their subiectes to reuolte from their obedience Elizeus did none of these thinges neither can this defence of Elizeus without racking be drawne hereto But M. sand â—…aith he bringeth it to this ende to shevve that the Pastors of the Churche haue povver not onely ouer the soules of the faithfull but also ouer their goods bodies If you bring it to this ende M. sand then as you bring it about the bushe and not directly to the question in hande so here youfoully ouer shoot your selfe For this Prince was not a faithfull but an Infidell Prince and the enimie of the Prince of Israell And therefore inuading with open hostilitie the Princes dominion of Israell it was lawfull for any Israelite to do the worste he could to destroye the Syrians armie Howbeit Elizeus gathered no power nor vseth any worldly violence against this foraine Princes armie as the Pope doth against foraine Princes to come vpoÌ„ them with horsses and charets and with a mightie armie like to this infidell Prince of Syria to besiege Christian Princes and the true Israelites and to destroy the Prophetes of Iesus Christ that giue Christian Princes warning of the Popish practises So that if a figure may be drawne from this historie to our times the Pope more resembleth Benedab than Elizeus As for Elizeus gathered no worldly power but with stedfast confidence commended himselfe to God and God protecteâ—… him with Millions of Angels He had power indéede to defends him and moe Armies than hath any Emperor as M. Saunders â—…aith But this power was spirituall and not such as the Pope exerciseth ouer Princes Woulde the Pope séeke 〈◊〉 other power than Elizeus did then might you M. Sanders put vp your pipes this controuersie were at an ende for deposing Princes No M. Saunders all Princessée yea euen those that are blinded with affection towardes him do sée that he séeketh hath such power as Benadab had and greater worldly power also For the maintenance whereof you here do contende by wryting as fast as he contends by fighting But this was not the power of Elizeusâ—… If you will sée a platforme of Elizeus power looke vpoÌ„ the poore Ministers of the gospel inuironed round about with your popish armies horses charets in so much that the poore simple man cryeth out as Elizeus seruant did Alas master hovve shall vve doe the Popishe Benadab hath besieged the poore Protestantes with such mightie aruâ—…es that all the world would haue thought ere this they should haue ben cleane swallowed vp But God be blessed poore Elizeus hath moe armies â–ª the poore preachers of the Gospell haue moe Legions of Angels and moe spirituall fyrie charâ—…ts and horsmen to assist them against al that assault them than that yet they coulde euer preuaile but are as was the hoste of Benadab striken more and more with blindnesse For they 〈◊〉 not blinded they must néeds sée this mightie worke of God that all whose eyes God hath opened doe beholde and glorifie God and feare not any more the hoste of this Benadab for they that be vvith vs are moe than they that be vvith them But sée howe this Captaine of Benadab that is blind himself wolo so blind vs with him that he would make vs beléeue that euen Benadab himself were Elizeus But doth the Pope vse his captiues as Elizeus did who suffered not them to be killed nor spoyled but comforted and refreshed them set them againe at libertie No M. sand we are not so blind but we al the world doth sée that as the Pope fights with other manâ—… of armies than did Elizeus so he vseth to his captiues no such mercie but more tygerly crueltie than we should finde at the Turks hands than the Turkes found at the hands of Tamerlanes the Scithian thaÌ„ is to be found among the Canibals that roast men on a spit being killed before and not â—…rye them at a stake aliue yea than a man shal finde among the Sauage Beares and Lyons that woulde quickly deuoure him Suche dispyte hath the Pope shewed euen to his owne Cardinalles where Elizeus shewed this goodnesse to his enimies And when he had them in his frée choyce to haue kylled them he let them goe frée Whereas the Pope to kill his 〈◊〉 being frée hath violated all safeconduiâ—… and broken all othes bends promises faith and honestie And is the Pope yet like Elizeus But how holds this argument Elizeus had more povver than the hoste of the Syrians Ergo Byshoppes haue power to depose Princes The second thing that M. Sand â–ª noteth in Elizeus is the excluding of King Iorams Messanger that was scute to cut off his head This