1. Booke Was this securitie stupiditie or insolency in you or what was it XII That wee must not confesse our Sinnes but onely vnto God THat wee must not implyeth a flat negatiue or iniunction rather vnto the contrary Shew mee any such inhibition and I will say which I belieue you neuer will deserue at any Protestants hands you are a true dealing and an honest man Otherwise you are that you are and so will be still The most that hath beene saide is that priuate confession is free not tyed and therefore suus positiui not diuini Therefore happely of conueniency not of absolute necessity That in a priuate Confession vnto a Priest a peculiar enumeration of all Sinnes both of commission and omission with all circumstances and accidents is neuer necessary necessarily most an end not expedient nor yet all things considered required It is confessed that all Priests and none but Priests haue power to forgiue sinnes It is confessed that priuate Confession vnto a Priestâ— is of very ancient practice in the Church of excellent vse and practise being discreetly handled Wee refuse it to none if men require it if neede be to haue it We vrge it and perswade it in extreames Wee require it in case of perplexitie for the quieting of men disturbed and their consciences It hath beene so acknowledged by your fellowes that in the visitation of the sicke it is
of these Holy Saints of God For shame speake truth and shame the Deuill the Father of lyes and such lying Libellers as our Gagger But belike it is for nothing which is not for your purpose And therefore whatsoeuer Protestants doe thinke and teach and esteeme of the life and actions the death and Passions of those holy Saints of Christ it is nothing because that they build not vp thence a Magazin nor store-house for the Church nor supply other mens defects by their superfluities that the Holy Father may thereby mugle men and fill his 〈◊〉 coffers by lifting law A thing so improbable for that fained treasury that as Bellarmine confesseth some of the Schoolemen as Maironis and Durand haue not approued it Which they durst not haue done had Saint Paul beene of that minde and tendred that Doctrine Colos 1. 24. I reioyce in my sufferings for you and fill vp that which is behinde you reade wanting and reade so if you list of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his bodies sake which is the Church Whence if you say true the ground of Indulgences hath euer beene And you meane since there were Indulgences heard off For the time was in the Protestants opinion at least that no such thing was in being which yet I maruaile much it so should be and that many writing of that argument haue not so much as dreamed thereof and many no Protestants expound it otherwise Osorius a Iesuite in his Sermons saith Quid deest passioni Christi nisi vt nos similia patiamur What can be wanting to the suffering of Christ but onely this that wee in like sort suffer with him Paul suffered much indured much yet was hee not perfect if himselfe say true and for the Church of Christ to giue them example to strengthen and confirme them in what they had receiued from him filled vp the measure appointed for him in conformitie to the sufferings of Christ Iesus Barradas another of that same Society Tom. 3. vpon the Gospels Quod ad sufficientiam attinet nihil deerat passioni Cruci Christi The Crosse and sufferings of Christ were all sufficiency and that way naught wanted vnto his passion Vt tamen efficax esâ—et Crux app 〈…〉 tio praedicatio laboribus plena deerat Ideo Paulus â—it se adimplere quae desunt passionum Christi quia per multos labores Euangelium gentibus praedicabat And yet to make the Crosse and sufferings of Christ effectuall there wanted application of it by Preaching A thing laborious and exceding painefull For which cause Paul saith that hee filleth vp or supplyeth if you will that which was wanting vnto the sufferings of Christ for as much as with great paynes hee preached the Gospell vnto the Gentiles Differences there may be amongst Interpreters but none not partialists take it so as to make vp a Store-house for the Church out of Christs sufferings supplied by Saint Paul For so it must be admit this Magazin and we must admit a supply a supply is not but vpon insufficiency Can a man without blasphemie babble thus Christs imperfect a d insufficient sufferings were made vp and supplyed by Saint Paul In the merits of Christ there are no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 comming short remaines or as you will call them wants For if so I say no more but how can your selfe call them superabundant as you doe and as they are The Text should speake expressely if you kept your wo 〈…〉 for making vp a store for the Church in time of need which is so farre from expressely doing that as that not obscurely it insinuateth what you pretend no not in the interpretations of no Babes vpon your owne partie Iesuites of note and learning Philip. 2. 30. Because for the worke of Christ he was nigh vnto death not regarding his owne life to supply your lacke Epaphroditus is the man there spoken of a faithfull seruant of Christ in the worke of the ministery who with the hazard of his owne life puts himselfe to doe seruice vnto the Church of God This is the commendation Saint Paul giueth of him Your inference is Hee did more than hee needed to haue done for who required any such seruice at his hand as this Hee might haue kept himselfe close and warme at home and haue slept if hee would in an whole skinne This is your good wholesome Catholique Doctrine For the benefit accruing out of the actions and Passions of Saints is to make vp the treasure of the Church out of workes supererogated by them when they doe more than God requireth As for instance when the Virgin Mary without not onely actuall sinnes mortall veniall in your opinion but also originall as not conceiued in them suffered yet much which was not due to her because all sufferings are the wages of Sinne as when martyrs suffer more or greater torments than can in iustice be exacted of them though God should enter into iudgment with them and deale with them in the rigour of his iustice So Epaphroditus sicke vnto death indu 〈◊〉 that which in no case was his deseruing or due vnto him hee indured it therefore for the Philippians sake that through his sufferings they might be saued and haue supply of that which was wanting in the reckoning to the sufferings of Christ as good blasphemy as euer was vttered by any enemy of the Grace of Christ I will abide by it Secondly admit it good Catholique truth yet is it not to purpose true for Epaphroditus was then aliue and vpon recouery aliues-like They are and must be dead that bring in their shot to make vp that masse of treasure for the Church and good cause why For though then at present hee had enough at home and also spare to serue others turnes yet wisdome would hee should not be too lauish or profuse for happely hee might haue neede thereof himselfe For your Doctrine also is Hee that standeth may fall No man is sure of his Saluation therefore well is it prouided though you regard it not or know it not that your store is not to be augmented till men are dead Thirdly in your owne construction and learning this Text of Saint Paul will doe you no good For in poynt of supply for Pardons and Indulgences from the Actions and Passions of Saints you admit not of merits but onely satisfactions Now this text serueth if at all for any thing to any purpose for merit and not for satisfaction Lastly you play the Catholique knaue in plaine termes a man may call a spade a spade and him a knaue that so deserueth it For you will conuict vs by our owne Bibles Now in our Bibles wee reade thus Because for the worke of Christ hee was nigh vnto death not regarding his life to supply your lacke of seruice towards mee You cut off these words of seruice towards mee and set vp your rest vpon to supply your lacke as if the defects of the Philippians