factdrawes somewhat nearer to the purpose in respect of the King for he was the King of Israel to whom Elizeus was a subiect but this again is as far from the purpose in respecte of the Kings crueltie and Idolatrie wherein Ioram figureth Popish not Protestant Princes But in respect stâ—…l of the present coÌ„trouersie it is nothing to the purpose at al for the kings deposing For how foloweth this He bad them kepe the Kings seruant out that vvould haue come to cut off his head Ergo he bad them depose the King from his royal estate And here M. Sanders vrgeth the force of Elizeus words Sanctes Pagninus saith he translateth thus these later words oppresse him in the dore In vvhich vvordes is not only signified a shutting out of the Kings Messanger but also a kinde of violence done vnto him You néede not run to Pagâ—… M. Sanders our translations confesse as much premite eum in ostio reprimite illum in ostio presse him in the dore or rather represse him than oppresse him For oppressing draweth nearer to the murthering of him which was farre from Elizeus meaning and is nearer to the Popish violence But the plaine meaning is kepe him out of the dores as the coÌ„mâ—…n translation hath it Neither is it material though he were shut out before he came or thronging in before y 〈◊〉 were â—…ul shut he were violently thrust out again For this was not done of theÌ„ to resist the â—…ings authoritie nor 〈◊〉 to be done of him 〈◊〉 shew that he had such poweroâ—… his goods bodie that he might take his goods or his life froâ—… him but this that was here done was to preserue himselfe being the Prophete of God from the Kings vniust violence and from the hastie furie of the cruell murtherer whome the King sent to kill him without all lawe iustice or reason onely vpon the suddain passion of his outrage As for the Prophete he had especiall warrant by Gods especial reucaling so to bidde them and therefore the Prophete bid nothing amisse herein Yea he knewe well inough that althoughe he resisted the Kings messanger yet he resisted not the King but euen therein obeyed the King and did that he would haue had him
the people ignorant least they should discerne them And ye haue sayd of your hypocritiall errours of your â—…ayned myracles and legends of lies latebunt quam diu pâ—…rerunt vâ—…lebunt apud â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mendaciâ—… The ignorant people will ostéeme such lying to â—…es And therfore we may well returne your conclusion on your selfe that ye be those false Prophets and lying masters such as Saint Peter spake of bringing in wicked and damnable sects God giue them grace which are deceyued by you so well to knowe you as we that do examine your writings haue good cause to know you And thus your wordes of course fathered as ye call it in a luskie lane of some indiuiduum vagum a certaine Protestant of late dayes and for witnesse hereof aske your fellow if it be not so howe well in euery poynt they appeare that as they say the foxe was the first finder to be your owne tootoo open sayinges and doynges to charge vs withall a Gods name hardily let all the worlde be iudge His obiecting of stragling from the matter fo 4. a. Of false alleaging his Authours wordes fol. 5. b. Of omitting and concealing circumstances fol. 7. a. Of deepe silence to aunswere the pith of the matter fol. 8. a. Of obiecting fleshly pleasures fol. 8. b. Of quarelling that our Bishops be no Bishops fol. 9. a. b. Of passing good maners for misreporâ—…ing n. a. Of obiecting conspiracies and sedition fol. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. Remoue them with a writte of returne to the Papists themselues and then they are fully answered This lo at the least sayth M. St. fol. 37. b. heresie worketh in the Church that it maketh the truth to be more certenly knowne and more firmely and stedfastly afterwarde kept so sayth S. Augustine the matter of the Trinitie was neuer well discussed till the Arrians barked agaynst it c. This is truer M. St. than eyther ye wene or would The experience whereof is dayly to be séene in the Papists defending their errors and impugning the truth in their subtile practises in their tyrannicall inquisitions and cruel torments yea euen in this yours and your fellowes volumes striuing to obscure and deface the truth but all these steps notwithstanding the truth is and shal be more and more set forth the Popish errors â—…sse and lesse begutle vs and the kingdome of Antichrist detected and forsaken Fol. 