the greatest Faith that can be without it is nothing As if it were not in euery Protestants mouth and confessed by these opposers that howbeit Faith alone doth iustifie yet not that Faith which is alone doth iustifie Fides sola but not solitaria Faith that is without Charitie doth not iustifie but Faith may yet iustifie without Charitie They haue their seuerall distinct acts and the act of Faith is to iustifie though both are vertues incident to a iust man As if the Protestants that affirme onely Faith doth iustifie did withall maintaine that all Faith did iustifie or as if hee that proposeth a thing conditionally must needes imply the condition to be reall and true It is a supposition if I had all Faith c. but a supposition of impossibility For it is impossible that all Faith should be without Charitie though some may be and is without it Beside I can answere that the Faith which iustified when it did iustifie to admit the Supposition of possibilitie was not then without Charitie though afterwards it was For in your opinion iustifying Faith may diminish and abolish and be lost Now iustification being in an instant may eftsoones be lost againe Why not and so a seperation of Faith and Loue. Secondly it is contrary to Iam. 2. 24. You see then how that by workes a man is iustified and not by Faith only In this poynt of Iustification as mine and thine are the common barretters of the World so Faith and good Workes haue broken the peace It is the errour of the Protestants say the Papists that Faith onely iustifieth It is the errour of the Papists say the Protestants that Workes doe iustifie Flat ad oppositum at least in tormes And whether should a man belieue Nay more this difference seemeth very ancient and in being when those names of opposition Protestants and Papists were not heard of in the world For Saint Paul saith By Faith without the workes of the Law And Saint Iames saith as positiuely by Workes and not alone by Faith Scripture against Scripture Apostle against Apostle Paul against Iames Iames against Paul Is Christ diuided or the Spirit irresolued or at oddes God forbid At oddes they were then as wee are now I would that wee were at no more oddes now than they then were Controuersies soone might be at an end and Christs Coate diuided soone made vp againe which is dismantled with new rentts daily Saint Paul had great contentions all dayes of his life in the whole course of his ministery with halfe-Christians false-Christians those of Concision as hee termeth them That neged as necessary vnto Saluation workes and obseruing of the Law As if Christ without them did not profit any thing against these hee aduaunceth the excellency and worth of Faith and depresseth the condition of any or all those works of the Law whereupon they insisted on which they relied whereof they gloried Saint Iames on the other side opposeth as much Simon Magus Menander their adherents and that damnable Sect of the Gnosticks that liuing in all brothelry and horrid impieties cast off all care and opinion and account of good workes as being for imperfect ones for simple ones and beginners in Christianity not to be regarded or insued of by themselues who would be counted perfect men in their Generations and through Faith alone as they pretended of neete acquaintance and alliance with God Against these Saint Iames opposeth the necessitie of workes But neither doth Saint Paul deny workes to the Regenerate nor Saint Iames deny the act of Faith Secondly I answere here that Saint Paul speaketh of Iustification in attaining it which in respect of man is confessed to be the act of Faith Saint Iames of Iustification now obtayned which necessarily is not seperate from workes Iustus factus through the Grace of Christ is Iustus declaratus by his holy life and conuersation And so Saint Iames is expounded by your selues or else hath accesse of Iustification as it is also taught by your owne men Iames 2. 14. What doth it profit though a man saith hee hath faith and hath no workes Can faith saue him Nothing at all Not at all For a better saith then that which Saint Iames meant the Faith of the Gnostiques the Deuils had Beside it is a faith onely supposed presumed and in opinion If a man say he hath faith A manifest insinuation it was not reall A Faith boasted of but not had So that this Faith and that other of the Protestants Caelo solo disparantur Nor can they be compared as they are For the Faith of the Protestants generall or speciall I dispute not now is a Faith wrought and infused by God through the Grace of Christ Liuing liuely actiue fruitfull declaring the roote by the good fruit they neuer seperate them in their Doctrine And your men doe blame them because they neuer seperate the Spring and water-course Faith and good workes but they professe it must and doth worke by Loue. And therefore it is a lying imputation that good workes are not necessary to Saluation All Writers old and new as Cassander saith in generall doe with ioynt consent teach that Faith must bring forth the fruit of good workes Otherwise It is a dead faith without workes And hee produceth the Confession of the Protestants thus Fatendum est haec opera quae à iustificatis fiunt ad salutem id est regnum Dei vitam aeternam consequendam esse necessaria iuxta illud si vis ad vitam ingredi serua mandata It must be confessed that the workes which are done of iustified men are necessary to obtaine Saluation that is to purchase the Kingdome of God aâ—deternall life according vnto that If thou wilt enter into life keepe the Commandements And the Church of England expressely teacheth Artic. 12. Albeit that good workes which are the fruits of faith and follow after Iustification cannot put away sinnes and indure the seueritie of Gods iudgement yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ and doe necessarily spring out from a true and liuely Faith Insomuch as that by them a true and liuely faith may as euidently be knowne as a Tree is discerned by the fruit I adde as this mans Spirit is discerned by his lying That of Matth. 7. 22. is so farre from being expresse in the point that it is farre from being to purpose It is not for iustifying of a sinner by workes but rather for relapsing of one iustified by Grace See Fathers that affirme the same Namely that which wee doe teach that Faith alone iustifieth For so all these three named doe Origen Hilary and Ambrose Origen saith Cassander clearely declareth in his Commentaries vpon the Epistle to the Romans Solâ fide absque operibus aliquos fuisse iustificatos That some haue beene iustified by Faith alone without any workes at all The Theefe vpon the Crosse was not saued by workes which hee had not Faith alone saued him
Iesus Christ with an oath which was peccatum lethale as Saint Augustine prooueth in his 66. Tractat. vpon Saint Iohn Chirst prayed for him that his faith might not fayle But his Prayer was for the end not the act That hee might not fall finally and hee did not but not that not totally for so hee did His infirmitie appeared in his fall Gods mercy was seene in his restauration Simon Magus was an Heretique an Arch-heretique the father of Heretiques and first begotten of the Deuill yet Simon Magus was a Christian once and baptized and belieued and brought forth fruits of new life and followed Philip a certaine time He belieued it is said but not truely It is not said he belieued not truely Saint Luke saith hee belieued in the same termes with the same words to the same intent and purpose that hee speaketh of others that belieued truely constantly Where the Holy Ghost putteth no difference what man hath any warrant to distinguish The Scripture doth not so much as insinuate the hypocrisie of Simon Magus then and what is hee that would haue his nay belieued before Saint Lukes yea Iudas was a Reprobate and cast away for euer Our Sauiour calleth him the Sonne of perdition and saith it had beene good hee had neuer beene borne Yet Iudas was numbred with the twelue Apostles had all the Prerogatiues which they enioyed God gaue him to Christ as well as Peter or Iohn And if hee perished onely in the number of them that were giuen vnto Christ doubtlesse hee was first ranked in that number and perishing ceased to be of that number as ceasing to be of that number he perished Beside if Faith had cannot be lost the Dogge cannot be said to returne vnto his vomit nor the Swine to wallowing in the myre If righteousnesse had cannot be lost why doe wee pray continually against that Leade vs not into temptation Why did the Apostle chastice and bring vnder his body least he should become a cast-away Why should hee admonish as hee doth Hee that standeth let him take heede lest hee fall And Worke out your Saluation with feare and trembling Againe say they totally it may be lost for Faith is an adhesion vnto God Sinne seperateth man from God and maketh a diuision in that first Coniunction but by repentance it is againe restored and recouery gayned after fall Totally lost is not then euer finally eternally nor ineuitably lost For yet wilt thou returne and refresh mee and bring vp my life from the gates of death againe And as the Tree that is cut downe at the stemme so long as the stocke remaineth in the ground yet by the sent of waters it will recouer saith Iob and againe shew forth the branches So so long as men in the Church haue meanes in Christ it is possible to be renued by Repentance Possible they say Necessary say some because of that necessitating purpose of God whereby hee is saued and could not perish that was appointed vnto life vnchangeably So then they teach that are thus perswaded Faith totally may be lost Faith totally lost may eternally be lost and also not be lost eternally though totally for a time Because God againe will restore them to Grace and except hee would doe so they could not rise to Grace but because his will is not put into practise by his power he necessitateth no man so irreuersably vnto life nor death those that haue lapsed totally may also perish finally It will be vrged by them which is here said by you What needes there any further proofe where holy Scripture is so plaine and they graunt in a case so fully cleared and resolued in Scripture no further proofe needeth as necessarily required yet for illustration and assurance a concurring assent of many is requisite of congruitie Wherfore they bring Fathers for their purpose Ignatius the ancientest this day extant of whose writings there is little or no question in his Epistle to the Magnesians pag. 26. diuideth mankinde into two sorts of Coynes as hee speaketh there and explicating his meaning saith hee doth not so intend it as if hee meant two distinct Natures in man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That one and the same man is sometime the Childe of God and againe the Childe of the Deuill If hee liue godly he is a man of God if wickedly the Childe of the Deuill not so by Nature but from his owne depraued will And speaking elsewhere of constancy in persecution saith Albeit I am exceedingly strengthened in God yet ought I to feare so much the rather And againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I doe not know whether I am worthy or not Clement in his Constitutions 5. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. The Holy Spirit is continually assistant with those that possesse him so long as they are worthy so to haue him From whomsoeuer this holy Spirit is diuided Hee leaueth them destitute and forsaken and deliuered vp vnto the wicked Spirit I know the Author is questioned vpon his honestie at least hee is ancient but I hold him honest and perswade my selfe I can proue him so to be as hee seemeth for my part Tertullian in de praescript Cap. iij. Et hoc mirum opinor vt probatus aliquis retro postea excidat Saul bonus prae ceteris liuore posteà euertitue Dauid vir bonus secundum cor Domini postea caedis stupri reus Salomon omni gratiâ sapientia donatus à Domino ad Idololatriam à mulieribus inducitur Soli enim dei filio seruabatur sine delicto permanere As if it were a thing so strange that any Man approued by God should afterward relapse from Grace Saul a man better then the rest was ouertaken and vndone at length through Enuy. Dauid was a good man and according vnto the Lords heart yet afterward guilty of murther and adultery Salomon inducd with all grace and wisedome from the Lord was by women brought ouer vnto Idolatry For why it was reserued to the Sonne of God alone to be without sinne What then if a Bâ—shop a Deacon a Virgin a Widow a Teacher a Martyr haue swarued from his rule shall Heresie therefore haue the better of Truth Doe wee estimate and approue Faith by Mens Persons or not rather Persons by Faith Onely the faithfull man is a wiseman Onely a Christian man is of account No man is a Christian but he that continueth vnto the end Thus farre he Cyprian is through for the point Epist 7. Parum est adipisci potuisse aliquid Plus est quod adeptus es posse seruare sicut fides ipsa Natiuitas salutaris non accepta sed custodita viuisicat Nec statim consecutio sed consummatio hominem Deo seruat Dominus hoc magisterio suo docuit dicens Ecce sanus factus es sani noli peccare nequid tibi deteriuâ— fiat Puta hoc illum Confessori suo dicere Ecce Confessor factus es sani noli
be kept Secondly that vertue proceedeth from them Both these must bee expresly prooued or the man saith nothing and may hold his peace and pen both In the second of Kings or the fourth it skilleth not for our Bibles also intimate as much 13. 21. it is written that the boâ—es of Eliseus beeing touched by one that was dead they did reuiue him Thus we graunt it is written and we beleeue it what then Why This could not bee had not some vertue proceeded from them Good and what of that Therefore wee that hold No vertue proceedeth from them after they be dead are contraried by our owne Bibles If wee did hold so but wee hold not so Indeede wee hold and assuredly beleeue that Saint Campions thumb Saint Garnets strawe Saint Storyes halter neuer did nor shall euer raise vp any dead man Wee deny not Eliseus bones or Saint Peter's shadow or Saint Paul's napkins did worke wonders Sir Addle-head or idle pâ—te touching vertue from dead men thus wee hold this is our opinion Vertue hath often proceeded from the bodyes bones garments reliques of many holy men and blessed Saints dead and aliue not ordinarily or of and from them naturally but extraordinarily by dispensation as works of wonder wrought by God But these are not euer to bee had or seene Such works are of voluntary dispensation and therefore not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for all from all at all times The red sea was diuided for Israel to passe Iordan was driuen back more then twice by Iosua Elias Eliseus are you so wise to imagine so ridiculous to proclaime that all Seas and Riuers may so be serued Go try the Thames at Trigge Staires or Broken Wharfe that the world may take notice of you for a Frantick or an Impostor or the Iewes send and hire you to diuide Euphrates at their returne shortly vnto the holy Land For by your reason or else you ramble wide the water should giue you way For marke Eliseus bones did once raise a dead man to life therefore they had vertue issuing from them and residing in them therfore all Saints bones or reliques haue vertue that proceedeth from them perpetually naturally when they bee dead and you if you haue none may easily borrow such Reliques at the Brokers to serue a turn for the Catholick Cause This is your Logick if you remember what you haue learned Any particular may inferre a Generall Once it was done it may be euer at one time therefore alwaies Eliseus bones reuiued a dead man therefore all Saints bones and Reliques can do that or the like Acts 15. 14 15. And beleeuers were the more added vnto the Lord multitudes both of men and women insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streetes and layed them on beds and couches that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might ouer-shadow some of them This is not Acts 15 but Acts 5. But that may bee the Printers fault not yours Secondly heere is no expresse mention of vertue proceeding but of shadow ouer-spreading But you answer In our Bibles it followeth And they all might bee deliuered from their infirmities But what is that to purpose We are to be tried by our Bibles at your owne choice not by yours therefore you faile in your vndertaking And as for our Bibles they haue not that clause indeed no more haue the Editions of Catholiques nor the Copies vsed by Robert Steuen The old Translator I doubt not found it in his Copie and did expresse it so would wee haue done had we found it in ours for wee left it not ouâ— nor doe you say so of set purpose But fourthly let it bee added for wee grant it true it is not ad idem for you propound it of the Dead and prooue it of the Liuing Saint Peter was then aliue betwixt Liuing and Dead there is a maine difference the one may doe what the other cannot in my learning Lastly admit Saint Peter then dead because his shadow was no substance vertue is immanent and emanant and both two waies considered Naturally and ordinary or by dispensation and extraordinary It was no naturall quality in his shadow and as for endowments of dispensation they are particular and restrained now in beeing anon not From no Saint departed or aliue from no shadow or substance doth any such virtue issue naturally From many aliue and dead great vertue hath extraordinarily at times vpon occasions for special ends by dispensation And what then Therefore your Reliques can doe the like If this be the consequence I deny it Else because the Apostles could speake with tongues our Priests and Iesuites can doe the same Doe it and I yeeld But experience prooueth true you cannot now say Arise and walke What you cannot doe for Saint Peter's shadow Saint Augustine shall help at a dead Lift to bring the Text home Ser. 39. de Sanctis hee saith If the shadow of his body could help how much more the fulnes of his power I will not quarrell the Authority nor the Author though I may how the allegation should serue for reliques I cannot see except the Fulnes of power bee his Relique opposed to the shadow of his Body and that indeed is made a Relique of Saint Peter and it is the best that euer he left worth all his other Reliques whatsoeuer and therefore deserueth to bee kept charily in the Popes Wardrobe But that is a Relique of another kinde we speake of no such Reliques now Relique or not what expresse mention None nor regarded For the man hath recourse vnto consequence in stead of expresse mention and supposeth thus Saint Augustine supposeth two things The one that the shadow of his body beeing heere on Earth did both help and heale infirmities which Protestants Bible leaueth out And so did Saint Augustines Bible without doubt For hee supposeth it you say which hee needed not haue done had he found it expresse For supposition is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where words are plaine and no maruaile if Saint Augustines Bible did so for the Originalls did and doe so old and new Papists Bibles as well as Protestants neyther is it found in the Syriack Edition nor regarded by your owne learned Commentors onely cast in by such quarrelers as if the Protestants had depraued the Text sacrilegiously The other thing supposed by Saint Augustine is That beeing in Heauen hee can still help vs by his Power And what Power how help vs Saint Augustine doth not and you I think cannot resolue vs. Whatsoeuer it bee what reference to Reliques Not heer mentioned not to be inferred or say how The Relique your men dream of heer is plenitudo virtutis and gratiae permanent is which they were wont to presume to be that Omnipotency of his Sea Were you well serued you should be turned into the Inquisition for abating or trans-planting such his Power and depriuing his Supremacy of such a testimony in S.