40. a. M. St. telleth vs that S. Greg. Nazianzen saith Verum est ê™ vnum est mendaciuÌ„ auteÌ„ est multiplex The thing which is true is alwayes one like vnto it selfe whereas the lie the cloked and counterfeyt thing is in it selfe variable and diuerse By the which rule here giuen of so learned and graue a father I am here put to knowledge that the Papists not being content with the onely worde of God alwayes one and like it selfe but ioyning thereto mens variable and diuerse vnwritten verities That the Papistes being not content with the true spirituall worship of one God alwayes one like himselfe not with one mediator Iesus Christ but yéelding spirituall worship to Saints and Saints pictures besides God and making other variable and diuerse mediators to God besides Christ that the Papists being not content with the only merites satisfaction of Christs death always one and like itselfe â–ª but deuising variable and diuerse Masses Diriges Pilgrimages and satisfactions besides being not content with the flat scripture alwayes one and like it selfe that testifieth only faith in christ to be the meanes of appreheÌ„ding our iustification but adding variable diuerse infinit workâ—… of their own to deserue their iustification by being not content with the only title profession of Christianitie alwayes one 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 but sâ—…tting vp variable diuerse feas professioÌ„s religions names besides be but cloked counterleyy liers â–ª as Greg Nazâ—…n hath most truly said And thus ye sée M. St. how you citing falsly this sentence to proue the â—…variable 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your selfe on â–ª the thumbes Fol. 40. b. Let the King sayth master Stapleton reode on Gods name not onely that booke but all the Bible beside it is a worthie studie for him but let him beware least this sweete honie be not turned into poyson to him c. What wordes are here that we say not also yea his permission of Princes to read and studie the Bible â–ª is our most earnest prayer and exhortation And they whatsoeuer they would seeme nowe to pretende bicause they can no longer keepe it vnder their bushell it is full sore agaynst their heart that Princes should read or studie it Otherwise why suffred they not Princes to giue them selues to so woorthie and commendable a studie heretofore And nowe that they can kéepe it in no longer who it is that turneth this sweete honie of Gods worde into poyson is easie to iudge Whether hée that giueth bread to the hungrie bringing forth the whole loafe of the onely pure wheate and willeth them that are to be fedde therewith to sée to view to féelâ—… the whole and in seasonable time breaketh it to his fellow seruants before their faces that they may fully refresh their hungrie seules or he that beateth his fellowe seruaunts hydeth the loafe from them and if he must néedes giue them some mingleth the pure wheate with his owne branne and that worse is with Darnell and more of that by thrée halues than of the wheate and will néedes haue the receyuer blindfolded nor will suffer him to take it in his owne handes but by gobbet meale thrust it into his mouth nor will let the partie sée what in this sort he crammes him with as though he were worse than the Capon in a coupe and yet for all this will beare him in hande it is the true bread Whether of these twaine be the likelier to giue this poysoned bread no man that hath any witte but will giue a shrewde ayme As for false translations false dangerous and damnable gloses wherewith master St. sayth we haue corrupted and watred the same and made it as it were of pleasant wine most soure vinegar it is so euident on his owne part that the Papistes haue so vsed the Scripture and that so shamefully that it séemeth he is past shame that he dare once mencion it and yet he obiecteth it to vs that admit the expresse scripture without any gloses at all Take heede to your selfe Maister Horne for I say to you that you and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion manie and detestable heresies and so withall playne idolatrie Blot out these wordes Maister Horne and put in Maister Stapleton and then it is truely sayd Although wée not only say it but proue it also And therfore you and your felowes M. Stapleton had nede to take hede thereto fol 42. a. VVe say you are wicked deprauers of religion c. VVe say ye are as great enimies as euer the Church of Christ had