sanctifieth but the true employment of the thing We neuer read it warranted that creatures may bee abused or ms-imployed Are they not therefore fooles to returne your owne words vpon your self that produce these passages for such stuffe as holy bread c which as they are vsed in your Antiques may with reason be hooted at by Boyes Holy bread with you is an apish Imitation of that antient practice in the Primitiue Church whereby a part of the consecrated Host in and for the Sacrament called Eulogia was sent vnto the adjoyning parishes or diocesses and imparted vnto strangers that came vnto them as a signe pledge and assurance of mutuall loue and confederation in the same faith a thing prohibited afterward in the councell of Laodicea but re-assumed and long time frequented in the Church which growing at last into disuse in the Latine Church especially Bread began to bee blessed indeed but not consecrated for or in the Communion which in Paulinus Augustine and others is named Eulogia or Panis Catechumenorum The Catecumeni beeing not baptized could not bee imparted with the body of Christ but receiued Bread blessed by the Priest for their vse and eating as an assurance of that Communion whereof in due time they were to be made partakers The later Church abused this practice of the Antients imploying it as spells or amulets to cast out diuils to heale diseases to keepe men from danger whereto nor God nor man had designed it antiently The forme of consecrating it is this in Burchard Cap. 28. Lord God Almighty vouchsafe to blesse this Bread with thy holy and spirituall benediction that it may become health of soule and body vnto all a defence and safegard against all diseases and all the assaults and deceits of the enemie through our Lord Iesus Christ thy Sonne the Bread of Life who came downe from Heauen brought life and saluation into the world who liueth and raigneth with thee for euer Was any thing thus consecrated 1. Tim. 4. 4. Mat. 23. 17. 19 Or any water any where to the like purpose to bee sprinkled in houses to driue away Fayries and Hobgoblins to remoue the lets and impediments which might hinder the receiuing of the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar to put out the guilt and tainture of originall sinne I finde no such thing in Scripture or the Primitiue times I doe in the Rituals and Pontificals of the Pagans Nam et sacris quibusdaminitiantur Isidis alicuius aut Mithrae Ipsos etiam Deos suos lauationibus efferunt villas domos templa totasque vrbes asperginâ— circumlatae aquae expiant passim Tertullian speaketh of Pagan superstitions and it agreeth vnto your fopperies point by point Such hallowing and sacring of the Creature as of ashes bells and other bables are farre enough remooued from that sanctification of the Creature in Saint Paul vnto holy and religious or common vses Saint Paul neuer baptized or blessed a bell to cleere the ayre asswage stormes and tempests help against lightning and thunder driue away diuels and wicked spirits that would hinder good Christians from going to Church or righteous soules from passing through the ayre into Heauen Such old wiues tales I finde not in Saint Paul nor in Saint Basil whom we are directed to see Lib. 2. de baptismo but for what or where-about I professe my ignorance I cannot tell and yet I haue Basil and haue read him Transeat therefore till I know what and where I should see Basil I must suspend my answer vnto his authority XXXIII That children may bee saued by their parents faith without Baptisme THe man when hee vndertook this gagging taske opposed himselfe intentionally against our Church in which regard with what face with what forehead can he thus impudently bely vs knowing in his conscience our Doctrine our practice to the contrary and that wee haue beene put to maintaine and iustifie it against schismaticall humors not Papists but Puritans at home In the very first Instep to the forme of Administration of Baptisme wee professe All men be conceiued and borne in sinne wee adde alledging our Sauiours words None can enter into the Kingdome of God except he bee regenerate and borne anew of water and the holy Ghost Beeing assured that as Truth hath spoken it so it is impossible ordinarily for a man to bee saued that is not baptized Vpon which perswasion of that necessity of water and the holy Ghost wee following the vse and warrant of Antiquity haue tolerated practised and defended priuate Baptisme at home by Lay-people and yet this shamelesse Detractor chargeth vs to hold That children may bee saued by the Parents faith without Baptisme as if it were vnnecessary One man peraduenture thought so that the children of the Faithfull that were in Christ might ordinarily be saued without Baptism I say peraduenture for it appeareth not that he held it of ordinary course nor referred it to the Parents faith but vnto that Couenant of grace I will be thy God and the God of thy Seed as euen Bellarmine his Aduersary confesseth touching him who yet is nothing vnto vs. Touching the necessity of Baptism there hath bin variation euer in the Church and yet euer a necessity held vpon all hands more or lesse For Antiquity supplied the want of water by blood Martyrs not baptized went to heauen The ineuitable want of water by the Spirit in desire and assured faith if it might bee had in Christ the Author and End of it For as in little Infants the faith of the Church and those that present them to be baptized is by God reputed their owne so the willingnes and desire of the same Church of their Godfathers and Parents is reputed theirs So that no absolute necessity in opinion of Antiquity and indispensable was held of our Sauiours Asseueration Except a man bee born anew of water and the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the Kingdome of heauen Which necessity thus qualified by Antiquity some late Writers haue qualified further vpon other grounds as namely that supposed Decree of God touching absolute necessity of saluation which admitted yet includeth a subordination of meanes As Paul and his company were determinately saued from perishing by sea yet he told them it could not be except the Sailers staied so nor Gods Decree be accomplished without means which is water and the holy Ghost ordinarily Others it may be haue qualified it from the state faith and interest of their parents which if it be so is but a priuate opinion of some men not the doctrine of this or any Protestant Church that I knowe You would bee loth to maintain all priuate opinions in the Church of Rome The most that wee haue said thereof is Of the will of God to impart his grace vnto infants without Baptism in that case the very circumstance of their naturall birth may serue as a iust argument Whereupon it is not to be mis-liked that men in charitable presumption do gather a
descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the soules of the Fathers AProposition of two feet neither relying vpon either The soules of the Fathers might not bee thence deliuered though Christ descended into hell and Christ might very well go down into hell and yet not deliuer any Fathers thence as finding some other work there to doo and hauing other causes of his descent finding no Fathers to deliuer For the former part of this Position that Hee went not into hell with what face what fore-head can this Fellow shew wee teach it when in our Creed wee professe that He went down into hell and haue publiquely defended it against opposition Nay wee more beleeue it than the Church of Rome doth and are more punctuall in it than are they They quarter out hell into foure Regions Hell of the Damned Purgatory Limbus Infantium and Limbus Patrum This diuision without warrant of holy Writ be it granted them into which of these Quarters into all or into some did the soule of our Sauiour separate from his body descend Say they Into the hell of the Fathers onely really into the other parts virtually or by effects Thus Thomas and who dare deny him Thus the Current of their Schools This is their Tenent and no otherwise Wee professe and beleeue that Christ went into hell that is that the humane soule of our Sauiour in the Interim of separation from the body did essentially and really go downe into hell the place of the Damned and of the Diuels not alone into Limbus of the Fathers which was not there not to suffer any thing there at all for all suffrings ended vpon the Crosse In the Land of darknes and shadow of death began the first step of his exaltation that free among the Dead he walked where he would not being consined to any place that he took reall possession of a part of his Kingdome and presented his person vnto those his vassals hauing beaten his enemy in his chiefest hold chased him out of the castle of his strength triumphed ouer him in himself and preached confusion vnto his foes that would not entertain his mercy in time of life nor partake of grace offred them vnto repentance This is our belief concerning his descent into hell if not orthodox antient and receiued let this wrangler shew where how and we will yeeld vnto better discretion from Antiquity It is idlely supposed that the descent granted we must needs inferre withall a Limbus Patrum or deliuerance of the Fathers out of hell there being alledged not contrary to Scriptures nor Analogy of faith not inferring impiety impossibility improbability absurdity or contradiction so many true good and catholick reasons of our Sauiours descent thither beside this The Fathers he meaneth are the Patriarchs and Prophets and righteous men that liued and died before Christ came in the flesh that expected the Promises and beleeued in hope but enioyed not the fulnesse which we doo since Being dead they are considered two waies in regard of state in respect of place For place the Scripture runneth in generall tearms In the hands of God In Abraham's Bosom With their people and such like thus affirmatiuely determining no certaine place negatiuely resoluing they were not there whereas now they are in the highest heauens and glorious where the Body of Christ resideth exalted aboue all Powers and Principalities For He first entred into the most holy place by his owne bloud They without vs were not to bee perfect standing the first Tabernacle the holiest of all was not yet opened The way was new which he prepared for vs. The gates to be opened were eternall gates neuer opened since they were gates but gates and eternall shut gates together Therefore wee professe with holy Saint Ambrose euery day in our Liturgie When thou hadst ouercome the sharpnes of death thou didst open the Kingdome of Heauen to all Beleeuers This we acknowledge is the receiued opinion of the fathers and for ought I knowe of Protestant Diuines not a few Though they were not in heauen in regard of place yet were they in happinesse in respect of state The soules of the Righteous said he before Christ came are in the hands of God and no kinde of torments shall once touch them This is also the consented doctrine of Antiquity If no kinde of torment then not losse nor paine then not in hell for I neuer heard of hell without all manner pain So it followeth not in opinion of the Antients the soules of the Faithfull were not in heauen aboue properly therefore they were in hell properly Gods hands in which they were are not so shortned his Kingdome is not so narrowed but that hee might well haue moe places than one Receptacles Repositories Resting-places for the righteous where hee would dispose them enow could we be content Curiosity will not stay heer but proceed to enquire Where were they then In what place of the world was their abiding I answer I cannot resolue that for the Scripture hath not determined it Nescire velle quae Magister maximus docere non vult erudita est inscitia It is learned nescience Not to knowe what our grand instructer will not teach It is enough to knowe they are in better case now than they were then With Christ they entred into his Rest Euer they were in the hands of God though not euer in like distance or proportion with God So what need we wrangle about the place if the matter bee agreed touching state See how contrary to our owne Bibles Ephes. 4. 8. out of Psal 68. 18. When he ascended vp on high he led Captiuity captiue and gaue gifts vnto men Christ in his Ascent led Captiues along The Question is Who these Captines were No Sir the question should first of all bee What this Ascent was You take it of his Resurrection It plainly is referred vnto his Triumph into the heauens in his Ascension both in the Prophet and Apostle and by all Interpreters but your self But to follow you in your follies Be it as you would haue it of his Resurrection must these freed Captiues needs be the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Yes no nay no other possibility For they were not the soules of the Saued nor the Diuels therefore the soules of the Fathers Sir can you finde no mo but these Diuels or Saued Iustin Martyr could and he is ancient pag. 57. edit Rob. Steph. with him in his opinion and I think hee was in his right wits We are those Captiues that since the Ascension of our Sauiour by the preaching of the Gospell of peace are captiued vnto truth being freed and deliuered from error Irenaeus in his wits too I suppose goes not far from this meaning for hauing remembred the Text whcih he referreth to the Passion hee inferreth thus Dominus per passionem mortem destruxit soluit errorem corruptionemque exterminauit ignorantiam destruxit Tertullian was
departed receiue by the assistance of the Church To admit it euident and concerning succour which soules departed receiue and that by the assistance of the Church yet first I say you go from your word no such contrariety heer as you pretend Secondly you are a poor Ignaro that think soules must needs be in Purgatory that receiue assistance from the Church It may be your poor vnderstanding will wonder at it but knowe Sir I can admit Praier for the Dead and deny your Purgatory I can giue you reasons to pray for the Dead and yet keep farre enough from your Purgatory But for that some other time At present I answer You are a silly man that call this an euident place one of the hardest in all Scripture Quid sit baptizari pro mortuis obscurum est ab Authoribus variè exponitur say your owne men which is true For till this day it is not agreed what is the meaning no man can say This is the sense and yet our Blunderer saith It is euident Doo you knowe that some take pro mortuis for the Dead that is for sinnes because men die through sinnes and the works of sin are called Dead works And so men are baptized to be deliuered from sinne These men dreamt not of Purgatory That others vse pro mortuis that is doo represent the Dead because we die to sinne in Baptism and are buried vnto corruption And not much differing hence that others take it Into the death of Christ which of these thought vpon Purgatory Again some take Baptism for affliction men afflicted vnto death what shall they doo if the dead rise not again Some referre it vnto a Iewish custome by which if a man had died polluted another was clensed and washed for him that so beeing dead hee might get aduantage by it This Iewish Fable may happely look vpon your Purgatory and much good may it doo you Yet farther Chrysostome relateth vpon this place that when any of the Catechized among the Marcionite Heretiques died a liuing body was laid vnder the Beer and the question proposed vnto the Party If he would be baptized for you knowe the Catechumeni were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnbaptized The Party answered for the dead man Yes I will and so was hee baptized for him And thus they expounded Saint Paul's meaning Tertullian by dead vnderstandeth the body of man If there be no Resurrection to what end is the body baptized Epiphanius lastly and most men commonly take it for the baptizing of the Clinici as they called them Men in those times vsually deferred Baptism vntill their death and in extremis would be baptized So to be baptized for the Dead is to be baptized when men are ready to dy which they not doe but vpon hope of the Resurrection In such variety and greater than so yet saith this fellowe An euident place To come home to the assertion It is plaine and euident the Apostle speaketh not of any succour that soules departed receiued from the Suffrages of the Church which were it granted no necessity of Purgatory would ensue but of comfort that men receiued from that mayne point of our most holy faith the Resurrection of the Dead the mayne Subiect of that Chapter as euery child with vs can tell See more for wee haue seene but little hitherto 2. Tim. 1. 