nâ—…n at Louaine that ye would be thought no hedgeâ—…réeper â–ª nor â—…uedropper as sâ—… of your broode are peaking here in lusâ—…y lanes and lurking in corners and yet they court theÌ„ selues no more Donatistes than you NotwithstaÌ„ding it appeareth for all your crakes bragges ye haue not that stout courage fâ—…r your raâ—…se but that ye like Louaine better than M. 〈◊〉 â—…ging and had rather blow your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 lâ—…ytorer in a lusky lane or hide your head 〈◊〉 the corner of an old â—…otten barne rather than warme your selfe with a â—…aggot aâ—… a â—…ake in Smithfielde suche as was the crueltie of your Popish tyrannie to those that constantly abode the terrible brunt therof And although other giuing place to your furie either of their owne infirmitie or that God preserued them to a better oportunitie did then flée or hide them selues what dyd they héerein that Chryst gaue them not licence example and commaundement so to do Ye might aswell obiect this to those Saincts of God of whome S. Paule telleth that they wente about in the wildernesse of whome the worlde was vnworthy Why say ye not Elias lurked in lusky lanes when he sted the face of Iesabell Why say ye not that Athanasius crepte into corners when he hidde him selfe seueÌ„ yeres in a Cesterne an harder harborough than a rotten barne For shame M. Stap. learne to make a difference betwéene the perfecution and the cause of it or else this were an easie argument to make all Donatistes yea your selues also And would to God all corners rotten barnes and luskie lanes were wel ransacked some luskes I think would appeare in their likenesse whom ye would be loth should be founde out M. Stapleton Thirdly ye say The donatistes when they could not iustifie their owne doctrine nor disproue the Catholikes doctrine leauing the doctrine fell to rayling agaynst the vitious life of the Catholikes In this poynt who be Donatistes I referre me to Luthers and Caluines bookes especially to M. Iewell and to your owne Apologie Ye nâ—…ede not M. Stap. referre your selfe so farre referre your selfe to your selfe a Gods name yea go no further than this your Counterblast I warrant ye you blow such a blast héerein that ye maye well encounter master D. Harding master D. Saâ—…ders M. Dorman M. Marshall or any other of your writers thoughe they haue all godly giftes in this poynt yet this your Rhel horicall grace of rayling goeth so farre beyonde them all that they are scarse worthy to cary the wispe after you M. Stap. Onely at this I maruell that like the wiseman when he tolde how many were in the companie he neuer reckoned him selfe that you hauing so pregnant a vayne héerein do still forget your selfe But belike it is for this cause that as ye surmount all your companie so ye goe beyonde the Donatistes also who as ye saye rayled onely agaynst the vitious lyues But you where ye finde no vitious life to rayle agaynst the Protestantes fall to slaundering and reuiling euen their godly and vertuous liues Fourthly ye say The Donatistes refused the opeÌ„ knowne catholike Churche and sayde the Church remayned onely in those that were of their side in certaine corners of Afrike And sing not you the like song preferring your Geneua VVittenberge before the whole Churche beside The Donatistes as you say M. St. tied the Churche to Affrike and wrested the scripture for it forsaking the open knowne catholike Church in déede But you shoulde haue proued your popish Church to be that open knowne catholike Church now which they refused then If ye saye you proue that bicause they refused the church of Rome then your church is the church of Rome now if ye vnderstaÌ„d the church for the coÌ„gregation of the faythful ye vtter a double vntruth For they-refused not only the coÌ„gregation then at Rome but of al the world besides and agayne your church or congregation of Rome now is nothing the same or lyke the same in religion that it was then If ye meane by the church of Rome the Citie of Rome and the Popes chayre there then ye proue your selues to be Donatistes that tye the churche of Christ dispersed euery where to the seate of Rome as they did vnto Aphrike And if ye meane by the open knowne catholike Churche the multitude of people acknowledging your Popes sâ—…ate at Rome then agayne are ye Donatists by your second poynt in craking of multitude depending on Rome a corner in Italie as ye saye the Donatistes craked of their multitude depeÌ„ding on their corners in Affrike As for vs we depende neither vpon Geneua nor