18. where That day is transmued into Purgatory For Saint Pauls words are The Lord grant vnto him that he may find mercy with the Lord at that day that is may bee deliuered out of Purgatory at the day of Iudgement So wheresoeuer God sheweth mercy there is Purgatory or All that finde mercy at the day of Iudgement come out of Purgatory Vnlesse this bee his meaning let him tell me what he would haue with Saint Paul here If this bee his meaning I wish him well for sure hee is in no right wits because so no man liuing can escape Purgatory by this inference For no man but findeth mercy with God before that time and then No man but needeth Gods mercy then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In that fearfull and terrible day when wee stand in need of great mercy indeed saith Chrysost who neuer dreamt of any Purgatory nor would haue sent Onesiphorus thither had hee fancied any such thing for euen according to your owne Doctrine his good deeds had not onely aboundantly merited for himselfe sufficiently satisfied for his Peccadilloes but his Indurances ouer and aboue layd somewhat vnto the Church-treasure And what hath Purgatory to do with such a man Esay 4. 4. the Prophet speaketh of the Spirit of burning and of Purging thus When the Lord shall wash the filthines of the daughter of Sion purge the blood of Ierusalem out of the midst thereof by the Spirit of iudgement and by the Spirit of burning then without all doubt Purgatory burneth apace the rather because Saint Augustine expoundeth it of Purgatory Lib. 20. de Ciuit. Dei Cap. 25 saith Bellar. You left vs to seeke Cap. 21 say others so your selues are to seeke I meane for any such thing in Saint Augustine For hee is belied in both places which touch not vpon Purgatory at all but manifestly designe the last Iudgement In the 21. he professes himself that his discourse was wholly therof à primo Saluatoris aduentu vsque ad vltimū Iudiciū de quo nunc agimus And more euidently Cap. 25. Videtur euidentius apparere in illo Iudicio quodam quorundā futuras Poenas purgatorias Purgatory paines are by S. Augustine put off and adiourned vnto the last Iudgement then to begin when yours end and this but in opinion not resolution Now Sir what aduantage haue you by Saint Augustine who speaketh opiningly of Purgatory but excludeth your Purgatory And to as much purpose is Saint Basil expounding the place of Esay 9. 18. of Purgatory you say The text is For wickednes burneth as a fire it deuoureth the briers and thornes and will kindle in the thick places of the Forrest and they shall mount vp like the lifting vp of smoke Basil in his exposition nameth purging fire I grant it but this purging fire is in life not after death in this world not in the world to come and God himselfe is this purging fire who abolisheth and consumeth iniquitie by Repentance being detected by confession as any man may see that will but looke vpon the place and the same Father vpon the 10. of Esay more plainely explicateth his owne meaning Pandit hic naturam ignis quia lustratiuus est et purgatorius Sanctificabit enim ipsum quasi in igne ardenti Quomodo autem sanctificat ignis Quia comesturus est syluam tanquam foenū Sanè ex quo Deus noster ignis consumens est consumet syluā et vitia quae à syluā siue materiâ promanant animae quae non degit in spiritu sed in carne Strange conceits that if any Father name purging fire hee must needs bee a
It is well he told vs not in what Chap. we might finde it Such Roters as these are the men that talk of Fathers amongst their Gossips and Proselytes and yet are so stupid as not to know what works a common Father hath written Besides had Tertul. wrote such a second book or sayd any such matter in that second book a Protestant of but meane reading could tell him Tertullian wrote that book beeing lapsed into Montanisme and so of no authority in the Church for resolution though for relation But the truth is the man did but vse Tertullian's name for a cypher to fill vp a number make a fair dumb shew of a Shepheard with a sheepe on his shoulders on a Chalice which is the picture he looked at in Tertul. But I can send him to Tertullian to learne how like a Woodcock hee remembred those Texts of Scripture for the Cherubins Sic et Cherubin et Seraphin aureâ in arce figuratum exemplum certè simplex ornamentum accommodata suggestut longe diuersos habendo causas ab Idololatriae conditione ob quam similitudo prohibetur non videntur similitudinum prohibitarum Legi refragari non in eo similitudinis statu deprehensa ob quem similitudo prohibetur Lib 2. con Mar. 22. This commeth home to the reason why God ordained them and answereth your Cauill to the full As for your Images take his description in the like de Praescript cap XII Igitur si statuas et imagines frigidas mortuorum suorum simillimas non adoramus quas milui et mures et aranâ—ae intelligunt nonne laudem magis quà m poenam merebatur repudium agniti erroris Hee thought not then very honorably of Imagines whom wee are bidden goe see for I know not what engrauing on the Chalices For Gregory Nazianzen I did much maruaile what it was wee might see in him concerning Images who writeth onely a deprecatory Epistle in behalf of the Inhabitants of Diocaesarea vnto Olympius the Emperours Lieutenant For I could finde nothing tending vnto Images but onely this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is not much if the Statuae bee demolished and cast downe though it be indeed a pitty to haue such a thing done And what is heere to bee seene any way to purpose This man I beleeue had read or rather heard of Billius note vpon the place this Hic obserua Gregorij quoque tempore aedes sacras statuis imaginibus ornatas fuisse and hauing heard of it made much adoe about it whereas Nazianzen doth not so much as mention Churches nor Chappels the statues hee speaketh of were publique Ornaments of the City and as for worshipping of them it came not within the compasse of his thoughts Billius meant well to the Catholique cause and out of his affection set downe that which hee would haue had Nazianzen speake but not what he did say for Nazianzen not so much as squinteth that way More may any man maruaile at his trifling with Saint Basil on Barlaam the Martyr What shall I call thee O valiant Souldier of Christ Iesus Shall I call thee a Statue or Image of brasse why it is not so solid or substantiall as thou art for Fire doth melt it but fire could not cause thee pluck forth thy hand This is not that passage peraduenture intended but that which insueth Exurgite nunc athleticorum gestorum pictores mutilam ducis imaginem vestro illustrate artificio et obscurius à me depictum coronatum athletam vestrae industriae coloribus conspicuum reddite not with a pencill conceiue not Basil to haue beene a Painter but with a penne So that Homers describing Achilles Vlysses in this mans construction is painting in a table with colours and portraiture to the life None but a Statue would thus discourse or one more senslesse than a block What Basil and Nazianzen could not doe Augustine shall supply who witnesseth that in his time Christ was to bee seene painted in many places betwixt Saint Peter and Saint Paul So is hee in many Churches with vs betwixt the blessed Virgin and Saint Iohn Euangelist So was the holy Virgin by Saint Luke you say So let them be euery where if you please Not the making of Images is misliked not the hauing of Images is condemned but the prophaning of them to vnlawfull vses in worshipping and adoring them XLIIII That no man hath at any time seene God and that therfore his picture or Image cannot be made IGnorant Blunderer whither wilt thou Sure the man is not wel in his wits that challengeth the Protestant vpon these termes No man at any time hath seene God Is it not plaine expresse Scripture that Ioh. 1. 18. No man hath seene God at any time Exo. 33. 20. Thou canst not see my face For there shall no man see mee and liue No man hath no man can in this life no nor in that which is to come So Saint Paul 1. Tim. 6. 16. Whom neuer man saw nor yet can see The reason is rendred by a Pagan 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mortall men haue mortall eyes and God inhabits Immortality and yet this Gagger thinks to gag the Spirit of truth by opposing Texts of Scripture to the contrary that a man may see God Gen. 3. 8. Where God appeared vnto Adam walking in the Garden of Paradise in a corporall forme Accursed Glosser to corrupt the Text There wee read They heard the voyce of the Lord God walking in the Garden in the coole of the day So Hearing and Seeing is all one with this man that hath lost both Hearing and Seeing vnderstanding too A voice in his Philosophy is a corporall forme and so to heare one speake is to see one go and Moses said he knew not what Deuter. 4. 12. You heard the voice of words but saw no similitude saue a voice A whip for a fool rather than an answer to his folly Gen. 28. 12 13. God appeared vnto Iacob standing aboue the Ladder whereon the Angels ascended and descended In what shape did he appear can you tell The Lord stood aboue it so are the words and spake Hee might there stand and speak as hee did in Sinah and yet as saith the Scripture they see no shape So that yet wee haue nothing but belying of Scripture and deprauing the Text to countenance Idolatry in consequence Exod. 33. 11. To Moses He spake face to face as a man speaketh vnto his friend Your great Prophet S. Thomas shall stop your mouth 1. 2. q. 98 ar 3. Secundum opinionem populi loquitur Scriptura The Scripture speaks according vnto popular opinion who thought that Moses talked face vnto face with God cùm per subiectam creaturam id est per Angelum Nubem ei loqueretur appareret where as indeed God appeared vnto and talked with him by the meanes of creatures an Angell in a cloud Or if not so and this answer will not serue by face to face the Scripture meaneth a certain eminent and
therefore adore them make them Images as well you may and farre rather than a carued piece of wood by them giue relatiue honour vnto God This you cannot digest by any means for then your Idolomanie in Images with stocks and stones were clean dashed And yet if dead and insensible things bee to be honoured you cannot auoid the sequell doo you what you can Liue things may be much more honoured Vpon the same ground we are sent to adore the footstool of his feet Psal 99. 5. as common in your mouthes for Adoration as Ergo with boies in the schools as if an Image were Gods Footstool and so must be worshipped Indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Image may bee for him to trample and tread vnder foot as he will doo in iust anger the Image and adorer of the Image that giueth his glory to a stock a stone So wee well may take you at aduantage if we will but wee take you at best as your self will Footstool you expound in the literall sense to be the Ark of Gods Testament as 1. Chron. 28. 2. not as Saint Augustine by Scripture too for the Earth or by anaiogic Christs body after Saint Ambrose as I remember Be it the Arke worship and adore it if you can finde it worship any thing like it any Image for it if you can bring so good warrant for your so doing your adoring thereof as is this Adore the footstoole of his feet Tu Prophetam imitare nee adores imagines nisi tibi Deus iusserit Do as the Prophet willeth Adore no Images vnlesse God command If God had commanded Israel notwithstanding that Precept of Eternall Morality Thou shalt not bow downe to them nor worship them to make Cherubins and to adore them Israel might haue done it yet could not you haue followed Israels example without sacriledge For peculiar priuiledges and dispensations take away no generall right nor reuerse an eternall lawe Adore you Images and spare not if you shew me such a Text as Adore the footstoole of his feet if it were an Image I adde If that footstoole be the Arke what is Mountayne ver last for as ver 5. we reade Adore we the footstoole of his feete so ver 9. we also reade Adore we his holy Mountayne What Images were in that holy Mountaine can you tell for which we are willed to adore it Some there were some there must bee your reason is no reason else thus Now the principall reason why the Arke was worshipped was in regard of the Images that were vpon it So that no question there were Images vpon that holy Mountaine otherwise the Prophet would not haue sent vs to adore it We read Adore his holy Mountaine we doe not read of Images vpon it therefore a Reason no reason much lesse principall is alleadged and fathered vpon S. Ierome But indeed that is a reason a principall one too the same in both places could you squint vpon it v. 5. For he is holy verse 9. For the Lord our God is holy Which reason held before in putting off Moses shooes The place is holy ground Holines of the Lord. The presence of God communicated this Holines vnto that place Adore his footstoole for he is holy Adore his Mountaine for he is holy Toward the Mountain where hee dwelleth Before his Footstoole where hee treadeth or in his Arke as in his holy Mountain as your owne Bibles if I mistake not read the place So take it as you will or as you can out of Arke will proceed no Image-worship nor yet from vpon the Arke any Images The Iewes did worship Images vpon the Ark. That is no warrant for you to do so nor yet precedent to take it so They worshipped Baalim and the Hostes of Heauen Milcom and Moloch Will you doe the like They burnt their children in the valley of Hinnon Would you be contented to be serued so I would I had the pow'r to dress you so to make you low a little louder out of that bul Such a wise collection as this Because there were Images vpon the Arke and because the Iewes did worship those Images therefore the Prophet tooke vp that admonition Adore the footstoole c. You bely the Iewes they did not worship them For they could not come to worship them The Arke was reuestried in the most holy place No Israelite came thither to adore it onely the High-Priest had accesse thither He onely once but one day in the yeare and but one time in that day And for any thing I yet know Saint Hierom saith it not in his Epistle to Marcella doe you meane or some other S. Hierom wrote many Epistles vnto Marcella in which of them all doth Saint Hierom say so Did you suppose that hee wrote but one It is more then probable you thought so Or if moe then one may we intreate you to tell vs in which of his Epistles hee saith so But I may mistake for I cannot tell what to make of in his Epistle to Marcellan When you speake more plaine I shall bee able to giue you a fuller answer till then I proceed From Images to I cannot tell what to giue vnto it but it is the name of Iesus somwhat strangely carried vnto Adoration Philip. 2. 