VVittenberge nor tye the Church of Christ vnto them nor preferre them either before the whole catholike church or any parte thereof nor referre men vnto them for the triall of the Church or to any other place else but allow them and all and singuler other places where the worde of God is sincerely set fooâ—…th where Idolatrie errours superstition are abolished We 〈◊〉 to the mountaynes as Chrysostome expoundeth it Quâ—… sunt Christiani conferant se ad scripturaâ—… They that are ChristiaÌ„s let them get them to the scriptures And why not to Rome Ierusalem and suche other mountaynes but onely to the scriptures Bicause saith he since that heresie hath possessed the Churches there caÌ„ be no triall of true christianitie nor refuge of Christians that would trie out the truthe of fayth but the deuine scriptures Before it coulde haue bene knowne diuers wayes whiche was the Church which was Gentilitie But nowe there is none other wayes to know which is in deede the very church of Christ but all onely by the Scriptures If they therefore set foorthe the Scriptures we acknowledge them to be of the Church of christ Let Rome doe this and we will as gladly acknowledge Rome to be of the Churche of Chryst as either Wittenberge or Genâ—…ua â–ª Yea as S Hierome sayth which is also put in the Popes owne decrées Eugâ—…bium Constantinople Rhegium Alexandrie Thebes Guarmatia or any other place if it professe the truthe with Geneua and Wittenberge For on this consideration sayth S. Augustine the Churche is holy and catholike not bicause it dependeth on Rome or any other place nor of any multitude obedient to Rome bothe whiche are Donatisticall but quia recte credit in DeuÌ„ bicause it beleeueth rightly on God. This is our song M. Stap. of Geneua VVittenberge Affrica yea and of Rome too And if you can sing any better note I giue you good leaue for me onely I would wish you howsoeuer ye sing to leaue your flat lying tune in saying Fifthly say you The Donatistes corrupted the fathers bookes wonderfully and were so impudent in alleaging them that in their publique conference at Carthage they pressed muche vpon Optatus wordes and layde him foorth as an author making for theÌ„ who yet wrote expresly against them and in all
vvere in times past the Leuitical priests yea rather sith the Apostle treating of the Ministers of the nevve Testament conferring them with the olde Leuites sayth that they ministred death and the letter that killed but these minister the spirit which quickneth and righteousnesse and therfore the ministers of the nevve Testament are more vvorthie than the olde Leuites vvhat maner of king shal vve thinke him to bee vvhiche contemning the ministers of the nevve Testamente calleth himselfe the supreme head of his Christian kingdome and that immediatly vnder Christ This comparison Maister Saunders of the ministers of the olde and nevve Testament rightly vnderstood wée acknowledge The nevve is more vvorthy than the olde but the vvorthinesse and glory of the nevv ministration that saint Paule speakes on is spirituall and not outvvard glory For although the ministers of the olde Testament had outwarde glory and some of them by especiall calling had the visible supreme and ciuill gouernement although seldome yet the ministers of the nue testament are by Christ as your owne selfe haue confessed flatly forbidden it Vos autem non sic but you shall not be so And therefore where ye woulde haue them of no lesse dignitie meaning of outvvard glory and gouernment or else your example holdes not they are of farre lesse dignitie therein notwithstanding in a spirituall and invvarde glory they are againe of a farre greater dignitie than the olde Which spirituall dignitie if any King shoulde contemne you might then well demaunde vvhat maner of king he were and we woulde answere you hée were a wicked King but as these are two distinct dignities the spirituall dignitie of the minister and the visible supremacie of the King so may they be and are with vs well and godly vsed both of them Where both the Prince hath the outward dignitie of supreme head or gouernour vnder Christ and yet the ministers spirituall dignitie is not onely no whit contemned but hath his honor yelded due vnto him And therefore we denie not that which followeth For if he acknowledge not the Ministers of Christe ouer him he can not be blessed of them VVherevpon neither can he be pertaker of the sanctifying spirite whose ministers they are We graunt Maister Saunders that the Prince