10. That at the name of Iesus euerie knee should bowe of things in Heauen things in Earth andof things vnder the earth Vpon which premises the conclusion is Therefore Images are to bee worshipped So the name of Iesus is become an Image a strange kind of Image to my vnderstanding that a mans name should bee his image Imago is quasi Imitago you say which is not saith Sanders with Vasques approbation any similitude whatsoeuer but onely that which is expressed to represent the thing as the Picture of a long-eared beast doth an Asse Iesus printed or painted on a wall is no Image of our Sauiour much lessethe word pronounced conueighed to the eare which at least is if not the intire yet principall meaning of S. Paul Names are notes of things But names pronounced are but transeunt and names painted no Image Your Bottle-ale-wife caâ—â—el you so much that a Bottle is not the Image of a bottle and your Baker that his basket no representation of himselfe But to point Your vndertaking is for expresse words in our Bibles What expresnes in bowing the knee at the name vnto an Image made of what you will haue it Beside the name of Iesus is so farre from being expresse to proue it that it is not resolued what is meant by the name of Iesus heer By that name is meant the Glorie and Power of Iesus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Chrysostom because al things are subiected vnto him as There is no other name giuen vnder heaueÌ„ by which we may be saued no Power no means beside or the name of Iesus is Iesus himselfe that is that at his name in effect vnto him euery knee should bowe as He that calleth
vpon the name of the Lord that is he that calleth vpon the Lord shall besaued but we grant the name of Iesus to bee Iesus named and when wee heare that sweet name of our Sauiour named accordingly do and are inioyned by Canon to do reuerence with our bodie Heere it doth not insue wee may worship Images there is text for the one none for the other Shewe it that vnto the Image os Iesus euery knee should bowe Difference in the one from the other Images are resemblances which in vse and application may in naturall proportion haue such a relation vnto the Prototype that they supply the roome thereof insinuating the forme and fashion thereof which the name thereof cannot doe insinuating onely that being thereof So there is reason for the one none for the other lesse reason of alleadging this text of Saint Paul for ratification of Image-worship In the Brazen Serpent there is more resemblance It may be a warrant for making an Image no warrant for worshipping an Image made nor for making ordinarily because that was made by speciall direction to a speciall end against a generall practice vpon precept Thou shalt not make any grauen Image God may so dispense with his own Law where when in what sort and to whom hee will but not wee The first obseruation then out of this Text against the Protestant that God commanded the making of this Image is idle neuer Protestant made question of it nor of the second that it was set vp for a signe nor the third that the lookers vpon it should receiue health nor the fourth of exempting the practice commanded from the breach of the first Commandement These they confesse they plead and bid you shew the like for your Images for making erecting beholding reuerencing any Image of God or Saints in this sort and they yeeld This Serpent was beheld not adored by those that looked on it though it had a reference vnto a great mystery and was a Rememoratiue of saluation extended by the Sonne of God Vnlesse it were adored it is to no purpose alleaged For making is one thing this may be done Adoring another thing that is vnlawfull Therefore Saunders and Catharine and Saunders and Bellarmine doe maintaine adoration was giuen vnto it Vasques denieth it and that iustly for when they began to adore it the good Ezechiah brake it in pieces But yet Vasques must yeeld it was adored or else that it is alleaged to no purpose to prooue Adoration To conclude no Text of Scripture doth expresly say nor by consequence inferre that euer Images were worshipped with countenance or commendation of God or any holy man in Scripture Saint Ambrose saith no such thing as is pretended that Images lawfully may be worshipped Hee saith Whosoeuer crowneth the Emperours Statue crowneth the Emperor that is honoreth him and whosoeuer dishonoreth the Emperours Statue dishonoreth him What then Whosoeuer dishonoreth Gods Image dishonoreth him I grant And what of that Therefore honour is to bee giuen some Images No man denieth it Therefore all Images are to be worshipped Away with that no such consequence Honor is one thing Dulia if you will Latria is another worship I am sure First What is Gods Image Then How farre Gods Image Then What honour is due vnto Gods Image And lastly Whether the honor giuen be not more or other honour then is due vnto an Image Saint Augustine in his third booke de Trinit You might haue added cap. 10. as well as the book out of Bellarmines nameth the brazen Serpent expresly in the ranke of such things as tanquam religiosa honorem haberepossunt And so doe wee and many things of that nature as the Sacraments of the Church of the which very things hee speaketh and it had beene better he had sayd nothing of them For hee demolisheth that Idol of Transubstantiation in adding Stuporem tanquam mira habere non possunt Which could not haue passed from his pen had he beleeued Transubstantiation This place of Saint Augustine is to no purpose for there is not a word of Images there Saint Gregory is of later date then Saint Augustine and of lesse credit by much in controuerted questions Images in his time were much improoued and yet not vnto Adoration Honour Reuerence and respect was giuen then to bee bookes for the simple and ignorant people to bee remembrances of things by representation Hold you heere and wee blame you not As for Damascene he was a childe in respect of those Heroes of the Church Postnatus and a party in that Image quarrell in the Easterne Church exception against him may lie as partiall interessed and yet hee saith no more though what hee saith cannot bee prooued then that the honoring of Images was a Tradition Apostolical You or Damascene proue this and I yeeld I maruaile none euer said so before Damascene who yet had good occasion to auow it if it had beene so They had you say and did auow it for Saint Basil against Iulian hath the same that it was deliuered from the Apostles Some body told Pope Adrian so and hee beleeued them for facile credimus quae fieri volumus Adrian related it in the second Synod of Nice and you take it for Gospell It Saint Basil said it I le subscribe it shew it in Saint Basil and no more adoe I maruaile Saint Basil should euery where forget this Tradition remembring so many as he doth especially in his booke de spiritu sancto Basil is not the onely man belyed in that ridiculous Synod nor the onely man forged in that Epistle of Pope Adrian whence the Rhemists and Harding and Bellarmine had it from whom you took whatsoeuer you haue impudent Plagiary as you are Saint Chrysostom's Masse is not intirely his many things haue beene added in tract of time no man will deny it that knoweth any thing this bowing to the Image is one of those additions and yet in some editions there is no mention of any Image if there bee it doth not come home to iustifie that in the Church of Rome whereby worship is giuen to stocks and stones and such worship as indeed is Gods peculiar Images and Idols may be two things these prophane and impious neuer tolerable those not vnlawfull and sometime profitable especially resemblances of Stories Images were vnlawfull vnto the Iewes at all the very ordinary and ciuill vse and making of them except by speciall warrant in some place as in the Temple vpon the Ark which though perhaps not obserued yet is true and apparant to any man that aduisedly shall read Philo and Iosephus Vnto Christians they are not vnlawful for ciuil vses nor vtterly in all manner of religious imployment The pictures of Christ the blessed Virgin and Saints may be made had in houses set vp in Churches the Protestants vse them they despight them not Respect and honour may be giuen vnto them the Protestants doe it and vse them for helps