humbly receiueth their blessing and is partaker of the holy spirite of God whose ministers they are in these actions Wherein the Prince acknowledgeth them to represent God and is vnder them But what hindreth this that in other respectes they againe are vnder him and he their supreme gouernour but Maister Saunders procéedeth saying Dauid cryeth and nowe ye kings vnderstande and be ye learned ye that iudge the earth apprehend discipline least the Lorde waxe wroth and ye perishe oute of the right waye But if kings must be learned then so farre forth they must be vnder For he that is learned is learned of some maister and is scholler to him of whome he is learned the disciple is not aboue his maister but in that thing that he learneth of his maister of necessitie he is inferior That kings ought to be learned we gladly confesse and are glad that you confesse it althoughe againste your wylls for ye would rather haue them altogither vnlearned whom ye haue so long detained in blindnesse But why woulde ye haue them nowe learned forsothe bicause you would onely be their maisters and so they shoulde be still your vnderlings not onely in learning suche ill lessons as you woulde teache them but vnder pretence of teachers to be their gouernours too True it is in that the teacher teacheth he is aboue and in that the learner learneth he is vnder â—…ut the teacher is not aboue nor the learner vnder in other things Thoughe Moyses learned of Iethro yet in gouernement Moyses was aboue him Thoughe Dauid learned of Nathan yet in gouernement he was aboue him Thoughe Ozias learned of Iudith yet in gouernement he was aboue hir And so all princes that are taughte of their schole maisters their scholemaister maye be the better in learning but he is the worser in authoritie And thoughe he be the maister in knowledge yet he makes euen his knowledge wherby he is maister to serue the Prince also Yea although the Prince be not his maister in learning yet in all causes of learning the Prince hath a generall supreme gouernement to sée by his lawes euery kinde of learning maintayned in his order to forbid naughtie artes to be learned to appoint such suche an order methode to be taught or learned as learned men enforme him is good and easie to the attaining of learning to appaynt scholes and learned scholemaisters for learning and to giue them lawes statutes and stipendes for the maintenance of learning all this may the Prince doe by his supreme authoritie ouer all learned persons and in all causes of learning althoughe he himselfe be altogether vnlearned and can not one letter on the booke Althoughe woulde to God all Princes were learned not as the Papistes woulde haue them but as Dauid was and exhorteth all Princes to bée And thus as thys sentence makes nothing in the worlde for him so hys example thereon makes verye muche againste him But for all thys argumente be thus simple he wyll loâ—…de vs with further proues saying Sithe therefore it is sayde to the Apostles Go teache ye all nations and sith vnder the names of nations the kings of them are comprehended and Byshops and Priests haue succeeded the Apostles in the office of teaching truely in the offyce of teachyng the Byshoppe is greater than his king so farre is it off that the king can be the Bishops hed in all things causes VVhich title notwithstanding is not onely of these men giuen to a king but also by publique decree of late in Englande giuâ—…n vnto a Queene To reason froÌ„ teaching to gouerning is no good teaching M. SauÌ„ders If ye teach this doctrine theÌ„ your Pope should haue little gouernment for God wot he teacheth little being often times vnlearned and alwayes to proud to teache If ye say he teacheth by others so caÌ„ a prince too And though he could himselfe teache and would also teach the truth and not suppresse it yet sith ye say he succedes the Apostles but in the office of teaching he is no furder superior than he teacheth by your owne reckoning Neither would this superioritie be denyed him of any that he ought to teache if he in dâ—…de succeded the Apostles But if the succession of the Apostles consist in teaching as here ye confesse then hath not the Pope to crake muche of succeeding Peter and Paule that teacheth not as Peter and Paule did as woulde to God he did and all priests or Bishops else Whiche if they did and taught truely this woulde augment and not diminishe the Princes supreme authoritie yea and the Quéenes too Maister Saunders for in gouernement before ye